Texan who died in prison cleared of rape conviction

[ploto]

Texas district court judge Friday reversed the conviction of a man who died in prison nearly a decade ago, almost two decades into a prison sentence for a rape he swore he did not commit, CNN affiliate KXAN reported.

Timothy Cole was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for the 1985 rape of 20-year-old Michele Mallin. He maintained his innocence, but it was not confirmed by DNA until years after his 1999 death, when another inmate confessed to the rape.

In the courtroom of Judge Charlie Baird Friday afternoon, Mallin, now 44, faced Jerry Johnson, the man who confessed to the rape.

"What you did to me, you had no right to do," she told him angrily, according to Austin's KXAN. "You've got no right to do that to any woman. I am the one with the power now, buddy."

Cole's family also addressed Johnson.

"He'll never have the chance to have children," Cole's mother, Ruby Session, said. "I want you to know he was a fine young man."

Johnson has been in prison since 1985 on two convictions for aggravated sexual assault, according to the Texas Department of Corrections. He was given a life sentence for the rape of a 15-year-old girl, and a jury later tacked on a 99-year sentence for another rape, according to the Lubbock, Texas, Avalanche-Journal. He cannot be charged with the Mallin case, as the statute of limitations has expired.

Johnson also spoke Friday.

"I am responsible," he said. "I say I am truly sorry."

Then a student at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Mallin was walking to her car, intending to move it to another parking lot, when a man approached her asking about jumper cables, she said. In a matter of seconds, he put her in a choke hold and held a knife to her neck. He forced himself into her car and drove her to the outskirts of town, where he raped her.

The next day, police investigators showed Mallin pictures of possible suspects. She chose a picture of Cole and said he was her attacker. She later identified him in a physical lineup, according to the Innocence Project of Texas.

"I was positive," she said. "I really thought it was him."

But there was one detail: Mallin told police her attacker was a smoker. "He was smoking the entire time."

Cole, who suffered from severe asthma, "was never a smoker," said his brother, Cory Session. "He took daily medications [for asthma] when he was younger."

"He was the sacrificial lamb. To them, my brother was the Tech rapist, there was no backtracking. It was the trial of the decade for Lubbock."

The "Tech rapist" attacked four women other than Mallin -- abducting them in parking lots near campus and driving them to a vacant location, where he would rape them and flee on foot, according to the Innocence Project of Texas. The rapist "terrorized" the Texas Tech campus in the mid-1980s, the organization said.

Cole, like Mallin, was a student at Texas Tech. He had finished two years of college previously and was returning to school after spending two years in the Army, his brother said.

But his dreams of getting married and having children never materialized. He was arrested and charged with Mallin's rape, declining a plea bargain offer that would have put him on probation. A jury convicted him and imposed a 25-year sentence.

That night, "he hugged my mother and he said, 'Mother, why these people lie on me, why they do this to me?'" Cole's brother Reggie Session recounted for the Avalanche-Journal, which published a three-part series on the case in June.

"He said, 'They know I ain't done nothing to that girl. I don't even know that girl. Why they do this to me, mother?' ... He cried in my mother's arms on the floor."

Later, while in prison, Cole rejected an offer of parole that would have required him to admit guilt. "His greatest wish was to be exonerated and completely vindicated," his mother, Ruby Session, told KXAN.

But the asthma that plagued Cole throughout his life brought about his death on December 2, 1999. The cause was determined to be heart complications due to his asthmatic condition. He was 39.

It was 2007 when a letter addressed to Cole arrived at his family's home, written by Johnson.

"You may recall my name from your 1986 rape trial in Lubbock," says the letter, dated May 11, 2007. "Your Lubbock attorney, Mike Brown, tried to show I committed the rape.

"I have been trying to locate you since 1995 to tell you I wish to confess I did in fact commit the rape Lubbock wrongly convicted you of. It is very possible that through a written confession from me and DNA testing, you can finally have your name cleared of the rape ... if this letter reaches you, please contact me by writing so that we can arrange to take the steps to get the process started. Whatever it takes, I will do it."

Johnson did not know Cole had died. In fact, according to the Avalanche-Journal, he had been writing to court officials for years to confess to the rape, but got nowhere.

Upon finding out that Cole was dead, Johnson wrote he "cried and felt double guilty, even though I know the system's at fault," according to the Avalanche-Journal.

"A day later, I am still bothered, terribly, by the death revelation. Because, not knowing Mr. Cole at all, I wonder if the wrongful incarceration contributed to his death."

The Innocence Project became involved after Cole's family received Johnson's letter. DNA tests confirmed that Johnson was Mallin's attacker. Now, Cole's family hopes the court hearing will be the final step in clearing his name.

Mallin is helping them. "I was very traumatized," she said. "I was scared for my life. I tried my hardest to remember what he looked like.

"I'm trying to get his name cleared. It's the right thing to do."

Cory Session said, "We don't blame Michele. She's very gracious."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html

[BlackSwordsMan]

shit happens

[TDMVPDPOY]

compensation its real, and im sure the coles will not receive a penny of it cause the lawyers are going to milk that shit

[Winehole23]

Shit happens...when LE is more concerned with getting a conviction than the right man, ignores any conflicting information, then refuses to face its mistakes afterward.Fixed.

[jack sommerset]

Just awful

[Winehole23]

compensation its real, and im sure the coles will not receive a penny of it cause the lawyers are going to milk that shitProbably not. The Innocence Project is a non-profit organization.

[Trainwreck2100]

"What you did to me, you had no right to do," she told him angrily, according to Austin's KXAN. "You've got no right to do that to any woman. I am the one with the power now, buddy."

Lets hope the bitch has the right guy this time

[Winehole23]

Lets hope the bitch has the right guy this timeCheck the thread. The rapist identified himself to LE.

[IronMexican]

Horrible. Compensation wont bring back all the time that man lost with his family. This shit pisses me off. Winehole is 100% correct. All they want is for someone to plead guilty.

[Trainwreck2100]

Check the thread. The rapist identified himself to LE.

I just wonder if she gave that whole "I have all the power" speech at the trial of the innocent guy

[Winehole23]

I just wonder if she gave that whole "I have all the power" speech at the trial of the innocent guyMaybe. Ms. Mallin stepped forward (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/09/rape-victim-seeks-court-to-clear-name.html)to help clear the Mr. Cole when the mistake came to light. My hat's off to her.

False witness identifications aren't rare, especially when PD's don't follow best practices.

[Trainwreck2100]

Maybe. Ms. Mallin stepped forward (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/09/rape-victim-seeks-court-to-clear-name.html)to help clear the Mr. Cole when the mistake came to light. My hat's off to her.

False witness identifications aren't rare, especially when PD's don't follow best practices.


False Witness IDs have nothing to do with the PDs, false convictions do. She pointed her finger at the guy more than once and swore under oath that he attacked her

[SpursFanFirst]

False Witness IDs have nothing to do with the PDs, false convictions do. She pointed her finger at the guy more than once and swore under oath that he attacked her

It's sad to know this man died in prison, where he was serving time for a crime he didn't commit.

I think it's harsh, though, to criticize the female victim here.
Yes, it's unfortunate she pointed the finger at the wrong man.
But has anyone here ever been raped?
Have you ever had to ID the person who attacked you?

I can't even begin to imagine the pressure that was put on this young woman to make a decision.

The whole thing sucks.
The only person who's responsible for this mess is the man who actually committed the crime.

[Bartleby]

The whole thing sucks.
The only person who's responsible for this mess is the man who actually committed the crime.

I'd say the court officials who ignored repeated letters of confession to the crime from the person who actually committed it are culpable to some extent as well.

[jman3000]

That's the state of our justice system.

It's horrible what happened and I hope the family gets justly compensated.

[Galileo]

The people responsible for kidnapping this man and smearing his name should be locked up and raped with a plunger.

[Galileo]

Cory Session said, "We don't blame Michele. She's very gracious."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html

"Michele" is dangerous and should be locked up for life without parole.

[FromWayDowntown]

The only person who's responsible for this mess is the man who actually committed the crime.

I'd be reluctant to limit the blame in that way. Certainly, the guy who committed the crime set this course of events into motion and he's morally culpable for all that followed. No crime, no problems.

But, with that said, the prosecutors who had -- at best -- a circumstantial case with holes have to bear some blame for their willingness to proceed with such a weak case. And the judge bears some blame for not recognizing the weakness of the prosecution's case and doing something about that. And the investigating officers who made an arrest despite having only a weak circumstantial case are blameworthy, too.

I'm glad to see that there are organizations who have taken it upon themselves to look into questionable convictions and work to absolve the innocent as soon as they can. I'm also glad to know that certain District Attorneys -- particularly the DA in Dallas -- have recognized that there should be some skepticism about some convictions; the Dallas DA has instituted a program that created an entire unit to look into cases in which things like DNA evidence could more firmly establish guilt or innocence. Such efforts should be the rule and not the exception, but it has to start somewhere.

With that said, the increasingly-frequent absolution of inmates for crimes only hardens my belief that the death penalty is wrong.

[The Reckoning]

memory misattribution. she probably saw cole earlier in the day. he might have been in one of her classes.

[Galileo]

memory misattribution. she probably saw cole earlier in the day. he might have been in one of her classes.

Wrong - The false rape accuser says "I think that's him" on the video.

Video - Texan who died in prison cleared of rape conviction
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

But at the trial, she told the jury she was positive that's him. So her lies caused the death of an innocent man, and allowed four more women to be raped by the real rapist.

