Eric "Coward" Holder

[LockBeard]

LOL at using Mexico's drug cartels as an excuse to ban "assault weapons". Just come out and say you want to take American's guns away.

[Winehole23]

LOL at using Mexico's drug cartels as an excuse to ban "assault weapons". Just come out and say you want to take American's guns away.Link, please?

[LockBeard]

He said it today in some press conference. I don't see it up on youtube yet.

[Winehole23]

He said it today in some press conference. I don't see it up on youtube yet.Saw it on TV or overheard it on the radio.

Lazy! Don't you use the google?

[Winehole23]

Some weapons smuggling seems to be involved. Is that what caused your spidey-sense to tingle?



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26raids.html?ref=us

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/function/0,,12215_cid_4056811,00.html?maca=en-en_nr-1893-xml-atomom

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE51O6ZP20090225

[LockBeard]

I have seen multiple reports of what the cartel's are using down there. I seriously doubt half of that shit comes from gun shows and are then smuggled down to Mexico like the anti-gun anti-americans like to rant about.

[LockBeard]

Saw it on TV or overheard it on the radio.

Lazy! Don't you use the google?


I

just

saw

him

say

it

on

Television

at


a

press

conference


today.

[Winehole23]

I

just

saw

him

say

it

on

Television

at


a

press

conference


today.I



already



posted



links



to



the



story



upstream.



Thanks



anyway.



WH23

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I haven't seen a link online yet, but also saw his comments broadcasted this evening on the news.

I would just like for him to point me in the right direction of the gun shows he says are being used for strawman purchases, particularly given I know of no such gun shows where one can easily pick up automatic weapons and grenade launchers, as he noted during his speech today.

What a fucking douche.

[Winehole23]

I have seen multiple reports of what the cartel's are using down there. I seriously doubt half of that shit comes from gun shows and are then smuggled down to Mexico like the anti-gun anti-americans like to rant about.Seriously, how would you know AHF? Do you have any outside support for this hunch?




LockBeard relies on Eric Holder to identify strawman buyers for him! :lol --


I would just like for him to point me in the right direction of the gun shows he says are being used for strawman purchases, particularly given I know of no such gun shows where one can easily pick up automatic weapons and grenade launchers, as he noted during his speech today.

[jman3000]

maybe if american's didnt buy so much fucking blow and create such high demand for that shit the mexican's wouldnt be fighting over the drug trade.

[jman3000]

it's not black and white. mexican's have shitty and corrupt politicians/police... at the same time americans have an insatiable appetite for hard drugs. it just creates this fucked up monster of a world.

[jman3000]

it's straight up capitalism what they're doing. who can blame them? if you were fighting over billions and billions of dollars wouldnt you be willing to cap some fuckers?

[Winehole23]

it's straight up capitalism what they're doing. who can blame them? if you were fighting over billions and billions of dollars wouldnt you be willing to cap some fuckers?Wreck their business model and create a new revenue stream. Legalize. Sell drugs to Americans and tax it. It's easier than picking money up off the floor.

[jman3000]

Wreck their business model and create a new revenue stream. Legalize. Sell drugs to Americans and tax it. It's easier than picking money up off the floor.

bam

[jman3000]

except for the legalize all drugs.... hard drugs are too dangerous to legalize. Marijuana I'm fine with... I've never used it but i dont see the need for it to be criminalized. cocaine and heroine are different stories.. they are dangerously addictive.

even alcohol is iffy... if is wasnt such a huge industry id say make it illegal too (as im sitting here buzzing)... it's just it's become such an integral part of society that would never happen.

[LockBeard]

Listen. Mexico is fucked up. We all get that.

The point of this thread was to point out this coward Eric Holder with his 12 yr old mustache is going to re-institute the assault weapons ban. This mexico thing is merely a smoke and mirrors excuse to get momentum behind it.

http://crazyabouttv.com/Images/sistersister.jpg

[Winehole23]

The point of this thread was to point out this coward Eric Holder with his 12 yr old mustache is going to re-institute the assault weapons ban. Classic. Also sigworthy.


This mexico thing is merely a smoke and mirrors excuse to get momentum behind it. The Sinaloa drug cartel is smoke and mirrors, or just our operation against it? 750 arrests does not sound like a an insignificant haul to me.

[Winehole23]

The authorities said they seized $59.1 million in cash, more than 13 tons of cocaine, 8 tons of marijuana, more than a half-ton of methamphetamine and lesser amounts of other illicit drugs. Agents confiscated 149 vehicles, 3 aircraft, 3 vessels and 169 weapons, the officials said.

[LockBeard]

Classic. Also sigworthy.

The Sinaloa drug cartel is smoke and mirrors, or just our operation against it? 750 arrests does not sound like a an insignificant haul to me.

The drug cartels in Mexico and already in the United States are no joke.

The government using the drug cartel's weapons supplies and linking it to Americans being able to purchase "assault weapons", so they can have an excuse to push the ban.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

[Winehole23]

Are the two unrelated?Thanks for the clarification, boutons.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Seriously, how would you know AHF? Do you have any outside support for this hunch?


Look, I'm sorry you're so clueless on this one.

They are reporting about automatic machine guns and grenade launchers being found in Mexico. You can't go down to the Live Oak Gun Show and buy that stuff, you have to be either A) the U.S. military or B) have the appropriate license to buy it, which requires everything short of a cavity search from the BATF.

If they're really getting these weapons from the U.S., it's either being stolen from military facilities (doubtful) or someone with the appropriate firearms class licenses is doing straw man purchases, but that should be easy for the FBI to track down.

Bottom line, they're full of crap and using the Mexican gun violence situation as an excuse to go after legal weapons in this country.

