Officials: Obama to reverse abortion policy [Archive]

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angel_luv

01-23-2009, 01:30 PM

I am very disappointed by this decision.

The main reason I voted for Senator McCain was his pro-life stance.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_abortion_ban

WASHINGTON – In a long-expected move, President Barack Obama plans to sign an executive order ending the ban on federal funds for international groups that perform abortions or provide information on the option, officials told The Associated Press on Friday.

Liberal groups welcomed the decision while abortion rights foes criticized the president. Known as the "Mexico City policy," the ban has been reinstated and then reversed by Republican and Democratic presidents since GOP President Ronald Reagan established it in 1984. President Bill Clinton ended the ban in 1993, but President George W. Bush re-instituted it in 2001 as one of his first acts in office.

The policy bans U.S. taxpayer money, usually in the form of U.S. Agency for International Development funds, from going to international family planning groups that either offer abortions or provide information, counseling or referrals about abortion. It is also known as the "global gag rule," because it prohibits taxpayer funding for groups that lobby to legalize abortion or promote it as a family planning method.

The Democratic official and senior U.S. official who disclosed the plans did so on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to pre-empt Obama's announcement.

Obama was expected to sign the executive order at a low-key event, one day after the 36th anniversary of the landmark Supreme Court ruling in Roe v. Wade that legalized abortion.

The move was not a surprise as both Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who will oversee foreign aid, had promised to do away with the gag rule during the presidential campaign. Clinton is to visit the U.S. Agency for International Development, through which much U.S. foreign aid is disbursed, later on Friday.

Obama has spent his first days in office systematically signing executive orders reversing Bush administration policies on issues ranging from foreign policy to government operations. But, save for ending the ban, Obama has largely refrained from wading into ideological issues, perhaps to avoid being tagged a traditional partisan from the outset after his campaign promises to change "business as usual" in the often partisan-gridlocked capital.

Rather, Obama has chosen to focus initially on issues in which there is consensus across the political spectrum and support from the public, such as closing the prison camp for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to making government documents more accessible.

In a move related to the lifting of the abortion ban, Obama also is expected to restore funding to the U.N. Population Fund (UNFPA) at his earliest opportunity, probably in the next budget. Both he and Clinton made this a campaign issue.

The Bush administration had barred U.S. money from going to the fund, contending that work in China supported a Chinese family planning policy of coercive abortion and involuntary sterilization. UNFPA has vehemently denied that it does.

Organizations that had pressed Obama to make the abortion-ban change were jubilant.

"Women's health has been severely impacted by the cutoff of assistance. President Obama's actions will help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, abortions and women dying from high-risk pregnancies because they don't have access to family planning," said Tod Preston, a spokesman for Population Action International, an advocacy group.

Anti-abortion groups criticized the move.

"President Obama not long ago told the American people that he would support policies to reduce abortions, but today he is effectively guaranteeing more abortions by funding groups that promote abortion as a method of population control," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee.

clambake

01-23-2009, 01:34 PM

mccain would have said anything for a vote, or had palin say it for him.

jman3000

01-23-2009, 01:34 PM

I think abortion should be legal and am perfectly okay with it as long as it's in the first trimester... but I don't think we need to be funding international groups for services.

thumbs down.

CavsSuperFan

01-23-2009, 01:35 PM

What is disturbing is that U.S. Taxpayers will now be funding abortions in Saudi Arabia, Mexico & Africa…
”Change we can believe in I guess”…:depressed

Blake

01-23-2009, 01:35 PM

Obama kills black babies forum

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 01:40 PM

What is disturbing is that U.S. Taxpayers will now be funding abortions in Saudi Arabia, Mexico & Africa[I]…

Just the thought of that makes me sick to my stomach.

CuckingFunt

01-23-2009, 01:43 PM

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 01:50 PM

Family planning =/= abortions. A big part of family planning organizations is providing information on birth control and safe sexual practices, which is absolutely essential to women's health issues. Especially in poorer countries.

If President Obama plans to do only the above, then I have no issue.

I know that every life- those of people already born and those still in the womb- is precious to God and that He is going to hold us all accountable, accordingly.

zinagray

01-23-2009, 01:55 PM

That is crazy

The Reckoning

01-23-2009, 01:56 PM

shouldnt funding like this be the UN's job?

we should focus on our own shit...we're in a recession, after all

CuckingFunt

01-23-2009, 02:02 PM

shouldnt funding like this be the UN's job?

we should focus on our own shit...we're in a recession, after all

Unless I've read the article wrong, we haven't actually funded a damn thing. All that happened was that a ban on funding was lifted. That's it.

The Reckoning

01-23-2009, 02:13 PM

Unless I've read the article wrong, we haven't actually funded a damn thing. All that happened was that a ban on funding was lifted. That's it.

when the levee breaks

jman3000

01-23-2009, 02:37 PM

If President Obama plans to do only the above, then I have no issue.

I know that every life- those of people already born and those still in the womb- is precious to God and that He is going to hold us all accountable, accordingly.

*gags self*

Duff McCartney

01-23-2009, 02:56 PM

I know that every life- those of people already born and those still in the womb- is precious to God and that He is going to hold us all accountable, accordingly.

Then what's your problem? Let "god" judge Obama accordingly and you worry about your own life instead of someone elses.

ratm1221

01-23-2009, 03:03 PM

The main reason I voted for Senator McCain was his pro-life stance.

You guys were out voted. This decision will save millions of lives which out weighs the issue of abortion. The people that are already here are suffering. When you start adopting babies with HIV, I'll start listening to your stance on abortion.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:06 PM

Then what's your problem? Let "god" judge Obama accordingly and you worry about your own life instead of someone elses.

What President Obama does is most certainly between him and Jesus.

That said, I will have to answer to God for whether or not I spoke out against wrongdoing or if I just stood silently by and let it happen.

I have no intention of doing the latter, in any circumstance.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:07 PM

You guys were out voted. This decision will save millions of lives which out weighs the issue of abortion. The people that are already here are suffering. When you start adopting babies with HIV, I'll start listening to your stance on abortion.

I would love to adopt at some point.
I was adopted.

ClingingMars

01-23-2009, 03:10 PM

balli

01-23-2009, 03:16 PM

That said, I will have to answer to God for whether or not I spoke out against wrongdoing or if I just stood silently by and let it happen.
What makes you so special that you know whether other peoples' abortions are morally wrong on a meta-physical level? Enough so that you'd condemn them in this life so as to save your own skin when you have to "answer to God." I hope God gives you the bitch slap of your life(?) when you die.

Blake

01-23-2009, 03:16 PM

That said, I will have to answer to God for whether or not I spoke out against wrongdoing or if I just stood silently by and let it happen.

I have no intention of doing the latter, in any circumstance.

so if you did just stand silently by, would that mean you would be denied entrance into Heaven? or would your mansion be a little bit smaller?

balli

01-23-2009, 03:16 PM

+1

staunchly pro-life, yet another reason that I'm disappointed that Obama one.

-Mars

won.

-balli

ClingingMars

01-23-2009, 03:16 PM

Blake

01-23-2009, 03:18 PM

+1

staunchly pro-life, yet another reason that I'm disappointed that Obama one.

-Mars

yeah I'm glad Obama one myself

+won

-Earth

balli

01-23-2009, 03:19 PM

It's called murder you fucking douchebag.

-Mars

No it isn't. What a deplorably simple, black and white, delusional world you've created for yourself mars.

Blake

01-23-2009, 03:20 PM

It's called murder you fucking douchebag.

-Mars

so if a mom will die if unless the baby is aborted, which do you choose.

I know your answer, but I want to hear it any way because I like where these abortion threads go

I Love Me Some Me

01-23-2009, 03:22 PM

This thread is an abortion.

Duff McCartney

01-23-2009, 03:22 PM

What President Obama does is most certainly between him and Jesus.

That said, I will have to answer to God for whether or not I spoke out against wrongdoing or if I just stood silently by and let it happen.

I have no intention of doing the latter, in any circumstance.

Yes I'm sure you don't. I've never once heard you talk about Darfur or the crisis in Gaza, or the AIDS Epidemic in Africa. You speak out only against shit you care about...not about whether it's wrong or right and in confroms with your religious beliefs.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:25 PM

What makes you so special that you know whether other peoples' abortions are morally wrong on a meta-physical level? Enough so that you'd condemn them in this life so as to save your own skin when you have to "answer to God." I hope God gives you the bitch slap of your life(?) when you die.

All babies are formed in their mother's womb by God.
Abortions end that life and are historically heart wrenching and physically hard on the women that have them.

I want my money to go to doing as CF suggested- educating woman in both career and home health matters and providing medical treatment and provisions so moms can properly care for their babies and be well themselves.

I know there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. But abortion is not the answer.

ratm1221

01-23-2009, 03:28 PM

That said, I will have to answer to God for whether or not I spoke out against wrongdoing or if I just stood silently by and let it happen.

Only god can judge, right? So you wouldn't have to answer to god for not judging someone and speaking out against it. Like all things religious, your beliefs conflict each other.

God doesn't do anything about abortions, death, genocide, disease, innocent children burning to death in their beds because their mother left her curling iron on... but he expects you to? How appropriate.

ChumpDumper

01-23-2009, 03:29 PM

So besides this, what did Bush and the Republicans to to end abortion the six years they were in complete control of the government?

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:30 PM

so if you did just stand silently by, would that mean you would be denied entrance into Heaven? or would your mansion be a little bit smaller?

It has to do with honoring God and standing up for what is right.

I love God and want to see His purpose fulfilled on the earth and abortion is not it.

God instructs us to defend the defenseless and unborn babies definitely fall into that category.
If God had not intervened on my behalf, I would have been aborted.
I know this for a fact because my birth mother told me the story of how God changed her mind.

balli

01-23-2009, 03:32 PM

But abortion is not the answer.
That's more than debatable. I took an undergrad poli sci. class, almost the sole focus of which was abortion. It's a never ending debate with equally plausible arguments on both sides. Personal beliefs aside, that's how I look at it politically, and I despise the haughtiness of anyone, on either side, who would claim to have a lock on the only right answer. The implicit black and white nature of your response is delusional.

But I especially despise it when it's framed in terms of morally condemning other people's perceived sins, as to save your own skin on judgment day. Sickeningly arrogant and selfish way to look at an enormously complex issue.

Shastafarian

01-23-2009, 03:34 PM

All babies are formed in their mother's womb by God.

Fuck!

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:35 PM

The story of Abraham and Isaac offers a simple but powerful example. According to the Bible, Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his "only son, Isaac, whom you love," as a burnt offering. Without argument, Abraham takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded. Of course, we know the happy ending—God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute. Abraham has passed God's test of devotion. He becomes a model of fidelity to God, and his great faith is rewarded through future generations. And yet it is fair to say that if any of us saw a 21st century Abraham raising the knife on the roof of his apartment building, we would call the police; we would wrestle him down; even if we saw him lower the knife at the last minute, we would expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away and charge Abraham with child abuse. We would do so because God doesn't reveal Himself or His angels to all of us in a single moment. We do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that are possible for all of us to know, understanding that a part of what we know to be true—as individuals or communities of faith—will be true for us alone.

balli

01-23-2009, 03:39 PM

The other thing that overshadows this whole debate is the bloodthirsty nature of republicans in general.

Sure, every human life is a miracle, formed in the womb by the hands of God himself, but apparently God makes exceptions for Arabs.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:41 PM

Exodus 1: 15-17; 20-21:

The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live."
The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.
So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.
And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:43 PM

Context?