Michele "all black people look alike" Mallin is a liar and a racist and should be locked up for life before she harms anyone else.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Wrong - The false rape accuser says "I think that's him" on the video.

Video - Texan who died in prison cleared of rape conviction
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

But at the trial, she told the jury she was positive that's him. So her lies caused the death of an innocent man, and allowed four more women to be raped by the real rapist.

Michele "all black people look alike" Mallin is a liar and a racist and should be locked up for life before she harms anyone else.

I'm pretty sure someone must have already told you this, but you're one complete fucking moron, you know that?

A liar and a racist?? The girl was raped, you think she didn't want to catch the one that did it? She's the first victim out of all of this.

[Galileo]

I'm pretty sure someone must have already told you this, but you're one complete fucking moron, you know that?

A liar and a racist?? The girl was raped, you think she didn't want to catch the one that did it? She's the first victim out of all of this.

You are the moron and amazingly tolerant of violent crime.

She's a racist. She claims that Tim Cole looks like Johnson because both are black men. Tim Cole looks nothing like Johnson.

She lied at the trial when she said she was sure that Tim Cole did it, when in fact she admits that she only thinks he might have done it.

[whottt]

I'm with Galileo...acting like this bitch didn't have a ton to do with this man's false imprisonment and subsequent death is just plain old stupid.

What, because she was raped it's ok for her to identify the wrong guy and send him to prison for life?

Stupid fucking logic...her being raped isn't an excuse for making the wrong ID and sending this poor batard to prison.

She said the wrong guy raped her.....seeing as how the penalty for that crime is a pretty severe one, perhaps she should have made sure she was id'ing the right guy.



I want to ask every single one of you stupid mother fuckers defending this...


Which would you rather have happen, you get raped, or go to prison for 14 years(and probably get raped while you are there) and die there...

Sign me up for the fucking rape. Don't even act like what happened to her was worse than what happened to him...and she is a big pat of the reason that it happened to him.

She got fucked an hour of her life or so in which she was involuntarily forced to commit an otherwise natural and pleasurable act...the poor man she wronged spent his entire adult life in prison treated as a criminal, and then he died...because she identified the wrong fucking guy. If she hadn't done that...he wouldn't have gone to prison.


Yes I find fault with the justice system, I find fault with the prosecutors...but absolving her of her role in this because she got fucked against her will is flat out stupidity and taking total leave of logic and any true sense of justice.


It's unfortunate that she got raped...but it's even more unfortunate that because she got raped she commited a far greater injustice than what was done to her.



Just the fact that she talked about the power she had as the actual rapist was getting convicted tells you where her mind is at...she's an idiot. That doesn't soumd someone overly concerned with her first wrong ID...that sounds like someone completely absorbed with revenge...and rubbing in the fact that she has the upperhand.


This bitch was going to send someone to prison because she got raped, and this poor bastard was her victim...simple as that.




All this proves to me is that rape laws and the power women weild with nothing more than a simple accusation are way out of synch with the actual severity of the crime...

All some crazed bitch has to do is say some guy raped her and that poor bastards life is ruined...regardless of whether not he's convicted.


I'm sorry but getting fucked isn't by any stretch comparable to prison time...where you are also likely to get fucked.

[Mr. Peabody]

You are the moron and amazingly tolerant of violent crime.

She's a racist. She claims that Tim Cole looks like Johnson because both are black men. Tim Cole looks nothing like Johnson.

She lied at the trial when she said she was sure that Tim Cole did it, when in fact she admits that she only thinks he might have done it.

She's not necessarily lying. By the time of trial, her mind may have "confirmed" that it was Cole from having repeatedly seen his face (photo lineup, actual lineup, news reports, etc.). It happens all the time and it's not because the witness is lying. They really believe that the person they see in the court room was the perpetrator.

[whottt]

She's not necessarily lying. By the time of trial, her mind may have "confirmed" that it was Cole from having repeatedly seen his face (photo lineup, actual lineup, news reports, etc.). It happens all the time and it's not because the witness is lying. They really believe that the person they see in the court room was the perpetrator.


yeah well a schitzophrenic really believes he's supposed to go and kill the people the voices in his head are telling him to kill...


Murderers really believe the people they murder deserve to die...

Men that beat their wives and kids really believe they deserve it....


Your point?


She id'ed the wrong guy. Period.


She's more of a criminal than she is a victim...and what her stupidity did to this man was a greater injustice than any simple rape.

[SpursFanFirst]

Wow, a couple of people on here need to get a grip.
I'm not saying that what that man went through wasn't horrible, and I hate that he had to spend the last years of his life in prison.

But a woman was RAPED.
Sex may be pleasurable in most instances, but having a stranger take her against her will and probably even threaten her life....it's hardly a moment most dreams are made of.

Nice try, Whottt.

[Galileo]

I'm with Galileo...acting like this bitch didn't have a ton to do with this man's false imprisonment and subsequent death is just plain old stupid.

What, because she was raped it's ok for her to identify the wrong guy and send him to prison for life?

Stupid fucking logic...her being raped isn't an excuse for making the wrong ID and sending this poor batard to prison.

She said the wrong guy raped her.....seeing as how the penalty for that crime is a pretty severe one, perhaps she should have made sure she was id'ing the right guy.



I want to ask every single one of you stupid mother fuckers defending this...


Which would you rather have happen, you get raped, or go to prison for 14 years(and probably get raped while you are there) and die there...

Sign me up for the fucking rape. Don't even act like what happened to her was worse than what happened to him...and she is a big pat of the reason that it happened to him.

She got fucked an hour of her life or so in which she was involuntarily forced to commit an otherwise natural and pleasurable act...the poor man she wronged spent his entire adult life in prison treated as a criminal, and then he died...because she identified the wrong fucking guy. If she hadn't done that...he wouldn't have gone to prison.


Yes I find fault with the justice system, I find fault with the prosecutors...but absolving her of her role in this because she got fucked against her will is flat out stupidity and taking total leave of logic and any true sense of justice.


It's unfortunate that she got raped...but it's even more unfortunate that because she got raped she commited a far greater injustice than what was done to her.



Just the fact that she talked about the power she had as the actual rapist was getting convicted tells you where her mind is at...she's an idiot. That doesn't soumd someone overly concerned with her first wrong ID...that sounds like someone completely absorbed with revenge...and rubbing in the fact that she has the upperhand.


This bitch was going to send someone to prison because she got raped, and this poor bastard was her victim...simple as that.




All this proves to me is that rape laws and the power women weild with nothing more than a simple accusation are way out of synch with the actual severity of the crime...

All some crazed bitch has to do is say some guy raped her and that poor bastards life is ruined...regardless of whether not he's convicted.


I'm sorry but getting fucked isn't by any stretch comparable to prison time...where you are also likely to get fucked.

you are dead on.

Getting raped by the "criminal justice system" is much worse than getting raped.

Another factor in this is what happens to your family. If someone in yor family gets raped, at least you get sympathy and often a lot of money is raised for crime victims.

But when you get raped by the "criminal justice system", you get no sympathy at all, only shame.

If someone in your family gets murdered, you can collect life insurance.

If someone in your family gets murdered by the "criminal justice system", you get nothing.

btw - has anyone looked at the video:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html

Take a quick look at how different Cole and Johnson look.

Only a liar would claim that they are certain that Cole is Johnson.

[Rogue]

Kobe is still out of jail though he has definitely commited a rape.

[Galileo]

She's not necessarily lying. By the time of trial, her mind may have "confirmed" that it was Cole from having repeatedly seen his face (photo lineup, actual lineup, news reports, etc.). It happens all the time and it's not because the witness is lying. They really believe that the person they see in the court room was the perpetrator.

No, she said on the video that when she picked the guy out of the lineup she said "I think its him".

She is obligated to tell that to the jury.

Also, when you give eyewitness testimony, you are supposed to testify about what you saw, not about your opinions of newspaper articles.

The fact is she was not certain that Cole did it, and she lied when she told that to the jury.

What happens all the time is witnesses who lie about their level of certainty.

[Mr. Peabody]

yeah well a schitzophrenic really believes he's supposed to go and kill the people the voices in his head are telling him to kill...


Which is why you can plea not guilty by reason of insanity

[Mr. Peabody]

No, she said on the video that when she picked the guy out of the lineup she said "I think its him".

She is obligated to tell that to the jury.

She's not obligated to tell the jury anything. The state has the burden of proof, but there's nothing in the law that says she has to testify or what her testimony needs to consist of. Plus, if his defense attorney worked up the case at all, I'm sure he would have asked her about the prior inconsistent statement.



Also, when you give eyewitness testimony, you are supposed to testify about what you saw, not about your opinions of newspaper articles.

How is asking, "how certain are you that it was __________ who raped you that night?" asking about her opinion of a newspaper article?


The fact is she was not certain that Cole did it, and she lied when she told that to the jury.

Again, you can disagree with me on this point, but I think that many people testify to a mistaken belief and are absolutely convinced of its certainty. I don't think they are lying, I think it's simple "memory misattribution," as another poster alluded to.

[whottt]

Wow, a couple of people on here need to get a grip.
I'm not saying that what that man went through wasn't horrible, and I hate that he had to spend the last years of his life in prison.

But a woman was RAPED.
Sex may be pleasurable in most instances, but having a stranger take her against her will and probably even threaten her life....it's hardly a moment most dreams are made of.

Nice try, Whottt.



No, you need to get a grip if you thinking getting ripped is somehow worse or in any way equivalent to an innocent spending all of his adult life in prison and dying there. If it makes you feel any better, he was probably raped too...


