Jazz Owner Miller has Legs Amputated Below His Knees

[Chief]

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-jazz-miller&prov=ap&type=lgns)

Miller’s legs amputated below knees


SALT LAKE CITY (AP)—Longtime Utah Jazz owner Larry H. Miller’s legs were amputated 6 inches below the knee on Friday.

Jazz spokesman Jonathan Rinehart said Friday’s surgery was the result of complications from Type 2 diabetes.

Rinehart said the 64-year-old Miller is recovering in a hospital.

“Larry is doing well and is expected to continue to recover in the coming weeks and months,” Greg Miller, Larry Miller’s son, said in a statement. The statement said Miller’s family would not be releasing any details.

Rinehart said Miller was already using a wheelchair before the surgery.

On Thursday, Gov. Jon Huntsman chose Miller to chair a new commission that will look for ways to increase Utah’s low voter turnout and improve ethics in government. Miller did not attend the announcement—the reason given was that he had a hospital appointment.

In October, doctors found a bone infection and diabetic ulcers on one of Miller’s feet. He had outpatient surgery.

Miller had a heart attack over the summer. Complications including kidney failure and gastrointestinal bleeding that required blood transfusions followed, keeping him in the hospital for nearly two months.

Medical problems continued, including a nine-day hospitalization for dialysis to remove excess water weight.

Miller bought a 50 percent share of the Jazz in 1985 and purchased the rest of the team a year later.

Due to his father’s health, Greg Miller was selected as the CEO of the Larry H. Miller Group over the summer.

The group owns the Jazz, radio and TV stations, restaurants, car dealerships, movie theaters, advertising and finance firms, sports arenas, a race track, a movie production company, ranches, a real estate development

company and a minor league baseball team.

[angelbelow]

thats why its important to stay healthy.... with type 2 at his age it could be a lot worst.

[mogrovejo]

«My goal is to be back on the court before Carlos Boozer», said the entrepreneur in his first public remarks after the surgery.

All the best to Miller, he's a great owner and his radio show is very good.

[IronMexican]

Best of luck to this guy.

[sook]

wish him the best

[balli]

Larry Miller is one of the more, bigoted, self-interested, assholes in all of America, but still, I'll concede that sucks for him.

[ClingingMars]

Larry Miller is one of the more, bigoted, self-interested, assholes in all of America, but still, I'll concede that sucks for him.


Miller has contributed to a variety of causes and organizations, including a $21 million dollar training center for law enforcement and corrections officers, as well as a significant investment towards a campus for Salt Lake Community College, which are both named in his honor.

In November 1995, he formed Larry H. Miller Charities, whose mission statement is, "We give back to our communities by focusing our united service and corporate giving on youth and children with an emphasis on health and education." Since its inception, the foundation has raised more than $1 million, distributing those funds to charitable organizations in the communities where the Larry H. Miller Group does business.

His public service has been recognized by numerous awards, including the Utah Minuteman Award from the Utah National Guard in 1990, an honorary Doctor of Laws degree from the University of Utah in 1991, and the Tourist Achievement Award from the Salt Lake Convention and Visitors Bureau in 1992.

huh? that doesn't sound right to me.

the best of luck to him.

[balli]

huh? that doesn't sound right to me.
Well, once when you've lived a mile away from him for 22 years I think you can comment with as much assurance as I.

And really, if you want to impress me with Larry Miller's charitable works you're going to have to do better than:


Miller has contributed to a variety of causes and organizations, including a $21 million dollar training center for law enforcement and corrections officers.

Honestly mars, WTF do you think you're talking to?


But like I said, as much as I dislike the guy, I don't wish this on him. He's a hateful monster IMO, but even monsters deserve feet.

[ChumpDumper]

If you have diabetes, check your feet every day. Could be you can't feel an ulcer forming.

I wonder if Miller's doctors tried maggot therapy first.

[Findog]

Miller has been a benefactor of anti-gay causes.

[SenorSpur]

Well, once when you've lived a mile away from him for 22 years I think you can comment with as much assurance as I.


Wow! Strong stuff. Got any examples of his bigoted and unusual behavior?

[Findog]

Wow! Strong stuff. Got any examples of his bigoted and unusual behavior?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3053173&postcount=10

[balli]

Wow! Strong stuff. Got any examples of his bigoted and unusual behavior?
1. He owns a lot of businesses in SLC and I've heard a lot of stories, from a lot of people, detailing just how much he treats people who work for and serve him, like they were absolute shit. People worth a half billion dollars, that routinely treat other, less wealthy people, like shit, are about as low as it gets.

2. He's a bigot of epic proportion. Plain and simple.

3. Once I was parked behind him at a red light (1300 and So. Temple) waiting to turn right... and the motherfucker just wouldn't turn. He was waiting to turn too. He was just being a douche and waiting for a green light? WTF is that? There's no law about turning right at a red in SLC. I laid on my horn for a minute straight and the ignorant fucker just sat there and waited for the light. WTF is that?

4. He's heavily mormon and thereby lives in a nonsensical, delusional version of the world. He then wields his enormous economic influence in the local political arena so as to promote the horrid values of his cult.

5. When I was a senior in High School I went to a 4th of July party at his next door neighbor's house. In the middle of the day, even though there was acres of lawn between us, that fucker calls the cops. Dozens of kids get MIP's and their parents called by the cops. On the 4th of July... :depressed

[Trainwreck2100]

Miller has been a benefactor of anti-gay causes.

:lol At that being a bad thing

[Findog]

:lol At that being a bad thing

It is, bigot.

[Thunder Dan]

his wife has some serious kancles

http://a.espncdn.com/media/apphoto/5bdbbf71-f974-408c-a8e8-38609bd64db2.jpg

[mogrovejo]

4. He's heavily mormon and thereby lives in a nonsensical, delusional version of the world. He then wields his enormous economic influence in the local political arena so as to promote the horrid values of his cult.

