Pros and Cons of the Stimulus Bill

[SpursFanFirst]

For those of us wondering what's all involved in this bill...


Stimulus 101: What's in the bills
The plan by Obama and congressional Democrats to revive the economy is taking shape. Here's what we know so far.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/26/news/economy/stimulus_101/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- You've probably noticed: The Obama administration and Congress are talking about spending an unprecedented sum of money to try to revive the economy.

President Obama and House Democrats laid down the marker with an $825 billion package of spending and tax cuts. The Senate version will be taken up by two committees on Tuesday.

Dozens of proposals. Hundreds of pages of legislation. Billions of dollars.

What are some of the headline proposals, and what is the debate all about? The legislation is a work in progress, but here is an overview.

Infrastructure
The case for it: By investing in renewable energy, health care, education and modern construction projects, the Obama administration expects to create between 3 million and 4 million jobs and address key sustainability issues.

The case against it: Opponents argue the spending will lead to a rapidly increasing and unsustainable deficit. They also say that a majority of infrastructure projects will take too long to implement.

Construction projects: $90 billion. Fund the rebuilding of crumbling roads and bridges, build clean water and flood-control mechanisms and provide funding for mass-transit systems.

Education: $142 billion. Rebuild thousands of schools by modernizing classrooms, labs and libraries.

Renewable energy: $54 billion. Double production of alternative energy in the next three years. Weatherize low-income homes, modernize 75% of federal buildings and update the nation's electrical grid with a new, cost-efficient "smart" grid.

Health-care records: $20 billion. Modernize the health care system by computerizing all of the nations' medical records in the next five years.

Science, research and technology: $16 billion. Invest in science facilities, research and instrumentation to create new industries, new jobs and medical breakthroughs. Expand broadband Internet access in rural and underserved areas.

State relief
The case for it: As states face budget shortfalls, Obama's plan seeks to help states pay for Medicaid and unemployment benefits. State fiscal relief will be allocated to prevent increases in state and local taxes, or cuts in government services.

The case against it: Opponents say the bill should focus on job creation that will make an immediate impact the economy.

Medicaid: $87 billion. Increase Federal Medicaid Assistance Percentage so states do not have to cut eligibility for Medicaid due to budget shortfalls.

Law enforcement: $4 billion for states and municipalities for law enforcement.

Safety net
The case for it: Obama proposed temporary programs to protect those most vulnerable to the effects of the recession.

The case against it: As with state budget relief, opponents say the bill is too big and should simply aim to create new jobs. Some lawmakers have said some of the "safety net" spending provisions are wasteful, and many have called the bill unfocused.

Unemployment benefits: $43 billion. Extend through December 2009 emergency unemployment insurance assistance to states. Increase weekly unemployment benefits by $25, and provide incentives for states to expand unemployment coverage.

Cobra: $39 billion. Tax credit for recently laid-off employees to help pay for discounted health care. Obama estimates the plan will help 8.5 million people who recently lost their jobs.

Feeding the hungry: $20 billion. Increase food stamp benefits by 13%, and provide support for food banks, school lunch programs and WIC.

Tax cuts for individuals
The case for it: Throughout his campaign, the president pushed for tax cuts for low- and middle-income families. As a form of stimulus, it has the added advantage of being paid out faster than other provisions in the bill, and economists say those income groups are most likely to spend rather than save the money.

The case against it: Opponents say the size of tax cuts for both individuals and businesses do not go far enough and don't make up a big enough portion of the entire package. Furthermore, they oppose giving tax breaks to people who get back more money from the government than they pay in income and payroll taxes.

Middle-class tax cut: $145 billion. Tax cut amounting to $500 a year for individuals and $1,000 for couples. The full credit would be limited to those making $75,000 or less ($150,000 or less for workers filing joint returns).

Low-income tax cut: $5 billion. Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is a refundable credit for low-income workers. Furthermore, the Make Work Pay Credit would be refundable, meaning that even tax filers without any tax liability - typically very low-income workers - would receive one.

Child tax credit: Up to $18 billion. Temporary increase in the amount of the child tax-credit that would be refundable.

Tax cuts for businesses
The case for it: Obama's plan seeks to help ease the tax burden for small businesses, as well as allow companies suffering losses because of the downturn to get some tax relief by applying losses to more years in which they booked a profit.