Tell you waht...I'll go out and fuck the ugliest girl I can find, and I won't use any protection, which means I will be doing it under the threat of death...

and you? You go commit a crime that will cause you to spend the rest of your life in prison, UNTIL YOU DIE...

And let's compare notes and see who got the better end of that deal.


I've known girls that had rape fantasies, wanted you to tear their clothes off and and fuck the shit out of them...


I've never met anyone that had a fantasy about spending all of their adult life in prison for a crime they didn't commit, and then dying there...

Have you?



There's absolutely no comprison between what happened to her and what happened to him...she walked away from what was done to her...he didn't.

And you know what? That whole life in prison thing was probably at least as much against his will as her being raped was against hers.


I'm more concerned with what happened to him than what happened to her...frankly I could give two shits about the fact that she was raped knowing that she sent an innocent and good man to prison for his entire adult life.....because she's fucking ignorant.

[whottt]

Which is why you can plea not guilty by reason of insanity

Won't mean he's not a murderer..no matter how crazy he is.


Same principle applies here...this bitch sent an innocent man to prison for all of his adult life until he died. Period.

[Mr. Peabody]

btw - has anyone looked at the video:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html

Take a quick look at how different Cole and Johnson look.

Only a liar would claim that they are certain that Cole is Johnson.

What about a situation where immediately after the rape, the police show her a photo of Cole in a photo lineup. Then she sees him again in a lineup at the jail. Then, after saying, I think it's him (because she recognizes his face, maybe from campus), the police make an arrest. Then, the investigator starts talking to her about the case and confirming that they have the right man. Then she repeatedly sees his photo in the news, in the paper, etc. She sees his photo time and time again as the prosecutor prepares the case for trial.

She goes to trial and sees him at the defense table. At the beginning of trial, she sees him referred to as the defendant. The prosecutor, since he has to go first, calls his witnesses, saving her for last. She's waiting outside in the hall next to other officers and detectives who are about to go up and present their evidence linking the defendant to the offense.

She finally gets up to take the stand and once again, sees the defendant at the defense table. The prosecutor goes through her day, detail by detail, ending with the rape. As she goes through each detail, she's looking at the jury but still sees the defendant, in her periphery, sitting at the defense table.

The prosecutor then asks her to identify her attacker and she looks over to the defense table and sees this man, this face that she's now seen dozens, if not hundreds, of times in photos, in person, on TV, in court and in her mind. She points to the defendant. The prosecutor asks her, "Ms. _______ how certain are you that the attacker that night was Mr. __________?" and again, she has all of these instances where she's seen this face to draw from and she responds "I'm absolutely certain." It happens all the time.

[Galileo]

What about a situation where immediately after the rape, the police show her a photo of Cole in a photo lineup. Then she sees him again in a lineup at the jail. Then, after saying, I think it's him (because she recognizes his face, maybe from campus), the police make an arrest. Then, the investigator starts talking to her about the case and confirming that they have the right man. Then she repeatedly sees his photo in the news, in the paper, etc. She sees his photo time and time again as the prosecutor prepares the case for trial.

She goes to trial and sees him at the defense table. At the beginning of trial, she sees him referred to as the defendant. The prosecutor, since he has to go first, calls his witnesses, saving her for last. She's waiting outside in the hall next to other officers and detectives who are about to go up and present their evidence linking the defendant to the offense.

She finally gets up to take the stand and once again, sees the defendant at the defense table. The prosecutor goes through her day, detail by detail, ending with the rape. As she goes through each detail, she's looking at the jury but still sees the defendant, in her periphery, sitting at the defense table.

The prosecutor then asks her to identify her attacker and she looks over to the defense table and sees this man, this face that she's now seen dozens, if not hundreds, of times in photos, in person, on TV, in court and in her mind. She points to the defendant. The prosecutor asks her, "Ms. _______ how certain are you that the attacker that night was Mr. __________?" and again, she has all of these instances to where she's seen this face to draw from and she responds "I'm absolutely certain." It happens all the time.

People lie on the witness stand all the time, I agree.

The bitch said she was certain that Cole did it, a boldfaced lie. She only picked Cole because he looked more like the rapist than the other five people in the lineup.

The prosecutor no doubt coached her on how to lie to the jury and get away with it, so he he should be locked up as well and gang raped by big daddy.

[Mr. Peabody]

Won't mean he's not a murderer..no matter how crazy he is.


Well, if by "murderer," you mean "guilty of murder," then you are mistaken.


Art. 46C.155. FINDING OF NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY CONSIDERED ACQUITTAL. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b)(expunction), a defendant who is found not guilty by reason of insanity stands acquitted of the offense charged and may not be considered a person charged with an offense.

[Galileo]

She's not obligated to tell the jury anything. The state has the burden of proof, but there's nothing in the law that says she has to testify or what her testimony needs to consist of. Plus, if his defense attorney worked up the case at all, I'm sure he would have asked her about the prior inconsistent statement.



How is asking, "how certain are you that it was __________ who raped you that night?" asking about her opinion of a newspaper article?



Again, you can disagree with me on this point, but I think that many people testify to a mistaken belief and are absolutely convinced of its certainty. I don't think they are lying, I think it's simple "memory misattribution," as another poster alluded to.

If she only "thinks" that this guy looks the most like the rapist, then she is not CERTAIN that he is the rapist.

She wasn't certain Cole did it and lied on the stand when she said she was certain.

[Winehole23]

She wasn't certain Cole did it and lied on the stand when she said she was certain.I wish I could be as certain of anything as you are of this.

Enjoy your vindictive rectitude, G. Hopefully, you'll find a little something left over for the shitty process that's also to blame here.

It's party time for me. :jekka


RIP, Timothy Cole.

[DannyT]

dude was a true gangsta the way he held it down for himself though. I mean anyone would have given up and said ok give me the plea and let me walk...but the man knew he was innocent and said the books will write the when all is said and done.

RIP

[Galileo]

I have been through something like Tim Cole.

In 2003, I walked into a bar. 5 minutes later 3 cops came in and claimed they had a video tape of me stealing $50 from the bar. They cops spent two hours trying to get me to confess. During that time I showed the cops my wallet, which had $300 dollars in it, plus credit cards & debit cards, and I showed the cops a $4200 paycheck I had just received.

The cops continually said they were "absolutley certain" that I was on the videotape, but they would not show me the tape. I observed the 3 cops and a 4th cop, plus 4 bar staff people watching the video. The cops would go back and forth from where I was to where they were watching the video.

Since the cops wouldn't let me see the video, I asked them about some specific details.

The top of my head is very distinctive because I have a spot of thinning hair on the very top, sort of like Ginobili. I am not bald there, there is hair there, but it is so thin that you can see down to the scalp, just like with Ginobili.

The cops refused to acknowledge whether the person on the video had this feature.

So I was issued a ticket for theft, which could have cost me my job as I was a Loan Officer.

I hired a lawyer for $5000 and a few months later I got the video which clearly showed a different person stealing the $50, in the exact same location where I was standing while the cops were interrogating me. (which made it easier to see the two different people)

So I asked my lawyer if he could show the video to the prosecutor and get the charges dropped. The lawyer got back to me and said the prosecutor would probably drop the charges since I wasn't on the video.

But then the prosecutor changed his mind. He said he has 2 witnesses who also saw me in the bar at the time of the theft. They said they were certain. My lawyer explained to me that the witnesses really saw the guy in the video in the bar, not me.

So anyways, this case dragged on until 2005, and my legal fees were up tp about $12,000. Finally, I demanded that my lawyer file a speedy trial motion which I had been asking him to do.

A trial was scheduled, so I spent another $5000 for trial preparation. Then, just as the trial began, the prosecutor moved to dismiss the charges.

It is not believable that all these people could make a "mistake" about me and this video. I took still photos of the video and showed them around to people at work, friends, and 100s of random people on the street, and I have never met a single person who thought the guy on the video was me.

Yet somehow, 8 people, 4 cops and 4 bar staff all made a "mistake".

Sure they did.

Wednesday, April 27, 2005
Political Prosecution in Wisconsin?
The things one finds on Usenet newsgroups! Those dinosaurs of the information age sometimes reveal nuggets of useful and interesting information, sticking up like bones in the LaBrea Tar Pits.

My most recent discovery came on alt.politics.libertarian, where there were two postings about the news that theft charges against a Dane County libertarian activist were dropped.

This may not seem newsworthy to most. The amount of the alleged theft was only $50. But the person arrested was, at the time, spearheading a recall campaign against Wisconsin's Democratic governor. Dane County is well-known as a Democratic stronghold. (It includes the state capital, Madison, and the University of Wisconsin's principal campus.) The arrest was a transparent effort to silence a political dissident. This should come as no surprise. Despite its Progressive traditions, Wisconsin is the home of Senator Russ Feingold, whose name appears on legislation he sponsored (though he probably did not read it), which is designed to suppress political speech.

Here's what was reported in The Capital Times, a Madison daily:


A theft charge against Libertarian Party leader Rolf Lindgren of Middleton were dropped today, but Lindgren remains unhappy about the prosecution of the case.

Lindgren was charged with stealing an apron, apparently with tips from a waiter in it, from the Irish Waters bar and restaurant in November 2003.

The case was scheduled for jury selection today and trial on Wednesday, but Assistant District Attorney Jay Mimier moved to dismiss the case at the last moment, a move that did not placate Lindgren.

After Dane County Circuit Judge David Flanagan ordered the case dismissed, Lindgren spoke up and said: "The prosecutor in this case has known since the beginning of this case that I didn't commit this crime. I'd like you to ask the prosecutor when he realized that I didn't commit this crime."