The other points are childish jealous rants. This is bigoted. There's stil freedom of religion in this country. Why are you so judgmental and hateful? Let people live by the values they think it's right.

[dickface]

I wonder if Miller's doctors tried maggot therapy first.

Matt Harpring is already on the payroll too.

[Trainwreck2100]

1. He owns a lot of businesses in SLC and I've heard a lot of stories, from a lot of people, detailing just how much he treats people who work for and serve him, like they were absolute shit. People worth a half billion dollars, that routinely treat other, less wealthy people, like shit, are about as low as it gets.

2. He's a bigot of epic proportion. Plain and simple.

3. Once I was parked behind him at a red light (1300 and So. Temple) waiting to turn right... and the motherfucker just wouldn't turn. He was waiting to turn too. He was just being a douche and waiting for a green light? WTF is that? There's no law about turning right at a red in SLC. I laid on my horn for a minute straight and the ignorant fucker just sat there and waited for the light. WTF is that?

4. He's heavily mormon and thereby lives in a nonsensical, delusional version of the world. He then wields his enormous economic influence in the local political arena so as to promote the horrid values of his cult.

5. When I was a senior in High School I went to a 4th of July party at his next door neighbor's house. In the middle of the day, even though there was acres of lawn between us, that fucker calls the cops. Dozens of kids get MIP's and their parents called by the cops. On the 4th of July... :depressed

1)Almost all CEO's are like that to their workers people like that don't give a fuck about who they step on
5)LMAO at you bitching about being narced on when there is obvious law breakage. If you live next door to a DBag don't be surpised when he acts like a Dbag

[Trainwreck2100]

It is, bigot.

Nothing to lose legs over, it's not like he's being racist or anything.

[balli]

his wife has some serious kancles

http://a.espncdn.com/media/apphoto/5bdbbf71-f974-408c-a8e8-38609bd64db2.jpg

You think that's gross? I tried and couldn't find a picture of Larry Miller's left ear. It's been covered in some nasty growth for years. :vomit:

Actually, you can kind of see it in this pugnacious little pic, but it doesn't really justice to the up close nastiness. Although the pic itself, pretty much confirms everything else I've said about him.

http://www.affirmation.org/images/people/larry_miller.jpg

[Findog]

Nothing to lose legs over, it's not like he's being racist or anything.

I didn't express glee over him losing his legs. I simply pointed out one of the reasons he is held in low regard and you dismissed it.

[dickface]

Let people live by the values they think it's right.

The problem is when those same values are forced upon you regardless of how you feel.

[mogrovejo]

I wouldn't wish a benefactor of gay causes to lose his legs.

[balli]

it's not like he's being racist or anything.
Not in public. Are you seriously going to look at those pictures of him and his stone hateful wife and tell me they aren't at least a little racist? And I know I'm making generalizations myself, but to paraphrase Woody Allen, I'm a bigot, but for the left, so...

[Findog]

I wouldn't wish a benefactor of gay causes to lose his legs.

I wouldn't either. I also wouldn't blithely dismiss anti-gay bigotry and play it for laughs like some in this thread.

[dickface]

I wouldn't wish a benefactor of gay causes to lose his legs.

You're not very good at reading.

[mogrovejo]

The problem is when those same values are forced upon you regardless of how you feel.

Forced? By who? Were you forced to do anything against your will? That's illegal, go to the police.

[dickface]

Forced? By who? Were you forced to do anything against your will? That's illegal, go to the police.

You're not familiar with the history of the United States, are you?

[mogrovejo]

I wouldn't either. I also wouldn't blithely dismiss anti-gay bigotry and play it for laughs like some in this thread.

Also true for pro-gay bigotry.

[Bob Lanier]

Ah, Boston fans.

What was it Bill Russell said? "I didn't play for the city of Boston - I played for the Celtics"?

[mogrovejo]

You're not familiar with the history of the United States, are you?

Are you going to answer or not? Has Miller forced you to do anything? Has he forced anyone? What's the point of talking about the history of the US? Is Miller part of the government or something?

[balli]

If you live next door to a DBag don't be surpised when he acts like a Dbag
I'm not surprised, I'm just confirming that he is in fact, a dbag.

[Findog]

Also true for pro-gay bigotry.

I have no idea what that means. I would've never guessed that gays being the beneficiary of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment constitutes bigotry.

[mogrovejo]

I have no idea what that means. I would've never guessed that gays being the beneficiary of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment constitutes bigotry.

Did I say that?

You mean it's impossible to be a pro-gay bigot? And every anti-gay is bigot?

You're a little close-minded, aren't you?

[Trainwreck2100]

Not in public. Are you seriously going to look at those pictures of him and his stone hateful wife and tell me they aren't at least a little racist? And I know I'm making generalizations myself, but to paraphrase Woody Allen, I'm a bigot, but for the left, so...
Of couse the motherfucker's racist, he's a rich white guy from Utah(no offense) I'm gonna assume he's old money to boot.


I wouldn't either. I also wouldn't blithely dismiss anti-gay bigotry and play it for laughs like some in this thread.

I give a rat fuck about teh gays.

[mogrovejo]

Ah, Boston fans.

What was it Bill Russell said? "I didn't play for the city of Boston - I played for the Celtics"?

I'm a Celtics fan, not a Bostonian.

[dickface]

Are you going to answer or not? Has Miller forced you to do anything? Has he forced anyone? What's the point of talking about the history of the US? Is Miller part of the government or something?

Someone please inform this 14 year old about this little segment of our population known as the "Christian Right"

[dickface]

I'm a Celtics fan, not a Bostonian.

So you're an even bigger douchebag that we already thought you were.

