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View Full Version : Slavery in tomato fields: "It is not an assumption It is a fact."



Winehole23
02-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Barry Estabrook (http://www.gourmet.com/profiles/barry_estabrook/search?contributorName=Barry%20Estabrook) Politics of the Plate: The Price of Tomatoes (http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2009/03/politics-of-the-plate-the-price-of-tomatoes?currentPage=3)


Originally Published March 2009


If you have eaten a tomato this winter, chances are very good that it was picked by a person who lives in virtual slavery.


http://www.gourmet.com/images/magazine/2009/03/maar-tomatoslaves608.jpg
Working at breakneck speed, you might be able to pick a ton of tomatoes on a good day, netting about $50 at 45 cents per 32-pound basket. But a lot can go wrong.



Driving from Naples, Florida, the nation’s second-wealthiest metropolitan area, to Immokalee takes less than an hour on a straight road. You pass houses that sell for an average of $1.4 million, shopping malls anchored by Tiffany’s and Saks Fifth Avenue, manicured golf courses. Eventually, gated communities with names like Monaco Beach Club and Imperial Golf Estates give way to modest ranches, and the highway shrivels from six lanes to two. Through the scruffy palmettos, you glimpse flat, sandy tomato fields shimmering in the broiling sun. Rounding a long curve, you enter Immokalee. The heart of town is a nine-block grid of dusty, potholed streets lined by boarded-up bars and bodegas, peeling shacks, and sagging, mildew-streaked house trailers. Mongrel dogs snooze in the shade, scrawny chickens peck in yards. Just off the main drag, vultures squabble over roadkill. Immokalee’s population is 70 percent Latino. Per capita income is only $8,500 a year. One third of the families in this city of nearly 25,000 live below the poverty line. Over one third of the children drop out before graduating from high school.


Immokalee is the tomato capital of the United States. Between December and May, as much as 90 percent of the fresh domestic tomatoes we eat come from south Florida, and Immokalee is home to one of the area’s largest communities of farmworkers. According to Douglas Molloy, the chief assistant U.S. attorney based in Fort Myers, Immokalee has another claim to fame: It is “ground zero for modern slavery.”



The beige stucco house at 209 South Seventh Street is remarkable only because it is in better repair than most Immokalee dwellings. For two and a half years, beginning in April 2005, Mariano Lucas Domingo, along with several other men, was held as a slave at that address. At first, the deal must have seemed reasonable. Lucas, a Guatemalan in his thirties, had slipped across the border to make money to send home for the care of an ailing parent. He expected to earn about $200 a week in the fields. Cesar Navarrete, then a 23-year-old illegal immigrant from Mexico, agreed to provide room and board at his family’s home on South Seventh Street and extend credit to cover the periods when there were no tomatoes to pick.
Lucas’s “room” turned out to be the back of a box truck in the junk-strewn yard, shared with two or three other workers. It lacked running water and a toilet, so occupants urinated and defecated in a corner. For that, Navarrete docked Lucas’s pay by $20 a week. According to court papers, he also charged Lucas for two meager meals a day: eggs, beans, rice, tortillas, and, occasionally, some sort of meat. Cold showers from a garden hose in the backyard were $5 each. Everything had a price. Lucas was soon $300 in debt. After a month of ten-hour workdays, he figured he should have paid that debt off.



But when Lucas—slightly built and standing less than five and a half feet tall—inquired about the balance, Navarrete threatened to beat him should he ever try to leave. Instead of providing an accounting, Navarrete took Lucas’s paychecks, cashed them, and randomly doled out pocket money, $20 some weeks, other weeks $50. Over the years, Navarrete and members of his extended family deprived Lucas of $55,000.



Taking a day off was not an option. If Lucas became ill or was too exhausted to work, he was kicked in the head, beaten, and locked in the back of the truck. Other members of Navarrete’s dozen-man crew were slashed with knives, tied to posts, and shackled in chains. On November 18, 2007, Lucas was again locked inside the truck. As dawn broke, he noticed a faint light shining through a hole in the roof. Jumping up, he secured a hand hold and punched himself through. He was free.