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:44 PM

Shastafarian

01-23-2009, 03:45 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

Those people like them some abortions. Ballijuana isn't commenting on them being hypocrites.

balli

01-23-2009, 03:45 PM

Modern abortion and the catalysts for it, do not equate with an ancient imperial decree to murder slave's male babys which were already born. angel, you're a fucking psycho.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:46 PM

Context?

1 These are the names of the sons of Israel who went to Egypt with Jacob, each with his family: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphtali; Gad and Asher. 5 The descendants of Jacob numbered seventy [a] in all; Joseph was already in Egypt.
6 Now Joseph and all his brothers and all that generation died, 7 but the Israelites were fruitful and multiplied greatly and became exceedingly numerous, so that the land was filled with them.

8 Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power in Egypt. 9 "Look," he said to his people, "the Israelites have become much too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country."

11 So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread; so the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites 13 and worked them ruthlessly. 14 They made their lives bitter with hard labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their hard labor the Egyptians used them ruthlessly.

15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born [b] you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:47 PM

Veronica, what would you do if you came across a modern day Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son?

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:48 PM

I'm sorry, by context I was asking you to explain to me - in your words preferably - why you had posted that exert.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:48 PM

Abortion does not equate with an ancient imperial decree to murder slave's male babys which were already born. angel, you're .

You are the one who thinks you know better than God Almighty and you accuse me of being foolish.

That would be laughable were it not so sad.

balli

01-23-2009, 03:49 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

Hey off with their fucking heads. Like Shasta said though, I'm not the hypocrite who pretends human life or better, the potential for human life, is invaluably important.

You are the one who thinks you know better than God Almighty and you accuse me of being foolish.
That's ridiculous. My position is all about not knowing anything. I'm not the one claiming to know what is morally right or wrong so as to "answer to God." I don't know anything about God. And as arrogantly as you'd like to think so, you don't either.

ratm1221

01-23-2009, 03:50 PM

Veronica, what would you do if you came across a modern day Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son?

:lol

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:51 PM

I'm sorry, by context I was asking you to explain to me - in your words preferably - why you had posted that exert.

Oh my bad.

I am posting it because I was talking about the importance of honoring God in what I do, even if society is against me. And also to illustrate how obedience to God is rewarded, something I know from personal experience in my own life.

Those midwives are some of my favorite Biblical role models.

ratm1221

01-23-2009, 03:51 PM

You are the one who thinks you know better than God Almighty and you accuse me of being foolish.

That would be laughable were it not so sad.

You are the arrogant one who speaks to god and knows what he is thinking. You will burn in a lake of fire for that blasphemy!

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:52 PM

Its not a joke - there's a point to be made about the pride involved with thinking you understand God's plan enough to infer what someone else is doing is morally wrong.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:54 PM

Veronica, what would you do if you came across a modern day Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son?

I would assume that God had sent me as Angel to say, " Stop, do not harm him!" :)

But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 03:54 PM

Oh my bad.

I am posting it because I was talking about the importance of honoring God in what I do, even if society is against me. And also to illustrate how obedience to God is rewarded, something I know from personal experience in my own life.

Those midwives are some of my favorite Biblical role models.

Is it possible President Obama is trying to do the same? I've actually never heard him say otherwise. While you may believe he's doing something improper, its entirely possible he believes he's doing the right thing in order to save more lives in the long run.

I Love Me Some Me

01-23-2009, 03:56 PM

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 03:58 PM

Is it possible President Obama is trying to do the same? I've actually never heard him say otherwise. While you may believe he's doing something improper, its entirely possible he believes he's doing the right thing in order to save more lives in the long run.

It is possible and I hope it is true.

However, I don't think that excuses me from my obligation to speak up for what I believe to be right.

Shastafarian

01-23-2009, 03:59 PM

Ya know, in the end, I love me some Theocracy.

MannyIsGod

01-23-2009, 04:00 PM

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 04:00 PM

That's ridiculous. My position is all about not knowing anything. I'm not the one claiming to know what is morally right or wrong so as to "answer to God." I don't know anything about God. And as arrogantly as you'd like to think so, you don't either.

Your ignorance is the direct result of your stubborn disregard for God and His Word.

Jesus said plainly that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the source of right direction and there is no other.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 04:02 PM

Sorry to leave abruptly guys but someone else will be taking the computer in about five minutes.

balli

01-23-2009, 04:02 PM

Your ignorance is the direct result of your stubborn disregard for God and His Word.

Jesus said plainly that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the source of right direction and there is no other.

Go to hell.

Ted Bundy

01-23-2009, 04:03 PM

Do we need God to tell us that killing an innocent human being as a matter of convenience is morally wrong?

If it's a human being, and you end it's life....it's morally wrong.

If it's not a human being, you can do whatever you want to it.

... then I learned that all moral judgments are "value judgments," that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either "right" or "wrong." I even read somewhere that the Chief Justice of the United States had written that the American Constitution expressed nothing more than collective value judgments. Believe it or not, I figured out what apparently the Chief Justice couldn't figure out for himself -- that if the rationality of one value judgment was zero, multiplying it by millions would not make it one bit more rational. Nor is there any "reason" to obey the law for anyone, like myself, who has the boldness and daring -- the strength of character -- to throw off its shackles.... I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable "value judgment" that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these "others"? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog's life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as "moral" or "good" and others as "immoral" or "bad"? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me -- after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self.

Shastafarian

01-23-2009, 04:03 PM

Jesus said plainly that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the source of right direction and there is no other.

So did this guy

http://www.nndb.com/people/781/000028697/marshappl.jpg

Blake

01-23-2009, 04:04 PM

I would assume that God had sent me as Angel to say, " Stop, do not harm him!" :)

so if he told you that God told him to kill his son, would you believe him and let him walk or would you call the cops?

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 04:04 PM

By all means speak out - I only hope you apply your standards equally. I feel that you don't do that - especially when you consider some of the actions President Bush has made and how much you support him.

Are you kidding?!!!!!!!!!!???

Ask Bo, my mom, anyone who knows me.

I NEVER cared for president Bush. I voted for him begrudingly in 2004 and ONLY because he was pro-life.
I wouldn't vote in 2000 because Gore supported abortion and I could not stomach the thought of voting for Bush.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 04:06 PM

so if he told you that God told him to kill his son, would you believe him and let him walk or would you call the cops?

I don't deal in hypotheticals.

Blake

01-23-2009, 04:08 PM

I don't deal in hypotheticals.

I know you don't.

It's really a shame.

angel_luv

01-23-2009, 04:10 PM

Bye guys! :)

