Board to vote on evolution teaching

[Blake]

Web Posted: 1/21/09 11:39 CST

by Gary Scharrer - Express News

AUSTIN — Science and religion collide today when the State Board of Education takes a preliminary vote on curriculum standards that could affect the teaching of evolution in Texas public schools for the next decade.

The argument hinges on a single word: weaknesses.

A panel of science experts has recommended that teachers no longer be required to present the “strengths and weaknesses” of various theories, including evolution.

Instead, the proposed science curriculum standards would encourage students to use critical thinking, scientific reasoning and problem solving to analyze and evaluate scientific explanations.

Some parents and experts insist the “weaknesses” of scientific theory  be taught as a matter of academic freedom, scientific inquiry and a search for truth.

Others contend the “weaknesses” provision simply is a backdoor attempt to legitimize “creationism” or “intelligent design” — a concept that an intelligent being is responsible for the complex structure of biology rather than chance or undirected natural processes.

“Science education that does not encourage students to evaluate competing scientific arguments is not teaching students about the way science actually operates,” said Stephen Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute.

The Seattle-based institute opposes evolution and promotes intelligent design.

Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, an Austin-based group that supports public education, religious freedom and individual liberties, countered that “strengths and weaknesses are the cultural code words for undermining evolution and promoting creationism.”

Miller said the “strengths and weaknesses” standard is a test balloon for a new political strategy to overcome court rulings banning the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

A narrow board vote is expected, with social conservatives intent on keeping the existing “strengths and weaknesses” language in the science curriculum standards.

The board didn’t debate the issue Wednesday, but is expected to do so today.

Board member Barbara Cargill, R-The Woodlands, said she’s “waiting for an example of where creation or intelligent design has been forced on teachers.”

San Antonio parent Angela Weissgarber told the board that students should be able to question theories such as evolution, and that the absence of the “weaknesses” provision would chill the learning environment.

“All high school science classes should provide an environment that encourages our students to question and inquire instead of promoting silence and intimidation without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind,” she said.

David Muralt, an Austin-based civil engineer, told the board there is no factual scientific proof that complex life came from disorder and chance.

“Teaching students that they evolved and are nothing more than animals, degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life,” Muralt said. “The fruits of this God-denying teaching are lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement.”

The board’s policy on science curriculum standards will influence new science textbooks and “creation-inspired nonsense” would disadvantage Texas students, Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, told the board.

She predicted publishers would have to produce a Texas edition for science textbooks.

“They will (include) any kind of nonsense that you want in it,” Scott said. “The classroom is no place to fight the cultural wars.”

Ronald Wetherington, Southern Methodist University anthropology professor, told the board that the alleged weaknesses of evolution have been debunked.

He said Texas schoolchildren “will be exposed to false knowledge” by keeping the “strengths and weaknesses” standard in new science books.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/Ed_board_to_vote_today_on_teaching_of_evolution.ht ml

[BacktoBasics]

and there it is. Here is the fundamental problem in all of this.


“Teaching students that they evolved and are nothing more than animals, degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life,” Muralt said. “The fruits of this God-denying teaching are lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement.”

Have to have meaning right. Have to have purpose right. Always having to use god as a crutch for our shortcomings rather than to rely on oneself for ones own actions.

[DarkReign]

*yawn*

ID gets KOed in the 1st.

Book it.

[Blake]

*yawn*

ID gets KOed in the 1st.

Book it.

I dunno. I think there are still a few staunch conservatives on this board.

maybe the 3rd.

[peewee's lovechild]

A "Texas Edition" for science textbooks?

Should we also have a "Texas Edition" history textbook where it claims that the Civil War happened because the "North" was jealous of the "South"?

This is just pure stupidity.

[MiamiHeat]

should i begin my rant on how religion needs to be destroyed so humanity can move on and grow?

nah, this crab dinner is delicious.

[Blake]

nah, this crab dinner is delicious.

lemme guess......."Amen-Ra is great, Amen-Ra is good......let us thank him for our food......Amen"

[peewee's lovechild]

should i begin my rant on how religion needs to be destroyed so humanity can move on and grow?

nah, this crab dinner is delicious.

Religion must be abolished if we are to progress as human beings.

[baseline bum]

“Science education that does not encourage students to evaluate competing scientific arguments is not teaching students about the way science actually operates,” said Stephen Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute.


A huge lie. Science education that does not encourage students to evaluate competing hypothesis by rigorous standards and skepticism is not teaching students about the way science actually operates. Unless he wants the curriculum to include rigorous debunking of intelligent design as something non-scientific, ID has no place in biology classrooms.



Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, an Austin-based group that supports public education, religious freedom and individual liberties, countered that “strengths and weaknesses are the cultural code words for undermining evolution and promoting creationism.”


Bingo. Paint evolution as speculation and faith to drag it down to the same level.




David Muralt, an Austin-based civil engineer, told the board there is no factual scientific proof that complex life came from disorder and chance.


Unconscionable strawman. Natural selection is a game of dice only when you look at it from a few inches above ground. Look at it from 1000 feet above and it's very ordered; beneficial adaptations win out. Also, order from disorder on our planet is powered by the energy from our sun and from our planet's molten core, so his unconscious application of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect.



“Teaching students that they evolved and are nothing more than animals, degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life,” Muralt said.


Another strawman. Non-belief = nihlism? Garbage. I like to hike mountains, go to the beach, meet people, study a math book, have a nice steak, etc. Happiness is a pretty good purpose in life.



“The fruits of this God-denying teaching are lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement.”


The fruits of rigorous application of the scientific method are having amazing technology at our fingertips. To borrow an argument from physicist Walter Lewin, today we live in an incredible age; for a lousy couple hundred bucks a month we have the equivalent of 100 slaves working like dogs for us 12 hours a day, without any time off.



The board’s policy on science curriculum standards will influence new science textbooks and “creation-inspired nonsense” would disadvantage Texas students, Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, told the board.


If you tell an impressionable child what he's learning is nonsense, he'll buy into it. Everyone likes to complain about how our nation isn't producing great engineers in large numbers like India or China without thinking why that may be; perhaps it's our peoples' indifference to education fueling this.



She predicted publishers would have to produce a Texas edition for science textbooks.


Sadly, this will probably be the case.

[Ginobilly]

A huge lie. Science education that does not encourage students to evaluate competing hypothesis by rigorous standards and skepticism is not teaching students about the way science actually operates. Unless he wants the curriculum to include rigorous debunking of intelligent design as something non-scientific, ID has no place in biology classrooms.



Bingo. Paint evolution as speculation and faith to drag it down to the same level.




Unconscionable strawman. Natural selection is a game of dice only when you look at it from a few inches above ground. Look at it from 1000 feet above and it's very ordered; beneficial adaptations win out. Also, order from disorder on our planet is powered by the energy from our sun and from our planet's molten core, so his unconscious application of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect.



Another strawman. Non-belief = nihlism? Garbage. I like to hike mountains, go to the beach, meet people, study a math book, have a nice steak, etc. Happiness is a pretty good purpose in life.



The fruits of rigorous application of the scientific method are having amazing technology at our fingertips. To borrow an argument from physicist Walter Lewin, today we live in an incredible age; for a lousy couple hundred bucks a month we have the equivalent of 100 slaves working like dogs for us 12 hours a day, without any time off.



If you tell an impressionable child what he's learning is nonsense, he'll buy into it. Everyone likes to complain about how our nation isn't producing great engineers in large numbers like India or China without thinking why that may be; perhaps it's our peoples' indifference to education fueling this.



Sadly, this will probably be the case.

I wish they would keep them separate, but I think the merger between science and ID is inevitable. When machines become self aware in about 100-200 years , will they say they are here by chance or by the intelligent design of some being? The final breakthrough will be when somebody unites General Relativity and String M/ theory, which in theory will explain physical Reality throughout the cosmos including consciousness.

[MiamiHeat]

I wish they would keep them separate, but I think the merger between science and ID is inevitable. When machines become self aware in about 100-200 years , will they say they are here by chance or by the intelligent design of some being? The final breakthrough will be when somebody unites General Relativity and String M/ theory, which in theory will explain physical Reality throughout the cosmos including consciousness.

you do understand that 'consciousness' is nothing more than electrochemical reactions going off in your brain so that you can help trillions of cells survive and reproduce?

it's not some spiritual supernatural thing going on. plants don't have it because they just wait for the sun to shine on them. they don't have to hunt for it. consciousness is a result of an arms race between multicellular organisms, nothing more.

