some GOP governeners don't want stimulus

[cool hand]

fuck 'em



give it all to California.:lol

[Wild Cobra]

Let California be fucked. The citizens vote in socialists that drain the coffers with a system set up to drain the coffers more in times of economic downturn. The people screws themselves. Fuck them.

have you noticed how in general, the liberal controlled states are worse off then the conservative run states?

Socialism is great, until you run out of people to pay for it.

[LockBeard]

It's all an act.

No politician turns down 17 billion. Strings attached be damned.

[balli]

have you noticed how in general, the liberal controlled states are worse off then the conservative run states?

Socialism is great, until you run out of people to pay for it.
You fucking cocksucker cobra, you're so wrong. I'd suggest you look up which states are using the most federal dollars while paying the least in taxes. Because 8 of the top 10 are traditionally red states.

[baseline bum]

You fucking Republican cocksucker cobra, you're so wrong. I'd suggest you look up which states are using the most federal dollars while paying the least in taxes. Because 8 of the top 10 are traditionally red states.

Fixed

[LockBeard]

Of course Wild Cobra and the republicans are as balijuana says, otherwise balijuana would have a hard time coming to grips that he is a blind fool.

And that would after all be....hard. Can't have that.



Bali and the rest of you losers talk down to conservatives/reps/whatever yet you have NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM taking their money. Let that sink in, bitches.

[Winehole23]

Let California be fucked. The citizens vote in socialists that drain the coffers with a system set up to drain the coffers more in times of economic downturn. The people screws themselves. Fuck them.

have you noticed how in general, the liberal controlled states are worse off then the conservative run states?PFA, or do you have support for this?

In CA you have the worst of both worlds. Closed primaries in CA drag both parties closer to the extremes, and legislative referendums leave the state susceptible to special interests tapping into transient populist moods.

Unwillingness to pare spending is part of the equation, but the Proposition 13 tax revolt, which capped ad valorem taxes at 1% and required supermajorities for all state budget bills and tax measures, has wrecked comity between the parties, kneecapped California's ability to pay for itself, and has artificially raised the price of housing for all Californians.

I make a distinction between California's political leadership and its populace. The state is important culturally, economically and electorally. A lot of Americans live there. Suggesting they do not deserve help because their political leadership has screwed up is screwed up IMO. We're all in the same boat.

[Wild Cobra]

Suggesting they do not deserve help because their political leadership has screwed up is screwed up IMO. We're all in the same boat.

Maybe when the people realize they vote in politicians doing the state harm, they will cast their votes better informed the next time.

Tough love. Let them sleep in the bed they make.

[TDMVPDPOY]

did you see how they want china to buy more govt bonds to bail your country or fund ur stimulus? ROFLMAO.....

if i were china fuck that shit, i buy all your infrastructure and resources.....

[ducks]

part of it has some requirements if the state does not want to meet the requirements
they are smart not to accept all of it

[TDMVPDPOY]

spending more than what you earn, isnt this one of the reasons why we are in this mess? and what happens when you spend everything that was in ur deposits? back to the welfare que?

[Winehole23]

Maybe when the people realize they vote in politicians doing the state harm, they will cast their votes better informed the next time.

Tough love. Let them sleep in the bed they make.Oh, things are alright in Oregon then?

[Wild Cobra]

Oh, things are alright in Oregon then?
No, the liberals in Oregon have run this state into the ground too. I want to see change. I hope this will get conservatives in office once again.

[Winehole23]

I want to see change. I hope this will get conservatives in office once again.You mean the ones who doubled the national debt while they had power?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Until people realize that both sides and thus the two party system itself as being the problem, the nothing will change.

There has been a ton of finger pointing but at the end of the day both sides worked more or less togehter to revoke the Stengall Act which prevented banks from specualting and making unleveraged loans. That would be Clinton, Bush, Gramm, Reich and the rest of them.

Its not the parties that are the problem. Its the driving force behind them. YOu can call it the military industrial complex, special interest etc.

That being said, if you claim to be a 'conservative' --although there is nothing conservative about the actual ideology-- and make less than $100k a year or stand to get a large inheritance. You're a moron.

