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Winehole23
02-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Nationalize Insolvent Banks (http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/11/geithner-banks-nationalization-opinions-columnists_0212_nouriel_roubini.html)

Nouriel Roubini (http://search.forbes.com/search/colArchiveSearch?author=nouriel+and+roubini&aname=Nouriel+Roubini), 02.12.09, 12:01 AM EST Paradoxically, this is a market-friendly solution to the crisis.

http://images.forbes.com/media/authorbox/nourielroubini.jpg
A year ago I predicted that losses by U.S. financial institutions would be at least $1 trillion and possibly as high as $2 trillion.



At that time, the consensus was that such estimates were gross exaggerations--the naïve optimists had in mind about $200 billion of expected subprime mortgage losses. But, as I pointed out, losses would rapidly mount well beyond subprime mortgages as the U.S. and global economy spun into a severe financial crisis and ugly recession.



I argued that we would see rising losses on subprime, near-prime and prime mortgages; commercial real estate; credit cards (http://topics.forbes.com/credit%20cards), auto loans and student loans; industrial and commercial loans; corporate bonds, sovereign bonds and state and local government bonds; and massive losses on all of the assets--collateralized debt obligations (CDOs), collateralized loan obligations, asset-backed securities and the entire alphabet of credit derivatives--that had securitized such loans.



By now, write-downs by U.S. banks have already passed the $1 trillion mark (my floor estimate of losses), and institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (http://topics.forbes.com/International%20Monetary%20Fund) and Goldman Sachs predict losses over $2 trillion (close to my original expected ceiling for such losses).


But if you think $2 trillion is already huge, our latest estimates at RGE Monitor (available in a paper for our clients (http://www.rgemonitor.com/redir.php?sid=1&tgid=10000&cid=317417)) suggest that total losses on loans made by U.S. financial firms and the fall in the market value of the assets they are holding will be, at their peak, about $3.6 trillion. The U.S. banks and broker-dealers are exposed to half of this much, or $1.8 trillion; the rest is borne by other financial institutions in the U.S. and abroad.

The capital backing the banks' assets was just $1.4 trillion (last fall), leaving the U.S. banking system (http://topics.forbes.com/banking%20system) some $400 billion in the hole, or close to zero even after the government and private-sector recapitalization of such banks. Thus, another $1.4 trillion will be needed to bring back the capital of banks to the level it had before the crisis, and such massive additional recapitalization is needed to resolve the credit crunch and restore lending to the private sector.



These figures suggests the U.S. banking system is effectively insolvent in the aggregate; most of the U.K. banking system looks insolvent, too, and many other banks in continental Europe are also insolvent.


There are four basic approaches to a clean-up of a banking system that is facing a systemic crisis:



No. 1: Recapitalization together with the purchase by a government "bad bank" of the toxic assets;

No. 2: Recapitalization together with government guarantees--after a first loss by the banks--of the toxic assets;
\
No. 3: Private purchase of toxic assets with a government guarantee and/or--semi-equivalently (a provision of public capital to set up a public-private bad bank where private investors participate in the purchase of such assets--something similar to the U.S. government plan presented by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner for a public-private investment fund);

No. 4: Outright government takeover (call it nationalization--or "receivership" if you don't like the N-word) of insolvent banks, to be cleaned after takeover and then resold to the private sector.


Of the four options, the first three have serious flaws. In the bad-bank model (the first, above) the government may overpay for the bad assets, at a high cost for the taxpayer, as their true value is uncertain; if it does not overpay for the assets, many banks are bust, as the mark-to-market haircut they need to recognize is too large for them to bear.


Even in the guarantee-after-first-loss model (No. 2 above), there are massive valuation problems, and there can be very expensive risk for the taxpayer, as the true value of the assets is as uncertain (as in the purchase of bad assets model).



The shady guarantee deals recently done with Citigroup (nyse: C (http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance.jsp?tkr=C) - news (http://search.forbes.com/search/CompanyNewsSearch?ticker=C) - people (http://people.forbes.com/search?ticker=C)) and Bank of America (nyse: BAC (http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance.jsp?tkr=BAC) - news (http://search.forbes.com/search/CompanyNewsSearch?ticker=BAC) - people (http://people.forbes.com/search?ticker=BAC)) were even less transparent than an outright government purchase of bad assets, as the bad-asset-purchase model at least has the advantage of transparency of the price paid for toxic assets.


