Italy - U.S. Relations Strained by Shooting of Agent, Hostage [Archive]

Nbadan

03-06-2005, 05:16 AM

The shooting was the worst diplomatic incident between Italy and the United States since 1998, when a U.S. Marines jet flying recklessly low and fast cut a ski lift cable, killing 20 people.

<snip>

The agent had helped free Sgrena a month after she had been kidnapped and held hostage. Sgrena returned to Rome on Saturday. Calipari's coffin will follow.

"The hardest moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," Sgrena's long-time companion quoted her as saying on her flight back to Rome.

Such poignant words are fueling national rage.

Berlusconi, whom the opposition accuses of taking orders from Washington, put on a brave face but leading newspaper Corriere della Sera cited political sources as saying he was furious.

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050305/ts_nm/iraq_italy_relations_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480)

The agent who was killed had a wife and two kids. W took a whole 5 minutes out of his day yesterday to call the widow and 'express his concern', a whole 5 minutes. This whole incident is a metaphor for the entire Iraq War.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050305/capt.xas10103051429.italy_iraq_hostage_xas101.jpg

Rosa Maria Calipari, widow of Italian Police officer Nicola Calipari, center , leaves her house in Rome, Saturday, March 5, 2005. Calipari was killed in Iraq (news - web sites) by fire coming from an US armoured vehicle while he was escorting in a car Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport after her liberation. (AP Photo/Angelo

Nbadan

03-06-2005, 06:04 AM

As you can well imagine, scenarios about what actually happened differed...

The US Army claimed the Italians' vehicle had been seen as a threat because it was travelling at speed and failed to stop at the checkpoint despite warning shots being fired by the soldiers. A State Department official in Washington said the Italians had failed to inform the military of Sgrena's release.

Italian reconstruction of the incident is significantly different. Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour.

The Observer (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1431436,00.html)

When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed their former Sunni rebel stronghold adding fire to the speculation that U.S. troops continue to target journalists.

Clandestino

03-06-2005, 08:41 AM

italy hadn't notified the u.s. about their plans... they failed to stop at a checkpoint... and she would have no fucking idea about how many bullets hit her car.. have you ever heard a automatic gun fire???

and the safety of the american troops is first... you just had a car fail to stop when ordered to so..of course, you are going to secure the area FIRST!

dan, you're honestly posting dumber views every day!

smackdaddy11

03-06-2005, 04:20 PM

The commie reporter is really exaggerating the story to benefit her anti-war stance.

300-400 Rounds? She wouldn't be giving any interviews if this was remotely true.

She would be a spaghetti strainer.

Aggie Hoopsfan

03-06-2005, 07:03 PM

You're a fucking 'tard Dan.

300-400 rounds with a .50 caliber and there wouldn't be a car left, much less anyone to tell a grossly exaggerated anti-war propaganda story about it.

And now you're bagging on Bush for taking five minutes out of his day to call this commie bitch who was too stupid to tell her driver to slow down so they didn't get shot to hell.

I'm surprised you're not bitching about Bush not taking the time out of his day to call the families of our war victims.

Nbadan

03-07-2005, 02:15 AM

More information is creeping in on this incredible story...

However, according to the daily Corriere della Sera, the Italian intelligence officer who drove the car and who survived the attack insisted they were travelling at just 40 to 50 kilometres an hour (25 to 30 mph).

He was quoted as saying: "All of a sudden, a searchlight went on. Immediately afterwards, the shots began. The fire lasted for at least 10 seconds."

The team that fetched Sgrena had been in direct contact by telephone with the prime minister's office in Rome, where Mr Berlusconi, senior intelligence officers and the editor of Sgrena's newspaper were all celebrating her release with champagne. Corriere della Sera said that, after screaming at the Americans to stop, the intelligence officer called up again. "The Americans have shot at us," he shouted. "Nicola is dead. I have a machine gun pointing at me."

<snip>

Italian prosecutors are working on the assumption they are investigating a murder.

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432040,00.html)

Nbadan

03-07-2005, 02:18 AM

Also, Sgrena's piece today describing what she personally witnessed..

My truth (La mia verità)

Giuliana Sgrena
Translated by Eva Milan, ZabrinskyPoint

March 6, 2005 (from Il Manifesto) — I am still in the darkness. Last Friday was the most dramatic day of my life since I was abducted.

I had just spoken with my abductors, who for days kept telling me I would be released. So I was living in wait. They said things that I would understand only later. They talked of transfer related problems. I had learned to understand which way the wind blew from the attitude of my two "sentinels," the two fellows who watched over me every day—especially one of them, who attended to my requests, was incredibly bold. In the attempt to understand what was going on, I provocatively asked him if he was happy because I would go away or because I would stay. I was surprised and happy when, for the first time, he told me, "I only know you will go, but I don't know when."