[Wild Cobra]

You mean the ones who doubled the national debt while they had power?

The last time we have a conservative leaders was decades ago. President Reagan had a huge run up on the national debt, but there was already double digit inflation on treasury bonds sold before he was president. His style of leadership and policies is what we need now. Not robbing our children with the $700 billion elitist lender bailout, this recent $787 billion social spending bailout, and now congress is looking at more...

Fuck all of you who voted for this gang.

You have killed the heart of America. Aren't there any patriots left, on the left?

[Wild Cobra]

Until people realize that both sides and thus the two party system itself as being the problem, the nothing will change.

It is a large part of the problem. We need runoff elections where the victor must have 50%+1 votes to win.

What do you think of for every term a politician is in office and running for the same job, his percentage to win increases by 5%? Even 2%?

There has been a ton of finger pointing but at the end of the day both sides worked more or less togehter to revoke the Stengall Act which prevented banks from specualting and making unleveraged loans. That would be Clinton, Bush, Gramm, Reich and the rest of them.
Repealing the Glass-Steagall Act didn't change what lead to this crisis. Structured Investment Vehicles were already in play before repealing the act.


Its not the parties that are the problem. Its the driving force behind them. YOu can call it the military industrial complex, special interest etc.

As a vetran, I disagree. Like any large organization, it wastes money, but it is a necessary evil for a free government.


That being said, if you claim to be a 'conservative' --although there is nothing conservative about the actual ideology-- and make less than $100k a year or stand to get a large inheritance. You're a moron.

There are different aspects of being conservative. <$100k, inheritance? what are you talking about?

What I want to see is a right leaning libertarian. By nature, libertarians are fiscal conservatives and social liberals, and anti-authoritarian. We have the most authoritarian federal government since any of the world wars, or civil war!

Absolutely not acceptable.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/rightleaningfreeedom.png

[Obstructed_View]

Part of the requirement for a state to receive stimulus money is that the state stop requiring able-bodied welfare recipients to look for work. Since the state of Texas is one of the states that didn't allow people to cash out all their equity when refinancing their homes, we don't really need the money anyway, allowing the state to continue to benefit from one of the few successes of the Clinton administration.

[ChumpDumper]

Part of the requirement for a state to receive stimulus money is that the state stop requiring able-bodied welfare recipients to look for work.Do you have a link to an article saying as much?

And everything I've read says that Texas is taking the stimulus money.

[Obstructed_View]

Stimulus Bill Abolishes Welfare Reform and Adds New Welfare Spending (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/wm2287.cfm)

After reading it, there's no requirement, but it offers money to states relative to the size of the welfare roles, and requiring people to work is going to be the first thing to go because it's a quick way to vastly increase the number of people on welfare. Rewarding a government agency for bloating its budget is the surest way to make sure they'll do exactly that.

And the only thing I've read about Perry taking the money is that they're fulfilling the requirements to qualify for receiving the money while they go through it to find out if there are any requirements that are going to cost the state money in the long run. That said, I simply offered my opinion that Texas doesn't need the money, and I stand by that regardless of whether or not Perry decides to take it. I fully expect this process to cost the democrats their jobs in two years if the financial structure in this country survives that long, and whether or not Texas takes money isn't really going to make a difference either way.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, a lot of economists predict a recovery sometime next year. I guess Republicans can hope it won't happen.

[Obstructed_View]

Eh, a lot of economists predict a recovery sometime next year. I guess Republicans can hope it won't happen.

You can predict that the state governments are are going to decide against increasing the welfare roles in order to get more money and instead do the right thing if you'd like. Being realistic about it is far different from hoping it won't come about. If a dog walks out onto a freeway, I can predict that it's going to get hit while hoping it survives.

[ChumpDumper]

You can predict that the state governments are are going to decide against increasing the welfare roles in order to get more money and instead do the right thing if you'd like.You just said they didn't have to.
Being realistic about it is far different from hoping it won't come about. If a dog walks out onto a freeway, I can predict that it's going to get hit while hoping it survives.Realistically, anyone refusing the stimulus is just grandstanding in hopes of running for a higher office in the future.

[DarkReign]

have you noticed how in general, the liberal controlled states are worse off then the conservative run states?

