Ric Bucher thinks Duncan deserves MVP

[ManuTP9]

I was just watching SportsCenter and Ric said Kobe or Tim Duncan deserve it. :flag:

[FreeMason]

Damnit. Spurs are in for another long losing streak pretty soon.

The attention the Spurs have gotten in the last couple weeks is nearing cautious levels. :(

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL that's the funniest sig I've seen in a while..straight to the point..

[MoSpur]

I think he should receive serious consideration

[MarHill]

Yeah I just heard him mentioned that on SC!!!

[EricB]

Maybe if he threw chalk in the air and flexed his muscles like a dumbass, then maybe he might get a vote.

[DPG21920]

Or if he yelled "anything is possibleeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

[HarlemHeat37]

Timmy will get his usual 4th-5th place votes, which is fine by me..he already has 2 MVPs, which is in great company..even Shaq only has 1, which is kind of ridiculous if you think about it..while Nash has 2..

[ManuTP9]

Timmy will get his usual 4th-5th place votes, which is fine by me..he already has 2 MVPs, which is in great company..even Shaq only has 1, which is kind of ridiculous if you think about it..while Nash has 2..

damn haha that is funny that shaq has 1

[vander]

LOL that's the funniest sig I've seen in a while..straight to the point..

I thought it was determined that the chick was just trying to scam Kobe, still calling him a rapist seems juvenile :rolleyes

[xtremesteven33]

Duncan should be the 2nd leading canidate behind Kobe in the West.

[StoneBuddha]

I think he should receive serious consideration

Anyone have a history of where Duncan's finished in MVP voting over the years? I remember looking back a few years and being amazed at how well he's done over the years. Consistently in the top 3-4, but I guess that's what happens if you make all nba first team 8 years in a row.

[EricB]

I thought it was determined that the chick was just trying to scam Kobe, still calling him a rapist seems juvenile :rolleyes

I'd say the marks on her body and other evidence say otherwise.

[ManuTP9]

I thought it was determined that the chick was just trying to scam Kobe, still calling him a rapist seems juvenile :rolleyes

if thats what you believe

[csr3159]

I hope he win MVP. That will be sweet!!! Not many NBA player with 3 MVP awards.

[Shastafarian]

This title is pretty misleading. Bucher said Duncan is one guy who isn't talked about who should be considered. He thinks Kobe deserves it right now.

[200 miles]

Or if he yelled "anything is possibleeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

or if he had three other versions of himself: an old man, a little kid,
and mr. GQ

:rolleyes

[MarHill]

This title is pretty misleading. Bucher said Duncan is one guy who isn't talked about who should be considered. He thinks Kobe deserves it right now.

That's correct!

I heard the interview and he said TD should be mentioned in the conversation for MVP.

[Rapper]

In my point of view

actually Timmy deserves MVP every season.

[vander]

I'd say the marks on her body and other evidence say otherwise.

and I'd say you are misinformed, or have purposely forgotten most of the actual evidence.

[Fabbs]

Dunks was the RealMVP from 2002-2007 but it's clearly Lebron now.

[EricB]

and I'd say you are misinformed, or have purposely forgotten most of the actual evidence.


Yeah I guess police reports can lie.

[vander]

Yeah I guess police reports can lie.

maybe misinformed was the wrong word, looks like uninformed fits better, very little of the evidence other than her testimony incriminated Kobe.

[HarlemHeat37]

there wasn't "actual" evidence to say Kobe didn't do it..the only people that really know are Kobe Bryant and the poor woman..

I believe the woman though..Kobe has a history of being a POS..even in that situation, he ratted out Shaq for absolutely no reason..basically said, "If I'm going down, I might as well take others with me"..even Phil Jackson said he wasn't surprised when he heard the allegations LOL..

you obviously know it's very possible for Kobe to have just paid her off..she probably got paid off either way to make the case go away, but it's possible for other reasons..

anyways, enough about that..let's talk about an actual class act, Tim Duncan..Duncan is currently #2 in active players for "MVP shares", behind Shaq..this will change soon though, since Duncan will have another good finish this year, and Shaq won't..the rest of the list are well behind the 2 of them, which is obvious, since they are easily the 2 best players of this generation..