<snip>

They came back: "We'll escort you, but don't give signals of your presence, otherwise the Americans might intervene." That was not what wanted to hear. It was the happiest and also the most dangerous moment. If we ran into someone, meaning American troops, there would be an exchange of fire, and my captors were ready and they would have responded. I had to have my eyes covered. I was already getting used to a temporary blindness.

<snip>

Then they got out of the car. I stayed in that condition of immobility and blindness. My eyes were stuffed with cotton, and covered by sunglasses. I was motionless. I thought . . . what do I do? Should I start counting the passing seconds to another condition, the one of freedom? I had just started counting when I heard a friendly voice: "Giuliana, Giuliana, this is Nicola, don't worry, I've talked to Gabriele Polo, don't worry, you're free."

<snip>

The driver started shouting we were Italians, "We are Italians! We are Italians . . ." Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me. I must have felt physical pain, I didn't know why. But I had a sudden thought: I recalled my abductors' words. They said they were deeply committed to releasing me, but that I had to be careful because "the Americans don't want you to return." Back then, as soon as they had said that, I had judged their words to be meaningless and ideological. In that moment such words risked to take the taste of the most bitter truth away. I can't tell the rest yet.

Link (http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10180)

Aggie Hoopsfan

03-07-2005, 02:20 AM

the Italian intelligence officer who drove the car

Yeah, that guy's gonna be objective about how fast the car was going.

Useruser666

03-07-2005, 08:51 AM

I wish Dan would jump out at a few local cops and yell SURPRISE!!! a few times and see what happens.

smackdaddy11

03-07-2005, 09:26 AM

NBADumbass taking the word of a communist over the word of our soldiers.

Dan, I'm really interested in Castros opinion on the subject. Use your speed dial and get a quote. If he is busy just call your homie Chavez.

Clandestino

03-07-2005, 09:29 AM

and this bitch is trying to make the ABDUCTORS sound like good people! calling them sentinels!!! stfu!

Clandestino

03-07-2005, 09:54 AM

oh, one more thing.. who cares how fast the vehicle was moving....5 mph or 50mph.. they were told to STOP!!! they didn't... then they were made to stop.

Useruser666

03-07-2005, 10:09 AM

I don't see what point your trying to make Dan. Are you suggesting the US is having troops fire on journalists on purpose? I mean how is is this any wrose than a FF incident?

GoldToe

03-07-2005, 10:34 AM

Well I'm not going to boycott any of that delicious Italian food.

Clandestino

03-07-2005, 01:15 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Monday rejected an Italian journalist's suggestion that she was targeted by U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) in a shooting in which she was wounded and an Italian secret service agent was killed.

"I think it's absurd to make any such suggestion that our men and women in uniform deliberately targeted innocent civilians. That's just absurd," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

The journalist, Giuliana Sgrena, who writes for the communist daily Il Manifesto, had suggested she and the Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, were targeted because the United States opposes Italy's practice of negotiating with hostage takers.

McClellan said the road to the Baghdad airport where the incident took place "is one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq," a place where suicide bombings and various other attacks have taken place.

"It is a dangerous road and it is a combat zone that our coalition forces are in, and oftentimes they have to make split-second decisions to protect their own security and we regret this incident, and we are going to fully investigate what exactly occurred," McClellan said.

He said President Bush (news - web sites) considered Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi a good friend and has assured him there will be a full investigation into the incident.

this bitch is dumb.. if the u.s. had wanted her dead, they would've killed her...

JoeChalupa

03-07-2005, 01:17 PM

Things like this happen during war.

xrayzebra

03-07-2005, 05:26 PM

Things like this happen during war.

This didn't just happen, some Italian intel slug thought his stuff didn't
stink and told someone, screw the checkpoint we are taking her home.
And now they are suffering the consequences. You play the game, you
go by the rules. The "lady" got her scoop afterall. Now the medial will
have a field day. Bye the way has anyone seen anything about
Jackson or Martha or the Pope today.......just checking. :blah

JoeChalupa

03-07-2005, 05:45 PM

Oh, so it didn't happen?

My point being that war isn't perfect and innocent people die. Wrong, right or indifferent.....death happens.

xrayzebra

03-07-2005, 05:54 PM

No it did happen. What I said was some intelligence agent thought he
was so important and had done such a wonderful thing he didn't have to
live by the rules and thought he could just run the checkpoint. And
others paid the price of his argorance, as well as himself.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 05:12 AM

News reports previously quoted Italians involved: US at airport

According to the Italians, the Americans were informed about their mission and in fact were waiting for the agents' return with their passenger at the airport. This UPI international corrspondent's article refers to what I previously read:

"On Saturday, a SISMI officer who was also traveling with Calipari was quoted in the Italian media as saying that the car was moving quite slowly and cautiously, and that there was no indication that they were at a checkpoint. The Milan paper Il Corriere della Sera also reported that not only was Sgrena's release known to the Americans, but a U.S. Army colonel was among those waiting for the journalist at Baghdad airport to see her off.

