E-mail from my 3rd grader's teacher

[I Love Me Some Me]

"I wanted to let you know that I had to talk with your child today because of how she has been treating other students. Today, a girl bent over and part of her underwear showed and your daughter proceeded to tell others about it until the girl was in tears. At the beginning of the year she had to go to the counselor because she started a club for girls who disliked a particular classmate. I asked your child why she feels like she is bettee than the other students and she didn't have an answer. I have talked with the girls in my class at length about how thet treat each other, but your daughter still seems to think she should get her way. I think she is losing friends and cannot treat others that way. Please discuss this with her because there are a lot of feelings getting hurt at school."


How would you respond?

[JoeChalupa]

I'd request a teacher conference and have a nice long talk with my daughter who should know that that kind of behavior, if true, is totally unacceptable.

[TwAnKiEs]

STFU and teach.

[JoeChalupa]

STFU and teach.

That is easy when you don't have to baby-sit as well as teach.

[ididnotnothat]

I wonder what B2B would do? Glad I don't have kids.

[desflood]

That's tough. Lots of parents have complaints about bullies, but what do you do when your kid is the mean one?

Is your girl a smart kid? If she is and the teacher is right about her losing friends, it won't take her long to figure out the equation: being mean = nobody likes you. Hopefully this will be a self-solving problem for you.

Good luck.

[TwAnKiEs]

That is easy when you don't have to baby-sit as well as teach.

lol i know.. izz wazz ay yoke


TBH, I don't think I would know how to respond... I still hhave 2- 2 1\2 years to go :wow

[mrsmaalox]

"I wanted to let you know that I had to talk with your child today because of how she has been treating other students. Today, a girl bent over and part of her underwear showed and your daughter proceeded to tell others about it until the girl was in tears. At the beginning of the year she had to go to the counselor because she started a club for girls who disliked a particular classmate. I asked your child why she feels like she is bettee than the other students and she didn't have an answer. I have talked with the girls in my class at length about how thet treat each other, but your daughter still seems to think she should get her way. I think she is losing friends and cannot treat others that way. Please discuss this with her because there are a lot of feelings getting hurt at school."


How would you respond?

I would respond, "Thank you for informing me. I will discuss this with my daughter and will arrange for a meeting with you, the school counselor, and school administrator". And then I would have the meeting, inform them what steps you have taken with your daughter, ask for recommendations, ask for the documentation of all the incidents, and ask why the fuck you weren't notified of this behavior "at the beginning of the year"!

[BacktoBasics]

Dear Teacher,

Thanks for letting me know whats going on. I raise my children to not just think that they are better than everyone else but to know that they are better than everyone else. We live in a day and age where the biggest losers get the biggest hand outs so if you're not feeding off the bottom you better make damn sure you're plugging away with full force to stay on top. Society has dictated that if you don't keep your peers down they'll likely cut you off at the knees to better their position in life. Nothing is righteous or sacred anymore, nothing if fair or equal especially for the very ones who work the hardest. I expect my kids to never give an inch for anyone because all that will lead to is inch after inch being demanded until you're stripped of all your integrity and net worth. I'll let my kid know that people don't get promoted in the work force when their underwear is hanging out all over the place and as a matter of fact not only do you not get the promotion you might even get slapped with a senseless "sexual harassment" lawsuit. Good to know my kids been pounding the pavement to stay a step ahead.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

________________________

[JoeChalupa]

lol i know.. izz wazz ay yoke


TBH, I don't think I would know how to respond... I still hhave 2- 2 1\2 years to go :wow

:tu My youngest, who has gone through some teasing of her own, wants to be a teacher because she thinks so highly of her current teacher. I haven't to deal with any of mine being the bully and that may be because I've had long talks with them about teasing others. It ALL starts at home. But I've ranted about this before in other threads.

[JudynTX]

Does your child's name begin with M by any chance? :D

[BacktoBasics]

Lets not forget that the kid took the initiative to start a club too. Organized a group of youngsters with the attention span of gnats to "rally round the family". This kid has upper level management written all over her.

[desflood]

and ask why the fuck you weren't notified of this behavior "at the beginning of the year"!
Excellent point. Aren't teachers and other school officials always complaining that parents are not involved enough in their kids' educational lives?

[desflood]

Dear Teacher,

Thanks for letting me know whats going on. I raise my children to not just think that they are better than everyone else but to know that they are better than everyone else. We live in a day and age where the biggest losers get the biggest hand outs so if you're not feeding off the bottom you better make damn sure you're plugging away with full force to stay on top. Society has dictated that if you don't keep your peers down they'll likely cut you off at the knees to better their position in life. Nothing is righteous or sacred anymore, nothing if fair or equal especially for the very ones who work the hardest. I expect my kids to never give an inch for anyone because all that will lead to is inch after inch being demanded until you're stripped of all your integrity and net worth. I'll let my kid know that people don't get promoted in the work force when their underwear is hanging out all over the place and as a matter of fact not only do you not get the promotion you might even get slapped with a senseless "sexual harassment" lawsuit. Good to know my kids been pounding the pavement to stay a step ahead.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

________________________
Nice :lol

[JoeChalupa]

Dear Teacher,

Thanks for letting me know whats going on. I raise my children to not just think that they are better than everyone else but to know that they are better than everyone else. We live in a day and age where the biggest losers get the biggest hand outs so if you're not feeding off the bottom you better make damn sure you're plugging away with full force to stay on top. Society has dictated that if you don't keep your peers down they'll likely cut you off at the knees to better their position in life. Nothing is righteous or sacred anymore, nothing if fair or equal especially for the very ones who work the hardest. I expect my kids to never give an inch for anyone because all that will lead to is inch after inch being demanded until you're stripped of all your integrity and net worth. I'll let my kid know that people don't get promoted in the work force when their underwear is hanging out all over the place and as a matter of fact not only do you not get the promotion you might even get slapped with a senseless "sexual harassment" lawsuit. Good to know my kids been pounding the pavement to stay a step ahead.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

________________________

:lmao That is what I expected and I would never go that route.

I teach my kids that nobody is better than they are but that they too must show respect to others. I tell them it is a very tough world out there but you don't have to be cruel towards others to be successful. Yes it is a dog eat dog world but one can rise above it all.
Parenting is one tough job.

[mrsmaalox]

Lets not forget that the kid took the initiative to start a club too. Organized a group of youngsters with the attention span of gnats to "rally round the family". This kid has upper level management written all over her.

And demand she be promoted to "Gifted and Talented" status!! :lol

[Bartleby]

Lets not forget that the kid took the initiative to start a club too. Organized a group of youngsters with the attention span of gnats to "rally round the family". This kid has upper level management written all over her.

I see a future cult leader.

[BacktoBasics]

Excellent point. Aren't teachers and other school officials always complaining that parents are not involved enough in their kids' educational lives?With 20+ kids per class I don't see how a teacher can educate and police the herd effectively for the course of an entire year. Perhaps she felt like the child was going through a small phase or spell of misbehavior. Usually when kids act like shit they see the repercussions of deviating from the norm and the problem corrects itself. Especially young women. They act out irrationally as frequently as their adult counterparts and just when you think they've gone off the deep end they come back to reality only to allow history to repeat itself when the next "big catastrophe" happens.

[peewee's lovechild]

Dear Teacher,

Thanks for letting me know whats going on. I raise my children to not just think that they are better than everyone else but to know that they are better than everyone else. We live in a day and age where the biggest losers get the biggest hand outs so if you're not feeding off the bottom you better make damn sure you're plugging away with full force to stay on top. Society has dictated that if you don't keep your peers down they'll likely cut you off at the knees to better their position in life. Nothing is righteous or sacred anymore, nothing if fair or equal especially for the very ones who work the hardest. I expect my kids to never give an inch for anyone because all that will lead to is inch after inch being demanded until you're stripped of all your integrity and net worth. I'll let my kid know that people don't get promoted in the work force when their underwear is hanging out all over the place and as a matter of fact not only do you not get the promotion you might even get slapped with a senseless "sexual harassment" lawsuit. Good to know my kids been pounding the pavement to stay a step ahead.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

________________________


Lets not forget that the kid took the initiative to start a club too. Organized a group of youngsters with the attention span of gnats to "rally round the family". This kid has upper level management written all over her.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[BacktoBasics]

And demand she be promoted to "Gifted and Talented" status!! :lol
She might not be challenged enough.

[mrsmaalox]

With 20+ kids per class I don't see how a teacher can educate and police the herd effectively for the course of an entire year. Perhaps she felt like the child was going through a small phase or spell of misbehavior. Usually when kids act like shit they see the repercussions of deviating from the norm and the problem corrects itself. Especially young women. They act out irrationally as frequently as their adult counterparts and just when you think they've gone off the deep end they come back to reality only to allow history to repeat itself when the next "big catastrophe" happens.

But the teacher turfed the problem to the counselor. It's the counselors job to deal with this type of bs, so she must have had to write some kind of incidental behavior report, and I would think that would require parental notification.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I would respond, "Thank you for informing me. I will discuss this with my daughter and will arrange for a meeting with you, the school counselor, and school administrator". And then I would have the meeting, inform them what steps you have taken with your daughter, ask for recommendations, ask for the documentation of all the incidents, and ask why the fuck you weren't notified of this behavior "at the beginning of the year"!
Exactly....here's what my response was. I was irritated by a couple of things the teacher said:

"I apologize for her behavior, and this is something we will address with her immediately. She is certainly not awarded any sense of entitlement at home, so I'm not sure she feels that way at school. She hasn't had even remote behavioral problems in previous grade levels. Even this year, every report card and note home has not indicated this attitude and behavioral problem. If, as you say, this has been going on all year it would have been helpful to hear from you prior to this incident. Especially if you have had lengthy discussions with her and she's met with a counselor. Her mother and I MUST be made aware of these situations as they happen...not months later. I'm dissapointed that this is how I found out.

Also....I am not convinced that my daughter "feels like she is better than other students." That is a strong statement that I'd like for you to qualify.

I am not one of these parents who thinks their child can do no wrong, so please don't interpret this response that way. These problems will be addressed, and she will have to accept full responsibility for her behavior and the associated consequences. However, I don't just want to disclipline her for what she's done...I'd like to understand why she's acting out in this manner It's really contrary to what we know of her at home."

[desflood]

But the teacher turfed the problem to the counselor. It's the counselors job to deal with this type of bs, so she must have had to write some kind of incidental behavior report, and I would think that would require parental notification.
I would also, but apparently you and I expect too much of the public school system :lol Last year when my kid was bullied, I had to notify the school, even though they were first aware of the problem.

[Richard Cranium]

Parents need to learn how to be parents and stop being friends to their kids. Sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

[Blake]

With 20+ kids per class I don't see how a teacher can educate and police the herd effectively for the course of an entire year. Perhaps she felt like the child was going through a small phase or spell of misbehavior.....

my wife spends about 75% of her time dealing with discipline and she's in a hard ass school. If only the parents of these kids had email that she could rattle off a quick email to say 'hey, can you help me out by talking to your kid'. A lot of them don't even have a working phone.

I'm guessing the average public school teacher has to deal with it at least 50% of the time, so I'd say don't take it personal, just respond with a simple
"thanks for the heads up, I will definitely talk to her. Please keep me informed about her behavior and let me know if there is anything more I can do."

[Richard Cranium]

And there is bullying in private schools too, hell even in home schooling.

[I Love Me Some Me]

:lmao That is what I expected and I would never go that route.

I teach my kids that nobody is better than they are but that they too must show respect to others. I tell them it is a very tough world out there but you don't have to be cruel towards others to be successful. Yes it is a dog eat dog world but one can rise above it all.
Parenting is one tough job.
Yeah...i was really discouraged by her meanness. I won't tolerate that. It's that fucking Hannah Montana, and her always being the center of attention.

TV privileges have been suspended indefinitely.

[Blake]

Parents need to learn how to be parents and stop being friends to their kids. Sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

+1 gatrilliion

[JoeChalupa]

It is natural for a parent to become defensive when it comes to their child. But most parents are well aware of their child's behavior so it shouldn't come as a total shock.