[Winehole23]

Look, I'm sorry you're so clueless on this one...

...Bottom line, they're full of crap and using the Mexican gun violence situation as an excuse to go after legal weapons in this country.I don't know anything about the guns. Do you have a gun-related link for us?

[MannyIsGod]

Have the proposed any legislation yet or was he simply stating an opinion. I know there are several anti gun members of the administration, but I know there is also a good amount of representation for the opposite as well.

Gun shows have always been iffy for me and assault weapons are also something I feel go beyond the right to bear arms but there is no way in hell I'd support any big anti gun measures.

[Blake]

LOL at using Mexico's drug cartels as an excuse to ban "assault weapons". Just come out and say you want to take American's guns away.

Maybe I missed another assault weapon thread somewhere....

why is a ban on "assault weapons" a cowardly or negative act?

[MannyIsGod]

I see, its the assault weapons. I simply have no problems with bans on weapons like AK47s.

[Winehole23]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:FJ2Ya5OdRllYMM:http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/squid1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/squid1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/blog/unknown-hinson-and-the-squidbillies/&usg=__u57RfvKfxWRtLfjRPIiqiHRVdQs=&h=450&w=600&sz=212&hl=en&start=45&um=1&tbnid=FJ2Ya5OdRllYMM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearly%2Bcuyler%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D 20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

[MannyIsGod]

Looks like AHF is wrong.



Assault weapons made in China and Eastern Europe, resembling the AK-47, have become widely and cheaply available in the U.S. since Congress and the Bush administration refused to extend a ban on such weapons in 2004.
Under federal gun laws, gun dealers are not required to report multiple purchases of such weapons because they are classified as rifles.
"If you were to go into a gun store and buy 20 of these, there is no requirement by the gun dealer to fill out a multiple sales form," said the ATF's Newell.





Under Texas and federal law, there is no waiting period for the purchase of such weapons and no restriction on how many can be bought at a time.
U.S. officials say there is little they can do to go after licensed gun dealers because large purchases, dozens or hundreds at a time, are legal for U.S. citizens and legal immigrants with an INS green card unless a gun dealer suspects the purchase is being made for someone else.
ATF agents say legitimate gun dealers will often report suspicious activities, but that a small but significant number looks the other way.
"I have personally worked cases where gun dealers have willfully allowed hundreds of guns to leave their gun store knowing that they were going into the wrong hands," said Newell.


While I feel this isn't the best way to deal with the "drug war" (decriminalize now please - don't forget to tax), I have absolutely no problem with assault weapon bans. None.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4695848&page=2

[Winehole23]

http://capitalcitychris.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/squidbillies.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

I love me some squid billies

[Winehole23]

Looks like AHF is wrong.

While I feel this isn't the best way to deal with the "drug war" (decriminalize now please - don't forget to tax), I have absolutely no problem with assault weapon bans. None.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4695848&page=2Strong.

Rebuttal?

[DarrinS]

I know there are several anti gun members of the administration,


Yeah, like the POTUS.

[LockBeard]

Maybe I missed another assault weapon thread somewhere....

why is a ban on "assault weapons" a cowardly or negative act?


The "Coward" part is just my little hit on Mustache man for calling Americans cowards when dealing with race (when the truth is the left silents all debate on race that disagrees with them through political correctness)

[LockBeard]

Looks like AHF is wrong.







While I feel this isn't the best way to deal with the "drug war" (decriminalize now please - don't forget to tax), I have absolutely no problem with assault weapon bans. None.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4695848&page=2

Decriminalize cocaine? Simple pot is little league status in today's world.

You think more tax revenue would change anything? It's like giving more money to a crackhead. Tax revenue without any accountability or focus on efficiency/effectiveness is a hell'a'va drug.

[Winehole23]

Decriminalize cocaine?

You think more tax revenue would change anything? Taxed narcotics might take some pressure off taxed individual income and help to defray the social costs of addiction.

[MannyIsGod]

Step one - click on the link of a GOP hack.

Step two - find information that contradicts their point

Step three - profit

[Blake]

taxed narcotics might take some pressure off taxed individual income and help to defray the social costs of addiction.

+1

[Winehole23]

Step three - profitContested.

[baseline bum]

AHF is right on about how almost no one can buy automatic weapons anywhere legally. Those knock-off AK47 that Manny's talking about aren't the fully automatic ones you see cops and eastern-bloc military using; they're semiautomatic rifles. If I was going to go commit a massacre, I'd either use a 30.06 from far away or go buy a real AK on the black market. Banning "assault rifles" because they look scary is crazy.

[Winehole23]

Banning "assault rifles" because they look scary is crazy.The mean lookin guns motif. Ban the mean lookin guns. I've heard this line somewhere (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115338&highlight=lookin+guns)...

[LockBeard]

Taxed narcotics might take some pressure off taxed individual income and help to defray the social costs of addiction.

oh yeah bro, we all know the government gets their bellies full with some tax revenue and never lusts for more more more more more more more

[Winehole23]

oh yeah bro, we all know the government gets their bellies full with some tax revenue and never lusts for more more more more more more moreEventually it devolves to the level of a PKD (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/scanner_darkly) novel, where recovering drug slaves tend government drug plantations and the government is the monopoly source. We're not quite there yet. Baby steps.

[MannyIsGod]

AHF is right on about how almost no one can buy automatic weapons anywhere legally. Those knock-off AK47 that Manny's talking about aren't the fully automatic ones you see cops and eastern-bloc military using; they're semiautomatic rifles. If I was going to go commit a massacre, I'd either use a 30.06 from far away or go buy a real AK on the black market. Banning "assault rifles" because they look scary is crazy.