In the bad-bank model, the government has the additional problem of having to manage all the bad assets it purchased, something that it does not have much expertise in. At least in the guarantee model, the assets stay with the banks. The banks know better how to manage--and also have a greater incentive than the government to eventually work out such bad assets.

The very cumbersome U.S. Treasury proposal to dispose of toxic assets, presented by Geithner, taking the toxic asset off the banks' balance sheets as well as providing government guarantees to the private investors that will purchase them (and/or public capital provision to fund a public-private bad bank that would purchase such assets). But this plan is so non-transparent and complicated it got a thumbs-down from the markets as soon as it was announced. All major U.S. equity indexes dropped sharply.

The main problem with the Treasury plan--that in some ways may resemble the deal between Merrill Lynch (nyse: MER (http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance.jsp?tkr=MER) - news (http://search.forbes.com/search/CompanyNewsSearch?ticker=MER) - people (http://people.forbes.com/search?ticker=MER)) and Lone Star--is the following: Merrill sold its CDOs to Lone Star for 22 cents on the dollar. Even in that case, Merrill remained on the hook in case the value of the assets were to fall below 22 cents, as Lone Star paid initially only 11 cents (i.e., Merrill guaranteed the Lone Star downside risk). But today, a bank like Citi has similar CDOs that, until recently, were still sitting on its books at a deluded value of 60 cents.


Since the government knows no one in the private sector would buy those most toxic assets at 60 cents, it may have to make a guarantee (formally or informally) to limit the downside risk to private investors from purchasing such assets. But that guarantee would be hugely expensive if you needed to convince private folks to buy at 60 cents assets that are worth only 20--or even 11--cents.



So the new Treasury plan would end up being again a royal rip-off of the taxpayer if the guarantee is excessive in relation to the true value of the underlying assets. And if, instead, the guarantee is not excessive, the banks need to sell the toxic assets at their true underlying value, implying that the emperor has no clothes.



A true valuation of the bad assets--without a huge taxpayer bailout of the shareholders and unsecured creditors of banks--implies that banks are bankrupt and should be taken over by the government.


Thus, all the schemes that have so far been proposed to deal with the toxic assets of the banks may be a big fudge--one that either does not work or works only if the government bails out shareholders and unsecured creditors of the banks.


So, paradoxically, nationalization may be a more market-friendly solution to a banking crisis. It creates the biggest hit for common and preferred shareholders of clearly insolvent institutions and, most certainly, even the unsecured creditors, in case the bank insolvency hole is too large; it also provides a fair upside to the taxpayer.



Nationalization can also resolve the problem of the government managing the bad assets: If you're selling back all the banks' assets and deposits to new private shareholders after a clean-up, together with a partial government guarantee of the bad assets (as was done in the resolution of the Indy Mac bank failure), you avoid having the government manage the bad assets.



Alternatively, if the bad assets are kept by the government after a takeover of the banks and only the good ones are sold back, through a reprivatization scheme, the government could outsource the job of managing these assets to private asset managers. In this way, the government can avoid creating its own Resolution Trust Corp. bank to work out such bad assets.


Nationalization also resolves the too-big-to-fail problem of banks that are systemically important, and that thus need to be rescued by the government at a high cost to the taxpayer. This too-big-to-fail problem has now become an even-bigger-than-too-big-to-fail problem, as the current approach has led weak banks to take over even weaker banks.



Merging two zombie banks is like having two drunks trying to help each other stand up. The JPMorgan Chase takeover of insolvent Bear Stearns and WaMu; the Bank of America takeover of insolvent Countrywide and Merrill Lynch; and the Wells Fargo (nyse: WFC (http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance.jsp?tkr=WFC) - news (http://search.forbes.com/search/CompanyNewsSearch?ticker=WFC) - people (http://people.forbes.com/search?ticker=WFC)) takeover of insolvent Wachovia (nyse: WB (http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance.jsp?tkr=WB) - news (http://search.forbes.com/search/CompanyNewsSearch?ticker=WB) - people (http://people.forbes.com/search?ticker=WB)), all show that the too-big-to-fail monster has become even bigger.