The case against it: Opponents say too small of a percentage of the total package - 2.7% - goes to small businesses, and to businesses in general.

Small business write-offs: Obama would increase the amount of expenses small businesses can write off to $250,000 in 2009 and 2010 from the current $125,000 level.

Tax cuts for companies suffering losses: Up to $17 billion over 10 years. Obama would temporarily broaden the "net-operating loss carryback" to five years, up from two years currently. The provision would let companies apply their 2008 and 2009 losses to past and future tax bills so they can get money back on taxes they've already paid or would otherwise have to pay.

Any thoughts?

[angrydude]

why don't I stimulate myself by getting a new bathroom?

[SnakeBoy]

Construction projects: $90 billion.

To paraphase Jim Kramer on Hardball, ok that takes care of Boston what about the rest of the country.

[Winehole23]

To paraphase Jim Kramer on Hardball, ok that takes care of Boston what about the rest of the country.Well, it's only a first installment.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

From CNN of all places...


Public construction projects: $232B
Renewable energy: $54B
Computerize health-care records: $20B
Science, research and technology: $16B
Increase Medicaid: $87B
Law enforcement: $4B
Unemployment benefits: $43B
Unemployment Cobra: $39B
Feeding the hungry: $20B
$500 Rebates for individuals making under $75K: $145B
Additional Rebates for low-income individuals: $5B
Temporary increase in child tax credit: $18B
Increase small business expense write-offs: $17B
Temporary increase “net-operating loss carryback” to five years past/future: $17B

90% Democraptic pork, 10% real help...

[Rogue]

It's one thing to say while it's another thing to do. Obama expects everything to go well as he plans, and I really hope he can do exactly what he has promised. However, we shouldn't have been buried in such problems had we got that amount of money, the problem we are facing is just caused by our lack of money. Man, we used to be the most wealthy nation in the world and had stored tons of gold in the cellar underground Manhattan, the gold is still there and well guarded but our cash is just short from need. We have spent so much money on those fucking wars against Afghanistan and Iraq' former goverments but we have gotten nothing valuable in return but endless chaos and troubles. It was reasonable to dash Afghanistan in order to deminish the masion of Taliban and Al Quada, but why the F did we fight Iraq's former government? Who the F induced our senate and congress to permit launching the war? I'm not blaming former president bush but I think there should still be someone or some groupe to take resposibility for our depression. The war demolished a fucking dictatorship government and set the Iraqis free sequently, we heavily damaged the terrorism while harming ourselves even harder. I mean it doesn't cost so much money to fight the terrorists only, Uncle Sam has spent much more money in Iraq since the War offcially ended than he had spent during the entire war period. Our troops are great enough to deserve the money we have spent for them but they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bush shouldn't have expanded the anti-terrorism war to Iraq and buried our troops deeply into ashes and ruins. Never to mention the lives of soldiers who had contributed their last drop of blood for our great nation.

Obama is elected to cover Bush's ass, to change the situation and bring our economy back to life. However Obama is neither God nor a goose which can lay gold eggs, we are still short of money but Obama can't creat any. We expect some change from our new president, but it seems that all the changes he has brought us are just words and the host of the white house only. Man, I want to see some new faces in the cabinet and senate, but what I have seen are just the same old people who haven't done any brilliant work during bush's administration. The biggest mistake Obama has made by now is nominating Hilary Clinton as his SOS, but who the F knows how many more he'll make in the 4 years to come? Hilary Clinton isn't capable to act as the secretary of state IMO, herself is not capable enough, not to mention the bad effects from her pansy husband. Man, I have send millions of e-mails to the white house suggesting he nominate halle berry as his SOS but he just ignored them and let his personal secretary throw them in the dustbin. Man, Obama is intending to retreat our troops from Iraq but who the F knows whether those terrorists will also return and threat the crasp liberty our troops have erected in Iraq. we need our allies there to help us control the unfriendly counties but will they still surpport us that consistantly as they did? Halle berry is 1/8 jewish so I bet she is more aware of and more similar to the middle east and the people there, Berry would be more much more efficient than Rice in mideast, but obama just nominated hilary who is famouse her critical restrictions and requests on her former president husband. Our former president looks like a baby when he stands with our current sos. Man, I even think laura bush is much better than hilary clinton, never to mention halle berry who is more capable and sensational than both of them. halle berry was born in a family which is built up of a black husband and a white wife, unfortunately her black father left her when she was just 4yrs old, she has been estranged with her father since her parents devorced at her 4. halle berry represents both the black and white community so well that she is very capable to act as our SOS but no one has shown any agreement with me. Why the F is halle berry rejected from senate and cabinate? just because of her complex background? man, halle berry is not a communist or terrorist, nor does she have any relationship with Nazi or fascist. Why the F can't she become our SOS, or even a common senator in federal senate or even state senate? I still don't understand why there are so many racists in the CA and the rest of the states, and some racists even intimidated to cut her bady into 100 fucking pieces. fuck these racists... I'm always out of myself when I'm extremely tired and sleepy, so pardon me if I've provoked some of clinton fans or bush supporters.