[balli]

Has Miller forced you to do anything?
Yup. He's worked heavily with other forces, in the name of his cult's values, to force me to buy beer in a state run facility with no refrigeration. That means my beer comes at a premium price and is stale. And I don't even like beer. I drink a beer a week.

WTF should Larry Miller, some wealthy mormon douche, have any influence over the quality and availability of my one, uber-responsible, beer a week? It's trivial, but who cares, trivial inconvenience is the worst kind. Look at my quote, "petty tyranny sucks." It's the small tyrannies that are the worst.


Is Miller part of the government or something?
No. He's part of a cult and monetary political apparatus that runs Utah like they were the government or something.

[mogrovejo]

Someone please inform this 14 year old about this little segment of our population known as the "Christian Right"

:sleep

Can you understand the difference between social groups and the coercive force of the government? Can the Christian Right, or the Atheistic Left, or whatever, actually force you to do anything? Can they arrest you using the police and the courts?

[Findog]

Did I say that?

You mean it's impossible to be a pro-gay bigot? And every anti-gay is bigot?

You're a little close-minded, aren't you?

Why don't you enumerate for me what constitutes a "pro-gay bigot?" Because I consider the term "pro-gay" to be in favor of equal rights for gays, or at least treating them with the same basic decency as fellow human beings that you would for straight people.

[mogrovejo]

Yup. He's worked heavily with other to force me to buy beer in a state run facility with no refrigeration. That means my beer comes at a premium price and is stale. And I don't even like beer. I drink a beer a week. WTF should Larry Miller, some mormon douche, have any influence over the quality and availability of my one, uber-responsible, beer a week? It's trivial, but who cares, trivial inconvenience is the worst kind. Look at my quote, "petty tyranny sucks." It's the small tyranny's that are the worst.


No. He's part of a cult and monetary political apparatus that runs Utah like they were the government or something.

That's not tyranny, that's a business opportunity.

Run Utah? Elect other officials. Do you hate democracy, is that it?

[dickface]

:sleep

Can you understand the difference between social groups and the coercive force of the government? Can the Christian Right, or the Atheistic Left, or whatever, actually force you to do anything? Can they arrest you using the police and the courts?

Can you come up with a point? Didn't think so.

[Findog]

.



I give a rat fuck about teh gays.

it shows.

[dickface]

That's not tyranny, that's a business opportunity.

Run Utah? Elect other officials. Do you hate democracy, is that it?

You just finished a freshmen semester of US Government, right?

I remember being this naive.

[Trainwreck2100]

it shows.

They are given every right so there is no need to care.

[Findog]

They are given every right so there is no need to care.

No, they are not. When gays in committed relationships have the same hospital visitation rights, can pass on property to their partners and get the benefit of a joint tax return, then we can move on to other things.

[balli]

That's not tyranny, that's a business opportunity.

Business opportunity? Mother fucker, it's an oppressive monopolization of an entire industry, which has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with aggressively forcing religious values on the societal whole. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Don't try to school me on my city's local politics, or how and why they work. Seriously.

[mogrovejo]

You just finished a freshmen semester of US Government, right?

I remember being this naive.


Can you come up with a point? Didn't think so.


I don't have time to answer to mere ad hominem arguments.


Why don't you enumerate for me what constitutes a "pro-gay bigot?" Because I consider the term "pro-gay" to be in favor of equal rights for gays, or at least treating them with the same basic decency as fellow human beings that you would for straight people.

Bashing a religion and commit defamation of a person due to his/her personal beliefs is pretty much bigotry. You can't have double-standards: people make personal choices, held personal beliefs, have different ways of living. However, you do believe gays should be treated with basic decency as fellow human beings, but Larry Miller shall not.

[mogrovejo]

Business opportunity? Mother fucker, it's an oppressive monopolization of an entire industry, which has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with aggressively forcing religious values on the societal whole. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Don't try to school me on my city's local politics, or how and why they work. Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem_argument

[Trainwreck2100]

No, they are not. When gays in committed relationships have the same hospital visitation rights, can pass on property to their partners and get the benefit of a joint tax return, then we can move on to other things.

sadly the 14th amendment doesn't cover that. Maybe if they didn't spend all their time using the "Right to privacy" to get all those age old anti-gay laws reversed they would have a leg up on the public institution of marriage. Marriage isn't a right.

[ClingingMars]

Well, once when you've lived a mile away from him for 22 years I think you can comment with as much assurance as I.

And really, if you want to impress me with Larry Miller's charitable works you're going to have to do better than:



Honestly mars, WTF do you think you're talking to?


But like I said, as much as I dislike the guy, I don't wish this on him. He's a hateful monster IMO, but even monsters deserve feet.

i don't know, I just wiki'd the guy cause I'd never heard of him, and this was one of the things in there. But you're right, you'd probably know more about him than I.

[balli]

However, you do believe gays should be treated with basic decency as fellow human beings, but Larry Miller shall not.
Nobody said that. Whatever he thinks of the guy, I doubt Findog feels Larry Miller should be stripped of his human rights.

[Trainwreck2100]

Business opportunity? Mother fucker, it's an oppressive monopolization of an entire industry, which has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with aggressively forcing religious values on the societal whole. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Don't try to school me on my city's local politics, or how and why they work. Seriously.

Any monopoly is a brilliant bussiness move. Not fair for the little guy, mind you but in a business sense it's genius.

[ClingingMars]

1. He owns a lot of businesses in SLC and I've heard a lot of stories, from a lot of people, detailing just how much he treats people who work for and serve him, like they were absolute shit. People worth a half billion dollars, that routinely treat other, less wealthy people, like shit, are about as low as it gets.