What happened at Navarrete’s home would have been horrific enough if it were an isolated case. Unfortunately, involuntary servitude—slavery—is alive and well in Florida. Since 1997, law-enforcement officials have freed more than 1,000 men and women in seven different cases. And those are only the instances that resulted in convictions. Frightened, undocumented, mistrustful of the police, and speaking little or no English, most slaves refuse to testify, which means their captors cannot be tried. “Unlike victims of other crimes, slaves don’t report themselves,” said Molloy, who was one of the prosecutors on the Navarrete case. “They hide from us in plain sight.”






And for what? Supermarket produce sections overflow with bins of perfect red-orange tomatoes even during the coldest months—never mind that they are all but tasteless. Large packers, which ship nearly $500 million worth of tomatoes annually to major restaurants and grocery retailers nationwide, own or lease the land upon which the workers toil. But the harvesting is often done by independent contractors called crew bosses, who bear responsibility for hiring and overseeing pickers. Said Reggie Brown, executive vice president of the Florida Tomato Growers Exchange, "We abhor slavery and do everything we can to prevent it. We want to make sure that we always foster a work environment free from hazard, intimidation, harassment, and violence." Growers, he said, cooperated with law-enforcement officers in the Navarette case.


But when asked if it is reasonable to assume that an American who has eaten a fresh tomato from a grocery store or food-service company during the winter has eaten fruit picked by the hand of a slave, Molloy said, “It is not an assumption. It is a fact.”


Gerardo Reyes, a former picker who is now an employee of the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) (http://ciw-online.org/), a 4,000-member organization that provides the only voice for the field hands, agrees. Far from being an anomaly, Reyes told me, slavery is a symptom of a vast system of labor abuses. Involuntary servitude represents just one rung on a grim ladder of exploitation. Reyes said that the victims of this system come to Florida for one reason—to send money to their families back home. “But when they get here, it’s all they can do to keep themselves alive with rent, transportation, food. Poverty and misery are the perfect recipe for slavery.”



Tomato harvesting involves rummaging through staked vines until you have filled a bushel basket to the brim with hard, green fruits. You hoist the basket over your shoulder, trot across the field, and heave it overhead to a worker in an open trailer the size of the bed of a gravel truck. For every 32-pound basket you pick, you receive a token typically worth about 45 cents—almost the same rate you would have gotten 30 years ago. Working at breakneck speed, you might be able to pick a ton of tomatoes on a good day, netting about $50. But a lot can go wrong. If it rains, you can’t pick. If the dew is heavy, you sit and wait until it evaporates. If trucks aren’t available to transport the harvest, you’re out of luck. You receive neither overtime nor benefits. If you are injured (a common occurrence, given the pace of the job), you have to pay for your own medical care.



Leaning against the railing of an unpainted wooden stoop in front of a putty-colored trailer, a tired Juan Dominguez told an all-too-familiar story. He had left for the fields that morning at six o’clock and returned at three. But he worked for only two of those nine hours because the seedlings he was to plant had been delivered late. His total earnings: $13.76.
I asked him for a look inside his home. He shrugged and gestured for me to come in. In one ten-foot-square space there were five mattresses, three directly on the floor, two suspended above on sheets of flimsy plywood. The room was littered with T-shirts, jeans, running shoes, cheap suitcases. The kitchen consisted of a table, four plastic chairs, an apartment-size stove, a sink with a dripping faucet, and a rusty refrigerator whose door wouldn’t close. Bare lightbulbs hung from fixtures, and a couple of fans put up a noisy, futile effort against the stale heat and humidity. In a region where temperatures regularly climb into the nineties, there were no air conditioners. One tiny, dank bathroom served ten men. The rent was $2,000 a month—as much as you would pay for a clean little condo near Naples.



Most tomato workers, however, have no choice but to live like Dominguez. Lacking vehicles, they must reside within walking distance of the football-field-size parking lot in front of La Fiesta, a combination grocery store, taqueria, and check-cashing office. During the predawn hours, the lot hosts a daily hiring fair. I arrived a little before 5 a.m. The parking lot was filled with more than a dozen former school buses. Outside each bus stood a silent scrum of 40 or 50 would-be pickers. The driver, or crew boss, selected one worker at a time, choosing young, fit-looking men first. Once full, the bus pulled away.



