Russell > Jordan

[scanry]

I know some people here aren't happy about the Finals MVP being named after Russell, but i'll ask you this who has ever taken a college team (that too Univ of San Francisco) to 55 straight victories and 2 national championships? :wow:wow:wow

The guy is just not appreciated enough. Jordan may be the ultimate scorer, but Bill Russell will always be the ultimate winner. :toast

BTW Stern should've named the Larry O' Brien trophy after Bill Russell..

[manufor3]

college team? wow

[j-money24]

i agree with you
russell is number one in my books

[BlackSwordsMan]

college = NBA?

[Red Hawk #21]

???

[TheNextGen]

The guy is just not appreciated enough. Jordan may be the ultimate scorer, but Bill Russell will always be the ultimate winner. :toast

BTW Stern should've named the Larry O' Brien trophy after Bill Russell..

Ultimate Winner = Russel

Ultimate Scorer = Kobe

Ultimate Player Ever = Jordan

[m33p0]

should be named after a dead person.

[scanry]

Ultimate Winner = Russel

Ultimate Scorer = Kobe

Ultimate Player Ever = Jordan

Jordan & Wilt were much better scorers.

[TheNextGen]

Jordan & Wilt were much better scorers.

wilt yes. Jordan, i would have to disagree. I believe Jodan was a better overall player. But if it were just to put the ball in the hole, i think Kobe is one up on that category.

[scanry]

wilt yes. Jordan, i would have to disagree. I believe Jodan was a better overall player. But if it were just to put the ball in the hole, i think Kobe is one up on that category.

I guess you didn't watch the Jordan (i think it was Michael) i did.

BTW Jordan always fared better in the playoffs. Kobe on the other hand, not so much.

[jdev82]

tim duncan championship trophy is next

[TheNextGen]

I guess you didn't watch the Jordan (i think it was Michael) i did.

BTW Jordan always fared better in the playoffs. Kobe on the other hand, not so much.

I guess we didnt. I just think Kobe is a better "scorer".

Playoffs has nothing to do with my point about being a better scorer.

To each his own.

[baseline bum]

wilt yes. Jordan, i would have to disagree. I believe Jodan was a better overall player. But if it were just to put the ball in the hole, i think Kobe is one up on that category.

:lmao

[Kobe™]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3394/3282465340_f19c597586_o.png

[ducks]

I know some people here aren't happy about the Finals MVP being named after Russell, but i'll ask you this who has ever taken a college team (that too Univ of San Francisco) to 55 straight victories and 2 national championships? :wow:wow:wow

The guy is just not appreciated enough. Jordan may be the ultimate scorer, but Bill Russell will always be the ultimate winner. :toast

BTW Stern should've named the Larry O' Brien trophy after Bill Russell..
mj is three times greater then russel

[Cry Havoc]

wilt yes. Jordan, i would have to disagree. I believe Jodan was a better overall player. But if it were just to put the ball in the hole, i think Kobe is one up on that category.

And you clearly have no working knowledge of the NBA earlier than 2000.

You're just wrong. Don't try to justify your response or provide anything to back up your opinion. You're freaking wrong. Incredibly wrong. Drastically wrong.

[DrHouse]

I would also say Kobe is a better scorer than MJ. His offensive skillset is unmatched. The guy has range that Jordan never had, has an incredible post game, great footwork, and when he gets into his zone.....81 pts.

But that doesn't mean Kobe is a better player than MJ was. When you factor in defense, rebounding, passing, clutchness, etc. MJ one ups Kobe by a good margin.

[SpursDynasty]

Basketball was a less competitive game in Russell's day. The league was much smaller in his day too.

Jordan faced a tougher game, tougher league, tougher competition.

[slayermin]

Jordan>>>Russell
Duncan>>Russell
Admiral>>Russell

[scanry]

Jordan>>>Russell
Duncan>>Russell
Admiral>>Russell

You're a dumb freaking ass. Russell was the bench mark for the game of basketball in the 60's. He also stood up for the black players in those days.

Bill Russell is the sole reason why the Boston Celtics have 11 championships. :wow

BTW why did Russell cut all ties to the Celtics in 1969? Any one know what the reason was???

[Obstructed_View]

Bill Russell is great, but the Celtics bought the best players from all the other teams. The reason Russell is a great team player is because he had the greatest teammates.