[lebomb]

Dear Teacher,

Thanks for letting me know whats going on. I raise my children to not just think that they are better than everyone else but to know that they are better than everyone else. We live in a day and age where the biggest losers get the biggest hand outs so if you're not feeding off the bottom you better make damn sure you're plugging away with full force to stay on top. Society has dictated that if you don't keep your peers down they'll likely cut you off at the knees to better their position in life. Nothing is righteous or sacred anymore, nothing if fair or equal especially for the very ones who work the hardest. I expect my kids to never give an inch for anyone because all that will lead to is inch after inch being demanded until you're stripped of all your integrity and net worth. I'll let my kid know that people don't get promoted in the work force when their underwear is hanging out all over the place and as a matter of fact not only do you not get the promotion you might even get slapped with a senseless "sexual harassment" lawsuit. Good to know my kids been pounding the pavement to stay a step ahead.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

________________________


Dear Parent,

Dont be alarmed when another kid that has gotten tired of your daughters snootiness and thinking she is superior commences to give her a ghetto ass whoopin. You have been forewarned.

Best Regards,
Teacher

[Blake]

Yeah...i was really discouraged by her meanness. I won't tolerate that. It's that fucking Hannah Montana, and her always being the center of attention.

TV privileges have been suspended indefinitely.

I want to throw HM in front of a bus and then back the bus back up over her washed up piggybacking dad.

[Blake]

And there is bullying in private schools too, hell even in home schooling.

I know you are serious, but I still laughed out loud.

[JoeChalupa]

Yeah...i was really discouraged by her meanness. I won't tolerate that. It's that fucking Hannah Montana, and her always being the center of attention.

TV privileges have been suspended indefinitely.

HM will be a has been soon enough. Selena Gomez is my youngest new fav....and those damn Jonas Brothers.

[peewee's lovechild]

And demand she be promoted to "Gifted and Talented" status!! :lol

GT does nothing for students. Don't let anyone sell you on that one.

If you really want your child to excell and be prepared for college, AP is the way to go.

[Blake]

Exactly....here's what my response was. I was irritated by a couple of things the teacher said:

"I apologize for her behavior, and this is something we will address with her immediately. She is certainly not awarded any sense of entitlement at home, so I'm not sure she feels that way at school. She hasn't had even remote behavioral problems in previous grade levels. Even this year, every report card and note home has not indicated this attitude and behavioral problem. If, as you say, this has been going on all year it would have been helpful to hear from you prior to this incident. Especially if you have had lengthy discussions with her and she's met with a counselor. Her mother and I MUST be made aware of these situations as they happen...not months later. I'm dissapointed that this is how I found out.

Also....I am not convinced that my daughter "feels like she is better than other students." That is a strong statement that I'd like for you to qualify.

I am not one of these parents who thinks their child can do no wrong, so please don't interpret this response that way. These problems will be addressed, and she will have to accept full responsibility for her behavior and the associated consequences. However, I don't just want to disclipline her for what she's done...I'd like to understand why she's acting out in this manner It's really contrary to what we know of her at home."

yeah, come to think of it, if my 8 year old daughter was previously sent to a counselor's office for bad behavior and I wasn't notified about it, I think I would be pissed too.

Good response.

[Bartleby]

I think the teacher handled it pretty well for the most part. Who knows how many small fires she has to put out on a regular basis. That said, I disagree with her assertion that the girl felt she is better than the other students. It doesn't make sense to ask the girl why she feels that way because I strongly doubt that's how she actually feels. Judging by the behavior the teacher has reported, I imagine she was acting on feelings of insecurity.

[Blake]

....and those damn Jonas Brothers.

luckily my 5 year old doesn't really like those no talent ass clowns........which even if she did, there is no way Id be taking her to see that money guzzling 3-d concert they are trying to shove down the kids throats.

[peewee's lovechild]

With 20+ kids per class I don't see how a teacher can educate and police the herd effectively for the course of an entire year.

Dude, I taught 30+ kids per class. It's impossible to do any real teaching. The public school system is just a glorified babysitting venture.

[peewee's lovechild]

But the teacher turfed the problem to the counselor. It's the counselors job to deal with this type of bs, so she must have had to write some kind of incidental behavior report, and I would think that would require parental notification.

Not necessarily.

This is why it sucks to be a teacher. If they deem it to be a problem that the teacher should resolve, they send the kids right back. The same thing applies to sending students to the principal.

I had this one instance where two kids were going to get into a fight and I sent them to the principal's office. The security gaurds escorted them. And, they were sent right back to my classroom with a note from the principal that said, "Control your students."

[I Love Me Some Me]

I think the teacher handled it pretty well for the most part. Who knows how many small fires she has to put out on a regular basis. That said, I disagree with her assertion that the girl felt she is better than the other students. It doesn't make sense to ask the girl why she feels that way because I strongly doubt that's how she actually feels. Judging by the behavior the teacher has reported, I imagine she was acting on feelings of insecurity.
Not knowing about the small fires is okay. But when the flames are big enough to call the fire department (the counselor), I absolutely have to know.

Yeah...there could be some insecurity issues going on. We talked about it. I think she'll be okay and was just acting out on some other things that have been going on.

[peewee's lovechild]

Dear Parent,

Dont be alarmed when another kid that has gotten tired of your daughters snootiness and thinking she is superior commences to give her a ghetto ass whoopin. You have been forewarned.

Best Regards,
Teacher



Dear Dumbass,

You obviously don't get it.

Best Regards,

The Whole World

[peewee's lovechild]

I want to throw HM in front of a bus and then back the bus back up over her washed up piggybacking dad.

Just wait until her home made sex video comes out. She'll be nothing after that.

[Richard Cranium]

The whole knock on the public school system is crock in itself. There are thousands of kids who get into great colleges and careers through the public school system and many parents won't take the responsibility and blame the system. TEACH your kids how to behave in school so the teachers can do their jobs.

[Richard Cranium]

Dear Dumbass,

You obviously don't get it.

Best Regards,

The Whole World

Dear Dumbass,

The whole world doesn't think that way.

Best Regards,

The Real World.

[JudynTX]

luckily my 5 year old doesn't really like those no talent ass clowns........which even if she did, there is no way Id be taking her to see that money guzzling 3-d concert they are trying to shove down the kids throats.

Blake, has your wife had to send out a nasty gram yet?

[Blake]

The security gaurds escorted them. And, they were sent right back to my classroom with a note from the principal that said, "Control your students."

that absolutely sucks.

[JoeChalupa]

I love the fact that I have an e-mail address for every one of my kids teachers and I use it quite often.

[mrsmaalox]

my wife spends about 75% of her time dealing with discipline and she's in a hard ass school. If only the parents of these kids had email that she could rattle off a quick email to say 'hey, can you help me out by talking to your kid'. A lot of them don't even have a working phone.

I'm guessing the average public school teacher has to deal with it at least 50% of the time, so I'd say don't take it personal, just respond with a simple
"thanks for the heads up, I will definitely talk to her. Please keep me informed about her behavior and let me know if there is anything more I can do."

I'm totally sympathetic with what teachers have to deal with (and my kids know damn well that the teacher has my support). And I can see where the classroom becomes like a family, and a lot of times behavior issues can be resloved on the spot only to resurface later. Hell, at home I don't take formal action for every infraction. But this case was bumped to the next level, and it is their lack of communication that concerns me.

And as far as taking it personally, my kids are well aware that I take anything they do away from me as a direct reflection of me personally, so they will have to answer to me when it gets back to me. And I am much worse to deal with than any teacher or school counselor! :lol

[JoeChalupa]

luckily my 5 year old doesn't really like those no talent ass clowns........which even if she did, there is no way Id be taking her to see that money guzzling 3-d concert they are trying to shove down the kids throats.

I hear ya, I already told her that there is NO WAY I am going to dish out that kind of cash for a concert.

[Blake]

Just wait until her home made sex video comes out. She'll be nothing after that.

either that or she will hit even bigger celebrity status, get her own multimillion dollar reality show and be the estee lauder cover girl

[lebomb]

Dear Dumbass,

You obviously don't get it.

Best Regards,

The Whole World


But we do!

Love,
White Folk

[desflood]

The whole knock on the public school system is crock in itself. There are thousands of kids who get into great colleges and careers through the public school system and many parents won't take the responsibility and blame the system. TEACH your kids how to behave in school so the teachers can do their jobs.
Those kids get into great things despite the public school system, not because of it.

[Blake]

But this case was bumped to the next level, and it is their lack of communication that concerns me.



agreed

[mrsmaalox]

GT does nothing for students. Don't let anyone sell you on that one.

If you really want your child to excell and be prepared for college, AP is the way to go.

Yes I know, I was just being facetious :D

[Blake]

Blake, has your wife had to send out a nasty gram yet?

what's a nasty gram?

[peewee's lovechild]

The whole knock on the public school system is crock in itself. There are thousands of kids who get into great colleges and careers through the public school system and many parents won't take the responsibility and blame the system. TEACH your kids how to behave in school so the teachers can do their jobs.

If you've never worked as a teacher, then you don't know a damn thing about it.

Teachers are powerless to do anything. They have to tiptoe around everything. Most of a teacher's time is spent on discipline, not teaching.

Yes, there are thousands of kids who go to college and what not, but there are also school districts that don't have the burden of dealing with poverty and the apathy of the majority of communities.

Yes, thousands of students graduate and go to college, but the freshman drop out rates in universities is very high. They are completely unprepared for college because the public education system has not done a thing to prepare them for college, if the student was not put on an AP plan that is.

Why do you think community colleges (like SAC, Northwest Vista, Palo Alto, etc.) are making a killing? These kids can't make it to a university because they lack the basic skills to be a college student.

This is the fault of THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

You can't blame anyone esle for this.

[peewee's lovechild]

Dear Dumbass,

The whole world doesn't think that way.

Best Regards,

The Real World.


Dear Dumbass,

You obviously don't get it.

Best Regards,

The Whole World

It appears that you need the same letter sent to you.

[JudynTX]

what's a nasty gram?

These kind of emails. :lol

[lebomb]

If you've never worked as a teacher, then you don't know a damn thing about it.

Teachers are powerless to do anything. They have to tiptoe around everything. Most of a teacher's time is spent on discipline, not teaching.

Yes, there are thousands of kids who go to college and what not, but there are also school districts that don't have the burden of dealing with poverty and the apathy of the majority of communities.

Yes, thousands of students graduate and go to college, but the freshman drop out rates in universities is very high. They are completely unprepared for college because the public education system has not done a thing to prepare them for college, if the studen was not put on an AP plan that is.

Why do you think community colleges (like SAC, Northwest Vista, Palo Alto, etc.) are making a killing? These kids can't make it to a university because they lack the basic skills to be a college student.

This is the fault of THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

You can't blame anyone esle for this.


You have to blame parents as well. If my kids act up in school, they pay..........trust me. Some parents dont give two shits. So its not only the education system.

[peewee's lovechild]

You have to blame parents as well. If my kids act up in school, they pay..........trust me. Some parents dont give two shits. So its not only the education system.

Parents are definitely a factor in all this.

But, the school system's refusal to enforce discipline as it had been in the past is the main culprit. If kids fight, they get sent to a special school where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. It really is a blessing to go there.

If kids act up in class, the worst case scenario is to be sent to ISS (In School Suspension) where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. We had kids who would act up like motherfuckers just to be sent there. Once they got to ISS, they would act like angels.

There is no accountability.

I could give you example after example on how the public education system has failed children, but I just don't have the time to list them all.

[mrsmaalox]

I had this one instance where two kids were going to get into a fight and I sent them to the principal's office. The security gaurds escorted them. And, they were sent right back to my classroom with a note from the principal that said, "Control your students."

:bang

[Blake]

These kind of emails. :lol

my wife has maybe 20 parents out of 160+ kids that have legit email addresses.

She spends about 4-5 hours a week making phone calls to these parents regarding grades and classroom behavior.

She has had several kids removed from her class because of their behavior. Several more from her class have been sent to alternative school because of their behavior in other classes which she was relieved that she didn't have to be the one to send them.

Any time they are sent to the prinicipal's office from her class for anything at all, she has to document it. Enough documentation, and she can get the trouble kid kicked out. A lot a lot a lot of paperwork.