Your comparison of machines-humans is way off. Life on earth is just a plethora of chemicals mingling and 'fighting' with each other. When you were in junior high and you mixed vinegar with baking soda, did you say the mixture is alive? No, it's a chemical reaction. Cells are the same way at it's basic function. They absorb certain things and keep out certain things. Life on earth is basically one huge complicated uncontrolled science experiment with a wonderful energy source. We are lucky to be here. NASA will hopefully find the evidence needed to prove once and for all, that 'life' is a natural occurrence of the universe when certain chemicals come together in the right conditions.

I don't see how you can chalk all of that up as 'intelligent consciousness'

If you want to worship a God, go ahead and worship the Unconquerable Sun. Without it, there would have never been life on earth. Without an energy source, everything is cold and motionless. Just remember, you will be late to the party because people have known about the Sun's importance for a long time. It's worship has been going on for thousands of years.

[baseline bum]

The idea of consciousness and free will is a much bigger can of worms than is ID vs evolution, and would be better served by it's own thread.

[peewee's lovechild]

I wish they would keep them separate, but I think the merger between science and ID is inevitable. When machines become self aware in about 100-200 years , will they say they are here by chance or by the intelligent design of some being? The final breakthrough will be when somebody unites General Relativity and String M/ theory, which in theory will explain physical Reality throughout the cosmos including consciousness.

Eintstein was working on a theory called "The Theory of Everything" before he died.

It was supposed to explain the randomness of quantum physics, but it was supposed to bring both theories together.

Or, that's the way I understood it anyway.

I could be wrong.

[peewee's lovechild]

even the catholic church itself, which took what 81 years to respond to communism, is staying out of this one

That's because they're all too busy molesting little boys.

[MannyIsGod]

I did some reading on this back when they first had hearings in November. I'm fairly certain the ID people are going to win on this, which is just plain sad but they have a long history of playing politics with this board and they have it in a situation now where it favors them.

Sadly, it also means that not only Texas kids are impacted. Texas is a large market for textbooks, and a lot of what Texas wants in its books gets passed onto other states simply because a publisher isn't going to print too many editions of a book when they can just print one.

[BacktoBasics]

Home schooling is looking better and better

[Einstein's Ghost]

Eintstein was working on a theory called "The Theory of Everything" before he died.

It was supposed to explain the randomness of quantum physics, but it was supposed to bring both theories together.

Or, that's the way I understood it anyway.

I could be wrong.

Eh? Sorry, I was taking a nap.

Yes, I am still working on the Theory of Everything. I've got it all worked out except for why some people think UTSA is the shit.

[DarkReign]

Eintstein was working on a theory called "The Theory of Everything" before he died.

It was supposed to explain the randomness of quantum physics, but it was supposed to bring both theories together.

Or, that's the way I understood it anyway.

I could be wrong.

Einstein's idea evolved since his passing. One of his foibles when trying to reach for a theory of everything was his stubborness. For as brilliant as Enstein was, he didnt take criticism or opposing views very kindly. IIRC, didnt he despise quantam mechanics because his theories about gravity and space-time were non-applicable to the "super-micro" world? Something like that, dont quote me.

M-Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory)

...or if you prefer its earlier incarnation, or "sister" theory...

Superstring Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory)

More or less, all of these competing ideas can be classified under the broad title GUTs (Grand Unifying Theories).

None are remotely close, so take them for what they are....still, very interesting and gets extremely talented people thinking waaaay outside the box. Never a bad thing.

[FreeMason]

and there it is. Here is the fundamental problem in all of this.



Have to have meaning right. Have to have purpose right. Always having to use god as a crutch for our shortcomings rather than to rely on oneself for ones own actions.

It works both ways. Some people use God to believe in a higher meaning, therefore living better lives.

There is nothing wrong with that.

American courts are a joke in cases like these. The outcome for cases can already be known just by looking at the judge's political leanings.

[peewee's lovechild]

I did some reading on this back when they first had hearings in November. I'm fairly certain the ID people are going to win on this, which is just plain sad but they have a long history of playing politics with this board and they have it in a situation now where it favors them.

Sadly, it also means that not only Texas kids are impacted. Texas is a large market for textbooks, and a lot of what Texas wants in its books gets passed onto other states simply because a publisher isn't going to print too many editions of a book when they can just print one.

Publisher actually do print specal editions for Texas.

I would get bombarded with samples every year when I was teaching. The school I was working at had "Texas Edition" texts for Math, English, and Reading. I guess they're going to have "Texas Edition" texts for Science as well.

[peewee's lovechild]

Eh? Sorry, I was taking a nap.

Yes, I am still working on the Theory of Everything. I've got it all worked out except for why some people think UTSA is the shit.

:lmao

[Ginobilly]

you do understand that 'consciousness' is nothing more than electrochemical reactions going off in your brain so that you can help trillions of cells survive and reproduce?

it's not some spiritual supernatural thing going on. plants don't have it because they just wait for the sun to shine on them. they don't have to hunt for it. consciousness is a result of an arms race between multicellular organisms, nothing more.

Your comparison of machines-humans is way off. Life on earth is just a plethora of chemicals mingling and 'fighting' with each other. When you were in junior high and you mixed vinegar with baking soda, did you say the mixture is alive? No, it's a chemical reaction. Cells are the same way at it's basic function. They absorb certain things and keep out certain things. Life on earth is basically one huge complicated uncontrolled science experiment with a wonderful energy source. We are lucky to be here. NASA will hopefully find the evidence needed to prove once and for all, that 'life' is a natural occurrence of the universe when certain chemicals come together in the right conditions.

I don't see how you can chalk all of that up as 'intelligent consciousness'

If you want to worship a God, go ahead and worship the Unconquerable Sun. Without it, there would have never been life on earth. Without an energy source, everything is cold and motionless. Just remember, you will be late to the party because people have known about the Sun's importance for a long time. It's worship has been going on for thousands of years.

I don't worship a God, but what do worship is the sense of self righteousness and truth. Yes, I agree with everything you say about chemicals aligning in the right conditions, thus creating life and consciousness. But you have you problem, you need a composer to compose the harmonic song that is life. In my gut feeling: God= Mother nature/Sun/Governor of the laws of physics which allows for our existence. Let put it this way, we are the intelligent design of Atoms. This is not some uncontrolled science experiment, our atoms know exactly what they are doing and I'm perfectly fine with that. Some nights when I look up in the dark sky, I thank mother nature for letting me play in this Arena that is Space time.

[FreeMason]

Damn MiamiHeat, you take the fun out of life.

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

But you have you problem, you need a composer to compose the harmonic song that is life.

What?

[johnsmith.]

I am very curious to know when, or if at all MaimiHeat has ever had sex with actual female. because that goes against everything he preaches.

After all what woman or girl you know is going to give up her body to a person that never says I love you? What woman wold marry a man that has no idea what love means or is incapable of showing it?

That means two things are taking place here, MiamiHeat lives alone in a trailer somewhere jerking off to images he downloads off the www, or else he has a girlfriend who was born without any ears, and is blind so he can just fuck her at will without her ever asking "MiamiHeat don't you love me?"

Because after all MiamiHeat can never tell his Mother,Father ,or anyone else he loves them beacuse that would show he has human emotions that don't mesh with his belief's that we are all just protons atoms and space debris, Only someone who has an understanding of life and why we are here can really love and that would go against his teachings, so in closing....

have fun tonight MiamiHeat jerking off to some images of pixels and kbs on your monitor tonight and remember, it's not sperm your shooting but Elmer's Glue, a product made in a laboratory.

[peewee's lovechild]

After all what woman or girl you know is going to give up her body to a person that never says I love you? What woman wold marry a man that has no idea what love means or is incapable of showing it?


Madonna.

[PuttPutt]

I personally believe in ID, but they should teach both & let the student decide which to believe. Make everyone happy in this politically correct world we live in today.

[ALVAREZ6]

“Teaching students that they evolved and are nothing more than animals, degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life,” Muralt said. “The fruits of this God-denying teaching are lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement.”