Shastafarian

01-23-2009, 04:10 PM

SnakeBoy

01-23-2009, 04:12 PM

```

ratm1221

01-23-2009, 04:18 PM

I don't deal in hypotheticals.

Your whole religion is hypothetical.

balli

01-23-2009, 04:21 PM

Your ignorance is the direct result of your stubborn disregard for God and His Word.
You know. I strive to know God. I spend hours and hours pouring over the psalms and gospels. I've read Kierkegaard until my ears bled. Brothers Karamazov three and half times in two years. Took a class on existential Christianity. Read The Idiot twice. Barclay's, The Gospel of Luke. Tolstoy's Resurrection, Confession, What I Believe. I've gone to church. I've gone to my parent's bible study. I've met with a pastor. I've gone to a shrink. I've meditated. I've prayed. I've begged and begged and begged for God to come into my life and I've put myself through an absolute intellectual and spiritual ringer in the pursuit. And at the end of the day I'm a weary and scared agnostic and what you just said is just about the most offensive and stupid thing anybody's ever said to me, on a message board or otherwise.

Fuck you, you simple. fucking. cunt.

hater

01-23-2009, 04:22 PM

so Obama doesn't like babies. nobody's perfect

hater

01-23-2009, 04:23 PM

CuckingFunt

01-23-2009, 04:30 PM

All babies are formed in their mother's womb by God.
Abortions end that life and are historically heart wrenching and physically hard on the women that have them.

I want my money to go to doing as CF suggested- educating woman in both career and home health matters and providing medical treatment and provisions so moms can properly care for their babies and be well themselves.

I know there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. But abortion is not the answer.

Um, I'm not quite sure how I can say this without sounding like a cunt, but please don't attach my name to your beliefs.

The only point of my earlier post is that abortion is not the only service that family planning agencies provide. Or, more specifically, that the president's decision to lift the ban on funding for such agencies is not, in any way, the same thing as killing babies.

CavsSuperFan

01-23-2009, 04:41 PM

I just don’t want to pay for women’s abortions in Saudi Arabia…Why cant Obama & his worshippers understand this?

"The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

ChumpDumper

01-23-2009, 04:45 PM

I just don’t want to pay for women’s abortions in Saudi Arabia…Why cant Obama & his worshippers understand this?There are no abortions in Saudi Arabia to be paid for.

Trainwreck2100

01-23-2009, 05:04 PM

Do we have to call it pro choice, when in actuality it's pro-women's choice. Abortion is so fucking hypocritical

hater

01-23-2009, 05:06 PM

Do we have to call it pro choice, when in actuality it's pro-women's choice. Abortion is so fucking hypocritical

then we would have to change from pro-life to "you gonna have that baby even if you got raped by a werewolf"

balli

01-23-2009, 05:08 PM

I think we should call it: pro-fuck off and mind your own business.

The Reckoning

01-23-2009, 05:10 PM

why doesnt society have cool names like cavaliers and roundheads? now its all pro-shit...

Trainwreck2100

01-23-2009, 05:17 PM

I think we should call it: pro-fuck off and mind your own business.

Pro-women's choice is better.

DarkReign

01-23-2009, 05:24 PM

This thread is an abortion.

:lmao

:tu

DarkReign

01-23-2009, 05:29 PM

Does anyone else hear a low violin playing when people start going into biblical subjects?

...whats that, God?

Blake

01-23-2009, 05:31 PM

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (6 members and 4 guests)
Blake, DarkReign, Creepn, jack sommerset, Melmart1, Crookshanks

hey Crookshanks, what's your opinion on the subject?

jack sommerset

01-23-2009, 05:41 PM

There is all sorts of birth control. When a girl reaches puberty find out what birth control is best,safest,easiest and put her on it. When they hit 18 the girl can decide for herself if she wants to go on or off it. If they have something for the boys do the same.I know Obama wants to teach kids about sex when they hit kindergarten (haha-idiot) but wait until they are atleast 12-13.

Woman should have the right for abortion. Many reasons why.Only example I will give is rape. A 14 year old girl raped by her grandfather should have the right to abort the baby.

johnsmith

01-23-2009, 05:45 PM

Fuck you, you simple. fucking. cunt.

I've been wondering where boutons went..............now I know.

balli

01-23-2009, 05:52 PM

I've been wondering where boutons went..............now I know.
Fuck that. I don't know who that bitch thinks she is telling me or anybody else, in an extremely vindictive, stupid way, that we've rejected God wholesale. That's a pretty fucked up, ultra personal, accusation to make about someone you know nothing about. That stupid bitch and her fucking simple-minded take on my Christianity are an affront of unheralded proportion. Fuck you angel luv.

johnsmith

01-23-2009, 05:53 PM

Fuck that. I don't know who that bitch thinks she is telling me or anybody else, in an extremely vindictive, stupid way, that we've rejected God wholesale. That's a pretty fucked up, ultra personal, accusation to make about someone you know nothing about. That stupid bitch and her fucking simple-minded take on Christianity are an affront to humanity. Fuck you angel luv.

Angel Luv annoys me as much as she annoys everyone else, but I think you're getting a touch worked up on a message board dedicated to the Spurs don't you?

The Reckoning

01-23-2009, 05:57 PM

Fuck you, you simple. fucking. cunt.

maybe that's where you should start.

The Brothers Karamazov is badass, but I dont think reading passages like The Grand Inquisitor will help you any spiritually...

I suggest looking into Buddhism to start off, and then apply it to all the religions, and you'll find a striking connection between everything. after all, the horrible aspects of religion are brought on by the extremists, so don't listen to them. remember that everything is one big illusion, and to find "God," you have to peel the illusion back.

balli

01-23-2009, 05:58 PM

Angel Luv annoys me as much as she annoys everyone else, but I think you're getting a touch worked up on a message board dedicated to the Spurs don't you?

Maybe. But why is someone a message board dedicated to the Spurs sitting back and making accusations about my relationship with God. If she wanted to discuss the politics of abortion, in a thread about the politics of abortion, that's one thing, but she didn't do that. And then she starts judging my life? On a meta-physical level? Nah, I take that shit serious and it ain't happening without me saying something. And I'm definitely not taking it from some brain-washed, fundamentalist weirdo.

jack sommerset

01-23-2009, 06:01 PM

3rd day in office and firing missles into Pakistan. Nice job Obama. Looks like he listened to Bush. I like it. Welcome to the fight.

Wrong thread sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry:lol

balli

01-23-2009, 06:37 PM

The Brothers Karamazov is badass, but I dont think reading passages like The Grand Inquisitor will help you any spiritually...
It pisses me off the way The Grand Inquisitor is often cited to buttress atheistic arguments. I read it as an affirmation of Christ. Anybody who doesn't is missing the point of the ending, IMHO. Whether that helps or not meta-physically, is evident, but it at least provides the illusion of spiritual growth and in a real way, a refined level of religious awareness. When nothing connects on a spiritual level, sometimes the intellectual is all you got.

edit: but I agree, if/when I pick up religious study again, I'll be looking eastward.

The Reckoning

01-23-2009, 06:54 PM

It pisses me off the way The Grand Inquisitor is often cited to buttress atheistic arguments. I read it as an affirmation of Christ.

actually i do too - how he patiently says nothing, listens, and ends with a kiss, but i think it takes a truly open-minded person to realize the symbolism behind it, and i wouldn't recommend it to anybody. it is as it is, and that's dark literature. most would take all of the negative aspects of the Church from the passage and totally disregard the underlying meaning. id start with eastern philosophy to build a sturdy foundation then tackle russian literature, so it would be easier to kind of connect the dots.

Duff McCartney

01-23-2009, 10:44 PM

Jesus said plainly that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the source of right direction and there is no other.

Yeah it also says that the kingdom of Heaven is inside you. So that's my answer. I don't need Jesus or anything else. It's all in me. Forever.

I like how you quoted the Book of Genesis regarding on how not to abort babies. I think it's ridiculous and absurd that you use the Bible to justify your views on anything.

Hell I can just as easily point to a passage where it explicity describes a happy person killing a baby...

Psalm 137:8-9

O Babylon, you will be destroyed.
Happy is the one who pays you back
for what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who takes your babies
and smashes them against the rocks!

Slydragon

01-23-2009, 11:09 PM

Today's International babies can be tomorrow's terrorist.

I see what he did here. :wow

CuckingFunt

01-24-2009, 12:48 PM

Do we have to call it pro choice, when in actuality it's pro-women's choice. Abortion is so fucking hypocritical

There's actually a fair amount of argument in feminist circles about the term "pro-choice" because it implies that every woman who gets pregnant is (socially, economically, politically, etc.) in a position of making that choice, which often isn't the case.

Spurminator

01-24-2009, 01:22 PM

Are you kidding?!!!!!!!!!!???

Ask Bo, my mom, anyone who knows me.

I NEVER cared for president Bush. I voted for him begrudingly in 2004 and ONLY because he was pro-life.
I wouldn't vote in 2000 because Gore supported abortion and I could not stomach the thought of voting for Bush.

Do you feel duped that Bush had eight years to address the abortion issue and nothing happened?

I think there are a lot of voters like you, but I believe your efforts would be best served using your first amendment rights to appeal to public opinion on abortion through protest or other means, than wasting your vote on a wedge issue that politicians sucker you in to thinking they care to do anything about.

jochhejaam

01-24-2009, 05:49 PM

Contrast between the Messiah and Obamamessiah.

History tells us that Jesus gave life to many who were dead.
History will tell us that Obama’s executive order gave death to many who were living.

It was expected.

ElNono

01-24-2009, 07:30 PM

All babies are formed in their mother's womb by God.

Well, not really. I mean, they can be formed in a test tube inside a lab. Is it ok to abort those?

Shastafarian

01-24-2009, 07:53 PM

Well, not really. I mean, they can be formed in a test tube inside a lab. Is it ok to abort those?

That is an excellent question.

jochhejaam

01-24-2009, 07:57 PM

Do you feel duped that Bush had eight years to address the abortion issue and nothing happened?

I think there are a lot of voters like you, but I believe your efforts would be best served using your first amendment rights to appeal to public opinion on abortion through protest or other means, than wasting your vote on a wedge issue that politicians sucker you in to thinking they care to do anything about.

Nothing? Did you read the article Spurminator?
He re-instituted the ban on the "Mexico City policy".

In addition to that he appointed Supreme Court Justices Alito and Roberts, and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that both would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade if it were to come up for a vote.

These actions by President Bush have to be recognized as major and significant decisions for the Right to Life movement.

Are there other things he could have done to show his support for the rights of the unborn that he refrained from?

jochhejaam

01-24-2009, 08:09 PM

I think abortion should be legal and am perfectly okay with it as long as it's in the first trimester...

So in your opinion it's wrong to abort the baby at day 95, but at day 94 (end of the first trimester) it's fine and dandy?

What happened in that 1 day, from 94 to 95, that made it wrong?

Spur-Addict

01-24-2009, 08:14 PM

God blah, blah blah, God, blah. The only issue here is the use of the money.

jochhejaam

01-24-2009, 08:14 PM

Then what's your problem? Let "god" judge Obama accordingly and you worry about your own life instead of someone elses.

What's your problem Duff? Let God judge Angel Luv accordingly, and you worry about your own life instead of hers.

florige

01-24-2009, 08:22 PM

J.T.

01-24-2009, 08:23 PM

Fuck pro-lifers.

J.T.

01-24-2009, 08:28 PM

Fuck pro-lifers.

I'm sorry I was so mean with that post. Jesus certainly wouldn't approve so please accept my apology guys. I just think that if people recognize their current lifestyle can't support properly raising another human life, then they shouldn't bring a child into this world and then have it suffer through a shitty childhood, throw it into adoption or whatever.

Winehole23

01-24-2009, 08:29 PM

Fuck pro-lifers.It's the best way to get more hippie guitarists. :lol

George Gervin's Afro

01-24-2009, 08:59 PM

Pro lifers favor the unborn over the actual living poor children. We want them all to be born they clamor! Just don't ask them for one penny to fund the social programs to feed those children!...

J.T.

01-24-2009, 09:05 PM

It's the best way to get more hippie guitarists. :lol

:toast

jochhejaam

01-25-2009, 12:05 AM

Pro lifers favor the unborn over the actual living poor children. We want them all to be born they clamor! Just don't ask them for one penny to fund the social programs to feed those children!...

Provide a link for the readers of this thread that substantiates your charge that the pro-life crowd is dead-set against feeding poor children.

If you can't, thanks for injecting the hogwash into the discussion.

Trainwreck2100

01-25-2009, 02:06 AM

I'm sorry I was so mean with that post. Jesus certainly wouldn't approve so please accept my apology guys. I just think that if people recognize their current lifestyle can't support properly raising another human life, then they shouldn't bring a child into this world and then have it suffer through a shitty childhood, throw it into adoption or whatever.

There's actually good money in having a baby and selling it off to certain adoption agencies.

balli

01-25-2009, 02:49 AM

If you can't, thanks for injecting the hogwash into the discussion.
It's not hogwash at all, the otherwise bloodthirsty and incompassionate political nature of most pro-lifers leaves a lot to be desired in terms of moral congruity.

Do you really need a link? Southern Strategy and Reaganomics aside, every republican on this board has screamed about socialism at some point or another; which basically translates to: fuck poor black people and their kids.

Trainwreck2100