[Galileo]

In my point of view

actually Timmy deserves MVP every season.

I agree. Tim's been the most valuable player in the NBA since 1999.

Without Tim, the Spurs would have no rebounding or shotblocking on D, and no post-up/inside-out offense.

[StoneBuddha]

anyways, enough about that..let's talk about an actual class act, Tim Duncan..Duncan is currently #2 in active players for "MVP shares", behind Shaq..this will change soon though, since Duncan will have another good finish this year, and Shaq won't..the rest of the list are well behind the 2 of them, which is obvious, since they are easily the 2 best players of this generation..

Can you elaborate on what "MVP shares" are?

[Thompson]

there wasn't "actual" evidence to say Kobe didn't do it..the only people that really know are Kobe Bryant and the poor woman..

you obviously know it's very possible for Kobe to have just paid her off..she probably got paid off either way to make the case go away, but it's possible for other reasons..


If you sleep with a girl and she later says you raped her, what evidence can you have that you didn't?

As far as 'buying her off,' if someone raped you would you pocket the cash and go about your business? I like how you acknowledge that the only people who really know are Kobe and the 'poor woman.' If she took money to shut up about it, one way or the other I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for her.

I don't really know what happened either, but given what little I do know about the situation, it seems more likely to me that she was trying to get rich quick; I have difficulty imagining someone being raped and telling the world about it, then shutting up for some cash.

Kobe might be a jerk and a rival, but that doesn't mean he's a rapist.

[Galileo]

Can you elaborate on what "MVP shares" are?

Career Leaders and Records for MVP Award Shares
Leaders and Records: Career ▪ Active

Click on the Player for career statistics and accomplishments.
Active players are listed in bold.
Members of the Hall of Fame are marked with an asterisk (*).

NBA/ABA
Rank Player MVP Shares
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.203
10. David Robinson 3.123

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

These are the only players with 3 or more MVP award shares. The chart includes all 244 players who have recieved an MVP vote in NBA history.

Notice the big gap between # 9 and below. The top 9 looks close to a consensus list of the 9 best players of all time (the mailman being the exception because he never won a ring and didn't elevate in the playoffs).

Here is the definition of an MVP Award Share:

Award Share
The formula is (award points) / (maximum number of award points). For example, in the 2002-03 MVP voting Tim Duncan had 962 points out of a possible 1190. His MVP award share is 962 / 1190 = 0.81.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

[StoneBuddha]

Awesome thanks! Cool site.

[Galileo]

Tim Duncan leads the NBA in 20-10-5 games, as in 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists. He has nine such games this season. Not bad for a guy not defined by stats.

The reality is that Tim Duncan is the only complete, dominating big man in the NBA and is the most valuable player. KG is close, but he is slowing down with age, and never had the post up skills of Tim.

Wanna know how important good big men are in the NBA? Just look at the hoopla here over the potential Rasheed Wallace trade. Wallace old and nothing compared to Tim, yet everyone knows here how valuable 'Sheed would be to the Spurs, he would make them instant favorites to win the NBA title.

TVP!

[TwelveGs210]

I thought it was determined that the chick was just trying to scam Kobe, still calling him a rapist seems juvenile :rolleyes

lol you seem pretty offended @ that, sounds like a one rapist defending another..

[galvatron3000]

Timmy will get his usual 4th-5th place votes, which is fine by me..he already has 2 MVPs, which is in great company..even Shaq only has 1, which is kind of ridiculous if you think about it..while Nash has 2..


He only has 1 because of the timing of when the MVP votes are in, before the playoffs so in essence he only deserve the 1 he got in 2000 which for the full season he was head and shoulder above everyone else, in 2001, 2002, 2003 and pre 2000 (other than 1999 which Timmy should have won but Malone did) he didn't deserve to be MVP, maybe mentioned but not the one.