What a fucking dumb ass.

"nothing more than animals" ....what's so wrong with animals, and being one?


"degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life"

oh yeah for sure, it definitely degraded my life when I realized I evolved.... just kidding, I'm not a fucking moron, there is nothing degrading about it. It's actually more of an upgrade. I won't get into the meaning and purpose of life right now. You obviously know how I feel about that.



"lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement"

blah blah blah blah blah

since people can't just be good simply because they want to and realize it's correct.



I know the most religious girl who cheated on a guy twice... this stupid idea that you need religion to have morals is completely invalid.

[Blake]

I personally believe in ID, but they should teach both & let the student decide which to believe. Make everyone happy in this politically correct world we live in today.

that sure would make everyone happy, wouldn't it?

[DarkReign]

that sure would make everyone happy, wouldn't it?


Yes, unfortunately it would..temporarily. Until creationism gained traction and we just went ahead and did away with all that "silly" science huff-and-puff.

I mean, whats easier for children to understand and pass requisite tests on, right?

The slow evolution through favorable and unfavorable mutations?

Or "God did it"?

We want to compete with the rest of the world right? Well Hallelujah! We've found a way around that tricky "lags in science" part, now we just need to find a way for God to be responsible for mathematics and we're golden!

[ALVAREZ6]

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Yes, unfortunately it would..temporarily. Until creationism gained traction and we just went ahead and did away with all that "silly" science huff-and-puff.

I mean, whats easier for children to understand and pass requisite tests on, right?

The slow evolution through favorable and unfavorable mutations?

Or "God did it"?

We want to compete with the rest of the world right? Well Hallelujah! We've found a way around that tricky "lags in science" part, now we just need to find a way for God to be responsible for mathematics and we're golden!


If god were an economist, we would never have been in this recession.

[baseline bum]

I am very curious to know when, or if at all MaimiHeat has ever had sex with actual female. because that goes against everything he preaches.

After all what woman or girl you know is going to give up her body to a person that never says I love you? What woman wold marry a man that has no idea what love means or is incapable of showing it?

That means two things are taking place here, MiamiHeat lives alone in a trailer somewhere jerking off to images he downloads off the www, or else he has a girlfriend who was born without any ears, and is blind so he can just fuck her at will without her ever asking "MiamiHeat don't you love me?"

Because after all MiamiHeat can never tell his Mother,Father ,or anyone else he loves them beacuse that would show he has human emotions that don't mesh with his belief's that we are all just protons atoms and space debris, Only someone who has an understanding of life and why we are here can really love and that would go against his teachings, so in closing....

have fun tonight MiamiHeat jerking off to some images of pixels and kbs on your monitor tonight and remember, it's not sperm your shooting but Elmer's Glue, a product made in a laboratory.

man, you're a douche

[baseline bum]

I personally believe in ID, but they should teach both & let the student decide which to believe. Make everyone happy in this politically correct world we live in today.

ID is not science; it is in complete opposition. It is equivalent to teaching atheism in church. Alternate viewpoints that cannot justify themselves do not belong in the argument. Why not teach the alternative viewpoint of radical Islam?

[DarkReign]

:lol

Can I ask you something? Youre from Argentina, and maybe its a horrible assumption to say youre Catholic and that a vast majority of your population is as well.

Does Argentina have this sort of debate in their schools?

[DarkReign]

If god were an economist, we would never have been in this recession.

If God were a weatherman, we wouldnt have to shovel snow.

[Ginobilly]

Lets not make this another does God exist debate. These debates never go anywhere because neither side could prove anything factual. I was like Miamiheat when I younger, and I started out as a believer in Christianity and everything that goes with the teaching of Judeo-Christian values. Then I went to school and turned my belief outside down. I started to question everything, and also my own existence. Evolution didn't explain the creation of the cell or what happened before the big bang. Then I started to read books on theology, Biology, Darwin, chemistry/Alchemy, Anthropology, etc. Then I started to research Physics and read about the most famous physicist of the known world: Newton, Einstein, Planck, Kaku, Witten. These guys weren't/aren't religious or believed in any god from any of the world religions, but they believed in a "Higher Power" . They kept their minds open and didn't shut the door on "God" entirely. I agree with letting people decide what to believe in, because that's is what is going to spur along in our evolution. Everybody will eventually find out the big questions when they die, but until then Miamiheat, no ten encierres.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thanks baseline for already deconstructing the fallacious arguments presented by the luddites quoted in the article. :tu


“Teaching students that they evolved and are nothing more than animals, degrades their quality of life and robs them of meaning and purpose of life,” Muralt said. “The fruits of this God-denying teaching are lying, cheating, stealing, promiscuity, chemical abuse, suicide, crime of all sorts and a reduction in academic achievement.”

:rolleyes

No, poor parenting and decaying values lead to all those things, and dressing up ID as science is simply LYING TO THE KIDS since it is not scientific at all, as has been proven time and again in legal battles over this issue.

And as for "God-denying teaching", what utter horseshit - the issue is not God-denying, the issue is conflating God with science in the science classroom. Want to indoctrinate your kids into the Church, fine, but keep it out of the science classroom.

This debate absolutely astounds me. As an ecologist by training, I spent 3 years reading the evidence for evolution by natural selection, and it is overwhelming... it is bloody obvious to anyone with their eyes open. And yet these ignorant Bible-leteralists still want to claim that the earth is 7000 years old and we just popped into existence fully-formed.


I personally believe in ID, but they should teach both & let the student decide which to believe. Make everyone happy in this politically correct world we live in today.

Um, no. ID is not science. You cannot teach it in the science classroom. It violates the basic principles of science.

[johnsmith.]

No, poor parenting and decaying values lead to

You spending eternity in hell?



all those things, and dressing up ID as science is simply LYING TO THE KIDS since it is not scientific at all, as has been proven time and again in legal battles over this issue.

What has been proven? Please don't tease us!


And as for "God-denying teaching", what utter horseshit - the issue is not God-denying, the issue is conflating God with science in the science classroom. Want to indoctrinate your kids into the Church, fine, but keep it out of the science classroom.

Are you saying Evolution is a science?


This debate absolutely astounds me. As an ecologist by training, I spent 3 years reading the evidence for evolution by natural selection, and it is overwhelming... it is bloody obvious to anyone with their eyes open. And yet these ignorant Bible-leteralists still want to claim that the earth is 7000 years old and we just popped into existence fully-formed.

Since your in a horn tooting mood Please post some facts you uncovered, I hear all your resumes and education every time you post and have yet to see any results!

[baseline bum]

What has been proven? Please don't tease us!

I can't believe you can be that dense that faith and speculation equates to science in your mind.

[johnsmith.]

I can't believe you can be that dense that faith and speculation equates to science in your mind.


Psssst! I know it's been a long day at Kinkos but as soon as you get home and your Mom draws you a nice warm bath with your favorite Jurassic park bubble bath get back online and show me this proof you and that tree hugger FluffNNotReadyOzStale keeps talking about!

I am not the one claiming to be educated and spent 3 years on the subject. Personally i don't give a rats ass where i came from monkey or some Powerful being. I just hate fools that claim they know shit and can't back it.

[mouse]

I have noticed a pattern here in the Club about these topics.

A: the folks who want ID taught in the schools are ok with the school having Evolution they just want the kids to hear both sides.

But the Atheist don't want ID in the schools just evolution. Is that fare and mature?

B:The people in this forum that support ID seem to want to help others from a eternity of Damnation for not believing in a creator. (A nice act)

And the people in this forum who support Evolution seem to insult others and seem to have a chip on their shoulders.(A rude act)

C:The people who support Evolution seem to be very rude and cold hearted.
(MiamiHeat)
The people who support a creator seem to be nice. (Angle Luv)

So since i have seen no one in this forum show any proof of a God or proof man evolved from a fish?

I will just used my common sense and side with the fact that having the sun and water and air and trees fish and flowers just seems to much like a designer so I will have to side with nice people.

It just feels right.

:wakeup

[baseline bum]

Psssst! I know it's been a long day at Kinkos but as soon as you get home and your Mom draws you a nine warm bath with your favorite Jurassic park bubble bath get back online and show me this proof you and that tree hugger FluffNNotReadyOzStale keeps talking about!