best wishes for Obama and his administration, and best wishes to halle berry and her bady as well. thank you for reading through my article above, I know I had deliverd little news or intellegence through it, just enjoy it as kind of fun, thanks.

[balli]

90% Democraptic pork, 10% real help...
You have no basis for saying that. You can't just make up numbers based on your own fly by the seat of your fucked up pants politics.

[Trainwreck2100]

Cobra: $39 billion. Tax credit for recently laid-off employees to help pay for discounted health care. Obama estimates the plan will help 8.5 million people who recently lost their jobs.


You know shits hit the fan when Cobra Commander needs a bailout

[spurspf]

From CNN of all places...



90% Democraptic pork, 10% real help...


Especially when you know you can be solid and give it to a corporation who will know 100% what to do with it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the problem with renewable energy alternative resources....and the rebates that come with it....its still damn expensive to even buy solar panels fitted onto roofs....

[balli]

It's one thing to say while it's another thing to do. Obama expects everything to go well as he plans, and I really hope he can do exactly what he has promised. However, we shouldn't have been buried in such problems had we got that amount of money, the problem we are facing is just caused by our lack of money. Man, we used to be the most wealthy nation in the world and had stored tons of gold in the cellar underground Manhattan, the gold is still there and well guarded but our cash is just short from need. We have spent so much money on those fucking wars against Afghanistan and Iraq' former goverments but we have gotten nothing valuable in return but endless chaos and troubles. It was reasonable to dash Afghanistan in order to deminish the masion of Taliban and Al Quada, but why the F did we fight Iraq's former government? Who the F induced our senate and congress to permit launching the war? I'm not blaming former president bush but I think there should still be someone or some groupe to take resposibility for our depression. The war demolished a fucking dictatorship government and set the Iraqis free sequently, we heavily damaged the terrorism while harming ourselves even harder. I mean it doesn't cost so much money to fight the terrorists only, Uncle Sam has spent much more money in Iraq since the War offcially ended than he had spent during the entire war period. Our troops are great enough to deserve the money we have spent for them but they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bush shouldn't have expanded the anti-terrorism war to Iraq and buried our troops deeply into ashes and ruins. Never to mention the lives of soldiers who had contributed their last drop of blood for our great nation.

