An unbelievable show of how much textbook publishers completely screw students over [Archive]

View Full Version : An unbelievable show of how much textbook publishers completely screw students over

baseline bum

01-29-2009, 10:20 PM

This is amazing; I was on Amazon looking for a copy of one of my favorite books of all time, Structure and Interpretation of Computer programs, and I saw two copies of the book that looked almost identical except the cover on sale for wildly different prices.

Book 1
http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Second/dp/0070004846/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233284221&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AJV8G0ZTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, Second Edition (Hardcover)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math; 2 edition (August 1, 1996)
Language: English
$111.60

Book 2
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CPGEDXMDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - 2nd Edition (MIT Electrical Engineering and Computer Science)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: The MIT Press; 2 edition (July 25, 1996)
Language: English
$59.04

I was in shock. The exact same edition of the same book, both hardcovers, and one is twice as much. Then I read the critique from a Caltech professor whose class uses this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Press-edition-McGraw-Hills-131/forum/FxEVZS18MMXLUH/Tx2T565ZJTXVMWN/1/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&asin=0262011530

As I tell my students, the MIT press version uses dark blue ink (really violet) on the cover, whereas the McGraw-Hill book uses light blue ink. Obviously, light blue ink is so much more expensive than dark blue ink as to more than double the price of the entire book.

Snark aside, the real reason is that textbook publishers gouge the textbook-buying public, and specifically the bulk-buyers. I tried to bulk-buy the MIT Press version, hoping to save money for my students, but I was told that only the McGraw-Hill version could be purchased in bulk (e.g. 100 copies at a time, for a course). I find this system reprehensible, but don't blame the authors; they've put the entire contents of the book on the MIT Press website where it can be read for free. I've met two of the authors and they are wonderful people.

Note that there is exactly zero, zip, nada difference between the two editions. They are identical except for the cover.

Sickening. Like the prof said, this book is completely free to read online; one of the authors, Hal Abelson, is the founder of the Free Software Foundation (Its most famous work is in funding the GNU project; the one that has given us all GNU/Linux for free both as in free beer and as in freedom). The other author, Sussman, is also a member of the FSF and publishes his texts online for free also. It's certainly not greed of the authors causing this shit.

Here's the full book online; if you have any interest in computer science, this is maybe the best book ever written on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

Fuck you McGraw-Hill.

thispego

01-29-2009, 10:22 PM

damn, that's your favorite book of all time?

baseline bum

01-29-2009, 10:25 PM

damn, that's your favorite book of all time?

Haha. You went to school once, right? You're not outraged at how these publishers shit all over students who don't have much money to begin with?

baseline bum

01-29-2009, 10:27 PM

damn, that's your favorite book of all time?

... and yes, it is.

thispego

01-29-2009, 10:30 PM

Haha. You went to school once, right? You're not outraged at how these publishers shit all over students who don't have much money to begin with?

oh yeah man, total bullshit. only thing that made buying them bearable was knowing i could go back to the bookstore and seel them back for about 30%-40% return. otherwise ida just buddied up with someone and mooched off their book. lol

baseline bum

01-29-2009, 10:35 PM

oh yeah man, total bullshit. only thing that made buying them bearable was knowing i could go back to the bookstore and seel them back for about 30%-40% return. otherwise ida just buddied up with someone and mooched off their book. lol

LOL. I eventually quit buying the textbooks too, unless they were something I was going to keep for sure after the class was over. Thankfully, our library was awesome and I'd just keep checking out better textbooks on the subject and study from them.

Phenomanul

01-29-2009, 10:39 PM

I highly recommend this book. :tu

and shame on McGraw-Hill....

The Reckoning

01-29-2009, 10:47 PM

i only purchased two books this semester. the rest i look up online from the notes i take in class, or stuff the prof posts online.

Jekka

01-29-2009, 11:08 PM

My last semester at UTSA, I had to get a 300 page paperback whose list price was $120. FOR A PAPERBACK. Luckily I found it on ebay for $30, but still. Ridiculous.

balli

01-29-2009, 11:22 PM

Petty tyranny sucks.