I am not the one claiming to be educated and spent 3 years on the subject. Personally i don't give a rats ass where i came from monkey or some Powerful being. I just hate fools that claim they know shit and can't back it.

You called on RuffNReady to prove intelligent design is not science. I'll take the question though.

1. Observational evidence: There is absolutely no observational evidence for a man in the sky who designed everything. No blueprints, no notes. There's nothing physical that even hints there is a man in the sky, much less one who was our designer.

2. Lack of testing: The existence of your god is not testable. You paint it as some supernatural being outside of the realm of science, so how is it then testable by science? Show me an experiment that answers the age-old question that doesn't involve shotguns or jumping off the Tower of Americas. You can claim a feeling inside or quote scripture, but that is not hard evidence. You may even be right, but IDs arguments are non-physical and have no place in a discipline that requires evidence.

3. Analysis: What analysis is there in ID? You form an opinion, have no data to argue for it, and then just repeat it louder when it's challenged. Intelligent design is dogma; it never changes; it's never retested; it's tradition. Tradition is not a tool capable of establishing truth.

You have to be one of whottt's trolls to be so boneheaded as to not see that faith and scientific rigor are mutually exclusive and incompatible ideas, at least in the physical realm. I cannot see walking into a bible-study and telling them it's physically impossible for a human such as Moses to live 900 years or for a dead person to be resurrected, but that's the equivalent of what you want here. Good luck in your quest to turn us into the North American Iran though. :toast

[mouse]

Do you know how hard it is to create the human eye? Why is it if man is so smart he cant figure out how to make a flower or a leaf? Just because some ant farm in some kids basement in Cleveland Ohio has a few ants that disagree with each other i am sure there is an ant like you saying "Oh Yeah? if we were put here then where are the blue prints?"

And I am sure there are a few ants like myself that don't need any blueprints to know we were put there. After all I don't see any blue prints of the Alamo and yet it's there.

Look I can go round and round with you all night long. It's like arguing with a pin head in the politics forum who thinks Bush had no idea 9/11 was ever going to happen.

But keep in mind this much, I am not the one who needs to have proof. Every time I look at a bird feed its young or a Doctor doing heart surgery on a young child, I have all the proof I need of intelligent design. It's the low IQ people like yourselves who really seek proof. Your small mind can't comprehend a creator, your ego will not allow it.

You want to be the ruler of your own destiny, the truth is the Atheist have to deny a creator or else they will be guilty of sinning and that is the real reason Darwin and all the other lost souls rather believe we came from space dust over billions of years ago and evolved into the asshats we see in the mirror everyday.

[baseline bum]

Do you know how hard it is to create the human eye? Why is it if man is so smart he cant figure out how to make a flower or a leaf? Just because some ant farm in some kids basement in Cleveland Ohio has a few ants that disagree with each other i am sure there is an ant like you saying "Oh Yeah? if we were put here then where are the blue prints?"

And I am sure there are a few ants like myself that don't need any blueprints to know we were put there. After all I don't see any blue prints of the Alamo and yet it's there.

Look I can go round and round with you all night long. It's like arguing with a pin head in the politics forum who thinks Bush had no idea 9/11 was ever going to happen.

But keep in mind this much, I am not the one who needs to have proof. Every time I look at a bird feed its young or a Doctor doing heart surgery on a young child, I have all the proof I need of intelligent design. It's the low IQ people like yourselves who really seek proof. Your small mind can't comprehend a creator, your ego will not allow it.

You want to be the ruler of your own destiny, the truth is the Atheist have to deny a creator or else they will be guilty of sinning and that is the real reason Darwin and all the other lost souls rather believe we came from space dust over billions of years ago and evolved into the asshats we see in the mirror everyday.

You're a fucking idiot. It's like you don't read any post that disagrees with your world view.

[Blake]

I have noticed a pattern here in the Club about these topics.

A: the folks who want ID taught in the schools are ok with the school having Evolution they just want the kids to hear both sides.

But the Atheist don't want ID in the schools just evolution. Is that fare and mature?

B:The people in this forum that support ID seem to want to help others from a eternity of Damnation for not believing in a creator. (A nice act)

And the people in this forum who support Evolution seem to insult others and seem to have a chip on their shoulders.(A rude act)

C:The people who support Evolution seem to be very rude and cold hearted.
(MiamiHeat)
The people who support a creator seem to be nice. (Angle Luv)

So since i have seen no one in this forum show any proof of a God or proof man evolved from a fish?

I will just used my common sense and side with the fact that having the sun and water and air and trees fish and flowers just seems to much like a designer so I will have to side with nice people.

It just feels right.

:wakeup

Mouse, it's not just the atheists in this forum that believe that ID should not be taught, it's the court system that has stricken it down before. I can give you the case and the outcome if you like.

I happen to believe in both evolution and God. My common sense says we look pretty similar to monkeys and I am also with you in common sense says to me there is some kind of design.

Problem is that ID is not something that can stand up to the rigors of the scientific method. Evolution can. Therefore, one can be taught in science class, the other can't.

This has been the end result in the court battles.

7 day creationists have tried to get more and more creative, even changing the term to 'intelligent design' in order to slide it past.........but the outcome hasn't changed.

[mouse]

You're a fucking idiot

So much for Intelligent design.

[baseline bum]

So much for Intelligent design.

Go fuck your mother, mouse. Write a post to me when you stay on the point of the question, and quit playing the victim card when you talk way more shit than MiamiHeat or I do.

[MiamiHeat]

I WANT THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS.

How dare you exclude us who believe in the almighty carbohydrate?

I mean, all we are asking for is for the students to hear all views.

That goes for Evolution, ID, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

You better not exclude FSM, or you will be a giant hypocrite.

[Bigzax]

So much for Intelligent design.


:lmao

[mouse]

Mouse, it's not just the atheists in this forum that believe that ID should not be taught, it's the court system that has stricken it down before. I can give you the case and the outcome if you like.

Then why not teach any of it?

get rid of that subject altogether. How is telling some kid he came from a fish going to help him get a job at wallmart?


I happen to believe in both evolution and God.

Then I would love some of that you are smoking. If only we could get the meltdown crew like baseline Bum and his lap dog MiamiHeat to smoke some, we could all get along.



My common sense says we look pretty similar to monkeys

Was that before or after you met MannyIsGod? (I know low blow, but hey he never answers my PMs so fuck him)



and I am also with you in common sense says to me there is some kind of design.

No shit. have you seen what it takes to make a leaf? There is more DNA data than in all the wiring in the NASA space shuttle.





Problem is that ID is not something that can stand up to the rigors of the scientific method.
How do you know if it never has a shot? you think Darwin was believed the first time he wrote a book? The truth is you can teach what ever you want in school it doesn't have to be true. why else do they talk about Jack and the bean stock and the three little pigs? If you allow the ID books in the schools for 10 years it will be fact not fiction in no time. As you can see how the Darwin books have brain washed baseline and others. You know for a fact kids don't care if its true they trust the schools so if its in the text books it must be true.

I have no problem with Evolution just don't call it a science its more of a religion. And keep it out of my child's mind, and i will keep GOD out of your child's mind. But there is no fairness in the schools. If there was they would have never got rid of prayer in school. You can't pray to GOD but if your Muslim then it's ok? That's bias bullshit.



Evolution can. Therefore, one can be taught in science class, the other can't.
Like I said let the students decide not the parents.teachers, and courts.


This has been the end result in the court battles.

That's beacuse the ID people have shitty lawers, put my ass in there and you will see results.




7 day creationists have tried to get more and more creative, even changing the term to 'intelligent design' in order to slide it past.........but the outcome hasn't changed.

So they should just give up?

[mouse]

Go fuck your mother, mouse.

My Mother just pass away Monday. Your a real Gem to SpursTalk Kori must be proud to have you.

[baseline bum]

This message is hidden because mouse is on your ignore list.

[mouse]

Trust me I am the one who benefits from this not you.

I wonder what you did in school before you had ignore?

La la la la la I'm not listening!

http://www.stars.handshake.de/starlog3-3a.jpg

The Atheist of this site have suffered a major blow having someone so immature like yourself in their corner. And to think I actually took some of your posts as something worthy of a reply. I rather argue with BuddyHolly about 1604.

[johnsmith.]

Go fuck your mother, mouse..