Obama is elected to cover Bush's ass, to change the situation and bring our economy back to life. However Obama is neither God nor a goose which can lay gold eggs, we are still short of money but Obama can't creat any. We expect some change from our new president, but it seems that all the changes he has brought us are just words and the host of the white house only. Man, I want to see some new faces in the cabinet and senate, but what I have seen are just the same old people who haven't done any brilliant work during bush's administration. The biggest mistake Obama has made by now is nominating Hilary Clinton as his SOS, but who the F knows how many more he'll make in the 4 years to come? Hilary Clinton isn't capable to act as the secretary of state IMO, herself is not capable enough, not to mention the bad effects from her pansy husband. Man, I have send millions of e-mails to the white house suggesting he nominate halle berry as his SOS but he just ignored them and let his personal secretary throw them in the dustbin. Man, Obama is intending to retreat our troops from Iraq but who the F knows whether those terrorists will also return and threat the crasp liberty our troops have erected in Iraq. we need our allies there to help us control the unfriendly counties but will they still surpport us that consistantly as they did? Halle berry is 1/8 jewish so I bet she is more aware of and more similar to the middle east and the people there, Berry would be more much more efficient than Rice in mideast, but obama just nominated hilary who is famouse her critical restrictions and requests on her former president husband. Our former president looks like a baby when he stands with our current sos. Man, I even think laura bush is much better than hilary clinton, never to mention halle berry who is more capable and sensational than both of them. halle berry was born in a family which is built up of a black husband and a white wife, unfortunately her black father left her when she was just 4yrs old, she has been estranged with her father since her parents devorced at her 4. halle berry represents both the black and white community so well that she is very capable to act as our SOS but no one has shown any agreement with me. Why the F is halle berry rejected from senate and cabinate? just because of her complex background? man, halle berry is not a communist or terrorist, nor does she have any relationship with Nazi or fascist. Why the F can't she become our SOS, or even a common senator in federal senate or even state senate? I still don't understand why there are so many racists in the CA and the rest of the states, and some racists even intimidated to cut her bady into 100 fucking pieces. fuck these racists... I'm always out of myself when I'm extremely tired and sleepy, so pardon me if I've provoked some of clinton fans or bush supporters.

best wishes for Obama and his administration, and best wishes to halle berry and her bady as well. thank you for reading through my article above, I know I had deliverd little news or intellegence through it, just enjoy it as kind of fun, thanks.

Serious question. Was that methamphetamine induced?

[boutons_]

"Obama expects everything to go well as he plans"

I doubt he seriously expects that. He's not a "Mission Accomplished" dumbfuck.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Is this a scalpel or a hatchet?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You have no basis for saying that. You can't just make up numbers based on your own fly by the seat of your fucked up pants politics.

How much of that listed do you see helping out the common man? Yeah, I exaggerated a little with the 90% thing, but the point is this is being sold as 'we have to do something right now to help the common American!'

Is the common American a high paid scientist at the CDC?

Is the common American one who can engineer computerized health care record technology?

Does the common American fall under the stereotype of 'science, research, and technology'?

One of Obama's buddies in D.C. said white construction workers won't get any of that $232 billion for construction projects (funny, no outrage from the media, but if someone said black or mexican workers wouldn't get a dime of it, there'd be riots and marches and calls for peoples' heads in the media). How is that not a racist appropriation of funds?

There is so much bullshit in this bill. And let's be honest - do you see Congress pulling back these monies in the future? Hell no. They just set a new baseline for government spending.

Oh, and this little stimulus package just added roughly $3000 to the tab for every person in this country that must be paid back. All so some folks can get a $500 check and the Demorats can pay back their campaign financiers.

Fucking awesome.

[clambake]

588,000 new jobless claims. fuck cobra and medicaid. right aggie?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

balli, I don't have time right now to throw out an alternative. I'll try tonight or over the weekend.


588,000 new jobless claims. fuck cobra and medicaid. right aggie?

Where did I say that? I don't have a problem with some of the stimulus, but how is money sent to the CDC for STD education helping save jobs and provide benefits?

How is $900K to Austin for a fucking disc golf park helping with Cobra and Medicaid?

The list goes on and on...

[spurster]

I don't like it much. No debt is risk-free (didn't we just relearn this the hard way?), and this is going to add a whopper to the deficit. One positive is that the interest on treasury bills is very low, so if the US is to add debt now and pay back with surpluses later, this is not the worst time to do that. However, with the GOP forever refusing taxes to pay for anything, perhaps any large increase in the deficit is unwise.

I think too much of this is short-term, pinning hopes on a quick start of the economy. I would rather see more on upgrading/maintaining our transportation network, our communication network, and clean energy. However, the Democrats don't want a long recession as they look ahead to the next election cycle.

[clambake]

How is $900K to Austin for a fucking disc golf park helping with Cobra and Medicaid?

exercise? just kidding. why do they need a park specifically for that? is there no more open space in texas?