[JoeChalupa]

Those kids get into great things despite the public school system, not because of it.

You get out of it what you put into it. There are many, many way to enhance the public school system but not all parents but forth the effort.

[Bigzax]

what the hell are vice principals for if they can't help with the discipline issues...

[JoeChalupa]

Parents are definitely a factor in all this.

But, the school system's refusal to enforce discipline as it had been in the past is the main culprit. If kids fight, they get sent to a special school where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. It really is a blessing to go there.

If kids act up in class, the worst case scenario is to be sent to ISS (In School Suspension) where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. We had kids who would act up like motherfuckers just to be sent there. Once they got to ISS, they would act like angels.

There is no accountability.

I could give you example after example on how the public education system has failed children, but I just don't have the time to list them all.

The reason some teachers don't want to discipline is because the parents will sue if they do. I can also show you examples of how PARENTS fail their children with no accountability.

[JoeChalupa]

If you've never worked as a teacher, then you don't know a damn thing about it.

Teachers are powerless to do anything. They have to tiptoe around everything. Most of a teacher's time is spent on discipline, not teaching.

Yes, there are thousands of kids who go to college and what not, but there are also school districts that don't have the burden of dealing with poverty and the apathy of the majority of communities.

Yes, thousands of students graduate and go to college, but the freshman drop out rates in universities is very high. They are completely unprepared for college because the public education system has not done a thing to prepare them for college, if the student was not put on an AP plan that is.

Why do you think community colleges (like SAC, Northwest Vista, Palo Alto, etc.) are making a killing? These kids can't make it to a university because they lack the basic skills to be a college student.

This is the fault of THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

You can't blame anyone esle for this.

I agree to some point but it is NOT all the fault of the school system. And no I've never been a teacher but that doesn't mean I don't know squat about it.

[Bigzax]

bring back the hitstick!!!

[JoeChalupa]

I also know quite a few very successful people who went up through the community college system.

[101A]

What should you do?

Provide this LINK (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116018)

[Blake]

Parents are definitely a factor in all this.

But, the school system's refusal to enforce discipline as it had been in the past is the main culprit. If kids fight, they get sent to a special school where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. It really is a blessing to go there.

If kids act up in class, the worst case scenario is to be sent to ISS (In School Suspension) where all they do is sleep, eat, and work on class modules. We had kids who would act up like motherfuckers just to be sent there. Once they got to ISS, they would act like angels.

There is no accountability.

I could give you example after example on how the public education system has failed children, but I just don't have the time to list them all.


honestly, I blame society and parents far above putting blame on the public school system.

The public schools offer AP classes, so it's not as if they are forcing all kids to take basic 1+1=2 type of classes.

My wife teaches Spanish I in high school. She has the wide range of A's, B's, C's and F's as you might expect and on the surface, you'd think that sounds about right.....

until you realize that the stuff she gives them that a monkey could almost get an A. She and the other Spanish I teachers basically set it up to where you do your homework, you get an A....

but these lazy sumb!tches just sit there and don't want to do a damn thing. Due to budget restrictions, the books have to stay in the classroom and are shared by all of them throughout the day........which means she goes even easier on them......

some of the assignments are coloring assignments. some of them are just "repeat after me for an oral grade=easy 100"....she allows open book tests and spoon feeds them question/answer sessions before the test

but these fokin lazy ass kids don't want to lift a finger and actually try their damndest to get that F.

what's even sicker is that my wife can look up these kids grades in their other classes and their grades are almost identical across the board +/- 10 points................which means that science, math, and english teachers are basically doing the same spoonfeeding........just trying to get these kids to do SOMETHING.

The lazy ass attitude starts and ends at home.

/end rant

[desflood]

bring back the hitstick!!!
:lol

+1

[JudynTX]

:toast To the youth of tomorrow!

XmzCdfpoyIY

:lol

[JoeChalupa]

honestly, I blame society and parents far above putting blame on the public school system.

The public schools offer AP classes, so it's not as if they are forcing all kids to take basic 1+1=2 type of classes.

My wife teaches Spanish I in high school. She has the wide range of A's, B's, C's and F's as you might expect and on the surface, you'd think that sounds about right.....

until you realize that the stuff she gives them that a monkey could almost get an A. She and the other Spanish I teachers basically set it up to where you do your homework, you get an A....

but these lazy sumb!tches just sit there and don't want to do a damn thing. Due to budget restrictions, the books have to stay in the classroom and are shared by all of them throughout the day........which means she goes even easier on them......

some of the assignments are coloring assignments. some of them are just "repeat after me for an oral grade=easy 100"....she allows open book tests and spoon feeds them question/answer sessions before the test

but these fokin lazy ass kids don't want to lift a finger and actually try their damndest to get that F.

what's even sicker is that my wife can look up these kids grades in their other classes and their grades are almost identical across the board +/- 10 points................which means that science, math, and english teachers are basically doing the same spoonfeeding........just trying to get these kids to do SOMETHING.

The lazy ass attitude starts and ends at home.

/end rant

I concur.

[desflood]

honestly, I blame society and parents far above putting blame on the public school system.
But most of those parents are also products of the public school system. And several generations before them. Something to think about.

[peewee's lovechild]

The reason some teachers don't want to discipline is because the parents will sue if they do. I can also show you examples of how PARENTS fail their children with no accountability.

They sue because advoactes tell them to do so. Advocates are fucking leeches in the school system.

I have already said parents should shoulder the blame. But, the way the school system is set up, teachers are powerless to do anything.

You really have to be a teacher to understand all this.

And, Blake is right. In order for you to get rid of a student who is just a flat out cancer, you have to have piles upon piles of documentation.

That's only if the kid is not Special Ed. There's a whole other issue with those kids, starting with the fact that most kids classified as Special Ed have absolutely nothing wrong with them at all.

But, the public school system has created loopholes for them to get away with every god damn thing they want to get away with. They have these bullshit things called BIPs (Behavioral Intervention Plans) that make it imfuckingpossible for teachers to do anything about thier behaviors.

I had a student with a BIP that had 24 interventions before I could refer him to the principal or counselor!!! 24 mother fucking interventions!!!

You have no idea what it's like to teach in the public sector and you have no idea how public education is failing our children.

[peewee's lovechild]

what the hell are vice principals for if they can't help with the discipline issues...

They are worthless.

[peewee's lovechild]

I also know quite a few very successful people who went up through the community college system.

Ask yourself why they had to start there.

[peewee's lovechild]

bring back the hitstick!!!

No kidding, corporal punishment is the way to go.

[JoeChalupa]

Ask yourself why they had to start there.

Could be many factors. But more important is where they ended which is with a degree from a 4 yr institution.

[peewee's lovechild]

Could be many factors. But more important is where they ended which is with a degree from a 4 yr institution.

You're pointing out a couple of examples of success. Statistics don't back you up.

It's great that those people you know made it all the way through. But, they didn't have to start at a CC. Public School should've given them a solid education that allowed them to attend a 4 year U.

[ploto]

I would be grateful your child has a teacher who cares about her and the kind of person she is.

Most people who have a need to act superior do so out of their own insecurity.

[Blake]

But most of those parents are also products of the public school system. And several generations before them. Something to think about.

No, it's really not anything to think about.

Americans spend more per kid in public schools than any other country in the world.

We live in a time where even poorer kids grow up with not just a roof over their heads, but they have cell phones, tvs and computers all in their bedrooms. There is absolutely no incentive for many of these kids to bust ass in school.

[Blake]

Ask yourself why they had to start there.

Ending up in a CC is a different matter.

I started at SAC because I had no idea where I wanted to go. It was a great place to rack up a few trasnferable undergrad courses.

[desflood]

No, it's really not anything to think about.

Americans spend more per kid in public schools than any other country in the world.

We live in a time where even poorer kids grow up with not just a roof over their heads, but they have cell phones, tvs and computers all in their bedrooms. There is absolutely no incentive for many of these kids to bust ass in school.
It's not about money. It's about the possibility of the parents' apathy being a byproduct of being "educated" in the same public school system their children now attend.

[JoeChalupa]

You're pointing out a couple of examples of success. Statistics don't back you up.

It's great that those people you know made it all the way through. But, they didn't have to start at a CC. Public School should've given them a solid education that allowed them to attend a 4 year U.

I'm sure there are more than just a few examples of CC success stories and I'm sure your stats back your position but I deal with facts and the fact is that I know not every HS graduate is going to attend a 4 yr U but that doesn't always mean it is a failure of the system.
But that is just me.

[tp2021]

:toast To the youth of tomorrow!

XmzCdfpoyIY

:lol

"I like making gourmet breakfastses" :lol

[jcrod]

Sometimes you just have a child that is hard to deal with.

My 11 yr old girl has always been awesome. Smart, caring, everything you want in a child.

My 4 yr old boy is full of energy and sensitive to everyone feelings.

My 2 yr old girl thinks everything starts and ends with her. She hits and scratches the other kids in day care. She has always been this way since she was born. She would pinch me hard if I wasn't holding the bottle correctly. She has this stare if you get her mad. The stare happens before she starts hitting, the daycare knows the stare. We are always working with her and she's getting better, but whew she has a temper.

She is the sweetest child, she just believes she is above all.

[peewee's lovechild]

Ending up in a CC is a different matter.

I started at SAC because I had no idea where I wanted to go. It was a great place to rack up a few trasnferable undergrad courses.

You're the exception, not the rule. The truth is, the vast majority of CC students are there because they don't have the academic skills to enter a 4 year U.

Even then, counselors should have helped giving you direction on where to go before you graduated from high school.

[BacktoBasics]

Less emphasis on "4 year universities" and more emphasis on trade schools and specific goal oriented short term learning programs would go a long way.

[tp2021]

My 2 yr old girl thinks everything starts and ends with her. She hits and scratches the other kids in day care. She has always been this way since she was born. She would pinch me hard if I wasn't holding the bottle correctly. She has this stare if you get her mad. The stare happens before she starts hitting, the daycare knows the stare. We are always working with her and she's getting better, but whew she has a temper.

She is the sweetest child, she just believes she is above all.
Something seems a little fishy there...

:lol

[Blake]

It's not about money. It's about the possibility of the parents' apathy being a byproduct of being "educated" in the same public school system their children now attend.

of course it's not about the money. Other countries continually kick our intellectual ass with less.

Blaming the public school system for parents' apathy towards their own kids is beyond ridiculous.

[peewee's lovechild]

I'm sure there are more than just a few examples of CC success stories and I'm sure your stats back your position but I deal with facts and the fact is that I know not every HS graduate is going to attend a 4 yr U but that doesn't always mean it is a failure of the system.
But that is just me.

If they are not equipped academically to attend a 4 year U, then whose fault is it? Are you going lay the blame solely on the parents for this?

The public school system is broken. Yes, parents have a lot of blame in this, but public school enables students laziness and apathetic attitude as well.

[lebomb]

You're the exception, not the rule. The truth is, the vast majority of CC students are there because they don't have the academic skills to enter a 4 year U.

Even then, counselors should have helped giving you direction on where to go before you graduated from high school.


Sometimes I think its a matter of focus.

Case in point..........My best friend graduated from HS here in San Antonio with a C average at best. I went to college immediately after HS and received my bachelors as I worked and went to school. My buddy didnt want to go to college because he thought he wasnt smart enough because of his C avg in HS. Well I convinced him to go at 26yrs old.............he now has a Bachelors from St. Marys and a Masters from OLLU. He was Magna Cum Laude at both universities. He was much more focused when he knew his grades really were important and the fact that a degree would actually help him find a career.

:toast

[JoeChalupa]

You're the exception, not the rule. The truth is, the vast majority of CC students are there because they don't have the academic skills to enter a 4 year U.

Even then, counselors should have helped giving you direction on where to go before you graduated from high school.

I thought the vast majority of CC students are there because they want to get ahead and it may be less costly and more convenient for them. It is not necessarily because they couldn't enter a 4 yr school.

[desflood]

of course it's not about the money. Other countries continually kick our intellectual ass with less.

Blaming the public school system for parents' apathy towards their own kids is beyond ridiculous.
If it's not about the money, why do you mention it?

