Texas High Schools: 1/3 not graduating?

[MannyIsGod]

High schools losing 1/3 of their students

Web Posted: 03/07/2005 09:32 PM CST

Mc Nelly Torres
Express-News Staff Writer

More than a third of Texas high school freshman students are disappearing from the system or otherwise failing to obtain a high school diploma in four years, according to a study by the Intercultural Development Research Association. :)

The annual study by the San Antonio-based nonprofit group found a high school attrition rate of 36 percent for the 2003-04 academic year, a moderate drop when compared with the 38 percent attrition rate in 2002-03 and 39 percent in 2001-02.

This makes for about 8,570 San Antonio-area high school students who did not receive a diploma last year.

Bexar County mirrored the state with a 36 percent overall attrition rate. Minorities fared worse, with a 43 percent attrition rate for Hispanics, followed by 38 percent for blacks and 20 percent for Anglos.

"The study results testify to the fact that we need to do so much more to make sure that more kids graduate with a high school diploma," said Roy Johnson, director of evaluation research at IDRA.

Texas ranks 36th nationwide in its high school graduation rate, according to a recent study by the Manhattan Institute.

The attrition analysis comes at a time when the state is administering a more rigorous standardized test, which includes an exit test given to students in order to earn a high school diploma. And after being criticized for undercounting the dropouts for many years, the Texas Education Agency is changing how it counts them.

Linda Mora, deputy superintendent for curriculum and instruction at Northside School District, said officials are concerned about attrition and dropout rates.

To address the issue and keep students in school, area districts have restructured high schools by creating learning communities within the schools and implemented mentoring programs at both high and middle schools, she said.

In Texas, minority and male students made up the majority of those who did not graduate on time last year. Almost half of Latinos — or 49 percent — were not among the 2004 graduating class, followed by 44 percent of black students, and 22 percent of Anglo students.

IDRA, which is dedicated to giving students an equal education, conducted the first comprehensive statewide study of high school dropouts in 1986 using an attrition formula, which is based on ninth-grade enrollment figures and 12th-grade enrollment figures three years later, to estimate the number and percent of students who leave high school prior to graduation.

Military schools, state schools and charter schools were excluded from the analysis because these schools tend to have unstable attendance.

Attrition rates, which can be calculated in several ways, are an indicator of schools' holding power or ability to keep students enrolled in school until they graduate.

Though researchers noted the scope and variables used in the analysis are imprecise, educators said the study underscores an educational crisis.

"The message is very powerful because this has an economic impact for the whole community," said Ron Stephens, who handles Northside's student data.

Since 1985, more than 2 million students have been lost from public schools in the state. And every year, nearly 121,000 students don't graduate, costing the state about $500 billion in forgone income, lost tax revenues and increased job training, welfare, unemployment and criminal justice costs, according to IDRA.

Jay Smink, executive director of the National Dropout Prevention Center, said most people don't understand the seriousness of the problem.

"When a kid drops out of school, he drops out of society," Smink said. "People must understand the issue and take part in the solution, because the problem affects all of us."

[Clandestino]

just because a kid drops out doesn't mean he is gone.. many go on to be cooks, janitors, low wage jobs that we need in america. an education is not for everyone...

[desflood]

Clandestino, we agree on this. Perhaps it's time somebody admitted that compulsory education isn't necessarily a good thing.

[travis2]

I don't have a problem with "compulsory education" per se...I think it was a bad thing to eliminate the "voc-ed" track. Not everyone is going to college...hell, not everyone wants to go to college. The European system maintains its own voc-ed track...why can't we? Only difference I would want would be to make the track voluntary, not the result of some test in 6th grade or something...

[GoldToe]

It is nature taking it's course. We are animals and nature simply will not allow everyone to graduate HS or college. Survival of the fittest.
Only difference is humans don't kill off the weak. Or do we?

[bigzak25]

In Texas, minority and male students made up the majority of those who did not graduate on time last year. Almost half of Latinos — or 49 percent — were not among the 2004 graduating class, followed by 44 percent of black students, and 22 percent of Anglo students.


51% of latinos made no excuses.
56% of black male students made no excuses.
78% of white male studens made no excuses.


do you think any of these that graduated had any issues at home? maybe some obstacles to overcome? they sure did. we all did. always someone better off than you. always someone worse off. the education system cannot be held responsible for the failures in and around the home. i think no child left behind is a bullshit. i think no child should be left without a chance to succeed. maybe even a 2nd chance. but 3 strikes, your out. don't drag down the education quality of the students that give a damn.

i don't know how to make the parents that don't care, suddenly care. if i could fix that, i believe the graduation rate would skyrocket. i know it's not always that easy, but that is where it has to start.

[Shelly]

51% of latinos made no excuses.
56% of black male students made no excuses.
78% of white male studens made no excuses.


do you think any of these that graduated had any issues at home? maybe some obstacles to overcome? they sure did. we all did. always someone better off than you. always someone worse off. the education system cannot be held responsible for the failures in and around the home. i think no child left behind is a bullshit. i think no child should be left without a chance to succeed. maybe even a 2nd chance. but 3 strikes, your out. don't drag down the education quality of the students that give a damn.

i don't know how to make the parents that don't care, suddenly care. if i could fix that, i believe the graduation rate would skyrocket. i know it's not always that easy, but that is where it has to start.

Agree, zak! As with everything, it all starts in the home.

