Some Numbers on Duncan, Russell, Jordan, & Shaq

[Galileo]

Some Numbers on Duncan, Russell, Jordan, & Shaq

compiled by Galileo

Stats only include games the player actually played in.

Career Playoff win/loss records:

Bill Russell

107 wins, 58 losses, in 13 playoff seasons

.648

Tim Duncan

100 wins, 55 losses, in 10 playoff seasons

.645

Michael Jordan

119 wins, 60 losses, in 13 playoff seasons

.665

Shaquille O'Neal

122 wins, 81 losses, in 16 playoff seasons

.601

I have not compliled the numbers for Bird and Magic or Kareem.

However, it's safe to say that the level of continued excellence shown by Tim Duncan rates right up at the top in the annals of NBA history.

If Tim goes 7-3, he ties Bill Russell

If Tim goes 19-5, he ties Michael Jordan

If Tim goes 22-26, he ties Shaq

Regular Season Records

(includes all games, including those missed by player)

Bill Russell

716 wins, 299 losses, in 13 seasons

.705

Tim Duncan

652 wins, 272 losses, in 12 seasons (through game 54 this season)

.706

So if you are going to talk about winning, Tim Duncan wins just as much as Bill Russell.

Tim ties Bill Russell if the Spurs go 64-27 in the next 91 regular season games (doable).

Russell won more titles because during most of his career, you needed to only win two playoff series to win the title, and there were only 8 teams, so you only had to be better than 7 other teams, rather than 29 like today.

Tim Duncan is not done yet, either. Duncan is under contract with the Spurs for three more seasons after this one. The Spurs have managed the salary cap well. I expect Duncan to drop a little by 2012 to maybe a 2nd team all-NBA player, or even 3rd-team. He will still have all-star Tony Parker in his prime. Backup George Hill looks like a keeper as well. Manu will probably be on the decline soon, but I expect the Spurs to maintain their lofty pace for at least three more seasons.

Even if Duncan is averaging 15 points and 10 borads four years from now, he will still be an all-star caliber player, and I expect some young stud to jump on board to help Tim win another ring, or 2, or,....

[iilluzioN]

George Hill.

[Galileo]

George Hill.

I forgot to mention that I think Ian Mahimni will be an all-star by the year 2012.

[Joe Schmoogins]

nice research... Basically this confirms again what we all know... Tim is the man.

[Galileo]

Regular Season W/L Records (all game included)

Duncan

652-272

.706

Jordan

769-461 (15 seasons)

.625

Average wins per 82 games

Duncan

58 wins, 24 losses

Jordan

51 wins, 31 losses

For Duncan to tie Jordan, the Spurs must:

win 117
lose 189

in their next 306 games.

Easy.

Duncan > Jordan

[024]

great post. but we need hollinger to approve and certify this post before these statistics can be valid.

[Galileo]

great post. but we need hollinger to approve and certify this post before these statistics can be valid.

Hollinger says the Spurs will miss the playoffs this season.

[PM5K]

Stats can only account for so much. No question Tim Duncan is a Hall Of Fame player, but it takes more than a few numbers to make him greater than the GOAT.

[Galileo]

Stats can only account for so much. No question Tim Duncan is a Hall Of Fame player, but it takes more than a few numbers to make him greater than the GOAT.

A FEW numbers, eh? Did you not see all the numbers racked up by Duncan??

Duncan's W/L record is 100-55 in the playoffs, almost exactly the same as Russell's 107-58.

Duncan's regular season W/L record is 652-272, almost exactly the same as Russell's 716-299.

Combined total record:

Duncan; 752-327

.697

Russell; 823-357

.697

If Russell is the greatest winner in sports history, then so is Tim Duncan. They both won at exctly the same rate.

Then factor this in:

Russell played against inferior competition. When Russell played, it was before the post WWII baby-boomers came on board, before blacks were fully integrated into the NBA, and before there were any international players.

The fact is, 6'9" centers don't much exist anymore.

Here's another factor.

In Tim Duncan's career, he has never had a 1st-team, all-NBA teammate, and only once did he have a 2nd-team teammate (DRob in 1998).

