will the mavs ever recover from the kid trade?

[15 RINGS BITCH]

werent they in 1st or 2nd place last year when they pulled that brilliant move?

remember when they didnt start choking till the playoffs?

[Shank]

Sweet thread. Highly insightful and relevant.

Who is kid?

[it's me]

hell no..... hahahaha

[Shank]

You both managed to survive botched abortions. So, anything is possible. Especially if you dream with your heart.

[sribb43]

At least get the guys fuckin' name right if your going to start a thread

[Ghazi]

The Kidd trade in hindsight was a mistake, but it doesn't explain the regression of the Mavs entirely.

I think we miss the J-Ho who got his points off hustle rather than stepback bullshit jumpers.

Stack's scoring and legs are missed as well.

Can't believe we gave up Quis for a white guy who doesnt play for us anymore.

All of this plus the fact that every franchise has a peak and then begins declined. Our peak was 2-3 years ago it seemed, and we've been declining ever since... it just happens really, although we seem to have expedited it with front office blunders.

FWIW, the Mavs were 6th at the time of the Kidd trade, although they were 1st when Devin got injured. But that was by an insignificant margin.

[Ditty]

thank you mavs for the trade just another team out of our way:clap:clap

[Shank]

Fucking timewarp in here.

[Pelicans78]

I do not believe this group of Mavs will recover from the trade. I don't see you can recover from such a one-sided trade. Harris did get owned tonight by CP3, but Kidd has been getting owned the last two seasons and will never stop it from happening. At least Harris is still young and playing well now.

[Shank]

Look! A dead horse! Someone beat the shit out of it!

[ElNono]

It's the coach, stupid! Carslile just walked into that clusterfuck of a locker room, who recently got another coach fired, and thought he would play buddy buddy with the players. He thought he could talk JHo into giving a shit, that everyone was going to fall in line, etc. The reality is that now that dictator Avery is gone, players don't wanna play D, JHo still wants his own team, Stackhouse dogged on him as soon as he fell out of the rotation, he trusted the new guys then sat them out for the same old vets, killing that trust.
It's no surprise that succesfull coaches are assholes in general (Pop, Phil, Sloan, Larry Brown, Pat Riley).
I don't think the Carslile method has worked, and when he comes out talking 'We like our team' and that he has a process, then his team gets raped for 133 when one of the best players in the opposing team is not even playing, you sure look like an idiot, both to the public in general and to those few players that still care (Dirk, JET).

[Ghazi]

In fairness to Carlisle the Mavs regression in defense occured last year as well.

I dunno if its a matter of effort or roster regarding the defense, I think it's a mixture. Look at the Mavs roster, are they capable of being an elite defensive team? I'd say so, although we were 5th in the league in 2007.

But 133 points.... that's just inexcusable... and it isn't the first time this year the teams had a porous defensive performance. This was probably the worst, giving up 121 to NJ was bad as well.

[ElNono]

They stopped trying. And to be honest, I'm betting the players got mad at Avery for yelling at them because they were regressing. You can complain as much as you want about Avery, and some rightly so, but he made them play defense and if somebody didn't they knew they would have to respond to him after the game. The Bucks shot great tonight, but 133 points is inexcusable. Giving up a 12 point lead in a matter of minutes in Philly is inexcusable, even if Dirk made that buzzer beater. Giving 120+ to NJ is inexcusable. You know, when we had our asses handed to us by Philly last week, the first thing Pop said was 'Our defense is terrible, we need to do something about it'. And we played better D since then. I only hear 'We like our team a lot' and 'Rebounding defensively' from Carslile. It takes more than rebounding to play D. It takes discipline and being on player's asses constantly because they just love to score, not defend. I'm sorry, bit I just don't see it happening with Carslile.

[baseline bum]

FWIW, the Mavs were 6th at the time of the Kidd trade, although they were 1st when Devin got injured. But that was by an insignificant margin.

Didn't they have a very good record against contenders before that trade?

[Ghazi]

^ yes.

1-0 v Lakers (before Gasol trade though, Bynum was out)
0-1 v Celtics (no Devin)
1-1 v Pistons (no Devin in loss)
1-1 v Suns (no Devin in loss)
1-1 v Spurs
1-1 v Hornets
3-0 v Rockets
1-1 v Jazz

[Findog]

Mavs have had a lot of games this year where they just haven't competed. Not saying they should've won those games, but @ Milwaukee, @ New Jersey, @ Phoenix...games where they just got curbstomped. That never happened back in 05-07 era.