Lindgren also insisted that the government pay his legal fees, which had added up to thousands of dollars over the past year and a half.

A news release issued on Lindgren's behalf through the Libertarian Party of Dane County reveals why this was a political prosecution:

Loan Officer Rolf Lindgren won his criminal case today in Dane County court. This morning, just before jury selection was to begin, Prosecutor Jay Mimier asked to dismiss the charge against Lindgren. Lindgren had been charged with stealing $50 from the Irish Waters Restaurant/Tavern in November, 2003.

The Lindgren team and the state have a video of a different person stealing the $50.


* * *


The case began on November 26, 2003, with the false-arrest of Rolf Lindgren, who was subjected to a brutal, two-hour interrogation. Just two days earlier, on November 24, 2003, Lindgren had filed papers with the State Elections Board regarding the Recall of Governor Jim Doyle. Because of the arrest, the Doyle Recall did not move forward.

The arrest occurred the night before Rolf Lindgren's scheduled on-camera interview for the documentary movie 'A Remarkable Man', a movie about the life of Ed Thompson. Because of the arrest, the movie interview was postponed.

The arresting officer, Craig Knutson, had approached Rolf Lindgren earlier in the year, in February, 2003, at the Harbor Athletic Club in Middleton. Knutson asked Lindgren dozens of questions about what the Libertarian Party believed in. The person who claimed to be a victim in the case, former Irish Waters waitress Vanessa Wheaton, waited on customer Lindgren in October, 2003. Lindgren was wearing a RecallDoyle.com T-shirt that evening. Lindgren testified under oath regarding the case in October, 2004. No state witness has testified under oath.

At the hearing this morning, Rolf Lindgren asked Judge Flanagan for the state to pay Lindgren's legal fees which are now several thousand dollars. The state has known since day-one that Lindgren did not commit this crime. The state intentionally ran up Lindgren's legal fees during the past 17 months.

Judge Flanagan denied Lindgren's request without giving a reason. Judge Flanagan said it was "unusual" for a defendant to speak to him directly in court. A potential false-arrest lawsuit is under consideration.

We like to believe the myth that this sort of thing only happens in banana republics. This isn't Kyrgyzstan, after all, it's the United States -- it's Wisconsin, home of Fighting Bob LaFollette!

If Wisconsin political activists are not safe from government harassment and threats against their lives and liberties, neither are political activists in Virginia, Wyoming, or Arkansas. Stories like this are simple reminders of how we must remain vigilant against abuses of government power everywhere and always.

Posted by Rick Sincere at 5:31:00 PM

Labels: libertarians, Wisconsin


6 comments:
Anonymous said...
TRIAL OF ROLF LINDGREN

your tax dollars at work

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 8:30 A.M., Madison City County Building, Judge Flanagan

I was accused of stealing $50 back in 2003. I have a video tape of someone else stealing the $50, so I have a good case.

They have been trying to get me to plea bargain. Legal fees now above $10,000. I demand a trial.

Please attend. I appreciate your moral support. Learn about our court system.

Rolf 608-279-5889 www.RolfLindgren.com

PS - I apologize for not being as active with the Libertarian Party during the past year. RL

Other trials:

The War upon Galileo
http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/astronomy/war.html

9:17 AM, April 28, 2005
Galileo said...
TRIAL OF ROLF LINDGREN - RESULTS

[warning - this email contains some profanity]

My trial was scheduled to begin in Madison on February 28. I was accused of stealing $50 at the Irish Waters in 2003. Since I have photos of someone else stealing the $50, I expected to win. The photos are still photos from a CD turned over to me during the discovery process.

When I got to the courthouse, I found that 15 jury trials were scheduled at 8:30 a.m. in front of Judge Flanagan. My case was the oldest and deserved priority. Judge Flanagan, however, had the trial rescheduled without explanation; to July 18.

I asked prosecuting attorney Jay Mimier, why the State was continually delaying my trial. In the hallway outside the courtroom, in the presence of many people, Mimier yelled at me; "Horseshit!"

Then I was called into a conference room. Mimier tried to scare me into another plea bargain. I showed Mimier photos of the person who stole the $50. I said; "How many times have I told you I will not plea bargain. I demand a trial."

After I left the City-County Building, I examined the photos of the person who stole the $50 more closely.

I compared a still frame from 48 minutes, 5 seconds, to a still frame from 48 minutes, 6 seconds. Between frames, the guy takes one step towards the camera. I compared the size of the head to the width of his jacket.

The head, from the chin to the top of the head, in the 5-second frame measures 16/32 inch.

The head, from the chin to the top of the head, in the 6-second frame measures 21/32 inch.

The length of the head increases by 31%. You can see the difference with the naked eye.

The width of the jacket collar, from point-to-point, in the 5-second frame measures 9/8 inch.

The width of the jacket collar, from point-to-point, in the 6-second frame measures 10/8 inch.

The width of the jacket increases by 11%. Hmmm.

The body and clothing of the guy in the 6-second frame compared to the guy in the 5-second frame, look exactly the same.

The face of the guy in the 6-second frame compared to the face of the guy in the 5-second frame, look different.

Tests will be conducted to determine how this could happen on a digital CD, created by the Irish Waters and provided to police for the prosecution of Rolf Lindgren.

Photos provided for viewing upon request.

Sincerely,

Rolf Lindgren 608-279-5889 608-824-0660 (fax) [email protected]

www.RolfLindgren.com www.CaucusScandal.com www.RecallDoyle.com

Appendix A:

Amendment VI of the U.S. Constitution

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Appendix B:

Synopsis of Case

On October 28, 2003, my friend Mark and I went to the Irish Waters to watch a San Antonio Spurs game. I brought www.RecallDoyle.com T-Shirts, bumper stickers and news clippings.

On November 26, 2003, I went back to the Irish Waters to invite an acquaintance to a Libertarian meeting. Five minutes later, three police officers came into the Irish Waters, surrounded me, and said they had a video of me stealing $50. I was subjected to a brutal, 2-hour psychological interrogation. The police lied. They do not have a video of me stealing $50. I testified under oath on October, 2004, regarding this incident. If anyone reading this knows anyone who can provide me legal assistance in pursuing legal actions against the guilty parties, please let me know.

Appendix C:

Text of email received by me on November 19, 2003

Subject: recall response

Dear asshole,
Do you fuckers really think you're going to steal another election? Fuck you. Fuck your mother. Fuck your children and any one else associated with your fucked up ideas. Suck my dick you jerk off. If I see one of of your assholes passing a recall petition, I'm going to kick him in the balls and rip up the petition. If you're looking for confrontation you're going to get it. This is not a threat, this is a promise.
Patrick McCormack
Milwaukee

Appendix D:

Link to Tim Kelley's November 16, 2003, Sunday Opinion column in the Wisconsin State Journal

Recall Doyle?: http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=wsj:2003:11:16:288295:OPINION

9:23 AM, April 28, 2005
Anonymous said...
Other Recent 3rd Party Suppression Lead by Democrats in Wisconsin

From: http://votenader.org/ballot_access/wisconsin/

Ballot Access History

On the Ballot for Good
September 30, 2004 -The Supreme Court of Wisconsin unanimously ruled to put Nader/Camejo on the ballot Thursday putting an end to the Democrats' dirty tricks campaign against Nader/Camejo in Wisconsin. Thank you to attorney Robert Bernhoft who did an exceptional job on this case. Thanks to all the folks who made it out early in the morning to picket in front of the Capitol and come to the hearing.

###
posted by: Friends_of_Galileo

11:08 AM, April 28, 2005
Anonymous said...
Are all Libertarians crazy? Does anyone really believe there is a conspiracy involving the Madison police department, the Governor's office, the County DA office?

This allegation makes no damn sense! Because charges were dropped, they say it must be a plot? Is that what passes for logic among Libertarians?

2:13 PM, April 28, 2005
Anonymous said...
Oh, I forgot. The judge is in on the conspiracy, too!

2:15 PM, April 28, 2005
Brad Spangler said...
"Are all Libertarians crazy?" - Aninymous

Are all of you who like the idea of prosecuting an innocent man to gutless to sign your names?

5:59 AM, May 04, 2005

http://ricksincerethoughts.blogspot.com/2005/04/political-prosecution-in-wisconsin.html

[SpursFanFirst]

No, you need to get a grip if you thinking getting ripped is somehow worse or in any way equivalent to an innocent spending all of his adult life in prison and dying there. If it makes you feel any better, he was probably raped too...


Tell you waht...I'll go out and fuck the ugliest girl I can find, and I won't use any protection, which means I will be doing it under the threat of death...

and you? You go commit a crime that will cause you to spend the rest of your life in prison, UNTIL YOU DIE...

And let's compare notes and see who got the better end of that deal.


I've known girls that had rape fantasies, wanted you to tear their clothes off and and fuck the shit out of them...


I've never met anyone that had a fantasy about spending all of their adult life in prison for a crime they didn't commit, and then dying there...

Have you?



There's absolutely no comprison between what happened to her and what happened to him...she walked away from what was done to her...he didn't.

And you know what? That whole life in prison thing was probably at least as much against his will as her being raped was against hers.


I'm more concerned with what happened to him than what happened to her...frankly I could give two shits about the fact that she was raped knowing that she sent an innocent and good man to prison for his entire adult life.....because she's fucking ignorant.