01-25-2009, 03:01 AM

baseline bum

01-25-2009, 03:42 AM

jochhejaam

01-25-2009, 09:13 AM

It's not hogwash at all, the otherwise bloodthirsty and incompassionate political nature of most pro-lifers leaves a lot to be desired in terms of moral congruity.
A charge was levied against the pro-life group that said they were against feeding poor children. No proof of that was submitted, and that's because there is nothing out there that would substantiate that nonsense.

Do you really need a link? Southern Strategy and Reaganomics aside, every republican on this board has screamed about socialism at some point or another; which basically translates to: fuck poor black people and their kids
Nothing more than hysterical hyperbole from you and George. Must be some new epidemic you two have been struck with.

Duff McCartney

01-25-2009, 11:20 AM

What's your problem Duff? Let God judge Angel Luv accordingly, and you worry about your own life instead of hers.

Sorry Jochhe but I'm not the one making posts about Obamas abortion policy. I've never made a thread to specifically say that Angel_luv is doing this and that and that god will judge her and blah blah blah.

Don't turn the question I had on me because I haven't for a single second criticised her for no reason.

Wild Cobra

01-25-2009, 11:43 AM

Fuck that. I don't know who that bitch thinks she is telling me or anybody else, in an extremely vindictive, stupid way, that we've rejected God wholesale. That's a pretty fucked up, ultra personal, accusation to make about someone you know nothing about. That stupid bitch and her fucking simple-minded take on my Christianity are an affront of unheralded proportion. Fuck you angel luv.
Yes, it is fucked up that you are for killing innocent babies. That is a complete rejection of God! To say otherwise is a flat out lie.

I never understood how libtards can be for abortion and against the death penalty? Kill the innocent and protect the guilty?

Talk about Fucked Up!

Wild Cobra

01-25-2009, 11:46 AM

Do you really need a link? Southern Strategy and Reaganomics aside, every republican on this board has screamed about socialism at some point or another; which basically translates to: fuck poor black people and their kids.
No, you just don't get it.

To aid in a circumstance that causes problems is to promote more of the same poor choices. It's called tough love.

Make it hard to live with such life choices and less people will make those choices!

Shastafarian

01-25-2009, 11:47 AM

No, you just don't get it.

To aid in a circumstance that causes problems is to promote more of the same poor choices. It's called tough love.

Make it hard to live with such life choices and less people will make those choices!

No it isn't. It's called neglect.

Wild Cobra

01-25-2009, 11:49 AM

No it isn't. It's called neglect.

Neglect is what people do who try to raise children without planning to have them. Don't blame the people who don't wish to compound the problem. Blame the people having babies that shouldn't.

Shastafarian

01-25-2009, 11:54 AM

Neglect is what people do who try to raise children without planning to have them. Don't blame the people who don't wish to compound the problem. Blame the people having babies that shouldn't.

You don't know what neglect means do you?

exstatic

01-25-2009, 01:28 PM

Do we have to call it pro choice, when in actuality it's pro-women's choice. Abortion is so fucking hypocritical
Do we have to call it pro-life, when most of it's adherants support every war that comes down the pike, and capital punishment, to boot?

Blake

01-25-2009, 02:29 PM

Well, not really. I mean, they can be formed in a test tube inside a lab. Is it ok to abort those?

A.L. doesnt believe in answering hypotheticals

Bob Lanier

01-25-2009, 05:20 PM

I'm not a big fan of Mr. Obama, but bless him for this.

jochhejaam

01-25-2009, 07:16 PM

Sorry Jochhe
No problem Duff.

but I'm not the one making posts about Obamas abortion policy.
Never said you were.

I've never made a thread to specifically say that Angel_luv is doing this and that and that god will judge her and blah blah blah.
Noted.

Don't turn the question I had on me because I haven't for a single second criticised her for no reason.
She exercised her freedom of speech by saying that she doesn't appreciate that the tax money she pays will be used to end life that to her is sacred.
She explained her reasoning for taking exception to Obama's action, yet you chastised her for doing so by telling her to worry about her own life instead of someone elses.
What you refer to as "worrying about someone elses life" is merely dissenting opinion, opinion that is protected by our Constitution, and although you may disagree with her opinion, you certainly don't want to stifle dissent.

ploto

01-25-2009, 08:03 PM

The main reason I voted for Senator McCain was his pro-life stance.

Death penalty and torture are pro-life?

Or are you choosing which lives have more value?

I am pro-life but I have compassion which seems to be lacking in many who claim to be. Many of the very same people who want to protect these unborn babies seem to be the ones who want least to fund any programs to help these women raise these babies once they are born- as if the obligation of protection ends at birth.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other men--extortionists, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'. But the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

jochhejaam

01-25-2009, 09:15 PM

Death penalty and torture are pro-life?

Separate issues, and arguments most often used by those supporting abortion.

Roughly 700 death row inmates have been executed over the last 10 years.

Roughly 13,000,000 million abortions have taken place over the last 10 years.

That works out to 18,571 babies aborted for every Death Row inmate executed.
That also works out to 3,561 babies aborted each day, and 1 Death Row inmate executed every 5 days.

Her concern is for human life. She could only support one of the candidates.
Based on her convictions and concerns, and Obama's support for abortion rights, she made the correct choice.

Trainwreck2100

01-25-2009, 09:15 PM

Do we have to call it pro-life, when most of it's adherants support every war that comes down the pike, and capital punishment, to boot?

pro-baby???

Duff McCartney

01-25-2009, 10:33 PM

She exercised her freedom of speech by saying that she doesn't appreciate that the tax money she pays will be used to end life that to her is sacred.
She explained her reasoning for taking exception to Obama's action, yet you chastised her for doing so by telling her to worry about her own life instead of someone elses.
What you refer to as "worrying about someone elses life" is merely dissenting opinion, opinion that is protected by our Constitution, and although you may disagree with her opinion, you certainly don't want to stifle dissent.

Yes I do. And I will tell that to anyone who says that "He is going to hold us all accountable, accordingly" then critcises a person for it.

Up until very recently I've always tried to give angel_luv the benefit of the doubt but I don't anymore. I see that her facade of being nice and loving is nothing more than a cover for her judgemental ways regarding a persons lack of faith.

Even ballijuana knows it to be true. I hold her and her personal beliefs in utter contempt not because of what they are. But because of how she does think she KNOWS everyone is wrong. I'm all for someone having their beliefs and their opinions and whatever else they want. It's not my place to tell them they are wrong in what they believe. But it's my OBLIGATION to stand up when they try to influence and judge other people for what they don't believe.

Personally, I couldn't give a shit what she believes..or what you believe. I hold christianity on the same level as scientology. Neither is more true than the other. My problem and I know I'm not alone, is that her uttering things like "You've ignored Gods commandments" and blah blah blah is complete bullshit.

ploto

01-25-2009, 11:45 PM

Separate issues, and arguments most often used by those supporting abortion.

Roughly 700 death row inmates have been executed over the last 10 years.

Roughly 13,000,000 million abortions have taken place over the last 10 years.

That works out to 18,571 babies aborted for every Death Row inmate executed.

That also works out to 3,561 babies aborted each day, and 1 Death Row inmate executed every 5 days.

They are not separate issues- they are all issues of life. Your argument is used by Republicans who claim to be pro-life but who support war, torture, and the death penalty and who care nothing of the quality of life of these children. You do not even care if they have health care so how do you really care about their lives?

If you believe that every single human life has infinite value then numbers do not matter. One million lives has no more value than 1000 or 100.

ploto

01-25-2009, 11:54 PM

I see that her facade of being nice and loving is nothing more than a cover for her judgemental ways regarding a persons lack of faith.

I think when the Bible talks of not judging, it means precisely of what you refer. It does not mean that we should not discern right from wrong or standup for what we believe to be moral, but that it is not our place to judge anyone else's faith or what is in their hearts. Simply based upon what someone says or does, we do not know the integrity of their search or their attempts to discover the meaning in their own lives.

I do think it mostly comes from what she is told at her church. I have asserted that indeed what she believes is not the Bible or God, but her minister and whatever he says the Bible or God means. That is why she can not formulate her own response to anything and she does not really "listen" to what anyone else writes. She is here to evangelize you and convert you- not have an intelligent discussion with you.

Trainwreck2100

01-25-2009, 11:55 PM

They are not separate issues- they are all issues of life. Your argument is used by Republicans who claim to be pro-life but who support war, torture, and the death penalty and who care nothing of the quality of life of these children. You do not even care if they have health care so how do you really care about their lives?

If you believe that every single human life has infinite value then numbers do not matter. One million lives has no more value than 1000 or 100.

How are you any different, you bitch about war, death penalty, and torture, yet you smile upon abortion. If you believe that every single human life has infinite value then numbers do not matter. One million lives has no more value than 1000 or 100.

ploto

01-26-2009, 12:07 AM

How are you any different, you bitch about war, death penalty, and torture, yet you smile upon abortion. If you believe that every single human life has infinite value then numbers do not matter. One million lives has no more value than 1000 or 100.

I do not smile upon abortion - you must have never read my posts. I oppose all forms of action that damage life- abortion, war, torture, no health care, etc... I just think that the Republican party took the abortion issue as a way to get a block of voters. They had 6 years of control over the White House and the Congress and did nothing to lessen the number of abortions in this country. Their claims are not supported by their actions. My views are consistent- I challenge those who are not.

I am pro-life but I have compassion which seems to be lacking in many who claim to be. Many of the very same people who want to protect these unborn babies seem to be the ones who want least to fund any programs to help these women raise these babies once they are born- as if the obligation of protection ends at birth.

ElNono

01-26-2009, 01:31 AM

A.L. doesnt believe in answering hypotheticals

Nothing hypothetical about my question. It's a fact that insemination exists and happens right now.

koriwhat

01-26-2009, 05:00 AM

jochhejaam

01-26-2009, 07:49 AM

They are not separate issues- they are all issues of life. Your argument is used by Republicans who claim to be pro-life but who support war, torture, and the death penalty and who care nothing of the quality of life of these children.

Foolishness, I don't know of a single person that support/likes war, unfortunately, to avoid destruction (not talking about Iraq) at times it is a necessity. The POTUS has an obligation to do whatever is necessary to protect the people. I'm sure the current President would agree with that.

You do not even care if they have health care so how do you really care about their lives?
False accusation (if not rescinded that would make you a liar. Would that bother you?).

Some form of Health care is currently available to all children in our Country.

If you believe that every single human life has infinite value then numbers do not matter. One million lives has no more value than 1000 or 100.
So God is no more disturbed by the 25,000,000 abortions that take place worldwide every year than if only 1 abortion had occured.

A foolish thought indeed (a pattern has developed here)

You are in a boat with two people; one is a best friend who you consider a God-send, the other is a convicted, remorseless rapist, murderer.
Both go overboard and you have the ability to save one or the other, not both;
Would you be inclined to throw the life-saving device to one over the other?

MiamiHeat

01-26-2009, 10:28 AM

why, why in the hell are we funding china for anything?

we have our own freaking problems and we are sending taxpayer cash to help china?

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 10:39 AM

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 10:41 AM

Only god can judge, right? So you wouldn't have to answer to god for not judging someone and speaking out against it. Like all things religious, your beliefs conflict each other.

God doesn't do anything about abortions, death, genocide, disease, innocent children burning to death in their beds because their mother left her curling iron on... but he expects you to? How appropriate.

+1
+1
+1

Angel Luv is seriously drinking that kool-aid ain't she.

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 10:43 AM

It has to do with honoring God and standing up for what is right.

I love God and want to see His purpose fulfilled on the earth and abortion is not it.

God instructs us to defend the defenseless and unborn babies definitely fall into that category.
If God had not intervened on my behalf, I would have been aborted.
I know this for a fact because my birth mother told me the story of how God changed her mind.

LOL so why doesn't GOD INTEVERNE with all aborted babies mamas before they get it done? Cuz you and your mama are special in God's eyes?
LOL

Delusions are a powerful thing.

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 10:53 AM

Angel Luv, why do you strike me as the type of self righteous christian nut that thinks bombing an abortion clinic would be prim and proper?

Kriz-Maxima

01-26-2009, 11:07 AM