Before this...debacle/catastrophy, this couldnt be further from the truth.

Post-debacle/catastrophy, every state is in the red. Its just some are waaaaaay more than others.

----

Side note: On this subject, I was watching Nightline the other day and they went through the states with the biggest comparative shortfalls. Dont quote my numbers now, but obviously Calli-fon-ya was #1 at some $40 Billion.

But here was a weird one...Florida is like (guessing) $3-4 Billion in the red. Fucking Rhode Island is like $2 Billion.

$2 Billion?! Fucking Rhode Island!?! Seriously? That was like, allowed to happen with a total population of like sixteen people?!

Truly amazing.

[Obstructed_View]

You just said they didn't have to.
I said no such thing. There's no requirement to eliminate the welfare to work program, but offering bonusus to the state governments based upon the size of their welfare roles might as well be. Again, you're welcome to throw meat in front of hungry tigers and be surprised when they eat it, but forgive me for not being so foolish.


Realistically, anyone refusing the stimulus is just grandstanding in hopes of running for a higher office in the future.
Or simply making sure they don't cost their state money down the road. Oh, I forgot, you think the congress is just handing out all this money to the states with no strings attached. Wake up and smell the power-grab.

[ChumpDumper]

I said no such thing. There's no requirement to eliminate the welfare to work program, but offering bonusus to the state governments based upon the size of their welfare roles might as well be. Again, you're welcome to throw meat in front of hungry tigers and be surprised when they eat it, but forgive me for not being so foolish.So you are now saying they don't have to.



Or simply making sure they don't cost their state money down the road. Oh, I forgot, you think the congress is just handing out all this money to the states with no strings attached. Wake up and smell the power-grab.:lol Texas is going to spend the money. Wake up and smell reality.

[Obstructed_View]

Wake up and smell reality.

:lol That's classic.

[Wild Cobra]

Eh, a lot of economists predict a recovery sometime next year. I guess Republicans can hope it won't happen.

Knock - knock -

Anyone home?

It's not that conservatives and republicans are hoping it won't happen, it's that they know it won't happen with what the democrats are doing. We would be in recovery mode next year if the democrats would keep their hands out of what makes capitalism work. As it stands, with democrats creating more social spending, this will be a long rough ride.

[ChumpDumper]

Knock - knock -

Anyone home?

It's not that conservatives and republicans are hoping it won't happen, it's that they know it won't happen with what the democrats are doing. We would be in recovery mode next year if the democrats would keep their hands out of what makes capitalism work. As it stands, with democrats creating more social spending, this will be a long rough ride.Knock - knock -

Anyone home?

Had conservatives actually known anything about the economy, they could have avoided this recession in the first place.

Keep your fingers crossed that things get worse, WC. It's all you have now.

[Wild Cobra]

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

have you noticed how in general, the liberal controlled states are worse off then the conservative run states? Before this...debacle/catastrophy, this couldnt be further from the truth.

Post-debacle/catastrophy, every state is in the red. Its just some are waaaaaay more than others.



Excuse me, did I say red vs. blue or republican vs. democrat?

No.

I said conservative vs. liberal.

[Wild Cobra]

Had conservatives actually known anything about the economy, they could have avoided this recession in the first place.

How many conservatives are in congress? Maybe one democrat, and at least half the republicans are RINOs.

Please. Stop mixing conservative with republican.

[ChumpDumper]

How many conservatives are in congress? Maybe one democrat, and at least half the republicans are RINOs.

Please. Stop mixing conservative with republican.Please, stop pretending you are a conservative.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dont think GOP can even fix the mess they made if they were still in govt...

fkn tools

[micca]

I'ts ominous that not even rank and file democrats approve of this porkilous bill, they're very nervous as well, oh the obamanations lap it up but not the rest of America. This is not real legislation, when a bill is voted on with out even being read, it's not serious legislation when an administration cobbles something together and then doesn't allow time for the represenatives of the people to read and discuss the bill.
This is a power grab by the ruling class to consolidate power into fewer and fewer hands.I can only imagine the real motives of the republicans for not voting for this bill,but just it's lack of TRANSPANCY is enough, and the entire democratic party are going to have this laid at thier feet when the chickens come home to roost, someone in the democratic party could have made a gesture at least at responsible goverment, to save the party some face but no.
When Putin, a man born and raised in the cradle of Socialist theroy stands up and warns the U.S. of the stupidity of socialisim it's time to use your fucking brain.