[ididnotnothat]

Too many broken homes with only one parent is the problem.

Too many people "hooking" up instead of marriage.

Bad role models at home.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Too many broken homes with only one parent is the problem.

That's where I disagree. Single-parent homes aren't the main problem. It's back to parents taking a stand and being the hard-asses we sometimes need to get us going.

I was in a single-parent household from 1989 (I was nine) to 2000 and we moved to San Antonio from Uvalde in '89 as well.

My mom was on me daily about my education, always telling me to do better, always checking in on me at school, always helping me with my homework, always being there to listen to me and so on.

I'm now on my way to being one of the only children of my mom and her siblings to graduate from college.

Parents need to care, educators need to care and they both need a hell of a lot of help to do both. Education shouldn't be a burden, but a welcome for those that seek it.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Although I would like to add that it is a little better that we finally seem to be receiving more true numbers when it comes to HS dropouts.

[Clandestino]

I don't have a problem with "compulsory education" per se...I think it was a bad thing to eliminate the "voc-ed" track. Not everyone is going to college...hell, not everyone wants to go to college. The European system maintains its own voc-ed track...why can't we? Only difference I would want would be to make the track voluntary, not the result of some test in 6th grade or something...


and that is the problem with the figures... they don't tell the whole story... a european study would be way lower because not everyone is supposed to finish high school...

[CommanderMcBragg]

I think we should give students teh ability to learn a trade. When I was in high school we had vocational education which included welding, auto mechanics, construction and other trades.

Hell, some of the guys I graduated make very good money as welders or mechanics.

No degree needed.

[Clandestino]

I think we should give students teh ability to learn a trade. When I was in high school we had vocational education which included welding, auto mechanics, construction and other trades.

Hell, some of the guys I graduated make very good money as welders or mechanics.

No degree needed.

exactly, you can make enough to feed a family on a welder's, mechanics or contruction worker's salary...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I agree. Those that want vocational education should be able to get it without problems. By allowing them to work and begin apprenticeships early, they are more prepared to enter the workforce following graduation.

[Extra Stout]

Bigger government and/or more funding for schools won't solve the underlying social problems. If education is not a priority in the family, or worse, if the parents don't care what their kids are doing, those kids are likely to fail. Teachers are not and can never be parents.

[mrblonde17]

Our schools definitely need more vocational education. The way schools are currently financed has forced many schools to completely drop VO-ED programs. Where I teach, the majority of students will go to college, but they all don't. I've never understood why it's OK for these guys to linger or atrophy because they don't fit in with the college bound attitude here.

[MannyIsGod]

51% of latinos made no excuses.
56% of black male students made no excuses.
78% of white male studens made no excuses.


do you think any of these that graduated had any issues at home? maybe some obstacles to overcome? they sure did. we all did. always someone better off than you. always someone worse off. the education system cannot be held responsible for the failures in and around the home. i think no child left behind is a bullshit. i think no child should be left without a chance to succeed. maybe even a 2nd chance. but 3 strikes, your out. don't drag down the education quality of the students that give a damn.

i don't know how to make the parents that don't care, suddenly care. if i could fix that, i believe the graduation rate would skyrocket. i know it's not always that easy, but that is where it has to start.


To those who agree with the above, but mainly Zak and Shelly,

This is the question I would love someone to answer me. If it all starts in the home, which I'm not disputing or agreeing with, but why do black and hispanic kids show much a much lower rate of finishing high school.

If it all starts in the homes, why is there a difference when you look at the numbers split down racial lines?

Does this imply that more hispanics and blacks come from broken homes? If so, why?

[MannyIsGod]

On the subject of vocational training,

Some of you may think it is acceptable for half of hispanics in this state to not complete high school, I do not. Not by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Are you telling me that you find it perfectly accetable for one half of hispanics to fill nothing more than "cooks, janitors, and low wage jobs"? This is a problem any way you look at it

I have no problem with an educationaly system that is voluntary and allows people to better plan for life and get job specific training as early as the high school level. But you also need to realize that traditional vocational programs have little use in our society. A good 3/4ths of all the positions in today's working world (I am using loose numbers, but the figures are around 70%) require the use of computers and other highy advanced equipment.

We don't live in the same economy that allows familys to live off the single income of steel mill worker, and those jobs are steadily declining due to globalization.

Globalization has the impact of removing low wage jobs from this country and exporting them to countries where there is cheaper labor to be found. In order to keep pace, we must provide a workforce that is educated on a much higher level. We are failing to do that and it is going to seriously hurt the average American in the long run.

The government can keep touting rising GDP while corporations based in America, but unless we do something in order to help our work force stay ahead of the curve, we are in for a suprise. You need look no further than the influx of highly educated Indians at all of the major corporations here in town. I have no problem with them making the best of their opportunities, but I would like for our society to be equiped to compete.

For instance, San Antonio has long been a customer service/call center hub. There are many jobs in that market here that appeal to people without a college degree because they are able to make a decent wage while having only a high school diploma.

Those jobs are being exported to call centers in India where the workers are making less,and have one if not two college degrees involving the subject matter.

A vocational system is fine, but the reailty is that in order to compete in the job market we have here, this vocational system is going to have to consist of training that is at a collegiate level.

