Harvey: Gin-sanity: Why Spurs Are Looking

[duncan228]

Gin-sanity: Why Spurs are looking (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Gin-sanity_Why_Spurs_are_looking.html)
Buck Harvey

NEW YORK — The Spurs have been nosing around Vince Carter for most of the season, going over the numbers, re-evaluating the details. When they know there's no way around the numbers and details.

Taking on Carter's contract would be a risk in this economy. It would risk everything the Spurs have been for a decade, too.

But they've kept nosing, and Tuesday offered an explanation. Then the Knicks doubled Tim Duncan, and the other Spurs struggled to score, and the player they needed was back in San Antonio.

This is part of the Vinsanity equation: Do the Spurs need an option if Manu Ginobili can't hold up?

Ginobili's good ankle is sore now, and maybe it's nothing. Maybe he's on his way to Detroit.

But the other ankle snuck up on everyone last year, too, and the timing is odd. After scoring 32 points in the previous game in Toronto, after resting during the All-Star break, Ginobili was too sore to even make the trip?

If this were another player on another team, there would be suspicions of a rented moped.

The Spurs can't blame their second consecutive loss on his absence. Had a Duncan turnaround at the end of regulation bounced in, the Spurs would have seen the night as further proof that they know how to win when things aren't right.

One aspect that wasn't right: Tony Parker left his jumper at the All-Star Game.

Nate Robinson left nothing in Phoenix. He vaulted over Dwight Howard there and the Spurs here. And after Richardson put in 32 points against the Spurs, including a half dozen in overtime, Parker summed it up.

“He was the opposite of me,” Parker admitted.

This is what happens when the Big Three drops to a Big One. The best way to attack Mike D'Antoni's non-defense isn't to fire from outside. Ginobili would have taken care of that, as would have an expensive athlete who doesn't live far from Madison Square Garden.

At first glance, Carter looks like the kind of overly paid and underachieving star the Spurs have beaten for more than a decade. Most think he's related to Tracy McGrady by both blood and heart, and there's a strike against him that execs in the NBA still wonder about.

Jason Kidd had problems playing with Carter, when Kidd rarely has problems with anyone who plays hard.

Still, the talent is there, and the Spurs saw that last week. Then Carter stretched out with the ball in his palm as he drove, doing things no Spurs player can do. He scored 25 points in New Jersey's loss.

He also has size for a wing player, meaning he would help the Spurs rebound. His ego is manageable. He can pass. And he has the kind of Kobe-LeBron body that might come in handy against Kobe-LeBron.

He's been durable, too. He missed a game earlier this month, before the Nets played the Spurs. But that made 11 games missed — in four years in New Jersey.

And then there's this note, as recorded by 82games.com: Carter is second only to LeBron James in game-winning shots over the last half-dozen seasons. James has 17 in 50 attempts, Carter 16 in 51.

The Spurs have their own reasons to like him, too. Duncan has only so many more years left, and the Spurs want to make sure they maximize them. Carter would also ease the burden on Duncan, especially on nights such as Tuesday when Duncan played almost 40 minutes.

As for Gin-sanity: An additional impact player might ease the wear on Ginobili, too.

Other teams see the same, which is why the trade is somewhere in the 10 percent range of happening for the Spurs. The Nets would struggle to match bodies with the Spurs, and both the Rockets and Blazers are involved with easier pieces to move.

The Rockets saw Tuesday night what is possible. Then Carter scored 30 points in Houston.

Still, the Spurs keep nosing around, knowing all the drawbacks, knowing how damaging Carter's massive contract could be. They don't want to inhibit later signings, and they don't want to pay the NBA's luxury tax, and they don't want to give up a carload of players.

But they don't like playing without Ginobili, either.

[honestfool84]

this article makes a great case for getting carter, and i definitely don't want to give up mason to get him.

[Gutter92]

Thank you Duncan228, you are always finding these articles for read :toast

[HarlemHeat37]

as I've said many times already..

we don't have a legit shot at Vince..our offer sucks..

Portland is apparently in the mix now, and their offer is much better..

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Vince Carter is washed up and just as fucking injury prone as Manu. Now, I'm actually on the scoff side of the Manu spectrum, I make no secret of that, but trading him for VC would piss me off far beyond driven.

Fuck Vince Carter, keep your Bowen-Owned whiney ass on the east coast, where the rest of them belong.

[HarlemHeat37]

Vince Carter has missed 11 games in 4 years, but he's injury prone? right..

[Spursfan092120]

Just in case no one's seen it, here's something else I just saw:

Vince swirls in trade winds
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
BY AL IANNAZZONE
NorthJersey.com
STAFF WRITER

HOUSTON – Vince Carter practiced at the Toyota Center on Monday. He may be calling this building home later in the week. The Nets and Rockets have exchanged trade proposals and continue to talk, according to league sources and sources close to the Nets. One scenario has Carter and Josh Boone going to Houston for Ron Artest, Carl Landry and Luther Head.