[ChumpDumper]

Why would anyone listen to Putin about anything except how to assassinate reporters in a way that makes it look like they have been assassinated?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Why would anyone listen to Putin about anything except how to assassinate reporters in a way that makes it look like they have been assassinated?

doubt he cares since he has millions or even billions locked up somewhere

[micca]

PFA, or do you have support for this?

In CA you have the worst of both worlds. Closed primaries in CA drag both parties closer to the extremes, and legislative referendums leave the state susceptible to special interests tapping into transient populist moods.

Unwillingness to pare spending is part of the equation, but the Proposition 13 tax revolt, which capped ad valorem taxes at 1% and required supermajorities for all state budget bills and tax measures, has wrecked comity between the parties, kneecapped California's ability to pay for itself, and has artificially raised the price of housing for all Californians.

I make a distinction between California's political leadership and its populace. The state is important culturally, economically and electorally. A lot of Americans live there. Suggesting they do not deserve help because their political leadership has screwed up is screwed up IMO. We're all in the same boat.

California is important to America in so far as what not to do. People outside California still see it as some El Dorado that it is not, They are blinded by it's immense wealth, but that wealth is only shared by a few.California of 30 years ago had the promise of being a great and relevant place, it was making alot of contributions to America, but not so much anymore.Today California is playground, and hunting ground for the greedy.If it was not for immigration and most importantly illegal aliens the population of the state would be going down, because of massive migrations out of the state by the middle class. It is hard to own a home, it's hard to save money, and the quality of life for people is just a political football for evil and corrupt men.California is no longer the golden state it is the gilded state.L.A. is filled with mexican and central american gangs that have turned it into a shooting gallery, blacks are being hunted and driven out of Watts and Compton by them,you may have heard of Jamil Shaw or Jamil's bill, and tons of drug money is being laundred in california by the cartels, and one of the prime bussinesses to laundry money through is southeren californian politicians.
Northeren Ca. real estate has become a roulette wheel, the hippie dippy ecolgoy bull shit is just that bull shit, Ca. does this minstral show of progressive ecology crap and yet it builds, and builds, and builds, and does nothing to curb population growth. northeren Ca. sonoma and napa counties were filled with incrediblly diverse farms,but now it's all one giant monoculture of wineries draining the salmon runs dry so rich dilitenes have a country place, and a vanity winery, where there are five star resturants on every corner, and you can enjoy a 400 dollar lunch without have to see the plebes.The State is killing the middle class and the working class, and the democrtic ideal as well , but hey if your rich and indolent it's a great place.

[micca]

Why would anyone listen to Putin about anything except how to assassinate reporters in a way that makes it look like they have been assassinated?

Oh they might listen to him because he is a man whose run a country through a terrible time, He is well versed in power and evil, and he doesn't live in his mother's basement.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Tell GOP to return the money they ransached IRAQs rebuilding fund through the sales of oil.

US$27billion precisely.....and i havnt seen shit being rebuilt in iraq.....

who needs afghanistan as a new golden triangle for drugs when you got tijuana just south of the border.....

[PixelPusher]

Oh they might listen to him because he is a man whose run a country through a terrible time, He is well versed in power and evil, and he doesn't live in his mother's basement.

That you look up to a former-KGB, current Mob Boss on how to run a democracy does not speak well of you.

[Obstructed_View]

Knock - knock -

Anyone home?

Had conservatives actually known anything about the economy, they could have avoided this recession in the first place.

Keep your fingers crossed that things get worse, WC. It's all you have now.

Had republicans done what they promised to do in 1994, there'd be term limits and none of this would have happened. I'll never forgive them for that.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Knock - knock -

Anyone home?

It's not that conservatives and republicans are hoping it won't happen, it's that they know it won't happen with what the democrats are doing. We would be in recovery mode next year if the democrats would keep their hands out of what makes capitalism work. As it stands, with democrats creating more social spending, this will be a long rough ride.