2. He's a bigot of epic proportion. Plain and simple.

3. Once I was parked behind him at a red light (1300 and So. Temple) waiting to turn right... and the motherfucker just wouldn't turn. He was waiting to turn too. He was just being a douche and waiting for a green light? WTF is that? There's no law about turning right at a red in SLC. I laid on my horn for a minute straight and the ignorant fucker just sat there and waited for the light. WTF is that?

4. He's heavily mormon and thereby lives in a nonsensical, delusional version of the world. He then wields his enormous economic influence in the local political arena so as to promote the horrid values of his cult.

5. When I was a senior in High School I went to a 4th of July party at his next door neighbor's house. In the middle of the day, even though there was acres of lawn between us, that fucker calls the cops. Dozens of kids get MIP's and their parents called by the cops. On the 4th of July... :depressed

definitely sounds like a douche.

[balli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem_argument
I don't give a fuck. Like I said, don't try to school me on my city's politics, or how or why they work. I've lived here and read the Utah page of the Salt Lake Tribune 22 years. 22 years. You have not. I'll appeal to as much fucking authority as I please when talking to you.

[ClingingMars]

Someone please inform this 14 year old about this little segment of our population known as the "Christian Right"

fuck you.

[mogrovejo]

Nobody said that. Whatever he thinks of the guy, I doubt Findog feels Larry Miller should be stripped of his human rights.

Great. We all agree that LM, mormons and white people on Utah shall be treated with respect and not insulted or made the subject of calumnious insinuations due to the color of their skin, the size of their bank account and their religious beliefs.

This conversation is over for me, good to see it ended in good terms.

[balli]

Any monopoly is a brilliant bussiness move. Not fair for the little guy, mind you but in a business sense it's genius.

I'm not going to say that it isn't an economic engine. But yeah, it does fuck over the little guy. And I guarantee you, guarantee, that the primary motivation for said monopolization is religious, not economical. Which makes it even more oppressive in the eyes of the average, poor, non-mormon .

[Trainwreck2100]

Great. We all agree that LM, mormons and white people on Utah shall be treated with respect and not insulted or made the subject of calumnious insinuations due to the color of their skin, the size of their bank account and their religious beliefs.

This conversation is over for me, good to see it ended in good terms.

"gaddamn crackas



I'm just trying to deal the cards"

[ClingingMars]

At least he isn't a Scientologist. I can tolerate Mormons.

-Mars

[balli]

Great. We all agree that LM, mormons and white people on Utah shall be treated with respect and not insulted or made the subject of calumnious insinuations due to the color of their skin, the size of their bank account and their religious beliefs.
You don't seem to grasp the difference between rights and respect. I'll call people fags all day. But I'll damn sure let the real fags get married or visit one another in the hospital without saying a damn thing.

I'll call Larry H. Miller a piece of shit till the day he drops dead, but I damn sure don't want to see him stripped of his rights as an American.

[Trainwreck2100]

I'm not going to say that it isn't an economic engine. But yeah, it does fuck over the little guy. And I guarantee you, guarantee, that the primary motivation for said monopolization is religious, not economical. Which makes it even more oppressive in the eyes of the average, poor, non-mormon .

And when all the hardcore religious guys supporting this pass, there's going to be a guy in a suit ready to pick up the torch, cause people will pay anything for booze, and a cornered market is a cornered market

[Findog]

Bashing a religion and commit defamation of a person due to his/her personal beliefs is pretty much bigotry

People can believe what they want, whether it's enlightened or corrosive. Once they begin lobbying for laws that restrict the rights of others, or advocate treating others as second-class citizens, they have crossed the threshold into bigotry. If Larry Miller doesn't want to befriend or interact with gays, that's his choice. When he donates money to Proposition 8 in California, he's crossed the line into bigotry.


You can't have double-standards: people make personal choices, held personal beliefs, have different ways of living. However, you do believe gays should be treated with basic decency as fellow human beings, but Larry Miller shall not


The difference between myself and Larry Miller is that I do not believe Mormons should be stripped of rights or be second-class citizens. He, on the other hand, thinks gays do not deserve the same rights as he enjoys. You really just aren't very good at this.

[mogrovejo]

You don't seem to grasp the difference between rights and respect. I'll call people fags all day. But I'll damn sure let the real fags get married or visit one another in the hospital without saying a damn thing.

I'll call Larry H. Miller a piece of shit till the day he drops dead, but I damn sure don't want to see him stripped of his rights as an American.

Are you sure you respect every right? Do you respect the right of a hospital owner to not provide treatment to people he doesn't want to?

[mogrovejo]

People can believe what they want, whether it's enlightened or corrosive. Once they begin lobbying for laws that restrict the rights of others, or advocate treating others as second-class citizens, they have crossed the threshold into bigotry. If Larry Miller doesn't want to befriend or interact with gays, that's his choice. When he donates money to Proposition 8 in California, he's crossed the line into bigotry.


Really? People who disagree with you about a political choice are bigots? You do hate democracy, don't you?

[Findog]

sadly the 14th amendment doesn't cover that. Maybe if they didn't spend all their time using the "Right to privacy" to get all those age old anti-gay laws reversed they would have a leg up on the public institution of marriage. Marriage isn't a right.

Marriage is a civil institution that confers benefits and has implications when it comes to hospital visitation rights, health insurance benefits, property transfer, etc. The govt could get out of the business of issuing marriage licenses altogether and then each individual church could decide whether or not to perform same-sex ceremonies. That's one way to solve the problem.

Or gays in committed relationships could get the same benefits of marriage as straight couples. In my opinion, conservative Christians have no place to use their political influence to elect politicians that would deny gays the same benefits.

[Findog]

Really? People who disagree with you about a political choice are bigots? You do hate democracy, don't you?