Another official who asked not to be named told United Press International by phone from Rome that the feeling in Italian official circles was that someone with as much experience of conditions in Iraq as Nicola Calipari would hardly have attempted to crash a U.S. military checkpoint." http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050307-...

And another article from the UK:

"Italy is well aware that its habit of paying large sums to secure the release of its nationals is disapproved of by the Americans and British. All negotiations are therefore carried on in secret. But at Baghdad airport Mr Calipari explained at the US headquarters what his team had come to do. It was arranged that an American colonel would be on hand at the airport when Ms Sgrena arrived for her flight back to Italy. By the time the team had rented a four-wheel drive it was already 5pm." http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.j...

So if the US military in charge of the airport knew that the Italian intelligence agents were going to be returning to the airport and were waiting with other Italians for their return (especially with a released hostage of note who was being returned home to a US ally nation), wasn't it their responsibility to "coordinate" with the US ground troops patrolling the road and the manning the checkpoints?

Gerryatrics

03-08-2005, 07:19 AM

How is it that a slow moving, unarmored car is targeted by US Tanks or armored vehicles, is sprayed with 300 to 400 rounds of ammunition (most likely .50 caliber... think really big holes) and only one of the three or four occupants is killed after being hit by one bullet. And the person "targeted" only receives a minor gash on her shoulder from a small piece of shrapnel? Oh yeah, and she says she personally picked handfuls of bullets of the seat(Il Manifesto, the U.S., and the death of Calipari (http://www.corriere.it/english/editoriali/Galli_della_Loggia/070305.shtml))... Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

On Saturday, a SISMI officer who was also traveling with Calipari was quoted in the Italian media as saying that the car was moving quite slowly and cautiously

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell.

The car was going fast enough to be in danger of losing control, but not fast enough to possibly alarm a US checkpoint or convoy?

So if the US military in charge of the airport knew that the Italian intelligence agents were going to be returning to the airport and were waiting with other Italians for their return (especially with a released hostage of note who was being returned home to a US ally nation), wasn't it their responsibility to "coordinate" with the US ground troops patrolling the road and the manning the checkpoints?

So you think this mysterious colonel should have contacted all the troops in the area between downtown Baghdad and the airport and told them not to fire on any cars that refused to stop at a checkpoint because they might be Italian? Brilliant idea that. And maybe instead of firing guns at terrorists who are attacking them, US troops should throw flowers and politely ask the terrorists to stop shooting at them.
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/05.03.06.RulesofEngage-X.gif

Useruser666

03-08-2005, 10:18 AM

One other point of note. 50 caliber bullets don't get stuck in car seats.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 11:28 AM

One other point of note. 50 caliber bullets don't get stuck in car seats.

Your assuming these were all 50 cal shots fired. The incident report clearly states that there was no 'official' checkpoint at the point of the incident, although the U.S. has recently changed it stance and called it a 'strategic checkpoint' - read ambush(?). Either way, there could have been small arms fire.

What do you call it when you immediately start firing on a approaching car without giving the driver a chance to escape the situation?

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 11:31 AM

The car was going fast enough to be in danger of losing control, but not fast enough to possibly alarm a US checkpoint or convoy?

Why would a Italian agent who knows how dangerous these roads can be, be traveling at a high rate of speed and not know the correct procedure when approaching a U.S. military convoy in such a situation?

More than likely the accident was caused by the condition of the roads than by the speed they were traveling.

CommanderMcBragg

03-08-2005, 11:37 AM

What do you call it when you immediately start firing on a approaching car without giving the driver a chance to escape the situation?

Doing your duty? I don't blame our boys for protecting themselves.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 11:40 AM

And the car these hundreds of shots were supposedly fired into? Oh, they can't find it now??? How fucking convenient!

<snip>

The military contends it was uninformed about the progress of the negotions for her release, and was unaware Sgrena was on her way. But "the Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Scolari says.

The US has the troops first firing warning shots, then shooting into the engine block to stop the vehicle. The Italians say they were hit by hundreds of bullets. The Observer reports up to 400 rounds struck their car "from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour." Sgrena's car, the US claims, is now "lost," and cannot be inspected.)

Rigorous Institution (http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-of-dumb.html)

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 11:46 AM

Doing your duty? I don't blame our boys for protecting themselves.