But another Texas team remains very much alive in the Carter sweepstakes. The San Antonio Spurs’ package for Carter would include Roger Mason Jr., George Hill and Bruce Bowen, the sources said. The Nets would have to make other moves to clear roster room for the additional players they take back.


Nothing is imminent at this point, but the trade deadline is Thursday. Things are expected to heat up before then.
"It’s one of those things you can’t control," Carter said. "They know how I feel about being here, how I’m happy here, the whole nine [yards].
"If it happens it happens. I do my job regardless."
Carter, who could play one of his last games as a Net here tonight, was the subject of numerous trade rumors over All-Star Weekend. The three Texas teams and Cleveland have shown the most interest in the Nets’ best player.
General manager Kiki Vandeweghe has spoken to Carter about what’s happening, an indication that something could transpire. The Nets share the same affinity for Carter as he does for them. They don’t want to trade him, but if they do, it likely would be for economic reasons first.
The Nets are losing millions and Carter is guaranteed $33.6 million for the next two seasons with a $4.5 million partial guarantee for 2010-11.
Artest is in the final year of his contract. Landry, a tough second-year power forward, makes $3 million next year and has a team option for the 2010-11 season. Head, a fourth-year point guard, can be a free agent after this season.
It makes sense for the Rockets. They need another scorer with Tracy McGrady battling a knee injury. Taking Artest could be risky for the Nets because of his checkered past. But the mercurial forward wants to show he’s worthy of a big payday, so he could play hard and be on his best behavior.
The Nets, who are in Dallas on Wednesday, also have spoken to the Mavericks. The Nets probably don’t want to help the Mavericks, though. New Jersey owns Dallas’ first-round pick in 2010 from the Jason Kidd trade and wouldn’t want to lessen its value.

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/39699777.html

[tp2021]

Nate Robinson left nothing in Phoenix. He vaulted over Dwight Howard there and the Spurs here. And after Richardson put in 32 points against the Spurs, including a half dozen in overtime, Parker summed it up.

“He was the opposite of me,” Parker admitted.

[Austin_Toros]

Vinsanity on the spurs may not be that disastrous as people may think. this article makes some sense of it.



Nate Robinson left nothing in Phoenix. He vaulted over Dwight Howard there and the Spurs here. And after Richardson put in 32 points against the Spurs, including a half dozen in overtime, Parker summed it up.

I noticed this too.

[braeden0613]

I still say it would be a terrible decision to give Mason. Carter is known to give up on games and seems like the kind of player that is just in the NBA to get paid. I will be incredibly surprised if we actually trade for him.

[SenorSpur]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If the Spurs chase the overpriced luxury item (Carter) and sacrifice Hil and Mason in the process, they're bigger fools that I ever thought they were.

I hope this is all a smokescreen and they're really targeting Salmons in true CIA fashion.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i say you do the fukn trade, reason being the talent in the nba is still developing mainly the young players, while the dinosaurs on our team the comparison between them and what the opposing team has on its roster is still a big stretch favoring us.

[m33p0]

this is driving me nuts. i hope the deadline is over and done with already.

[crc21209]

FUCK VC. No way I give both Mason and Hill for him. If we could trade cheap spare ass parts for him ala Finley, Udoka, Vaughn...shit like that...then I do it. But of course, not gonna happen.

[HarlemHeat37]

you guys can keep saying you don't wanna give up Mason or Hill, but NJ doesn't want them, so it's not happening either way..our players aren't as attractive to other teams, as they are to us..

[senorglory]

o.k., so maybe you don't like the trade... but to maintain that Carter wouldn't be an upgrade over Mason, is insanity.

[ss1986v2]

o.k., so maybe you don't like the trade... but to maintain that Carter wouldn't be an upgrade over Mason, is insanity.

vinsanity even...

[Dex]

:(

[Spur|n|Austin]

I also hope this is all just a cover by the CIA in SA..

*1st post*

[TDMVPDPOY]

I also hope this is all just a cover by the CIA in SA..

*1st post*

pop is tapping those phone lines as we speak.....:wakeup

[WalterBenitez]

I won't like to see Mason going to Nets, I like this guy

[Evil Angel]

No way Pop gives up the "youth" he's been trying to get and put Holt in the luxury tax. Just not the way they do things.
Smokescreen for a big.

[ATXSPUR]

I doubt this happens. But I can't believe how naive some Spurs fans are. They actually don't want to get better becasue somehow going after a superstar and actually getting him would ruin some "cia" bullshit. Duncan still has a few years left as an elite player and I think it would be shitty repayment to him after all he has done for this franchise to give him little help in his last years. The Spurs got lucky with Parker and Manu but who else? Not to say that i'm not happy with Roger Mason. I just would rather wait and see what he does in the playoffs before I pat our front office on the back too much. But it would still be silly to insist that Carter is not a HUGE upgrade.