You forgot to add that she probably asked to be raped. :rolleyes

[whottt]

You forgot to add that she probably asked to be raped. :rolleyes

I'm sure it was a horrific experience...I bet she'll never forget the guys face. :rollfuckingeyes



No criminal justice system in the history of man will work properly if people are too fucking stupid to identify the right person. I'm sorry this chick is incomparably stupid and because of that an innocent man had his entire adult life stolen from him and was treated as a criminal until death...

I truly am.

But there is something seriously wrong with you if you think what happened to her is worse than what happened to him.

He's the completely innocent person in all of this. He's also the one that suffered the most.

Thank god the rapist actually confessed to his crime...because if it was left up to her to identify the rapist, it would have never gotten done...she's too fucking stupid.

[mavs>spurs2]

I agree with Whottt, it's pretty fucked up what happened to that guy. He basically got locked up for life just for fun, he was completely innocent. How can you send someone to jail for life without being 100% sure?

[SpursFanFirst]

I'm sure it was a horrific experience...I bet she'll never forget the guys face. :rollfuckingeyes



No criminal justice system in the history of man will work properly if people are too fucking stupid to identify the right person. I'm sorry this chick is incomparably stupid and because of that an innocent man had his entire adult life stolen from him and was treated as a criminal until death...

I truly am.

But there is something seriously wrong with you if you think what happened to her is worse than what happened to him.

He's the completely innocent person in all of this. He's also the one that suffered the most.

Thank god the rapist actually confessed to his crime...because if it was left up to her to identify the rapist, it would have never gotten done...she's too fucking stupid.

As I've said a few times here, what happened to this man is awful, but what happened to her was no cakewalk either.
And unless you've been in a situation where you've been violated in any way, you really have no room to judge how she handled her situation.

[Bartleby]

I agree with Whottt, it's pretty fucked up what happened to that guy. He basically got locked up for life just for fun, he was completely innocent. How can you send someone to jail for life without being 100% sure?

To me, the bigger question is how you can condemn somebody to be executed without being 100% sure.

[Spurminator]

It's very unfortunate that she picked the wrong guy. Compounding a rape with the fact that you helped sentence an innocent man to prison for the rest of his life cannot be easy to live with.

But this was West Texas in the mid-80's, and it was a white woman raped by a black man. There's no doubt in my mind that her certainty about Cole raping her was partly brought on by coersion.

I wish there was more accountability for the prosecutors and investigators who helped convict innocent people. I see none of their names in this article. They fucked up too, and they don't have the excuse of being recent rape victims who might not be completely capable of sound thought.

[Spurminator]

I agree with Whottt, it's pretty fucked up what happened to that guy. He basically got locked up for life just for fun, he was completely innocent. How can you send someone to jail for life without being 100% sure?


"It's one of these men, honey. You just tell us which one. That one? You think? Then it's probably him. You can't be expected to be certain, you were under a lot of trauma. We got to lock this fucker up so he can't do this to anyone else. We need you to be strong. Be confident. This ###### raped you, and he'll rape others if we don't put his ass away. We need your help."

[Galileo]

"It's one of these men, honey. You just tell us which one. That one? You think? Then it's probably him. You can't be expected to be certain, you were under a lot of trauma. We got to lock this fucker up so he can't do this to anyone else. We need you to be strong. Be confident. This ###### raped you, and he'll rape others if we don't put his ass away. We need your help."

Good point.

Johnson went on to rape four more women. The Cole defense team brought Johnson to the attention of the authorities during the time of the trial, but were ignored. Those who ignored the Cole defense team should be held accountable for their actions.

[whottt]

As I've said a few times here, what happened to this man is awful, but what happened to her was no cakewalk either.
And unless you've been in a situation where you've been violated in any way, you really have no room to judge how she handled her situation.

Oh yes I do have room to judge her...because she sent an innocent man to his death. I don't give a fuck what her excuse was...


The crime she commited was worse than the rape.


Far worse.


The worst crime of them all is when an innocent man goes to prison.


That is a complete total failure of our justice system.

[whottt]

It's very unfortunate that she picked the wrong guy.

It's more than just unfortunate...it's the absolute worst crime of them all.



Compounding a rape with the fact that you helped sentence an innocent man to prison for the rest of his life cannot be easy to live with.

Yeah? I'd still rather be her than the guy she wrongly sent to prison..the innocent man whose entire life she turned into a skidmark.



But this was West Texas in the mid-80's, and it was a white woman raped by a black man. There's no doubt in my mind that her certainty about Cole raping her was partly brought on by coersion.

I wish there was more accountability for the prosecutors and investigators who helped convict innocent people. I see none of their names in this article. They fucked up too, and they don't have the excuse of being recent rape victims who might not be completely capable of sound thought.


Without a doubt the system failed Tim Cole and many others need to be held accountable, legally...but that doesn't absolve her of the fact that she said the wrong guy raped her. And it wasn't her job to come up with suspects, it was her job to ID the right guy.

No one, no one was responsible for making that ID other than her, and the result was the death, wrongful imprisonment, and decades long torment of a completely innocent man.

I am sorry but she doesn't get a free pass just because she was raped.


Many criminals also have traumatic experiences in their past...last I checked, that isn't a good excuse for commiting a crime, and what this woman did was crimina. It is just about the most horrific criminal act that can be commited, the death and imprisonment of an innocent man.


IT's not just unfortunate...it's a complete fucking outrage,.


The crime she was an accessory too was the worst one commited in this entire case. It's not even close.


Unfortunatley my ass...her rape was unfortunate, the false imprisonment and death of a completely innocent man is the truly horrific crime commited here...and it couldn't have been commited without her complicity.

[jochhejaam]

To me, the bigger question is how you can condemn somebody to be executed without being 100% sure.



Conviction was based on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".
Following is the legal definition of that phrase:

The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reasonable+Doubt

Seemed to me that based on the totality of the evidence presented, there should have been reasonable doubt in this case.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

wow... Whottt on the wrong side of yet another argument... SHOCKING!

[LnGrrrR]

You know, there should be a law where the government gives you back your money if they force you to hire a lawyer only to eventually dismiss the charges.

[Spurminator]

It's more than just unfortunate...it's the absolute worst crime of them all.

Yeah? I'd still rather be her than the guy she wrongly sent to prison..the innocent man whose entire life she turned into a skidmark.

Without a doubt the system failed Tim Cole and many others need to be held accountable, legally...but that doesn't absolve her of the fact that she said the wrong guy raped her. And it wasn't her job to come up with suspects, it was her job to ID the right guy.

No one, no one was responsible for making that ID other than her, and the result was the death, wrongful imprisonment, and decades long torment of a completely innocent man.

I am sorry but she doesn't get a free pass just because she was raped.

Many criminals also have traumatic experiences in their past...last I checked, that isn't a good excuse for commiting a crime, and what this woman did was crimina. It is just about the most horrific criminal act that can be commited, the death and imprisonment of an innocent man.

IT's not just unfortunate...it's a complete fucking outrage,.

The crime she was an accessory too was the worst one commited in this entire case. It's not even close.

Unfortunatley my ass...her rape was unfortunate, the false imprisonment and death of a completely innocent man is the truly horrific crime commited here...and it couldn't have been commited without her complicity.

I never said she should be absolved, but the primary onus is on the authorities who, understanding the emotional trauma a rape victim has gone through and the possibility that her judgment may not be 100% sound, should have explored all of the evidence instead of taking her word as gospel. They are more responsible than she is.

[Supergirl]

Texas justice at work. Wrong man in prison, dies in prison, then found innocent. Very nice. /sarcasm

[SpursFanFirst]

Gitmo's youngest inmate: Terrorist or confused kid?
Omar Khadr, the youngest inmate and only Westerner held at Guantanamo Bay, is charged in the 2002 death of a U.S. soldier. President Obama's order to close the detention facility at Gitmo, however, has left his case in limbo. Like the other 245 Gitmo detainees, Khadr, 22, could be tried in the U.S. and face a life sentence. Or, as a Canadian citizen, he may be sent back to Canada, where he could avoid trial and be set free.

Whottt would say he'd rather be the dead guy.
Do you KNOW what they do to detainees at Gitmo?
It's so unfair!

[whottt]

I never said she should be absolved, but the primary onus is on the authorities who, understanding the emotional trauma a rape victim has gone through and the possibility that her judgment may not be 100% sound, should have explored all of the evidence instead of taking her word as gospel. They are more responsible than she is.

True, everyone knows women are stupid and emotionally unstable. How dare they give her positive ID any credence. Best to make that decsion for her.


And how dare they not just put the actual perpetrator in the lineup for her to ID. What sort of games are these guys playing?

I mean they have a job to catch criminals, how dare they actually produce suspects? Idiots.




I'm solld, you guys have convinced me.

A positive ID from a rape victim is going to mean jack shit to me if I am ever on a jury trial. I won't even consider it relevant, even if she's under oath, and swearing up and down that's the guy who raped her, no matter how much empathy I may have for the crime that was commited against her. I'll remember that she's traumatized and could be perjuring herself because of that.



After all, even if she's swearing under oath that she was raped by a person and is identifying the rapist, she could be emotionally unstable and therefore a complete fucking idiot, with no idea who actually raped her, but is still going to make a positive ID. I mean after all, she is a woman, they are unreliable to begin with and you know how they get after they get raped.

Point made and excuse understood.


It's unfortunate this completely innocent man was imprisoned and died because she falsely ID'ed him multiple times and including under oath, but hey, let's not lose sight of the big picture here, she was raped! And that's what really matters.

Everything else is secondary, including this man's entire life.