Russell had many all-NBA teammates:

1957

Bob Cousy, 1st-team
Bill Sharman, 1st-team

1958

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1959

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1960

Cousy, 1st-team
Sharman, 2nd-team

1961

Cousy, 1st-team
Tom Heinsohn, 2nd-team

1962

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1963

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1964

Heinsohn & John Havlicek, both 2nd-team

1965

Sam Jones, 2nd-team

1966

Havlicek & Jones, both 2nd-team

1967

Jones, 2nd-team

1968

Havlicek, 2nd-team

1969

Havlicek, 2nd team

TOTALS

Duncan

one all-NBA teammate
one season 2nd-team

Russell

Had an all-NBA teammate every year of his career.

Five different all-NBA teammates

Eight first-team teammate seasons

14 2nd-team teammate seasons

Duncan > Russell

[raspsa]

It depends on how you define "winner".. the ultimate definition is number of championships, something that all those great individual winners would probably agree upon. That's why I have a hard time putting malone, Stockton, Barkley and non-other champions in the same category as Russell, Jordan, Duncan, etc..

[baseline bum]

Stats can only account for so much. No question Tim Duncan is a Hall Of Fame player, but it takes more than a few numbers to make him greater than the GOAT.

Duncan < GOAT = Jordan
Duncan > Russell

[TDMVPDPOY]

GEORGE HILL > players mention in this thread

[Thomas82]

A FEW numbers, eh? Did you not see all the numbers racked up by Duncan??

Duncan's W/L record is 100-55 in the playoffs, almost exactly the same as Russell's 107-58.

Duncan's regular season W/L record is 652-272, almost exactly the same as Russell's 716-299.

Combined total record:

Duncan; 752-327

.697

Russell; 823-357

.697

If Russell is the greatest winner in sports history, then so is Tim Duncan. They both won at exctly the same rate.

Then factor this in:

Russell played against inferior competition. When Russell played, it was before the post WWII baby-boomers came on board, before blacks were fully integrated into the NBA, and before there were any international players.

The fact is, 6'9" centers don't much exist anymore.

Here's another factor.

In Tim Duncan's career, he has never had a 1st-team, all-NBA teammate, and only once did he have a 2nd-team teammate (DRob in 1998).

Russell had many all-NBA teammates:

1957

Bob Cousy, 1st-team
Bill Sharman, 1st-team

1958

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1959

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1960

Cousy, 1st-team
Sharman, 2nd-team

1961

Cousy, 1st-team
Tom Heinsohn, 2nd-team

1962

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1963

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1964

Heinsohn & John Havlicek, both 2nd-team

1965

Sam Jones, 2nd-team

1966

Havlicek & Jones, both 2nd-team

1967

Jones, 2nd-team

1968

Havlicek, 2nd-team

1969

Havlicek, 2nd team

TOTALS

Duncan

one all-NBA teammate
one season 2nd-team

Russell

Had an all-NBA teammate every year of his career.

Five different all-NBA teammates

Eight first-team teammate seasons

14 2nd-team teammate seasons

Duncan > Russell


Good post!!

[Gutter92]

Using the argument "there were 8 teams he had to beat" is a 2-sided sword...that also means that good players were on every team, like there were no Udokas on most teams :P

[Manufan909]

Less competition, new league. An 8 team NBA TODAY would have great players on all of them, but there wasn't such an extraordinary amount of talent back then.

[Thomas82]

Less competition, new league. An 8 team NBA TODAY would have great players on all of them, but there wasn't such an extraordinary amount of talent back then.

That's the truth.

[Baseline]

Great stuff, Galileo. Thanks for compiling all of this.

Thanks also for not including the collossally overrated Mr. Bryant in this analysis. He can't hold hold a candle to any of these NBA legends.

Tim Duncan is in the conversation for best big man of all time because of the very point you bring up -- he hasn't had top tier talent with him the whole way through. He now has an all-star point guard, but man, Parker may never make all-NBA first team unless he gets a real jump shot. And Manu can't stay healthy long enough to. We all know that Big Dave was fading by the time Tim got here, so in my opinion, Duncan has done more carrying on his four titles than most all-time greats. Guys like Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird had WAY more help than Duncan.