Anybody that thinks Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan should at least look at their stats before saying something so stupid. Kobe's been with the Lakers the same number of years Jordan was with the Bulls. Kobe's averaged over 30 points per game twice, Jordan did it eight times.

[IronMexican]

Jordan>>>Russell
Duncan>>Russell
Admiral>>Russell

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[urunobili]

Ultimate Winner = Russel

Ultimate Scorer = Kobe

Ultimate Player Ever = Jordan

:tu

[balli]

Anybody that thinks Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan should at least look at their stats before saying something so stupid. Kobe's been with the Lakers the same number of years Jordan was with the Bulls. Kobe's averaged over 30 points per game twice, Jordan did it eight times.
I agree, but to be fair, early in his career Kobe didn't have the freedom to shoot that Michael did. Take Shaq off those Laker teams and I guarantee Kobe has several more seasons with a 30+ average.

[KidCongo]

I agree, but to be fair, early in his career Kobe didn't have the freedom to shoot that Michael did. Take Shaq off those Laker teams and I guarantee Kobe has several more seasons with a 30+ average.

Isn't that like saying play Michael with Kwame Brown and Smush Paker against the Raptors and see if MJ puts up 81.

[balli]

Isn't that like saying play Michael with Kwame Brown and Smush Paker against the Raptors and see if MJ puts up 81.
No, I'm not even slightly interested in whether or not MJ could score 81 exactly like Kobe. I'll leave those hypotheticals to the people more obsessed than I am.


Just saying, you can't make a statistical comparison between the two with any validity. At least concerning the first few years of Kobe's career.

[IronMexican]

I agree, but to be fair, early in his career Kobe didn't have the freedom to shoot that Michael did. Take Shaq off those Laker teams and I guarantee Kobe has several more seasons with a 30+ average.

But MJ was doing it and winning. Kobe did it, and the best they did was go 45-37 and a first round exit.

[baseline bum]

I would also say Kobe is a better scorer than MJ. His offensive skillset is unmatched. The guy has range that Jordan never had, has an incredible post game, great footwork, and when he gets into his zone.....81 pts.
.

Kobe has range on Jordan; that's it. That range is more than negated by Jordan's ability to penetrate, which kills Kobe's even though Jordan had to do it in the hand-check era and not the can't touch the guy era Kobe plays in.

[balli]

Hey, I think mj's the better player... and the better scorer... and the better winner. I'm just saying you can't compare their stats to reach such a conclusion.

[IronMexican]

I was watching the '88 All Star game on ESPN Classic, and Jordan was ridiculous. He was doing moves I've only seen in that 05-06 season from Kobe.

[balli]

I was watching the '88 All Star game on ESPN Classic, and Jordan was ridiculous.

:lol +1

[Cry Havoc]

Hey, I think mj's the better player... and the better scorer... and the better winner. I'm just saying you can't compare their stats to reach such a conclusion.

You can't?

Okay. How about the 6 Finals MVPs? How about 33.4 points per game in the playoffs? How about the seven SCORING titles Jordan won? How about the (easily) 3 or 4 more he could have won if he wanted to?

You say you can't compare stats to reach a conclusion here. What the hell are you going to compare then? Your subjective argument that "omg Kobe scored 81 in a game that didn't freaking matter he's the best zomg!!!!"?

This isn't even a debate. It's not even close. You're comparing a guy that has NEVER LED HIS TEAM TO A TITLE and stating he's a better scorer than the greatest player of all-time?

I don't even need to defend Jordan further. Your argument and incredibly biased conclusion are dead. They aren't even in the realm of consideration. Any non-Laker fan who's older than you (alive and able to remember the 90s) would never ever ever ever say that Kobe is a better offensive player than Jordan.

[balli]

You can't?

Okay. How about the 6 Finals MVPs? How about 33.4 points per game in the playoffs? How about the seven SCORING titles Jordan won? How about the (easily) 3 or 4 more he could have won if he wanted to?

You say you can't compare stats to reach a conclusion here. What the hell are you going to compare then? Your subjective argument that "omg Kobe scored 81 in a game that didn't freaking matter he's the best zomg!!!!"?

This isn't even a debate. It's not even close. You're comparing a guy that has NEVER LED HIS TEAM TO A TITLE and stating he's a better scorer than the greatest player of all-time?