[whottt]

Whottt would say he'd rather be the dead guy.
Do you KNOW what they do to detainees at Gitmo?
It's so unfair!

1. You need to learn the difference between a criminal act and a war.

2. You voted for Bush in 2004, how dare you bring this up?



What you don't seem to realize is that when this bitch was speaking to the actual rapist...

She didn't mention a single fucking word about the innocent man she sent to his death...all she was talking about was finally getting the guy who raped her.

She said she'd work on forgiving him, when the rapist has clearly repented by cofessing to his crime...

Work on forgiving him? This bitch needs to be in line right with him on that whole asking for forgiveness thing...and she needs to learn how to forgive real quick seeing as how she commited an act that is exponentially worse than rape. It's called false imprisonment, perjury, and murder.


Death, not rape, is the worst thing you can do to another person. Do you not understand this or what?



Let me make this clear to you just so you understand how far apart we are on this stupid fucking ho...


I hope she gets dry cornholed against her will all day every day for eternity, in hell. Until the first words out of her mouth to anyone that raped her being caught are about the man she sent to his death, and not about her stupid ass having the power(because he confessed of his own free will).

I hope his family comes to their senses and sues this fucking bitch penniless to where she wishes she was dead every day for the rest of her life.


To you it may be a big deal...to me it will merely be "unfortunate". I mean atfer all...HE DIED.

[whottt]

By the way...the completely incompetent US justice system reminds me of cars...


Stupid justice system gives credence to victim ID's of accused perpetrators...and those stupid cars go actually go where the drivers tell them to. What we need is a justice system that totally ignores victim ID's...and cars that don't go where drivers drive them.

[whottt]

And how brave is this incredibly strong woman...after the DNA evidence clears Tim Cole's name, after the rapist confesses to the crime, after the family asks her for help, she's right there fighting to get his name cleared, inspite of the whole sending the guy to prison thing.

Heroic.


Yes the justice system failed, yes prosecutors place too much emphasis on getting conviction and not assessing actual guilt, ditto for police...

And whoever ignored the rapists confession letters needs to go to prison.

But the bottom line is that this woman positively ID'd an innocent man as a rapist. She did it multiple times, she did it under oath, she did it knowing full well that the man was going to prison for rape. There is no way she could have been positive that this was the man that raped her, because he was not the man who raped her, yet she did it anyway.


Pray that if you are ever suspected of a crime that you don't have an idiot like this stupid fucking bitch playing a role in deciding your fate. Because if you suddenly find yourself in front of a jury, with a person like this as your accuser, your entire life is about to turn into a big pile of shit. And no justice system in the world will protect you(except for perhaps an Islamic one, which I have newfound respect for after this case).



She was going to send someone to prison because she got raped...period. And you can hear it in the words she spoke to that rapist. Someone was going to pay, whether they were actually the person that raped her or not. Tim Cole was just "unfortunately" in the wrong place at the wrong time....there was something about him she just didn't like, and she "had the power".


Fuck her.


She's more of a criminal than the actual 4 time rapist is...and she's less repentant as well. And she's also partially responsible for those other rapes.


And she doesn't really care either...if she did the first words out of her mouth to the rapist would have been about the innocent man who died...and not her, "having the power".

[whottt]

It's better for the guilty to go free than for the innnocent to be wrongly imprisoned. Always. Without fail. 100% of the time.

It is far more than simply "unfortunate" when an innocent person goes to prison, it completely defeats the purpose of a court and prison system.

Always better for the guilty to go free than for the innocent to go to prison.

There is no way in hell this woman was 100% certain that Tim Cole was the man who raped her.

[Winehole23]

It is far more than simply "unfortunate" when an innocent person goes to prison, it completely defeats the purpose of a court and prison system. How much more so then for false executions?


There is no way in hell this woman was 100% certain that Tim Cole was the man who raped her.
You can't possibly know this. You just assume it.

[MannyIsGod]

It's better for the guilty to go free than for the innnocent to be wrongly imprisoned. Always. Without fail. 100% of the time.

It is far more than simply "unfortunate" when an innocent person goes to prison, it completely defeats the purpose of a court and prison system.

Always better for the guilty to go free than for the innocent to go to prison.

There is no way in hell this woman was 100% certain that Tim Cole was the man who raped her.

I agree with this but too bad your philosophy isn't consistent.

[Mr. Peabody]

By the way...the completely incompetent US justice system reminds me of cars...


Stupid justice system gives credence to victim ID's of accused perpetrators...and those stupid cars go actually go where the drivers tell them to. What we need is a justice system that totally ignores victim ID's...and cars that don't go where drivers drive them.

I agree that there are often problems with eye witness testimony. People think they see things they may not have, people want to be "correct" (testify in a way that helps whoever they are testifying for) in their testimony, etc.

By ignoring victims IDs though, you undermine a good number of cases. For example, in aggravated sexual assault cases involving children, it's not uncommon for the ONLY evidence to be the word of a child identifying the accused as someone who penetrated them. In robbery cases, often all you have is the victim's identification of the robber on which to rely. It's a problem and I have no doubt that there are many innocent people sitting in prison as a result of this.

[Mr. Peabody]

But the bottom line is that this woman positively ID'd an innocent man as a rapist. She did it multiple times, she did it under oath, she did it knowing full well that the man was going to prison for rape. There is no way she could have been positive that this was the man that raped her, because he was not the man who raped her, yet she did it anyway.



So . . . you've never been certain of something only to discover later that you were absolutely wrong?

Shall I go pull up some of your posts from October and November . . . ?

[MannyIsGod]

So . . . you've never been certain of something only to discover later that you were absolutely wrong?

Shall I go pull up some of your posts from October and November . . . ?

Oh snap.

[bilone]

.

[Spurminator]

Damn, Whottt, you are really hung up on the word "unfortunate" aren't you? My bad. It's fucked up. Completely fucked up. It sucks. It's beyond horrible.

Better?



There is no way in hell this woman was 100% certain that Tim Cole was the man who raped her.

And I say there's no way in hell the PA was 100% certain either. But they needed a conviction.

Why are you letting the authorities off the hook?

[SpursFanFirst]

.

[SpursFanFirst]

So . . . you've never been certain of something only to discover later that you were absolutely wrong?

Shall I go pull up some of your posts from October and November . . . ?

:lmao Zing...

[koriwhat]

So . . . you've never been certain of something only to discover later that you were absolutely wrong?

Shall I go pull up some of your posts from October and November . . . ?

haha!!

[doobs]

It's better for the guilty to go free than for the innnocent to be wrongly imprisoned. Always. Without fail. 100% of the time.


Sure, if we are talking about one innocent man going to prison and one guilty man going free. In that case, it is better to let the guilty man go free.

If you ask me, it is better for one hundred guilty men to go free than it is for one innocent man to go to prison. But one thousand? Five hundred? Two hundred? I don't know. At some point, you have to tolerate unfairness because the system will never be perfect.

[whottt]

How much more so then for false executions?

What? False executions are exponentially worse. I'm not in favor of false executions so I'm not really sure why you think this is relevant.



You can't possibly know this. You just assume it.

Oh I can be 100% certain. She clearly saw her attacker and indentified someone else...unless they are identical twins there's absolutely no way she was 100% certain.

[whottt]

As for Peabody's joke that gave you all so much amusement in a thread about an innocent man's death and imprisonment..

I'm laughing too...at the retarded sense of right and wrong that fogs your minds.


Go ahead and dig up anything you like Peabody...but just be sure to dig up the part where someone went to jail and died because I was wrong about a prediction(read: an event that had not happened yet as opposed to a wrong ID about an event that had already happened and in which the victim spent several hours with the perpetrator).

What you need to find is me being 100% certain that John McCain is the President now, that would be equivalent to the stupidity of this bitch, and yourself for thinking that was in any way a clever analogy.

[whottt]

Damn, Whottt, you are really hung up on the word "unfortunate" aren't you? My bad. It's fucked up. Completely fucked up. It sucks. It's beyond horrible.

Better?


It's unfortunate that you elect to make excuses and view a man's death and wrongful imprisonment as a mere unfortunate by-product of the current legal system.



And I say there's no way in hell the PA was 100% certain either. But they needed a conviction.

Why are you letting the authorities off the hook?



I'm not. I'm 100% in favor of the prosecuting attorney seving time over this..difference is, no one is making excuses for him.

And there's only one person in this case besides the rapist that was there when the rape occurred....and unfortunately she's a complet idiot.




Ya'll need to watch some interviews with this bitch and see some of her comments, it is obvious that she was going to send someone to jail.


In her own words what she told the rapist, "if I ever get out of this, you're going down".

Uh bitch...maybe you ought to waste a few of those precious braincells on what he actually looks like if you really mean that.


Someone was going to jail because she got raped...period.


This bitch cares virtually nothing about the man she sent to his death...she cares about the fact that she was raped first and foremost.


Fuck her.

[whottt]

I agree with this but too bad your philosophy isn't consistent.

Oh really? In what way is my philosophy inconsistent?

[Galileo]

Give it to 'em whottt! Yawww!!

[MannyIsGod]

Oh really? In what way is my philosophy inconsistent?

You'd rather see innocent people dead if they aren't Americans.

[whottt]

"Rather" as opposed to what?

One situation is a war, a guerilla war at that, and the other is domestic crime.

Huge difference there...wars are extremely large groups of people attempting to do nothing other than kill each other. Guerilla wars and terrorists deliberately place civillians at risk, in fact they want civillian casualties for PR puproses.