You are in a boat with two people; one is a best friend who you consider a God-send, the other is a convicted, remorseless rapist, murderer.
Both go overboard and you have the ability to save one or the other, not both;
Would you be inclined to throw the life-saving device to one over the other?

If you refer to yourself as a good christian doing what God and the bible ask you to, then you throw the life saving device to one and then jump to get the other.

If you are unwilling to jump then stop talking in the name of God.

angel_luv

01-26-2009, 01:40 PM

What a shame. I'm not saying this is how you feel but you basically put unborn fetuses above our soldiers.

Wow- this thread grew leaps and bounds over the weekend.
The babies cannot speak for themselves, whereas at least the people can choose whether or not to join the military.
Furthermore, Kerry was incredibly wishy washy with his campaign.
His stance changed with every audience whose questions he answered.

I had no confidence in Kerry putting an end to the war, so felt that we would remain at war, regardless of which candidate was elected.

For the record, I opposed us going to war with Iraq- all the more so after we went anyway, even though no weapons of mass destruction were found.

angel_luv

01-26-2009, 01:42 PM

Um, I'm not quite sure how I can say this without sounding like a cunt, but please don't attach my name to your beliefs.

The only point of my earlier post is that abortion is not the only service that family planning agencies provide. Or, more specifically, that the president's decision to lift the ban on funding for such agencies is not, in any way, the same thing as killing babies.

I'm sorry. I meant only to credit you with what I felt to be your genuine concern for womens' wellbeing.
It was not my intention to speak for you.

Wild Cobra

01-26-2009, 01:55 PM

Do we have to call it pro-life, when most of it's adherants support every war that comes down the pike, and capital punishment, to boot?
I agree with you that we name things improperly. Now, I ask that you apply the same standards to the names of the things the left comes up with. Talk about improperly named...

Wild Cobra

01-26-2009, 01:59 PM

+1
+1
+1

Angel Luv is seriously drinking that kool-aid ain't she.

I disagree. I would say she has a heart. Something most liberals don't have.

Wild Cobra

01-26-2009, 02:01 PM

I never understood how libtards can be for abortion and against the death penalty? Kill the innocent and protect the guilty?

Talk about Fucked Up!
Anyone?

Please... This silence is deafening!

angel_luv

01-26-2009, 02:02 PM

Death penalty and torture are pro-life?

I am strongly anti- death penalty, which was the reason I would not vote for Bush in 2000, since he never granted clemency at all as his time as Govenor.
I doubt all those convictions were correct or that there was no situation which he could have commuted death to a life sentence.

But again with the death penalty, much as I want to see it abolished, people know it exists and so that is the risk they take when they commit murder.

Babies, on the other hand, are completely defenseless.

For those claiming that all pro-life advocates are only concerned with unborn babies:
I was raised from age 3-18 with foster siblings, several of whom have been my only family at various stages of my life. ( Especially in recent years before I met Bo and when my mom was away in China serving as a missionary.)

Due in great part to my closeness to my sisters ( we long ago dropped the "foster"), I have a heart for the wellbeing of all children, those already born and those still in the womb.

I want to have at least five kids. I want to be pregnant. I want to adopt. And also I would like to be foster parent at some point.
I really love kids.

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 02:05 PM

Those poor kids. Sadly they will have your religious views crammed down their throats just because they happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

angel_luv

01-26-2009, 02:14 PM

Three things:

1) It is true that I cannot see any of your hearts and to those of you who I seemed to condemn as a person, I do apologise.
I may be over zealous in my approach at times. I will try to be wiser about that.

2) I one hundred percent, absolutely, and with no apology stick with my stance that abortion is the murder of innocent children whose life was purposely created by God. As such, abortion ought to have no place in our country or the world.

3)I know you guys don't enjoy the fact that I insert God into everything, but the reality of my life is that Jesus is the center of everything.
And if that lessens any of your opinions of me, I will live with that.

Heath Ledger

01-26-2009, 02:18 PM

angel_luv

01-26-2009, 02:23 PM

If there is one way to be "judged" by peers its when religion or politics are discussed.
Everyone has different views, morals, and opinions. If you are willing to throw them out there, just be willing to hear from those who strongly disagree with you. I'm sure you are a good person.

Thank you. :)

I am very opinionated and could stand to be a better listener.

My fiancee is too kind to ever say that I could listen better, but he would be right to.

spursfan09

01-26-2009, 02:50 PM

Then what's your problem? Let "god" judge Obama accordingly and you worry about your own life instead of someone elses.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Spurminator

01-26-2009, 03:04 PM

Anyone?

Please... This silence is deafening!

If we kept death row inmates in the wombs of women who didn't want to keep them there, and they could not be sustained outside of that environment, then I would fully support the death penalty.

JoeChalupa

01-26-2009, 03:06 PM

It has a life of its own.

JoeChalupa

01-26-2009, 03:07 PM

I'm NOT for abortion but I'm pro choice. Here we go again.

CuckingFunt

01-26-2009, 03:50 PM

I agree with you that we name things improperly. Now, I ask that you apply the same standards to the names of the things the left comes up with. Talk about improperly named...

Examples? Or is this just a random, baseless "Libtard" attack?

Anyone?

Please... This silence is deafening!

I'm curious as to who you've ever met that is actually for abortion. I've yet to encounter a single such person.

Being pro-choice, or, more accurately, supporting reproductive justice, is not the same thing as being for abortions. At all. I absolutely believe that the decision to have an abortion should only be made after very careful consideration. And I absolutely believe that the ultimate goal should be to educate and empower women to take an active role in family planning -- to have the knowledge and tools necessary to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy, so that they (we) are hopefully not faced with the decision of aborting, adoption, neglect, abandonment, and on and on. I do not support abortion as a means of birth control, or as a back-up plan to allow us irresponsibility.

Of course, I also support the right to abortion in situations that go beyond a broken condom or birth control failure. If the pregnancy is a threat to the mother's health, there's no question in my mind that abortion should be an option. Additionally, in cases of rape and incest, I can't even imagine the toll it must take, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to carry a child to term. No one (blatant feminist card: especially no man) should ever be allowed to tell a woman or young girl that she has to live with that for nine months.

As to the second half of your question, no, I do not support the death penalty. Not because I want to protect criminals, but because I see absolutely zero benefit to capital punishment. None. It doesn't defer criminal behavior. It doesn't save money, as statistics have shown that the appeal process costs far more than incarcerating a prisoner for life. It doesn't reduce prison crowding anywhere near as much as abandoning this silly "war on drugs" would. All it does is feed into our obsession with vengeance, which I find to be every bit as troubling as the motivations that lead most death row inmates to their actions, and allow the government to dehumanize members of our community.

And that's without even addressing the issue of flawed evidence and errant convictions.

koriwhat

01-26-2009, 03:57 PM

2) I one hundred percent, absolutely, and with no apology stick with my stance that abortion is the murder of innocent children whose life was purposely created by God. As such, abortion ought to have no place in our country or the world.

what if that life is to be purposely taken by god too in the act of abortion? who's to say it isn't?

when we look at things this way it's more of a no-one-will-ever-know type situation. and this is the path most here are going down with their arguments towards you. the "unknown". is it or isn't it all meant to be? a predestined world.

i say fuck it! we are all animals and we should all decide what's right for ourselves without intervening on others. my brother is a very religious fool and having to grow up around his judgments of me totally made me despise religion and to this day i still do. i believe in myself, the good i can accomplish, and the god of my choice. to him he believes in not judging others by judging others because as far as i can see most religious people are nothing more then hypocrites blinded by their own insecurities and when they find "god" they think they are now somehow above man and can judge men accordingly. what they forget is the teachings they've adopted like "thou shall not judge" and they go around building temples the size of mansions and allow their priests to drive around in mercedes and rape little boys.

i know you're a good person angel_luv and i know nothing here will sway you from your stance and that's exactly what i'm not trying to do. perspective is a bitch!

we've got the keys to unlock the doors between us and god and if you'd like to one day open that door then lsd will be waiting. i for one have already enjoyed pure bliss in "the void" and lets just say the god i found was myself but not myself. very hard to explain. search for nothing and you will find everything!

balli

01-26-2009, 04:16 PM

we've got the keys to unlock the doors between us and god and if you'd like to one day open that door then lsd will be waiting.

:lol

DarkReign

01-26-2009, 05:21 PM

I'm curious as to who you've ever met that is actually for abortion. I've yet to encounter a single such person.

Being pro-choice, or, more accurately, supporting reproductive justice, is not the same thing as being for abortions. At all. I absolutely believe that the decision to have an abortion should only be made after very careful consideration. And I absolutely believe that the ultimate goal should be to educate and empower women to take an active role in family planning -- to have the knowledge and tools necessary to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy, so that they (we) are hopefully not faced with the decision of aborting, adoption, neglect, abandonment, and on and on. I do not support abortion as a means of birth control, or as a back-up plan to allow us irresponsibility.

Of course, I also support the right to abortion in situations that go beyond a broken condom or birth control failure. If the pregnancy is a threat to the mother's health, there's no question in my mind that abortion should be an option. Additionally, in cases of rape and incest, I can't even imagine the toll it must take, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to carry a child to term. No one (blatant feminist card: especially no man) should ever be allowed to tell a woman or young girl that she has to live with that for nine months.

As to the second half of your question, no, I do not support the death penalty. Not because I want to protect criminals, but because I see absolutely zero benefit to capital punishment. None. It doesn't defer criminal behavior. It doesn't save money, as statistics have shown that the appeal process costs far more than incarcerating a prisoner for life. It doesn't reduce prison crowding anywhere near as much as abandoning this silly "war on drugs" would. All it does is feed into our obsession with vengeance, which I find to be every bit as troubling as the motivations that lead most death row inmates to their actions, and allow the government to dehumanize members of our community.

And that's without even addressing the issue of flawed evidence and errant convictions.

Epic.

ploto

01-26-2009, 06:21 PM

Some form of Health care is currently available to all children in our Country.
Quality preventive health care for all children does not exist. If you think it does, you are kidding yourself.

You are in a boat with two people; one is a best friend who you consider a God-send, the other is a convicted, remorseless rapist, murderer.
Both go overboard and you have the ability to save one or the other, not both; Would you be inclined to throw the life-saving device to one over the other?
Both lives have the same value in the eyes of God-- my viewpoint means nothing- it is flawed.

ploto

01-26-2009, 06:27 PM

But again with the death penalty, much as I want to see it abolished, people know it exists and so that is the risk they take when they commit murder.

And what about our government putting to death innocent people. Shouldn't that upset you- using your tax dollars to pay someone to kill another person all in your name as a citizen?

If you want to say you voted for McCain because of his views on abortion, then say that, but do not call him pro-life.

George Gervin's Afro

01-26-2009, 06:30 PM

If we only let women vote on abortion I wonder what the outcome would be?

why aren't conservatives pro protection? protection = fewer abortions.

jochhejaam

01-26-2009, 06:43 PM

If you refer to yourself as a good christian doing what God and the bible ask you to, then you throw the life saving device to one and then jump to get the other.

If you are unwilling to jump then stop talking in the name of God.

That’s the beauty of an internet forum; you can totally miss the point of something, take a mighty swing at it anyway, hitting nothing, and still leave the thread feeling as if you were clever.

:clap

jochhejaam

01-26-2009, 06:49 PM

Both lives have the same value in the eyes of God-- my viewpoint means nothing- it is flawed.

Nice dodge, about what I expected.

If you had honestly answered the question as it was posed it would have shattered your premise of each life holding equal value.

Kriz-Maxima

01-26-2009, 07:00 PM

That’s the beauty of an internet forum; you can totally miss the point of something, take a mighty swing at it anyway, hitting nothing, and still leave the thread feeling as if you were clever.

:clap

Hell yeah!

George Gervin's Afro

01-26-2009, 07:11 PM

Nice dodge, about what I expected.

If you had honestly answered the question as it was posed it would have shattered your premise of each life holding equal value.

In other words you asked a question that you already knew the answer to? Can I pose a question that leads you to my conclusion?