As far as parents' apathy goes, what do you attribute that to?

[JoeChalupa]

Sometimes I think its a matter of focus.

Case in point..........My best friend graduated from HS here in San Antonio with a C average at best. I went to college immediately after HS and received my bachelors as I worked and went to school. My buddy didnt want to go to college because he thought he wasnt smart enough because of his C avg in HS. Well I convinced him to go at 26yrs old.............he now has a Bachelors from St. Marys and a Masters from OLLU. He was Magna Cum Laude at both universities. He was much more focused when he knew his grades really were important and the fact that a degree would actually help him find a career.

:toast

Good post. I was average in HS and had a 4.0 in college.

[peewee's lovechild]

Less emphasis on "4 year universities" and more emphasis on trade schools and specific goal oriented short term learning programs would go a long way.

I actually agree with that.

The German and South Korean model of public education is similar to that, and they are both light years ahead of us here.

[Blake]

You're the exception, not the rule. The truth is, the vast majority of CC students are there because they don't have the academic skills to enter a 4 year U.


eh maybe. That doesnt mean the the college courses at CCs are easier than at a 4 year school.

Ive taken undergrad courses at both SAC and four year universities. I didn't see much difference in taking Astronomy I at SAC than taking Astronomy II at Tech.
The only difference was the night sky was much brighter and cleaner in Lubbock than here in SA which meant that looking through the giant telescope was much that much better.

I'm not sure there is any university out there where the sophomore attendance numbers are greater than the freshman numbers. Maybe there is, but it's gotta be rare.

[lebomb]

Less emphasis on "4 year universities" and more emphasis on trade schools and specific goal oriented short term learning programs would go a long way.

Ehhhh, I agree to an extent. College makes you a more well rounded person. All of the basic classes you are required to take besides your major helps with that. At a trade school you are only focusing on one thing usually. I guess it depends.

[peewee's lovechild]

Sometimes I think its a matter of focus.

Case in point..........My best friend graduated from HS here in San Antonio with a C average at best. I went to college immediately after HS and received my bachelors as I worked and went to school. My buddy didnt want to go to college because he thought he wasnt smart enough because of his C avg in HS. Well I convinced him to go at 26yrs old.............he now has a Bachelors from St. Marys and a Masters from OLLU. He was Magna Cum Laude at both universities. He was much more focused when he knew his grades really were important and the fact that a degree would actually help him find a career.

:toast

Focus is not the problem when you don't have the ACADEMIC SKILLS to get into a basic 4 yr U!!

UTSA has some very lax academic standards, but even then students don't have the skills to get into this university.

They have to go to a CC to gain those skills and reapply after two years. That's not all the parents fault. It is also the fault of the school system for not preparing them.

That's what we get when all they care about is kids passing that piece of shit exam known as The TAKS.

[lebomb]

Focus is not the problem when you don't have the ACADEMIC SKILLS to get into a basic 4 yr U!!




I would think someone looking at a student trying to enroll in a 4yr U with a C average would be thought of as NOT having academic skills. Would they not? :(

Some kids are brilliant, just lazy......or procrastinators or just dont care. There are many more reasons than not being taught proper academics.......at least IMHO. :wakeup

[Blake]

If it's not about the money, why do you mention it?

to show that it's not about the money


As far as parents' apathy goes, what do you attribute that to?

well if you have research to show that apathy comes from being educated in a public school system, I'd love to see it.

There are any number of reasons why a parent fails to push their kids in school.
Apathy from being a product of the system seems to be very very low on that list.........unless of course you have that research handy.

[Blake]

Ehhhh, I agree to an extent. College makes you a more well rounded person. All of the basic classes you are required to take besides your major helps with that. At a trade school you are only focusing on one thing usually. I guess it depends.

for the purposes of moving our society forward at a quicker pace, I'd say suggesting trade school to more of these kids is a good idea.

a degree in psychology is a nice thing to have, but it doesn't teach you how to change out a motherboard in a laptop.

[Blake]

Focus is not the problem when you don't have the ACADEMIC SKILLS to get into a basic 4 yr U!!

UTSA has some very lax academic standards, but even then students don't have the skills to get into this university.

They have to go to a CC to gain those skills and reapply after two years. That's not all the parents fault. It is also the fault of the school system for not preparing them.

That's what we get when all they care about is kids passing that piece of shit exam known as The TAKS.

there's some truth in that, but as you know yourself, discipline is a big problem.

If all the kids behaved like they should, learning would be a breeze...

.....which again, starts in the home.

[peewee's lovechild]

I thought the vast majority of CC students are there because they want to get ahead and it may be less costly and more convenient for them. It is not necessarily because they couldn't enter a 4 yr school.

All right.

You are right. Everything that is wrong is the parents fault and only their fault. The public school system is beyond reproach. Students graduate with such a high knowledge in all subjects that are important for an education.

Everyone goes to a community college only becaue they have lost focus or because they want to save money.

Also, I spent 4 years working as a teacher only to not know what I'm talking about.

[JoeChalupa]

All right.

You are right. Everything that is wrong is the parents fault and only their fault. The public school system is beyond reproach. Students graduate with such a high knowledge in all subjects that are important for an education.

Everyone goes to a community college only becaue they have lost focus or because they want to save money.

Also, I spent 4 years working as a teacher only to not know what I'm talking about.

I never said you don't know what you are talking about nor did I say the PSS was beyond reproach. You are too quick to give in and I don't even have a college degree.

[lebomb]

Also, I spent 4 years working as a teacher only to not know what I'm talking about.


So you are saying you failed miserably and didnt teach the kids a damn thing? :p:

[peewee's lovechild]

I would think someone looking at a student trying to enroll in a 4yr U with a C average would be thought of as NOT having academic skills. Would they not? :(

Some kids are brilliant, just lazy......or procrastinators or just dont care. There are many more reasons than not being taught proper academics.......at least IMHO. :wakeup

That's the problem.

Teachers are forced to dumb things down because of two reasons. They are forced to teach curriculum that will only be covered in the TAKS Examn and inclusion (adding ED, Special Ed, etc., students to the classroom) makes you dumb down the content of what you can give the class as a whole.

There are a lot of brilliant students that are not being challenged, and are given an easy out from challenges, that do the bare minimum.

I'm not worried about those kids, they're always going to be smart. I'm worried about the kids that can get somewhere in life if they are pushed a little to succeed. The way things are, they don't get that push and they aren't motivated to do a damn thing. So, they go through life with the same old "do the bare minimum" attitude.

[peewee's lovechild]

there's some truth in that, but as you know yourself, discipline is a big problem.

If all the kids behaved like they should, learning would be a breeze...

.....which again, starts in the home.

And, I agree with you.

But, the discipline that can be corrected at school isn't addressed at school because it's a lot easier for everyone just to round them up and put them in a special school (Alternative) or in ISS.

[jcrod]

Something seems a little fishy there...

:lol


hey, she's my baby, what do you expect me to say...she's the devils child.:lol :depressed

[lebomb]

That's the problem.

Teachers are forced to dumb things down because of two reasons. They are forced to teach curriculum that will only be covered in the TAKS Examn and inclusion (adding ED, Special Ed, etc., students to the classroom) makes you dumb down the content of what you can give the class as a whole.

There are a lot of brilliant students that are not being challenged, and are given an easy out from challenges, that do the bare minimum.

I'm not worried about those kids, they're always going to be smart. I'm worried about the kids that can get somewhere in life if they are pushed a little to succeed. The way things are, they don't get that push and they aren't motivated to do a damn thing. So, they go through life with the same old "do the bare minimum" attitude.

I completely agree with you on that fact..........I think the schools do try and make things as easy as they can for the kids, instead of pushing them a bit.

[peewee's lovechild]

So you are saying you failed miserably and didnt teach the kids a damn thing? :p:

Yes, but I was made to fail.

Case in point:

When I first started, I demanded my students do daily homework. My principal came down on me and told me that I had to understand that "home life" can be difficult for students and that I was ony allowed to give homework twice a week and that it couldn't be on a Friday because we have to consider that family, nor could it be on a Monday because they would have just started the week.

Then, when I made my tests in the form of short answers instead of multiple choice, all holy hell broke out. My principal told me that I was being "restrictive" (whatever the fuck that was supposed to mean) and that I was supposed to "give them a chance to get it right." Seriously, that's what I was told.

Then, when it came down to submitting grades, I got into trouble again. Because I had high expectations of my students, about 40% of my students failed (mostly because they just refused to do their homework and what not). My principal called me over the intercom and told me to come to her office immediately.

I was ambushed by the principle, dean of instruction, and the head counselor. It basically came down that I was being to hard on the kids, I had to take into the students family life into consideration, and that by no means should I fail anymore than 10% of my students. They made me change the grades.

It went on and on like that until I just quit the job because I didn't want to be a babysitter anymore.

Like I said, the public school system is broken.

[The Reckoning]

And, I agree with you.

But, the discipline that can be corrected at school isn't addressed at school because it's a lot easier for everyone just to round them up and put them in a special school (Alternative) or in ISS.


I was put in ISS in Kindergarten because I called a kid a fatass.

that kid was huuuuuuuuge.

bastards made me write the alphabet (big letter and little letter) 24 fucking times. imagine trying to do that in Kindergarten. total bullshit.

[peewee's lovechild]

I never said you don't know what you are talking about nor did I say the PSS was beyond reproach. You are too quick to give in and I don't even have a college degree.

No, I just gave up arguing with some one that obviously doesn't know anthing that goes on in public education. And, by that I'm not saying that you don't take interest in your children and their school, just that you don't know jack about the inner workings of the school.

[Blake]

And, I agree with you.

But, the discipline that can be corrected at school isn't addressed at school because it's a lot easier for everyone just to round them up and put them in a special school (Alternative) or ISS.

eh....you and I both know the paperwork involved in putting a kid in ISS.You yourself said that asst principal's kicked the kids back and told you to deal with it....

and if you have a better discipline system than ISS or alt school, feel free to share.

In a perfect world, a simple phone call to parents should end whatever discipline problems a kid is having......but we all know it's rare that it does.

I think parents have come to rely on the public schools being the ones to shoulder the discpline problems which to me is problem #1.

[peewee's lovechild]

I was put in ISS in Kindergarten because I called a kid a fatass.

that kid was huuuuuuuuge.

bastards made me write the alphabet (big letter and little letter) 24 fucking times. imagine trying to do that in Kindergarten. total bullshit.

:lmao

[lebomb]

Yes, but I was made to fail.

Case in point:

When I first started, I demanded my students do daily homework. My principal came down on me and told me that I had to understand that "home life" can be difficult for students and that I was ony allowed to give homework twice a week and that it couldn't be on a Friday because we have to consider that family, nor could it be on a Monday because they would have just started the week.

Then, when I made my tests in the form of short answers instead of multiple choice, all holy hell broke out. My principal told me that I was being "restrictive" (whatever the fuck that was supposed to mean) and that I was supposed to "give them a chance to get it right." Seriously, that's what I was told.

Then, when it came down to submitting grades, I got into trouble again. Because I had high expectations of my students, about 40% of my students failed (mostly because they just refused to do their homework and what not). My principal called me over the intercom and told me to come to her office immediately.

I was ambushed by the principle, dean of instruction, and the head counselor. It basically came down that I was being to hard on the kids, I had to take into the students family life into consideration, and that by no means should I fail anymore than 10% of my students. They made me change the grades.

It went on and on like that until I just quit the job because I didn't want to be a babysitter anymore.

Like I said, the public school system is broken.

Damn man, that sucks. I hate to ask what district you taught in.

Yep, seems like they shoved those kids through. The kids will pay for it later for sure.

[Blake]

Yes, but I was made to fail.

Case in point:

When I first started, I demanded my students do daily homework. My principal came down on me and told me that I had to understand that "home life" can be difficult for students and that I was ony allowed to give homework twice a week and that it couldn't be on a Friday because we have to consider that family, nor could it be on a Monday because they would have just started the week.

Then, when I made my tests in the form of short answers instead of multiple choice, all holy hell broke out. My principal told me that I was being "restrictive" (whatever the fuck that was supposed to mean) and that I was supposed to "give them a chance to get it right." Seriously, that's what I was told.