You have got to be one of the dumbest motherfuckers on here with the reading comprehension of a retard. You have some serious frontal lobe damage if you got that from the passage you cited. Bigotry is not against the law, and I never called for Larry Miller to be treated as a criminal for it. It's his right to donate money to anti-gay causes. It's my right to exercise my free speech rights and rightly call him out as an asshat for it.

Larry Miller's political activity calls for restricting the rights of a class of citizens. It's his right to exercise his conscience, but for the benefit of society, we should hope his efforts don't succeed. Nowhere did I say he should be restrained from doing so.

[balli]

At least he isn't a Scientologist. I can tolerate Mormons.

-Mars

You're pretty Christian right? You should be more pissed by mormons. Scientology is more out there in terms of irrationality, but at least it isn't claiming to be a third testament.

I mean truly, The Book of Mormon is subtitled- Another Testament of Jesus Christ. And where they take him is just about the most blasphemous place a faith could go. So while it's not quite as whack as scientology (though close), mormonism pisses all over true Christianity.

[Trainwreck2100]

People can believe what they want, whether it's enlightened or corrosive. Once they begin lobbying for laws that restrict the rights of others, or advocate treating others as second-class citizens, they have crossed the threshold into bigotry. If Larry Miller doesn't want to befriend or interact with gays, that's his choice. When he donates money to Proposition 8 in California, he's crossed the line into bigotry.




He didn't cast a vote in the prop 8 election. He had no say in how it would turn out. 52% of the Cali electorate spoke up and cried out for change and they got it.

[balli]

You have got to be one of the dumbest motherfuckers on here with the reading comprehension of a retard.
+1. I mean, WTF? I hate when people are so dumb you'd like to think they're trolling, but you know they're not. They're just that stupid.

[baseline bum]

The other points are childish jealous rants. This is bigoted. There's stil freedom of religion in this country. Why are you so judgmental and hateful? Let people live by the values they think it's right.

So you'd have no problem with Islamic assholes beating their women?

[mogrovejo]

You have got to be one of the dumbest motherfuckers on here with the reading comprehension of a retard. You have some serious frontal lobe damage if you got that from the passage you cited. Bigotry is not against the law, and I never called for Larry Miller to be treated as a criminal for it. It's his right to donate money to anti-gay causes. It's my right to exercise my free speech rights and rightly call him out as an asshat for it.

I'm sorry, english is not my native language. Not even my 2nd or 3rd, it's not very often I have to use it. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, I agree with you: Miller is an asshat because he holds a different worldview than yours, you're an asshat because you hold a different worldview than his. I don't see the point of the name calling between civilized adults, but to each his own.

[Findog]

He didn't cast a vote in the prop 8 election. He had no say in how it would turn out. 52% of the Cali electorate spoke up and cried out for change and they got it.

He donated large sums of money to it, which is his right as a private citizen. Am I allowed to call him an asshat for that? Does it make me a "bigot" when I criticize a bigot? Because that is essentially what the other poster is arguing.

[ClingingMars]

You're pretty Christian right? You should be more pissed by mormons. Scientology is more out there in terms of irrationality, but at least it isn't claiming to be a third testament.

I mean truly, The Book of Mormon is subtitled- Another Testament of Jesus Christ. And where they take him is just about the most blasphemous place a faith could go. So while it's not quite as whack as scientology (though close), mormonism pisses all over true Christianity.

I know, but it's no different than Jehovah's Witnesses or any other typical cult. I could care less what they try to say about Christianity. The difference with Scientology is that it hurts people, and even worse, kills people who try to get out of the religion. It needs to be revoked of it's tax exempt status and investigated by the FBI.

www.xenu.net
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

[balli]

He didn't cast a vote in the prop 8 election. He had no say in how it would turn out. 52% of the Cali electorate spoke up and cried out for change and they got it.

Actually I'm prettu sure Larry H. Miller didn't even donate to the cause. I saw the google map of donors the other day and I'm almost certain he wasn't on it.
But like I said, it's trivial tyranny that's the worst. He banned Brokeback from his line of theaters. Which is his right as the proprietor. But honestly, how much more petty and childish could you get in the name of a bigoted cause?

[Findog]

So you'd have no problem with Islamic assholes beating their women?

Hey, it's legal in their country, and we are asshats and bigots if we criticize the free exercise of their religious beliefs. I feel like all I'm doing is calling a spade a spade.

[mogrovejo]

So you'd have no problem with Islamic assholes beating their women?

Yeah, unless it was voluntary. I don't have a problem with people who practice SM.

If it isn't voluntary, then I have a problem - as it is a violation of the natural rights of another person.

[Findog]

Actually I'm prettu sure Larry H. Miller didn't even donate to the cause. I saw the google map of donors the other day and I'm almost certain he wasn't on it.
But like I said, it's trivial tyranny that's the worst. He banned Brokeback from his line of theaters. Which is his right as the proprietor. But honestly, how much more petty and childish could you get in the name of a bigoted cause?

The Mormon Church was one of the biggest bankrollers of Prop 8. Even if he didn't donate directly, I'm sure he has given plenty of money to the Mormon church and was fully supportive of their efforts on behalf of Prop 8.

[balli]

It needs to be revoked of it's tax exempt status and investigated by the FBI.

No kidding. Thanks for the links.

[ClingingMars]

imo, there are a lot of more important issues for conservatives to be worried about than gay marriage. Do I like it? not really. do I really give a fuck? not really.

-Mars

[ClingingMars]

No kidding. Thanks for the links.

np, I'm going to do a speech on it in my communications class soon, information is power. and scary as hell.

[balli]

The Mormon Church was one of the biggest bankrollers of Prop 8. Even if he didn't donate directly, I'm sure he has given plenty of money to the Mormon church and was fully supportive of their efforts on behalf of Prop 8.

Yeah. Absolutely.