In the Wachovia case, you had two wounded institutions (Citi and Wells Fargo) bidding for a zombie, insolvent one. Why? They both knew that becoming even bigger than too big to fail was the right strategy to extract an even greater bailout from the government. Instead, with the nationalization approach, the government can break up these financial supermarket monstrosities into smaller pieces to be sold to private investors as smaller (better) banks.

(http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/forbes/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.forbes.com%252F2009%252F02% 252F11%252Fgeithner-banks-nationalization-opinions-columnists_0212_nouriel_roubini.html%253Fpartner%2 53Dyahoobuzz)
This "nationalization" approach was successfully undertaken by Sweden, while the current U.S. and U.K. approach may end up looking like the zombie banks of Japan that were never properly restructured and ended up perpetuating the credit crunch and credit freeze.



Japan wound up with a decade-long near-depression because of its failure to clean up the banks and the bad debts. The U.S., U.K. and other economies risk a similar near-depression and stag-deflation (multi-year recession and price deflation) if they fail to appropriately tackle this most severe banking crisis.


So why is the U.S. government temporizing and avoiding doing the right thing, i.e., taking over the insolvent banks?There are two reasons.

First, there is still some small hope (and a small probability) that the economy will recover sooner than expected, that expected credit losses will be smaller than expected, and that the current approach of recapping the banks and somehow working out the bad assets will work in due time.

Second, taking over the banks--whether you call it nationalization or, in a more politically correct way, "receivership"--is a radical action that requires most banks be clearly beyond the pale. Today, Citi and Bank of America look blatantly near-insolvent and ready to be taken over, but JPMorgan and Wells Fargo as yet do not.



But with the sharp rise in delinquencies and charge-off rates that we are experiencing now on mortgages, commercial real estate and consumer credit (http://topics.forbes.com/consumer%20credit), even JPMorgan and Wells will likely look near-insolvent in six to 12 months (as suggested by Chris Whalen (http://us1.institutionalriskanalytics.com/pub/IRAstory.asp?tag=337), one of the leading independent analysts of the banking system (http://topics.forbes.com/banking%20system)).



Thus, if the government were to take over only Citi and Bank of America today, wiping out common and preferred shareholders and forcing unsecured creditors to take a haircut, a panic may ensue for other banks, and the Lehman fallout that resulted from having unsecured creditors taking losses on their bonds will be repeated.



On the other hand, if, as is likely, the current "fudging" strategy does not work, and most banks--the major four and the a good number of the remaining regional banks--all look clearly insolvent in six to 12 months, you can then take them all over, wipe out common and preferred shareholders and even force unsecured creditors to accept losses.



So, the current strategy--Plan A-- may not work, and Plan B (or better, "Plan N," for nationalization) may end up the way to go later this year. Wasting another six to 12 months may risk turning a U-shaped recession into an L-shaped near-depression.


The political constraints the new administration faces--and the remaining small probability that the current strategy may, by some miracle or luck, work--suggest Plan A should be first exhausted before there is a move to Plan N.



But with the government forcing Citi to shed some of its units and assets, and starting stress tests to figure out which institutions are so massively undercapitalized that they need to be taken over by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., the administration is laying the groundwork for the eventual, necessary takeover of the insolvent banks.


So while Plan A is now underway, the very negative market response to this Treasury plan suggests it will not fly. Markets were expecting a more clear plan, but also one that would bail out shareholders and creditors of insolvent banks. Unfortunately, that is politically and fiscally unfeasible. It is time to start to think and plan ahead for for Plan N.

TDMVPDPOY
02-12-2009, 11:18 AM
nationalized banks doesnt do shit, besides ppl looking for security in their deposit accounts withdrawal all funds from another bank into the govts nationalized bank.

Winehole23
02-12-2009, 11:21 AM
What then should we do, TD?

TDMVPDPOY
02-12-2009, 12:09 PM
What then should we do, TD?

IMO govt should not bail out any type or form of company where they dont have 100% control of the company.

Govt should buy back the companys they have privatized in the pass which are of national interest....water/energy utilitys, transport system.