[SenorSpur]

o.k., so maybe you don't like the trade... but to maintain that Carter wouldn't be an upgrade over Mason, is insanity.

Carter is an enormously, talented offensive player. Only an idiot would believe he wouldn't be an upgrade. However, the goal isn't to assemble the best talent. If that were the case, the Dallas Cowboys would dominate the NFL football landscape. No. The goal is to assemble the best core of players that fit the style, culture and salary structure of your team. That is how smart teams do it. This is how the Spurs have been successful. They've resisted the temptation of chasing the biggest name free agent dijour. Like the Suns, Mavericks and others.

It's great to have star players - and the Spurs have their Big Three. However, role players, and their consistent contributions, are just as essential to team success and championship contention. The Spurs are not guaranteed success simply by adding a borderline superstar, who has a double-digit salary and can't play defense.

[xtremesteven33]

Carter is an enormously, talented offensive player. Only an idiot would believe he wouldn't be an upgrade.



Yea thats not what you said last time...


anyways,

Chris Broussard on ESPN said that the Spurs are pursuing Richard Jefferson now....take it for what its worth i guess....

[SenorSpur]

Yea thats not what you said last time...


anyways,

Chris Broussard on ESPN said that the Spurs are pursuing Richard Jefferson now....take it for what its worth i guess....

Perhaps you should stop falling in love with the names on the backs of these jerseys.

[DPG21920]

Richard Jefferson would be ideal imo. We need a SF that can fill it up. I have long wanted him on the Spurs.

[DBMethos]

Richard Jefferson? I can see the Lakers shaking in their boots already!

[Bartleby]

Seems unlikely the Spurs have the pieces to get a player of RJ's talent. However, the Bucks are way over the cap and may be willing to make some sacrifices to save $$$.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I'd be shocked if the Spurs trade for a big money contract which doesn't expire at the end of this season.

[NFGIII]

Just in case no one's seen it, here's something else I just saw:

Vince swirls in trade winds
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
BY AL IANNAZZONE
NorthJersey.com
STAFF WRITER

HOUSTON –

But another Texas team remains very much alive in the Carter sweepstakes. The San Antonio Spurs’ package for Carter would include Roger Mason Jr., George Hill and Bruce Bowen, the sources said. The Nets would have to make other moves to clear roster room for the additional players they take back.

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/39699777.html

I would hate to see both Mason and Hill go. This would be a major blow to our youth movement and not neccessarily give us that much better a shot at a title. Of course if Manu goes down without Carter that would mean no shot at all.

[angel_luv]

No Deal. The Nets can keep Carter.

Why on earth would you trade Mason and Hill? They are both keepers.
And I know Bruce is older, but even so, he's a great defender and I'd be sorry to see him go.
I would love it if Bruce eventually joined our coaching staff.

[loveforthegame]

If the Spurs are looking for a player like Carter or Jefferson why would they announce Ginobli's injury? Teams would know they'd be desperate to get help in here, especially if Ginobli is out for a while.

[Mr. Body]

If the Spurs are looking for a player like Carter or Jefferson why would they announce Ginobli's injury? Teams would know they'd be desperate to get help in here, especially if Ginobli is out for a while.

Yes, there is no way other teams wouldn't have noticed he wasn't playing otherwise.

[ploto]

Denial- it's right before your eyes that the Spurs have been considering Carter for some time. It probably won't happen, but they can claim they tried to get better.


The Spurs have their own reasons to like him, too. Duncan has only so many more years left, and the Spurs want to make sure they maximize them. Carter would also ease the burden on Duncan, especially on nights such as Tuesday when Duncan played almost 40 minutes.

As for Gin-sanity: An additional impact player might ease the wear on Ginobili, too.

[burntorange]

If the Spurs are looking for a player like Carter or Jefferson why would they announce Ginobli's injury? Teams would know they'd be desperate to get help in here, especially if Ginobli is out for a while.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r44/kayli-denise/Icons/unsolvedmysteries.jpg

[loveforthegame]

Yes, there is no way other teams wouldn't have noticed he wasn't playing otherwise.

They couldn't say he was given an extra day of rest. Or that he had personal matters to attend that took longer than expected? They wouldn't have had to give any explanation other than he was meeting the team in Detroit.

[coyotes_geek]

They couldn't say he was given an extra day of rest. Or that he had personal matters to attend that took longer than expected? They wouldn't have had to give any explanation other than he was meeting the team in Detroit.

Sure, they could say that. But if you're the Nets don't you get a little curious why the Spurs would be saying Manu is okay and then be calling you about Vince Carter? It's not that hard to put 2 and 2 together.