[Thomas82]

Great stuff, Galileo. Thanks for compiling all of this.

Thanks also for not including the collossally overrated Mr. Bryant in this analysis. He can't hold hold a candle to any of these NBA legends.

Tim Duncan is in the conversation for best big man of all time because of the very point you bring up -- he hasn't had top tier talent with him the whole way through. He now has an all-star point guard, but man, Parker may never make all-NBA first team unless he gets a real jump shot. And Manu can't stay healthy long enough to. We all know that Big Dave was fading by the time Tim got here, so in my opinion, Duncan has done more carrying on his four titles than most all-time greats. Guys like Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird had WAY more help than Duncan.

Another good post!!!

[baseline bum]

I'd take Bryant over Russell in a heartbeat. No well in hell over any of the other three though.

[polandprzem]

A FEW numbers, eh? Did you not see all the numbers racked up by Duncan??

Duncan's W/L record is 100-55 in the playoffs, almost exactly the same as Russell's 107-58.

Duncan's regular season W/L record is 652-272, almost exactly the same as Russell's 716-299.

Combined total record:

Duncan; 752-327

.697

Russell; 823-357

.697

If Russell is the greatest winner in sports history, then so is Tim Duncan. They both won at exctly the same rate.

Then factor this in:

Russell played against inferior competition. When Russell played, it was before the post WWII baby-boomers came on board, before blacks were fully integrated into the NBA, and before there were any international players.

The fact is, 6'9" centers don't much exist anymore.

Here's another factor.

In Tim Duncan's career, he has never had a 1st-team, all-NBA teammate, and only once did he have a 2nd-team teammate (DRob in 1998).

Russell had many all-NBA teammates:

1957

Bob Cousy, 1st-team
Bill Sharman, 1st-team

1958

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1959

Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team

1960

Cousy, 1st-team
Sharman, 2nd-team

1961

Cousy, 1st-team
Tom Heinsohn, 2nd-team

1962

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1963

Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team

1964

Heinsohn & John Havlicek, both 2nd-team

1965

Sam Jones, 2nd-team

1966

Havlicek & Jones, both 2nd-team

1967

Jones, 2nd-team

1968

Havlicek, 2nd-team

1969

Havlicek, 2nd team

TOTALS

Duncan

one all-NBA teammate
one season 2nd-team

Russell

Had an all-NBA teammate every year of his career.

Five different all-NBA teammates

Eight first-team teammate seasons

14 2nd-team teammate seasons

Duncan > Russell

You had less players in the NBA then

[Galileo]

You had less players in the NBA then

True, but my point stands. Russell had WAY more help, no matter how you slice it.

Russell had 4 of the NBA's top 50 players all-time for teammates.

Bob Cousy for 7 seasons (all of them as an all-star)

Sam Jones for 12 seasons (5 as all-star)

John Havlicek for 7 seasons (4 as all-star) [He would have won more honors, had he not come off the bench, like Ginobili]

Bill Sharman for 5 seasons (4 as all-star)

NBA 50 Greatest Players
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/nba_50_greatest.html

Cousy won the MVP in 1957, Russell's rookie season.

Havlicek went on, after Russell retired to lead the Celtics to NBA titles in his old age in '74 and '76.

Sharman I would argue is overrated, shouldn't be a top 50 player.

Sam Jones was either the 3rd or 4th best guard of the 1960s (behind Oscar & West, tied with Hal Greer), and played his entire prime with Russell.

In 1957, the Celts also had the rookie of the year, hall-of-famer Tom Heinsohn (not Russell, because he missed much of the season in the Olympics). Heinsohn was still making the all-NBA team in 1964, and the all-star team in '65. He played his entire career with Russell. In 1960, Heinsohn had a 20-10 season. (pts/reb)

Heinsohn made 6 all-star teams with Russell.

Another hall-of-fame player (although overrated) was Frank Ramsey, who played with Russell from '57 through '64.