And yes, you are absolutely right, I choose our soliders over their civillians, and those civillians would pretty much choose the exact same thing.


But these are two drastically different situations.

[Blake]

By the way...the completely incompetent US justice system reminds me of cars...


Stupid justice system gives credence to victim ID's of accused perpetrators...and those stupid cars go actually go where the drivers tell them to. What we need is a justice system that totally ignores victim ID's...and cars that don't go where drivers drive them.

the 'whottt the fock' analogy of the day

[smeagol]

whottt:

Not sure who you hate more, this woman or Scola?

[angel_luv]

Texas district court judge Friday reversed the conviction of a man who died in prison nearly a decade ago, almost two decades into a prison sentence for a rape he swore he did not commit, CNN affiliate KXAN reported.

Timothy Cole was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for the 1985 rape of 20-year-old Michele Mallin. He maintained his innocence, but it was not confirmed by DNA until years after his 1999 death, when another inmate confessed to the rape.

In the courtroom of Judge Charlie Baird Friday afternoon, Mallin, now 44, faced Jerry Johnson, the man who confessed to the rape.

"What you did to me, you had no right to do," she told him angrily, according to Austin's KXAN. "You've got no right to do that to any woman. I am the one with the power now, buddy."

Cole's family also addressed Johnson.

"He'll never have the chance to have children," Cole's mother, Ruby Session, said. "I want you to know he was a fine young man."

Johnson has been in prison since 1985 on two convictions for aggravated sexual assault, according to the Texas Department of Corrections. He was given a life sentence for the rape of a 15-year-old girl, and a jury later tacked on a 99-year sentence for another rape, according to the Lubbock, Texas, Avalanche-Journal. He cannot be charged with the Mallin case, as the statute of limitations has expired.

Johnson also spoke Friday.

"I am responsible," he said. "I say I am truly sorry."

Then a student at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Mallin was walking to her car, intending to move it to another parking lot, when a man approached her asking about jumper cables, she said. In a matter of seconds, he put her in a choke hold and held a knife to her neck. He forced himself into her car and drove her to the outskirts of town, where he raped her.

The next day, police investigators showed Mallin pictures of possible suspects. She chose a picture of Cole and said he was her attacker. She later identified him in a physical lineup, according to the Innocence Project of Texas.

"I was positive," she said. "I really thought it was him."

But there was one detail: Mallin told police her attacker was a smoker. "He was smoking the entire time."

Cole, who suffered from severe asthma, "was never a smoker," said his brother, Cory Session. "He took daily medications [for asthma] when he was younger."

"He was the sacrificial lamb. To them, my brother was the Tech rapist, there was no backtracking. It was the trial of the decade for Lubbock."

The "Tech rapist" attacked four women other than Mallin -- abducting them in parking lots near campus and driving them to a vacant location, where he would rape them and flee on foot, according to the Innocence Project of Texas. The rapist "terrorized" the Texas Tech campus in the mid-1980s, the organization said.

Cole, like Mallin, was a student at Texas Tech. He had finished two years of college previously and was returning to school after spending two years in the Army, his brother said.

But his dreams of getting married and having children never materialized. He was arrested and charged with Mallin's rape, declining a plea bargain offer that would have put him on probation. A jury convicted him and imposed a 25-year sentence.

That night, "he hugged my mother and he said, 'Mother, why these people lie on me, why they do this to me?'" Cole's brother Reggie Session recounted for the Avalanche-Journal, which published a three-part series on the case in June.

"He said, 'They know I ain't done nothing to that girl. I don't even know that girl. Why they do this to me, mother?' ... He cried in my mother's arms on the floor."

Later, while in prison, Cole rejected an offer of parole that would have required him to admit guilt. "His greatest wish was to be exonerated and completely vindicated," his mother, Ruby Session, told KXAN.

But the asthma that plagued Cole throughout his life brought about his death on December 2, 1999. The cause was determined to be heart complications due to his asthmatic condition. He was 39.

It was 2007 when a letter addressed to Cole arrived at his family's home, written by Johnson.

"You may recall my name from your 1986 rape trial in Lubbock," says the letter, dated May 11, 2007. "Your Lubbock attorney, Mike Brown, tried to show I committed the rape.

"I have been trying to locate you since 1995 to tell you I wish to confess I did in fact commit the rape Lubbock wrongly convicted you of. It is very possible that through a written confession from me and DNA testing, you can finally have your name cleared of the rape ... if this letter reaches you, please contact me by writing so that we can arrange to take the steps to get the process started. Whatever it takes, I will do it."

Johnson did not know Cole had died. In fact, according to the Avalanche-Journal, he had been writing to court officials for years to confess to the rape, but got nowhere.

Upon finding out that Cole was dead, Johnson wrote he "cried and felt double guilty, even though I know the system's at fault," according to the Avalanche-Journal.

"A day later, I am still bothered, terribly, by the death revelation. Because, not knowing Mr. Cole at all, I wonder if the wrongful incarceration contributed to his death."

The Innocence Project became involved after Cole's family received Johnson's letter. DNA tests confirmed that Johnson was Mallin's attacker. Now, Cole's family hopes the court hearing will be the final step in clearing his name.

Mallin is helping them. "I was very traumatized," she said. "I was scared for my life. I tried my hardest to remember what he looked like.

"I'm trying to get his name cleared. It's the right thing to do."

Cory Session said, "We don't blame Michele. She's very gracious."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/index.html


Gosh that's horrible. The poor man- to die wrongly convicted and in prison.
And I am sure he is not the first and unfortunately likely will not be the last.

And how courageous of him to never take a plea when he knew he was innocent.

[whottt]

whottt:

Not sure who you hate more, this woman or Scola?

I don't hate Scola...I think he's overrated...it's Scola's fans that I hate.

I don't really hate this woman either...I just think she's an irresponsible idiot who needs to be punished for her carelessness with a another persons life. The same way just about anyone else would be if they hadn't been raped. I don't consider being raped a good excuse for killing someone who is completely innocent...but that's just me and my fucked sense of priorities.

[whottt]

the 'whottt the fock' analogy of the day


Well...drunk divers don't intend to kill other people, it's just those damn cars have that stupid habit of going where those drivers drive them. It's really almost the exact same excuse people are making when they excuse this false ID and act like the system is the only cause behind it.

[whottt]

Anyway, you can guys think I am being unempathic or cold or whatever...

But the chance that Tim Cole might be the rapist and she might miss the chance to send the guy to jail, was more important to her than the fact he might not be and she might send a completely innocent man to jail. She wasn't convinced it was Tim Cole that raped her, it's just the most important thing to her was there was a chance he might be, and that he might walk and deny her her revenge. And she wasn't going to let the bastard that raped her walk...she wasn't going to miss that chance.

That's exactly what she did...and now she needs to pay the price for that decision. Especially since with regularity the first words out of her mouth are about her rape and not Tim Cole's death.


Legal heads definitely need to roll over this...whoever supressed the evidence the rapist was a smoker and Cole had asthma...the fact she never got to see the actual rapist.

But ultimately I still say, if she hadn't been more concerned with making sure someone goes to jail than whether or not she was 100% certain...Tim Cole wouldn't have gone to jail...and the rapist likely would have. No one knew for sure what the rapist looked like but her. That responsibility was hers. 100%.

[Spurminator]

So what should happen to her?

[whottt]

At the minimum she needs to be charged with perjury or lying under oath for falsely identifying an innocent man as a rapist while under oath. Because that's exactly what she did. She said she was 100% certain he was the man raped her...and she couldn't have been, since he wasn't.

It's the reason Tim Cole went to prison and died...it's the reason the jury convicted him.

Make no mistake about it...the attorneys and judges who supressed vital evidence and the police who encouraged her to make that ID need to go to prison too. Everyone that failed this man needs to be punished for it.

It needs to be a general practice...that's the only way to make sure people take this great responsibility seriously.

And yes...it might mean some guilty people go free, which is far less of a crime than innocent people going to prison.

And yes I still support the death penalty.

[Blake]

At the minimum she needs to be charged with perjury or lying under oath for falsely identifying an innocent man as a rapist while under oath. Because that's exactly what she did. She said she was 100% certain he was the man raped her...and she couldn't have been, since he wasn't.

if she honestly believes that she is 100% certain, then it's not lying or perjury.


It's the reason Tim Cole went to prison and died...it's the reason the jury convicted him.

Make no mistake about it...the attorneys and judges who supressed vital evidence and the police who encouraged her to make that ID need to go to prison too. Everyone that failed this man needs to be punished for it.

wrong. The jury decided he was guilty too. Are they going to jail in whottt's world?

If it's the way the system is set up, then they did nothing wrong.

The system might need to be changed, but nobody is going to jail.

It's why your car analogy is bad. A drunk getting behind the wheel of a car is illegal. A person getting up on a stand and pointing out someone she feels raped her is still legal.


It needs to be a general practice...that's the only way to make sure people take this great responsibility seriously.

And yes...it might mean some guilty people go free, which is far less of a crime than innocent people going to prison.

And yes I still support the death penalty.

well hell, let's just scrap the entire prison system because there's probably somebody innocent sitting in a jail cell somewhere.

gimme a break.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's the preference for a conviction over the truth that's the problem. Again, the Truth movement is coming, but conviction-hungry prosecutors in many places are resisting its efforts and, even where the effort is well-received, the resources to support its work are limited. Having listened, within the last year, to Barry Scheck talk about this sort of problem, I'm hopeful that things will get better -- that funding will be available to ensure that even if objective truths about guilt and innocence aren't the aim of criminal prosecution, those objective truths will carry the day where they are knowable.