[Mr. Body]

The Spurs are almost superstitiously afraid of being deceptive.

[mountainballer]

well, if Tim's best overall comparison is Hakeem, the one of Carter might be Clyde Drexler.
remember 1995? when a 32 years old Drexler joined a 32 years old Hakeem. (coincidence?)
a lot of people doubted the Thorpe for Drexler move when it happened, but in fact this was what brought the Rockets the 2nd championship.
ok, of course this doesn't mean or prove anything. I just thought it might be a nice picture.

[Mr. Body]

well, if Tim's best overall comparison is Hakeem, the one of Carter might be Clyde Drexler.
remember 1995? when a 32 years old Drexler joined a 32 years old Hakeem. (coincidence?)
a lot of people doubted the Thorpe for Drexler move when it happened, but in fact this was what brought the Rockets the 2nd championship.
ok, of course this doesn't mean or prove anything. I just thought it might be a nice picture.

That's pretty astute. Otis Thorpe was a crowd favorite but was promptly forgotten by the end of the season. I think, if you can get a guy of Carter's playing caliber, you do so immediately - even dropping Mason and Hill, as much as people like them. The only question would be whether there are enough shots to go around -- and both VC and certainly the rest of the Spurs don't seem to suggest this will be a problem -- any 'disappearing Vince' characteristics will be mitigated, as he'll be second or third, even fourth, option in many cases. And, can he jibe with the team in less than a season?

Now, after that, I doubt NJ does it.

[coyotes_geek]

It was a lot easier to forget Otis Thorpe since they had Robert Horry to fall back on. The Rockets also weren't trying to add Drexler to a backcourt that already had two all-star caliber players in it. One thing to tell Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell and a young Sam Cassell to make room for Clyde Drexler. Another to tell Tony & Manu to make room for Vince.

[Mr. Body]

It was a lot easier to forget Otis Thorpe since they had Robert Horry to fall back on. The Rockets also weren't trying to add Drexler to a backcourt that already had two all-star caliber players in it. One thing to tell Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell and a young Sam Cassell to make room for Clyde Drexler. Another to tell Tony & Manu to make room for Vince.

Sort of. Ginobili already comes off the bench; Carter would be taking Mason's position. Any trouble beyond that, VC really is playing a SG/SF position. I don't think, at least from this perspective, there's any great problems.

[coyotes_geek]

Sort of. Ginobili already comes off the bench; Carter would be taking Mason's position. Any trouble beyond that, VC really is playing a SG/SF position. I don't think, at least from this perspective, there's any great problems.

I don't think there would be great problems in the sense that guys would get selfish over wanting their shots. I just question how big of a diminishing returns factor occurs here because the Spurs already have two talented perimeter scorers capable of creating opportunities for themselves and their teammates.

I'm not sure how good of an illustration this will be, but say we trade for Vince and he gets 15 shots per game, and if we don't trade for Vince those 15 shots are spread across Mason with 10, and 5 for Tony/Manu. How many more points do we get from having Carter take 15 shots as opposed to Mason 10 + Tony/Manu 5? Obviously Vince is a vastly superior player to Mason and can get his shots on his own whereas Mason needs help getting his. Still, those shots Mason gets via help from others are still every bit as much a scoring opportunity as shots Vince would get from his own skills.

Guys like Bonner, Thomas, Bowen, etc won't be the ones having to give up shots for Vince because those guys are only shooting when they're left open. And they will continue to be left open, Vince or no Vince.

[crc21209]

After last nights game, one thing is for sure, we need ONE more big man, and we need a SF to take Fin's spot, someone who is an offensive threat who can get to the rim. Salmons, Jefferson, etc.

[ChumpDumper]

If that's all the Spurs would have to give up, I can see the attraction.

[EricB]

If that's all the Spurs would have to give up, I can see the attraction.

With Ginobili's status now? I agree.

[silverblackfan]

I keep remembering how we took a late 1st round draft pick and a late 2nd round draft and developed them into all stars. (Ok. Manu already was one). It seems like the Spurs can pull the best talent out of players like Bonner, Mason, and in the near future Hill. I would hate to get VC only to see Mason or Hill turn into All Stars on another team next year.
VC would be nice, but not for Hill AND Mason. Of course, if Bruce goes and is not waived, we are hosed as well. He is our defensive upgrade.
I am sure everyone agrees that if Finely would allow a trade, and the Nets wanted him, it would be the best option.

[jag]

With Ginobili's status now? I agree.

Ginolibi is only averaging 27 mpg and he still can't stay healthy. At this point it's difficult to imagine him being the type of contributor over the next 2-3 years that he's been in the past.

[Holt's Cat]

Roger Mason Jr., George Hill and Bruce Bowen

Sold.

[Joe Schmoogins]

Wow, Harvey with the foreshadowing... Looks like he was trying to drop some hints about Ginobili's status