Hollinger: Parker's Big Night Just Another Example Of How Much The Mavs Miss Terry

[duncan228]

Has this been posted? Forgive me if I missed it. :)

PER Diem: Feb. 25, 2009 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090225)
Parker's big night just another example of how much the Mavericks miss Terry
By John Hollinger

Tony Parker 66, Dallas 54.

It's amazing but true -- while he was on the floor, one player accounted for more points than the entire opposing team.

Parker did it last night in San Antonio's 93-76 win over Dallas. He had 37 points and 12 assists, plus five of his dimes accounted for 3-pointers -- a total of 66 points. Meanwhile, in the 37 minutes that Parker played, the Mavericks scored only 54 of their 76 total points.

So Parker not only generated more points than the Mavs … he did so by double digits. It was one of the most amazing performances of the season, made even more incredible by the absence of teammates Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili -- Parker was a one-man band and the Mavs still couldn't stop it. He scored or assisted on all but 13 of San Antonio's points when he was on the court to lead the Spurs to a shockingly easy win.

Of course, every coin has two sides. As incredible as Parker was, his performance was also illustrative of some problems on the other end, and in particular Dallas' struggles in the absence of Jason Terry.

Here's the thing about measuring player performance in basketball: results are always partly dependent on the other players on the floor. This is true for any statistical measure, but it's especially true when we start measuring on-court vs. off-court performance.

Tuesday night's game offered a great example. Dallas's point guard, Jason Kidd, has one of the best on-court vs. off-court plus-minus differentials in the league. (OK, that was a mouthful. What it means is that Dallas scores more points than it surrenders with Kidd on the court than when he's off it.)

However, part of the reason for his unusually strong numbers in this respect is that the Mavs have had other players to cover his weaknesses. In particular, Terry does two things Kidd can't: reliably make open jumpers to keep defenses from cheating on Dirk Nowitzki, and defend opposing point guards who are too quick for Kidd.

Alas, Terry is out with a broken hand. And last night, we saw a good example of what happens with his subtraction. Kidd had the worst plus-minus mark of any Mav, at minus-19, while the absence of Terry allowed the Spurs to suffocate Nowitzki with multiple defenders and permit the likes of James Singleton and Antoine Wright to fire away from distance.

But where Terry's absence was felt most was at the defensive end. Like I said, Kidd struggles against quick point guards -- and Parker is about the quickest point guard in the league.

That continues a trend that's been apparent since Terry went out. Since losing him early in the Chicago game, Dallas has played five games against quick point guards and two games against a team with no point guard (Sacramento); in the two Sacramento games he had the same huge plus-minus he's had all season, but in the others it wasn't pretty: Kidd was a minus-nine in an OT win over Chicago (facing off against Derrick Rose), minus-nine in a home loss to Boston (Rajon Rondo), plus-21 in a 15-point win over New Jersey (Devin Harris), minus-11 in a loss to Houston (Aaron Brooks), and minus-19 against Parker last night. That's minus-27 in five games in which the Mavs as a whole were minus-15.

While this hardly constitutes damning evidence -- game-to-game plus-minus data is extremely variable and thus requires large samples to reach scientifically valid conclusions -- I believe in this case the numbers on Kidd underscore a larger point.

He's been able to register such gaudy plus-minus numbers precisely because the Mavs had the personnel in place to offset his two greatest weaknesses. (This was symbiotic, by the way; Kidd also offsets Terry's greatest weaknesses with his court vision and ability to defend bigger players). Minus his key enabler, however things have quickly gone to pot.

That said, I don't expect opposing point guards to outscore the entire Dallas team on a nightly basis. What Parker did last night was singular and incredible, and worthy of praise regardless of the opponent. But Terry's absence does lay bare a major vulnerability for Dallas, and if he doesn't return soon I suspect it will cost the Mavs a playoff spot.

[sribb43]

Has this been posted? Forgive me if I missed it. :)

PER Diem: Feb. 25, 2009 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090225)
However, part of the reason for his unusually strong numbers in this respect is that the Mavs have had other players to cover his weaknesses. In particular, Terry does two things Kidd can't: reliably make open jumpers to keep defenses from cheating on Dirk Nowitzki, and defend opposing point guards who are too quick for Kidd.
.