[spurster]

On vocational educaton:

Do any of you know what high schools offer any more? If you look at the Northside high school course catalog:

http://www.nisd.net/pdf/instruction/HSCourseCatalogWeb.pdf

you will see that a large part of it (page 8 onwards) is on Career and Technology, an alias for Vocational Education as far as I can tell.

[Guru of Nothing]

To those who agree with the above, but mainly Zak and Shelly,

This is the question I would love someone to answer me. If it all starts in the home, which I'm not disputing or agreeing with, but why do black and hispanic kids show much a much lower rate of finishing high school.

If it all starts in the homes, why is there a difference when you look at the numbers split down racial lines?

Does this imply that more hispanics and blacks come from broken homes? If so, why?

Maybe for some people, dropping out is the path of least resistance?

Maybe dropping out is contagious, and by that, I mean in the form of peer pressure?

Maybe there are bad people in school who serve no real purpose but to drag everyone else down?

I'm just asking.

[MannyIsGod]

All of that may be very well true in some respect.

But the question I want answered is what is the factor that makes this effect monorities more?

BTW, When I gradated, I took classes to prepare you to enter the job market. I made it a point to take classes such as Typing, MicroComputer Applications, and I was in CO-OP work programs my last 2 years in HS. I did it because my family needed more money, and I had to work, but it led me to getting skills which looked pretty damn nice on my resume at the age of 18.

I'm not opposed to this type of training, but the reality is that it's not a cakewalk either. I see no reason to expect atrition rates to drop based simply on providing a different course plan because the courses aren't all that different from what I would have taken otherwise.

We're not talking a shop class where you don't learn. We're talking a classroom environment that requires much the same that a college preperation schedule requires. Advocates of vocational training in today's job marketplace need to understand that.

[Shelly]

I dunno, Manny. I wish I had an answer.

I do believe that a lot of times you are a product of your environment.

[Guru of Nothing]

But the question I want answered is what is the factor that makes this effect monorities more?


I don't know.

You are looking at this from the top down. To answer the question, I'd suggest talking to dozens of dropouts, one-to-one, and see if a pattern reveals itself.

[JoeChalupa]

I hope to see this trend change as more and more minorities receive college degrees and pass on their success to their children.
My father, I believe, who didn't finish high school was determined that his children did. He pushed us hard to graduate from HS but then for college we were on our own so to speak.

I truly believe that those parents who plant the seeds of success in their child's young minds will reap those rewards when they become adults. I don't know what the answer is but I see it in my own family.
One sibling has his kids going to college, the other has none of her kids going to college. Both raised by the same parents. Go figure.

[bigzak25]

well, by the nature of the word minority, there are less blacks and hispanics than whites in texas. therefore, similar numbers of drop-outs will result in higher percentages.

other than that, it will come down to environment and perpetuation of past problems over generations. families that are pumping out multiple children when they cannot even take care of one....and i mean emotionally, much less financially.

i would like to see the data of how many kids the avg. latino, black, and white family are having....compare that to income, and you will see why we are having problems.

easy to look at the per capita in the schools. lets look at it in the homes.

[Clandestino]

On the subject of vocational training,

Some of you may think it is acceptable for half of hispanics in this state to not complete high school, I do not. Not by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Are you telling me that you find it perfectly accetable for one half of hispanics to fill nothing more than "cooks, janitors, and low wage jobs"? This is a problem any way you look at it

I have no problem with an educationaly system that is voluntary and allows people to better plan for life and get job specific training as early as the high school level. But you also need to realize that traditional vocational programs have little use in our society. A good 3/4ths of all the positions in today's working world (I am using loose numbers, but the figures are around 70%) require the use of computers and other highy advanced equipment.

We don't live in the same economy that allows familys to live off the single income of steel mill worker, and those jobs are steadily declining due to globalization.

Globalization has the impact of removing low wage jobs from this country and exporting them to countries where there is cheaper labor to be found. In order to keep pace, we must provide a workforce that is educated on a much higher level. We are failing to do that and it is going to seriously hurt the average American in the long run.

The government can keep touting rising GDP while corporations based in America, but unless we do something in order to help our work force stay ahead of the curve, we are in for a suprise. You need look no further than the influx of highly educated Indians at all of the major corporations here in town. I have no problem with them making the best of their opportunities, but I would like for our society to be equiped to compete.

For instance, San Antonio has long been a customer service/call center hub. There are many jobs in that market here that appeal to people without a college degree because they are able to make a decent wage while having only a high school diploma.

Those jobs are being exported to call centers in India where the workers are making less,and have one if not two college degrees involving the subject matter.

A vocational system is fine, but the reailty is that in order to compete in the job market we have here, this vocational system is going to have to consist of training that is at a collegiate level.

why does everything have to be a race issue?

[MannyIsGod]

When peole aren't seperated economicly and socialy race will cease to be an issue.

[Clandestino]

When peole aren't seperated economicly and socialy race will cease to be an issue.

when people stop trying to use race as their excuse for poverty they will bridge the economic and social gap.

[MannyIsGod]

It's not an excuse. The problem is that you can't grasp the concept I'm presenting to you.

You can't grasp that regardless of the reason, a dispraportionate number of minorities is being affected in a negative manner.

Why is that Clan, do you have an answer that is well thought out, or are you simply going to say that it all starts in the home?

And if it all does start in the home, why are minorities coming from homes where they aren't being set up for success? Why?

You seem to take this discussion and morph it into a "I'm poor because I'm mexican" thing, and that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is far more likely for a minority to fall into these social pitfalls than a non minority, and I have the numbers to back it up.