There was a PBS Frontline episode this past week that covered some American Army men in Iraq. These guys traveled those roadways everyday on patrol. They mentioned a number of times in the episode that the road to Baghdad airport was the most dangerous in the world. No new news there. The interesting point in the Frontline story was that the patrols shot first and asked questions later. Several times in the story these armored patrols fired at approaching vehicles ... what decision making tactics did they use?: If the troops flashed lights, honked horns, shot warning shots ... and the approaching vehicle kept coming ... BLAMMY ... the vehicle is history. What I failed to understand is what the car's driver was supposed to do ... from what I saw, the "warning" period took all of 3 or 4 seconds, and a car's driver would have no chance to make a decision about what to do before becoming machine gun bait.

Another interesting point in the episode was when the Americans were fired upon from the street. Three armored vehicles returned the fire ... so many shots it was unbelievable. Then they noticed a taxi all beat to crap and shot up and a dying civilian in the backseat. The army guys started asking, "Who did this? How did this happen? This is terrible!" Well, duh ... all these g.i.'s started firing every which way at anything that moved, and they had to wonder who shot up the taxi?

So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 11:58 AM

There was a PBS Frontline episode this past week that covered some American Army men in Iraq. These guys traveled those roadways everyday on patrol. They mentioned a number of times in the episode that the road to Baghdad airport was the most dangerous in the world. No new news there. The interesting point in the Frontline story was that the patrols shot first and asked questions later. Several times in the story these armored patrols fired at approaching vehicles ... what decision making tactics did they use?: If the troops flashed lights, honked horns, shot warning shots ... and the approaching vehicle kept coming ... BLAMMY ... the vehicle is history. What I failed to understand is what the car's driver was supposed to do ... from what I saw, the "warning" period took all of 3 or 4 seconds, and a car's driver would have no chance to make a decision about what to do before becoming machine gun bait.

Another interesting point in the episode was when the Americans were fired upon from the street. Three armored vehicles returned the fire ... so many shots it was unbelievable. Then they noticed a taxi all beat to crap and shot up and a dying civilian in the backseat. The army guys started asking, "Who did this? How did this happen? This is terrible!" Well, duh ... all these g.i.'s started firing every which way at anything that moved, and they had to wonder who shot up the taxi?

So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.

also, if the intel agent knew about the checkpoint he should have driven slowly..and once he was warned with flashing lights or anything he should have known to stop...

her story has so much bullshit in it you can take anything she has said seriously. most checkpoints have at least one 50 cal. even if only 100 shots had come from the 50 cal everyone in the car would have been dead or mortally wounded.. especially if the 300 other shots had come from m-16s.. they both are very accurate...and if you 400 shots hit the car, and only one died???? come on.. not very likely...

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:00 PM

In an interview with the BBC's Newshour programme, freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena began by describing the conditions in which she had been held hostage for a month.

The condition of life was not bad from the material point of view but I was in a position of risk and so you can imagine it was not easy, it was very difficult and very hard to spend the days as prisoner in Iraq.

What did your captors tell you when you were hostage?

That I needed to help them to ask [Silvio] Berlusconi to withdraw the troops. They saw all what happens in Italy, demonstrations against the occupation, demonstrations for my liberation. And so they aware that I was really working against the occupation and people were supporting me and so they told me: "We have seen that you are very appreciated in Italy". And that helped me to be freed.

[B]You then became aware presumably that negotiations were going on about your possible release.

I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information

I could imagine that negotiations were going on but I can't tell you more because I was not aware of what was the object of the negotiations. And when I was freed it was the last of my problems which kind of negotiations were going on.

You do not know whether money was paid for your freedom?

No, I don't know.

Tell us about the man [Italian security agent Nicola Calipari] who came to try and secure your release.

I saw him for the first time when he came to [collect] me. He was a very special man. I immediately felt in contact with him and he gave me hope. But this was too short because he died after half an hour.

Tell us about the car journey you shared with him.

We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

When did you become aware that your car was being fired at?

We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack.

Why do you think the Americans opened fire?

We were not a hidden car. We were just a car on the road with lights and we were not running without any signal. So you have to ask the Americans because we don't know what happened.

Nicola Calipari died protecting Ms Sgrena

Did the Americans continue to fire when your car had come to a halt?

Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.

I don't know if they knew what they were doing or not but it's a big responsibility so they have to respond to what happened because it's impossible to shoot a car on a road to the airport without giving any signal, any stop or any check.

Do you think it was deliberate?

I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information. But also a lack of information in this case is [their] responsibility because you are in a war field and you have the responsibility to pass immediately any information.

The information was given to the Italians to tell the Americans that we were on the road. Now, I can't say why they shot at us in this way but it's a very big responsibility and we ask for a response on what happened.

So what did this security agent do when he heard the firing?

When the driver said "they're attacking us", one of the [agents] tried to say we're Italians but it was impossible to get out of the car because the car was under this rain of fire.

And the other one tried to protect me and he died. I was pushing down to avoid the bullets and after I don't know how long, I found that he was dead.

He died in your arms?

Yes.