WTF..since when can Terry guard quick PG's...Hollinger is a moron:lol

[Ghazi]

Terry did a good job on CP3 in games 3 and 4 last year.

Terry gives a better shot against quick PG's than Kidd, but our perimeter defense is atrocious regardless.

[MarHill]

I've always thought that Terry was the most dangerous offensive player on the Mavs. When JT and Dirk plays that two-man game.....they are a tough cover and without him last night it made Dirk easier to defend by the Spurs.

[sook]

Its not that much about terry being good, its the mavs playing like crap lately and TP being a beast as usual.

[Shank]

Should the Mavs have traded Devin for Kidd? Has anyone ever chimed in on this?

[Ghazi]

Its not that much about terry being good, its the mavs playing like crap lately and TP being a beast as usual.

Could it be that the Mavs are playing poorly due to Terry's absence? :rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Parker's big night just another example of how much the Mavericks miss Harris


fixed.

[Shank]

Devin Harris once played for the Mavericks?

When do we start piling on the Suns for giving up Rajon Rondo?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Devin Harris once played for the Mavericks?

When do we start piling on the Suns for giving up Rajon Rondo?

I never said giving up Rondo wasn't retarded.....plenty of Mavs fans on this site claim the Kidd trade was smart.

[dirk4mvp]

I never said giving up Rondo wasn't retarded.....plenty of Mavs fans on this site claim the Kidd trade was smart.


Can you find some quotes from any Mavs fan besides Ghazi where they said that was straight up smart?

[Ghazi]

Can you find some quotes from any Mavs fan besides Ghazi where they said that was straight up smart?

When did I say it was straight up smart? I just said it was lateral on the basketball court.

[dirk4mvp]

When did I say it was straight up smart? I just said it was lateral on the basketball court.

Alright well this makes my argument look better then?

Can Duncan'sdickownsmyMouth find any quotes?

[mavs>spurs2]

Can you find some quotes from any Mavs fan besides Ghazi where they said that was straight up smart?

:lol They don't straight up say it was smart, but there are some Mav fans who try to use "doublespeak" and try to somehow sort of justify it in a twisted way.

[Shank]

Aaaaaaaaand we have another one of "those" threads. Awesome.

[Brazil]

Has this been posted? Forgive me if I missed it. :)

PER Diem: Feb. 25, 2009 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090225)
Parker's big night just another example of how much the Mavericks miss Terry
By John Hollinger

Tony Parker 66, Dallas 54.

It's amazing but true -- while he was on the floor, one player accounted for more points than the entire opposing team.

Parker did it last night in San Antonio's 93-76 win over Dallas. He had 37 points and 12 assists, plus five of his dimes accounted for 3-pointers -- a total of 66 points. Meanwhile, in the 37 minutes that Parker played, the Mavericks scored only 54 of their 76 total points.

So Parker not only generated more points than the Mavs … he did so by double digits. It was one of the most amazing performances of the season, made even more incredible by the absence of teammates Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili -- Parker was a one-man band and the Mavs still couldn't stop it. He scored or assisted on all but 13 of San Antonio's points when he was on the court to lead the Spurs to a shockingly easy win.



:wow I didn't realize that !

[sook]

Could it be that the Mavs are playing poorly due to Terry's absence? :rolleyes

nope, becuase they were a 7th seed then, and an 8 seed now. They suck more at this point but it isn't relevent. Dirk is in a slump atm , when he gets out of it they will play a lot better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Can you find some quotes from any Mavs fan besides Ghazi where they said that was straight up smart?

Maybe you didn't say it was smart, but I remember you saying something about the fact the Kidd trade is the only reason Terry and Dirk were having the year they were having, you said this around December and January I believe.

What I'm saying is there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that the Kidd trade hurt Dallas overall, just like the Rondo trade for the Suns.