Later that day, I encountered some of the men and women who had not been picked when I put in a shift at the Guadalupe Center of Immokalee’s soup kitchen. Tricia Yeggy, the director of the kitchen, explained that it runs on two simple rules: People can eat as much as they want, and no one is turned away hungry. This means serving between 250 and 300 people a day, 44 per sitting, beginning at eleven o’clock. Cheerful retirees volunteer as servers, and the “guests” are unabashedly appreciative. The day’s selection—turkey and rice soup with squash, corn, and a vigorous sprinkle of cumin—was both hearty and tasty. You could almost forget the irony: Workers who pick the food we eat can’t afford to feed themselves.



The CIW has been working to ease the migrants’ plight since 1993, when a few field hands began meeting sporadically in a church hall. Lucas Benitez, one of the coalition’s main spokespeople, came to the group in its early years. Back then, the challenge was taking small steps, often for individual workers. To make the point, Benitez unfolded a crumpled shirt covered in dried blood. “This is Edgar’s shirt,” he said.



One day in 1996, a 16-year-old Guatemalan boy named Edgar briefly stopped working in the field for a drink of water. His crew boss bludgeoned him. Edgar fled and arrived at the coalition’s door, bleeding. In response to the CIW’s call for action, over 500 workers assembled and marched to the boss’s house. The next morning, no one would get on his bus. “That was the last report of a worker being beaten by his boss in the field,” said Benitez. The shirt is kept as a reminder that by banding together, progress is possible.



Even though the CIW has been responsible for bringing police attention to a half dozen slavery prosecutions, Benitez feels that slavery will persist until overall conditions for field workers improve. The group has made progress on that front by securing better pay. Between the early 1980s and the mid-1990s, the rate for a basket of tomatoes remained 40 cents—meaning that workers’ real wages dropped as inflation rose. Work stoppages, demonstrations, and a hunger strike helped raise it to 45 cents on average, but the packers complained that competition for customers prevented them from paying more. One grower refused to enter a dialogue with CIW hunger strikers because, in his words, “a tractor doesn’t tell the farmer how to run the farm.” The CIW decided to try an end run around the growers by going directly to the biggest customers and asking them to pay one cent more per pound directly to the workers. Small change to supermarket chains and fast-food corporations, but it would add about twenty dollars to the fifty a picker makes on a good day, the difference between barely scraping by and earning a livable wage.



The Campaign for Fair Food, as it is called, first took aim at Yum! Brands, owner of Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, KFC, Long John Silver’s, and A&W. After four years of pressure, Yum! agreed to the one-cent raise in 2005 and, importantly, pledged to make sure that no worker who picked its tomatoes was being exploited. McDonald’s came aboard in 2007, and in 2008 Burger King (http://www.gourmet.com/foodpolitics/2008/05/politicsoftheplate_05_06_08), Whole Foods Market, and Subway followed, with more expected to join up this year. But the program faces a major obstacle. Claiming that the farmers are not party to the arrangement, the Florida Tomato Growers Exchange, an agricultural cooperative that represents some 90 percent of the state’s producers, has refused to be a conduit for the raise, citing legal concerns.



When the Navarrete case came to light, there were no howls of outrage from growers. Or from Florida government circles. When Cesar Navarrete, who pleaded guilty, was sentenced to 12 years in prison this past December, Terence McElroy of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services offered his perspective on the crime: “Any legitimate grower certainly does not engage in that activity. But you’re talking about maybe a case a year.”



Charlie Frost, the Collier County Sheriff’s Office detective who investigated and arrested Navarrete, disagrees. With one case wrapped up, he and prosecutor Molloy turned to several other active slavery cases. Sitting in his Naples office and pointing his index finger east, toward the fields of Immokalee, he said, “It’s happening out there right now.”



Lucas, who received a temporary visa for his testimony, is now back in the fields, still chasing the dream of making a little money to send back home.
Buying Slave-Free Fruits

In the warm months, the best solution is to follow that old mantra: buy seasonal, local, and small-scale. But what about in winter? So far, Whole Foods is the only grocery chain that has signed on to the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) Campaign for Fair Food, which means that it has promised not to deal with growers who tolerate serious worker abuses and, when buying tomatoes, to a pay a price that supports a living wage. When shopping elsewhere, you can take advantage of the fact that fruits and vegetables must be labeled with their country of origin. Most of the fresh tomatoes in supermarkets during winter months come from Florida, where labor conditions are dismal for field workers, or from Mexico, where they are worse, according to a CIW spokesman. One option during these months is to buy locally produced hydroponic greenhouse tomatoes, including cluster tomatoes still attached to the vine. Greenhouse tomatoes are also imported from Mexico, however, so check signage or consult the little stickers often seen on the fruits themselves to determine their source. You can also visit the CIW’s information-packed website (ciw-online.org (http://ciw-online.org/)) if you are interested in becoming part of the coalition’s efforts.
cement officers in the Navarette case.