Russell had still another hall-of-famer from '67 to '69, Bailey Howell. Howell made the all-star team in 1967.

Duncan has 3 hall-of-fame teammates, as Parker and Ginobili will both eventually get in, along with DRob. Bowen might as well, you never know. So might Horry or even Finley has a shot, because of all the rings.

[raspsa]

I wish I had a time machine and could transport TD back to Russell's era or vice-versa. No doubt TD with his sound fundamentals would have been a dominant player. On the other hand, Russell could run and jump like a gazelle and would fit right into today's fast-paced, small-ball game..

[Galileo]

Oh, I forgot, Russell had even one more hall-of-fame teammate, K.C. Jones. Jones played his entire career, '59 to '67, with Russell.

So Russell for teammates had:

1 MVP player
5 all-NBA team players
4 top 50 players
8 hall-of-famers
6 all-star players

[Galileo]

Oh, I forgot, Russell had even one more hall-of-fame teammate, K.C. Jones. Jones played his entire career, '59 to '67, with Russell.

So Russell for teammates had:

1 MVP player
5 all-NBA team players
4 top 50 players
8 hall-of-famers
6 all-star players

oops, I found two more hall-of-fame players who played with Russell; Andy Phillip and Clyde Lovellette.

Phillip finished up his career in '57 and '58, and Lovellette finished up his career in '63 and '64, both with Boston.

Phillip had been an all-star as recently as 1955, while Lovellette was an all-star in 1961, and scored over 20 pts/game in 1962. Both had their minutes drop quite a bit with their new teams, but they still were good players.

That makes 10 hall-of-famers who played with Russell.

[polandprzem]

Well that all ofcourse doesn'r change the fact that Russell was he reason Celtics were dynasty.
He was the one who got them winning.

btw. all those all-stars and HOF's credited from being in the winning team which ofcouse not making them worse then they were.

[lefty]

Interesting :tu

[stretch]

Duncan > Russell

Yes.



Duncan > Jordan

No.

[Galileo]

Well that all ofcourse doesn'r change the fact that Russell was he reason Celtics were dynasty.
He was the one who got them winning.

btw. all those all-stars and HOF's credited from being in the winning team which ofcouse not making them worse then they were.

we have gone full circle. Duncan wins at the same rate as Bill Russell.

[Galileo]

Yes.



No.

Russell > Jordan?

[Galileo]

Yes.



No.

Bulls '93

57 wins, 25 losses, MJ 3rd in MVP vote

Bulls '94, no MJ

55 wins, 27 losses, Pippen 3rd in MVP vote

MJ = 2 wins

[stretch]

Bulls '93

57 wins, 25 losses, MJ 3rd in MVP vote

Bulls '94, no MJ

55 wins, 27 losses, Pippen 3rd in MVP vote

MJ = 2 wins

Bulls without Jordan = 0 rings

Bulls with Jordan = 6 rings

6 Rings > 4 Rings

Jordan > Duncan

Fail.

[stretch]

Russell > Jordan?

Hell fucking no.

Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Wilt > Russell

[Galileo]

Bulls without Jordan = 0 rings

Bulls with Jordan = 6 rings

6 Rings > 4 Rings

Jordan > Duncan

Fail.

Celtics with Russell = 11 rings (would have been 12, but Russell got injured in the '58 finals)

11 rings > 6 rings

2 NCAA championships > 1

13 total championships > 7

58 wins per 82 games > 51 wins per 82 games

Big Men > Little Men

Russell > Jordan

Fail.

[Galileo]

Hell fucking no.

Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Wilt > Russell

If Jordan was so great, why Sam Bowie drafted before him?

[Thomas82]

If Jordan was so great, why Sam Bowie drafted before him?

I know, right? Let's not forget that Michael Jordan never had a winning record in his 5 years without Scottie Pippen, and a 1-9 playoff record.

[smrattler]

I like it!

All of it!

All the god stuff anyway!

[Thomas82]

If Jordan was so great, why Sam Bowie drafted before him?

What's up with Portland and their big man jinx? First Bill Walton, then Sam Bowie, and now Greg Oden.