Can you provide documentation of this? I'm looking right now but I have a ton of shit to write tonight so I can't look all that well, because its my understanding the ban that was in place was repealed so now they can get real fully automatic weapons.

[Winehole23]

because its my understanding the ban that was in place was repealed so now they can get real fully automatic weapons.The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban) expired (http://www.havocscope.com/news/2008/12/repeal-of-assault-weapons-ban-leads-to-stockpiling-of-guns-in-mexico/) in 2004 according to the Houston Chronicle.

[Winehole23]

duplicate post.

[Winehole23]

(when the truth is the left silents all debate on race that disagrees with them through political correctness)And somehow, it did not manage to silence you. Bravo. Golf clap.

[baseline bum]

Can you provide documentation of this? I'm looking right now but I have a ton of shit to write tonight so I can't look all that well, because its my understanding the ban that was in place was repealed so now they can get real fully automatic weapons.

That's been my experience going to gun shows. Every AK I run across at gun shows or in gun shops is a semi-automatic knock-off.

[Winehole23]

And also, what debate? Wasn't that the AG's point? People don't like to face up to race so instead they duck it entirely like you just did.

Nobody's saying shit about race in this thread except you, LockBeard. Has your own side of the debate concluded already? Did it ever start? I didn't notice.

[boutons_]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo153x23.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/ads/spacer.gifhttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/ads/fox/printerfriendly.gifhttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/adx/images/ADS/19/18/ad.191814/tw_120x60_np.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/printer-friendly&pos=Position1&sn2=336c557e/4f3dd5d2&sn1=41513e0c/512b1edf&camp=foxsearch2009_emailtools_1011070e_nyt5&ad=TW_120x60_printerfriendly_wins&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/thewrestler)

February 26, 2009

U.S. Is a Vast Arms Bazaar for Mexican Cartels

By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.

PHOENIX — The Mexican agents who moved in on a safe house full of drug dealers last May were not prepared for the fire power that greeted them.

When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns.

Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers, knowing they would send them to a drug cartel (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/drug_trafficking/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) in the western state of Sinaloa. The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year.

Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.

“We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel,” said Thomas G. Mangan, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/b/bureau_of_alcohol_tobacco_and_firearms/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in Phoenix.

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.

The ease with which Mr. Iknadosian and two other men transported weapons to Mexico over a two-year period illustrates just how difficult it is to stop the illicit trade, law enforcement officials here say.

The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border.

What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task.

Smugglers routinely enlist Americans with clean criminal records to buy two or three rifles at a time, often from different shops, then transport them across the border in cars and trucks, often secreting them in door panels or under the hood, law enforcement officials here say. Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases.

“We can move against the most outrageous purveyors of arms to Mexico, but the characteristic of the arms trade is it’s a ‘parade of ants’ — it’s not any one big dealer, it’s lots of individuals,” said Arizona’s attorney general, Terry Goddard, who is prosecuting Mr. Iknadosian. “That makes it very hard to detect because it’s often below the radar.”

The Mexican government began to clamp down on drug cartels in late 2006, unleashing a war that daily deposits dozens of bodies — often gruesomely tortured — on Mexico’s streets. President Felipe Calderón (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/felipe_calderon/index.html?inline=nyt-per) has characterized the stream of smuggled weapons as one of the most significant threats to security in his country. The Mexican authorities say they seized 20,000 weapons from drug gangs in 2008, the majority bought in the United States.

The authorities in the United States say they do not know how many firearms are transported across the border each year, in part because the federal government does not track gun sales and traces only weapons used in crimes. But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border.

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

Mr. Iknadosian is accused of being one of those dealers. So brazen was his operation that the smugglers paid him in advance for the guns and the straw buyers merely filled out the required paperwork and carried the weapons off, according to A.T.F. investigative reports. The agency said Mr. Iknadosian also sold several guns to undercover agents who had explicitly informed him that they intended to resell them in Mexico.

Mr. Iknadosian, 47, will face trial on March 3 on charges including fraud, conspiracy and assisting a criminal syndicate. His lawyer, Thomas M. Baker, declined to comment on the charges, but said Mr. Iknadosian maintained his innocence. No one answered the telephone at Mr. Iknadosian’s home in Glendale, Ariz.

A native of Egypt who spent much of his life in California, Mr. Iknadosian moved his gun-selling operation to Arizona in 2004, because the gun laws were more lenient, prosecutors said.
Over the two years leading up to his arrest last May, he sold more than 700 weapons of the kind currently sought by drug dealers in Mexico, including 515 AK-47 rifles and one .50 caliber rifle that can penetrate an engine block or bulletproof glass, the A.T.F. said.

Based on the store’s records and the statements of some defendants, investigators estimate at least 600 of those weapons were smuggled to Mexico. So far, the Mexican authorities have seized seven of the Kalashnikov-style rifles from gunmen for the Beltrán Leyva cartel who had battled with the police.

The store was also said to be the source for a Colt .38-caliber pistol stuck in the belt of a reputed drug kingpin, Alfredo Beltrán Leyva, when he was arrested a year ago in the Sinaloan town of Culiacán. Also linked to the store was a diamond-studded handgun carried by another reputed mobster, Hugo David Castro, known as El Once, who was arrested in November on charges he took part in killing a state police chief in Sonora.

According to reports by A.T.F. investigators, Mr. Iknadosian sold more than 60 assault rifles in late 2007 and early 2008 to straw buyers working for two brothers — Hugo Miguel Gamez, 26, and Cesar Bojorguez Gamez, 27 — who then smuggled them into Mexico.