jochhejaam

01-26-2009, 07:59 PM

In other words you asked a question that you already knew the answer to?
No George, in my own words, I came to that conclusion "after" she dodged the question.
(Play as often as you like George, it's on the house).

Can I pose a question that leads you to my conclusion?
I don't know George, can you?

ElNono

01-26-2009, 08:35 PM

All babies are formed in their mother's womb by God.

Well, not really. I mean, they can be formed in a test tube inside a lab. Is it ok to abort those?

<crickets chirping>

clambake

01-26-2009, 08:39 PM

gods test tubes.

SnakeBoy

01-26-2009, 08:44 PM

<crickets chirping>

Perhaps I can help answer your question. The friction between the penis and vagina is a required ingredient in the creation of a soul. So it is fine to kill those soulless test tube babies since they are an abomination.

MaNuMaNiAc

01-26-2009, 08:51 PM

ElNono

01-26-2009, 08:57 PM

Perhaps I can help answer your question. The friction between the penis and vagina is a required ingredient in the creation of a soul. So it is fine to kill those soulless test tube babies since they are an abomination.

You're just a god-hating prick... just saying... :lol

ratm1221

01-26-2009, 09:25 PM

Additionally, in cases of rape and incest, I can't even imagine the toll it must take, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to carry a child to term. No one (blatant feminist card: especially no man) should ever be allowed to tell a woman or young girl that she has to live with that for nine months.

Maybe god willed that the girl was raped so she could bring another of gods children into the world. So, indirectly... God rapes women.

koriwhat

01-27-2009, 12:07 AM

Maybe god willed that the girl was raped so she could bring another of gods children into the world. So, indirectly... God rapes women.

it's all predestined anyhow right? haha.

Buddy Holly

01-27-2009, 04:48 AM

Gotta love the brain washing powers religion has on people. Almost cult like, huh?

johnsmith

01-27-2009, 09:43 AM

Gotta love the brain washing powers religion has on people. Almost cult like, huh?

When does the next Chili's open up in SA?

I Love Me Some Me

01-27-2009, 09:45 AM

Still?

Wild Cobra

01-27-2009, 09:55 AM

Examples? Or is this just a random, baseless "Libtard" attack?

I'll give you one. "Fairnness Doctrine." Absolutely nothing fair about it. It sounds nice, and reasons are given to make it sound fair, but only fools believe it.

I'm curious as to who you've ever met that is actually for abortion. I've yet to encounter a single such person.

Yep, people will claim the are not for it. Well, I'm not for murder either. There are very few reasons why I would murder anyone. But there are a few I would if it were legal.

To destroy innocence is flat out evil. I can never approve of it.

Wild Cobra

01-27-2009, 09:57 AM

<crickets chirping>

You obviously ignore the spiritual aspect. Can you deny we all have a life force within us that defies known science?

Shastafarian

01-27-2009, 10:22 AM

Can you deny we all have a life force within us that defies known science?

:rollin

You've seen way too many movies.

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 10:23 AM

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 10:27 AM

Exodus 1: 15-17; 20-21:

Note: God did not grant their wishes because they did the right thing. He granted their wishes because they were fearful of him.

Wild Cobra

01-27-2009, 10:50 AM

:rollin

You've seen way too many movies.
I'm sorry for you. You obviously never had a spiritual awakening. I have.

koriwhat

01-27-2009, 10:59 AM

I'm sorry for you. You obviously never had a spiritual awakening. I have.

lsd's a hell of a drug. god '98 was a fun yr indeed and a very enlightening one too.

ploto

01-27-2009, 11:27 AM

If you had honestly answered the question as it was posed it would have shattered your premise of each life holding equal value.

No, it wouldn't have. Your question is invalid because I am talking about God's view on the value of human life and you are talking about a human's view on the value of life. Every life God creates is priceless in His eyes and He views them all in that way. Humans make the mistake of saying certain lives are more valuable than others. If you give me a hypothetical situation "for God" then I will be happy to answer it but any decision a human makes is through a flawed perspective.

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 11:37 AM

And what about our government putting to death innocent people. Shouldn't that upset you- using your tax dollars to pay someone to kill another person all in your name as a citizen?

If you want to say you voted for McCain because of his views on abortion, then say that, but do not call him pro-life.

Ploto, your nitpicking is nonsense.

You know very well that pro-life is a term associated with ones stance on abortion.
Since Senator McCain opposes abortion I am entirely accurate in labeling him pro life.

I never said he anything about whether Senator McCain was pro- death penalty or anti death penalty.

ploto

01-27-2009, 11:49 AM

You know very well that pro-life is a term associated with ones stance on abortion.

Since Senator McCain opposes abortion I am entirely accurate in labeling him pro life.

You are missing the entire point. As someone who is pro-life I am bothered by the political use of the term to apply to those who oppose abortion but who do not oppose the death penalty or torture or other issues that just as clearly threaten the sanctity of human life. If you were truly, fully pro-life, you could not call McCain pro-life, any moreso than you could rightfully call Bush pro-life. This inconsistency in policy as not really holding to any one ideal is a big part of the conversation on the issue.

I also noticed that you did not answer my question about being as equally bothered by your government killing someone in your name as a citizen, especially when we all know innocent people have been put to death through the death penalty.

Shastafarian

01-27-2009, 11:52 AM

I'm sorry for you. You obviously never had a spiritual awakening. I have.

Oh you're one of "those" people.

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 12:02 PM

You know. I strive to know God. I spend hours and hours pouring over the psalms and gospels. I've read Kierkegaard until my ears bled. Brothers Karamazov three and half times in two years. Took a class on existential Christianity. Read The Idiot twice. Barclay's, The Gospel of Luke. Tolstoy's Resurrection, Confession, What I Believe. I've gone to church. I've gone to my parent's bible study. I've met with a pastor. I've gone to a shrink. I've meditated. I've prayed. I've begged and begged and begged for God to come into my life and I've put myself through an absolute intellectual and spiritual ringer in the pursuit. And at the end of the day I'm a weary and scared agnostic and what you just said is just about the most offensive and stupid thing anybody's ever said to me, on a message board or otherwise.

Fuck you, you simple. fucking. cunt.

Dostoyevsky is great. And Kierkegaard is wayyy too depressing. I think he couldn't reconcile his existentialism with his religion without depression/angst.

koriwhat

01-27-2009, 12:06 PM

No, it wouldn't have. Your question is invalid because I am talking about God's view on the value of human life and you are talking about a human's view on the value of life.

god's view? i don't get it... am i retarded or am i just missing something here? so this all encompassing god actually has a view on such minuscule things as our lives and what we do with them? and not only that but you know his/her/its view on such a subject? damn and i thought i have done too many drugs.

Every life God creates is priceless in His eyes and He views them all in that way.

so your god or god is human or an animal or an insect or something with eyes atleast? wow. mine is purely metaphysical, an ideology if you will.

If you give me a hypothetical situation "for God" then I will be happy to answer it but any decision a human makes is through a flawed perspective.

hypothetical huh? open the bible up and please by all means tell me you believe every damn thing in there. hypothetically of course.

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 12:07 PM

You are missing the entire point. As someone who is pro-life I am bothered by the political use of the term to apply to those who oppose abortion but who do not oppose the death penalty or torture or other issues that just as clearly threaten the sanctity of human life. If you were truly, fully pro-life, you could not call McCain pro-life, any moreso than you could rightfully call Bush pro-life. This inconsistency in policy as not really holding to any one ideal is a big part of the conversation on the issue.

I also noticed that you did not answer my question about being as equally bothered by your government killing someone in your name as a citizen, especially when we all know innocent people have been put to death through the death penalty.

You might not like the use of the term but it is what it is and it is widely used as it is, so concerning yourself over it, in my opinion is a waste of energy.

When I say I am pro-life people know that I am anti-abortion.
So people know that I am against the death penalty- which I am 100% in all circumstances- I say that I am anti death penalty.

Say we were to survey 100 people on the street and ask what they think someone means when they say they are "pro-life."
My guess is that at least 95% of them will say that means the person is against abortion.

I highly doubt any of the 100 would associate the term with an individuals stance on the death penalty because the term is not used in that context in discussions- at least none I have ever heard of.

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 12:10 PM

If the rest of you feel I am wrong, please say so.

I am really curious to know.

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:11 PM

Yep, people will claim the are not for it. Well, I'm not for murder either. There are very few reasons why I would murder anyone. But there are a few I would if it were legal.

I bet you would

To destroy innocence is flat out evil. I can never approve of it.

echoing CF, I don't think anyone approves of killing babies....

but abortion isn't a black and white issue and you are a fool if you look at it as such.

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:13 PM

You obviously ignore the spiritual aspect. Can you deny we all have a life force within us that defies known science?

yes

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 12:18 PM

Both lives have the same value in the eyes of God-- my viewpoint means nothing- it is flawed.

Yes, but we must see things from our own eyes, no? I think in this case, it would be acceptable, both for yourself and for the rest of society, to choose the individual more likely to be a 'better' person, if you were in fact forced to choose.

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 12:21 PM

I'll give you one. "Fairnness Doctrine." Absolutely nothing fair about it. It sounds nice, and reasons are given to make it sound fair, but only fools believe it.

Yep, people will claim the are not for it. Well, I'm not for murder either. There are very few reasons why I would murder anyone. But there are a few I would if it were legal.

To destroy innocence is flat out evil. I can never approve of it.

You're for the death penalty, right? Is it your contention that everyone who is killed by the death penalty was guilty?

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:23 PM

I'm sorry for you. You obviously never had a spiritual awakening. I have.

now if only you would have a mental awakening

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 12:26 PM

You might not like the use of the term but it is what it is and it is widely used as it is, so concerning yourself over it, in my opinion is a waste of energy.

When I say I am pro-life people know that I am anti-abortion.
So people know that I am against the death penalty- which I am 100% in all circumstances- I say that I am anti death penalty.

Say we were to survey 100 people on the street and ask what they think someone means when they say they are "pro-life."
My guess is that at least 95% of them will say that means the person is against abortion.

I highly doubt any of the 100 would associate the term with an individuals stance on the death penalty because the term is not used in that context in discussions- at least none I have ever heard of.

You answer questions Luv, but you always make sure to avoid the obvious implications behind them. Why don't you respond to his contention that you should not just support politicians due to a pro or anti-abortion stance? Do you take into account support for the death penalty, for wars, for torture when you look at these politicians?

Winehole23

01-27-2009, 12:34 PM

You're for the death penalty, right? Is it your contention that everyone who is killed by the death penalty was guilty?It's his position that a few mistakes are the necessary price of law and order. The only alternative is anarchy.

Improper incarcerations happen from time to time. Use that as a test, then you would be one to advocate no penalties, in fear of those very few improperly jailed. Eliminate law enforcement. Simply have a chaotic society.

Nothing is ever perfect. It's a chance we must all live with to ensure a better society.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3056864&postcount=149

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:37 PM

You're for the death penalty, right? Is it your contention that everyone who is killed by the death penalty was guilty?

no, but that should not be a reason to get rid of the death penalty.

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:39 PM

It's his position that a few mistakes are the necessary price of law and order. The only alternative is anarchy.

that's a horrible view point.

keep the law, but don't live with the mistakes. fix the mistakes.

that said, I'm not really for the death penalty at this time.

Blake

01-27-2009, 12:45 PM

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 12:47 PM

You answer questions Luv, but you always make sure to avoid the obvious implications behind them. Why don't you respond to his contention that you should not just support politicians due to a pro or anti-abortion stance? Do you take into account support for the death penalty, for wars, for torture when you look at these politicians?

I believe I answered that already.

When it came to Bush, I was against his views on the death penalty and the war.

But far as I could discern from his platform in 2004, Kerry was for the death penalty and for the war too, so in a sense those were moot points.

Because both candidates spoke in support of the death penalty and continuing the war ( or at least could not assure me that they had serious intentions otherwise), I had to accept that my vote was not going to affect immediate change in either of those areas.