So, are you able to provide a reason?

[JoeChalupa]

When peole aren't seperated economicly and socialy race will cease to be an issue.

Then race will never cease to be an issue. People have been separated economically and socially since the beginning of time.
The have's (who had fire) were envied by those who didn't.
The have's (who had weapons) dominated those who didn't.
The have's (Eve) tempted the one didn't (Adam).

It is a never ending cycle.

God knows I'd love to live in a perfect world where "money" isn't the measure of one's social status.

Kumbayah may happen....at the end of time.

[Clandestino]

It's not an excuse. The problem is that you can't grasp the concept I'm presenting to you.

You can't grasp that regardless of the reason, a dispraportionate number of minorities is being affected in a negative manner.

Why is that Clan, do you have an answer that is well thought out, or are you simply going to say that it all starts in the home?

And if it all does start in the home, why are minorities coming from homes where they aren't being set up for success? Why?

You seem to take this discussion and morph it into a "I'm poor because I'm mexican" thing, and that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is far more likely for a minority to fall into these social pitfalls than a non minority, and I have the numbers to back it up.

So, are you able to provide a reason?

there are many successful minorities... that means it can be done... no excuses... i was raised by a single mother...3 siblings.. by the time i was 22 i was making 6 figures...i have my own house, car, dog, motorcycle, etc... if i can do it, so can anyone else... stop making excuses and do something with your life...(not directed towards you, but to the have nots)

[MannyIsGod]

You're still not getting it. I never said that being a minority means you can't succeed. There are numersous cases of minoirties being more than successfull and there are numerous cases where non minorities fail to succeed. You can't diagnose and solve sociatal trends and problems by looking at a select few individuals.


So once again, why is there a dispraportionate numbe of minioritis being effected by social problems?

[Clandestino]

You're still not getting it. I never said that being a minority means you can't succeed. There are numersous cases of minoirties being more than successfull and there are numerous cases where non minorities fail to succeed. You can't diagnose and solve sociatal trends and problems by looking at a select few individuals.


So once again, why is there a dispraportionate numbe of minioritis being effected by social problems?

they choose to...

nobody is going to get you out of poverty to be nice.. you have to get yourself out regardless of your circumstances... if you choose not to, then it is your choice

[JoeChalupa]

I also don't measure success by the number of digits in your income.

As Mother Teresa said..
"When you leave this earth you will not be judged by they wage you earn, the homes you have, the cars you own but rather....
I was hungry, and you gave me to eat.
I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink.
I was naked, and you clothed me.
I was homeless, and you took me in."

I know it all sounds foolish but that is what I believe.

[MannyIsGod]

So you're telling me that minorities are more likely than non minorities to "choose to" be part of social problems?

Ok, then the next logical question is why are minorities more likely to choose to be part of social problems?

[JoeChalupa]

Not everyone "chooses" to be poor.

[Clandestino]

So you're telling me that minorities are more likely than non minorities to "choose to" be part of social problems?

Ok, then the next logical question is why are minorities more likely to choose to be part of social problems?

one part is probably because they choose to have 50 kids when they truthfully can't afford 1..

[MannyIsGod]

I don't want "one part", I want a complete answer and I want numbers and studies to back up what you have to say.

[Clandestino]

I don't want "one part", I want a complete answer and I want numbers and studies to back up what you have to say.

are you writing a research paper or what? how do you not know that minorities have more kids than non-whites??? it is like this in every country. even europeans have less kids..that is why many countries are experiencing negative population growth patterns...

[JoeChalupa]

I feel ignored.

[bigzak25]

sup joe!

[Clandestino]

I feel ignored.

:lol

what do you want someone to pay attention to you about?

[JoeChalupa]

:oops I think the answer is within each person.
Some will not take "no" for an answer while others allow "no" to be their answer.

[desflood]

Going back to the original title of the thread, I've found news articles from multiple states which indicate sharp rises in dropout rates after the implementation of tough standardized testing.

[Clandestino]

Going back to the original title of the thread, I've found news articles from multiple states which indicate sharp rises in dropout rates after the implementation of tough standardized testing.

well, if you are afraid of a standarized test, you should drop out... you have no place in academics... only retards can't pass standardized tests...

[Drachen]

well, if you are afraid of a standarized test, you should drop out... you have no place in academics... only retards can't pass standardized tests...

I have a friend who is incredibly smart, has two degrees, and can talk about almost every subject under the sun, who failed the math part of the TASP three times. She had to pass it to sign up for classes in her last semester and she got a study book. She called me up at 11 the night before the test and I stayed at her place until 5 teaching her the test. She ended up getting 92% percentile. What I am trying to say is that retards arent the only ones who cant pass those tests.

[MannyIsGod]

are you writing a research paper or what? how do you not know that minorities have more kids than non-whites??? it is like this in every country. even europeans have less kids..that is why many countries are experiencing negative population growth patterns...

No, I'm trying to get you to actually do a bit of thinking. Provide some figures that show that minorities have higher family size. It's not that hard.

Also, is the larger family size the cause or a symptom of the problem? Is it a by product of living in poverty or is it the a leading contributer to poverty? And is our lack of a good sex edcuation system in the public education system not a contributor to the larger family sizes?

I don't agree that family size is a leading cause of disparity like this. It may be a contributor, but it may also be a symptom at the same time.