[Trainwreck2100]

Marriage is a civil institution that confers benefits and has implications when it comes to hospital visitation rights, health insurance benefits, property transfer, etc. The govt could get out of the business of issuing marriage licenses altogether and then each individual church could decide whether or not to perform same-sex ceremonies. That's one way to solve the problem.

Or gays in committed relationships could get the same benefits of marriage as straight couples. In my opinion, conservative Christians have no place to use their political influence to elect politicians that would deny gays the same benefits.

Like i said in the Prop 8 thread back in Nov. If you're pro gay marriage than you're also pro intermarriage. Because everything you could say about gay marriage can be used to argue for sibling marriage as long as one of the two siblings are incapable of reproduction

"But why would a sibling marry a sibling" Insurance fraud is always a good reason.

[Findog]

Like i said in the Prop 8 thread back in Nov. If you're pro gay marriage than you're also pro intermarriage. Because everything you could say about gay marriage can be used to argue for sibling marriage as long as one of the two siblings are incapable of reproduction


Incest is a crime. Homosexuality is not.



"But why would a sibling marry a sibling" Insurance fraud is always a good reason

If people want to forge identities and commit insurance fraud, they can do that already. That's no reason to deny gays the same benefits of marriage as heterosexuals.

[Findog]

imo, there are a lot of more important issues for conservatives to be worried about than gay marriage. Do I like it? not really. do I really give a fuck? not really.

-Mars

That's really all that one can ask of you. You don't have to like certain things if it offends your sensibilities, but live and let live.

[mogrovejo]

Why is incest a crime? Why shouldn't siblings be allowed to marry? Are they hurting anyone's rights by marrying?

[Trainwreck2100]

Incest is a crime. Homosexuality is not.




If people want to forge identities and commit insurance fraud, they can do that already. That's no reason to deny gays the same benefits of marriage as heterosexuals.

Incest is a crime because the baby can grow up being all fucked up, like i said if one of the two is incapable of reproducing be it surgical, natural or even if they are the same sex, you can't justify it being a crime. Sodomy was a crime in this state leading to the arrest of some gays but it got overturned, based on the "right to privacy" why would sibling stuff be any different. here's the example i always use If one had a sibling who had a disease but no insurance and the other had insurance. they could easily sign a paper saying they are "married" just so the sick one can use the insurance.

[ClingingMars]

That's really all that one can ask of you. You don't have to like certain things if it offends your sensibilities, but live and let live.

yeah, and you wouldn't believe the reaction of some of my peers at this statement. :bang like i said, bigger fights to battle.

[Findog]

Why is incest a crime? Why shouldn't siblings be allowed to marry? Are they hurting anyone's rights by marrying?

Incest that is coerced is a crime, and in most cases, there is a psychological disturbance. It's not natural to be attracted to your siblings. People do not typically view their siblings as sexual beings. But honestly, between consenting adults, who really cares? Why as a society should we be threatened by that or forbid it? It's certainly not a slippery slope argument, because there will never be marriage licenses granted to men and their pets or adults and their children.

[Trainwreck2100]

It's certainly not a slippery slope argument, because there will never be marriage licenses granted to men and their pets or adults and their children.

Do you think that statement hasn't been made about teh gays over the years?

[mogrovejo]

Incest that is coerced is a crime, and in most cases, there is a psychological disturbance. It's not natural to be attracted to your siblings. People do not typically view their siblings as sexual beings. But honestly, between consenting adults, who really cares? Why as a society should we be threatened by that or forbid it? It's certainly not a slippery slope argument, because there will never be marriage licenses granted to men and their pets or adults and their children.

What about incest that isn't coerced? How do you know there's a psychological disturbance in most cases and it's not natural? That's exactly what was said about homosexuality just a few decades ago. Do you consider yourself a bigot in regards to incest? Or do you agree siblings should be allowed to marry?

[Findog]

Do you think that statement hasn't been made about teh gays over the years?

If you can't see the difference between homosexuality and bestiality, then I can't help you.

[Findog]

What about incest that isn't coerced? How do you know there's a psychological disturbance in most cases and it's not natural? That's exactly what was said about homosexuality just a few decades ago. Do you consider yourself a bigot in regards to incest? Or do you agree siblings should be allowed to marry?

Consenting adults should be allowed to get a marriage license, whether they are same-sex or not, blood relatives or not...or the government should stop issuing marriage licenses altogether, in which case it's up to an individual church to perform a ceremony or not.

[mogrovejo]

Consenting adults should be allowed to get a marriage license, whether they are same-sex or not, blood relatives or not.

And everyone who doesn't agree with the siblings marriage is a bigot and an asshat, right?

[Findog]

And everyone who doesn't agree with the siblings marriage is a bigot and an asshat.

If they aren't standing in the way of it or trying to pre-empt it, their distaste is of no consequence.

[Trainwreck2100]

If you can't see the difference between homosexuality and bestiality, then I can't help you.

I was refering to the adult thing.

[mogrovejo]

If they aren't standing in the way of it or trying to pre-empt it, their distaste is of no consequence.

But if they vote against legislation that enforces the siblings marriages, they're bigots and asshats, right?

[Findog]

But if they vote against legislation that enforces the siblings marriages, they're bigots and asshats, right?

They are interfering with the privacy rights of consenting adults in that case. Incest and Homosexuality are two very different things.

[mogrovejo]

They are interfering with the privacy rights of consenting adults in that case. Incest and Homosexuality are two very different things.

If they are interfering with the privacy rights of adults (I see you define marriage as a privacy right), they are bigots and asshats, right? Why are stressing that incest and homosexuality are two very different things? That's your personal opinion. Do you think incest is less respectable or something?