[Shank]

...and part of that also has to do with Josh Howard just basically out there fucking around for 30+ minutes a game. Even Skip Prosser couldn't bare to stick around to watch what he's become.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lol They don't straight up say it was smart, but there are some Mav fans who try to use "doublespeak" and try to somehow sort of justify it in a twisted way.

exactly.

[monosylab1k]

I loved the trade when it happened, and while I don't still love it now, I'm okay with it. Losing the draft picks is what bothers me more than losing Devin for Kidd. Kidd is far from the problem, and while we lost speed & athleticism, we gained a ton in terms of smarts and toughness. Maybe not an even trade, but our play at PG has at least been more consistent with Kidd.

You have to have some seriously low basketball IQ to think that Devin Harris could do what he's doing in New Jersey right now in Dallas. That would mean severely limiting the amount of touches for Dirk, JET, and the rest in order to have The Devin Harris Show, which has proven to still not be a playoff contender in a still weak Eastern Conference.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I loved the trade when it happened, and while I don't still love it now, I'm okay with it. Losing the draft picks is what bothers me more than losing Devin for Kidd. Kidd is far from the problem, and while we lost speed & athleticism, we gained a ton in terms of smarts and toughness. Maybe not an even trade, but our play at PG has at least been more consistent with Kidd.

You have to have some seriously low basketball IQ to think that Devin Harris could do what he's doing in New Jersey right now in Dallas. That would mean severely limiting the amount of touches for Dirk, JET, and the rest in order to have The Devin Harris Show, which has proven to still not be a playoff contender in a still weak Eastern Conference.


This post made me realize why there's so much hostility towards someone saying they were dumb to trade Harris.

As far as THIS season goes, Kidd helps them more than Harris, sorry if I was unclear about that. By no means do I think Dallas would be a contender if they had Harris instead of Kidd. The Kidd trade did have a positive immediate effect that we're still seeing this season.

Of course Harris wouldn't be putting up these numbers on Dallas, that's a given, sorry if I ever said otherwise.

The reason why I view the Harris trade as dumb is because it didn't address their most pressing need and although it improved them, it gave them new problems and it didn't do enough to make them a contender, similar to what the Shaq trade did with the Suns.

So basically, what I'm saying is, Dallas was not a good enough team at the time to be sacrificing the future for the present.

[Ghazi]

I remember someone mentioning if George didn't do that veto shit KVH's contract could've been used on Mike Miller. Is there any truth to that? Or just speculation.

If so, fuck Devean George.

[Findog]

I never said giving up Rondo wasn't retarded.....plenty of Mavs fans on this site claim the Kidd trade was smart.

The Kidd trade was a mistake, in fact a substantial one. It is held up on this board as an all-time blunder, however, and it is most certainly not.

[Ghazi]

It's not even the worst move the Mavs FO has made in the last year IMO. I'll take the Kidd trade over blowing the MLE on Diop.

[baseline bum]

If so, :toast to Devean George.

[monosylab1k]

I remember someone mentioning if George didn't do that veto shit KVH's contract could've been used on Mike Miller. Is there any truth to that? Or just speculation.

If so, fuck Devean George.

Well, that was when the assumption was still out there that, like with Gasol, the Grizzlies were going to give their players away for free. After we all realized the bullshit collusion it took to get Gasol in LA, it was no surprise that Memphis suddenly wanted all sorts of shit for Mike Miller.

[LockBeard]

Parker's Big Night Just Another Example Of How Much The Blazers missing Oden

[Pelicans78]

When did I say it was straight up smart? I just said it was lateral on the basketball court.

It's not lateral. Harris is better than Kidd overall, especially on defense. Plus, you gave up draft picks. so no, it's not lateral.

[Trainwreck2100]

hollinger is such a prick

[monosylab1k]

Harris is better than Kidd overall, especially on defense.

Have you ever actually watched Devin Harris play defense? Considering the way Chris Paul curbstomps him every time they match up, I'm shocked you'd say Harris is "especially" better at defense than Kidd.