Dam that some shit not even i would say when I am having a meltdown. You suck Baseline.

[GoGatos.]

My Mother just pass away Monday. Your a real Gem to SpursTalk Kori must be proud to have you.

Sorry to hear about your mom Mouse, I lost mine last month also. I apologize for this Baseline person Kori should ban him at least a few days that is uncalled for.
This place is turning to shit when you can talk about having sex with your mother.

[johnsmith.]

My Mother just pass away Monday. Your a real Gem to SpursTalk Kori must be proud to have you.


Don't worry mouse i will quote you so that ass wipe will have to put me on ignore also. :tu

[johnsmith.]

Trust me I am the one who benefits from this not you.

I wonder what you did in school before you had ignore?

La la la la la I'm not listening!

http://www.stars.handshake.de/starlog3-3a.jpg

The Atheist of this site have suffered a major blow having someone so immature like yourself in their corner. And to think I actually took some of your posts as something worthy of a reply. I rather argue with BuddyHolly about 1604.

[baseline bum]

Sorry to hear about your mom Mouse, I lost mine last month also. I apologize for this Baseline person Kori should ban him at least a few days that is uncalled for.
This place is turning to shit when you can talk about having sex with your mother.

You're full of shit mouse. There's never a time you're not trolling on this forum. Your answer was pretty predictable.

[Shelly.]

My Mother just pass away Monday. Your a real Gem to SpursTalk Kori must be proud to have you.


Mouse Ignore him he is an ass! Sorry about your Mother.

[DarkReign]

Sorry to hear about your mom Mouse, I lost mine last month also. I apologize for this Baseline person Kori should ban him at least a few days that is uncalled for.
This place is turning to shit when you can talk about having sex with your mother.

Grow the fuck up, like he knew.

EDITED: Shit, fell for a mouse troll :lmao

[Phenomanul]

Any 'scientific' claims made on the subject of origins are inherently not classifiable as science. When people understand that premise. This debate becomes rather irrelevant.

Secularist: We don't want ID taught in the classrooms. Keep GOD out of it - keep it to yourselves.

Me: Fine by me, just don't presume to know how it all began; none of it is testable, observable nor can we extrapolate outside of the existing naturalistic processes to make any conclusive statements about the original cosmic singularity that preceeded the birth of the universe, or the molecular birth of life. That is not science either, so keep those assumptions outside of the classroom as well. Besides, I'll probably end up homeschooling my children.

Secularist: You can't do that, brainwashing them will only breed more contempt from people like myself.

Me: You can't have it both ways, particularly because I'm forced into paying public school taxes even though my children don't attend. Hence, as long as I'm not breaking any laws - neither you nor the government has any sovereignty over what I teach my children. Besides, when did your camp develop the sudden interest in the development of others' children? That I know of, most of you all indescriminantly lobby in favor of the their murder at their most vulnerable stage of life. You may know of the practice, it's called abortion.

Secularist: Like I said, keep it to yourself. Don't infect your children with your beliefs.

Me: Seems like a hypocritical attack on my belief system. "Teach only what we want taught as truth, and keep your own beliefs to yourself (singular tense stressed)." What a 'progressive future' yours is.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I can only imagine what stalwart Christian Intelligent Design proponents Hegamboa's kids will be after a healthy 18 years of homeschooling by him.

He's like, "See son? These rocks? See? You can't really carbon date these rocks! It's flawed! See son? It's only 4000 years old!"

[baseline bum]

Any 'scientific' claims made on the subject of origins are inherently not classifiable as science. When people understand that premise. This debate becomes rather irrelevant.

Secularist: We don't want ID taught in the classrooms. Keep GOD out of it - keep it to yourselves.

Me: Fine by me, just don't presume to know how it all began; none of it is testable, observable nor can we extrapolate outside of the existing naturalistic processes to make any conclusive statements about the original cosmic singularity that preceeded the birth of the universe, or the molecular birth of life. That is not science either, so keep those assumptions outside of the classroom as well. Besides, I'll probably end up homeschooling my children.


I'm fine with leaving questions about origins of the universe until people are old and mature enough to investigate those issues on their own, instead of being pushed by dogma as impressionable youth.

[Phenomanul]

I can only imagine what stalwart Christian Intelligent Design proponents Hegamboa's kids will be after a healthy 18 years of homeschooling by him.

He's like, "See son? These rocks? See? You can't really carbon date these rocks! It's flawed! See son? It's only 4000 years old!"

You presume too much. Typical.

[Phenomanul]

I'm fine with leaving questions about origins of the universe until people are old and mature enough to investigate those issues on their own, instead of being pushed by dogma as impressionable youth.

The dogma goes both ways.

[baseline bum]

The dogma goes both ways.

Don't tell me you're one of those people who tries to bring science down to the level of faith.

[Phenomanul]

Don't tell me you're one of those people who tries to bring science down to the level of faith?

Talk about a broad stroke with the paintbrush....

Don't tell me you're one of those people who criticize absolutism but then employ it on others?

To answer your question:
When concerning the subject of origins, definitely.

[baseline bum]

Talk about a broad stroke with the paintbrush....

Don't tell me you're one of those people who criticize absolutism but then employ it on others?

To answer your question:
When concerning the subject of origins, definitely.

Natural selection is not an explanation of the origin of life.

[Phenomanul]

Natural selection is not an explanation of the origin of life.

Exactly. /Thread.

[MiamiHeat]

really sad to see

2009 and science is still under attack by the fools who believe in boogiemen

let this be a lesson to you idealistic people who think religion 'hurts nobody'

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You spending eternity in hell? (1)

What has been proven? Please don't tease us! (2)

Are you saying Evolution is a science? (3)

Since your in a horn tooting mood Please post some facts you uncovered, I hear all your resumes and education every time you post and have yet to see any results! (4)

(1) Hell... hahahahahahaha... sooooo scary. :rolleyes

(2) So you'd like me to synthesize thousands of papers and hundreds of textbooks for you in an ST thread? Get fucked moron. Go do some reading, you might learn something.

(3) Evolution by natural selection is a theory which I've explained on ST, oh, about 10 times, and there is proof to support it from many branches of science ranging from physiology to geology, ecology to genetics.

(4) I haven't uncovered any facts, but I've read about what great scientisits have discovered and it's pretty convincing. You want to know something, start reading some paleogeology, genetics, then ecology. Then tell me what you don't understand and we'll talk.

[baseline bum]

Exactly. /Thread.

Yes; natural selection is dependent on pre-existing life. What caused life to appear from non-life in the first place? I don't know about that one. Wish I did so I could publish and win a Nobel.

I have no problem with full-blown biblical creationism (much less ID) taught in public schools, at long as it's in a theology or maybe a philosophy class. Not in a required class though, as it's not the government's job to push religion... and not masquerading as science.

[Phenomanul]

really sad to see

2009 and science is still under attack by the fools who believe in boogiemen

let this be a lesson to you idealistic people who think religion 'hurts nobody'

Feel free to explain how science conclusively explains the origin of creation.

Enlighten us with your arguments.

Seriously though, all your absolute comments have done is cause us to question whether or not you've already exposed yourself as lacking original thought.

[MiamiHeat]

Feel free to explain how science conclusively explains the origin of creation.



What is your point?

Science has no conclusive explanation yet.

That means we are to ...what? what is your point exactly?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Talk about a broad stroke with the paintbrush....

Don't tell me you're one of those people who criticize absolutism but then employ it on others?

To answer your question:
When concerning the subject of origins, definitely.

Missing the point so totally it's hilarious.

Science does not claim anything that isn't reproducible. It is the ability of one scientist in Venezuela to copy what a guy in Siberia did and get the same result that is at the heart of science. Thus, science does not make any claim about the origin of the Universe because, as yet, there is no way to test such a claim.

What science can tell you is that the world is about 4bil years old (not 7000 or so as claimed by Genesis), and that life evolves by a process of natural selection that we have observed in genetics, physiology, the fossil record, and speciation (eg. mosquitoes in the London underground, amongst others).

I don't give a fuck whether you believe in God or not - you have the right to believe whatever you like - but it is ignorant to write off the painstaking work of millions of scientists this century as some sort of fairy tale.

[Phenomanul]

What is your point?

Like I thought. You're not really here to talk science.