I would argue that your reasoning for declining population values are not as simple as you'd like to make them out to be also.

You seem so afraid and so unwilling to look at this issue from a different perspective.

[MannyIsGod]

well, if you are afraid of a standarized test, you should drop out... you have no place in academics... only retards can't pass standardized tests...

Really? What if the reason they can't pass the test is an inadequete education system?

[desflood]

What makes you think there's something wrong with the sex education in the public school system?

[MannyIsGod]

What makes you think there's something wrong with the sex education in the public school system?

:lmao

Oh, nothing! It's just daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandy.

[Drachen]

I dont know what they are teaching right now, but from what I understand it is already almost "ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE oh and use a condom if you do it", and I do know that "abstinence only" education is at least being pushed real hard. Now while this approach is the most successful (somewhere around 100%) it is the least realistic. Dont get into all that BS about kids shouldnt be having sex either thats a different issue. Kids have been having sex since the beginning of time, even in the wholesome Ozzie and Harriet days. We need to teach them how to do it safely

[travis2]

No, I'm trying to get you to actually do a bit of thinking. Provide some figures that show that minorities have higher family size. It's not that hard.

Also, is the larger family size the cause or a symptom of the problem? Is it a by product of living in poverty or is it the a leading contributer to poverty? And is our lack of a good sex edcuation system in the public education system not a contributor to the larger family sizes?

I don't agree that family size is a leading cause of disparity like this. It may be a contributor, but it may also be a symptom at the same time.

I would argue that your reasoning for declining population values are not as simple as you'd like to make them out to be also.

You seem so afraid and so unwilling to look at this issue from a different perspective.

1. In some cases there is a cultural aspect to it. I do not mean Mexican or African or whatever...do not try to assign a racial aspect to this.

HOWEVER...it is known that in some circles, getting a good education is viewed as "being too white". So peer pressure comes into play.

2. If your family is poor, and has always been poor, there will be pressure to quit school to go to work to support your family. It has been this way as long as there has been a country. And as long as the parental outlook in these families is "hey, I didn't need no education and I ain't got no problems, the boy just needs to get off his @$$ and work", that pressure will never go away.

3. Some kids just can't handle the material. Not everyone is mentally put together to be a physicist, or a mathematician, or an expert in Elizabethan literature, or whatever. Peoples brains are individual. This isn't racism or classism...it's reality.

4. Some kids are just f***ing lazy. For whatever reason. Parents don't care, running with the wrong crowd, whatever.


There's 4 items, all relevant.

[travis2]

I dont know what they are teaching right now, but from what I understand it is already almost "ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE oh and use a condom if you do it", and I do know that "abstinence only" education is at least being pushed real hard. Now while this approach is the most successful (somewhere around 100%) it is the least realistic. Dont get into all that BS about kids shouldnt be having sex either thats a different issue. Kids have been having sex since the beginning of time, even in the wholesome Ozzie and Harriet days. We need to teach them how to do it safely

You stay the fuck away from my kids.

Safely??? Oh sure, let the little minks fuck anything that moves, yeah, that'll be great. Except guess what, Einstein? Condoms break. Some viruses are able to pass through the condom.

Safe sex? It's a fallacy, and idiots like you are the reason we have an STD problem. The lies have been coming from your side of the political spectrum.

[Clandestino]

I have a friend who is incredibly smart, has two degrees, and can talk about almost every subject under the sun, who failed the math part of the TASP three times. She had to pass it to sign up for classes in her last semester and she got a study book. She called me up at 11 the night before the test and I stayed at her place until 5 teaching her the test. She ended up getting 92% percentile. What I am trying to say is that retards arent the only ones who cant pass those tests.

i guess she didn't try enough hard the first 3 times... there is also such a thing as overstudying...

[desflood]

I dont know what they are teaching right now, but from what I understand it is already almost "ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE oh and use a condom if you do it", and I do know that "abstinence only" education is at least being pushed real hard. Now while this approach is the most successful (somewhere around 100%) it is the least realistic. Dont get into all that BS about kids shouldnt be having sex either thats a different issue. Kids have been having sex since the beginning of time, even in the wholesome Ozzie and Harriet days. We need to teach them how to do it safely
Edwin J. Feulner, Ph.D.
July 23, 2002
“Safe Sex”: Time To Abstain
Let’s be realistic, say critics of President Bush’s proposal to spend $135 million next year on “abstinence only” sex education: Kids are gonna be kids.
So it would be “dangerous and unnecessary” to increase spending on abstinence programs, Rep. James Greenwood, R-Pa., wrote in a letter to the president. “There is no scientific evidence that ‘abstinence only until marriage’ programs work.”
But there is. In fact, my Heritage Foundation colleague Robert Rector has found that “abstinence only” programs have a record of success that the “if you’re gonna do it, do it safely” programs can’t match.
One “abstinence only” program, for example, calls on teenagers to take a “virginity pledge.” Researchers used a sample of more than 5,000 students to evaluate it for the American Journal of Sociology. They found that taking the pledge reduces by one-third the probability that an adolescent will begin sexual activity. Pair the pledge with strong parental disapproval of pre-marital sex, and the probability that teens will become sexually active drops by 75 percent or more.
Another program, called “Not Me, Not Now,” used radio and TV ads to promote abstinence among teenagers in Monroe County, N.Y. A study published in the Journal of Health Communications found that during the period the ads were being aired, the pregnancy rate for girls aged 15 to 17 fell from 63.4 pregnancies per 1,000 girls to 49.5 pregnancies. The sexual activity rate of 15-year-olds across the county, meanwhile, dropped from 46.6 percent to 31.6 percent.
Then there’s the Abstinence by Choice program, which operates in 20 schools in the Little Rock, Ark. area. It targets seventh-, eighth- and ninth-grade students and reaches about 4,000 youths each year. A researcher at Case Western Reserve University’s School of Medicine, using a sample of nearly 1,000 students, found the program reduced the sexual activity rates of girls by about 40 percent and the rate for boys by approximately 30 percent, compared with similar students who weren’t in the program.
Other “abstinence only” programs, from Operation Keepsake in Cleveland to the Teen Aid Family Life Education Project in California and five other states, show similar results. Research conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute found that the Postponing Sexual Involvement program in Atlanta reduced sexual initiation rates among eighth-grade boys by 60 percent and among eighth-grade girls by 95 percent.