But when asked if it is reasonable to assume that an American who has eaten a fresh tomato from a grocery store or food-service company during the winter has eaten fruit picked by the hand of a slave, Molloy said, “It is not an assumption. It is a fact.”

johnsmith
02-26-2009, 03:12 PM
Yeah............but what are ya gonna do?

Winehole23
02-26-2009, 03:19 PM
Yeah............but what are ya gonna do?I think pointing it out to people is a first step toward diminishing it.

doobs
02-26-2009, 04:15 PM
Great, am I going to have to pay more for tomatoes now?

Winehole23
02-26-2009, 04:18 PM
Great, am I going to have to pay more for tomatoes now?See, doobs gets it.

Winehole23
02-26-2009, 04:24 PM
So shut up and eat your $20.00 cruelty-free salad.:smchode:

DarrinS
02-26-2009, 04:28 PM
Ah, another bleeding heart class warfare article. Thanks.


So, these people are basically forced to pick tomatoes?



EDIT> My bad. I actually had to read the entire long-winded article.


Wow, sucks to be them.

Winehole23
02-26-2009, 04:42 PM
The primary source is Gourmet Magazine (http://www.gourmet.com/).

sook
02-26-2009, 04:43 PM
terrible

101A
02-26-2009, 05:04 PM
No wonder all the tomatoes I buy taste like cardboard!

Idiot slave is picking 'em too early!

Hard to exploit good help these days.

Winter is tough; the wife and I have 40 plants each season, however - limited to canned sauce to make it through the winter; there's a local farm that has LARGE Green Houses that we can buy year-round; expensive, but worth it; more so now that I've seen this.

Homeland Security
02-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Ha ha ha -- serves them right for entering the country illegally. Let them work to death, then let the dogs eat their bodies.

LnGrrrR
02-26-2009, 05:48 PM
Ah, another bleeding heart class warfare article. Thanks.


So, these people are basically forced to pick tomatoes?



EDIT> My bad. I actually had to read the entire long-winded article.


Wow, sucks to be them.

LOL you're such a putz.

Winehole23
02-26-2009, 05:56 PM
LOL you're such a putz.I read the caps at EDIT onward as signifying reversal. I thought there was a detectable change in DarrinS's tone in the last two lines.

dimsah
02-26-2009, 08:52 PM
No wonder all the tomatoes I buy taste like cardboard!

Idiot slave is picking 'em too early!


obscure factoid alert.

Tomatoes that are to be shipped have to be picked while they're green or they won't last the trip. They're "ripened" at that point by being gassed with ethylene.

That's why it's always better to grow your own or buy from a local farmers market so you know they've ripened on the vine.

mouse
02-26-2009, 11:28 PM
I wonder what Kerry's wife thinks about this topic.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/rx_heinz_kerry_040722_ssv.jpg

mouse
02-26-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm surprised Halliburton hasn't taken over this project.



http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/hal.jpg

Winehole23
02-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Najlaa International Catering Service (http://crime.suite101.com/article.cfm/modern_day_slavery) .

Winehole23
02-27-2009, 12:36 AM
KBR. (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Halliburton_contractor_sued_for_human_trafficking_ 0828.html)

Horn Tooter
02-27-2009, 03:51 AM
KBR. (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Halliburton_contractor_sued_for_human_trafficking_ 0828.html)



:tu

Wild Cobra
02-27-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, so many liberals like illegal immigration. The wages are so cheap because we have excessive illegal cheap labor.

Want a fair wage? Enforce the immigration laws and make it next to impossible to employ illegal work.

The title is a lie. They choose to work for the given price.

Winehole23
02-27-2009, 07:03 PM
The title is a lie. But the charges stuck.

TDMVPDPOY
02-27-2009, 11:54 PM
most of the time those jobs on farms especially fruit/vege picking are cash in hand jobs

alot of migrants come over and ppl on fake visas come here to work on those fields, if your that damn good you can earn like AUS$100 = us$64 a day...most of the time they either bring food from home, share rent in caravan parks or someshit....Alot of these ppl who work on farms, are usually deprived ppl with the lack of education and english is probably their 2nd language and shit at it, but if they're smart go back to native country marry some country girl who knows how to work on the fields; go back to america or someshit and rake in the money. I knew someone who did this, killing it with both incomes combined AUS$110k cash on hand working on farms picking fruits and shit.