[Findog]

The only thing homosexuality and incest have in common is that they are both to some degree stigmatized by society. In the case of homosexuality, it is because ignorant people erroneously associate it with pedophilia. In the case of incest, it is seen as distasteful if between consenting adults, and criminal if coerced or occurring between an adult and a child.

[mogrovejo]

Personally, I'm against allowing marriage licenses to siblings, gays, straights, bisexuals, Mormons, Scientologists and beer drinkers.

[ClingingMars]

The only thing homosexuality and incest have in common is that they are both to some degree stigmatized by society. In the case of homosexuality, it is because ignorant people erroneously associate it with pedophilia. In the case of incest, it is seen as distasteful if between consenting adults, and criminal if coerced or occurring between an adult and a child.

incest also produces mentally disabled children. it's simply a bad idea.

[mogrovejo]

The only thing homosexuality and incest have in common is that they are both to some degree stigmatized by society. In the case of incest, it is because ignorant people erroneously associate it with pedophilia. In the case of incest, it is seen as distasteful if between consenting adults, and criminal if coerced or occurring between an adult and a child.

:lol

So, homosexuality isn't criminal if coerced or occuring between an adult and a child? Or are you associating incest with pedophilia?

[Findog]

incest also produces mentally disabled children. it's simply a bad idea.

Agreed. There is a much higher risk of problems with the offspring of incest. It's a bad, bad idea, but I don't know that it should be forbidden between consenting adults. Since 99% of people are naturally not attracted to their siblings and do not view them as sexual beings, it's not really a big problem.

For instance, I can objectively realize that by societal standards, my sister is exceptionally beautiful, but I do not desire her sexually in any way...whereas I would if she weren't my sister and I saw her walking down the street.

[Trainwreck2100]

incest also produces mentally disabled children. it's simply a bad idea.
0
that was discussed in a seperate post the reason incest is a crime is cause a)it's fuckin nasty b)the retard thing. The incest being discussed here is between two sibling incapable of reproduction. If they can't reproduce then where's the justification for it being illegal.

[mogrovejo]

After all, people who would vote against the legalization of marriage between siblings are asshats and bigots or not?

[Findog]

So, homosexuality isn't criminal if coerced or occuring between an adult and a child? Or are you associating incest with pedophilia?

Homosexuality and pedophilia are two entirely different orientations. A pedophile that fathers a child and then has sex with it when it reaches pre-pubescence is guilty of both incest and child molestation.

[mogrovejo]

Homosexuality and pedophilia are two entirely different orientations. A pedophile that fathers a child and then has sex with it when it reaches pre-pubescence is guilty of both incest and child molestation.

Uh? What about a homosexual who sexually molests a child of the same sex? He's also a criminal, no?

What if a father has sex with his son or daughter with their consent (and after they reached the age of consent)? What's wrong with that? Why is this a crime? Why don't you defend the rights of these people? Why are you trying to associate the incest to pedophilia? What are you trying to insinuate here? And by aying "it's not natural..."? And who cares about the children? Marriage is about love between consenting adults, not about pregnancies, right?

[Findog]

Uh? What about a homosexual who sexually molests a child of the same sex? He's also a criminal, no?

That's a pedophile, not a homosexual. A homosexual forms age-appropriate relationships with people of the same gender. Some pedophiles molest children of the opposite gender. Do we call them heterosexual? No, we call them pedophiles.


What if a father has sex with his son or daughter with their consent (and after they reached the age of consent)? What's wrong with that? Why is this a crime? Why don't you defend the rights of these people?

That is not a crime in my book. Don't project views onto me.

[mogrovejo]

Findog, people who would vote against the legalization of marriage between siblings are asshats and bigots or not? Yes or no?

The fact that you keep on associating incest to pedophilia and calling it "unnatural" and "seen as tasteless" scares me.

[Findog]

Findog, people who would vote against the legalization of marriage between siblings are asshats and bigots or not? Yes or no?


People who vote against the legalization of marriage between consenting adults are inhibiting the rights of their fellow citizens.



The fact that you keep on associating incest to pedophilia scares me and calling it "unnatural" and "seen as tasteless" scares me


Incest between consenting adults is not pedophilia. Incest that occurs between an adult and a child doubles as pedophilia. How is this hard for you?

[Trainwreck2100]

So Fin just to establish your position and I don't want to put words in your mouth so forgive me if I'm wrong and correct me as such.
"Findog is ok with a sibling marriage as long as its consentual, sterile, and of age"

[Findog]

So Fin just to establish your position and I don't want to put words in your mouth so forgive me if I'm wrong and correct me as such.
"Findog is ok with a sibling marriage as long as its consentual, sterile, and of age"

Yes. It should not be illegal. No church would ever perform such a ceremony, but such couples should be able to get a marriage license as long as the government is in the business of issuing them.

[balli]

If the question instead, were

Findog, people who would vote against the legalization of marriage between siblings, with no reproductive ability, are asshats and bigots or not? Yes or no?

I'm not findog, but I would say, yes, at the very least they're meddlesome asshats interfering in the business if others. Non-producing, incestuous people don't really exist in large enough numbers to say there's any bigotry being perpetrated against them, but hypothetically if they did, it would be bigoted to deny them private rights as their execution of such rights would pose no public threat whatsoever.

[mogrovejo]

People who vote against the legalization of marriage between consenting adults are inhibiting the rights of their fellow citizens.


I thought the reason you called Miller a bigot was because he was inhibiting the rights of their fellow citizens.

After all, I was wrong. You refuse to call bigots and asshats to people who do exactly the same thing.


And please, stop trying to associate people who practice incest with pedophiles. Homosexual acts between consenting adults is not pedophilia. Homosexual acts that occurs between an adult and a child doubles as pedophilia. Heterosexual acts between consenting adults is not pedophilia. Etc. Etc. Are people who practice incest more prone to be pedophiles? I don't think so. Therefore, let's stop with these erroneous and bigoted associations, okay?