CuckingFunt

01-29-2009, 11:37 PM

I like when professors intentionally choose inexpensive books. I have a Dada/Surrealism class this semester with an absolutely beautiful 300+ textbook that has page after page of reproductions (and, for those who don't know, art history texts are usually ridiculously expensive because of all those glossy reproductions), but the book is an older edition (from 2005, so still pretty new) and was in the bookstore for $25.00. Brand new.

thispego

01-29-2009, 11:45 PM

oooooooooook

Udokafan05

01-30-2009, 12:41 AM

I wish they gave 30-40% back. Last summer i had to spend $250 for one book for summer spanish class.

IronMexican

01-30-2009, 02:08 AM

Thank god I never finished High School.

J.T.

01-30-2009, 02:20 AM

Thank god I never finished High School.

That's usually not something to be very proud about.

Dr. Gonzo

01-30-2009, 10:34 AM

That's usually not something to be very proud about.

Actually quite the contrary. In this day and age with teachers giving out passing grades for shit work simply because the student "makes an effort" it would be quite difficult to not get through high school.

So congrats on your achievement IronSpic. You done good.

AlamoSpursFan

01-30-2009, 11:14 AM

Thank god I never finished High School.

That's usually not something to be very proud about.

"Well, the world needs ditch diggers too..." -- my dad, every time he saw my report card.

:lol

Screw you, pops! I'm a trucker! Woohoo!!!

:lmao

mrsmaalox

01-30-2009, 12:01 PM

I haven't dealt with text books in quite a while, but this thread made me smile. Especially the engineer-types! My dad is a PhD. Electrical Engineer and has such a text book fetish. I was fortunate that he paid for every one of my books, as well as my brother's and several cousins'. The only stipulation was that the books be returned to him upon course completion and he kept every single one. He has quite a library going! :)

tlongII

01-30-2009, 12:19 PM

That is BOOLSHEET! I always wondered why my textbooks were so gotdam expensive. I'm just glad I finished my college ed many years ago. I don't know how I would afford it now...

Frenzy

01-30-2009, 12:20 PM

i suppose there is no company renting out books... or even a library for this kinda thing huh

resistanze

01-30-2009, 01:19 PM

I remember in first year I spent well over a grand on textbook. By my final year, I probably spent like $100 in 8 different courses. It's a fucking cash grab.

ShoogarBear

01-30-2009, 01:25 PM

So I take it then none of you will be buying my new textbook, Fundamentals and Principles of Purchasing Classroom Reading Materials? :depressed

EricB

01-30-2009, 01:38 PM

Supply and demand.

TDMVPDPOY

01-30-2009, 01:45 PM

every year theres always a new edition and its always the same crap anyway but on different pages.....

wtf are we forced to buy new editions when the previous contains just as much the same content.....

it totally fucks up the value of the textbook when ur trying to resell it....

ps. i hate it when ur book levys end up costing more than ur school uniform or even half of your school fees....

baseline bum

01-30-2009, 02:03 PM

Supply and demand.

More like gouging students on something they are required to have (especially if the teacher sucks). If it's not a subject you're proficient in, then it's basically a monopoly opportunity. It's the American way to shit on the weak though. What student can afford 100% markups?

balli

01-30-2009, 02:13 PM

You can't buy from the official University Bookstore, even used. It's all about going to a third party seller for older editions. Which is still expensive.

Incidentally, one of the more pricey books I've purchased was a law book that was written by the professor himself and published by the University itself. It was a nice book and all, but you couldn't find it anywhere else or buy it cheaper in paperback; proving that even the schools aren't above raping you. Though I suppose law texts require a certain degree of formality.

Bender

01-30-2009, 02:22 PM

"Well, the world needs ditch diggers too..." -- my dad, every time he saw my report card.
that's from "Caddyshack"

ClingingMars

01-30-2009, 03:31 PM

probably the worst scam I've ever seen, and I've only gone through 2 semesters of it (buying books)

-Mars

Ginofan

01-30-2009, 03:33 PM

i suppose there is no company renting out books... or even a library for this kinda thing huh

Actually I've heard of this one site that rents books www.chegg.com/ but I haven't tried them out yet.

easjer

01-30-2009, 04:58 PM

I always get a kick out of the professors requiring students to buy the books they've authored or published.

TDMVPDPOY

01-30-2009, 05:09 PM

Incidentally, one of the more pricey books I've purchased was a law book that was written by the professor himself and published by the University itself. It was a nice book and all, but you couldn't find it anywhere else or buy it cheaper in paperback; proving that even the schools aren't above raping you. Though I suppose law texts require a certain degree of formality.

u know whats lame about them books, when the fkn wanker cant even answer his own questions from the text book.......

Das Texan

01-30-2009, 06:18 PM

This is why I liked my history classes.

We would just buy the actual historical books and I'd buy them all but the first one off Amazon used book store all the time.

Fucking professor's who wouldnt give the book list ahead of time!

Fuck text books. Such a bunch of bullshit.

Das Texan

01-30-2009, 06:19 PM

I always get a kick out of the professors requiring students to buy the books they've authored or published.

i had a professor in grad school like that....

however he is the #1 authority on the subject so i guess it made sense and he didnt act high and mighty about it neither...

SpursWoman

01-30-2009, 06:41 PM

My last semester at UTSA, I had to get a 300 page paperback whose list price was $120. FOR A PAPERBACK. Luckily I found it on ebay for $30, but still. Ridiculous.

They didn't have ebay in 1992 when I had to by a $50, 210 page paperback book for my Meaning of Life philosophy class. (I loved this class. LOVED it!).

But get this, it didn't even tell you what it was. :flipoff :lol

baseline bum

01-30-2009, 07:11 PM

They didn't have ebay in 1992 when I had to by a $50, 210 page paperback book for my Meaning of Life philosophy class. (I loved this class. LOVED it!).

But get this, it didn't even tell you what it was. :flipoff :lol

:lmao

spurster

01-30-2009, 10:06 PM

I always get a kick out of the professors requiring students to buy the books they've authored or published.

One of my best classes was by a professor from his own book. It worked very well because he was an excellent teacher.

caribbean_spur

01-30-2009, 10:59 PM

I had a terrible teacher for my boundary layer class and one great book (An Introduction to Boundary Layer Meteorology ) was like $350! And they wonder why students have debts.

Duff McCartney

01-30-2009, 11:06 PM

I think the book companies are definitely out to fuck students and the schools don't make it any easier.

My first semester at UTSA which was this past fall...I spent well over 300 dollars worth of books. I sold them back to the book store and got $40 dollars! What a fucking rip off. For 3 books..one of them they didn't even take back because they were going with a new edition.

Now that's a fucking crock of shit. To me...the college book "business" is the scum of the earth along with the oil industry, and the pharmeceutical/medical companies.

TDMVPDPOY

01-31-2009, 12:15 AM

do what my friends do....they fkn photocopy the whole book for $5 lmao

Viva Las Espuelas

01-31-2009, 01:06 AM

AlamoSpursFan

01-31-2009, 01:11 AM

that's from "Caddyshack"

Actually, it's one of the oldest lines in the book. They just used it in Caddyshack. And my dad used it on me. DOH! (<---that's from "The Simpsons")

Bender

02-01-2009, 02:17 PM

yeah I know it's an old line... I guess you think I'm 14 or something.

I'm probably way older than you... :toast

The Reckoning

02-01-2009, 02:52 PM

Chief

02-01-2009, 04:54 PM

On a sidenote, alway's resell your books on Amazon, you'll get more money then the Bookstores will give u

SA210

08-20-2012, 02:34 PM

A nice documentary could be made on this scam

CosmicCowboy

08-20-2012, 02:39 PM

I always get a kick out of the professors requiring students to buy the books they've authored or published.

The road to getting filthy stinking rich as an academic is to teach a class at a major state school that everyone is required to take, and then write your own textbook. My American history prof did that...he taught 5 lectures per semester, 300-400 per lecture. His book was by far the most expensive book I ever had to buy in 4 years. He warned you on day one that he did not lecture from the book and you were required to know the book and his lecture topics and that you would fail if you did not buy the book.

Jekka

08-20-2012, 08:36 PM

Now that I am in charge of budgeting for subscription database access in a college library, I can also tell you that the pricing for those subscriptions is just as big a scam as college textbooks.

Everyone would win if profs would do what many of mine did in grad school (jebus bless them), which is to not require textbooks, but instead take chapters from books (in accordance with fair use) and post the PDFs on a course site, or require reading from the subscription databases, which encourages use of the latter and brings down the price per search.

mavs>spurs

08-20-2012, 08:44 PM

DMC

08-20-2012, 08:51 PM

Girl who's going to UTSA had (had) to buy that book about mexicans crossing into the US. "The Devil's Highway". They have to sensitize these kids to the illegals being poor lost souls more worthy of our country than are we.

lol UTSA

mavs>spurs

08-20-2012, 09:02 PM

lefty

08-20-2012, 09:21 PM

i only purchased two books this semester. the rest i look up online from the notes i take in class, or stuff the prof posts online.

My last year in college, I ony bought 1 book

Teachers basically read the books content

So fuck them I decided to keep my $$$$$

DMC

08-20-2012, 09:25 PM

My last year in college, I ony bought 1 book

Teachers basically read the books content

So fuck them I decided to keep my $$$$$

Did it say "Zig Zag" on the front?

BlackSwordsMan

08-20-2012, 09:34 PM

And then you try to sell the books back to shitty L&M book store and their like YEAH WELL THIS WAS LAST SEMESTERS BOOK WE NO LONGER TAKE IT and They FUCK YOU at the drive-thru, okay? They FUCK YOU at the drive-thru! They know you're gonna be miles away before you find out you got fucked! They know you're not gonna turn around and go back, they don't care. So who gets fucked? Me. Okay, sure! I don't give a fuck! I'm not eating this tuna, okay?

AussieFanKurt

08-20-2012, 09:39 PM

I completely agree, for a subject a do.. the textbook about abnormal behaviour is $150... tha fuck?

DMC

08-20-2012, 09:52 PM

Trainwreck2100

08-20-2012, 09:57 PM

can't find any ebook bootlegs :(

Jekka

08-20-2012, 10:06 PM

can't find any ebook bootlegs :(

Do you need the book for the entire semester? If not, go to the library and ask for the book via interlibrary loan. Or, you can always check at the reserve desk to see if the prof has put a copy on reserve (usually a 2 hour checkout period).

baseline bum

08-20-2012, 10:34 PM

glad i don't have to buy the damn things anymore. if i ever go back, it'll be on the company's dime.

best thing you can do is borrow books from friends, bootleg e-books if you can, and rent textbooks if you have to. sometimes you can get cheap shit online too depending on the book. international versions work great for a fraction of the cost, they're usually exactly the same minus the cover.

Getting Chinese friends is another option. I had a friend who would buy me CS books in China for something like $5 a piece, and often the binding was better than in the legit copies for sale in the school bookstore. Had another friend from Iran who would buy bootlegs there too. Got a $100 algorithms book for something like $7, although every once in a while there is a page printed right to left. :lol

JMarkJohns

08-21-2012, 12:47 AM

As a former student, I concur. As a current professor, McGraw-Hill has paid me hundreds to simply test out their on-line technology, bribed me with free food and gift cards to use their books, and even given me multiple free copies of the text in question that I could resell unopened for nice pocket change. I now understand... That said, I've never used a McGraw-Hill text, and until they bring back $50 textbooks, I'll simply let them pay me to consider their texts.

This is amazing; I was on Amazon looking for a copy of one of my favorite books of all time, Structure and Interpretation of Computer programs, and I saw two copies of the book that looked almost identical except the cover on sale for wildly different prices.

Book 1
http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Second/dp/0070004846/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233284221&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AJV8G0ZTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, Second Edition (Hardcover)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math; 2 edition (August 1, 1996)
Language: English
$111.60

Book 2
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CPGEDXMDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - 2nd Edition (MIT Electrical Engineering and Computer Science)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: The MIT Press; 2 edition (July 25, 1996)
Language: English
$59.04

I was in shock. The exact same edition of the same book, both hardcovers, and one is twice as much. Then I read the critique from a Caltech professor whose class uses this book:

Sickening. Like the prof said, this book is completely free to read online; one of the authors, Hal Abelson, is the founder of the Free Software Foundation (Its most famous work is in funding the GNU project; the one that has given us all GNU/Linux for free both as in free beer and as in freedom). The other author, Sussman, is also a member of the FSF and publishes his texts online for free also. It's certainly not greed of the authors causing this shit.

Here's the full book online; if you have any interest in computer science, this is maybe the best book ever written on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

Fuck you McGraw-Hill.

FkLA

08-21-2012, 02:06 AM

Another way to save money is to buy the previous edition. My engineering textbooks always have the exact same material as the new edition, those faggots just mix up the problems at the end of chapters in a different order. Just ask a friend or your professor if you can copy the correct problems and you save yourself a bunch of money.

Alot of students are stupid as shit though. Ive tried to re-sale a couple of those older edition textbooks and usually the student decides to spend $100+ more on the newer edition instead, simply because the problems are in the correct order. As long as theres dumbasses like them the publishers will continue to run this scam.

Wild Cobra

08-21-2012, 02:42 AM

Did it say "Zig Zag" on the front?
It was probably this one:

http://www.cheechandchongfans.com/images/merchandise/book_autobio_paper_big.jpg

scanry

08-21-2012, 02:54 AM

I always bought text books online and saved roughly 10 - 20 % on the price. I would then sell the book back to the University Book store after the semester.

Bottom line, spend the extra buck and buy the new edition texts as they are refundable. You'll lose only 5 - 10% altogether.

mavs>spurs

08-21-2012, 02:58 AM

seriously whoever bumped this, thank you for reminding me how glad i am i don't have to go back to school soon for the first time in my life. instead, i get to go to job interviews. big improvement tbh.

FkLA

08-21-2012, 03:30 AM

Bottom line, spend the extra buck and buy the new edition texts as they are refundable. You'll lose only 5 - 10% altogether.

Fuck that. Id rather spend $40 on the previous edition instead of $200 for the 'new edition' that has the exact same material. Ill just keep the textbook if I have to, rather do that than buy a new one and re-sell it to the university bookstore for half the price they sell it for. You might even be able to find a student thats smart enough to buy it from you the following semester.

mouse

08-21-2012, 10:09 AM

Why should a textbook cost 150.00 dollars when you can find a bible in your hotel room for free?

They are both just cardboard ink and paper.

Leetonidas

08-21-2012, 11:05 AM

I only rent books now. Majority of the time you can't even sell that shit back and if you do it's only for a fraction of the price you paid.

spurs_fan_in_exile

08-21-2012, 01:26 PM

I was just talking with my worker monkeys about this shit yesterday. The latest wrinkle in the scam is selling software along with the book coupled with a good for one use registration code that gets you access to some online classroom. There's some additional content like reprinted articles, an online discussion board and it doubles as the place where all class assignments (usually multiple choice exams) are done and turned in. In other words they take a bunch of material that could probably be found free online by any student with a brain and package it with a set of online services that the campus tech support can provide (which the students fee money is already paying for anyway). There's a market out there for them though and a big one. Every time I've heard of these things being used in a class the teacher is either a grad student or a very young professor with barely concealed contempt for the fact that they are being asked to teach. Avoid having to even contemplate a curriculum and screw these inconvenient student things over? WIN-WIN!

Trainwreck2100

08-21-2012, 01:30 PM

one time i was trying to sell a book back and they said $20 it's not in demand right now. Then her partner cashier said they probably need it for the classes only in the second half of the semester. And they gave me $80 after fucking with the computer a bit. Such a scam

Jekka

08-21-2012, 09:30 PM

Hi Jekka

:toast
Hey!

I was just talking with my worker monkeys about this shit yesterday. The latest wrinkle in the scam is selling software along with the book coupled with a good for one use registration code that gets you access to some online classroom. There's some additional content like reprinted articles, an online discussion board and it doubles as the place where all class assignments (usually multiple choice exams) are done and turned in. In other words they take a bunch of material that could probably be found free online by any student with a brain and package it with a set of online services that the campus tech support can provide (which the students fee money is already paying for anyway). There's a market out there for them though and a big one. Every time I've heard of these things being used in a class the teacher is either a grad student or a very young professor with barely concealed contempt for the fact that they are being asked to teach. Avoid having to even contemplate a curriculum and screw these inconvenient student things over? WIN-WIN!
The number one reason that I didn't pursue a PhD after my masters was that I didn't want to get stuck teaching for several years. Then I ended up teaching anyway (because of course I did), but I'm not even requiring a book, much less a book that comes with proprietary software. What a load of BS. You can't take out fulfilling your PhD-track obligations on students, especially when they already feel gypped that they're being taught by a freaking grad student, or new idiot prof that resents paying his dues. That's obnoxious.