[mystargtr34]

there wasn't "actual" evidence to say Kobe didn't do it..the only people that really know are Kobe Bryant and the poor woman..

I believe the woman though..Kobe has a history of being a POS..even in that situation, he ratted out Shaq for absolutely no reason..basically said, "If I'm going down, I might as well take others with me"..even Phil Jackson said he wasn't surprised when he heard the allegations LOL..

you obviously know it's very possible for Kobe to have just paid her off..she probably got paid off either way to make the case go away, but it's possible for other reasons..

anyways, enough about that..let's talk about an actual class act, Tim Duncan..Duncan is currently #2 in active players for "MVP shares", behind Shaq..this will change soon though, since Duncan will have another good finish this year, and Shaq won't..the rest of the list are well behind the 2 of them, which is obvious, since they are easily the 2 best players of this generation..

No, they found text messages sent by the girl the next day saying "I fucked Kobe" or something along those lines.

She was filled with seamen from about 20 other blokes aswell, so if Kobe came knockin she would of have her legs open before Kobe even saw her.

[Shastafarian]

I love seeing statements like, "She was filled with seamen from about 20 other blokes aswell, so if Kobe came knockin she would of have her legs open before Kobe even saw her." in a Tim Duncan thread and all, but can we stay on topic for just this once please?

[HarlemHeat37]

you guys are doing the EXACT same thing I'm doing though..you're speaking about the girl's character, so you're judging her from her actions in the past..

I'm judging Kobe's character from his history as well..he's a bad person..he's an adulterer, he tried to bring Shaq down with him for no reason, he throws teammates under the bus, he spoke out about Andrew Bynum on tape(when Bynum did nothing wrong)..Kobe's clearly a piece of shit..

is that girl a slut? apparently..is Kobe a piece of shit? clearly..so there's no actual evidence of whether or not it happened..the only 2 people that know were in the room..so it's up to you about who you believe..

Kobe is the one that put himself in that situation..so he deserves no sympathy..

-Shaq deserved the MVP more than Nash did in 2005 IMO..

[porscha]

:flag::flag:

[ATXSPUR]

you guys are doing the EXACT same thing I'm doing though..you're speaking about the girl's character, so you're judging her from her actions in the past..

I'm judging Kobe's character from his history as well..he's a bad person..he's an adulterer, he tried to bring Shaq down with him for no reason, he throws teammates under the bus, he spoke out about Andrew Bynum on tape(when Bynum did nothing wrong)..Kobe's clearly a piece of shit..

is that girl a slut? apparently..is Kobe a piece of shit? clearly..so there's no actual evidence of whether or not it happened..the only 2 people that know were in the room..so it's up to you about who you believe..

Kobe is the one that put himself in that situation..so he deserves no sympathy..

-Shaq deserved the MVP more than Nash did in 2005 IMO.. There is a huge difference between being an ass and a rapist. Is Kobe an ass? Certainly. But he doesn't have a long history of controversial encounters with women. This girl has a long history of being a slut. Citing that girl's past in this instance is like speaking of Tim Duncan's history in a discussion of best power forward alive. Bringing Kobe's history in this is like bringing Barry Sanders into a conversation about best power forward alive.

[HarlemHeat37]

when Phil Jackson was approached and told about the accusations of rape against Kobe, he said he wasn't surprised LOL..so what does that tell you?..

anyways..Kobe never hurting a woman in the past is irrelevant..every rapist started somewhere..

it has nothing to do with "having" to rape a woman..of course Kobe can get pussy without raping a woman..most of the time, raping somebody isn't for the pleasure of sexual intercourse, it's for the position of dominance..it's a mental thing..

[iggypop123]

duncan already has 2. 1 more than shaq. enough said. he doesnt deserve any more. the people that give credit to "our beloved" ginobli are the reason why duncan doesnt get credit. he has too much help for his numbers to mean anything

[hater]

did he forget about Lebron.