It helps also if ur boss is good with its workers, cause u got dogs out there who exploit workers....

Cant_Be_Faded
02-28-2009, 12:28 AM
Mi burrito toma-tiiiilllo!

DMX7
02-28-2009, 03:07 AM
Great, am I going to have to pay more for tomatoes now?

Oh you sir, are a winner at life.

Winehole23
02-28-2009, 08:04 AM
(Still clowning on Mi burrito tom-atiiiilllo!)

micca
02-28-2009, 09:57 PM
so just rmember you all when you buy a tomatoe your propping up slavery,not the politically correct kind like in the Sudan but the bad kind.

Wild Cobra
02-28-2009, 10:02 PM
so just rmember you all when you buy a tomatoe your propping up slavery,not the politically correct kind like in the Sudan but the bad kind.
I buy mine at the local growers market when my plants don't have any. Then I have so many, I give some to the neighbors. If they aren't in season, I just do without.

No comparison between naturally grown and ripened tomatoes to store bought.

micca
02-28-2009, 10:14 PM
I buy mine at the local growers market when my plants don't have any. Then I have so many, I give some to the neighbors. If they aren't in season, I just do without.

No comparison between naturally grown and ripened tomatoes to store bought. Here, here..what kind do you grow

Winehole23
03-01-2009, 11:02 AM
so just rmember you all when you buy a tomatoe your propping up slavery in the United States, not the politically correct kind like in the Sudan but the bad kind.Fixed.

boutons_
03-01-2009, 02:58 PM
"liberals like illegal immigration"

proof? any evidence at all? or just your usual bullshit lies?

Everybody benefits the cheap fruit, veg, nuts, etc made possible by illegal immigrants paid shit wages, including all right-wing/Repug/conservative businessmen who exploit them, who REALLY like illegal immigrants.

jack sommerset
03-01-2009, 05:24 PM
so just rmember you all when you buy a tomatoe your propping up slavery,not the politically correct kind like in the Sudan but the bad kind.

What about ketchup?Salsa?

baby tomato was walking slow behind all his brothers and sisters. Finally the mom said "ketchup"

PixelPusher
03-01-2009, 05:48 PM
We liberals have been going about it all wrong; instead of advocating the boycott of foods based on empathic motivations regarding cruelty and bondage, we should just rebrand the whole Fair Trade movement to be more inclusive...

...call it "Anti Immigration Food" - nah, too negative, and a mouthfull to say. How about "Native-born Food"? "Patriot Food" maybe?

Winehole23
03-01-2009, 06:10 PM
"Patriot Food" maybe?Taken (http://www.patriotfood.com/).

smeagol
03-01-2009, 07:06 PM
I thought illegals drove drunk and killed white chicks (at least that is what I heard in The Factor)

jack sommerset
03-01-2009, 07:50 PM
The spin stops here

Winehole23
03-01-2009, 07:58 PM
The spin stops hereWell, you can tell us what you actually think jack, or just let the O'Reilly tagline stand all on its own. Which is it?

jack sommerset
03-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Well, you can tell us what you actually think jack, or just let the O'Reilly tagline stand all on its own. Which is it?

I choose choice two. Let it stand baby!

Winehole23
03-01-2009, 08:51 PM
Well the Spurs game is still technically a contest so that makes sense jack. So long.

911
03-01-2009, 09:17 PM
baby tomato was walking slow behind all his brothers and sisters. Finally the mom said "ketchup"

How long you been waiting to use that one liner?

Winehole23
03-01-2009, 09:23 PM
You're gonna pick on him for that, 9/11? It doesn't even concern you. Why continue to muddy up this thread? :lol

jack sommerset
03-01-2009, 10:43 PM
how long you been waiting to use that one liner?

1994

LnGrrrR
03-02-2009, 11:58 AM
I read the caps at EDIT onward as signifying reversal. I thought there was a detectable change in DarrinS's tone in the last two lines.

Yes, but it's still funny to me that he was 'self-owned' as it were. At least he caught his own mistake. Maybe he'll read next time before commenting. :D

LnGrrrR
03-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Well, so many liberals like illegal immigration. The wages are so cheap because we have excessive illegal cheap labor.