Therefore, I cast my vote according to a cause which mattered greatly to me and on which the candidates definitely differed.

Wild Cobra

01-27-2009, 12:47 PM

You're for the death penalty, right? Is it your contention that everyone who is killed by the death penalty was guilty?

I already answered such a issue.

Something else on it though. If I were wrongfully found guilty, I would rather be executed than spend my life in prison. Wouldn't you?

Shastafarian

01-27-2009, 12:56 PM

Something else on it though. If I were wrongfully found guilty, I would rather be executed than spend my life in prison. Wouldn't you?

:lol

I didn't think someone would take it that far but I'm not surprised it was you.

ratm1221

01-27-2009, 01:05 PM

If the rest of you feel I am wrong, please say so.

I am really curious to know.

I think you underestimate peoples ability to think for themselves. I'm sure you would get a very broad range of answers on such a debated issues as "pro-life." So no, I don't think if you surveyed people you would get abortion, abortion, abortion 95 times.

Blake

01-27-2009, 01:06 PM

I already answered such a issue.

Something else on it though. If I were wrongfully found guilty, I would rather be executed than spend my life in prison. Wouldn't you?

sure, because your viewpoint = everyone else's

but let's strap you down, get the needles ready, start the drip and then ask you again if you would still rather die or spend the rest of your life in prison. Easy to say that while sitting there typing on a Spurs basketball board.

ratm1221

01-27-2009, 01:06 PM

I already answered such a issue.

Something else on it though. If I were wrongfully found guilty, I would rather be executed than spend my life in prison. Wouldn't you?

Your mind is your prison, Wild Cobra. So please kill yourself. With a spoon preferably.

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 01:08 PM

I think you underestimate peoples ability to think for themselves. I'm sure you would get a very broad range of answers on such a debated issues as "pro-life." So no, I don't think if you surveyed people you would get abortion, abortion, abortion 95 times.

Fair enough. Thanks for your response.

This was the first site and options that came up when I searched for pro life on Yahoo

Also try:pro life vs pro choice,pro life march washington dc,More...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-life

Pro-life is a term representing a variety of perspectives and activist movements in medical ethics. It most commonly used, especially in the media and popular discourse, to refer to opposition to abortion. More generally, the term describes a political and ethical view which maintains that fetuses and embryos are persons and therefore have a right to live. Less commonly, it can be used to indicate opposition to practices such as euthanasia, the death penalty, human cloning, and research involving human embryonic stem cells.

And on Google:
News results for pro life
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTExMGJkZGMzMDI3ODY0YWU0ZDA2ZWVmOGRjNmRkZDg=

The pro-life movement is despondent. During the recent election cycle, pro-lifers incurred a series of disappointing political defeats, culminating in the election of a president who steadfastly supports keeping abortion legal. Furthermore, some pundits suggest that the Republican party’s pro-life stance hurt its candidates, and thus the party should take a more moderate position.

And Aol:

Also Try - pro life vs. pro choice, pro life images, pro life facts
http://www.donateacar.com/charity-American-Life-League.php?gclid=CMP1gP6tr5gCFRwpawod7GZ_UA&gclid=CMP1gP6tr5gCFRwpawod7GZ_UA

The American Life League is a national, 501(c)(3) nonprofit charity. ALL exists to serve God by helping to build a society that respects and protects innocent human life from fertilization to natural death - without compromise, without exception, without apology. The distinguishing mark of ALL, by which we will be recognized, is our absolute commitment to the sacredness of human life. DONATE NOW.

The first two articles are much more extensive. I just posted the first paragraph of all three.

koriwhat

01-27-2009, 01:37 PM

blake. :toast

ploto

01-27-2009, 02:06 PM

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 03:46 PM

Fair enough.

Blake

01-27-2009, 03:49 PM

blake. :toast

not sure what we are toasting...

back at ya any way

:toast

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 03:50 PM

I believe I answered that already.

When it came to Bush, I was against his views on the death penalty and the war.

But far as I could discern from his platform in 2004, Kerry was for the death penalty and for the war too, so in a sense those were moot points.

Because both candidates spoke in support of the death penalty and continuing the war ( or at least could not assure me that they had serious intentions otherwise), I had to accept that my vote was not going to affect immediate change in either of those areas.

Therefore, I cast my vote according to a cause which mattered greatly to me and on which the candidates definitely differed.

Thanks, you're right, I missed that. A question. To you, is support for/against abortion more important than support for/against torture, or war? Or are none of them 'more important'?

LnGrrrR

01-27-2009, 03:52 PM

If you go to the USCCB webpage on pro-life activities, it includes the following issues, among others:

abortion
assisted suicide
capital punishment
euthanasia
cloning

"The right to life implies and is linked to other human rights—to the basic goods that every human person needs to live and thrive. All the life issues are connected, for erosion of respect for the life of any individual or group in society necessarily diminishes respect for all life."

I can see the point of abortion and capital punishment, but why assisted suicide and cloning? (Technically, I think assisted suicide=euthanasia)

Curious to hear why you think there are included.

Additionally, is there a 'hierarchy' of life? Is human life more important than other species?

ElNono

01-27-2009, 07:22 PM

You obviously ignore the spiritual aspect. Can you deny we all have a life force within us that defies known science?

Yes I can. Can you prove otherwise?

angel_luv

01-27-2009, 08:58 PM

Thanks, you're right, I missed that. A question. To you, is support for/against abortion more important than support for/against torture, or war? Or are none of them 'more important'?

They are equally important since they all concern the well being of people.

War is hard since it has been a necessary evil at different points in history- World War 2 always sticks out in my mind as an example of that.

Even so, I am always grieved whenever people are wounded or killed.
And I am one hundred percent against torture.
I also take issue with the way people are penned up like animals in our prison system.
Again, I understand jail has become a necessary evil in our society. But still it grieves me.

On the jail topic though, I saw the following great story the other day.

http://www.insidetennis.com/0807_san_quentin.html

The 357 footsteps between the East Gate and the Front Count Gate at San Quentin State Prison can make for a lonely walk. A single yellow stripe marks the route, the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge arcing over San Francisco Bay to the east. Set amidst bucolic Marin County, where the median home price now eclipses the $1 million mark, California’s oldest and most renowned correctional facility sits on some prime waterfront real estate. But this isn’t exactly my idea of a gated community.

As I head toward Watchtower One, I sink into a claustrophobic inertia. This is the same route taken on Saturday mornings by the stoic women who come to see their husbands, their sons; the same route taken each week by visiting groups of juvies headed for a scared-straight wakeup call. It’s a walk I took on numerous occasions during a three-year stretch beginning in September 2004. But I never did get used to it.

It’s a bit unsettling on my first visit when, after being ushered through no fewer than three security checkpoints, I’m informed that, in the unlikely event that I’m taken hostage, the State of California will not negotiate my release. The thought reverberates along with the sound of the last steel door slamming shut behind me. Some 30 yards past the brick façade of the prison’s circa 1885 hospital, I round a corner and descend into San Quentin’s Lower Yard.

I don’t know what I was expecting. Bogart and Bacall in Dark Passage? Paul Newman’s Cool Hand Luke? The hushed hues of The Shawshank Redemption? But Hollywood this is not. Rows of men in orange jump suits file by — mostly repeat offenders and parole-violators — on their way to the Reception Center. A tight-knit gang of Mexican-American inmates, Norteños, strum guitars, sing folk songs and play dominoes, their tattoos gleaming in the white-flash sun. Behind them, a group of whites are doing pull-ups in a penned-off area. The blacks are on the basketball court, running from end to end. A diminutive Asian man — whom his fellow inmates have nicknamed Ho Chi Minh — plays a solitary game of ping-pong, apparently unable to corral an opponent. Perhaps it’s his reputation. They say the day he first arrived at San Quentin, he warned jeering onlookers, “Don’t touch me, or I kill you.” And from the looks of him, he meant it.

My guide is Don DeNevi, 69, the supervisor of recreation at San Quentin. Which begs the question: How is it possible that a man who once wrote about how to escape from one of the world’s most fortified prisons could end up determining how an overcrowded population of convicts spends its “free” time? Actually, DeNevi has authored/co-authored more than 30 books, including Into the Minds of Madmen, Mob Nemesis and Riddle of the Rock: The Only Successful Escape from Alcatraz. The self-confessed tennis nut has written about his favorite sport, too, teaming up with Tony Trabert on Tennis Past 50.

DeNevi is solely responsible for kick-starting San Quentin’s burgeoning tennis program, aptly nicknamed the Inside Tennis Club — a cultural cross section of 15 or so inmates who, with almost religious devotion, faithfully haul their gear out of the recreation shack every Saturday at 7 a.m. and play until last count, around 4 p.m. The majority of them are serving life sentences for first- or second-degree murder, with the possibility of parole; men who got caught up in gang life, made disastrous decisions and are now paying the price.

Until recently, their court in the Lower Yard doubled as the parking lot where buses unload new inmates each weekday. The primitive court’s pockmarked pavement was cracked and sloped. Their net was a five-foot chicken-wire fence, the net cord a steel pipe. When an errant forehand sent a ball onto the roof, the players had to wait for a gun-toting guard to retrieve it.

“Playing on that court sharpened your focus,” quips DeNevi, who formerly taught in the Criminal Justice Department at San Francisco State.

It’s here that I first come face to face with Juan Arevalo, the Peruvian-born 57-year-old whom I had known previously only through his letters. He first wrote to me in July 2004, inviting me to come to San Quentin to get a firsthand glimpse of how tennis was playing an integral role in the rehabilitation of himself and his confined counterparts. He had also sent a few examples of his writings. One poem, entitled “The Family,” begins:

Oh, that I would be so lucky

As the baby chimpanzee, who crawls

All over the camp, where he feels

So protected, so nurtured, so free!

At the time, Arevalo was serving a life sentence for the Christmas Eve 1978 murder of his girlfriend. He’d been locked up for more than 25 years. A quarter century of incarceration. He was transferred from Solano State Prison to San Quentin in 1993. He had been found suitable for parole as far back as 2001, but the decision was reversed by then-Governor Gray Davis. Arnold Schwarzenegger quashed two more Parole Board decisions in the coming years. But the letters of support — from ministers, teachers, prison guards — kept pouring in. I’ve read through a stack of them. They all insist he’s a changed man and ready for release. There seems to be an aura around Arevalo. It’s clear that those around him hold him in high regard and he treats them with a mutual respect.

“In prison, where love is not available, anybody who extends a hand to you is going to be welcomed,” he tells me. “That’s the reason why the guys look up to me.”

Perhaps. But it also may be that he’s undergone an against-all-odds, Hyde-to-Jekyll transformation from young, angry, machismo drug addict to spiritual mentor. For them, he represents hope. He has survived the system. And in doing so, he’s done everything by the book. He’s stayed disciplinary-free and has consistently charted clean psych reports. He was first a student and then a trainee in a substance-abuse counseling program. In prison, he completed his PhD in marriage counseling and was a sponsor in a 12-step recovery program. He counseled young offenders through Project Last Chance, led Christian Fellowship Bible studies, participated in anger management seminars. He is a member of Men Against Domestic Violence, regularly met with a victim-offender reconciliation group, served as an ESL teaching aid. He received certification from Marin Abused Women’s Services. And then there is the tennis.

“We’ve been able to do so many things with tennis,” says Arevalo.

San Quentin’s Lower Yard is an exercise in racial divisiveness. On any given day, the inmates are scattered across the yard in groups according to ethnicity. They stick to their own kind. But somehow the tennis court is the exception to the rule. Here, racial and religious lines are blurred.

“The racial thing was just the beginning of it,” reflects Arevalo. “The indoctrination that started with tennis, that carried from the older guys to the younger guys — that was the amazing thing. There’s a lot of angry people in prison, and when they played tennis, they brought all that anger, all that animosity. Then, after two or three weeks of hanging out with us, you could see the miracle happening in front of your eyes. The guys just mellowed out. They realized, ‘Hey, people are not fighting here. These people are different.’ We were indoctrinating people without even opening our mouths.”

Arevalo introduces me to some of his crew. There’s Squirrel, Mac, Curly Joe, Mohamed, Bone and Bert. The muscle-bound Bert Boatman drove the getaway car in a robbery gone bad. In a white tank T and gray sweats, the skullcapped and goateed Boatman is an intimidating presence. But he’s nearly as quick with a handshake and a smile as he is with his booming first serve. The 41-year-old didn’t pick up a racket until he was on the inside. His strokes are a little rough-hewn, but this guy can flat-out play. He’s got the discipline, the desire. You can see it in his eyes.