Duncan is #3 MVP candidate

[vander]

lol you seem pretty offended @ that, sounds like a one rapist defending another..

yep, you figured me out

[hater]

Career Leaders and Records for MVP Award Shares
Leaders and Records: Career ▪ Active

Click on the Player for career statistics and accomplishments.
Active players are listed in bold.
Members of the Hall of Fame are marked with an asterisk (*).

NBA/ABA
Rank Player MVP Shares
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.203
10. David Robinson 3.123

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

These are the only players with 3 or more MVP award shares. The chart includes all 244 players who have recieved an MVP vote in NBA history.

Notice the big gap between # 9 and below. The top 9 looks close to a consensus list of the 9 best players of all time (the mailman being the exception because he never won a ring and didn't elevate in the playoffs).

Here is the definition of an MVP Award Share:

Award Share
The formula is (award points) / (maximum number of award points). For example, in the 2002-03 MVP voting Tim Duncan had 962 points out of a possible 1190. His MVP award share is 962 / 1190 = 0.81.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

Somebody needs to show this to Faker fans. Who keep comparing Kobe to MJ :bang:bang

[Thompson]

when Phil Jackson was approached and told about the accusations of rape against Kobe, he said he wasn't surprised LOL..so what does that tell you?..

anyways..Kobe never hurting a woman in the past is irrelevant..every rapist started somewhere..

it has nothing to do with "having" to rape a woman..of course Kobe can get pussy without raping a woman..most of the time, raping somebody isn't for the pleasure of sexual intercourse, it's for the position of dominance..it's a mental thing..

I don't know the context to Phil Jackson saying he wasn't surprised (perhaps he meant he wasn't surprised someone would try to bring false charges in an attempt to get rich quick). The man spews garbage anytime he gets a mike anyway, he's a jackass. He's just about the last person whose words should be considered evidence of any sort.

As far as referencing the promiscuous nature of the woman, I never brought that up. You never answered my question, if you slept with a woman who consented, and a day or so later you were hauled in for questioning concerning her alleged rape, how would you prove you didn't rape her?

The previous poster who mentioned the text message showed just about the only evidence outside of each person's account that could be considered 'evidence.' If you were raped, would you be texting to your friends bragging that you had sex with a celebrity? Would you take money from the guy who raped you and agree to shut up about it? There is very little evidence outside of the two persons' testimonies, but what little there is supports Kobe's version of events.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

I wouldnt put Lebron in the equation just yet. He hasnt shown that he can consistently win games when he doesnt have his best team around him. Lebron puts up great stats but Kobe and Duncan can win games when their best teammates are out. Kobe without Gasol and Bynum can still win games regularly and make the playoffs.

Duncan without Manu and Parker still won games with a bunch of scrubs.

Why does Odom, Sasha and Ariza look so good? Kobe.

Why is no one complaining that Gasol is soft like tofu? Kobe

Why is R Mason suddenly the smartest free agent move? Duncan

Why is Bonner the most improved player this season? Duncan

How do retirees like Finley, Bowen, Horry, Thomas, Ferry, Elie, etc... (the list is very long) look so good as championship pieces? Duncan.

Duncan and Kobe can have shitty games but they will find way to make their teammates better and have a chance to win games.

Lebron hasnt shown me anything to that extent. Yes he wins some games but when he is shooting 9-27 on the night, Cavs lose most of those nights.

[Spursfan092120]

maybe misinformed was the wrong word, looks like uninformed fits better, very little of the evidence other than her testimony incriminated Kobe.

And I guess breaking one of the 10 Commandments in the Bible is ok, (Thou shalt not commit adultery)as long as he didn't break the other, less important law.

[Spursfan092120]

lol you seem pretty offended @ that, sounds like a one rapist defending another..

Dude..way too far on that one. Calling someone a rapist because he defends one is wrong...very wrong. Now, I think Kobe should be trounced through the mud, not because of raping a girl (which he may or may not have done), but because he committed adultery, which, by the way, is against the law in Colorado, law 18-6-501. So, even if the dude didn't rape the girl, he admitted, and everyone knows, he had sex with her. He still broke Colorado state law, and got away with it because he's Kobe Bryant. He should never be respected as a person. Period.