Then, when it came down to submitting grades, I got into trouble again. Because I had high expectations of my students, about 40% of my students failed (mostly because they just refused to do their homework and what not). My principal called me over the intercom and told me to come to her office immediately.

I was ambushed by the principle, dean of instruction, and the head counselor. It basically came down that I was being to hard on the kids, I had to take into the students family life into consideration, and that by no means should I fail anymore than 10% of my students. They made me change the grades.

It went on and on like that until I just quit the job because I didn't want to be a babysitter anymore.

Like I said, the public school system is broken.

Your school's principal is broken....

although there has been some of that going on in my wife's school.

bottom line is funding. Too many failing kids = less/no aid

[lebomb]

Im not going to lie, when I started at Utsa.......I didnt study worth a damn. I would hang out at frat parties and school work was kind of a secondary thought. Got my grades after my sophomore year.........I was almost to academic probation. Something snapped in my mind..........like "HEY, dumbass......do you want to flunk out now?" halfway thru college? Jeopardize your career plans? " or do you want to get your act together?" Well, I made my decision and focused.............I made all A' s and B's through my junior/senior year. My final senior design project was 1 of 3 chosen (out of over 20 students in my class) to recieve an A by a jury architects throughout San Antonio.

I had to get focused.

[leemajors]

the fact that a degree would actually help him find a career.

:toast

i disagree with this statement. the only people i know "using" their degrees graduated with engineering degrees from UT.

[lebomb]

i disagree with this statement. the only people i know "using" their degrees graduated with engineering degrees from UT.


LOL, then you dont know many people. I have a degree and everyone that works for me is required to have a bachelors minimum. We wont even look at your resume without the degree. My sister works at UT and she has her masters from Utsa. My buddy I talked about is a professor at a university right now. I have 3 cousins that work on the east coast.....all of their positions required a degree.

*shrugs*

[leemajors]

LOL, then you dont know many people. I have a degree and everyone that works for me is required to have a bachelors minimum. We wont even look at your resume without the degree. My sister works at UT and she has her masters from Utsa. My buddy I talked about is a professor at a university right now. I have 3 cousins that work on the east coast.....all of their positions required a degree.

*shrugs*

i know plenty of people, they just have liberal arts degrees and work at computer companies. degrees are much less important than who you know where, imo. :lol

[mrsmaalox]

My kids have been schooled (private and public) in 4 different states. Texas is #2 on my list so far behind Georgia, but ahead of Washington and Maryland. But 2 things have really stuck out to me here that I didn't see anywhere else. First is that freaking TAKS test! I have witnessed my kids teachers transform from friendly, caring beings into terrified automatons at TAKS time. That can't be good for the kids. Second, there seems to be a mid-level bureaucracy in place that stalls/blocks all communication between the lower level (teachers) and the highest level (the district). These people include counselors, principals, program directors, etc. It's like they are a filter that only feeds the district what makes themselves look good. But it's so widespread it has to be the way the system is set up. What's up with that?

[Blake]

LOL, then you dont know many people. I have a degree and everyone that works for me is required to have a bachelors minimum. We wont even look at your resume without the degree. My sister works at UT and she has her masters from Utsa. My buddy I talked about is a professor at a university right now. I have 3 cousins that work on the east coast.....all of their positions required a degree.

*shrugs*

I'm betting the positions required a degree plus some level of experience.

A liberal arts degree won't get you very far at all unless you want to get into education.

[lebomb]

i know plenty of people, they just have liberal arts degrees and work at computer companies. degrees are much less important than who you know where, imo. :lol


We all know there is more than one way to skin a cat. :toast

[mrsmaalox]

i disagree with this statement. the only people i know "using" their degrees graduated with engineering degrees from UT.

That goes for health care/medical degrees as well.

[lebomb]

I'm betting the positions required a degree plus some level of experience.



Some yes, some no.

[peewee's lovechild]

Your school's principal is broken....

although there has been some of that going on in my wife's school.

bottom line is funding. Too many failing kids = less/no aid

Basically all the principals in that district work in that fashion. Many of my family members are teachers and they all have principals that are exactly that way.

As for funding, that district is the biggest district south of San Antonio, and they get funding up the wazoo.

[peewee's lovechild]

Another example of how schools have fucked up, many high schools have year book pages dedicated to girls that have gotten pregnant throught the year.

I'm not joking about this.

There is a section on most high school year books called "School Moms" or a variety of that.

This would've been unthinkable 15 years ago.

[peewee's lovechild]

eh....you and I both know the paperwork involved in putting a kid in ISS.You yourself said that asst principal's kicked the kids back and told you to deal with it....

and if you have a better discipline system than ISS or alt school, feel free to share.

In a perfect world, a simple phone call to parents should end whatever discipline problems a kid is having......but we all know it's rare that it does.

I think parents have come to rely on the public schools being the ones to shoulder the discpline problems which to me is problem #1.

Long term ISS requires paperwork, temporary ISS doesn't. I've gone to ISS on any given day and they have kids sitting on the floor because teachers send them there.

They get sent back, but their next teacher sends them to ISS again and the cycle repeats itself.

I agree with the last bit of your statement, but I also believe that corporal punishment would go a looooooong way to help solving this problem.

[The Reckoning]

Another example of how schools have fucked up, many high schools have year book pages dedicated to girls that have gotten pregnant throught the year..



i had a pregnant girl in my 8th grade class. she was treated like a queen...


but seriously, i really hope these kids getting babied in elementary school end up fucking up beyond belief and drop out of high school.

they then can come work for me for low pay :tu

[BacktoBasics]

Ehhhh, I agree to an extent. College makes you a more well rounded person. All of the basic classes you are required to take besides your major helps with that. At a trade school you are only focusing on one thing usually. I guess it depends.In my opinion HS should make you a more well rounded person. As well as help develop a clear path for a career. College could be "specifically" designed for higher education as well as expanding certain areas of interest (IE being more well rounded). Instead of 4 years being pissed away trying to figure it out. More emphasis on a clear purpose with college. We've turned a form of higher learning into a glorified HS era of uncertainty and childhood antics.

[desflood]

well if you have research to show that apathy comes from being educated in a public school system, I'd love to see
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dumbing-Us-Down/John-Taylor-Gatto/e/9780865714489/?itm=1

This guy spells it out much better than I ever could.

[peewee's lovechild]

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dumbing-Us-Down/John-Taylor-Gatto/e/9780865714489/?itm=1

This guy spells it out much better than I ever could.

That looks like an interesting read.

[desflood]

He's written several. The guy was a NY public school teacher for thirty years, even won state teacher of the year. He spells out in his books exactly how the system runs and the purpose of running it that way - to mass produce workers who don't question anything.

[The Reckoning]

to mass produce workers who don't question anything.


:tu

as it should. noone to challenge me for my bid as their boss.

[Jekka]

One of my best friends is in the middle of his 2nd year of teaching math at the middle school level in the public school system (not in a wealthy district) - he spent his first year teaching math to 7th and 8th graders who had failed the standardized math tests the year before, and his classes had a 70% passing rate after his instruction.

That being said, he was mercilessly harassed by the administration, even though (or maybe especially because) the kids liked him, and he prefers to teach with a system of respect rather than fear. He has had really good results with this, in spite of the administration (who this year put him in 6th grade math, which he specifically stated he did NOT want to do ... so they're making him pay, basically for getting good results, and they're taking him away from the kids that need him most).

I agree that the system is pretty broken, and I think that if my friend were not as dedicated to the profession that his teaching would have really suffered. He hasn't been able to get parents involved, because they don't care for the most part - it's just a really hard place to be effective.

[CuckingFunt]

"I wanted to let you know that I had to talk with your child today because of how she has been treating other students. Today, a girl bent over and part of her underwear showed and your daughter proceeded to tell others about it until the girl was in tears. At the beginning of the year she had to go to the counselor because she started a club for girls who disliked a particular classmate. I asked your child why she feels like she is bettee than the other students and she didn't have an answer. I have talked with the girls in my class at length about how thet treat each other, but your daughter still seems to think she should get her way. I think she is losing friends and cannot treat others that way. Please discuss this with her because there are a lot of feelings getting hurt at school."


How would you respond?

I'd tell my kid to stop being a cunt.

And I'd start teaching her grammar and spelling at home.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I'd tell my kid to stop being a cunt.

And I'd start teaching her grammar and spelling at home.

I didn't phrase it as eloquently as you have, but she was told to get her act together.

[CuckingFunt]

You have no idea what it's like to teach in the public sector and you have no idea how public education is failing our children.

Public education is failing our children because our society is failing our children. Parents are fucked up, schools are fucked up, kids are fucked up, and none of this exists in a vacuum.

It is all a product of how we, as a culture, value education. It's not about learning anymore; it's about succeeding. It's about progressing, about graduating, about fucking leveling up. By and large, people will do just as much as they have to in order to move forward -- students put forth the minimum effort to get a passing grade, parents put forth the minimal effort to make sure their kids don't drop out, people do just enough at work to make sure they aren't fired, and teachers (some, not all) will do just enough to make sure that there isn't a riot in the classroom. Even in a college atmosphere, in upper division major specific classes, I find that truly engaging with the material tends to be the exception, and not the rule.

There needs to be a complete paradigm shift in order to remove the biases that this country has against taking a genuine interest in something. Caring too much -- about learning, about intellect, about people, whatever -- is to be ridiculed. At every level, and in every setting. Enthusiasm is silly. Commitment and dedication mean that you've sold out. Instead we reward indifference and dumb luck (and if the months of "real American" rhetoric we were all treated to isn't proof of this, I don't know what is).

Until this changes, wholly, and at every level, there's no hope of really improving our education system. Public or private.

[JoeChalupa]

With so many college educated people why can't the system get fixed? I hear about these school Phd superintendents making the big bucks. Are their hands that tied by government?

[CuckingFunt]

Ask yourself why they had to start there.

Likely financial reasons.

[desflood]

With so many college educated people why can't the system get fixed? I hear about these school Phd superintendents making the big bucks. Are their hands that tied by government?
This is what the system was set up to be - it's how they wanted it, they don't see it as broken and they don't want it "fixed". It's the old tyranny of government wrapped in the shell of "What's Best for The Children and The Future of This Country".

[CuckingFunt]

LOL, then you dont know many people. I have a degree and everyone that works for me is required to have a bachelors minimum. We wont even look at your resume without the degree. My sister works at UT and she has her masters from Utsa. My buddy I talked about is a professor at a university right now. I have 3 cousins that work on the east coast.....all of their positions required a degree.

*shrugs*

There's a difference between having a degree and using your degree. Liberal arts degrees can help make you attractive to employers, but that doesn't mean you'll be working anywhere near your field of study.

If I continue my education as planned, I'll have (at least) a BA and MFA in Art History and an MLIS. I can pretty well guarantee that, of the three, the library degree is the one that eventually gets me hired. If it's in an institution that's even tangentially related to Art History, I'll consider myself extremely lucky.

[peewee's lovechild]

Public education is failing our children because our society is failing our children. Parents are fucked up, schools are fucked up, kids are fucked up, and none of this exists in a vacuum.

It is all a product of how we, as a culture, value education. It's not about learning anymore; it's about succeeding. It's about progressing, about graduating, about fucking leveling up. By and large, people will do just as much as they have to in order to move forward -- students put forth the minimum effort to get a passing grade, parents put forth the minimal effort to make sure their kids don't drop out, people do just enough at work to make sure they aren't fired, and teachers (some, not all) will do just enough to make sure that there isn't a riot in the classroom. Even in a college atmosphere, in upper division major specific classes, I find that truly engaging with the material tends to be the exception, and not the rule.

There needs to be a complete paradigm shift in order to remove the biases that this country has against taking a genuine interest in something. Caring too much -- about learning, about intellect, about people, whatever -- is to be ridiculed. At every level, and in every setting. Enthusiasm is silly. Commitment and dedication mean that you've sold out. Instead we reward indifference and dumb luck (and if the months of "real American" rhetoric we were all treated to isn't proof of this, I don't know what is).