Harris doesn't play defense so much as he goes for charges and flops his ass off. I'd say Harris plays Tony Parker & Rajon Rondo much better than Kidd, but Harris' Charmin-soft defense against Baron Davis & Dwyane Wade fucked over the Mavs big time. I'd even go so far as to say that if you replace Devin Harris with Jason Kidd in the 07 playoffs, the Mavs beat the Warriors in 5. I'll take Kidd's savvy play on D over Harris' fishing for calls any day.

Are Devin's feet quicker than Kidd's? Absolutely. Overall is he better at defense? Hell fucking no.

[Pelicans78]

Have you ever actually watched Devin Harris play defense? Considering the way Chris Paul curbstomps him every time they match up, I'm shocked you'd say Harris is "especially" better at defense than Kidd.

Harris doesn't play defense so much as he goes for charges and flops his ass off. I'd say Harris plays Tony Parker & Rajon Rondo much better than Kidd, but Harris' Charmin-soft defense against Baron Davis & Dwyane Wade fucked over the Mavs big time. I'd even go so far as to say that if you replace Devin Harris with Jason Kidd in the 07 playoffs, the Mavs beat the Warriors in 5. I'll take Kidd's savvy play on D over Harris' fishing for calls any day.

Are Devin's feet quicker than Kidd's? Absolutely. Overall is he better at defense? Hell fucking no.

Kidd is terrible defensively at this point in his career. There's a reason why the Mavs put Terry on CP3 in the playoffs. Kidd was getting abused. Plus, Harris gives u more offense. It's not a lateral trade, especially with all the pieces the Mavs gave up.

[monosylab1k]

Kidd is terrible defensively at this point in his career.

I doubt you watch enough Mavs games to not be completely ignorant here.

Kidd is too slow to keep up with quicker guards like Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, etc. But he's absolutely a better defensive player than Devin Harris. He plays team defense, he plays passing lanes, he's almost never out of place, and he plays tough.

Devin Harris, while being able to keep up with quicker guards, also gets sodomized by stronger guards (Baron Davis and Dwyane Wade being the most obvious examples), and he basically doesn't play defense so much as he just flops and fishes for charging calls.

[lurker]

Devin with 42 points tonight, 19 in the 4th quarter. Must be nice having a player that can score in the 4th. :(

Get well soon, Jet.

[Ghazi]

The defense statistically improved after the Kidd trade last year.

Kidd isn't great on the ball against PG's, as the Mavs are 29th in league at opposing PG PER (Nets are 26th though), although that is a vague stat.

Also, I consider defensive rebounding a "defensive stat", and he does have the highest rate among guards in that department.

I find it absurd though, Bill Simmons at the beginning of the year said Kidd's defense has declined to "Nash like" proportions. I have no idea what the hell he's watching when he said that. Kidd is no longer an All-NBA defender but I'll consider him an above average defender.

And he's versatile. Allows for cross matching while Terry is on the court. Good against bigger 2/3's, and he piles up dem steals baby.

This year, the entire team doesn't feel like playing defense, so I won't pinpoint anyone in specific about our defensive decline, it's the entire team's fault, or lack of defensive talent.

[monosylab1k]

I find it absurd though, Bill Simmons at the beginning of the year said Kidd's defense has declined to "Nash like" proportions. I have no idea what the hell he's watching when he said that.

Bill Simmons is a fucking moron when it comes to anything basketball related. Remember, he's the guy who called the 06-07 Phoenix Suns "historically good" and placed them in the same league as the 80's Lakers & Celtics.

[BUMP]

Have you ever actually watched Devin Harris play defense? Considering the way Chris Paul curbstomps him every time they match up, I'm shocked you'd say Harris is "especially" better at defense than Kidd.

Harris doesn't play defense so much as he goes for charges and flops his ass off. I'd say Harris plays Tony Parker & Rajon Rondo much better than Kidd, but Harris' Charmin-soft defense against Baron Davis & Dwyane Wade fucked over the Mavs big time. I'd even go so far as to say that if you replace Devin Harris with Jason Kidd in the 07 playoffs, the Mavs beat the Warriors in 5. I'll take Kidd's savvy play on D over Harris' fishing for calls any day.