How do you feel about the man who saved your life?

I am very, very sad and feel pain for him. I'm sorry not to be able to go to the funeral because I am in hospital.

He was a brave man.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm)

Yet the Main Stream Media continues to bolster the "official story" of speeding cars, no communication, and checkpoints

CommanderMcBragg

03-08-2005, 12:03 PM

So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.

And I'm damn proud of that scared, young soldier. I'd like to see how you'd react.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:04 PM

stfu!!! if a tank opened fire on them..there would be no sgrena...

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:07 PM

what is worse is the payoff:

"An Iraqi lawmaker, Youdaam Youssef Kanna, told Belgian state TV Saturday evening that he had "nonofficial" information a $1 million ransom was paid for Sgrena's release, Apcom reported from Brussels."
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/4257763/detail.html

so, now the terrorists have an extra 1 million dollars to wreak havoc...

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:09 PM

Italians Kept U.S. Military in the Dark

Following Italian journalist Guiliana Sgrena’s account at her “attempted murder” by United States soldiers, we are learning more about the incident from more reputable sources. It now appears likely that Italian agents kept the information from the U.S. military that a cash for Sgrena trade was made.

ROME – Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.

The decision by operatives of Italy’s SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have “short-circuited” communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city’s airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.

Indeed. Even as Sgrena herself notes, the United States does not believe in negotiating with terrorists much less paying a ransom which will likely embolden more terrorist groups to take hostages as well as provide them money to purchase weaponry that in turn kills Iraqis and Coalition soldiers.

The more information that presents itself in this case the more it shows this was a tragic accident, not the deliberate killing as suggested by Sgrena. All journalists would do theirselves a favor to step back from her story and look at the facts, do a little thinking regarding any reasons why her story might be jeopardized and then write articles. It appears that is starting to be the case (via Captain’s Quarters).

Sgrena’s latest article, entitled ‘My Truth,’ has been translated and reproduced on CNN. It’s worth a read to note some huge discrepencies:

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles
and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed.
It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water
in aghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had
been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell.

To Sgrena’s own admission the car carrying her to Baghdad Airport almost lost control to swerve around puddles on the road, but she has repeatedly said the car was not traveling at a high rate of speed. For a car to almost lose control moving out of the way of a puddle indicates the car was traveling much faster than what she has claimed.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:12 PM

And I'm damn proud of that scared, young soldier. I'd like to see how you'd react.

Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:13 PM

Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.

now you are back tracking...

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:17 PM

The decision by operatives of Italy’s SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have “short-circuited” communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city’s airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.

Once again, this directly contradicts the Italians story that the U.S. knew that these hostage negotiations were taking place, and the Italians were taking action that evening to pay for the release of Sgrena. Sgrena's vehicle had already passed at least two 'official U.S. checkpoints' so the occupants must not have had any idea that they were placing themselves in any real danger.

CommanderMcBragg

03-08-2005, 12:18 PM

Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.

But they ARE there and are doing the best job they can.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:19 PM

now you are back tracking...

No, that was only a hypothetical. I am only interested in uncovering the official story, not the M.S.M. side of the story since we already know the Pentagon uses our media as it's own personal propaganda tool.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:20 PM

Once again, this directly contradicts the Italians story that the U.S. knew that these hostage negotiations were taking place, and the Italians were taking action that evening to pay for the release of Sgrena. Sgrena's vehicle had already passed at least two 'official U.S. checkpoints' so the occupants must not have had any idea that they were placing themselves in any real danger.

right now, the US's official story seems more plausible...

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:23 PM

But they ARE there and are doing the best job they can.

Yes, they are, but given the shortage of experienced combat troops the armed forces are experiencing, a viable argument can be made that perhaps these part-time soldiers have been put into positions that they have no been adaquetly trained for, same argument as was made about the Abu Gharib prison scandal.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:24 PM

right now, the US's official story seems more plausible...

Then the Pentagon should let the MSM and foreign News services interview the soldiers involved in the incident. Let's not hide anything.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:25 PM

Yes, they are, but given the shortage of experienced combat troops the armed forces are experiencing, a viable argument can be made that perhaps these part-time soldiers have been put into positions that they have no been adaquetly trained for, same argument as was made about the Abu Gharib prison scandal.

95% of that AG stuff wasn't even torture... torture is what they do to our people... an american could only hope his captors only TOLD him they were going to electrocute him...

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:26 PM

Then the Pentagon should let the MSM and foreign News services interview the soldiers involved in the incident. Let's not hide anything.

that is what they have spokespersons for... those guys are trying to help the country of iraq..no time for fucking interviews..

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:41 PM

95% of that AG stuff wasn't even torture... torture is what they do to our people... an american could only hope his captors only TOLD him they were going to electrocute him...