[Shastafarian]

How much of that listed do you see helping out the common man?
Public construction projects: $232B
Renewable energy: $54B
Computerize health-care records: $20B
Science, research and technology: $16B
Increase Medicaid: $87B
Law enforcement: $4B
Unemployment benefits: $43B
Unemployment Cobra: $39B
Feeding the hungry: $20B
$500 Rebates for individuals making under $75K: $145B
Additional Rebates for low-income individuals: $5B
Temporary increase in child tax credit: $18B
Increase small business expense write-offs: $17B
Temporary increase “net-operating loss carryback” to five years past/future: $17B

Oh...you probably meant the republican common man. Sorry, I don't see any "Prescription Pill Deregulation" or "Stick Removal (Ass Region)" appropriations. So I guess you're onto something.



Yeah, I exaggerated a little with the 90% thing, but the point is this is being sold as 'we have to do something right now to help the common American!'And its purpose is to help many people.


Is the common American a high paid scientist at the CDC? Have you ever heard of pay-scale? I don't think you have.


Is the common American one who can engineer computerized health care record technology?wow...such an ignorant comment.


Does the common American fall under the stereotype of 'science, research, and technology'?See, I thought the last one was bad. This one is worse. Just more proof republicans hate science! Ok not really, but it's proof you hate america.


One of Obama's buddies in D.C. said white construction workers won't get any of that $232 billion for construction projects (funny, no outrage from the media, but if someone said black or mexican workers wouldn't get a dime of it, there'd be riots and marches and calls for peoples' heads in the media). How is that not a racist appropriation of funds?Ya know, I hate it when people lie. Reich didn't say that. That's why there was no outrage from the media you hack.


There is so much bullshit in this bill. And let's be honest - do you see Congress pulling back these monies in the future? Hell no. They just set a new baseline for government spending. Waaaaah. Where were you when congress and the previous president was spending us into the poor house?


Oh, and this little stimulus package just added roughly $3000 to the tab for every person in this country that must be paid back.Do you know what "stimulus" means? I don't think you do.
All so some folks can get a $500 check and the Demorats can pay back their campaign financiers.Nope, he doesn't know what it means.


Fucking awesome.Yeah it is.

[doobs]

I heard Obama's planning on giving needles to welfare queen junkies who promise to raise their children as Muslims.

True story.

[SpursFanFirst]

How much of that listed do you see helping out the common man? Yeah, I exaggerated a little with the 90% thing, but the point is this is being sold as 'we have to do something right now to help the common American!'

Is the common American a high paid scientist at the CDC?

Is the common American one who can engineer computerized health care record technology?

Does the common American fall under the stereotype of 'science, research, and technology'?

One of Obama's buddies in D.C. said white construction workers won't get any of that $232 billion for construction projects (funny, no outrage from the media, but if someone said black or mexican workers wouldn't get a dime of it, there'd be riots and marches and calls for peoples' heads in the media). How is that not a racist appropriation of funds?

There is so much bullshit in this bill. And let's be honest - do you see Congress pulling back these monies in the future? Hell no. They just set a new baseline for government spending.

Oh, and this little stimulus package just added roughly $3000 to the tab for every person in this country that must be paid back. All so some folks can get a $500 check and the Demorats can pay back their campaign financiers.

Fucking awesome.

I'm not at all being sarcastic when I ask this (as many times we are on this site)...
How do you think the "common man" can be helped by any stimulus package.
How would the government have to divvy that money up in order to help the average person?

[ClingingMars]

You know shits hit the fan when Cobra Commander needs a bailout

:lmao

[SpursFanFirst]

balli, I don't have time right now to throw out an alternative. I'll try tonight or over the weekend.



Where did I say that? I don't have a problem with some of the stimulus, but how is money sent to the CDC for STD education helping save jobs and provide benefits?

How is $900K to Austin for a fucking disc golf park helping with Cobra and Medicaid?

The list goes on and on...

It's funny you mentioned this because, when I first saw this story posted on CNN, I went there specifically to see if they talked about this.
I'd heard about it on tv, but didn't see anything said in the article.
Did you read this in an article, and if so, that would be perfect to add to this thread! I'd love to read it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/29/economic-stimulus-bills-allot-millions-for-std-pre/

SFF...


The two sides of Capitol Hill appear to be engaging in a bidding war to see who can put more money toward the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases in its version of the economic stimulus bill.

The House included $335 million in its package. But the Senate, not to be outdone, provided $400 million in STD spending in its bill.