The brothers instructed the buyers to show up at X-Caliber Guns and to tell Mr. Iknadosian they were there to pick up guns for “Cesar” or “C,” the A.T.F. said. Mr. Iknadosian then helped the buyers fill out the required federal form, called the F.B.I. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/federal_bureau_of_investigation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) to check their records and handed over the rifles. The straw buyers would then meet one of the brothers to deliver the merchandise. They were paid $100 a gun.
The Gamez brothers have pleaded guilty to a count of attempted fraud. Seven of the buyers arrested last May have pleaded guilty to lesser charges and have agreed to testify against Mr. Iknadosian, prosecutors said.

In one transaction, Mr. Iknadosian gave advice about how to buy weapons and smuggle them to a person who turned out to be an informant who was recording him, according to a transcript. He told the informant to break the sales up into batches and never to carry more than two weapons in a car.


“If you got pulled over, two is no biggie,” Mr. Iknadosian is quoted as saying in the transcript. “Four is a question. Fifteen is, ‘What are you doing?’ ”

Copyright 2009 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)


============

gun rights in USA has nothing to do with 2nd amendment, and everything to do with business for gun/ammo dealers and manufacturers.

gun freaks are sickos.

[Winehole23]

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Strong.

Rebuttal?

:lol Sure.

Look, Holder and several on this forum obviously do not understand the difference between semi-auto and fully automatic.

The weapons that Holder cites as being used in violence in Mexico are grenade launchers, grenades, and fully auto weapons.

You can't go out and buy grenades or launchers here in the U.S., so let's set that one aside.

On to the so called evil 'assault weapons.' You cannot buy a fully auto assault rifle in this country. The AK-47 styled weapons Manny cites are semi-auto versions of their automatic cousins the Soviets pumped out for decades.

Fully auto means you pull the trigger and it keeps firing bullets until the clip empties or you let go of the trigger.

Semi-auto means one trigger pull, one bullet. Semi-auto assault rifles, i.e., the Ak-47 and AR-15 variants sold in the U.S., fire one round per trigger pull. That's the same rate of fire as a pistol or revolver.

But they look evil, and are the gateway weapon to start moving down the path of banning all firearms for those like Holder and Obama who hate guns and want to take them away.

More firearms murders are committed in this country by way of revolver, 9mm handgun, or shotgun, than by these 'evil' weapons.

As to those who say there is no legitimate use for these other than to kill, well you're wrong

1) they're just fun to shoot
2) the first time any of you come face to face with a feral hog charging you through the brush from 20 feet away when you're out camping or hunting, you'd never begrudge anyone the right to have more than 4-5 shots in a hunting rifle magazine at their disposal.

As to Holder's conclusion that he needs to infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights in this country to help out Mexico with their problems, I suggest if he's that concerned about it he moves to Mexico and becomes their AG.

The automatic weapons the cartels are using in Mexico ain't coming from the U.S., they can't be bought here. They're coming from bought off Mexican army soldiers and illicit arms trade in South America.

But this violence in Mexico makes for a nice red herring for the administration to come after guns. And that's freakin' pathetic.

And just to come full circle on Manny's thread:

Yes, you can purchase the semi-auto style assault rifles here in the U.S. Several of the more anti-gun states in the east do require permitting before you buy. When you buy any gun in this country, your background is checked against an FBI database, except under certain exceptions (ie., here in Texas if you have a CHL they don't run the background check at the time of purchase, but they ran a more intensive FBI background check on you as part of the CHL permitting process).

The only way to purchase fully auto weapons that are being used in some of the violence in Mexico is if you pay some pretty exorbitant fees to the BATF, and go through an incredibly thorough screening process (have to sit down face to face with ATF, explain to them why you really feel you need full auto weapons, etc.).

There is no way to buy a semi-auto and get the parts to turn it into a full-auto without going through the same process (to buy the fully auto parts you have to go through the ATF as well).

And let's not pretend this is limited to assault weapons, Holder has declared his intent to go after hi capacity (over 10 round) magazines, as well as hollow point ammunition that is popular for home defense, under the guise of calling the ammunition 'cop killer' bullets. That's cute, it was a nice tag line used in the 80s when hollow points came out.

The fact is, if someone breaks into your home or attacks you out in public, you want to be able to use rounds like that to put the bad guy down in a hurry. Without hollow point ammo, you end up with bad days like the Luby's shooting, the Hollywood shootout, or the Miami FBI shootout.

[Winehole23]

.You can't go out and buy grenades or launchers here in the U.S., so let's set that one aside.It's not what you don't know that will kill you. It's what think you know for a goddam fact. Are you sure about this? You were apparently wrong about illicit gun commerce b/w Mexico and the US being negligible.


As to those who say there is no legitimate use for these other than to kill, well you're wrong

1) they're just fun to shoot
Guns are fun to shoot. Yes. And hell yes. Wh23 enjoys and endorses the responsible discharge of firearms.


2) the first time any of you come face to face with a feral hog charging you through the brush from 20 feet away when you're out camping or hunting, you'd never begrudge anyone the right to have more than 4-5 shots in a hunting rifle magazine at their disposal.It concerns me whenever my friends talk about going pig hunting. I always ask the firepower question, even though I know next to nothing about it. Do ye have enough never loses its relevance. WH23 respects a pig.


As to Holder's conclusion that he needs to infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights in this country to help out Mexico with their problems, I suggest if he's that concerned about it he moves to Mexico and becomes their AG.I take it you live in Texas, AHF. Did you forget that it touches Mexico, and that we share problems like organized crime?


The automatic weapons the cartels are using in Mexico ain't coming from the U.S., they can't be bought here. They're coming from bought off Mexican army soldiers and illicit arms trade in South America.
1800 of 2400 weapons were traceable to US sellers in 2007. Who cares where the guns were made?