[Baseline]

The more pertinent question is, if you are the girl in question who is working at a hotel making no more than $15 an hour, and you are about to go on the stand in front of the universe in a high profile case against an extremely wealthy and popular athlete, and you are going to talk about every detail of what happened - rape or almost rape or whatever it was, and it was most certainly sex - and you realize that the defendant will have the best and most expensive attorneys money can buy, whereas you have a public defendant in a suit...then you are all of a sudden offered a large sum of money (meaning in excess of a million dollars) to drop the whole thing...then would you consider this alternative?

Of course you would.

The girl was paid money to drop the case. How much money I don't know, but I have a close friend who is a pretty notable documentary film producer, and she worked for about three months on a documentary about this case. She eventually abandoned it because she normally distributes through HBO, and they called her to do another project which took approximately 18 months to do. By then the case was dropped and that was that, although her desire to continue with the film was extremely high. My filmmaker friend is a rape victim herself, and has worked with rape victims for many years. She wanted very, very badly to make the film because she said that the type of onslaught this girl was receiving was even more harsh than she had thought it might be, and she knew that it would be considerable with Bryant being a popular athlete. However, she's in NY and isn't really a sports fan, so she was utterly shocked when she came to LA and heard what the average fan in the street was saying. Basically the girl was being tried in the court of public opinion all across the country, and for whatever reason - even though it was public knowledge that Bryant is an arrogant person and alpha male type - seemingly it never occurred to the vast majority of Los Angelinos that he was capable of doing such a thing...all because he can dunk a basketball with more flair than most. Well, she knows better, having studied the topic for a long, long time.

It was a ringing indictment of our society in many ways, and in particular with sports fans, and even more specifically, LA sports fans. Her whole purpose for the film was to bring attention to the fact that the women in these cases are the ones who are the victims, yet as soon as they open their mouths, they are victimized even moreso, and sometimes exponentially. Point is, it has been proven way too many times that it doesn't help matters to talk about it and try to prosecute. This is the sad truth in far too many cases. And it is obviously the wrong message to send, because it adds to the victims' natural desire to suppress the event/crime.

So even though a lot of posters on this site and others like to make frivolous jokes about this alleged rape and the victim, and how slutty she allegedly was, this case is not unlike tens of thousands of others that will happen this year...and we'll only hear about maybe 5% of them because the women will decide not to report the rape for some of the very same reasons we witnessed with the Bryant case. Rape is a violent crime which demolishes the psyche of the victim. The emotional makeup of a rape victim can rarely ever regain its previous levels. It is a hideous act, and is not the least bit funny in any sense of the word.

I didn't intend to make this a social platform, but since this is a thread about Tim Duncan and his superlative play this year, I found it exceedingly sad that Mr. Bryant's questionable behavior still enters into discussions and continues to taint the landscape of a beautiful sport.

The reality is that Mr. Bryant was never tried in a court of law. However, his alleged victim was most certainly tried in a court of public opinion, and at least on this board, is still sitting on the stand.

[Spursfan092120]

The more pertinent question is, if you are the girl in question who is working at a hotel making no more than $15 an hour, and you are about to go on the stand in front of the universe in a high profile case against an extremely wealthy and popular athlete, and you are going to talk about every detail of what happened - rape or almost rape or whatever it was, and it was most certainly sex - and you realize that the defendant will have the best and most expensive attorneys money can buy, whereas you have a public defendant in a suit...then you are all of a sudden offered a large sum of money (meaning in excess of a million dollars) to drop the whole thing...then would you consider this alternative?

Of course you would.