[travis2]

^^^yes!!

[TheMrPeanut]

Of course abstinence reduces the chances of pregnancy or a STD.
Any nut knows that.

[Drachen]

You stay the fuck away from my kids.

Safely??? Oh sure, let the little minks fuck anything that moves, yeah, that'll be great. Except guess what, Einstein? Condoms break. Some viruses are able to pass through the condom.
Safe sex? It's a fallacy, and idiots like you are the reason we have an STD problem. The lies have been coming from your side of the political spectrum.

And things like this need to be discussed in sexual education, and to dispute the fallacies that are being passed around by teenagers as truths, such as if you take a shower immediately afterwards you cant get pregnant. I have never disputed abstinance as the best way to avoid those problems, I just put forth that its unrealistic to think that kids are going to follow it. Parents REALLY REALLY want to believe that they will (OH NO NOT MY KIDS), but thats just not reality. Although I do applaud their idealism.

[travis2]

And things like this need to be discussed in sexual education, and to dispute the fallacies that are being passed around by teenagers as truths, such as if you take a shower immediately afterwards you cant get pregnant. I have never disputed abstinance as the best way to avoid those problems, I just put forth that its unrealistic to think that kids are going to follow it. Parents REALLY REALLY want to believe that they will (OH NO NOT MY KIDS), but thats just not reality. Although I do applaud their idealism.

Teach them what? That if you put a condom on everything's OK???

If you want to teach your kids that, then have at it. That's your business.

But we don't have to do jack shit. How I raise my kids is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You have NO RIGHTS in MY house.

And BTW...it's not IDEALISM. It's called getting the f*** up off your fat @$$ and RAISING your kids instead of depending on the government, or the schools, or "the village" to raise them FOR you.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm glad abstinence teaching reaches some kids. It's a damn shame that since it doesn't elminate teenage sex (the words premarital sex can go kiss my ass), those kids who still do have sex (and there's a large number isn't there?) don't get the proper education.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW Travis, I do want to say that you sound like a good parent. I think if you were the average parent, these conversations would be moot as would these problems.

[travis2]

I think if you were the average parent, these conversations would be moot as would these problems.

I think you're right...

(Thanks, BTW...:))

[Clandestino]

regardless of what is taught kids are going to have sex... may as well teach them to do it properly...

[travis2]

:pctoss

[Clandestino]

:pctoss

how old are you? how many high school kids do you know? i know many are having sex...even the so called, "good kids"

[travis2]

41 with 2 of my own.

[desflood]

Manny, kids in public schools get complete sex ed courses pretty early on in life. Jocelyn Elders saw to that.

[desflood]

Actually, let's take another tack. Let's compare teenage pregnancy rates from the 40's and 50's to the rates today. Pretty f*cking low in comparison! You know why? Because back then, children were taught to NOT HAVE SEX UNTIL THEY WERE MARRIED. What a concept...

[Clandestino]

Actually, let's take another tack. Let's compare teenage pregnancy rates from the 40's and 50's to the rates today. Pretty f*cking low in comparison! You know why? Because back then, children were taught to NOT HAVE SEX UNTIL THEY WERE MARRIED. What a concept...

great point...

[desflood]

Study of New York Abstinence Program Finds Dramatic Decline in Teen Sexual Activity

Dr. Trevor Stammers, a senior tutor in general practice at St George's Hospital medical school in London, said research shows abstinence education was effective at delaying the age at which young people first had sex. He highlighted research from the United States which found some abstinence programs were successful. In a New York pro-abstinence program the percentage of 15 year-olds who were having sex fell from 47 percent to 32 percent after three years. He said the approach had been shown to cut teenage pregnancy rates and reduce the risk of sexually-transmitted diseases.

Writing in the Postgraduate Medical Journal, Dr. Stammers said—in light of these data-- that the United Kingdom Government's dismissal of abstinence education was "deeply regrettable". Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe. By the age of 13, one in 14 teenagers in England has had sex and 42 in every 1,000 girls aged 15-17 are pregnant.

Dr. Stammers warned: "It will certainly take more than condoms to reverse the tide of sexually transmitted infections engulfing young people in Britain."

In the UK over the last six years cases of chlamydia have risen by 108 percent, gonorrhea rates have doubled and syphilis is up by 500 percent.

[2centsworth]

And if it all does start in the home, why are minorities coming from homes where they aren't being set up for success? Why?