Republicans and some Democrats have complained that the recovery bill is loaded with items that would provide little short-term help in boosting the economy. Republicans say the bill instead has become a vehicle for congressional Democrats to get approval for projects they've been unable to secure in recent years with congressional Republicans and President Bush able to foil their efforts.

Bonus! $75 million for smoking cessation... yep, talk about job stimulation :tu

[SpursFanFirst]

Thanks for the link, Aggie.
I'll have to check it out when I get home.

[SpursFanFirst]

Aggie:

While I think promoting good health is important (immunization programs, health screenings and counseling, smoking-cessation programs, scholarships and loan repayment for health professionals, research, and evidence-based disease-prevention strategies), I agree that there's no place for it in this stimulus package.
This just doesn't make sense. No wonder there were so many "nays."

Mike Pence (R - Indiana) was against it, and this was one of his reasons.

[mogrovejo]

Massive generational wealth transfer (which curiously will affect negatively African Americans more than any other demographic), pork fest, pay off to Obama constituents. How can anyone seriously believe that this pork fest can work - or any other stimulus package - may "work" sounds bizarre to me. It'll only make things worse on the long run.

[Winehole23]

from Minyanville.


Currency Destruction (http://www.minyanville.com/articles/treasury-loan-currency-FDIC/index/a/20840)

Mr Practical (http://www.minyanville.com/gazette/bios.htm?bio=86)

The details of the good bank/ bad bank plan have yet to be revealed, but it's important to remember one important point: Any program initiated by the government is a zero sum game, at best. The government can't create wealth/productivity; it can only transfer wealth from one entity to another.

A government given the power to create money (debt) out of nothing, as our current financial system (http://www.minyanville.com/articles/treasury-loan-currency-FDIC/index/a/20840#) has been allowed to do since the creation of the Federal Reserve (particularly after Bretton Woods) results in the destruction of the value of the currency. Thomas Jefferson would label our current system unconstitutional.

The plan is a derivation of all the previous plans, with a new name and a new sponsor - the FDIC. Does anyone believe the FDIC can manage bad assets any better than the private market did? What the FDIC can do, with the help of the government, is create money (debt) to buy bad debt (I'm not going to call them “assets”). But what price do they pay the banks for it?

If a bad loan (http://www.minyanville.com/articles/treasury-loan-currency-FDIC/index/a/20840#) has a 50% chance of being paid back, perhaps its market value is $0.60 on the dollar. If the government pays $0.40 on the dollar for it they have a reasonable chance of getting the value back (as long as the situation does not deteriorate further).

But if the government buys the bad debts at $0.40 from banks, banks will have to take huge losses and possible go bankrupt. This is because they have no capital left to absorb those losses. I would guess the government would have to pay $0.75 on the dollar for banks to be able to transfer/break-even. This is probably what the government is thinking. So the chances of getting that money back for taxpayers is very poor.

To increase those odds, the government will then transfer wealth from the productive ones among you to those who have to pay back that debt. They will pay the healthcare and education and give poor jobs to people in debt. They will borrow the money to do this from our children. Essentially they will create money today and worry about paying it back later. When you create money, you devalue the money.

This is what the government plan is: To further destroy the value of the currency to try to help people and the economy. But remember: An economy is based on production, not the ability to borrow. The standard of living is based on wealth, which is created by production or income (http://www.minyanville.com/articles/treasury-loan-currency-FDIC/index/a/20840#) generation, not the ability to borrow that wealth from someone else.

We were borrowing from the rest of the world to keep our standard of living high. Now we're increasingly borrowing from our children, who will eventually experience either much higher taxes or a much lower dollar; either will lower their standard of living.

But my words will fall on deaf ears. Policy is settling in. We just confirmed a Secretary of the Treasury who was directly responsible, as head of the New York Federal Reserve, for monitoring proper capital at all of our money center banks. They failed, because they didn't have enough capital to support the vast lending they were doing. Geithner isn't going to change his tune.

The one thing we can be sure of: The more government says these plans will “get us back on track to long-term 'healthy' economic growth," the less that will be true. We're only sustaining a too-high standard of living at the expense of our children.

The more the government pays over the real price for bad loans, the less deflation there will be (debt destruction) and the quicker hyper-inflation (currency destruction) will ensue.