Now with the banks, let it go broke and decreased the number of providers in the market. Depositers who loss their funds will be paid a capped amount "per person". People who own shares or have funds in high-gearing non-conventional investments or schemes dont get bailed out. If the banks dont improve there trade practices, the govt will step in and nationalize a bank of their own. They will be the regulator and enforce new measures into the market at the fed reserve banks jurisdiction...no monopoly bs.

Increased govt spending into infrastructure that creates jobs. Education, healthcare, housing....

decrease tax payable and payroll for individuals/companys.
increase rebates/credits to allow more money in consumers wallets to spend as an incentive.

Industries that no longer existed should be started up again, and increased tariffs on foreign bs to protect them industries. So you got ur big american companys who outsourced in the pass, are force to hire americans.

ps. dunno why the govt would take on debt of bad companys, when the govt can just start out fresh.

ChumpDumper
02-12-2009, 12:15 PM
nationalized banks doesnt do shit, besides ppl looking for security in their deposit accounts withdrawal all funds from another bank into the govts nationalized bank.:lmao

You don't know how the FDIC works, do you?

TDMVPDPOY
02-12-2009, 12:20 PM
:lmao

You don't know how the FDIC works, do you?

apparently no :(

but i rather have my money in a govt owned bank than some wankers up there who used ur money and gamble on the market.

ChumpDumper
02-12-2009, 12:23 PM
apparently no :(

but i rather have my money in a govt owned bank than some wankers up there who used ur money and gamble on the market.If you have 250k or less in your accounts, the government already insures your deposit account in any bank. That's why I didn't mind keeping my account at WaMu while it was going down the toilet. The interest was good while it lasted.

You raise an interesting question for larger depositors, but that's above my pay grade.

TDMVPDPOY
02-12-2009, 12:39 PM
If you have 250k or less in your accounts, the government already insures your deposit account in any bank. That's why I didn't mind keeping my account at WaMu while it was going down the toilet. The interest was good while it lasted.

You raise an interesting question for larger depositors, but that's above my pay grade.

Down here it was capped at 20k for all deposits....then govt increased it to 1million...but those people had to buy insurance on the amount 1m and over. But the banks down here are all safe anyway.

People who have money in trusts accounts/superannuation wont be bailed out if there folios were mainly shares cause the govt sees them as highly-geared investments which is unconventional to the lowly-geared investments into bank deposits.

ChumpDumper
02-12-2009, 12:43 PM
That's funny. It got me to thinking -- If you are over the FDIC limits, how could you really lose if your money was in a bank like IndyMac that was already being run by the FDIC? I guess it's possible, just less likely.

Gino
02-12-2009, 12:58 PM
Lets nationalize everything, comrades!!!

TDMVPDPOY
02-12-2009, 01:05 PM
That's funny. It got me to thinking -- If you are over the FDIC limits, how could you really lose if your money was in a bank like IndyMac that was already being run by the FDIC? I guess it's possible, just less likely.

Well they play with your money/reserves on the market/foreign exchange or investments that end up go broke. The capital is barrowed against it, but when everything is in the shits and cant pay debts when due...might as well go broke.
They must do something with ur money to give you 5% interest on ur deposits :(...hence sledging stupid bank fees and shit eating out of ur interest earned for the year... :(:(. Its a bitch when the banks/institutions dont allow you to withdrawal your funds......cause they trying to stay afloat instead of becoming insolvent.

Winehole23
02-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Sen. Lindsay Graham wouldn't rule out nationalization (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQ1L29.emkg0&refer=home).

Winehole23
02-18-2009, 11:37 AM
Greenspan weighs in in favor of an orderly process (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e310cbf6-fd4e-11dd-a103-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1).


”It may be necessary to temporarily nationalise some banks in order to facilitate a swift and orderly restructuring,” he said. “I understand that once in a hundred years this is what you do.”

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 09:56 AM
Citi in nationalization talks (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD96HAF3G0) with USG.

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 10:22 AM
WSJ weighs in (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123535148618845005.html) on Citi's wobbles and the ongoing bank bailout.


The crisis is triggering a deep re-examination of the way bank health is measured in the U.S. financial system. This complex exercise boils down to calculating various ratios of capital to a bank's total assets.