Yes, you can purchase the semi-auto style assault rifles here in the U.S.With aftermarket modification, some of these mean lookin guns are convertible to full auto, no?


The only way to purchase fully auto weapons that are being used in some of the violence in Mexico is if you pay some pretty exorbitant fees to the BATF, and go through an incredibly thorough screening process (have to sit down face to face with ATF, explain to them why you really feel you need full auto weapons, etc.).

There is no way to buy a semi-auto and get the parts to turn it into a full-auto without going through the same process (to buy the fully auto parts you have to go through the ATF as well).Is that the only way to do it?


The fact is, if someone breaks into your home or attacks you out in public, you want to be able to use rounds like that to put the bad guy down in a hurry. Without hollow point ammo, you end up with bad days like the Luby's shooting, the Hollywood shootout, or the Miami FBI shootout.Whatever works for you is fine with me.

I'm generally progun, but I can see the public safety angle.

Can you?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's not what you don't know that will kill you. It's what think you know for a goddam fact. Are you sure about this? You were apparently wrong about illicit gun commerce b/w Mexico and the US being negligible.


I wasn't wrong about illicit gun commerce. I said they weren't getting automatic weapons from the U.S., which is true. So they bought semi-autos here and smuggled them there.

1) the Mexican border patrol needs to do a better job catching guns going into their country if it's such an issue, instead of us Americans having our 2nd Amendment rights infringed on to help out a lawless neighboring country.

2) Your question about grenades and grenade launchers isn't even worth my time. Tell you what, you find me a single gun show or web site for firearms in this country where you can buy either of those items without the requisite cavity search from the BATF, and I'll happily eat crow. But you won't.



I take it you live in Texas, AHF. Did you forget that it touches Mexico, and that we share problems like organized crime?


And banning guns here won't do squat. They banned guns in England, and now their murder rate is higher than before, only people are using knives. They're now considering banning everything down to steak knives over there.

There are laws on the books against straw man purchases and smuggling firearms across international boundaries. We should be enforcing those, not banning guns.

But this whole issue with what's going on in Mexico is just weak political cover for Holder to go after guns.

And more to the point, they're getting most of their evil full auto stuff from other places in South America or the Mexican army. Banning weapons in our country will just turn them to Columbia, Brazil, etc.

You want more security on our border? Build a wall and put up more border patrol. Banning guns isn't going to solve squat for what's going on in Mexico right now.



1800 of 2400 weapons were traceable to US sellers in 2007. Who cares where the guns were made?


So go after sellers who are breaking the laws and seal up the border, instead of trying to trample on our constitutional rights to help out a sorry neighbor country that does everything it can to encourage its people to come here illegally.



With aftermarket modification, some of these mean lookin guns are convertible to full auto, no?


Aftermarket parts that can only be purchased here in the U.S. with the aforementioned long conversation with BATF.



Is that the only way to do it?


I can't speak to the firearms laws in South and Central America, but that's the way it is here in the U.S. Additionally, when they passed the laws controlling automatic weapons, one of the provisions was that semi-autos would be built to specs that would not allow them to be modified to become full auto. I believe this was achieved by sizing parts such that full auto parts, mainly the trigger and feed/receiver parts (which move the bullets from the mags to the chamber) were too large to fit in semi-autos.

Here's some more background on the purchase of full autos and your grenades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act


In general, even some components that make up an NFA item are considered regulated. For example, each baffle inside a silencer, if removed from the tube, is considered a silencer. Thus, individuals cannot legally own any part of a silencer without registering it with the BATFE and paying NFA taxes. Silencers and machine guns are the most heavily regulated. For example, in Ruling 81-4, BATFE declared that any AR-15 drop-in Auto-Sears made after November 1, 1981 is itself a machine gun, and is therefore subject to regulation. While this might seem to mean that pre-1981 sears are legal to possess without registration, BATFE closes this loophole in other publications, stating, "Regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession of such a sear and certain M-16 fire control parts is possession of a machinegun as defined by the NFA. Specifically, these parts are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun and are a machinegun as defined in the NFA."

Owning the parts needed to assemble other NFA weapons is generally prohibited. A person cannot own machine gun trigger components unless he owns a registered machine gun. The M2-Carbine trigger pack is such an example of a “combination of parts” that is a machinegun in and of its own. Most of these have been registered as they were pulled from surplus rifles in the early 1960’s.

Most current fully-automatic trigger groups will not fit their semi-automatic firearm look-alike counterparts – the semi-automatic version is specifically constructed to reject the fully-automatic trigger group by adding metal in critical places. This addition is required by the ATF to prevent easy conversion of Title I weapons into machine guns. Additionally, the fully-automatic trigger group is also permanently modified in such a way that it cannot be made to function as a fully-automatic fire control device. The ATF has listed required manufacturing procedures for modifying these fully-automatic trigger groups to make them into legal semi-automatic trigger-groups for civilian sales.

Here's the relevant part about purchasing full auto weapons or something like grenades:


All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from the ATF, obtain a signature from the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4.[2]


The registration or transfer process (to an individual or corporation) takes approximately 1-3 months to complete. Additionally, the firearm can never be handled or transported by any other private individual unless the firearm's registered owner is present.

And if you don't do all the above:


The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, including but not limited to: engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to firearms without having registered or paid a special occupational tax; receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[3]

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations.[4] A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), under the general tax evasion statute.[5] For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.[6]






I'm generally progun, but I can see the public safety angle.

Can you?

I see it, but I don't feel it's a valid concern. I'll have to dig it up but I remember reading earlier this year that more crimes are committed with 9mm handguns, revolvers, and shotguns than with these 'evil' assault weapons.