Torture isn't for you, me or Alberto Gonzales to define, but for the International Court at the Hague.

Nbadan

03-08-2005, 12:42 PM

that is what they have spokespersons for... those guys are trying to help the country of iraq..no time for fucking interviews..

I'm sure the U.S. military can spare these troops until this incident has been properly investigated. Remember, the Italians are looking at this as a murder investigation not a war crime.

Clandestino

03-08-2005, 12:46 PM

Torture isn't for you, me or Alberto Gonzales to define, but for the International Court at the Hague.

the u.s. didn't sign on to international court..

Nbadan

03-09-2005, 04:40 AM

the u.s. didn't sign on to international court..

We are still bound by the Geneva Convention definition of prisoner abuse and torture.

Here are some recovered pictures of Sgrena's car...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/tobius/capt.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-car-ap-2-lg.jpg

In this photo released Tuesday March 8, 2005 by the Italian RAI TG1 national television, network military personnel are seen near a car said to be that In which Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was travelling with deceased secret service operative Nicola Calipari, during her release in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), last Friday March 4, 2005. Sgrena returned to Italy but Calipari was killed in what appears to be a friendly fire incident by U.S. troops. (AP Photo/TG1, Rai)

Clandestino

03-09-2005, 09:11 AM

We are still bound by the Geneva Convention definition of prisoner abuse and torture.

Here are some recovered pictures of Sgrena's car...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/tobius/capt.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-car-ap-2-lg.jpg

In this photo released Tuesday March 8, 2005 by the Italian RAI TG1 national television, network military personnel are seen near a car said to be that In which Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was travelling with deceased secret service operative Nicola Calipari, during her release in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), last Friday March 4, 2005. Sgrena returned to Italy but Calipari was killed in what appears to be a friendly fire incident by U.S. troops. (AP Photo/TG1, Rai)

where did you get those pictures??? also, i don't even see one bullet hole, much less 300-400....

Useruser666

03-09-2005, 10:01 AM

Clandestino

03-09-2005, 10:09 AM

Um.......either those are some very very small caliber bullets, or the US troops are great shots to be able to get 300 rounds through the open window of a moving car. :lol

I really expected a smoldering wreck of Swiss cheese. I could take that car to CarMax right off the back of that transport. Maybe bullets was creative synonym for water droplets that hit the car after they drove through those puddles.

Another point, even M16 rounds would most likely not get stuck in a car's seats. (5.56mm .233)

yeah, not in the car seat..especially if the car was going 100mph which i've seen reported on some sites...

but yeah, i was expecting a car that was barely standing up...

in her bbc interview she said:
Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm

Nbadan

03-09-2005, 05:07 PM

In his first major address since Friday's shooting strained relations between Washington and one of its biggest allies, told Italy's Senate that the car carrying agent Nicola Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena stopped immediately when a light was flashed. The U.S. military has said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots to try to get the car to stop.

Friendly fire is "painful" to accept, Berlusconi said. But he reassured lawmakers that the United States is committed to determining the truth about the shooting.

"I'm sure that in a very short time every aspect of this will be clarified," he said.

<snip>

"The case of friendly fire is certainly the most painful to bear. It feels like an injustice beyond any sentiment. It's something unreasonable," Berlusconi said.

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050309/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage&cid=518&ncid=1480)

Agent Nicola Calipari is said to have been on his cell phone talking with Prime Minister Berlusconi in Rome at the time of the attack. That establishes that he had a working cell phone at the time. I think it is fair to say that Calipari made other calls on his cell phone on the ride to the airport and in the days prior to the event. He probably checked with the pilots of the Italian jet to make sure the airplane was ready for a hasty departure from Baghdad.

US military aircraft, such as the Army RC-12, have the capability to intercept and DF (locate) cell phone calls. The USAF and Navy have aircraft capable of similar COMINT, SIGINT, and ELINT (communication, signal, and electronic intelligence). These aircraft are "up" 24/7.

Calipari and hostage Giuliana Sgrena were certainly persons-of-interest to the US government and the US military. I think that it is highly likely that Calipari was being watched "electronically," if not physically too. Perhaps the check-point did not get the word. Fog of war. Perhaps they did. Perhaps it was not really a check-point. It is pretty much an academic argument because, given the well-honed secrecy of the Bu$h regime, we will probably never know.

Clandestino

03-09-2005, 09:09 PM

dan, your own fucking pictures proved there was no hail of 300-400 bullets hitting her car... she is a lying communist... nothing she says is credible..

AFE7FATMAN

03-10-2005, 05:12 AM

This is old school but I feel a point needs to be made. So Dan You figure it out.

At McConnell AFB in Wichita Kansas in the 60's General Lemay drove trough the gate in his staff car, without stopping. The AP fired several shots at the car.
Later the AP was given an article 15/Court Martial.