So what happens when the economy does turn around? Do the people who railed against the stimulus have reason to fear politically? I am not on anyone's campaign but it would be easy to put together ads that use those who opposed the stimulus as not having any business being in office. They were wrong to oppose something that appeared to work. what would your response be?

[Wild Cobra]

Had republicans done what they promised to do in 1994, there'd be term limits and none of this would have happened. I'll never forgive them for that.
No shit. All the republicans had to do was keep their word on things.

[Wild Cobra]

So what happens when the economy does turn around? Do the people who railed against the stimulus have reason to fear politically? I am not on anyone's campaign but it would be easy to put together ads that use those who opposed the stimulus as not having any business being in office. They were wrong to oppose something that appeared to work. what would your response be?
Then we are wrong, and I'll admit it. Look at the market confidence with these bailouts. Things are getting worse, not better. Same with consumer confidence. I simply don't see it happening. Even if it happens, how much higher will the debt become as a percentage of GNP, GDP, etc? How will this affect the future?

[Obstructed_View]

So what happens when the economy does turn around? Do the people who railed against the stimulus have reason to fear politically? I am not on anyone's campaign but it would be easy to put together ads that use those who opposed the stimulus as not having any business being in office. They were wrong to oppose something that appeared to work. what would your response be?

So as long as the economy recovers eventually, those in favor of stimulus can take credit for its recovery, regardless of whether they spent literally trillions of dollars to prolong recovery by decades? Good logic. That's kind of like saying that if you beat someone half to death with a stick, you deserve a medal for saving their life when they recover simply because you didn't kill them.


Obama's already modified his promise of creating jobs into saving an equal number of jobs that otherwise "would have been lost" if not for his measures, and those that love him blindly because of their political leanings will continue to love him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Of course Wild Cobra and the republicans are as balijuana says, otherwise balijuana would have a hard time coming to grips that he is a blind fool.

And that would after all be....hard. Can't have that.



Bali and the rest of you losers talk down to conservatives/reps/whatever yet you have NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM taking their money. Let that sink in, bitches.

He specifically references a ratio to dallars take to dollars paid out and the fact that it comes from red states and that is the best you can do? Thats pretty weak bullshit man.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So as long as the economy recovers eventually, those in favor of stimulus can take credit for its recovery, regardless of whether they spent literally trillions of dollars to prolong recovery by decades? Good logic. That's kind of like saying that if you beat someone half to death with a stick, you deserve a medal for saving their life when they recover simply because you didn't kill them.


Obama's already modified his promise of creating jobs into saving an equal number of jobs that otherwise "would have been lost" if not for his measures, and those that love him blindly because of their political leanings will continue to love him.

If economic growth stabilizes in the next two years then only a partisna dickhead would deny it. If its still the same shit then it didn't work. Its really not that hard to understand.

[Obstructed_View]

If economic growth stabilizes in the next two years then only a partisna dickhead would deny it. If its still the same shit then it didn't work. Its really not that hard to understand.

:lol There's no economic growth, and suggesting that taking money from taxpayers and job creators and giving it to state governments with incentives to increase welfare roles is going to stabilize anything is a joke. If the economy recovers it's due solely to American ingenuity. Only a partisna dickhead thinks government is the answer to anything.

[micca]

That you look up to a former-KGB, current Mob Boss on how to run a democracy does not speak well of you.
You miss the point... I'm not looking to him on how to run a democracy I'm looking to him as someone who is intamitley aware of the stupidity of socialisim.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol There's no economic growth, and suggesting that taking money from taxpayers and job creators and giving it to state governments with incentives to increase welfare roles is going to stabilize anything is a joke. If the economy recovers it's due solely to American ingenuity. Only a partisna dickhead thinks government is the answer to anything.

Sorry but your all or nothing attitude is pretty stupid. Government is the solution to many things. It is the bane of others. To just make blanket statement like government solves nothing means that you are an anarchist.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You miss the point... I'm not looking to him on how to run a democracy I'm looking to him as someone who is intamitley aware of the stupidity of socialisim.