This is more about incremental restrictions on gun ownership. If semi-auto rifles get banned and that gets held up in court against constitutional challenges, then the next jump for anti-gunners like Holder and Pelosi would be to argue semi-auto hand guns are evil, etc.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I wanted to put this into a separate post than my reply to you, but here's discussion of the previous AWB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Effect_on_crime


An unpublished 2004 study commissioned by the United States Department of Justice found that assault weapons were used in 2 to 8 percent of gun crimes prior to the ban. Large capacity magazines were also covered by the ban, accounting for 14% to 26% of guns used in crime prior to the ban. Following implementation of the ban, the share of gun crimes involving AWs declined by 17% to 72% across the localities examined by this study. It was also noted that should it be renewed, the ban's effects on gun violence were likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement due to assault weapons rarely being used in gun crimes even before the ban.[8]

A 1999 preliminary study commissioned by the Department of Justice on the Assault Weapons Ban found that gun murders dropped 11% from 1994 to 1995, though the "limited [study] time frame weakens the ability of statistical tests to discern effects that may be meaningful from a policy perspective," therefore the ban’s "short-term influence on gun violence has been uncertain, due perhaps to the continuing availability of grandfathered assault weapons, close substitute guns and large capacity magazines, and the relative rarity with which the banned weapons were used in gun violence even before the ban."[9]

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

By the way, this proves what a farce gun bans are. California has some of the strictest gun measures in the U.S., including banning anything over 10 round magazines and outlawing the purchase of AR-15 and AK-47 style assault weapons. And they're #2 on the list.

[Winehole23]

I wasn't wrong about illicit gun commerce. I said they weren't getting automatic weapons from the U.S., which is true. So they bought semi-autos here and smuggled them there.First of all, thanks for responding in detail and supporting your points. It's much appreciated.

That said, is the bolded a distinction without a difference? On the same evidence the government calls for a ban.


1) the Mexican border patrol needs to do a better job catching guns going into their country if it's such an issue, instead of us Americans having our 2nd Amendment rights infringed on to help out a lawless neighboring country.Mexicans probably say the very same, but I know what you mean.


2) Your question about grenades and grenade launchers isn't even worth my time. Tell you what, you find me a single gun show or web site for firearms in this country where you can buy either of those items without the requisite cavity search from the BATF, and I'll happily eat crow. But you won't.It was speculative.

I would tend to assume that there is a domestic black market for exotic weapons in addition to guns. That there is no legal path to ownership does not prevent the sale from happening. That was all I meant.


And banning guns here won't do squat. They banned guns in England, and now their murder rate is higher than before, only people are using knives. They're now considering banning everything down to steak knives over there.
Crazy. But we're not quite there yet. Not even close, really.


There are laws on the books against straw man purchases and smuggling firearms across international boundaries. We should be enforcing those, not banning guns. Why pass a shitty new law when existing law already covers it? Agree 100%.


But this whole issue with what's going on in Mexico is just weak political cover for Holder to go after guns.Was this operation used opportunistically by Holder to promote intended policy? I'd say there's no doubt about it.


You want more security on our border? Build a wall and put up more border patrol. Banning guns isn't going to solve squat for what's going on in Mexico right now. You think the guns don't drive through the checkpoints like everything else? How does a wall help that?


So go after sellers who are breaking the laws and seal up the border, instead of trying to trample on our constitutional rights to help out a sorry neighbor country that does everything it can to encourage its people to come here illegally.I hope they liked our hospitality, because the trend has reversed, and pretty soon we might be following them back.


Aftermarket parts that can only be purchased here in the U.S. with the aforementioned long conversation with BATF.*Black market.*


I can't speak to the firearms laws in South and Central America, but that's the way it is here in the U.S. Additionally, when they passed the laws controlling automatic weapons, one of the provisions was that semi-autos would be built to specs that would not allow them to be modified to become full auto. I believe this was achieved by sizing parts such that full auto parts, mainly the trigger and feed/receiver parts (which move the bullets from the mags to the chamber) were too large to fit in semi-autos.Thanks for your scrutiny of this topic, AHF. It's appreciated.

IMO the legal bona fides of the makers -- if it is not defeated by the ingenuity of the market -- eventually falls to the skill of the craftsman. The users beat the game every time.


I see it, but I don't feel it's a valid concern. I'll have to dig it up but I remember reading earlier this year that more crimes are committed with 9mm handguns, revolvers, and shotguns than with these 'evil' assault weapons.I believe you. These weapons are more of a danger to LE than anyone else probably.


This is more about incremental restrictions on gun ownership. If semi-auto rifles get banned and that gets held up in court against constitutional challenges, then the next jump for anti-gunners like Holder and Pelosi would be to argue semi-auto hand guns are evil, etc.Free speech advocates emphasize the slippery slope too. It makes just as much sense in this context.

Buy the guns you need right now if you can afford it.

[clambake]

how are we supposed to protect the wealthy without assault weapons?

[Winehole23]

how are we supposed to protect the wealthy without assault weapons?We have the police, the national guard and the US army for that. Or did you mean, to protect them from the police, the national guard and the US army?:lol

Back in the mid eighties, one of my high school acquaintances designed a video game where yuppies ride around in their Suburbans with machine guns and bazookas and hunt poor people, hippies and the police.

I always assumed it was a sort of utopia for BP, but for all I know it could've been his premonition of the future.

[clambake]

We have the police, the national guard and the US army for that. :lol

you left out blackwater. was that by design?

[Winehole23]

you left out blackwater. was that by design?...is now known by the faintly asiatic name "Xe (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/02/more-trouble-at.html)."