Mac McCartney, 55, killed his ex-wife. Twenty-nine years and nine unsuccessful parole hearings later, he stands on a tennis court in the Lower Yard in San Quentin, California, a changed man whose newfound Buddhist philosophy tells him he can’t change the past, he can only live in the moment and prepare for a more positive future.

“When I’m on the court, nothing else outside of these fences exists,” he says.

The words “we’re going to find you unsuitable today” have become all too familiar to McCartney. He heard them yet again in January, during an emotional, three-hour parole hearing that was attended by a pair of unexpected guests. His son and daughter, whom he had neither seen nor heard from in the three decades since his murder conviction, appeared from a remote location via a two-way monitor. There were no introductions, but none were needed. He knew good and well who they were. His daughter was the spitting image of his former wife.

Raphael Calix is no newcomer to the game. He grew up on the west side of L.A. watching the likes of Jimmy Connors and Arthur Ashe in their days at UCLA. He says he used to swing his trusty Wilson T2000 seven days a week on public courts before a cocaine addiction derailed any promise of a professional tennis career. He had even received an athletic scholarship offer from Cal State-L.A.

“I didn’t get a chance to fulfill those aspirations,” he says.

A man of few words, Squirrel Johnson is a lefty with unorthodox but effective strokes. He doesn’t like to warm up. He just steps onto the court when it’s time to play. He’s all business between the lines.

Compared with the other lifers, Malik Harris is a relative newcomer. He has only been in the system for nine years. Now 36, he won’t see the outside of San Quentin’s walls before 2018. Before arriving here, he had bounced around the CDC system, doing time in Folsom, Centinela and the California Men’s Colony in San Luis Obispo. At first glance, it just doesn’t add up. Clean-shaven and donning wire-rimmed glasses, he seems better suited to a college campus than a prison yard. Turns out, he was once enrolled at Santa Monica College and even took a few classes at UCLA. But by the time he had entered college, the aspiring screenwriter had already fallen in with the wrong crowd, a circumstance, he says, for which he has only himself to blame. He was attending one of L.A.’s most notoriously violent educational institutions, Grover Cleveland High School in the San Fernando Valley’s Reseda district, the first time he got shot. In a world of gangbanging, he says he often carried a gun for protection. Home invasion, burglary and sexual assault were among the charges that landed him jail.

Harris grew up with hoop dreams. But when he got to prison, he discovered that a different brand of basketball is played on the inside, a physical brand that often leads to violent confrontations. And if there was one thing he doesn’t need any more of in his life, it’s violence. For Harris, who was welcomed into the Inside Tennis Club about a year and a half ago, the tennis court was a safe haven. He says that what he likes most about the sport is that it enables you to focus on the moment, and how playing doubles can help you learn about relationships, about dealing with others. It’s those lessons, he says, that he’s now applying to his everyday behavior.

“This is an opportunity to change my life,” says Harris, his eyes steering toward Mt. Tamalpais in the distance. “For me, life starts right now. Actually, it started yesterday. I’m behind. I’ve got some catching up to do.”

The product of a single-parent household, Harris speaks of how his mother did the best she could raising him and how she used to encourage him to meditate, to do yoga, in order to curb his angst. But he wasn’t ready. Ironically, it’s here in the joint that, in addition to playing tennis, he’s both meditating and doing yoga now — finally heeding his mother’s advice. It’s what keeps him going.

Towering over the court is a sprawling, Depression-era structure known as North Block, home to more than 800 men, including the majority of the tennis players, who live in a hive of cramped cells stacked five tiers high. North Block is also home to the largest population of condemned prisoners in the nation, who live on the sixth floor, San Quentin’s fabled Death Row. Despite being considered low-risk, Level II inmates, DeNevi’s lifers live among those who await the gas chamber or lethal injection. Scott Peterson lives here. Tookie Williams lived here before his December 2005 execution. Every man sentenced to death in California passes through here.

During each of my visits, we’re paired into teams and shuttled on and off the court, playing best-of-five-game sets. Winners stay on the court. On Saturdays it’s all doubles in order to maximize court time. I’m struck by the irony when told not to wear white (in fact, I’m told to avoid blue, gray and orange, too, to keep from blending in with the inmates). I’ve spent a good part of my life steering clear of the kind of club that mandates tennis whites, only to find myself at San Quentin being told I can’t wear white. Between points, we bump fists, exchange high-fives. A mix of encouragement and some benign ribbing comes from those on the bench. Others in San Quentin’s mainline population stop to watch, their hands clinging to the chain-link fence that surrounds the court. There are baseball and basketball games in progress nearby, but the scene on the tennis court is different.

As you might expect, life in the Lower Yard does not come without its tensions, even on the tennis court. After all, there is only one court and the guys want their playing time, which has led to some arguments. Some of the regulars are upset by a recent regulation that denies them the right to keep rackets in their cells. On one occasion, I’m pulled aside by a pair of correctional officers who not so stealthily proceed to warn me to keep the body contact to a minimum. Cut the high-fives, all the familiarity. It sends the wrong message across the yard, they say; and it’s for my own safety. The inmates pick up on the vibe and don’t seem to appreciate the sentiment.

Occasionally, an alarm sounds and a voice crackles through a loudspeaker, instructing everyone to assume the prone position in the spot where they are now sitting or standing. Indiscernible figures loom in the guard towers above. I never know if it’s a drill or if there’s been an “incident” in the yard. I grow accustomed it, but the first time it happens I’m not quite sure what to do. Besides the green-uniformed COs, I’m the only man standing amidst a sea of convicts. When I somewhat awkwardly begin to take a knee, an inmate prompts me, “No, you don’t have to do that. This is just for us.”

According to DeNevi, whose pale blue ballcap boasts “San Quentin State Prison Tennis Coach,” I needn’t worry. “If anybody gets out of line, there’ll be hell to pay,” he assures me. “My guys would lay their lives down to protect you.”

What’s remarkable is that DeNevi has managed to recruit volunteers who, on a regular basis, come into this hostile environment to hit with and give on-court instruction to the inmates on Saturdays. Surprisingly, many of them are women.

Helle Viragh is one of DeNevi’s brown-card holders, meaning she can come and go through the prison gates as she pleases. To acquire the status, she attended special certification sessions, where she was briefed on the dos and don’ts of dealing with the inmates. She was warned never to discuss her personal life, and to avoid any correspondence or outside contact with them. She was even lectured on how to dress (be covered from head to toe, don’t show any skin). The 51-year-old Viragh is the head pro at Scott Valley Swimming and Tennis Club in Mill Valley. The woman who San Quentin’s lifers have affectionately dubbed “Hella Cool” says she doesn’t feel threatened, even though she’s often the only woman in the prison yard.

“Somehow, on a tennis court, that’s my safest place to be,” says Viragh, her accent hinting at her Danish roots. “I forget about where I am.”

Viragh represented her homeland in Fed Cup play between '74 and '78, and has since penned the how-to book Dynamite Doubles. The men relish her expertise.

“The depth and insight in the conversations that we have when we’re not on the court is very stimulating,” says Viragh. “There is no small talk, per se. It’s all quite soul-seeking. I love that. They talk recovery, about becoming a better person. Tennis is such a wonderful tool.”

Viragh visits twice a month, weather permitting.

“Even if I don’t go, I’m kind of mentally there,” she explains. “There’s something about that Saturday morning that’s pretty incredible. You see prison differently than when you view it from the outside.”

Sophie Pouteau is another one of DeNevi’s card-carrying volunteers. She’s a competitive league player at the exclusive Peninsula Tennis Club in nearby Tiburon, but when she’s on the court at San Quentin, she might as well be a world away. She says she didn’t hesitate when an acquaintance asked her to participate.

“What I’m providing is social interaction that could potentially be a bit of rehabilitation,” says the recently divorced mother of two. “The interaction between inmates is very different than the inmates interacting with somebody from the outside. I guess what I’m doing is exit rehabilitation, getting them ready to reenter society. It can only be a positive. I think they thrive on that.”

“Many of these guys are getting an education that they never would have gotten if they were out on the street. Many of them come from underprivileged communities, so they never had an opportunity to learn, to develop, to grow,” she adds.

When I ask her how her friends and family have responded to her unusual calling, Pouteau retorts, “People just basically think I’m crazy.”

DeNevi’s volunteers were so taken by the program that they spearheaded a fundraising effort to build a new court for the inmates. Others soon joined the cause. The USTA NorCal stepped in and provided a matching grant, simultaneously launching a tennis-education initiative in which DeNevi’s lifers shared life lessons with at-risk students. Santa Rosa-based Ghilotti Construction put down the asphalt, and Plexipave agreed to donate all the surfacing materials. A year later, thanks to some hard work from the inmates, the fence posts went up. Despite the fact that the new court is a foot or two short on each end, it’s a marked improvement. Raphael Calix calls it his “court of dreams.”

After experiencing that poor excuse for a court in my early visits to San Quentin, a new one certainly made sense. But I couldn’t help but wonder what the reaction might be on the outside. How would average, law-abiding nine-to-fivers feel about a new tennis court going up in a prison yard? In an era of rapidly eroding recreational space, when more and more courts are being bulldozed to make room for condos, why should a group of convicts be entitled to a new facility? Is this really our idea of corporal punishment? But DeNevi’s face contorts at the idea that anyone would disapprove.

“If we keep our men busy and active in recreational programs, they’re not going to get in trouble, they’re not going to kill each other,” he says. “If they hit tennis balls, they don’t hit each other. Are we that punitive to men who killed when they were young — in their teens, primarily? All of them will acknowledge that what they did was utter stupidity. These aren’t cold-blooded, borderline personalities like you’ll find on Death Row.”

Denevi should know. In addition to supervising the rec program, he counsels two Death Row inmates once a week.

From the moment I first stepped inside the famed prison that Chronicle columnist Herb Caen used to call the “Bastille by the Bay,” I’ve struggled to wrap my mind around such a complex story. I’ve had to ask myself some tough questions. Fortunately, I’m not here to judge. The California courts have already done that for me. I know that if someone took the life of someone close to me, I would have a difficult time turning the other cheek. Yet here, in this unforgiving environment, where I’ve met men who have battled for decades to come to terms with their transgressions and have striven to become better people, I can’t help but feel that there is some humanity inside these walls. These inmates could be breaking rocks. But if hitting a yellow ball back and forth across a net, substituting racket for pickax, can help them feel like they have some value, some purpose in life, then so be it.

• • • • •
February 16, 2007 is a day Juan Arevalo won’t soon forget. Governor Schwarzenegger had finally rubber-stamped his parole. After 28 years, this was to be his last day as prisoner C-04938, his last day behind bars. Or so he thought. He was supposed to walk out of prison for good that day. But at 9 a.m., he was led by two Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents to an awaiting van, his arms and feet in shackles, and driven south to the ICE headquarters in San Francisco.

In another time, Arevalo might have been a free man, reunited with his wife Judy and his two daughters. But it’s a post-9/11 world now, and his Peruvian citizenship has suddenly become a big issue. Despite the fact that he has been in the U.S. since 1969, that he has several job offers lined up on the outside, that his family resides in the Bay Area and eagerly awaits his return, deportation is now a distinct possibility. To this day, he remains in custody at the Yuba County Jail in Marysville, California, awaiting word on whether he will be granted political asylum.

When I last connect with Juan on the phone, he speaks with his usual calm, but I can tell his nerves are frayed.

“This is not an easy pill to swallow, but I’m handling it just like I handled San Quentin,” he says. “My faith is strong that everything happens for a reason.”

He spends his days working in the jail’s kitchen and lives in a single-bed cell. He’s been issued three uniforms, consisting of khaki pants, a navy blue T-shirt and canvas shoes. His kitchen job affords him the occasional perk, like pizza on Friday nights. He’s allowed to watch a DVD movie once or twice a week. He’s teaching a Bible class again and has taken some of the younger detainees under his wing. But his purgatorial state is taking a toll.

“It’s dead time in here,” he says.

Arevalo is allotted 15 minutes for phone calls. During our conversation, a monitor periodically breaks in on the line, prompting us on how much time we have remaining. Five minutes left. He describes how his daughter Bonnie, whom he calls his “anchor,” is gathering support, how he had hoped to be released in time to see his daughter Olga graduate from college. Two minutes left. He laments how he’s not allowed any personal belongings, how he wishes he had a typewriter so he could get back to his writing, how he misses his tennis. And then the line goes dead.

LnGrrrR

01-28-2009, 10:41 AM

Thanks for your replies Angel. Nice to see you're consistent. Can't complain with that.

SnakeBoy

01-28-2009, 11:31 PM

I gotta say, they make a good point...

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