Until recently, tangible common equity (TCE) -- essentially a gauge of what common shareholders would get if an institution were dissolved -- has been one of the less prominent ways to measure a bank's vigor. TCE is also among the most conservative measures of financial health.
Bankers and regulators generally prefer to use what is known as "Tier 1" ratio of a bank's capital adequacy. It takes into account equity other than common stock. By Tier 1 measurements, most big banks, including Citigroup, appear healthy. Citigroup's Tier 1 ratio is 11.8%, well above the level needed to be classified as well-capitalized.


By contrast, most banks' TCE ratios indicate severe weakness. Citigroup's TCE ratio stood at about 1.5% of assets at Dec. 31, well below the 3% level that investors regard as safe.


The regulators' new focus on TCE represents an important shift. The government's recent injections into hundreds of institutions were predicated on the idea that Tier 1 was key. Because the investments weren't in the form of common stock, they didn't affect the companies' TCE ratios.

Wild Cobra
02-23-2009, 10:55 AM
It's pretty sad when the DC politicians want to follow the examples of Chavez.

MannyIsGod
02-23-2009, 10:56 AM
It's pretty sad when the DC politicians want to follow the examples of Chavez.

:lmao

Or the Swedes - you know - where it worked?

99.938530583 percentile.

LOL

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 11:09 AM
:lmao

Or the Swedes - you know - where it worked?

99.938530583 percentile.

LOLThe Swedes took control and held enforceable warrants. Our are subject to further negotiation, and the ownership share in this case falls short of a controlling stake. This is a half-assed measure designed to shore up Citi's botom line ahead of Treasury's advertised "stress tests" and unscores how crappy Citi is right now. Didn't we already guarantee some of their debts? Citi is an effing turd.

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 11:18 AM
WSJ op-ed (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123535183265845013.html) on nationalization.

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 11:23 AM
In The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090309/ferguson_johnson?rel=hp_picks).

Winehole23
02-23-2009, 11:26 AM
Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23krugman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion).

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 08:38 AM
William Isaac, against (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123543631794154467.html).In 1984 Isaac closed down Continental, then the nation's 7th largest bank. It had less than 2% of the nation's banking assets at the time. The process took six years and 1.6 billion dollars from the public purse.

Today the top ten banks hold about 2/3 of the assets.



So, you might wonder, what's so bad about nationalization? It appears to have worked well at Continental.


First, any bank we nationalize will be forced, both by the regulators and the marketplace, to shrink dramatically. We are in the middle of a serious economic downturn where deflation is a realistic concern. Do we really think that dismantling our largest banks would be helpful? I don't.


What's more, we won't be able to stop at nationalizing one or two banks. If we start down that path, the short sellers and other speculators that the Securities and Exchange Commission still refuses to re-regulate will target for destruction one after another of our largest banks.


Second, for nationalization to work there needs to be a reasonable exit strategy. In the case of Continental, we had scores of options for returning the bank to private hands, including a public offering or a sale to any number of domestic and foreign banks and investor groups.


Today, who has the wherewithal, legal authority, and desire to purchase our largest banks? No one comes to mind, particularly if we rule out foreign groups, which I suspect would not pass muster due to national security concerns about ceding that much power over our economy to foreign powers.


Third, who will run these companies when we dismiss the existing senior managers and board members? We had significant difficulties attracting quality people to Continental even without today's limits on compensation.


So-called experts frequently cite the success of the Swedish experience with bank nationalization in the last decade. Nothing could be less relevant. Sweden's population, economy and banking system are roughly the size of Ohio's. Sweden's largest bank is roughly 10% the size of each of our three largest banking companies. Moreover, Sweden nationalized only Gota Bank -- and that was after it had already collapsed.


The Obama administration should declare that nationalization of any major bank is off the table; that the government stands behind our entire banking system; and that our banks will continue to receive a nonvoting form of equity capital, such as convertible preferred stock, from the government to the extent needed. :wow Yesterday's joint announcement to this effect by the Federal Reserve, FDIC, the Comptroller of the Currency, and the Treasury is a critical step toward healing our banking system and economy. Well done.

Purple & Gold
02-25-2009, 08:46 AM
Govt should buy back the companys they have privatized in the pass which are of national interest....water/energy utilitys, transport system.