[MannyIsGod]

I like how AHF focused on what Holder is saying and completely ignore the fact that the ATF has been tracking these guns for some time now. Whether or not Holder incorrectly referenced what type of guns are being used or sold is pretty much irrelevent since the guns he's talking about are in the hands of those drug cartels and they are coming fromthe United States.

Those guns are being sold at gun shows and gun dealers here in the US and being taken to Mexico to be used. So yes, stopping those guns from being made available makes it harder for those criminals to get their hands on them. I'm a full believer that gun control doesn't stop guns from reaching the hands of a criminal and I don't believe this will completely stop these weapons from reaching their destinations in Mexico. That does not mean I think this is a bad idea because I don't feel we should stand by and allow this to happen or at least make it so fucking easy for them to get the weapon because we feel they'll get them anyway.

We're not talking about handguns or regular rifles. We're talking about weapons specifically tailored to people who want to kill large amounts of other people and I see no protection for that in the 2nd amendment.

And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war. YOU fix it.

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

[clambake]

Is now known by the faintly asiatic name "Xe (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29371304/)."

did china buy the naming rights?

[clambake]

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

perhaps it has escaped your attention that aggie has an insatiable appetite to appear "macho".

[Winehole23]

I like how AHF focused on what Holder is saying and completely ignore the fact that the ATF has been tracking these guns for some time now. Whether or not Holder incorrectly referenced what type of guns are being used or sold is pretty much irrelevent since the guns he's talking about are in the hands of those drug cartels and they are coming from the United States. Distinction w/o a difference as above.


I'm a full believer that gun control doesn't stop guns from reaching the hands of a criminal .... That does not mean I think this is a bad idea because I don't feel we should stand by and allow this to happen or at least make it so fucking easy for them to get the weapon because we feel they'll get them anyway.Honest. Gun bans are ineffective, but worth doing anyway. Why make it so easy for the criminal?


We're not talking about handguns or regular rifles. We're talking about weapons specifically tailored to people who want to kill large amounts of other people and I see no protection for that in the 2nd amendment.DC v Heller says as much. There's an individual right but no protection for "dangerous or unusual weapons."


And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war. Nevermind.


Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.I should have said dangerous mainly to LE and poor Mexicans.

[Winehole23]

did china buy the naming rights?:wow

Regardless, Xe is repositioning itself to meet new security challenges wherever they may emerge.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Questions for the all out gun supporters. If we were to ban these makers from making these guns altogether, wouldn't that help getting them off the streets? What if we were to limit the number that can be produced? Wouldn't that make it less likely that the few that are out on the market would get into the wrong hands?

[Winehole23]

By the way, this proves what a farce gun bans are. California has some of the strictest gun measures in the U.S., including banning anything over 10 round magazines and outlawing the purchase of AR-15 and AK-47 style assault weapons. And they're #2 on the list.In my mind this more goes to the magnitude of criminal opportunity (crime rate) than the fecklessness of the authorities, but you do have a basic point on competence here.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Questions for the all out gun supporters. If we were to ban these makers from making these guns altogether, wouldn't that help getting them off the streets? What if we were to limit the number that can be produced? Wouldn't that make it less likely that the few that are out on the market would get into the wrong hands?

Obama's election (and the anticipated gun ban we're now seeing advanced) has already limited the supply. You act like you can run down to Wal-Mart and find them by the shelve full. There is a finite supply of semi-auto rifles out there.


And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war. YOU fix it.

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

Yeah, silly me. It's America's job to fix corruption in Mexico, and clearly the fix for that is draconian gun laws here in the U.S.

It's not about gun collecting, and it's funny that you somehow think that 2400 firearms bought in the U.S. and used over the course of two years in Mexico is somehow the cause or a significant contributor to what's going on in Mexico.

It's cute, but what I'd expect out of you.

And again, this is straight out of the Brady Gun Law group's playbook. Get semi-auto rifles banned, have it held up in court, then go after semi-auto handguns.

The second amendment is as much about the people having a check on an out of control government as it is anything else. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to take my macho gun collection and go do some plinking. :rolleyes

[MannyIsGod]

Handguns have nothing to do with this. Protecting AK47s under the guise of handguns is fucking ridiculous considering the latest rulings on handguns AHF. It's a total and complete strawman.

[Winehole23]

Handguns have nothing to do with this. Protecting AK47s under the guise of handguns is fucking ridiculous considering the latest rulings on handguns AHF. It's a total and complete strawman.People hate the first imposition, and some see this as being an essential liberty and a primary check against tyranny.

Yes, it's a total and complete strawman as currently deployed in this thread.

But I can also understand why the precedent would be hated, and why some people think they still need fully auto AK-47s.

[BradLohaus]

Come on people... do you want to cause massive write offs? We can't end the drug war, banks need this pipeline of drug money to stay afloat during times of crisis. Don't commit economic terrorism.

And I do wonder just who is supplying the weapons for the drug war.

[baseline bum]

With all the corruption in this world, I don't trust the police and the military to be the only ones with high-powered rifles and armor-piercing ammo.

[Winehole23]

With all the corruption in this world, I don't trust the police and the military to be the only ones with high-powered rifles and armor-piercing ammo.There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

Add to it many states are currently rushing to pass legislation to reaffirm their tenth amendment rights of sovereignty. NH even just put up a bill that sets the stage for the declaration of our government being void and illegitimate if they keep going with their power grab.

I'm all for it, we need to hit the reset button on D.C.

[Winehole23]

I'm all for it, we need to hit the reset button on D.C.Isn't that what elections are for and didn't we just have one?