[Ghazi]

^ this didn't even happen LAST year.

[Findog]

The Mavs have some really hard choices to make. They're not as bad as KG's final days in Minnesota, but they're stuck. They don't have the pieces and assets to trade their way into the LA, Cleveland, Boston and Orlando club...and as long as Dirk is in his prime, they're not going to be terrible.

They basically have three choices. They can continue to tweak, but surely even Mark and Donnie have to realize that this core is at the point of diminishing returns. The NBA is governed by cycles, and they last 3-4 years. Even if you're successful like the Spurs have been, if you keep the same personnel in place year after year, you become easier to scout and gameplan for. The Mavs have had the same core in place for the last cycle, and at this point there are no more surprises with this team. Other clubs know what they're going to get from the Mavs, and I have to believe that the players themselves are probably tired of having that burden on them (win a championship when they are clearly trying to go back up a hill with a boulder on their shoulders.)

They can completely blow it up and trade Dirk, but that pretty much means forget about the playoffs and winning anything for the next 3-4 years. It would take 1-2 years to bottom out and then another 1-2 to get it moving in the right direction...and that's assuming you make good draft choices and other personnel moves. Even if they wanted to go in this direction, they gave their 2010 pick to NJ. What incentive is there to suck next year and go into the lottery when you don't own your pick?

The only other option is try building a whole new core around Dirk and making everybody else on the roster available in a trade.

[Ghazi]

Is there even a recent example though, of a team going from elite to mediocre to elite while keeping the same player? The only one htat comes to mind is the Lakers, but that was w/ the giftwrapped Gasol and Ariza trades.

So the last scenario seems like pipedreams/wishful thinking, I just don't see us getting lucky in 2010, and that would be the only way to retool around Dirk.

[monosylab1k]

So the last scenario seems like pipedreams/wishful thinking, I just don't see us getting lucky in 2010, and that would be the only way to retool around Dirk.

Even if they strike out on the 2010 sweepstakes, who cares? Are they in any worse shape than they are right now? They aren't winning a title tinkering, they aren't winning a title blowing it up.

Going to bat for 2010 is the only possible option for a championship in the Dirk era. So Cuban can either try like hell for 2010, let Dirk waste away for the rest of his career in Dallas, or let him win a title wearing someone else's uniform.

[Ghazi]

I guess that makes sense, oh how frustrating though... to endure 1.5 more years of mediocre basketball and then bank on a superstar actually wanting to sign in Dallas.

OH how I weep! :(

[Ghazi]

I don't think the FO would actually go as far as to trade Kidd, Howard, and Terry though... which is lame considering if Kidd is not traded he will wallk and will have been a wasted asset that we gave up alot of assets for.

Bleh, I D K

[Findog]

Even if they strike out on the 2010 sweepstakes, who cares? Are they in any worse shape than they are right now? They aren't winning a title tinkering, they aren't winning a title blowing it up.

Going to bat for 2010 is the only possible option for a championship in the Dirk era. So Cuban can either try like hell for 2010, let Dirk waste away for the rest of his career in Dallas, or let him win a title wearing someone else's uniform.

So keep Dirk in place and shed as much salary as possible in the meantime? Under these circumstances I would welcome a Marion for Howard trade, if that's the purpose...as opposed to thinking that anything will be solved on the court by bringing in the Matrix.

[Findog]

Realistically, who is going to come here in 2010? Or will it be a S'n'T that gets a player here? I don't think any of the difference-makers will sign here....MAAAYBE Bosh, and that's still wishful thinking.

[Findog]

And is Bosh really a difference maker? Does Bosh and Dirk together strike you as anything other than a trip to the Conference Finals, max?

[monosylab1k]

Realistically, who is going to come here in 2010? Or will it be a S'n'T that gets a player here? I don't think any of the difference-makers will sign here....MAAAYBE Bosh, and that's still wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking is all we've got.

[Ghazi]

^ yeah, youre probably right.

But then again, who IS a difference maker? I'm of the opinion that were about to enter the Lebron era, dude's winning multiple titles no matter what. Jordan era... Hakeem... Jordan again... Duncan... now Lebron. It's just the way the NBA works, except for recent even years like the 04 Pistons, 06 Cheat, and 08 Celtics.