If the banks dont improve there trade practices, the govt will step in and nationalize a bank of their own. They will be the regulator and enforce new measures into the market at the fed reserve banks jurisdiction...no monopoly bs.

Increased govt spending into infrastructure that creates jobs. Education, healthcare, housing....

:clap :clap


decrease tax payable and payroll for individuals/companys.
increase rebates/credits to allow more money in consumers wallets to spend as an incentive.

:nope doesn't work short term fix only while raising the deficit even more. Tax breaks and tax rebates are the downfall of the Obama plan. Short term/superficial boost only does not stimulate the economy. Bush tried it and failed horribly.

TDMVPDPOY
02-25-2009, 10:06 AM
:clap :clap



:nope doesn't work short term fix only while raising the deficit even more. Tax breaks and tax rebates are the downfall of the Obama plan. Short term/superficial boost only does not stimulate the economy. Bush tried it and failed horribly.

well no one is spending atm

u dont cut company tax, companys wont spend or invest into new projects cause it aint feasible....

cut payroll tax so they have enough to keep their workers...

rebates and credits only work depending what is given out to them << then again all of this will be means tested to be qualified...

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 10:13 AM
u dont cut company tax, companys wont spend or invest into new projects cause it aint feasible....If Bernanke is right about the economy hitting bottom in 2009 and recovering in 2010 it's marginally reasonable.

What are the chances?

TDMVPDPOY
02-25-2009, 10:31 AM
If Bernanke is right about the economy hitting bottom in 2009 and recovering in 2010 it's marginally reasonable.

What do you think, TDMVPDPOY?

recovery in 2010? foreseeable? i dunno....

it depends on at what point the economy and market going to stall at a stand still and start the growth process in 2009....

govt like to sugarcoat we are not in the shitters yet, but just wait till the stimulus doesnt work, reason being either ppl aint spending the checks or the checks arent circulating within the economy...no trickle effect.

consumer confidence is at a all time low atm, can obama guaranteed jobs are safe and not loss or industries shuttin operations and moving offshore?

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 10:42 AM
consumer confidence is at a all time low atm, can obama guaranteed jobs are safe and not loss or industries shuttin operations and moving offshore?No. Obama can try to penalize outsourcing or give an incentive for the reverse, but private money will do what it likes.

TDMVPDPOY
02-25-2009, 10:59 AM
No. Obama can try to penalize outsourcing or give an incentive for the reverse, but private money will do what it likes.

i say you leave foreign tax alone, dont do anything to it yet...but govt should increase tariffs to fuck up these company's who are moving everything offshore.


i see why the govt dont wanna see these insolvent businesses go down the drain, cause of the implication of rising unemployment and ppl jumping onto welfare which will hurt the federal budget. I prefer to see these comps declare bankrupt, all employees entitlements are guaranteed, if theres any hahaha. Not everyone will go on welfare, but if they do it will probably be for about 6months and they're cut from it. Instead of keeping injecting more money into a failed business which continues to ask for more funds down the road.

if the old doesnt go, how would the new come? this is where fresh starts should be invested into...like another bank owned by govt with no debts, or any form of company with no debts.....

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 11:17 AM
if the old doesnt go, how would the new come?

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and my country unready for the creative destruction that is about to be unleashed. Selah (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/selah%20word%20origin). Fortissimo.

Your point about fresh starts finds an echo in Thomas Friedman's article (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/401149_friedman24.html) yesterday.

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Instead of keeping injecting more money into a failed business which continues to ask for more funds down the road.When you say this it's like people think you're trying to sell them wooden shoes or something. Whenever I say it people seem not to pay attention. C'est la vie.

TDMVPDPOY
02-25-2009, 11:41 AM
When you say this it's like people think you're trying to sell them wooden shoes or something. Whenever I say it people seem not to pay attention. C'est la vie.

its like some rich person donating money to the unfortunate, you can help them today, but what about tommarow when they come back for more....

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 11:49 AM
its like some rich person donating money to the unfortunate, you can help them today, but what about tommarow when they come back for more....The bible says you're supposed to say yes to any reasonable request regardless.

Winehole23
02-25-2009, 01:09 PM
It's pretty sad when the DC politicians want to follow the examples of Chavez.Apparently, WC forgot that he already said (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3137558&postcount=22) it was a good idea.