[Winehole23]

What's the matter, can't it wait until 2012, AHF? :lol

[baseline bum]

There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

All authority needs checks and balances.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Handguns have nothing to do with this. Protecting AK47s under the guise of handguns is fucking ridiculous considering the latest rulings on handguns AHF. It's a total and complete strawman.

I can shoot just as many bullets in 10 seconds with an AK as I can a semi-auto handgun.

It's not a strawman when the Brady campaign and guys like Holder and Emanuel are on record as it being the natural progression for gun control to take.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Isn't that what elections are for and didn't we just have one?

Yeah, and how many promises has Obama broken so far?

Bush was a shitty president, but Obama's power grab is making W. look like an amateur.

[Winehole23]

Yeah, and how many promises has Obama broken so far?How many for the record...

...bearing in mind that you gave him only 40 days to deliver?


Tough crowd.


Bush was a shitty president, but Obama's power grab is making W. look like an amateur.So then, we're essentially agreed that Bush was shitty and Obama makes him look like an amateur. :lol

[Winehole23]

Bush was a shitty president, but Obama's power grab is making W. look like an amateur.Bush was no slouch in this category.

If it weren't for W., Obama wouldn't be nearly so powerful right now. For good and for ill, right?

But right wingers on message boards were completely unalive to this eventuality until power actually passed to Obama.

I know. I was one of the people saying: don't do this; the king is too powerful now. Someday, somebody we don't like will use this power in a way we don't like.

I can remember exactly one guy -- White Chocolate on SR -- who ever agreed with me about this, and he isn't even conservative.

I don't think that day has come, we may differ on that AHF. It might be forseeable with another Lehman type event.

Have you considered that the country might *not* turn out to be sorry it left the President superpowerful and unencumbered by "quaint legalisms" like the US Constitution and Geneva, in the extreme financial crisis?
.

[Winehole23]

Terrorism was a good enough excuse to give the president a free hand to secure the interests of the US. Why isn't total financial collapse?

[MannyIsGod]

I can shoot just as many bullets in 10 seconds with an AK as I can a semi-auto handgun.

It's not a strawman when the Brady campaign and guys like Holder and Emanuel are on record as it being the natural progression for gun control to take.

Is this really the angle you're going to take? You either know your argument is bullshit or you know far less about guns than you've ever let on. I'm pretty sure your handgun isn't firing rounds the size of those in an AK and I'm pretty damn sure they're not coming out nearly as fast. To top it off I'm pretty sure your handgun can't be modified easily to be a fully automatic weapon.

Why bother with the stupid arguments AHF? This isn't talk radio and I'm not a simple minded GOP hack.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, and how many promises has Obama broken so far?

Bush was a shitty president, but Obama's power grab is making W. look like an amateur.

:lol

Power grab?

"On the campaign trail, Barack Obama swore he wouldn't be another president who grabs power for himself and resists oversight from Congress and the courts," CQ Politics (http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=weeklyreport-000003058040) reports.

And "some of the first steps Obama has taken as president, along with several of his early appointments, suggest that he actually is rejecting some of Bush's most expansive executive power claims, experts say, particularly on national security and secrecy."

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=weeklyreport-000003058040

AHF your hand fucking stinks from all the pulling out of your ass that you're doing.

[MannyIsGod]

Bush was no slouch in this category.

If it weren't for W., Obama wouldn't be nearly so powerful right now. For good and for ill, right?

But right wingers on message boards were completely unalive to this eventuality until power actually passed to Obama.

I know. I was one of the people saying: don't do this; the king is too powerful now. Someday, somebody we don't like will use this power in a way we don't like.

I can remember exactly one guy -- White Chocolate on SR -- who ever agreed with me about this, and he isn't even conservative.

I don't think that day has come, we may differ on that AHF. It might be forseeable with another Lehman type event.

Have you considered that the country might *not* turn out to be sorry it left the President superpowerful and unencumbered by "quaint legalisms" like the US Constitution and Geneva, in the extreme financial crisis?
.

I'm not even sure wtf AHF is talking about. Obama has done pretty much zero in efforts to expand executive power.

[Winehole23]

I'm not even sure wtf AHF is talking about. Obama has done pretty much zero in efforts to expand executive power.Obama doesn't even need to. The present dimensions of the office will do.

[Winehole23]

And "some of the first steps Obama has taken as president, along with several of his early appointments, suggest that he actually is rejecting some of Bush's most expansive executive power claims, experts say, particularly on national security and secrecy."
Wh23's recent reading suggests more continuity (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/28/al_haramain/index.html) than reform.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Manny, great idea, I'll wipe the shit off my hands. Just be sure to wipe it off your head as soon as you pull it out of your ass.

[MannyIsGod]

It must hurt when your bullshit is shot down with so little effort.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey AHF, I can fire a super soaker faster than an AK47 OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

[micca]

It must hurt when your bullshit is shot down with so little effort.

AHF presented a really great amount of information, and insights into the gun trade, and the fight to control peoples acsses to gun. thanks alot AHF youd didn't shoot shit down manny

[baseline bum]

There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

iG5yuaXtYDs

[micca]

Interesting discussion, I urge those who feel Obama and the socialist coalition he is the figurehead of, are a real threat to their rights to take real action.Even if you don't own a gun join the NRA they are already set up as an effective political action force, and your time and money can be more effectively harnassed through them to protect your rights. voting is no longer enough it's time to get active and get organized.

[Winehole23]

Interesting discussion, I urge those who feel Obama and the socialist coalition he is the figurehead of, are a real threat to their rights to take real action.Even if you don't own a gun join the NRA they are already set up as an effective political action force, and your time and money can be more effectively harnassed through them to protect your rights. voting is no longer enough it's time to get active and get organized.That's your radical advice? Join the NRA? :lol