Until this changes, wholly, and at every level, there's no hope of really improving our education system. Public or private.

I completely agree with you.

[CuckingFunt]

In my opinion HS should make you a more well rounded person. As well as help develop a clear path for a career. College could be "specifically" designed for higher education as well as expanding certain areas of interest (IE being more well rounded). Instead of 4 years being pissed away trying to figure it out. More emphasis on a clear purpose with college. We've turned a form of higher learning into a glorified HS era of uncertainty and childhood antics.

I disagree with a lot of this, but I think we've already had that argument before.

[peewee's lovechild]

With so many college educated people why can't the system get fixed? I hear about these school Phd superintendents making the big bucks. Are their hands that tied by government?

The short answer: Yes.

[peewee's lovechild]

Likely financial reasons.

Not at all, though I would agree that for some this may very well be the reason.

But, most of those students can't reach the academic standards most 4 year Us have.

[lebomb]

There's a difference between having a degree and using your degree. Liberal arts degrees can help make you attractive to employers, but that doesn't mean you'll be working anywhere near your field of study.

If I continue my education as planned, I'll have (at least) a BA and MFA in Art History and an MLIS. I can pretty well guarantee that, of the three, the library degree is the one that eventually gets me hired. If it's in an institution that's even tangentially related to Art History, I'll consider myself extremely lucky.


True it is career based. My degree, my friends degree and my sisters degree are all directly related to our field. They actually had to be, based on the employment posting.

Whatever..........we all take different paths............those who dont want to attend college, that is cool. Those who do........coooooooooooooooooooooooool. :hat

[JoeChalupa]

Well I've got a 15 yr old and I've been on her about college from day one. With so many degrees out there.....I'm so confused. I would think that a BA and MFA in Art History and an MLIS wouldn't do squat for someone but clearly I'm wrong. There are so many fields where you can make good money without a degree as long as you specialize in that field.

[Jekka]

Well I've got a 15 yr old and I've been on her about college from day one. With so many degrees out there.....I'm so confused. I would think that a BA and MFA in Art History and an MLIS wouldn't do squat for someone but clearly I'm wrong. There are so many fields where you can make good money without a degree as long as you specialize in that field.

An MLIS (or MLS or MIS, depending on where you get it) is actually really marketable - it will get you into public libraries, academic libraries, special collections, museums, governmental agencies, etc. There are a lot of people out there with humanities degrees, but organizations like to see the MLIS because it means you've already done the work in learning administration, digitization, information and cataloging systems, etc.

[CuckingFunt]

Well I've got a 15 yr old and I've been on her about college from day one. With so many degrees out there.....I'm so confused. I would think that a BA and MFA in Art History and an MLIS wouldn't do squat for someone but clearly I'm wrong. There are so many fields where you can make good money without a degree as long as you specialize in that field.

To be clear, it's entirely possible that my intended degrees don't do squat. I'm still fairly early in the process of getting them, so I really don't know.

After taking ten years away from school (with the exception of a few JC classes peppered in here and there), I already know that I can make ends meet with a crappy clerical job if I need to. I'm a firm believer in studying what you love/what inspires you because you love it/it inspires you, rather than studying what you think will get you the best paycheck. I tried that route as an 18-year-old business major and was so completely bored out of my mind that I dropped out in my third semester.

[JoeChalupa]

An MLIS (or MLS or MIS, depending on where you get it) is actually really marketable - it will get you into public libraries, academic libraries, special collections, museums, governmental agencies, etc. There are a lot of people out there with humanities degrees, but organizations like to see the MLIS because it means you've already done the work in learning administration, digitization, information and cataloging systems, etc.

I guess I should have googled what an MLIS is. :lol I don't see her working in that field though.

[JoeChalupa]

To be clear, it's entirely possible that my intended degrees don't do squat. I'm still fairly early in the process of getting them, so I really don't know.

After taking ten years away from school (with the exception of a few JC classes peppered in here and there), I already know that I can make ends meet with a crappy clerical job if I need to. I'm a firm believer in studying what you love/what inspires you because you love it/it inspires you, rather than studying what you think will get you the best paycheck. I tried that route as an 18-year-old business major and was so completely bored out of my mind that I dropped out in my third semester.

:tu I tell her it isn't all about the benjamins.

[peewee's lovechild]

I guess I should have googled what an MLIS is. :lol I don't see her working in that field though.

An MLIS is a pretty damn good degree to go after.

I'm on my way to getting an MLS. It's similar, and I should get a pretty good job with that.

[JoeChalupa]

An MLIS is a pretty damn good degree to go after.

I'm on my way to getting an MLS. It's similar, and I should get a pretty good job with that.

I'm sure it is but I don't see her in the library field at all. I googled and see it is a relatively new degree. Not for her though. I never knew librarians made so much money.

[peewee's lovechild]

I never knew librarians made so much money.

Which is why we always have the last laugh.

[JoeChalupa]

Which is why we always have the last laugh.

A quiet one at that. :lol

[JoeChalupa]

http://www.payscale.com/chart/92/Median-Salary-by-Job---Degree-Master-of-Library-and-Information-Science-MLIS-United-States_USD_20090130081619-v1.0.jpg

Not bad at all.

[ploto]

I have met kids who like ISS. They work better there because they get to do the classwork without the instruction and then sit around the rest of the day. Also, there are often only a few kids there and they function better in that way.

[Jekka]

I never knew librarians made so much money.

Depends on where you are. San Antonio Public Library librarians start at $35k, requiring a masters. That's about $5000 less than what the average starting public school teacher in SA can expect to make.

Branch managers make a decent amount of money, though, and if you work your way up in a federal library you can make 6 figures.

[ploto]

http://www.payscale.com/chart/92/Median-Salary-by-Job---Degree-Master-of-Library-and-Information-Science-MLIS-United-States_USD_20090130081619-v1.0.jpg

Not bad at all.

Considering you have to have a Master's Degree, it is not that high of pay but most go into it NOT for the money.

[Blake]

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dumbing-Us-Down/John-Taylor-Gatto/e/9780865714489/?itm=1

This guy spells it out much better than I ever could.


excerpts? cliff notes?

I see nothing in the intro that says that public schools crank out apathetic parents.

[Blake]

Public education is failing our children because our society is failing our children. Parents are fucked up, schools are fucked up, kids are fucked up, and none of this exists in a vacuum.

It is all a product of how we, as a culture, value education. It's not about learning anymore; it's about succeeding. It's about progressing, about graduating, about fucking leveling up. By and large, people will do just as much as they have to in order to move forward -- students put forth the minimum effort to get a passing grade, parents put forth the minimal effort to make sure their kids don't drop out, people do just enough at work to make sure they aren't fired, and teachers (some, not all) will do just enough to make sure that there isn't a riot in the classroom. Even in a college atmosphere, in upper division major specific classes, I find that truly engaging with the material tends to be the exception, and not the rule.

There needs to be a complete paradigm shift in order to remove the biases that this country has against taking a genuine interest in something. Caring too much -- about learning, about intellect, about people, whatever -- is to be ridiculed. At every level, and in every setting. Enthusiasm is silly. Commitment and dedication mean that you've sold out. Instead we reward indifference and dumb luck (and if the months of "real American" rhetoric we were all treated to isn't proof of this, I don't know what is).

Until this changes, wholly, and at every level, there's no hope of really improving our education system. Public or private.


I agree. Reminds me of Office Space

Maybe the culture of doing the bare minimum starts with educators. They get paid based on tenure, so if teacher A with 10 years experience busts ass while teacher B gets by with the bare minimum, it doesn't matter.......they get paid the same.......

and chances are teacher B says to teacher A at some point: "why the hell are you busting your ass?"

[Blake]

Depends on where you are. San Antonio Public Library librarians start at $35k, requiring a masters. That's about $5000 less than what the average starting public school teacher in SA can expect to make.

Branch managers make a decent amount of money, though, and if you work your way up in a federal library you can make 6 figures.


librarians in most school districts are on the same pay salary scale as teachers:


http://www.nisd.net/hr/compensation/PayScales0809/Teacher%20Pay%20Comparison%2008-09%20Final%20Comparison_1.pdf

[Jekka]

librarians in most school districts are on the same pay salary scale as teachers:


http://www.nisd.net/hr/compensation/PayScales0809/Teacher%20Pay%20Comparison%2008-09%20Final%20Comparison_1.pdf

That's true, but I was referring to the public library versus the school districts. A public librarian's salary comes from the city, not from the school district.

[TMTTRIO]

I work in some of the schools as a substitute and the really scary thing is even when you have a student that you can see is very disturbed and showing some violent aggressive behavior (such as shoving a teacher down) that does need attention the school doesn't want to spend the money dealing with them so they send them back to your class again and sometimes contacting the parents to do something won't work. It's hard being a teacher too. The school's getting bad at telling what you can or cannot do as for disciplining a student and it's getting worse. Pretty soon you won't be able to do much at all except hope that all the parents work with you.

[DANILO DRASKOVIC]

How would you respond?

"At least she didnt give her a wedgie"

[MannyIsGod]

The whole knock on the public school system is crock in itself. There are thousands of kids who get into great colleges and careers through the public school system and many parents won't take the responsibility and blame the system. TEACH your kids how to behave in school so the teachers can do their jobs.

Its not a crock - the public school system is absolute shit who is producing a large amount of shitty students who can't even read or do simple algebra.

[MannyIsGod]

Not at all, though I would agree that for some this may very well be the reason.

But, most of those students can't reach the academic standards most 4 year Us have.

This this this this this.

There are probably more students in remedial classes in the ACCD system than anything else. Its flat out pathetic. When talking to my transfer counselor at SAC she was pretty much shocked I had never taken remidial courses. That's just sad.

[Extra Stout]

Trying to turn around the education system in the U.S. is futile. It's like trying to reform the operation of the boiler room on the Titanic. The United States is going to fail. We can pick out a few kids here and there and save them.

[JoeChalupa]

Well, my kids seem to be doing well in the public school system.

[desflood]

Well, my kids seem to be doing well in the public school system.
Please don't take this as an insult, that's not how it's intended - but everything about the pss is so dumbed down, it should be fairly easy for them to do well. When I transferred my son to private school this year, he had to repeat second grade. He was an honor roll student every semester in pss, but the academic standards are so low...

[smeagol]

Peewee was a teacher for 4 years? :wow

[JoeChalupa]

Please don't take this as an insult, that's not how it's intended - but everything about the pss is so dumbed down, it should be fairly easy for them to do well. When I transferred my son to private school this year, he had to repeat second grade. He was an honor roll student every semester in pss, but the academic standards are so low...

No insult taken. But I also don't just depend on the PSS. We've always looked for more ways for them to learn. Workbooks, learning software, reading EVERY day, worksheets and it doesn't stop during the summer.
And as I look over their homework they are doing things that I didn't learn until much later in school so I don't see it as being "easy" but that is just me. I'm very proud of them.
And I know the PSS is far from perfect but I also feel that some of it is due to the environment kids are growing up in.
Too much TV, video games, fashion, lack of discipline and so on. Too many kids simply don't read enough so they can't write well.
All I'm saying is that there are many, many successful students coming out of the PSS. During every graduation I hear many kids going to great colleges. Should there be more? Of course!!
That is all I'm saying.

[Das Texan]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bttf/images/thumb/5/5c/Strickland_1985.JPG/250px-Strickland_1985.JPG

Kids just need discipline.

[JoeChalupa]

But for the sake of argument. YES, the PSS needs major improvements and that cannot be denied.

[JoeChalupa]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bttf/images/thumb/5/5c/Strickland_1985.JPG/250px-Strickland_1985.JPG

Kids just need discipline.

Too many slackers?

[MannyIsGod]

Please don't take this as an insult, that's not how it's intended - but everything about the pss is so dumbed down, it should be fairly easy for them to do well. When I transferred my son to private school this year, he had to repeat second grade. He was an honor roll student every semester in pss, but the academic standards are so low...

An online gamer friend of mine goes to what I believe is a private HS in Oakland CA. The curriculum he's taking is the equivalent of college level courses and when he talks about his assignments I can't help to think of how far behind the kids in the public school system are.