Are Devin's feet quicker than Kidd's? Absolutely. Overall is he better at defense? Hell fucking no.

idk about that. Baron wouldve just deferred to his spinning fadeaway three pointer that he would bank in from half court with his eyes closed or something

[Ghazi]

I dunno why people poke fun at the Mavs when Devin Harris puts up bullshit stats in New Jersey. Seriously, big muthafuckin deal. The way some people make it out the Mavs traded away a dynasty and 2-3 championships.

As if this incarnation of Mavs was destined for great things with a core that just 2 years ago had an embarrassing 1st round defeat? I doubt it. again, the decline began before the Kidd trade. 67-15 in 06-07, 35-18 at ASB in 07-08. Mavs were NOT playing at an elite level before Kidd came aboard. The defense had regressed, and Dirk was in a funk. Avery was being a dumbass with the rotations, and the roster was not as talented or deep as it was during the Finals run.

So yeah... not saying it was a good trade, but it wasn't horrible. I don't lose much sleep over it. I lose sleep over the BS whistles of the Finals and the fluke ass halfcourt shots of the Warriors series, but not of the Kidd trade.

It's just bad timing for Kidd. He came to the Mavs at a time they were declining regardless, and thus gets blamed for the decline.

It's not just Kidd v Harris, it's Dirk going from MVP level play to a very good player, J-Ho from a borderline All Star to a piece of shit, Stackhouse losing his legs, the bench losing talent. People never talk about these factors.

Now someone said that Kidd plays good against the bad teams and bad against the good teams (not in this thread). Actually, that's true for every single Maverick, which is why we're 7-17 against the top 3 in East + other 8 Western playoff contenders.

You can argue we'd be better with Harris now than with Kidd, but you'd have a tough time arguing we'd be elite and on the level of the Cavs/Celtics/Lakers, and I'll even throw in the Magic/Spurs.

And it seems like the league got better, I'd take the Cavs/Lakers/Celtics over our '05-'06 team in a 7 game series.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bill Simmons is a fucking moron when it comes to anything basketball related. Remember, he's the guy who called the 06-07 Phoenix Suns "historically good" and placed them in the same league as the 80's Lakers & Celtics.

I still remember that article, where it said I'd be telling my grandkids I watched the 2007 Suns.

[Shank]

Kidd is terrible defensively at this point in his career. There's a reason why the Mavs put Terry on CP3 in the playoffs. Kidd was getting abused. Plus, Harris gives u more offense. It's not a lateral trade, especially with all the pieces the Mavs gave up.

Seriously. Mix in a game once in a while.

[Cry Havoc]

I still remember that article, where it said I'd be telling my grandkids I watched the 2007 Suns.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070117

Some "gems" from that article:


You could be bouncing your grandkids on your lap someday and telling them that you watched the 2007 Suns.


With two reasonable breaks (Nash making the 3-pointer, Nowitzki missing the jumper), the Suns could be working on a 28-game winning streak right now.


Barbosa: He'd be the best guard on more than half the teams in the league right now ...


Phoenix's top six players surpass anything we've seen since Magic-Kareem-Worthy-Cooper-Scott-Thompson/Green or Bird-Parish-McHale-Johnson-Ainge-Walton. Just look at these guys. It's insane.


I think [Diaw] is one of the best 45-50 players in the league ...


Stoudemire: I'd say he's about 87 percent back, which makes him the second-best center alive


That's the biggest difference between the 2006 Suns and the 2007 Suns, with Nash's haircut symbolizing everything


If the Suns stay healthy, they should win 67-70 games and nobody should touch them in the playoffs except for Dallas


Still, I can't imagine the Suns blowing a seven-game series -- not with their style of play (impossible to stop)

:lmao

[sribb43]

my how times have changed

[ambchang]

It is just monumentally stupid to compare Parker's point "contribution" with the Mavs point total. It's comparing apples and oranges. While Parker's point contribution included both points and assists, including assists that resulted in 3 pters, the Mavs production only included points.

But this is Hollinger, the math is once again wrong.