The girl was paid money to drop the case. How much money I don't know, but I have a close friend who is a pretty notable documentary film producer, and she worked for about three months on a documentary about this case. She eventually abandoned it because she normally distributes through HBO, and they called her to do another project which took approximately 18 months to do. By then the case was dropped and that was that, although her desire to continue with the film was extremely high. My filmmaker friend is a rape victim herself, and has worked with rape victims for many years. She wanted very, very badly to make the film because she said that the type of onslaught this girl was receiving was even more harsh than she had thought it might be, and she knew that it would be considerable with Bryant being a popular athlete. However, she's in NY and isn't really a sports fan, so she was utterly shocked when she came to LA and heard what the average fan in the street was saying. Basically the girl was being tried in the court of public opinion all across the country, and for whatever reason - even though it was public knowledge that Bryant is an arrogant person and alpha male type - seemingly it never occurred to the vast majority of Los Angelinos that he was capable of doing such a thing...all because he can dunk a basketball with more flair than most. Well, she knows better, having studied the topic for a long, long time.

It was a ringing indictment of our society in many ways, and in particular with sports fans, and even more specifically, LA sports fans. Her whole purpose for the film was to bring attention to the fact that the women in these cases are the ones who are the victims, yet as soon as they open their mouths, they are victimized even moreso, and sometimes exponentially. Point is, it has been proven way too many times that it doesn't help matters to talk about it and try to prosecute. This is the sad truth in far too many cases. And it is obviously the wrong message to send, because it adds to the victims' natural desire to suppress the event/crime.

So even though a lot of posters on this site and others like to make frivolous jokes about this alleged rape and the victim, and how slutty she allegedly was, this case is not unlike tens of thousands of others that will happen this year...and we'll only hear about maybe 5% of them because the women will decide not to report the rape for some of the very same reasons we witnessed with the Bryant case. Rape is a violent crime which demolishes the psyche of the victim. The emotional makeup of a rape victim can rarely ever regain its previous levels. It is a hideous act, and is not the least bit funny in any sense of the word.

I didn't intend to make this a social platform, but since this is a thread about Tim Duncan and his superlative play this year, I found it exceedingly sad that Mr. Bryant's questionable behavior still enters into discussions and continues to taint the landscape of a beautiful sport.

The reality is that Mr. Bryant was never tried in a court of law. However, his alleged victim was most certainly tried in a court of public opinion, and at least on this board, is still sitting on the stand.

:clap:clap:clap
Phenomenal post...That was a great read.

[Thompson]

And I guess breaking one of the 10 Commandments in the Bible is ok, (Thou shalt not commit adultery)as long as he didn't break the other, less important law.

What? What other 'less important' law? And who said adultery is o.k., they were just saying it was not the same as rape. Kobe is an adulterer, and that is deplorable in itself.

As for Baseline's argument, no, I would not seriously consider it. How could you take money from someone who raped you (have some self respect)? If they were to walk, they very likely could/would rape someone else, and I would feel at least partly culpable for that because I didn't do all I could to stop them. That's not to say it would be easy.

And what of the text message that she sent out to her friend that said she ****** Kobe? Is it typical for rape victims to brag to their friends that they slept with their rapist? She was tried in the court of public opinion, and (outside of L.A.) so was Kobe.

If you have some evidence against Kobe's version other than 'she said he did, and he's a jerk and an adulterer,' please let me know what it is. Otherwise, the only evidence we have suggests that he didn't. Innocent until proven guilty, and there's little to no evidence and certainly no proof that he did rape her.

[TDMVPDPOY]

NBA/ABA
Rank Player MVP Shares
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.203
10. David Robinson 3.123

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


There is one player missing from that lists, and ppl hold him above drob and duncan....hakeem olajuwon....

[Galileo]

There is one player missing from that lists, and ppl hold him above drob and duncan....hakeem olajuwon....

11. Moses Malone* 2.873
12. Kevin Garnett 2.752
13. Bob Pettit* 2.628
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611

Hakeem was not a consistent & elite team player until 92-93. He became an elite team player just before his athleticism started to erode. That's why he didn't get more MVP votes.

Hakeem waited until his 9th season to become a team player, while Jordan did it in his 4th season.

Therein lies the difference between Hakkem and Jordan.

Duncan was a team player from day 1, and an elite team player by year 2.

Lebron James, while always a good team player, has made the step this season, his 6th, to elite status.