I think I have a reason for you. let's use Hispanics for example, many hispanic parents don't have highschool diplomas or college degrees compared to anglo parents. Immigration is probably the number one reason why that is. Hispanics can never catch up because of the millions of immigrants who come from Mexico who can barely speak english. This is not an anti-immgration post either, it's just a fact.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, I definetly think they issues when they come to hispanics due tend to stem a lot more from immigration and intergration issues. I'm a first generation American, and I can hold first hand account as to why that makes a situation difficult.

I'll swallow my views on America's role in damaging Mexico through certain Manifest Destiney motivated wars.

I think it's a totaly different ballgame when you speak about African American's however.

[Jekka]

Actually, let's take another tack. Let's compare teenage pregnancy rates from the 40's and 50's to the rates today. Pretty f*cking low in comparison! You know why? Because back then, children were taught to NOT HAVE SEX UNTIL THEY WERE MARRIED. What a concept...

What if you never get married? What if you get married and your partner gives you an STD they acquired before the marriage that they didn't know about because they didn't know how to use proper protection before and get tested? What if someone's not faithful (and don't use the "well you shouldn't marry them if you don't think they will be faithful" junk, because shit happens) and gives you an STD? It happens all the time. Waiting until marriage is a great idea, but even if you do it's not fool-proof. Education is necessary for anyone and everyone that will ever have sex.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh by the way, society doesn't live in a bubble, and I seriously doubt that raised rates of STDs are since the 50s are mainly caused by the type of sex ed offered in schools. Maybe you should take a look at a few other variables.

[desflood]

No, the raised rates of STDs among teenagers are due to them having sex when they shouldn't.

[desflood]

Another thing we haven't even discussed is the mental and emotional impact having sex too early has on kids. But that's another thread entirely!

[dcole50]

Actually, let's take another tack. Let's compare teenage pregnancy rates from the 40's and 50's to the rates today. Pretty f*cking low in comparison! You know why? Because back then, children were taught to NOT HAVE SEX UNTIL THEY WERE MARRIED. What a concept...

if you want to live by that "concept" then that's fine. if not, then practice safe sex. you can teach kids not to have sex until marriage all you want, but i don't think that's going to stop most.

[2centsworth]

Yeah, I definetly think they issues when they come to hispanics due tend to stem a lot more from immigration and intergration issues. I'm a first generation American, and I can hold first hand account as to why that makes a situation difficult.

I'll swallow my views on America's role in damaging Mexico through certain Manifest Destiney motivated wars.

I think it's a totaly different ballgame when you speak about African American's however. The culture in the African American community has done a great job of popularizing being uneducated. As a whole people who speak proper english in the black community are treated as sell outs, or as trying to be white.

BTW, I'll swallow my views on America being a positive effect for the world and not a damaging one.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, I'll swallow my views on America being a positive effect for the world and not a damaging one.

I guess the liberated the SouthWest from Mexican opression?

I never brought the entire world into this, although thats a debateable positiohn as well

[2centsworth]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/no.gifYou're not swallowing.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

[desflood]

if you want to live by that "concept" then that's fine. if not, then practice safe sex. you can teach kids not to have sex until marriage all you want, but i don't think that's going to stop most.
That "concept" is more like a reality. Most kids live and die by their parents approval (unless they have crappy parents). If parents express that they believe teenage sex is wrong, kids will listen. The problem is, parents have given up on their kids.

[Jekka]

That "concept" is more like a reality. Most kids live and die by their parents approval (unless they have crappy parents). If parents express that they believe teenage sex is wrong, kids will listen. The problem is, parents have given up on their kids.

I laughed when I read that. I know very few people who live and die by their parents' approval. I may have lived in fear of my parents when I was at home, but that never really stopped me from doing anything they didn't approve of. And I had good parents by comparison to many - my parents were there at home all the time, I had a very strong Christian upbringing, etc. All you can really do is let your kids know how you feel, try to give them a good moral foundation on which to base their judgment so they're more likely to be safe, and hope for the best.

[desflood]

Hope for the best... sounds almost like giving up. You know, there are those things called rules, and they are enforceable... but I suppose that "concept" is also too old-fashioned or outdated for most people now.

[Jekka]

Hope for the best... sounds almost like giving up. You know, there are those things called rules, and they are enforceable... but I suppose that "concept" is also too old-fashioned or outdated for most people now.

I'm not saying that kids whose parents care don't have a leg up on avoiding destructive behaviors. But more than strict moral adherence there's responsibility - and if you can teach a child that, then the other desirable behaviors kind of fall into place. I'm not saying to give up, and there should be rules and those rules should be enforced whenever possible, but you can't always know what kids are doing - you can't have your eye on them all the time - they're going to do stuff that you might never find out about, until maybe it's too late. Isn't it better to give them the facts on safety and responsibility just in case?

[desflood]

You do make a good point, especially on the responsibility issue. That's also what my parents stressed. Mom sat me down one day and said, "I'll only say this once. If you ever come home pregnant, you are outta here. If you're old enough to engage in such adult behavior, then you had also better be old enough to have a job and a place to live." It was her way of telling me not to have sex, of course! And it worked. No kids until well into my marriage. So, even if abstinence was never mentioned by name, the message came through loud and clear. You have an excellent argument, but I guess I am just hopeless! It just seems like giving them all the info on safe sex is like saying, we know you're going to do this no matter what we say, so here's how.