[mogrovejo]

If the question instead, were


I'm not findog, but I would say, yes, at the very least they're meddlesome asshats interfering in the business if others. Non-producing, incestuous people don't really exist in large enough numbers to say there's any bigotry being perpetrated against them, but hypothetically if they did, it would be bigoted to deny them private rights as their execution of such rights would pose no public threat whatsoever.

Thanks for answering. What's the problem with the reproductive ability? I dont' get that. Isn't the reproductive ability a privacy right? Why should two healthy, adult brother and sister in love with each other be denied of their rights as citizens?

[Findog]

I thought the reason you called Miller a bigot was because he was inhibiting the rights of their fellow citizens.

After all, I was wrong. You refuse to call bigots and asshats to people who do exactly the same thing.



They are bigots if they do the same thing. I agree with this sentiment:



I'm not findog, but I would say, yes, at the very least they're meddlesome asshats interfering in the business if others



And please, stop trying to associate people who practice incest with pedophiles.

Considering I haven't once equated incest between consenting adults with pedophilia, could you please stop beating that dead horse? An adult who has sex with a child is a pedophile, whether the child is a blood relative or not.

[Trainwreck2100]

Thanks for answering. What's the problem with the reproductive ability? I dont' get that. Isn't the reproductive ability a privacy right? Why should two healthy, adult brother and sister in love with each other be denied of their rights as citizens?

cause their baby could grow up a retard due to a snaller gene pool

[baseline bum]

Yeah, unless it was voluntary. I don't have a problem with people who practice SM.

If it isn't voluntary, then I have a problem - as it is a violation of the natural rights of another person.

Yeah, women in Islamic countries have the same rights as American women into SM. :lmao

[balli]

Isn't the reproductive ability a privacy right?
Not incestuously. A bunch of fucked up incest babies stand as a collective public threat.

[mogrovejo]

If the question instead, were


I'm not findog, but I would say, yes, at the very least they're meddlesome asshats interfering in the business if others. Non-producing, incestuous people don't really exist in large enough numbers to say there's any bigotry being perpetrated against them, but hypothetically if they did, it would be bigoted to deny them private rights as their execution of such rights would pose no public threat whatsoever.

So, being the subject of bigotry is a question of numbers? This is a very interesting theory. I mean, if there were only 12 jews in the entire country, would that number be large enough to say there's any bigotry perpetrated against them?

[Findog]

Thanks for answering. What's the problem with the reproductive ability? I dont' get that. Isn't the reproductive ability a privacy right? Why should two healthy, adult brother and sister in love with each other be denied of their rights as citizens?

Incest leads to an increase in the frequency of homozygotes.

[Trainwreck2100]

So, being the subject of bigotry is a question of numbers? This is a very interesting theory. I mean, if there were only 12 jews in the entire country, would that number be large enough to say there's any bigotry perpetrated against them?

They'd all be rich enough that it wouldn't matter

[mogrovejo]

Not incestuously. A bunch of fucked up incest babies stand as a collective public threat.

How? Is it contagious? And they can always abort or opt for not having kids. Anyway, what do you have to do with that?

And what's exactly the equation between marriage and having kids? Incestuous people can have children together out of marriage, right?

[Findog]

So, being the subject of bigotry is a question of numbers? This is a very interesting theory. I mean, if there were only 12 jews in the entire country, would that number be large enough to say there's any bigotry perpetrated against them?

What he's saying is that there aren't enough adult married siblings in existence to be the target of an organized campaign of discrimination of bigotry, not that it's okay if only a few are a target of such a campaign.

[mogrovejo]

What's the difference between a meddlesome asshat and a complete bigot and asshat? I know: your relative level of tolerance towards different sexual inclinations.

Oh well, maybe some day you'll learn to be more open-minded relatively to others who are different than you.

[mogrovejo]

What he's saying is that there aren't enough adult married siblings in existence to be the target of an organized campaign of discrimination of bigotry, not that it's okay if only a few are a target of such a campaign.

Of course, there aren't married siblings in existence.

If one, just one, couple of siblings wants to marry and they can't, then, by your own definition, they're being victims of bigotry and discrimination.

[balli]

Anyway, what do you have to do with that?
The collective public good is dependent on the intelligence of the collective public. My descendants would stand to lose comparative quality of life if the citizenry's genepool were dumbed down by incestuous reproduction .

Incestuous people can have children together out of marriage, right?I don't know. I could see it being illegal actually. Maybe those kids go straight to DCFS.

[mogrovejo]

Yeah, women in Islamic countries have the same rights as American women into SM. :lmao

You misunderstood me. I never said that. Just that I don't think that it should be illegal or criminalized people consensually beating each other with bare hands or the artifacts of their liking, no matter the zone of the globe they are or their personal reasons to engage in such acts.

[mogrovejo]

I don't know. I could see it being illegal actually. Maybe those kids go straight to DCFS.

Uh? I didn't ask if it was illegal, just if they can. I'm pretty sure a brother and a sister don't need a marriage license to, with the contribution of both, create a pregnancy.

Anyway, I understand you support the principle that the allowance to marriage is linked with the reproductive issues; and that you don't support the rights to marriage of two consenting, healthy adults.

[balli]

two consenting, healthy adults.
They're healthy. The child's not. Why do you hate children?

[ChumpDumper]

his wife has some serious kancles

http://a.espncdn.com/media/apphoto/5bdbbf71-f974-408c-a8e8-38609bd64db2.jpgI'd venture a guess that she has edema caused by type 2 diabetes as well.

Sorry to interrupt.

[angelbelow]

type 2 is bad but it is preventable even if your family history is filled with members with type 2. i feel bad for the guy but he obviously didn't respect his body.