AP =AirPoliceman

WHY?

He failed to stop the car-i.e. piss poor shot.

AS Joe says
WAR= Shit happens.

BTW If you were every in Rome/Italy you would know that the I Ties
don't stop. They simply blow their HORN

Useruser666

03-10-2005, 10:15 AM

I can not believe the lengths or depths to which you will go Dan. Suggesting the US purposely tried to kill this reporter is going way past borderline insanity. You may masquerade as someone concerned about our country and or government. You may pretend and dress yourself in the robes of liberalism, justice, or peace, but most can see through such hollowness. You are not someone who cares for our country, the people in Iraq, or anyone who has a different view of the world than your own. I suppose it is your right to be blinded by your hate, to try and push whatever dark agendas you secretly harbor here on this forum, but you muddy the water for those that actually believe in some of the same values you trumpet here every day. You drown out the sensible argument, with the roar of the ridiculous and fruadulent.

The point is Dan, few can hear what you're saying when you're saying it so loudly. You are the guy in the $500 '83 Honda Civic, with the $3,500.00 stereo turned up so loud, that even he(you) can not hear the music.

Hook Dem

03-10-2005, 10:27 AM

DAN .................................................. ........................................http://tinypic.com/22l0td

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 11:24 AM

well said, user... and hookdem too! haha

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 11:46 AM

The point is Dan, few can hear what you're saying when you're saying it so loudly. You are the guy in the $500 '83 Honda Civic, with the $3,500.00 stereo turned up so loud, that even he(you) can not hear the music.

Blah, blah, blah, if don't like my style then go form your own political forum. It's a style that has worked for me for years, it's also well researched and factual.

travis2

03-10-2005, 11:49 AM

:lmao

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 11:50 AM

Turns out the soldiers involved in the Sgrena shooting weren't a check-point after all, but part of added security for John Negroponte who was expected in the area...

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. troops who mistakenly killed an Italian intelligence agent last week on the road to Baghdad's international airport were part of extra security provided by the U.S. Army to protect U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, a U.S. official said Thursday.

Italian intelligence agent Nicola Calipari was killed Friday when U.S. troops opened fire on a car carrying him and Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who had just been freed from insurgents.

"The mobile patrol was there to enhance security because Ambassador Negroponte was expected through," U.S. Embassy spokesman Robert Callahan said, confirming reports in Italian media. The newspaper La Repubblica reported Wednesday that the checkpoint had been "set up to protect the passage of Ambassador Negroponte."

It was not known if Negroponte, who was nominated last month by President Bush (news - web sites) to be the new director of national intelligence, had already passed through the checkpoint.

moreYahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_italy_hostage&cid=540&ncid=1480)

The article reports the shooting occurred 2 hours before the 11PM Baghdad curfew on civilian vehicles. That seems to contradict some posts last weekend blaming the Italians for violating the curfew. Its going to be interesting to see how the sharply divergent accounts are going to be resolved. Berlusconi's government is having to play pretty hard because of public outrage. The Italians seem adamant that their agents behaved properly and professionally. I wonder if they have tapes of the cell phone conversations that may have been taking place at the time of the incident? Will Bush let Berlusconi save face? Or will he care?

Useruser666

03-10-2005, 12:00 PM

Blah, blah, blah, if don't like my style then go form your own political forum. It's a style that has worked for me for years, it's also well researched and factual.

Your style is not well researched or factual. Your arguments can easily be proven wrong or misleading most of the time by simply posting the rest of the body of the article from which you hack out your "facts". If that doesn't work then you can always be relied upon to contradict yourself either a few posts later, or in another thread. I could replace your TV screen with a mirror and you STILL wouldn't like what the guy on TV had to say.

By the way, I didn't know this is your political forum.

Useruser666

03-10-2005, 12:02 PM

Gee, driving through war torn Iraq, dodging US forces, insurgents, puddles, and talking on a cell phone? This proves cell phones are not safe to use while driving.

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:12 PM

Turns out the soldiers involved in the Sgrena shooting weren't a check-point after all, but part of added security for John Negroponte who was expected in the area...

moreYahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_italy_hostage&cid=540&ncid=1480)

The article reports the shooting occurred 2 hours before the 11PM Baghdad curfew on civilian vehicles. That seems to contradict some posts last weekend blaming the Italians for violating the curfew. Its going to be interesting to see how the sharply divergent accounts are going to be resolved. Berlusconi's government is having to play pretty hard because of public outrage. The Italians seem adamant that their agents behaved properly and professionally. I wonder if they have tapes of the cell phone conversations that may have been taking place at the time of the incident? Will Bush let Berlusconi save face? Or will he care?

everything i have read has the incident occuring at 9pm.. regardless, the were warned to stop and didn't... they were taken out...

also, how can you just ignore the bs accounts of sgrenas story? 300-400 bullets and the picture you posted didn't even show one bullet hole???