I don't even need to defend Jordan further. Your argument and incredibly biased conclusion are dead. They aren't even in the realm of consideration. Any non-Laker fan who's older than you (alive and able to remember the 90s) would never ever ever ever say that Kobe is a better offensive player than Jordan.
Havoc- reading is fundamental.


Hey, I think mj's the better player... and the better scorer... and the better winner.

[Cry Havoc]

Havoc- reading is fundamental.

The majority of my post wasn't directed at you. But the fact is that Jordan's career average in the playoffs is over 33 points per game. That's a stat that is absolutely central to the discussion. So yes, you can use stats to compare. Stats that you CAN'T use are worthless 81 points against the Raptors, or 61 in the Garden during a regular season. Both scores came against hapless teams that have no ability to play basic defense. Jordan could have likely averaged 50 points per game in his prime, but his team would have paid for it with a lesser record.

[balli]

The majority of my post wasn't directed at you. But the fact is that Jordan's career average in the playoffs is over 33 points per game.

That's fine... but who was it directed at? The only stat I was talking about was how many times they averaged 30+ over the course of a season. My only point was that Shaq influenced Kobe's scoring, so while some statistical comparison can be made, obviously, the number of times they each averaged 30+ should be excluded.

[Cry Havoc]

That's fine... but who was it directed at? The only stat I was talking about was how many times they averaged 30+ over the course of a season. My only point was that Shaq influenced Kobe's scoring, so while some statistical comparison can be made, obviously, the number of times they each averaged 30+ should be excluded.

By the same token though, you could ask yourself how many times Jordan held back from dominating even more than he already did, to save his team wins. I am pretty convinced he could have averaged 40-45 ppg over most of his career had he wanted the recognition that went with it. If you factor in Shaq, you also have to take into account how much winning meant to Jordan, even more than scoring 50+ points whenever he needed to make a statement. It's obvious that Kobe wants the limelight. For Jordan, that was a by-product of winning.

[balli]

By the same token though, you could ask yourself how many times Jordan held back from dominating even more than he already did, to save his team wins. I am pretty convinced he could have averaged 40-45 ppg over most of his career had he wanted the recognition that went with it.
I'd agree, but that's a far more subjective argument than I'm willing to engage in any further. You've opened Pandora's box and maybe it'll go unnoticed on a Sunday night, but if I were you, I'd prepare to defend that argument from the rabid Kobe propagators.

[Cry Havoc]

I'd agree, but that's a far more subjective argument than I'm willing to engage in any further. You've opened Pandora's box and maybe it'll go unnoticed on a Sunday night, but if I were you, I'd prepare to defend that argument from the rabid Kobe propagators.

Okay, I'll put it like this. Either:

A: You take away Shaq? Fine. Kobe has 0 titles.

B: You take away Shaq to inflate Kobe's stats? Fine. Take away Pippen.

[adidas11]

You didn't just compare Scottie Pippen to Shaq, did you??

[PM5K]

You didn't just compare Scottie Pippen to Shaq, did you??

That's a very simplistic way of looking at what he just said....

[Obstructed_View]

I agree, but to be fair, early in his career Kobe didn't have the freedom to shoot that Michael did. Take Shaq off those Laker teams and I guarantee Kobe has several more seasons with a 30+ average.
Oh, arguing with ifs. Okay, my turn: Take Pippen off any of those teams and Jordan averages 40. Kobe puts up some impressive numbers because he's a more willing three point shooter than Jordan was.

[scanry]

Man this Jordan vs. Kobe thing is killing me.

Didn't we all agree that Jordan >>>> Kobe and let's put this Kobe vs. Jordan to rest.

[cobbler]

I know some people here aren't happy about the Finals MVP being named after Russell, but i'll ask you this who has ever taken a college team (that too Univ of San Francisco) to 55 straight victories and 2 national championships? :wow:wow:wow

The guy is just not appreciated enough. Jordan may be the ultimate scorer, but Bill Russell will always be the ultimate winner. :toast

BTW Stern should've named the Larry O' Brien trophy after Bill Russell..

If you want to talk college, Kareem has a far better record. He won 3 with UCLA and thier record was 88-2

[Obstructed_View]

No, I'm not even slightly interested in whether or not MJ could score 81 exactly like Kobe. I'll leave those hypotheticals to the people more obsessed than I am.