Anything short of Wade perhaps probably wouldn't be enough. Amare, Bosh, Johnson good players... wouldn't guarantee anything though, would atleast make for entertaining ball.

So really it's gonna be difficult for the Mavs to win a championship in the next few years, we need to either piece together an ensamble or find a once in an era player (unlikely).

[monosylab1k]

Realistically, who is going to come here in 2010?

Cuban, Donnie, & Carlisle all say everybody in the league loves Dallas and lots of guys want to come here. We'll see for sure if they're telling the truth or just blowing it out their asses.

[monosylab1k]

Bosh + Dirk + a good young supporting cast could do something.

Let's say Gerald Green finally gets it together. Let's say we trade with Portland for a Nicolas Batum or Sergio Rodriguez. We strike gold with this year's draft pick. We finally do something worthwhile with our MLE. We get a lot of great pieces around Dirk & Bosh and we've got a damn good shot at it.

But I'm really not all that high on Bosh. LeBron ain't coming here, but Wade or Joe Johnson are slightly more realistic options. If we get Wade & Dirk & the right combination of role players, that's an even better shot.

It's all a pipe dream, but it's the only thing worth being optimistic about in Mavs land.

[Ghazi]

D-Whistle/Dirk would be pretty sick. Dirk would be the Robin and I think he'd thrive in that role.

Not sure if Dirk is really a Robin alongside Bosh though.

Pipedreams are a good distraction for the current brand of mediocrity :)

[ClingingMars]

how weird would it be to see DWade in a Mavs uni :lol

-Mars

[Findog]

Bosh + Dirk + a good young supporting cast could do something.

Let's say Gerald Green finally gets it together. Let's say we trade with Portland for a Nicolas Batum or Sergio Rodriguez. We strike gold with this year's draft pick. We finally do something worthwhile with our MLE. We get a lot of great pieces around Dirk & Bosh and we've got a damn good shot at it.

But I'm really not all that high on Bosh. LeBron ain't coming here, but Wade or Joe Johnson are slightly more realistic options. If we get Wade & Dirk & the right combination of role players, that's an even better shot.

It's all a pipe dream, but it's the only thing worth being optimistic about in Mavs land.

I keep hearing this Wade to Dallas talk. I would love me some of that, but I don't see it:

1) I think there is lingering bad blood between Wade and Dirk. Dirk made some boilerplate remarks about "We didn't play our best and lost" and Wade took that as a shot at him and said Dirk isn't a leader, he's the reason they lost, etc. At the next All-Star game, they were they only starters that didn't greet or acknowledge each other.

2) FAs love Miami. I'm sure Wade loves Miami. The Heat are kind of in the same boat as Dallas, in that they have a good but far from great team around him. I'm sure the Heat and their fans are talking about 2010 as an opportunity to get Wade some help.

3) Heat can't be outbid due to the CBA, and 95% of the time a guy goes to the highest bidder, regardless of what the situation is (see Maggette and Baron Davis last summer. They took more money and security while walking into crappy situations)

[Brickhouse]

"You can quote me on this,'' Mavs owner Mark Cuban said on Wednesday. "I'm not trading Josh Howard.''http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1258

Of course that could mean he's trading JHo tomorrow for a 36 year old small forward, but the teams reliance on JHo becoming the player he never was in the first place and not willing to part with him unless in a "no -brainer" deal is why I see the Mavs staying the same this season.

The major problem right now is they have no fucking direction...do they want to win now with Dirk or rebuild, right now, it's like wavering around, waiting for some Gasol-like trade that everyone in the league knows they're incapable of pulling off while also twiddling their thumbs thinking every FA is wetting their pants to play with a 32 year old Dirk and a bunch of D-leaguers in 2010.

[Indazone]

I'm thinking the Mavs demise is mostly mental and you have locker room cancer. Some of the players got to go. J-Ho for starters. Carlisle is not a bad coach.

[Findog]

Maybe the Mavs should try to do something for 2009 summer instead, a S'n'T perhaps. Everybody talks about 2010, but that may end up being anticlimactic. A bet a lot of those guys sign extensions early with their teams and never reach free agency. The CBA rules are set up to make it easier for teams to retain their players...if you're happy with the direction your team is going and they can outbid anybody else, what's the point of even becoming a FA?

A Marion for Howard swap would be great for clearing space this summer. Between the two of them, Kidd and Marion have expirings worth $37 million. How bout Josh and filler to Portland for Raef's contract? Josh would be a great fit on that Portland team.