Go on... hurry on to some website to pursue another "copy and paste" tirade that suits your MO. One in which you will have very little understanding of what is actually being argued. Well... with the exception of your agenda.

[MiamiHeat]

You have been given a chance to state your point. You chose to behave like a little boy.

Off with you, troll

[Ginobilly]

What is your point?

Science has no conclusive explanation yet.


And it never will. Just like ID never will either. We will be having this argument tens and millions of years into the future, and that is the beauty of it.
Like I said; the truth will be revealed when you die. That's why everybody is dying to know.

[MiamiHeat]

And it never will. Just like ID never will either. We will be having this argument tens and millions of years into the future, and that is the beauty of it.
Like I said; the truth will be revealed when you die. That's why everybody is dying to know.

incorrect. Science -will- figure out how all life can begin from nothing.

Origin of the entire universe? That one is tough. Maybe, maybe not. All we need is a breakthrough, etc...


Religion on the other hand, is man-made fairy tale that can never be proven because it doesn't exist. It's not science. It's faith, believing in a boogieman and thinking everyone else's religion is wrong.

you are a grown man and you still believe in a version of santa claus. Be good, little boy, and I'll give you a present ! but if you are a bad little boy, oooh, bad present for you.

[MiamiHeat]

by the vay, ID will fail miserably when seriously challenged.

ID is religious teaching. The Constitution contains what is known as an establishment clause, stating that congress shall never pass a law respecting an establishment of religion.

[Ginobilly]

incorrect. Science -will- figure out how all life can begin from nothing.

Origin of the entire universe? That one is tough. Maybe, maybe not. All we need is a breakthrough, etc...


Religion on the other hand, is man-made fairy tale that can never be proven because it doesn't exist. It's not science. It's faith, believing in a boogieman and thinking everyone else's religion is wrong.


But that's how they work together. You can't have Science without having Religion and vice versa. They;re like yin and yang. All I know is that whatever "life"/"reality" is, it's that it allows us eat/fuck, and love and most importantly, watch the Spurs.:flag: I'll smoke and drink to that!:toast:hat

[baseline bum]

Einstein's idea evolved since his passing. One of his foibles when trying to reach for a theory of everything was his stubborness. For as brilliant as Enstein was, he didnt take criticism or opposing views very kindly. IIRC, didnt he despise quantam mechanics because his theories about gravity and space-time were non-applicable to the "super-micro" world? Something like that, dont quote me.



It's hard to fault Einstein for his belief that "God does not play dice with the universe". It seems like it was Einstein's belief that physical laws were simple at their core which led him to publish the theory of special relativity.

The argument goes something like this:

Mechanical laws are invariant in inertial frames: F=ma no matter whether you measure it standing on Earth or inside a train going straight a constant 200 mph. So in essence, you can't tell if this train is moving (relative to the ground) or standing still without looking out the window. If the Galilean relativity transformations are right (and the speed of light is not the same in all reference frames), all you have to do is measure the speed c' of a light beam in the train and subtract it from c (the speed of light I measure from outside the train when I see you shoot the beam from inside it) to determine the train's speed... i.e., c = c' + v implies v = c - c'.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7541/trainau5.png

In this way you can know if it's moving without looking out the window, and therefore electromagnetic laws would not be invariant in inertial reference frames. To Einstein this was ridiculous that one set of physical laws would obey invariance in inertial frames and another wouldn't, and he was vindicated.

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle really threw a wrench into Einstein's ideas of simplicity. Still, he would have never come up with special relativity if he didn't have that strong belief in the simplicity and elegance of natural law, and our technology would be way behind. Imagine satellites without relativity, or all the huge errors our space program has avoided with a better understanding of gravity that started with this simple idea that had profound consequences.

EDIT: By inertial frame, I mean measurements made when there is no acceleration... i.e., the direction of movement is not changing and neither is the speed.... so at rest on Earth or moving 200 mph in a straight line on a train would fit.

By Galilean reference frame I basically mean the idea that if you drive behind a car going 100mph while your car is going 90, you measure the car in front of you getting away at 10mph (for any values of 100, 90, and 100 - 90 :lol )

[Ginobilly]

incorrect. Science -will- figure out how all life can begin from nothing. .

Wrong! Cause, don't you need atoms/sub atomic particles for molecules to form, thus forming the chemical composition of a cell? Where do Atoms come from?

[MiamiHeat]

7laHxv4vIcw

[baseline bum]

Wrong! Cause, don't you need atoms/sub atomic particles for molecules to form, thus forming the chemical composition of a cell? Where do Atoms come from?

I love physics. Every time you answer one interesting question, it springs 100 better ones on you.

[MiamiHeat]

Wrong! Cause, don't you need atoms/sub atomic particles for molecules to form, thus forming the chemical composition of a cell? Where do Atoms come from?

no, I am not wrong. I said 'life'

atoms are not defined as life. are you trying to tell us that atoms are living things?

[Ginobilly]

I love physics. Every time you answer one interesting question, it springs 100 better ones on you.

That's why I do to. I think it was Japanese American Theoretical Physicist Michio Kaku who once said, "We Physicist are the only scientist who use the word "god" without blushing".

[MiamiHeat]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

- einstein


Anyone who latches onto religion just because they are mystified by a lack of answer at the present moment is being lazy and irresponsible. Ok, so humanity does not know the answer to your question AT THIS TIME. That doesn't mean you should go off to la-la land and start imaging boogiemen.

[Ginobilly]

no, I am not wrong. I said 'life'

atoms are not defined as life. are you trying to tell us that atoms are living things?

Well, we are made from them so in essence they are "life", if you look deep inside how far the rabbit hole goes. I have a feeling it will keep going and going and going.

[MiamiHeat]

No, in essence they are not life.

In essence, I am made of carbon and other elements. Carbon is not alive.

Please, put down the marijuana.

[baseline bum]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." - einstein

I wasn't trying to paint Einstein as a theist with his god and dice quote (he's clearly not a believer in god in any theistic sense; arguably in a deistic sense, but probably not).

It's just the one he's famous for in his disagreements with QM.

[Ginobilly]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

- einstein


Anyone who latches onto religion just because they are mystified by a lack of answer at the present moment is being lazy and irresponsible. Ok, so humanity does not know the answer to your question AT THIS TIME. That doesn't mean you should go off to la-la land and start imaging boogiemen.

It's not a "boogiemen", it's something deeper than that. Einstein said "Personal god" such as the god of Moises and Abraham and the Judeo-Christianity/Islam god. What these guys believe in is a "Physics god". A god that is good at Mathematics.

[mavs>spurs2]

No, in essence they are not life.

In essence, I am made of carbon and other elements. Carbon is not alive.

Please, put down the marijuana.

Why are you, like so many other athiests, so hellbent on this? If you don't believe then why do you give a fuck what other people think?

Repeat after me "I do not personally believe in God" and be done with it

Does it also drive you crazy to think that your little brother/sister/son/daughter believes in Santa Claus? I'm guessing no, so what is the underlying issue here?

[Phenomanul]

Missing the point so totally it's hilarious.

By whose standard? Yours? Please..... :rolleyes This is not a "I'm smarter than you debate." Some of history's most prominent, intellectually gifted minds were Deists.

In fact, I'm pretty sure if the evidence were so conclusive this debate would have been over decades ago. Can't you see? Everybody wears blinders... even if they don't admit to it. Apparently however, it seems as though you missed the point of my reply. Ironic, considering the condescending tone of your post.



Science does not claim anything that isn't reproducible. It is the ability of one scientist in Venezuela to copy what a guy in Siberia did and get the same result that is at the heart of science. Thus, science does not make any claim about the origin of the Universe because, as yet, there is no way to test such a claim.

Which is why science is not a tool meant for disproving GOD's existence, as some routinely assume. When baseline bum made his 'impressionable youth' comment I made sure to interject that the impressionistic agendas can come from either camp.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Did I not state that I don't believe ID belongs in the classroom? So what exactly are you arguing?



What science can tell you is that the world is about 4bil years old (not 7000 or so as claimed by Genesis),

Only if one were to interpret Genesis literally. I haven't asserted that as fact. But I also haven't completely discarded that possibility. Why? Simply because I recognize the fact that the supernatural cannot be defined scientifically.