Just saying, you can't make a statistical comparison between the two with any validity. At least concerning the first few years of Kobe's career.

You can make all kinds of statistical comparisons. Jordan played on bad teams very early in his career before he developed his post game, his three point shot, and that turnaround jumper that became one of his signature shots, and he still averaged 37 points per game. Kobe played on bad teams during the peak of his ability and didn't score as much despite putting up some completely historic scoring runs.

Besides, people that even suggest Kobe's a better scorer with a straight face obviously didn't see Jordan play. Those folks should at least scan the stats before they decide to make such a statement. That's all I was saying. Kobe's probably the third or fourth best scorer in NBA history, but he's not first or second.

[Obstructed_View]

If you want to talk college, Kareem has a far better record. He won 3 with UCLA and thier record was 88-2

Did you just compare UCLA with San Francisco? ;)

[slayermin]

Bill Russell is the sole reason why the Boston Celtics have 11 championships. :wow

Uh, no. He was a great player, arguably the greatest on one end of the court. On the offensive end, he was average to below average. He had lots of help winning those rings and a lot credit should go to Red Auerbach. Auerbach was a shrewd evaluator of talent and he surrounded Russell with eight other Hall of Famers to create their dynasty.

In my humble opinion, Bill Russell is the most overrated basketball player of all-time.

As much as I hate the Lakers, Magic Johnson was the GOAT.

[Cry Havoc]

You can make all kinds of statistical comparisons. Jordan played on bad teams very early in his career before he developed his post game, his three point shot, and that turnaround jumper that became one of his signature shots, and he still averaged 37 points per game. Kobe played on bad teams during the peak of his ability and didn't score as much despite putting up some completely historic scoring runs.

Besides, people that even suggest Kobe's a better scorer with a straight face obviously didn't see Jordan play. Those folks should at least scan the stats before they decide to make such a statement. That's all I was saying. Kobe's probably the third or fourth best scorer in NBA history, but he's not first or second.

You could make an argument that George Gervin was a better pure scorer than Kobe is.

[Obstructed_View]

You could make an argument that George Gervin was a better pure scorer than Kobe is.

I said Kobe was "probably" the third or fourth best. There have been some amazing scorers over the years and the difference in eras will always spark debate. For that reason, I could make the argument that Gervin is a better scorer than Kobe far better than I could make the argument that Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan.

[Cry Havoc]

I said Kobe was "probably" the third or fourth best. There have been some amazing scorers over the years and the difference in eras will always spark debate. For that reason, I could make the argument that Gervin is a better scorer than Kobe far better than I could make the argument that Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan.

Completely agree.

I'm still not entirely sure Kobe has mastered the cerebral aspect of basketball. That's really what set Jordan apart -- his ability to win games on intelligence and cunning, instead of overpowering others with his physical abilities.

[angelbelow]

actually MJ>russel but the name dedication is appropriate.

[cobbler]

Did you just compare UCLA with San Francisco? ;)

uhhhh NO. I answered the question about Russel and his college accomplishments.

[MANUUU]

jordan > kobe = NO NO
kobe should NOT even be in the same CATEGORY as jordan. it should be
"jordan > ______" and kobe is like not even on the list. in reality, no one comes close.

[Sec24Row7]

Russell is singled out as this amazing player because the NBA has a horrible habit of not recognizing TEAMS... but picking out players and making them the embodiment of that team and giving them all the accolades.

Russell isn't even close to one of the "top ten" players ever... but his Celtics teams hold a record that will never be broken. No one will ever win 11 rings again.

He was the best player on that team in that run for a few years. But that TEAM was amazing making him look much better than he actually was...

[Ice009]

Bill Russell is great, but the Celtics bought the best players from all the other teams. The reason Russell is a great team player is because he had the greatest teammates.

Anybody that thinks Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan should at least look at their stats before saying something so stupid. Kobe's been with the Lakers the same number of years Jordan was with the Bulls. Kobe's averaged over 30 points per game twice, Jordan did it eight times.

This is a strange thread. I wouldn't have thought that anyone would have said Kobe is a better scorer.

[PM5K]

This is a strange thread. I wouldn't have thought that anyone would have said Kobe is a better scorer.

You must not have been here very long.

No matter how undisputed something may be, there is always some idiot that will say the exact opposite either to get a rise out of people, or because he/she truly is an idiot.