Socialism is a nice omnibus term for people with small minds. Stalinism and later Soviet regimes are one thing. Maoism and the current economic policies of China are another. Castros Cuba was termed a communist state but it was run closer to a monarchy. None of the above are Marxism etc.

using Soviet Russia as an indictment of socialism is like using Chang Kai Shek as an indictment of democracy.

[micca]

Socialism is a nice omnibus term for people with small minds. Stalinism and later Soviet regimes are one thing. Maoism and the current economic policies of China are another. Castros Cuba was termed a communist state but it was run closer to a monarchy. None of the above are Marxism etc.

using Soviet Russia as an indictment of socialism is like using Chang Kai Shek as an indictment of democracy.

The Soviet union wasn't just a bunch of pesants who dallied with socialisim, they were the authors of most of the socialist experments on the planet they had universities full of socialist scholars who were coming out with new and improved flavors of soialisim that they could export, They funded castro they funded the american communist party, the workers party,the international socialist party in the u.s. and europe, they funded and guided most of the socialist and communist political movment in Europe, they educated people from all over the third world in russian universities in socialist an communist theroy, and then sent them home to spread the wealth. The far reaching and varied influence that the soviet union had over socialist and communist thought far far exceded what you suggest.

[TDMVPDPOY]

The Soviet union wasn't just a bunch of pesants who dallied with socialisim, they were the authors of most of the socialist experments on the planet they had universities full of socialist scholars who were coming out with new and improved flavors of soialisim that they could export, They funded castro they funded the american communist party, the workers party,the international socialist party in the u.s. and europe, they funded and guided most of the socialist and communist political movment in Europe, they educated people from all over the third world in russian universities in socialist an communist theroy, and then sent them home to spread the wealth. The far reaching and varied influence that the soviet union had over socialist and communist thought far far exceded what you suggest.

but how m uch of the profits or wealth trickle down to the peasants? not much. Cause every kent frop top to middle management in govt wanted their fair share in proceeds, corruption is a bitch.

We all should go back to a cash basis or gold basis if you wanna trade.....fuck credit.

[Purple & Gold]

LOL Wild Cobra is such an idiot. California has the 8th largest economy in the world but yet Wild Cobra says fuck them let them deal with it. Like it wont affect the rest of the country :lmao

Cali has never recovered from getting fleeced by Enron and all the other energy companies. Davis was inept and Bush was in bed with them turning a blind eye to the whole situation. This is the main cause of California's woes as of right now. That the housing collapse and Arnie being an idiot and not wanting to raise taxes. Even Reagan, when Governor, wasn't dumb enough to think he couldn't raise taxes.

While Arnold has done some things that I like and has separated him from other Repubs he still falls for the classic Repub downfall of no more taxes ever. Maybe he can do a "read my lips" next time.

[Purple & Gold]

California is important to America in so far as what not to do. People outside California still see it as some El Dorado that it is not, They are blinded by it's immense wealth, but that wealth is only shared by a few.California of 30 years ago had the promise of being a great and relevant place, it was making alot of contributions to America, but not so much anymore.Today California is playground, and hunting ground for the greedy.If it was not for immigration and most importantly illegal aliens the population of the state would be going down, because of massive migrations out of the state by the middle class. It is hard to own a home, it's hard to save money, and the quality of life for people is just a political football for evil and corrupt men.California is no longer the golden state it is the gilded state.L.A. is filled with mexican and central american gangs that have turned it into a shooting gallery, blacks are being hunted and driven out of Watts and Compton by them,you may have heard of Jamil Shaw or Jamil's bill, and tons of drug money is being laundred in california by the cartels, and one of the prime bussinesses to laundry money through is southeren californian politicians.
Northeren Ca. real estate has become a roulette wheel, the hippie dippy ecolgoy bull shit is just that bull shit, Ca. does this minstral show of progressive ecology crap and yet it builds, and builds, and builds, and does nothing to curb population growth. northeren Ca. sonoma and napa counties were filled with incrediblly diverse farms,but now it's all one giant monoculture of wineries draining the salmon runs dry so rich dilitenes have a country place, and a vanity winery, where there are five star resturants on every corner, and you can enjoy a 400 dollar lunch without have to see the plebes.The State is killing the middle class and the working class, and the democrtic ideal as well , but hey if your rich and indolent it's a great place.