But while I'm fine with that element of faith in my belief system, others don't even realize that they themselves have developed faith of their own - especially when there is no scientific basis for their disbelief.

Faith is inherently required for one to deduce that GOD doesn't exist by scientific principles. I mean you just said, "Thus, science does not make any claim about the origin of the Universe because, as yet, there is no way to test such a claim."

Therefore, erroneously believing that science explains the subject of origins and using that to justify one's position of disbelief requires faith. Faith in that one day we'll find the answer to the origins riddle. So if one's disbelief is founded on other principles fine.... just don't expect me to buy the notion that the GOD vs. Science debate can be settled on the terms of either side. Think about that for a second.


and that life evolves by a process of natural selection that we have observed in genetics, physiology, the fossil record,

I'm sorry, the fossil record only supports micro-evolution. Attempts to show how it conclusively supports macro-evolution are spotty at best. In fact, when macro evolution is conclusively supported, the Theory of Evolution will have nothing hindering its reclassification from a 'theory' to a 'law'.

But that will be kind of difficult to do. After all, science does have its standards. I'm counting on them.


and speciation (eg. mosquitoes in the London underground, amongst others).

....mosquitoes which remain interfertile with other mosquito species...



I don't give a fuck whether you believe in God or not - you have the right to believe whatever you like - but it is ignorant to write off the painstaking work of millions of scientists this century as some sort of fairy tale.

Simmer down. I haven't written off their work... But your allegation that I have done so is what find distasteful and ignorant.

[MiamiHeat]

Why are you, like so many other athiests, so hellbent on this? If you don't believe then why do you give a fuck what other people think?

Repeat after me "I do not personally believe in God" and be done with it

Does it also drive you crazy to think that your little brother/sister/son/daughter believes in Santa Claus? I'm guessing no, so what is the underlying issue here?

Read the topic of the thread before you go off on your fucking rants.

ID trying to be passed off as 'science' and forced upon everyone.

[mavs>spurs2]

Read the topic of the thread before you go off on your fucking rants.

ID trying to be passed off as 'science' and forced upon everyone.

It's not a rant, it's an accurate observation that YOU are the one who goes off on multiple rants on these religion threads. Any thread involving religion and you're there debating nonstop for days. And it always boils down to you telling everyone God doesn't exist.

What I'm trying to say is why do you athiests get your panties in such a wad? I think if I didn't believe in something I just wouldn't believe and leave it at that. But the majority of athiests not only don't believe but are adamantly against religion, mainly christianity, and it makes me curious.

[baseline bum]

It's not a rant, it's an accurate observation that YOU are the one who goes off on multiple rants on these religion threads. Any thread involving religion and you're there debating nonstop for days. And it always boils down to you telling everyone God doesn't exist.

What I'm trying to say is why do you athiests get your panties in such a wad? I think if I didn't believe in something I just wouldn't believe and leave it at that. But the majority of athiests not only don't believe but are adamantly against religion, mainly christianity, and it makes me curious.

To not be concerned with science education being watered down smacks of laziness and apathy from anyone who loves the pursuit of knowledge. I don't think many of us are saying the books should tell young students there is no god, but we are saying there should be no state-sponsored mandatory religious education that contradicts what one is trying to teach, which is what intelligent design in science classrooms is.

[mavs>spurs2]

To not be concerned with science education being watered down smacks of laziness and apathy from anyone who loves the pursuit of knowledge. I don't think many of us are saying the books should tell young students there is no god, but we are saying there should be no state-sponsored mandatory religious education that contradicts what one is trying to teach, which is what intelligent design in science classrooms is.

I perfectly understand and agree with that. What I'm trying to figure out is why any thread involving "God" or "religion" attracts this guy like flies to a horses ass and gets him all worked up.

[ALVAREZ6]

Can I ask you something? Youre from Argentina, and maybe its a horrible assumption to say youre Catholic and that a vast majority of your population is as well.

Does Argentina have this sort of debate in their schools?
I couldn't tell you, I've lived in Pennsylvania basically all of my life.

[spurspf]

I don't worship a God, but what do worship is the sense of self righteousness and truth. Yes, I agree with everything you say about chemicals aligning in the right conditions, thus creating life and consciousness. But you have you problem, you need a composer to compose the harmonic song that is life. In my gut feeling: God= Mother nature/Sun/Governor of the laws of physics which allows for our existence. Let put it this way, we are the intelligent design of Atoms. This is not some uncontrolled science experiment, our atoms know exactly what they are doing and I'm perfectly fine with that. Some nights when I look up in the dark sky, I thank mother nature for letting me play in this Arena that is Space time.

Why do I need a composer? There is no need for an Intelligent design. Gia does not need your god either. Gia doesn't exist either, but keep making up shit to rationalize why we are not naked apes.

[Blake]

But that's how they work together. You can't have Science without having Religion and vice versa. They;re like yin and yang. All I know is that whatever "life"/"reality" is, it's that it allows us eat/fuck, and love and most importantly, watch the Spurs.:flag: I'll smoke and drink to that!:toast:hat

no

[Blake]

I couldn't tell you, I've lived in Pennsylvania basically all of my life.

:lol

[Mog]

I perfectly understand and agree with that. What I'm trying to figure out is why any thread involving "God" or "religion" attracts this guy like flies to a horses ass and gets him all worked up.

Try not to disagree with baseline or he will tell you to have sex with your mother.

[DarkReign]

I couldn't tell you, I've lived in Pennsylvania basically all of my life.


Haha.

[Mog]

I feel so honored to have the opportunity to post in the same forum with such great minds as Ruff/MimaiHeat/and Baseline.

They seem to know so much, their minds are far more superior than ours. You would think with all that vast knowledge they and their so called scientists they quote so often that maybe one of them could maybe use some of that knowledge they have and maybe find a cure for Cancer?

Or is it they are just as ignorant as a drunk sailor in a bar? Lets see some of their famous quotes in this topic, you decide.......



Get fucked moron. .

Go fuck your mother, mouse..

I'm not a fucking moron,

You're full of shit mouse.

What a fucking dumb ass.


You're a fucking idiot.

Yes the great minds of SpursTalk at work. I guess we can now rule out Intelligent Design.

[mouse]

It's not a rant, it's an accurate observation that YOU are the one who goes off on multiple rants on these religion threads. Any thread involving religion and you're there debating nonstop for days. And it always boils down to you telling everyone God doesn't exist.

What I'm trying to say is why do you athiests get your panties in such a wad? I think if I didn't believe in something I just wouldn't believe and leave it at that. But the majority of athiests not only don't believe but are adamantly against religion, mainly christianity, and it makes me curious.


That is why I won't debate these people anymore, they claim to have all this education and yet their words here in this topic shows they have a very low IQ as they resort to insults. Base-Line and his school yard buddy MimaiHeat I can see acting in a immature fashion. I just didn't expect it from RuffNRready I took him as an adult you could maybe reason with, how wrong I was.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:lmao :lmao

I knew Hegamboa would rape this thread with his long-winded, credentialed IDisms.

rofl
"See son? With a little teaching you can outsmart the tour guides at national parks and explain to them how carbon dating doesn't really work. See son? 4000 year old rocks all around!"

[johnsmith]

That is why I won't debate these people anymore, they claim to have all this education and yet their words here in this topic shows they have a very low IQ as they resort to insults. Base-Line and his school yard buddy MimaiHeat I can see acting in a immature fashion. I just didn't expect it from RuffNRready I took him as an adult you could maybe reason with, how wrong I was.

:lmao Says the guy that adds a "." to everyone's name and then very "maturely" posts using that name.

[mouse]

:lmao Says the guy that adds a "." to everyone's name and then very "maturely" posts using that name.


I do what I have to sometimes in order to get my point across the narrow minded.

[johnsmith]

I do what I have to sometimes in order to get my point across the narrow minded.

So since no one gives a fuck what you have to say, you steal other usernames because people will actually read those?

I'm just asking.

[Ginobilly]

no

Ok, I'm not passing what I'm saying as truth. That's just my gut feeling.
Our interpretation of what is "God" has been evolving throughout our history, and it will eventually reach a conclusion tens and millions/biliions of years into the future. What is it? I don't know, but I stay tuned to physics because these guys are the only Scientist that haven't completely wrote off "god" just yet. They want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, and so do I. So I support both ID/creationism and Science/evolution being taught just as long as they give people the choice and the right to question everything. Because that's the freedom we so righteously deserve as human beings.