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:13 PM

Blah, blah, blah, if don't like my style then go form your own political forum. It's a style that has worked for me for years, it's also well researched and factual.

jihad propaganda sites aren't well researched...neither are communist ones...

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:17 PM

Your style is not well researched or factual. Your arguments can easily be proven wrong or misleading most of the time by simply posting the rest of the body of the article from which you hack out your "facts". If that doesn't work then you can always be relied upon to contradict yourself either a few posts later, or in another thread. I could replace your TV screen with a mirror and you STILL wouldn't like what the guy on TV had to say.

By the way, I didn't know this is your political forum.

Then prove me wrong and don't expect people to take your word for it. My biggest beef about you right-wing hecklers is that you attack my sources, and attack me personally, but you don't take the time to prove what I am saying is wrong - ever. That gets tired after a while.

It's like the whole draft threads relived, I kept saying that the Army and Marines were short-handed, you said they were just projections, turns out I was right again, and you were wrong again. Surprised? I'm not. This seems to be a pattern.

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:20 PM

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:20 PM

also, how can you just ignore the bs accounts of sgrenas story? 300-400 bullets and the picture you posted didn't even show one bullet hole???

Look, the woman had been kidnapped and held for days deprived of food, water and sleep, I'm sure from her prespective it was a hell of a lot of shots, probably not the 300-400 she initially claimed, for all we know this could have been a translation error.

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:21 PM

there still hasn't been a draft!!! you are still wrong....

We shall see soon enough.

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:21 PM

also, why do you continue to ignore the fact the car didn't have any bullet holes?

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:23 PM

Look, the woman had been kidnapped and held for days deprived of food, water and sleep, I'm sure from her prespective it was a hell of a lot of shots, probably not the 300-400 she initially claimed, for all we know this could have been a translation error.

no, she said they captors were very nice to her... and you don't get an error in translation on numbers usually... context yes, but numbers no...

her own words.
The condition of life was not bad from the material point of view

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:26 PM

also, why do you continue to ignore the fact the car didn't have any bullet holes?

The windshield seems to contain quiet a few bullet-holes, but none of this changes the circumstances that led to the shooting.

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:27 PM

The windshield seems to contain quiet a few bullet-holes, but none of this changes the circumstances that led to the shooting.

that they were going so fast that they almost lost control of the vehicle? yeah, it doesn't change that fact... and the fact that she said, the car had been destroyed...

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:27 PM

The condition of life was not bad from the material point of view

Are you insinuating that she 'enjoyed' her time in captivity. That's deranged.

Clandestino

03-10-2005, 12:28 PM

Are you insinuating that she 'enjoyed' her time in captivity. That's deranged.

those are her own words...

Nbadan

03-10-2005, 12:33 PM

that they were going so fast that they almost lost control of the vehicle? yeah, it doesn't change that fact... and the fact that she said, the car had been destroyed...

Given that the U.S. army has bradley fight vehicles and multi-ton Abram tanks traveling consistently down that road, along with the threat of UIDs, it's surprising the car was moving at the 30 MPH as the Italians claim. None-the-less, the Italian agent was well versed in the procedures involved when coming up to a U.S. check-point. Plus, the Americans control the airport that Sgrena was being driven too. The Army had to have known that her release was scheduled for that evening.

Useruser666

03-10-2005, 01:54 PM

Then prove me wrong and don't expect people to take your word for it. My biggest beef about you right-wing hecklers is that you attack my sources, and attack me personally, but you don't take the time to prove what I am saying is wrong - ever. That gets tired after a while.

It's like the whole draft threads relived, I kept saying that the Army and Marines were short-handed, you said they were just projections, turns out I was right again, and you were wrong again. Surprised? I'm not. This seems to be a pattern.

Here's the problem Dan, in your head, you're right. In the real world, you don't know what you're talking about. You have NEVER proven me wrong in anything that I have said.

The statements I made about the recruiting were mostly QUOTES from the articles you, yourself posted. I never said that they weren't short or denied any of the figures. I simply said you were exaggerating what was being talked about and how much of a problem it was for the military. I supported my stance by posting the entire article you butchered and how given it's context was not the end of the world. I also posted that the military was trying to consolidate it's divisions, this being the reason for there being less of them. Then I pulled striaight from the story you posted that the military was infact expanding, and in doing so, has raised it's recruitment goals. So taking that into account, not being able to meet higher goals is not the worst thing in the world.

Taking things out of context seems to be your specialty, or style as you seem to call it. I don't have to go far with the draft issue here. How many times have you said there will be a draft coming soon? Pick date already and stick with it. There are people standing on street corners all over the place with signs that read, "The End is Near!". Eventually they'll be right, but right now you have the same amount of credibility as they do.