There's simply no comparing a 17 year old who's reading and writing about books such as Like Water For Chocolate and a kid here in TX who probably can't write a generic 5 paragraph essay.

[Das Texan]

Too many slackers?



http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bttf/images/thumb/5/5c/Strickland_1985.JPG/250px-Strickland_1985.JPG


These kids are slackers just like their parents were slackers. They will never amount to much.

[MannyIsGod]

And god damn its SAD as hell when kids can't pass the TAKS. Those tests are incredibly easy.

[Das Texan]

An online gamer friend of mine goes to what I believe is a private HS in Oakland CA. The curriculum he's taking is the equivalent of college level courses and when he talks about his assignments I can't help to think of how far behind the kids in the public school system are.

There's simply no comparing a 17 year old who's reading and writing about books such as Like Water For Chocolate and a kid here in TX who probably can't write a generic 5 paragraph essay.


Ya thats true. I mean I fucking read Gone with the Wind in 10th grade.


Do public high school students even know what Gone with the Wind is, much less read it?

[Das Texan]

The TAKS is reason A that I could never be a public school teacher, and probably the reason if I were to ever teach it would have to be on the college level.

[JoeChalupa]

An online gamer friend of mine goes to what I believe is a private HS in Oakland CA. The curriculum he's taking is the equivalent of college level courses and when he talks about his assignments I can't help to think of how far behind the kids in the public school system are.

There's simply no comparing a 17 year old who's reading and writing about books such as Like Water For Chocolate and a kid here in TX who probably can't write a generic 5 paragraph essay.

Well, duh, of course there is no comparison. I don't have any problems with private schools. Send your kids there!! And I still like "To Kill a Mockingbird" which my oldest just read.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, duh, of course there is no comparison. I don't have any problems with private schools. Send your kids there!! And I still like "To Kill a Mockingbird" which my oldest just read.

The point is public schools should be at these levels too.

[Das Texan]

The point is public schools should be at these levels too.

Or if not on that level then just a tick or maybe two behind.

Not miles upon miles.

[JoeChalupa]

The point is public schools should be at these levels too.

I concur.

[Extra Stout]

The point is public schools should be at these levels too.
The only way that public schools could possibly meet those standards in 2009 would be to give up universal education. Children as a whole are not capable of accomplishing the academic rigors of their grandparents' public schools, much less those of today's selective private schools, because they do not grow up in the kind of structured family environments necessary to sustain learning.

[Bigzax]

it's all about opportunity for the kids and the administrations willingness to accept bad behavior from students.

i know in my high school all the following were available:

Calculus AP
Physics II AP
Biology II AP
Chemistry II AP
English IV AP

most were done with the history classes and language classes by senior year...throw in an elective or two and you have a solid foundation for college.

of course...you still had seniors in remedial math and fucking off in world geography...

but i digress.

I'm not sure what classes Kennedy had available when i taught...talking high level.
That was 12 years ago though...

I think i would be surprised to see a Calculus class in that district...or any district not north of Hildebrand. (that's the cutoff street right?)

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

There's simply no comparing a 17 year old who's reading and writing about books such as Like Water For Chocolate and a kid here in TX who probably can't write a generic 5 paragraph essay.

You think it's limited to high schools? I didn't have to write one essay and only had a handful of group presentations in four years of college. Mind you, MSU isn't considered a top flight school, but Broad is considered a second-tier B school.

The classes were so easy I took two finals in the same time slot and finished them both within an hour. I probably should of went to Ann Arbor, but after visiting the campus and meeting some of the people, there was no way I was going to school to be a Wolverine. Besides the socialization and networking, college was a complete waste of time for me.

BTW, Kaz Fujita was one of my profs at MSU. From time to time, he used to bring in his father's old papers on the F-Scale and we'd discuss them, which was pretty cool. I believe he still gives lectures open to the public every Spring in Lansing. One of the nicest profs I ever had.

[peewee's lovechild]

I agree. Reminds me of Office Space

Maybe the culture of doing the bare minimum starts with educators. They get paid based on tenure, so if teacher A with 10 years experience busts ass while teacher B gets by with the bare minimum, it doesn't matter.......they get paid the same.......

and chances are teacher B says to teacher A at some point: "why the hell are you busting your ass?"

In my situation, it was reverse.

I started off with energy and wanting to change how my students viewed education. After a short while, all the teachers you would classify as "A" told me to be more like teacher "B".

All the veteran teachers came down on me for wanting to do too much. They introduced me to the concept of giving students a "Circle 70", which pretty much means giving a flunking student a 70 so that he/she can move on to the next grade level and have the next teacher deal with him/her.

[peewee's lovechild]

librarians in most school districts are on the same pay salary scale as teachers:


http://www.nisd.net/hr/compensation/PayScales0809/Teacher%20Pay%20Comparison%2008-09%20Final%20Comparison_1.pdf

Don't forget to add the stipend.

The base salaries might be the same, but they get an increase for the Masters and a stipend for being a librarian.

They get paid more than teachers. Trust me on that one.

[peewee's lovechild]

I work in some of the schools as a substitute and the really scary thing is even when you have a student that you can see is very disturbed and showing some violent aggressive behavior (such as shoving a teacher down) that does need attention the school doesn't want to spend the money dealing with them so they send them back to your class again and sometimes contacting the parents to do something won't work. It's hard being a teacher too. The school's getting bad at telling what you can or cannot do as for disciplining a student and it's getting worse. Pretty soon you won't be able to do much at all except hope that all the parents work with you.

Thank you for this post.

This illustrates some of what is wrong with public schools.

[MannyIsGod]

You think it's limited to high schools? I didn't have to write one essay and only had a handful of group presentations in four years of college. Mind you, MSU isn't considered a top flight school, but Broad is considered a second-tier B school.

The classes were so easy I took two finals in the same time slot and finished them both within an hour. I probably should of went to Ann Arbor, but after visiting the campus and meeting some of the people, there was no way I was going to school to be a Wolverine. Besides the socialization and networking, college was a complete waste of time for me.

BTW, Kaz Fujita was one of my profs at MSU. From time to time, he used to bring in his father's old papers on the F-Scale and we'd discuss them, which was pretty cool. I believe he still gives lectures open to the public every Spring in Lansing. One of the nicest profs I ever had.

Oh trust me - I know damn well is not limited to HS. Someone posted above its more of a societal problem and they're right. Being educated gets you labeled as an elitist now.

[Das Texan]

Oh trust me - I know damn well is not limited to HS. Someone posted above its more of a societal problem and they're right. Being educated gets you labeled as an elitist now.



Wasnt there a thread on this just a couple of weeks ago in this forum?

[peewee's lovechild]

Trying to turn around the education system in the U.S. is futile. It's like trying to reform the operation of the boiler room on the Titanic. The United States is going to fail. We can pick out a few kids here and there and save them.

There is a way to fix it.

If we were to bring back discipline (corporal punishment and the like), ditch standardized testing, drop bi-lingual education, minimize the special ed programs, and bring back vocational education, America might stand a chance of producing well educated individuals again.

[peewee's lovechild]

No insult taken. But I also don't just depend on the PSS. We've always looked for more ways for them to learn. Workbooks, learning software, reading EVERY day, worksheets and it doesn't stop during the summer.
And as I look over their homework they are doing things that I didn't learn until much later in school so I don't see it as being "easy" but that is just me. I'm very proud of them.
And I know the PSS is far from perfect but I also feel that some of it is due to the environment kids are growing up in.
Too much TV, video games, fashion, lack of discipline and so on. Too many kids simply don't read enough so they can't write well.
All I'm saying is that there are many, many successful students coming out of the PSS. During every graduation I hear many kids going to great colleges. Should there be more? Of course!!
That is all I'm saying.

You're a damn good parent, Chalupa.

But, sadly, parents like you are few and far between.

Also, you're pretty much backing up what I have been saying about the pss. Although it's good that you go to those lengths to educate your children, it really is the school that should be doing this. It's their job to educate your children.

But, the truth is, you need to do this with your children because they're never going to be getting this in the classroom.

[peewee's lovechild]

An online gamer friend of mine goes to what I believe is a private HS in Oakland CA. The curriculum he's taking is the equivalent of college level courses and when he talks about his assignments I can't help to think of how far behind the kids in the public school system are.

There's simply no comparing a 17 year old who's reading and writing about books such as Like Water For Chocolate and a kid here in TX who probably can't write a generic 5 paragraph essay.

One of my old co-workers who moved on to teach in high school said that he covered a book called "Where The Red Ferns Grow" with his class. The funny thing is that one of my teachers covered that with our class in the 5th grade.

He said that he wanted to cover other literature, such as Homer's works or even that of Edgar Allen Poe, but his principal told him not to worry about stuff that they would probably cover in college.

Can you believe that shit?

To be fair, he's got the lower end of students. But, that's still some bullshit.

[peewee's lovechild]

The only way that public schools could possibly meet those standards in 2009 would be to give up universal education. Children as a whole are not capable of accomplishing the academic rigors of their grandparents' public schools, much less those of today's selective private schools, because they do not grow up in the kind of structured family environments necessary to sustain learning.

I agree.

[MannyIsGod]

Wow I read where the red fern grows in fifth grade too.

[MannyIsGod]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116083&page=2

Proof the PSS is fucked. Look at all the people who can't do simple math.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Proof the PSS is fucked. Look at all the people who can't do simple math.

The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I went to public school and my life sucks.

[Jekka]

You think it's limited to high schools? I didn't have to write one essay and only had a handful of group presentations in four years of college. Mind you, MSU isn't considered a top flight school, but Broad is considered a second-tier B school.

This is a good point - there are a lot of schools who cater to people that don't learn shit in high school so they can take their money for 4-5 years and give them a degree. My junior year at UTSA, in a senior-level history class, the professor took out an ENTIRE 3 hour class period to tell people how to write a basic 5 paragraph essay. This did not even include citations, bibliography, etc. My favorite prof there distributed a handout at the beginning of every class to remind people not to be stupid and write coherent sentences with original thought - typically, about 50% of his class would drop in the first couple weeks.

[Blake]

it's part this:


The only way that public schools could possibly meet those standards in 2009 would be to give up universal education. Children as a whole are not capable of accomplishing the academic rigors of their grandparents' public schools, much less those of today's selective private schools, because they do not grow up in the kind of structured family environments necessary to sustain learning.

and part this:


it's all about opportunity for the kids and the administrations willingness to accept bad behavior from students.

i know in my high school all the following were available:

Calculus AP
Physics II AP
Biology II AP
Chemistry II AP
English IV AP

most were done with the history classes and language classes by senior year...throw in an elective or two and you have a solid foundation for college.

of course...you still had seniors in remedial math and fucking off in world geography...

but i digress.

I'm not sure what classes Kennedy had available when i taught...talking high level.
That was 12 years ago though...

I think i would be surprised to see a Calculus class in that district...or any district not north of Hildebrand. (that's the cutoff street right?)

maybe the answer is to scratch off level one classes at the high school level and force kids in the lower levels to hurry up.......do algebra by 7th grade maybe.

Come to think of it, there is an inherent problem with our elementary school systems. One of my wife's Spanish degreed friends is teaching all the subject to her third grade class. It doesn't seem difficult to teach 3rd grade stuff, even if it's not your content area, but she doesn't remember most of it.
That pretty muh sucks for the kids

[Blake]

This is a good point - there are a lot of schools who cater to people that don't learn shit in high school so they can take their money for 4-5 years and give them a degree. My junior year at UTSA, in a senior-level history class, the professor took out an ENTIRE 3 hour class period to tell people how to write a basic 5 paragraph essay. This did not even include citations, bibliography, etc. My favorite prof there distributed a handout at the beginning of every class to remind people not to be stupid and write coherent sentences with original thought - typically, about 50% of his class would drop in the first couple weeks.

damn!

that would explain some of those utsa freaks over in the college sports forum

[Jekka]

maybe the answer is to scratch off level one classes at the high school level and force kids in the lower levels to hurry up.......do algebra by 7th grade maybe.