[Galileo]

if she honestly believes that she is 100% certain, then it's not lying or perjury.





The facts show that she lied about her level of belief. She said she was 100% certain that Cole did it. The facts show that she was not 100% certain, and was maybe only 50% certain at best. She is a racist on a power trip.

The reality is that six random young black men were put in front of her. The odds that any were the real rapist was extremely low from the get-go. She even said she wasn't sure who was even the closest looking to the real rapist, let alone actually identifying him, yet she changed her testimony out of her hatred.

The critical factor for the jury verdict was the 100% certainty, and she needs to be severly punished for this lie which cost Tim Cole his life, all his money, his reputation, and his chance to start his own family. The entire Cole family was disgraced and losts thousands of dollars they couldn't afford, and were inconvenienced with countless court appearances that they didn't have time to attend, and which were very unpleasant.

The court system is filled with liars of this type, those who lie about their level of belief. The only way to stop it is to punish those who do it.

The is no single crime worse than falsely accusing a person of rape. This crime is even worse than 1st degree murder. No one is safe when liars are allowed to run free in the courtroom.

Send Michele "all black men look alike" Mallin to Gitmo.

[FromWayDowntown]

The critical factor for the jury verdict was the 100% certainty,

I'm not sure how you know that as a certainty. The fact that she identified Cole and the fact that Cole was convicted does not lead inexorably to the conclusion that her belief in the identification was the deciding factor in guilt or innocence.

Juries in criminal cases are, I think, predisposed to find guilt. The fact that a witness states an unequivocal belief in her identification of the suspect as the perpetrator of the crime might reassure the jury's predisposition, but I don't think it determines guilt or innocence in most cases.

Are you saying that if she had testified to a 90% belief in her identification that the jury would have acquitted Cole?


The court system is filled with liars of this type, those who lie about their level of belief. The only way to stop it is to punish those who do it.

I think the bigger issue is seeking to assure certainty in identification of suspects. There are people who falsely identify suspects with no bad intention at all; it's not as if people are cool, calm, and collected when they're victimized by a crime -- or even when they witness one.

The ramifications of imposing criminal liability upon anyone who incorrectly identifies a suspect would be terrible. It would basically make most people reluctant to identify anyone, even if they believed themselves to be 100% certain. The problem, again, is the manner in which identifications are obtained and the certainty that prosecutors and juries ascribe to identifications that haven't been corroborated in any way.


The is no single crime worse than falsely accusing a person of rape. This crime is even worse than 1st degree murder.

Yeah, that's a stretch. A false accusation of rape is a hideous thing, no doubt. But the idealistically speaking, the criminal justice system affords substantive and procedural safeguards to those who are so accused and offers them an opportunity to negate the charge.

The victim of a homicide has no such protection.

[Galileo]

The victim of a homicide has no such protection.

The family of a victim of a homicide is much better off than the family of a victim of a false rape accusation.

First of all, if someone in your family is murdered, then you get sympathy and can collect on life insurance policies, and will typically get help from the community.

If someone in your family is the victim of a false rape accusation, you get no sympathy and no money, and you probably spend your life savings on legal fees. And you don't get any finality.

Tim Cole lived a living hell and then he died. The people responsible for it; the judge, the prosecutor, the detectives, the jurors, and Michele "all black people look alike" Maillin, are a threat to do it again and again and again.

[Blake]

The facts show that she lied about her level of belief. She said she was 100% certain that Cole did it. The facts show that she was not 100% certain, and was maybe only 50% certain at best. She is a racist on a power trip.

so you have evidence that she committed perjury?

quick, go give it a prosecutor to press charges and to Cole's family so they can win a wrongful death suit.

you have nothing but your own opinion.

[Galileo]

so you have evidence that she committed perjury?

quick, go give it a prosecutor to press charges and to Cole's family so they can win a wrongful death suit.

you have nothing but your own opinion.

There's three pieces of evidence that shows its not reasonable to believe that she just made a mistake:

1)

She admits right on the video that she's not certain. She says she just pointed to one black guy and said I think its him.

Watch the video, dufus.

2)

Cole does not look like Johnson, so it is not reasonable to believe that an honest person would be 100% certain that Cole was Johnson. There is no evidence that Mallin could name even one characteristic of Johnson that would back up her claim that she saw Johnson well enough to be 100% certain that Cole was Johnson.

3)

Mallin testified intentionally against Cole. She did not accidently testifiy against Cole. She also claimed on the stand that she was not mistaken when she ID'd Cole.

[MannyIsGod]

"Rather" as opposed to what?

One situation is a war, a guerilla war at that, and the other is domestic crime.

Huge difference there...wars are extremely large groups of people attempting to do nothing other than kill each other. Guerilla wars and terrorists deliberately place civillians at risk, in fact they want civillian casualties for PR puproses.

And yes, you are absolutely right, I choose our soliders over their civillians, and those civillians would pretty much choose the exact same thing.


But these are two drastically different situations.

The point is that in one case you protect the innocent even if that means the guilty go free because you feel it is far worse to punish an innocent incorrectly. In many other situations you throw that belief out the window and drop your threshold for that. You've gone as far to call for the nuking of other cities in the middle east.

Its a clear inconsistency in what your philosophy.

[Blake]

There's three pieces of evidence that shows its not reasonable to believe that she just made a mistake:

what are you doing in here then?

get that evidence to a prosecutor so that they stick her behind bars right away.


1)

She admits right on the video that she's not certain. She says she just pointed to one black guy and said I think its him.

Watch the video, dufus.

I watched the video.

She says she pointed to one of the pictures and said "I think it's him."

She never says she's not certain, dufus.


2)

Cole does not look like Johnson, so it is not reasonable to believe that an honest person would be 100% certain that Cole was Johnson. There is no evidence that Mallin could name even one characteristic of Johnson that would back up her claim that she saw Johnson well enough to be 100% certain that Cole was Johnson.

1. the attack was at 10 at night
2. the picture you see in the video of Johnson is relatively current.......which means that there is about a 20 year age difference between the two pictures, dufus


3)

Mallin testified intentionally against Cole. She did not accidently testifiy against Cole. She also claimed on the stand that she was not mistaken when she ID'd Cole.

because she had it in for Cole? what proof do you have of that?

She claimed she was certain on the stand because she believed she was certain.

That's not lying so it's not perjury.

you're a pretty sick bastard to suggest that this girl go to jail for a crime she didn't commit.

[whottt]

Um...Manny, they are totally different situations as I said, and it's not that I callously don't care about the innocent civillians of other Nations dying...it's that I am choosing our troops not being forced to fight with one arm tied behind their back or become a dumbass fucking target over their civillians. For it is their job to defend this Nation first and foremost...not the civillians of other Nations, and since they are fighting on behalf of this Nation in a war, this Nation that I live in...I choose give them a chance to actually win the war and defend themselves as opposed to being bogged down in political bullshit and propaganda and dying.

If those civillians don't want to die then perhaps they should either move(homelessness > death) tell the guerillas and terrorists to stop putting them at risk, or rat them out.

But to do nothing but sit there and allow themselves to be used a human shields and enemy propaganda...well, I'll choose the soliders fighting on behalf of my country, every fucking time.

When Nations are no longer the dominant form of organized society I might change that perspective...but as of now they still are.

I do not have to choose between my soldiers and an innocent civillian in a domestic crime case. Especially in this case...Tim Cole was not allowing himself to be used as a human shield or death propaganda by Guerillas and Terrorists that we are war with, and in fact, Tim Cole was a fucking veteran of the US Military.

If People in America are dying because an innocent civillian is too fucking stupid to move away from a Guerilla or Terrorist, or allowing themselves to be used, covertly supporting Terrorists and Guerillas that deliberately place civillians at risk...I will like choose those that are fighting the Guerillas over them in that case as well.


The Criminal Justice System does not have the same responsibilities as the US Military...they basically have one job, catching criminals and deciding guilt or innocence...that's it. No soldiers have to die, stupidly, for them to make sure the innocent aren't imprisoned...so I fucking expect them to do that to best of their ability...otherwise, what is their purpose?




And you grossly mistate my Nuclear Weapons stance...it's always been about retalliation for a nuked US City...


And remember, Nuclear Radiation is organic.

[RandomGuy]

"Rather" as opposed to what?

One situation is a war, a guerilla war at that, and the other is domestic crime.

Huge difference there...wars are extremely large groups of people attempting to do nothing other than kill each other. Guerilla wars and terrorists deliberately place civillians at risk, in fact they want civillian casualties for PR puproses.

And yes, you are absolutely right, I choose our soliders over their civillians, and those civillians would pretty much choose the exact same thing.


But these are two drastically different situations.

Military FAIL.


Paradox 1:
The more you protect your force, the less secure you are (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51788)

Indescriminant use of force that does not take into account reaction of the civilian population to casualties causes more insurgents to take up arms, and that ends up killing more of your troops than allowing yourself to be shot at in the first place and not engaging.

[whottt]

Military FAIL.

Random Fail.




Indescriminant use of force that does not take into account reaction of the civilian population to casualties causes more insurgents to take up arms, and that ends up killing more of your troops than allowing yourself to be shot at in the first place and not engaging.



Paradox 15:

Random guy considering a socialist who got the surge shoved up his ass as some kind of expert...or perhaps, not so paradoxical at all.


Better to be shot at? Let's see him illustrate it for us...it's not a better option to be shot at if you're the guy being shot at...douche.


And if they are future insurgents, then they aren't innocent civillians now are they?