[MannyIsGod]

The thing is, when there is such a high level of sex in our society, it is absolutely impossible to reach every child with abstinence education. It has a positive effect, and I think teaching children the benefits of abstinence is important. However, safe sex education is just as important for those who are not going to be reached by abstinence, and for those who are reached by it. They are going to have sex at some point, and it's important to know the facts.

[travis2]

The thing is, when there is such a high level of sex in our society, it is absolutely impossible to reach every child with abstinence education. It has a positive effect, and I think teaching children the benefits of abstinence is important. However, safe sex education is just as important for those who are not going to be reached by abstinence, and for those who are reached by it. They are going to have sex at some point, and it's important to know the facts.

And that is the problem I have with the entire debate, for reasons I have already delineated in this thread.

[desflood]

The thing is, when there is such a high level of sex in our society, it is absolutely impossible to reach every child with abstinence education. It has a positive effect, and I think teaching children the benefits of abstinence is important. However, safe sex education is just as important for those who are not going to be reached by abstinence, and for those who are reached by it. They are going to have sex at some point, and it's important to know the facts.
It's possible to reach every child who attends school.

[Clandestino]

It's possible to reach every child who attends school.

i don't think he actually meant reach in terms of having access to a child.. i think he meant the message actually sinking into the students mind...

[MannyIsGod]

Reducing the Risk, a program for high school students in urban and rural areas in California, used behavior theory-based activities to reduce unprotected intercourse, either by helping teens avoid sex or use protection. Ninth and 10th graders attended 15 sessions as part of their regular health education classes and participated in role playing and experimental activities to build skills and self-efficacy. As a result, a greater proportion of students who were abstinent before the program successfully remained abstinent, and unprotected intercourse was significantly reduced for those students who became sexually active.(11)

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/sexedtext.html

[desflood]

Diseases like HPV (the virus that causes cervical cancer) and herpes are spread by skin contact, despite condom use. There really is no such thing as "protected" sex.

[desflood]

Oral sex lessons to cut rates of teenage pregnancy

Mark Townsend
Sunday May 9, 2004
The Observer

Encouraging schoolchildren to experiment with oral sex could prove the most effective way of curbing teenage pregnancy rates, a government study has found.
Pupils under 16 who were taught to consider other forms of 'intimacy' such as oral sex were significantly less likely to engage in full intercourse, it was revealed.

Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is the highest in Europe. In 2002 there were 39,286 teen pregnancies recorded. The government has spent more than £60 million to tackle the problem but so far failed to halt the rise.

A sex education course developed by Exeter University trains teachers to talk to teenagers about 'stopping points' before full sex.

Now an unpublished government-backed report reveals that a trial of the course has been a success. Schoolchildren, particularly girls, who received such training developed a 'more mature' response to sex.


The US is now considering this as well. Don't know about you, but I'm not too keen on some teacher telling my daughter to experiment with blowjobs to avoid intercourse.

[MannyIsGod]

Nevermind, I better not touch this, even with a ten foot pole. Jekka censored me, and rightfully so.

[Jekka]

Diseases like HPV (the virus that causes cervical cancer) and herpes are spread by skin contact, despite condom use. There really is no such thing as "protected" sex.

HPV isn't really one of the STDs normally discussed either, which scares me because it's becoming so incredibly widespread. Men can give it to women without knowing they carry it because they don't exhibit symptoms, and don't get tested frequently enough. Also, a lot of women don't get yearly PAP smears like they should, and sometimes that's because women don't know they need to be getting yearly checkups as soon as they are sexually active, which is often before they reach the recommended age of 18. Cervical cancer, from the firsthand stories I've been told, is awful to deal with, especially if you don't get it diagnosed soon.

[desflood]

And the real thing about HPV is, you can give it to someone even if you aren't having an outbreak. That's not common knowledge either.

[desflood]

Cervical cancer is 99% curable, IF, like you said Jekka, it is detected early.

[rattler65]

IDRA is a federally funded and supported not for profit agency and will do anything to keep their doors open and their liberal views at the forefront.

[rattler65]

Any agency will skew the numbers to show the plight of schools to keep their funding.

[Clandestino]

Oral sex lessons to cut rates of teenage pregnancy

Mark Townsend
Sunday May 9, 2004
The Observer

Encouraging schoolchildren to experiment with oral sex could prove the most effective way of curbing teenage pregnancy rates, a government study has found.
Pupils under 16 who were taught to consider other forms of 'intimacy' such as oral sex were significantly less likely to engage in full intercourse, it was revealed.

Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is the highest in Europe. In 2002 there were 39,286 teen pregnancies recorded. The government has spent more than £60 million to tackle the problem but so far failed to halt the rise.

A sex education course developed by Exeter University trains teachers to talk to teenagers about 'stopping points' before full sex.

Now an unpublished government-backed report reveals that a trial of the course has been a success. Schoolchildren, particularly girls, who received such training developed a 'more mature' response to sex.


The US is now considering this as well. Don't know about you, but I'm not too keen on some teacher telling my daughter to experiment with blowjobs to avoid intercourse.

this is nuts! those crazy brits! gonna be a lot of lucky brits! hahaha

[MannyIsGod]

Rattler,

If you can provide information and research to counter what IDRA says, I'd love to see it. I have a feeling you're not going to be able too.