While Cali can be a dangerous place and there are many things here that are not right it is not nearly as bleak as you make it out to be. The race wars in Compton and Watts have been horrible and should have been dealt with years ago by the community. It is not nearly as bad in other historically "violent" places such as Inglewood and East LA where hispanics and blacks are moving into the "other" areas. Of course there is still crime and violence, but nothing like what has been going on in Watts and Compton. It's sad that these racist views have manifested itself to what they are now.

[Extra Stout]

California is not sustainable. 40 years ago it had a good model as the Science State, producing all these highly educated people and bringing in high-tech jobs. These supported a strong tax base. But those days are long gone.

The tech bubble and the real estate bubble have kept the illusion of a productive California going for 20 years. Now those are over and the reality of a state barreling towards 20 percent unemployment and financial insolvency is upon us.

Maybe San Francisco is sustainable in some way, but Los Angeles and San Diego are absolutely toast. Metro L.A. needs to lose about 15 million people like yesterday. There's no water. The Sierra is tapped out, and average snowpack keeps falling. Life depends on 90-minute commutes in a world where peak oil has passed. The pleasant Mediterranean climate is slowly being squeezed out as the desert encroaches. Hell, the entire reason San Diego bloomed into a major city to begin with was real estate, and that has gone up in flames. And oh yes, don't forget the literal flames that burn up more and more acres each year.

Then there's the structure of the state government, which is set up so it is virtually impossible to raise taxes, but very easy for citizens to pass referenda that mandate spending.

California is a way of life that is disappearing as we speak. But let's not just bash them. They are a portent of what is coming for the rest of us. The American middle-class way of life is ending, and the poverty and hopelessness we thought ourselves immune from soon will visit us as it does most of the rest of the world.

[Wild Cobra]

I simply don't believe in throwing good money after bad into the fire. Let the bad government structures die, and be replaced by new healthy ones.

[Obstructed_View]

All California has to do to solve their financial problems is drill for oil.

[TDMVPDPOY]

All California has to do to solve their financial problems is drill for oil.

drill for oil? no not worth it, at the price of around US$40 per barrel aint worth it.....

i doubt we see prices of around 100-130+ again

[Winehole23]

i doubt we see prices of around 100-130+ againNot that we can really afford it, but I think we will.

[balli]

Does Cali even have oil? Offshore? In National Parks? I haven't ever heard of Cali being referred to as a potentially worthwhile oil producer.

What Cali really needs to do is start selling weed through a state agency.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Does Cali even have oil? Offshore? In National Parks? I haven't ever heard of Cali being referred to as a potentially worthwhile oil producer.

What Cali really needs to do is start selling weed through a state agency.

offshore its coasts.....it was blocked for some reason....

[Winehole23]

using Soviet Russia as an indictment of socialism is like using Chang Kai Shek as an indictment of democracy.In fairness the indictments work.

[Winehole23]

California is not sustainable...

Maybe San Francisco is sustainable in some way, but Los Angeles and San Diego are absolutely toast. Metro L.A. needs to lose about 15 million people like yesterday. There's no water. The Sierra is tapped out, and average snowpack keeps falling. Life depends on 90-minute commutes in a world where peak oil has passed. The pleasant Mediterranean climate is slowly being squeezed out as the desert encroaches. Hell, the entire reason San Diego bloomed into a major city to begin with was real estate, and that has gone up in flames. And oh yes, don't forget the literal flames that burn up more and more acres each year.

Then there's the structure of the state government, which is set up so it is virtually impossible to raise taxes, but very easy for citizens to pass referenda that mandate spending.

California is a way of life that is disappearing as we speak. But let's not just bash them. They are a portent of what is coming for the rest of us. The American middle-class way of life is ending, and the poverty and hopelessness we thought ourselves immune from soon will visit us as it does most of the rest of the world.When John Lukacs (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/john_lukacs/index.html)said the twenty-first century would be an age of migration, I never imagined he meant our own country.

[balli]

It's like a reverse Grapes of Wrath.