We focus so much on science and math (and rightly so, that is very important), but we also need to focus on the subjects that can have kids thinking critically at an earlier age. Education cannot just be about memorization and application of formulas - people need to know how to analyze and study and make intelligent inferences. These are things you learn by studying literature in English and different perspectives in history. Grammar is important, but so is learning how to interpret someone else's words in a way that helps you to see the universality of a concept so that it can be applied in other areas of life. It helps in math and science to be able to think more critically and relate those concepts to things that might make more sense to you - I'm pretty sure I never would have survived math if I hadn't had 7 years of music theory from piano lessons when I started algebra in 8th grade.

I really think it's about being well-rounded, and using the areas in which you excel to help you understand the areas to which you aren't as naturally inclined. To do that, however, you have to have the chance to find out what you're good at, and I think a lot of kids in the public school system don't really get that chance.

[Jekka]

damn!

that would explain some of those utsa freaks over in the college sports forum

No shit, right? Those people don't need a football team, they need professors that will fail them when they don't deserve to pass. Anyone in a senior level history class who cannot write a 5 paragraph essay does not deserve to pass.

[Blake]

There is a way to fix it.

If we were to bring back discipline (corporal punishment and the like), ditch standardized testing, drop bi-lingual education, minimize the special ed programs, and bring back vocational education, America might stand a chance of producing well educated individuals again.

-there is no way corporal punishment the way you are talking will ever come back

-don't ditch standardized testing, just reform it

-I'd say drop more of the ESL classes instead of dropping bi-lingual ed

-minimize what is being considered as 'special needs'. The list of things wrong with these kids is crazy........but that goes back to society telling parents that their kids need Riddlin.........when what they really needs is an ass kick.

+1 on the vocational education.

[travis2]

Yes, but I was made to fail.

Case in point:

When I first started, I demanded my students do daily homework. My principal came down on me and told me that I had to understand that "home life" can be difficult for students and that I was ony allowed to give homework twice a week and that it couldn't be on a Friday because we have to consider that family, nor could it be on a Monday because they would have just started the week.

Then, when I made my tests in the form of short answers instead of multiple choice, all holy hell broke out. My principal told me that I was being "restrictive" (whatever the fuck that was supposed to mean) and that I was supposed to "give them a chance to get it right." Seriously, that's what I was told.

Then, when it came down to submitting grades, I got into trouble again. Because I had high expectations of my students, about 40% of my students failed (mostly because they just refused to do their homework and what not). My principal called me over the intercom and told me to come to her office immediately.

I was ambushed by the principle, dean of instruction, and the head counselor. It basically came down that I was being to hard on the kids, I had to take into the students family life into consideration, and that by no means should I fail anymore than 10% of my students. They made me change the grades.

It went on and on like that until I just quit the job because I didn't want to be a babysitter anymore.

Like I said, the public school system is broken.

That was my mother 30 years ago. San Antonio high school.

She actually had some students tell her they just wanted to graduate and get on welfare.

[travis2]

All the veteran teachers came down on me for wanting to do too much. They introduced me to the concept of giving students a "Circle 70", which pretty much means giving a flunking student a 70 so that he/she can move on to the next grade level and have the next teacher deal with him/her.

Now there's a term I haven't heard in years...

[desflood]

No insult taken. But I also don't just depend on the PSS. We've always looked for more ways for them to learn. Workbooks, learning software, reading EVERY day, worksheets and it doesn't stop during the summer.
And as I look over their homework they are doing things that I didn't learn until much later in school so I don't see it as being "easy" but that is just me. I'm very proud of them.
And I know the PSS is far from perfect but I also feel that some of it is due to the environment kids are growing up in.
Too much TV, video games, fashion, lack of discipline and so on. Too many kids simply don't read enough so they can't write well.
Thank God, Joe, there are still a few parents out there like yourself who give two shits about what their kids do. My last little bit of hope in humanity has not yet eroded :lol

[desflood]

-minimize what is being considered as 'special needs'. The list of things wrong with these kids is crazy........but that goes back to society telling parents that their kids need Riddlin.........when what they really needs is an ass kick..
What those kids need, frankly, is more recess. I don't know how people really expect a 6- or 7-year-old to sit and concentrate on mental work for three hours when he or she hasn't been allowed to do some physical movement. The average kid can't sit still that long and it's unfair of us to expect them to.

(Although, some of them do really also need a kick in the ass)

[CuckingFunt]

This is a good point - there are a lot of schools who cater to people that don't learn shit in high school so they can take their money for 4-5 years and give them a degree. My junior year at UTSA, in a senior-level history class, the professor took out an ENTIRE 3 hour class period to tell people how to write a basic 5 paragraph essay. This did not even include citations, bibliography, etc. My favorite prof there distributed a handout at the beginning of every class to remind people not to be stupid and write coherent sentences with original thought - typically, about 50% of his class would drop in the first couple weeks.

I've got a class this semester for which we have two assigned papers due. In Tuesday's lecture, when the professor was explaining the paper assignment, we were informed that we had the option of writing in essay format, or instead using bullet points. I couldn't believe it. Bullet points in a 300-level college class?

[Blake]

good article:


"Stupid in America" is a nasty title for a program about public education, but some nasty things are going on in America's public schools and it's about time we face up to it.

Kids at New York's Abraham Lincoln High School told me their teachers are so dull students fall asleep in class. One student said, "You see kids all the time walking in the school smoking weed, you know. It's a normal thing here."

We tried to bring "20/20" cameras into New York City schools to see for ourselves and show you what's going on in the schools, but officials wouldn't allow it.

Washington, D.C., officials steered us to the best classrooms in their district.

We wanted to tape typical classrooms but were turned down in state after state.

(abc news)Finally, school officials in Washington, D.C., allowed "20/20" to give cameras to a few students who were handpicked at two schools they'd handpicked. One was Woodrow Wilson High. Newsweek says it's one of the best schools in America. Yet what the students taped didn't inspire confidence.

One teacher didn't have control over the kids. Another "20/20" student cameraman videotaped a boy dancing wildly with his shirt off, in front of his teacher.

If you're like most American parents, you might think "These things don't happen at my kid's school." A Gallup Poll survey showed 76 percent of Americans were completely or somewhat satisfied with their kids' public school.

Education reformers like Kevin Chavous have a message for these parents: If you only knew.

Even though people in the suburbs might think their schools are great, Chavous says, "They're not. That's the thing and the test scores show that."

Chavous and many other education professionals say Americans don't know that their public schools, on the whole, just aren't that good. Because without competition, parents don't know what their kids might have had.

And while many people say, "We need to spend more money on our schools," there actually isn't a link between spending and student achievement.

Jay Greene, author of "Education Myths," points out that "If money were the solution, the problem would already be solved ... We've doubled per pupil spending, adjusting for inflation, over the last 30 years, and yet schools aren't better."

He's absolutely right. National graduation rates and achievement scores are flat, while spending on education has increased more than 100 percent since 1971. More money hasn't helped American kids.

Ben Chavis is a former public school principal who now runs an alternative charter school in Oakland, Calif., that spends thousands of dollars less per student than the surrounding public schools. He laughs at the public schools' complaints about money.

"That is the biggest lie in America. They waste money," he said.

To save money, Chavis asks the students to do things like keep the grounds picked up and set up for their own lunch. For gym class, his students often just run laps around the block. All of this means there's more money left over for teaching.

Even though he spends less money per student than the public schools do, Chavis pays his teachers more than what public school teachers earn. His school also thrives because the principal gets involved. Chavis shows up at every classroom and uses gimmicks like small cash payments for perfect attendance.

Since he took over four years ago, his school has gone from being among the worst in Oakland to being the best. His middle school has the highest test scores in the city.

"It's not about the money," he said.

He's confident that even kids who come from broken families and poor families will do well in his school. "Give me the poor kids, and I will outperform the wealthy kids who live in the hills. And we do it," he said.

Monopoly Kills Innovation and Cheats Kids
Chavis's charter school is an example of how a little innovation can create a school that can change kids' lives. You don't get innovation without competition.

To give you an idea of how competitive American schools are and how U.S. students performed compared with their European counterparts, we gave parts of an international test to some high school students in Belgium and in New Jersey.

Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks, and called them "stupid."

We didn't pick smart kids to test in Europe and dumb kids in the United States. The American students attend an above-average school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kids have test scores that are above average for America.

Lov Patel, the boy who got the highest score among the American students, told me, "I'm shocked, because it just shows how advanced they are compared to us."

The Belgian students didn't perform better because they're smarter than American students. They performed better because their schools are better. At age 10, American students take an international test and score well above the international average. But by age 15, when students from 40 countries are tested, the Americans place 25th.

American schools don't teach as well as schools in other countries because they are government monopolies, and monopolies don't have much incentive to compete. In Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.

more......

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/stossel/story?id=1500338

[The Reckoning]

I've got a class this semester for which we have two assigned papers due. In Tuesday's lecture, when the professor was explaining the paper assignment, we were informed that we had the option of writing in essay format, or instead using bullet points. I couldn't believe it. Bullet points in a 300-level college class?


hell where can i sign up for these classes?

i have two five page essays due every week and numerous blue book exams. on every paper we have atleast five citations...

maybe yall are doing too much pick a prof

[peewee's lovechild]

-there is no way corporal punishment the way you are talking will ever come back


That's a major problem. And, paradoxically, it's the parents that will fight it.



-don't ditch standardized testing, just reform it


Standardized testing has to go. Successful countries, like Germany and South Korea, don't used standardized tests.



-I'd say drop more of the ESL classes instead of dropping bi-lingual ed


Bi-lingual Ed does nothing to help students. Trust me. I come from an area that is heavily dependent on Bi-lingual Ed. Students receive Bi-lngual Ed up until high school.

On the flip side, when my father came into this country, he had to go through immersion, which meant sink or swim. He speaks perfect english, graduaed from HS with honors, and has a BA.

Bi-lingual Ed does nothing but slow down a students learning.



-minimize what is being considered as 'special needs'. The list of things wrong with these kids is crazy........but that goes back to society telling parents that their kids need Riddlin.........when what they really needs is an ass kick.


I agree.



+1 on the vocational education.


Voc Ed is essential for students who don't have and will never have the academic ability to make it in a 4 yr U.

[purist]

STFU and teach.

this attitude is what's wrong with education today

[peewee's lovechild]

That was my mother 30 years ago. San Antonio high school.

She actually had some students tell her they just wanted to graduate and get on welfare.

I had a student, in middle school mind you, that said her goal in life was to get pregnant and get a monthly check for the baby.

Two years later, she went ahead and did just that.

[peewee's lovechild]

I've got a class this semester for which we have two assigned papers due. In Tuesday's lecture, when the professor was explaining the paper assignment, we were informed that we had the option of writing in essay format, or instead using bullet points. I couldn't believe it. Bullet points in a 300-level college class?

That's just amazing.

[peewee's lovechild]

good article:

That's a very good article that pretty much says it all.

[CuckingFunt]

That's just amazing.

I was already pretty iffy on the class (no attendance requirements, syllabus full of busy work, etc.), but I literally felt the few ounces of respect I may have had left drain out as soon as she made that announcement.

Her explanation was that it isn't a writing class, and also indicated frustration that the school was trying to turn it into a writing class, so clearly it's just a case of her not wanting to deal with reading a bunch of papers. Complete bullshit, though. It's a fucking psychology class and, last time I checked, writing academic papers and journal articles was a pretty big part of the field.

[peewee's lovechild]

I was already pretty iffy on the class (no attendance requirements, syllabus full of busy work, etc.), but I literally felt the few ounces of respect I may have had left drain out as soon as she made that announcement.

Her explanation was that it isn't a writing class, and also indicated frustration that the school was trying to turn it into a writing class, so clearly it's just a case of her not wanting to deal with reading a bunch of papers. Complete bullshit, though. It's a fucking psychology class and, last time I checked, writing academic papers and journal articles was a pretty big part of the field.

That's bullshit. She just doesn't want to grade papers. But, she could very easily have her TA grade the papers for her.

All this is pathetic and it's just reminding me of why I left the education field. It's beyond pathetic.

[travis2]

I had a student, in middle school mind you, that said her goal in life was to get pregnant and get a monthly check for the baby.

Two years later, she went ahead and did just that.

I am not surprised.

I've been accused of making stories like that up.