[peewee's lovechild]

Where do Atoms come from?

Dark matter.

Either way, that will be figured out by science.

It's ludicrous to believe it won't.

[The Reckoning]

atoms come from protons, electrons, and neutrons

:tu

...and the rest is from a massive celestial splooge from Ra

[peewee's lovechild]

Why are you, like so many other athiests, so hellbent on this? If you don't believe then why do you give a fuck what other people think?

Because those people are hellbent on teaching ID in school which I don't want my children to learn because it's all predicated on some bullshit make-believe bullshit from the bible.

[peewee's lovechild]

To say that science and religion go together like yin and yang is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

That's just beyond stupidity.

[peewee's lovechild]

As for Mouse, dude you crack me up sometimes.

But, answer this:

When you're dying of cancer, will you be waiting on a cure from god or science?

I'd personally go with science, because a lot of people pray to this god thing everyday and he doesn't seem to be listening.

[baseline bum]

Poor mouse the drama queen. Boo hoo... he can talk bullshit and then acts like a pussy when someone gives it back.

[baseline bum.]

So since no one gives a fuck what you have to say, .

Where do you see that posted?

[baseline bum]

At least get the avatar right if you're gonna spoof me.

[baseline bum.]

So since no one gives a fuck what you have to say, you steal other usernames because people will actually read those?

I'm just asking.


Actually the johnsmith troll had much more interesting things to say then the original johnsmith you should really be thanking the person.

[Ginobilly]

what's your alternative hypothesis?

I don't go to Church or involved in any way shape or form with any religion, but I believe in a higher power. What that is, I don't know? But I bet Science/Physics will answer that question. I feel like we are a small cog in Synchronization with a living and breathing self-aware universe.

[caribbean_spur]

I have to say, I really like this country. But it always dumbfound me that a debate like this can even exist.

I believe in God and I am a scientist. Until I move to the US I had no idea so many people really believed in the 7 day creation and all the Adam and Eve story. And so be it, people can believe in it, it's their right. But to think that they want it to be introduced in a classroom? In a science classroom?!

Where I come from people are very religious, and I have never heard anybody wanting to talk about creationism or ID at school. This is what catechism or Sunday school as they call it here is for. That in the education system people are considering such a preposterous decision as to include ID at school, just tells me one thing: As great as this country is, religion is way to present in the political life and education system and it's a very very bad combination.

[spurspf]

I don't go to Church or involved in any way shape or form with any religion, but I believe in a higher power. What that is, I don't know? But I bet Science/Physics will answer that question. I feel like we are a small cog in Synchronization with a living and breathing self-aware universe.


Dude, that higher power is the aliens that annaly probed you.

[MiamiHeat]

why does mouse make copy cat spoof names of everyone with a period at the end?

baselinebum, johnsmith, etc...

[Ginobilly]

what's your alternative hypothesis?

Religion is our past, Science is the future, but I think there is some metaphorically factual truth to some religious beliefs/values that give us a righteous moral sense of living. That's why a lot of people believe in what they do. I guess it guides them on how to behave and have social order.

[Blake]

So I support both ID/creationism and Science/evolution being taught just as long as they give people the choice and the right to question everything. Because that's the freedom we so righteously deserve as human beings.

so wrong.

this isn't a buffet where you get to choose what goes on your plate.

as BB has mentioned, if you want that in philosophy class, no problem. Just keep ID out of science class. It has no place.

[Blake]

I have to say, I really like this country. But it always dumbfound me that a debate like this can even exist.

I believe in God and I am a scientist. Until I move to the US I had no idea so many people really believed in the 7 day creation and all the Adam and Eve story. And so be it, people can believe in it, it's their right. But to think that they want it to be introduced in a classroom? In a science classroom?!

Where I come from people are very religious, and I have never heard anybody wanting to talk about creationism or ID at school. This is what catechism or Sunday school as they call it here is for. That in the education system people are considering such a preposterous decision as to include ID at school, just tells me one thing: As great as this country is, religion is way to present in the political life and education system and it's a very very bad combination.

best post yet

[Blake]

why does mouse make copy cat spoof names of everyone with a period at the end?

baselinebum, johnsmith, etc...

why do lemmings jump off the ledge?

it's just what they were born to do

[MiamiHeat.]

why does mouse make copy cat spoof names of everyone with a period at the end?

baselinebum, johnsmith, etc...


Maybe I should just grow a pair and ask him myself?

[MiamiHeat]

oh great, now he copied me. is there some sort of board rule against this? if i have him on ignore, i don't want to see him posting at all and this copy-cat stuff should be against the rules

[The Reckoning]

oh great, now he copied me. is there some sort of board rule against this? if i have him on ignore, i don't want to see him posting at all and this copy-cat stuff should be against the rules


I am Spartacus!

:soapbox:

[MiamiHeat]

lol are you saying i'm going to have to put 1000 names on ignore by the time mouse is done? quite annoying

[MiamiHeat.]

lol are you saying i'm going to have to put 1000 names on ignore by the time mouse is done? quite annoying


I'm sure me telling people 24/7 there is no God and insulting them with my fowl mouth for not agreeing with my lame beliefs is much less annoying.

Maybe my whining ass really belongs at a Miami Heat forum?

[Laker Lanny]

is there some sort of board rule against this?this copy-cat stuff should be against the rules


http://cornerstork.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/crying_baby.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

keep them coming mouse. i am determined to add all of your user names on ignore.

[MavTalker]

oh great, now he copied me. is there some sort of board rule against this? if i have him on ignore, i don't want to see him posting at all and this copy-cat stuff should be against the rules


How old is this boy 15? 16? His posts get more pathetic as each day goes by. I can see why they kicked him out of any heat Forums.

[nacho]

I like how this tard wants to pull out the rules card after he fucks with others and then when they bite back he wants his Mommy Kori to save him. :lmao

be gone Troll!

[mavs>spurs2]

putting people on ignore just shows that you are weak

[MiamiHeat]

mouse is a fatass loser who sits in his mother's basement. how else could he have time to make 100000 spoof names and troll this forum? you don't find that sad and weak? you find me putting his troll loser ass on ignore the weak one?

lol fucking mavericks fans.

i'm one of the smart ones. put him on ignore and the end.

[Duncan]

mouse is a fatass loser who sits in his mother's basement.

This guy just doesn't get it. No one wants to see jr high insults every time we open a topic. Anyone remember when the club was interesting, and fun before this kid started spamming it? I rather see 5 Million more mouse screen names then to see another 16 year old wannabe Miami fan.

Keep it up MiamiHeat soon it will just be you and your two friends Ruff and Baseline, you three can worship Satan together.

[baseline bum]

LMAO @ mouse talking with himself this whole page.

[mavs>spurs2]

LMAO @ people who don't get mouse...

[baseline bum]

I get him fine:

http://www.justindauer.com/wp-content/attention-whore.jpg

[E20]

My 2 cents:

Evolution is a scientific concept that carries all the hallmarks of a scientific theory/study, so it should be taught in science classes. ID does not, so it should not be taught in a science class.

[baseline bum]

My 2 cents:

Evolution is a scientific concept that carries all the hallmarks of a scientific theory/study, so it should be taught in science classes. ID does not, so it should not be taught in a science class.

That's all of our 2cents on the issue, but mouse wants to lie and turn evolution into teaching there is no god.

[Ginobilly]

so wrong.

this isn't a buffet where you get to choose what goes on your plate.

as BB has mentioned, if you want that in philosophy class, no problem. Just keep ID out of science class. It has no place.

[Ginobilly]

I agree with you, keep it in Philosophy class, but make philosophy an option for students to choose because they don't even offer it at the middle and high school level. What's wrong with getting to choose what goes on your plate? This isn't Nazi Germany, this is America! In god we trust = Everything that is right, fair, and moral. I have to the right to know about both and to question all the so called "facts" of either evolution/ID philosophy or whatever, and to say fuck you to each of them equally if they go overboard. I believe in a "God" but not in Religious institutions. If people want to go to church on Sundays and praise god, let them. But let me also praise "God" on Sundays by drinking a cold brew, smoke a fat blunt, while I watch the Spurs open a can of whoop ass!:flag: