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BradLohaus
02-02-2009, 12:38 AM
From the Wall Street Journal:

Scary? Yes. Probable? Not so much, at least for the time being. Possible? Certainly, although I'll again offer that it could take years before the pieces of this prickly puzzle fall into place.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Do-we-need-a-North/story.aspx?guid={D10536AF-F929-4AF9-AD10-250B4057A907}


TODD HARRISON
How realistic is a North American currency?
Commentary: Uniting U.S., Canada, Mexico money could result from crisis

By Todd Harrison

Last update: 6:12 a.m. EST Jan. 28, 2009

Comments: 561 "World, hold on. Instead of messing with our future, open up inside." -- Bob Sinclair

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Thomas Jefferson once said: "When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on." As the global financial system pushes on a string, investors are desperately trying to hold tight.

The New World Order is upon us, full of hope, promise and a fair amount of fear. In our recent discussion regarding the direction of our country, we noted the risks of catering to conventional wisdom and the implications for the U.S. dollar. See MarketWatch column on New World Order.

The Minyanville mantra is to provide financial news you need to know before you know you need it. That's a fine line to walk, as foresight often flies in the face of mainstream acceptance.

In 2006, it seemed counterintuitive to forecast a "prolonged socioeconomic malaise entirely more depressing than a recession." See Minyanville column.

For years, the notion of an "invisible hand" was conspiracy theory until we learned that the Working Group on Financial Markets was a central policy tool. See Minyanville column.

And now, as we gaze across our historically significant horizon, we must open our minds to thoughts and ideas that may seem foreign to folks conditioned by the past and stunned by the present.
Currency crossroads

As governments take on more risk -- as they price assets on behalf of the market and transfer debt from private to public -- the common denominator, or release valve, becomes the currency.

If our economic condition is allowed to take medicine in the form of debt destruction, the greenback will appreciate, and asset classes as a whole will deflate. If we continue to inject drugs that mask symptoms rather than address the disease, the likelihood of a seismic readjustment increases in kind.

The deflationary forces in the marketplace are pervasive, and the "other side" of our current equation, hyperinflation, may be years away. Given the magnitude, breadth and pace of the global financial epidemic, however, we must explore each side of the twisted ride.

Years ago, the Federal Reserve wrote a "solution paper" regarding the need to combat zero-bound interest rates. The concern was the flight of capital from the U.S. and an option discussed was a two-tiered currency, one for U.S citizens and one for foreigners.

Canadian economist Herbert Grubel first introduced a potential manifestation of this concept in 1999. The North American Currency -- called the "Amero" in select circles -- would effectively comingle the Canadian dollar, U.S. dollar and Mexican peso.

On its face, while difficult to imagine, it makes intuitive sense. The ability to combine Canadian natural resources, American ingenuity and cheap Mexican labor would allow North America to compete better on a global stage.
Experience has taught us, however, that perceived solutions introduced by policy makers and politicians don't always have the desired effect.

Unintended consequences
I've long contended that, much like the Internet prophecy proved true -- but not before the tech crash -- so too would globalization, albeit not without painful-yet-necessary debt destruction.

To get through this, we need to go through this. If we're not allowed to go through it, foreigners will seek alternative avenues. Remember, for holders of dollar-denominated assets, seeds of discontent have been sowing under the surface for years, with the greenback off 30% since 2002.

More likely than not, global leaders will watch how our new administration attempts to tackle the financial crisis before taking drastic steps. They understand that co-dependent risk exists as a function of the derivatives that interweave our financial infrastructure. If they could disassociate from our economic ecosystem without inflicting massive damage on themselves, they would have done so long ago.

If forward policy attempts to induce more debt rather than allowing savings and obligations to align, we must respect the potential for a system shock. We may need to let a two-tier currency gain traction if the dollar meaningfully debases from current levels.

If this dynamic plays out -- and I've got no insight that it will -- the global balance of powers would fragment into four primary regions: North America, Europe, Asia and the Middle East. In such a scenario, ramifications would manifest through social unrest and geopolitical conflict.

This particular path isn't something one would wish for, but the cumulative imbalances that steadily built in our finance-based economy must be resolved one way or another. Therein lies the critical crossroads we together face as our wary world attempts to find its way.

Scary? Yes. Probable? Not so much, at least for the time being. Possible? Certainly, although I'll again offer that it could take years before the pieces of this prickly puzzle fall into place.

Effective money management dictates weighing the entire probability spectrum of potential outcomes and factoring them into our decision making process. While the notion of a seismic currency shift may seem obscure, we must respect the possibility long before it becomes front-page news.

For if we've learned anything through the last few years, proactive thought provocation is a necessary precursor to effective preparedness.

Oh, Gee!!
02-02-2009, 12:44 AM
You can spend greenbacks in all 3 countries

BradLohaus
02-02-2009, 12:52 AM
I doubt it will be that big of a deal, really.

For the average person that is.

xtremesteven33
02-02-2009, 01:23 AM
its gonna happen. Its just a matter of time.

Chief
02-02-2009, 02:33 AM
Honestly, that's a really long article so I didn't read it all

But There really should be a North American + Central American Currency.

El Salvador uses Dollars, Panama uses Dollars as well as Where I am, Costa Rica.

The price of things including the cable bill are in dollars, and the funny thing is you can't pay in dollars, just local currency, so you end up spending more local currency to make the equivalent of a dollar.

SouthernFried
02-02-2009, 07:19 AM
Well, they're already using dollars. Seems we have a north American Currency already.

Too much corruption in South America right now for me to feel comfortable tying the value of the dollars I make to.

Besides...anyone who says the US currency is off 30% since 2002 doesn't know the currency markets enough to have a valid opinion.

For example...the US dollar's valuation vs the British Pound (the most common milestone)...is actually worth 10% more today than in 2002.

It's about the same with Canadian Dollar. The Eurodollar saw some gains in the last few years...but has plummeted against the dollar in the last 6 months (losing 80% of what it gained since 2004,) extremely volatile right now.

There may be reasons behind uniting a currency (more against it, imho)...but, first prove to me you know what your talking about before you propose something.

Rogue
02-02-2009, 09:07 AM
US = North America because Canada is simply ignorable compared to states. so it won't make a big difference if we expand $ to canada where immigrants take the majority of the population.

Winehole23
02-02-2009, 09:51 AM
Besides...anyone who says the US currency is off 30% since 2002 doesn't know the currency markets enough to have a valid opinion.I'll take the hit. I overheard it at a party.

Winehole23
02-02-2009, 10:15 AM
US = North America because Canada is simply ignorable compared to states. so it won't make a big difference if we expand $ to canada where immigrants take the majority of the population.Canada is our number one trading partner.

Blake
02-02-2009, 10:17 AM
beh. There'll be a day where we have a global currency.

Winehole23
02-02-2009, 10:30 AM
There may be reasons behind uniting a currency (more against it, imho)...but, first prove to me you know what your talking about before you propose something.Hopefully the dollar rally isn't a mirage. I'm inclined to think its a temporary safe harbor.

SF: Are you willing to entertain the idea that:
$7-8 trillion committed so far to bailing out our insolvent financial sector;
plus $3-4 trillion more;
plus trillion dollar deficits for the next few years;
plus $10 trillion of sovereign debt;
plus toxic CDS and MBS's transferred to the US balance sheet;
plus a record bubble in treasurys;
plus a food/fuel bubble that will reinflate whenever the economy gets going again;-- might, taken all together, pose a serious risk to our currency?

FreeMason
02-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Just one more stepping stone to the end game global currency.

BacktoBasics
02-02-2009, 11:04 AM
I don't like this at all. We don't need the Federal Reserve to begin with and all this is going to do is make even more money and give more control to the very entity that we desperately need to get away from.

Winehole23
02-02-2009, 11:26 AM
I doubt it will be that big of a deal, really.

For the average person that is.Even a year ago, the Amero still seemed coo coo for cocoa puffs.

Now it is starting to look like a real possibility. I guess you could say NAFTA opened that door for us: that's when we (USA/Canada/Mexico)started to think -- and act -- as a regional economic bloc.

SouthernFried
02-02-2009, 07:13 PM
Hopefully the dollar rally isn't a mirage. I'm inclined to think its a temporary safe harbor.

SF: Are you willing to entertain the idea that:
$7-8 trillion committed so far to bailing out our insolvent financial sector;
plus $3-4 trillion more;
plus trillion dollar deficits for the next few years;
plus $10 trillion of sovereign debt;
plus toxic CDS and MBS's transferred to the US balance sheet;
plus a record bubble in treasurys;
plus a food/fuel bubble that will reinflate whenever the economy gets going again;-- might, taken all together, pose a serious risk to our currency?

I agree whole heartedly. All the above pose great dangers to our currency...and our economy as a whole.

However, I don't see pegging the US dollar & Peso as any help with the above problems.

The problems you citied above have more to do with allowing our govt to create never ending debt (and even demanding more out-of-control spending as a way to solve the out-of-control spending :dizzy.)

Winehole23
02-02-2009, 07:17 PM
I agree whole heartedly. All the above pose great dangers to our currency...and our economy as a whole.

However, I don't see pegging the US dollar & Peso as any help with the above problems.

The problems you citied above have more to do with allowing our govt to create never ending debt (and even demanding more out-of-control spending as a way to solve the out-of-control spending :dizzy.)

Having a unified North American currency wouldn't rectify or even address these issues.You'll get no argument from me. I was just wondering what the default plan was.

cool hand
02-02-2009, 07:22 PM
look up the AMERO..


you dickweeds people have been talking about this shit for years.....on this board.

Viva Las Espuelas
02-02-2009, 07:35 PM
anyone that is for this new "stimulus" bill doesn't think so

SouthernFried
02-02-2009, 07:37 PM
You'll get no argument from me. I was just wondering what the default plan was.

Default plan? :p:

I've got an old Indian (er...native american) getup stored away for just such an occassion.

Actually, I really don't care. Seen this coming for over 30 yrs, hasn't been hard to figure out. Decided a long time ago there was nothing I could do about it...except make money on it.

It's amazing how relaxed about politics you can be, if your making money no matter if a currency goes up...or down. DC want's to spend itself into oblivion? Well ok then, mebbe it's time to start shorting the dollar again.

Best blood pressure medication in the world...

The Reckoning
02-02-2009, 07:59 PM
i dont care as long as my face gets to be on a bill

Cant_Be_Faded
02-02-2009, 09:14 PM
Clandestino was unique amongst mexicans of republican descent, as he also vouched vigorously for the replacement of the dollar with the Amero.

angrydude
02-02-2009, 11:05 PM
dudes, the dollar is going to get destroyed if/when the Fed starts indiscriminately buying back treasury bonds like they announced they were going to and if/when a big stimulus package gets passed at the same time.

brettn
02-03-2009, 02:35 AM
dudes, the dollar is going to get destroyed if/when the Fed starts indiscriminately buying back treasury bonds like they announced they were going to and if/when a big stimulus package gets passed at the same time.

ding ding

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 03:18 AM
dudes, the dollar is going to get destroyed if/when the Fed starts indiscriminately buying back treasury bonds like they announced they were going to ...How exotic. Can you explain?

DarkReign
02-03-2009, 10:28 AM
How exotic. Can you explain?

It was a BradLohaus thread awhile back....see if I can find it.

RandomGuy
02-03-2009, 10:52 AM
Just one more stepping stone to the end game global currency.

It wouldn't call it so much of a "game" as an inevitability. Not in my lifetime, but it will happen eventually.

It would make things waaaay more economically efficient and transparent.

RandomGuy
02-03-2009, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by angrydude

dudes, the dollar is going to get destroyed if/when the Fed starts indiscriminately buying back treasury bonds like they announced they were going to ...



How exotic. Can you explain?

Probably not.

RandomGuy
02-03-2009, 11:03 AM
Even a year ago, the Amero still seemed coo coo for cocoa puffs.

Now it is starting to look like a real possibility. I guess you could say NAFTA opened that door for us: that's when we (USA/Canada/Mexico)started to think -- and act -- as a regional economic bloc.

It has always been a possibility, but still remains little more than a vaguely formed idea, claims from conspiracy nuts like Hal Turner notwithstanding.

There is no political will for this at all, and it will not happen, barring a near total catastrophe that would make our present problems pale in comparison.

Some thing this catastrophe is in the offing, and a few think it is being actively orchestrated as we speak, by "them" (cue dramatic music here, DUN DUN DUN)

It will be resisted by both ends of the political spectrum, and definitely by the evangelicals that run the GOP. It smacks of the stuff talked about in the book of revelations (anti-christ, etc), and a good chunk of the evangelical leadership is always on the alert for stuff like that, don't doubt that for a second.

I think there will continue to be regional economic blocs, and that trend will likely continue, but anyone who thinks that such a radical acceleration of a very very very slow process is in the cards is betting on a rather narrow range of potential outcomes that is fairly improbable.

Possible, certainly, but as the guy mentions, just barely.

DarkReign
02-03-2009, 11:16 AM
How exotic. Can you explain?


It was a BradLohaus thread awhile back....see if I can find it.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108119

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 12:17 PM
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108119Thanks for the link.

By Sept. 18-19 it was clear the whole goddam financial system was bankrupt. Now we're just arguing about how to remain in denial.

Currency collapse would appear to be a dark cloud on the horizon. Not upon us yet, but just visible.

I think we should put banks in default. Declare the goddam defaults, take over the banks. Promise to cover the deposits. Pull them apart, put together moneymakers and denationalize them later. That's what Stiglitz (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4424418/Let-banks-fail-says-Nobel-economist-Joseph-Stiglitz.html) is telling England to do. Is that so childish?

Stiglitz inveighs against the "bad bank" idea:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a.GJvNfWtCX0&refer=home

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 12:26 PM
It has always been a possibility, but still remains little more than a vaguely formed idea, claims from conspiracy nuts like Hal Turner notwithstanding.Maybe not so vaguely formed, anymore.


There is no political will for this at all, and it will not happen, barring a near total catastrophe that would make our present problems pale in comparison.I'm not ready to put on the sandwich board yet, but we do live in interesting times, wouldn't you say?



I think there will continue to be regional economic blocs, and that trend will likely continue, but anyone who thinks that such a radical acceleration of a very very very slow process is in the cards is betting on a rather narrow range of potential outcomes that is fairly improbable.Like national default? Our megabanks are insolvent. That's our starting point. Where does the graph go from there?

Also,

"It is probable that many things should happen contrary to probability." --Aristotle, Poetics

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 01:47 PM
It wouldn't call it so much of a "game" as an inevitability. Not in my lifetime, but it will happen eventually.

It would make things waaaay more economically efficient and transparent.Global economic steering?

RandomGuy
02-03-2009, 03:40 PM
"It is probable that many things should happen contrary to probability." --Aristotle, Poetics


Oddly enough time this is echoed in our understanding of quantum physics.

Given enough time, the probability of ANYTHING happening reaches 1.

It is possible that you could be walking down the street, then could suddenly vanish, appear on mars for a split second, and then reappear on the other side of the street.

Douglas Adams, in his wonderful Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, which I would recommend to ANYBODY with a sense of humor/fun, said that the fastest ship in the universe was powered by an ultimate improbability drive that made things that were really really improbable happen, such as faster than light travel.

But that is off topic. I think we were flinging poo at each other about something political or other.

RandomGuy
02-03-2009, 03:41 PM
Global economic steering?

Not necessarily, but not having to deal with currency fluctuations would introduce a certain amount of transparency to international transactions.

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Not necessarily, but not having to deal with currency fluctuations would introduce a certain amount of transparency to international transactions.But you lose the feedback about local conditions that a variety of currencies will give you. Don't you?

Wild Cobra
02-03-2009, 07:42 PM
its gonna happen. Its just a matter of time.
Maybe... Probably, but how far into the future. For that matter, it's logical to think that someday we will have a world government. As for a North American currency... I doubt it in my lifetime.

BradLohaus
02-03-2009, 08:23 PM
I don't think it's a conspiracy. The Euro wasn't a conspiracy; people had been writing about it for decades by the time it was introduced. Still, I'm sure that at one time there were people in France, Germany, Italy, and so on who said to people, "hey, I read an article the other day about a single European currency in the future."

"It will never happen."

"Conspiracy theory."

"Politically Impossible."

Just sayin'. The reason I posted this article was because the guy's reasons for the possibility are similar to what I've been saying about the subject.

And I still say that people won't care that much. Is anybody taking out any bankers these days? Nope. People's civil rights are violated all the time, but nobody really cares THAT much. As long as the standard of living of the middle class stays at least close to what it is, most people won't care what their money looks like, or who creates it... just like today.

And as far as people screaming about Revelations, the Anti-Christ and one world government: of course that will happen. It goes on today with the United Nations and other things. It will have about as much success in stopping an NA currency has it has had in getting the US out of the UN.

:lol I had to look up Hal Turner. I thought RG was talking about that guy at World Net Daily who always thinks the world is about to end (Hal Lindsay).

BradLohaus
02-03-2009, 08:38 PM
But you lose the feedback about local conditions that a variety of currencies will give you. Don't you?

That's the problem with the Euro. People I've known from Europe have all had two things in common:

1.) None of them like the EU itself. Their feelings range from indifference to hatred.

2.) They all love the convenience of the Euro, because Europeans travel all over the continent. They don't like that they've lost national control of monetary policy, but not nearly as much as they like the convenience factor.

That last part could really change if economic conditions ever got really bad.

As far as North America goes, the convenience of travel part doesn't factor in nearly as much as in Europe. But I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to control the problems of unified monetary system in North America than it is in Europe.

The funny thing is, I actually think that an NA currency would benefit all 3 nations quite a bit, given the likely economic conditions in the future. I'm only against it because of the sovereignty issues. But that's kind of a joke because we don't exactly have sovereign control over our money today, do we?

Winehole23
02-03-2009, 10:41 PM
But that's kind of a joke because we don't exactly have sovereign control over our money today, do we?Not exactly.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3bGnkNeoPxk/SYEBtdpkM3I/AAAAAAAACWk/lgQO6nOmkWk/s400/BASE_Max_630_378.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3bGnkNeoPxk/SYEBtdpkM3I/AAAAAAAACWk/lgQO6nOmkWk/s1600-h/BASE_Max_630_378.png)