Want a fair wage? Enforce the immigration laws and make it next to impossible to employ illegal work.

The title is a lie. They choose to work for the given price.

Except for the fact that when they want to leave, they're forced to stay. Apart from that key point, you're correct. Meaning you're not. At all.

DarrinS
03-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Yes, but it's still funny to me that he was 'self-owned' as it were. At least he caught his own mistake. Maybe he'll read next time before commenting. :D

:rolleyes

TDMVPDPOY
03-02-2009, 12:11 PM
you know some of these immigrants who work on farms tend to integrate better into society than the fagots every year the country intakes immigration program.....these so called workers who do the jobs americans wouldnt do at that price which requires no skills or some times these immigrants have no skills for other jobs have no option but to do these jobs......there a few who know how to save up and open their own farms and live of the land....

Extra Stout
03-02-2009, 12:14 PM
Did Wild Cobra not read the article through, or does he really think that once somebody agrees to take what they think is a voluntary job, they can be held against their will on whatever terms the master... oops I mean employer chooses?

Based on his posting history as an insane nativist crank, I'm thinking the latter is true.

TDMVPDPOY
03-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Did Wild Cobra not read the article through, or does he really think that once somebody agrees to take what they think is a voluntary job, they can be held against their will on whatever terms the master... oops I mean employer chooses?

Based on his posting history as an insane nativist crank, I'm thinking the latter is true.

problem we have here is the illegal immigrant has no person rights under american law, unless the constitution says so in regards to illegal immigrants...

Winehole23
03-02-2009, 12:18 PM
Even ES joins the dogpile.

http://uga.edu/gm/ee/images/feature_photos/dogpile.jpg

LnGrrrR
03-02-2009, 12:20 PM
:rolleyes

Hey, we all do it from time to time. :D

Winehole23
03-02-2009, 12:22 PM
Did Wild Cobra not read the article through, or does he really think that once somebody agrees to take what they think is a voluntary job, they can be held against their will on whatever terms the master... oops I mean employer chooses?You just recite the legal commonplace. It's a free contract. Even when the contract turns out to be debt peonage (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555897/peonage.html) and forced labor. :rolleyes

LnGrrrR
03-02-2009, 12:24 PM
problem we have here is the illegal immigrant has no person rights under american law, unless the constitution says so in regards to illegal immigrants...

Where did this idea come from? Illegal immigrants in this country are guaranteed certain rights. Freedom from slavery, for one thing, as well as basic rights like freedom from theft, freedom from physical harm, etc etc.

TDMVPDPOY
03-02-2009, 12:28 PM
Where did this idea come from? Illegal immigrants in this country are guaranteed certain rights. Freedom from slavery, for one thing, as well as basic rights like freedom from theft, freedom from physical harm, etc etc.

there are some illegal immigrants who have no right to be there, but you got them immigrants who work and contributed to american socierty or register to pay taxes or not free loading the system or become a menace to society, those are the people america should welcome into their country aka hard working immigrants....

RandomGuy
03-02-2009, 01:07 PM
Well, so many liberals like illegal immigration. The wages are so cheap because we have excessive illegal cheap labor.

Want a fair wage? Enforce the immigration laws and make it next to impossible to employ illegal work.

The title is a lie. They choose to work for the given price.

Translation:

"I didn't actually read the whole article, but I will give my half-assed opinion anyways."

Once again, your self-pwnage streak continues unabated.

If you are so intellectually lazy as to not read the whole of the article, why should we take your opinion to have any value whatsoever?

With statements like this, you make yourself into the internet version of the cranky old guy down the street who hangs out in shorts, black socks, and sandals, shaking his fist at the neighborhood kids. "Git outta my yard, you little bastards".

Can't you just once move beyond your intellectual comfort zone, and read something that you might not fully agree with, just to test your underlying assumptions?

hmm?

:depressed

RandomGuy
03-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Yes, but it's still funny to me that he was 'self-owned' as it were. At least he caught his own mistake. Maybe he'll read next time before commenting. :D

He did have the balls not to completely edit his original post, and admit his mistake.

I don't agree much with Darrin on some things, but he consistently demonstrates intellectual integrity, which is a rare commodity on the internet.

RandomGuy
03-02-2009, 01:13 PM
Well, so many liberals like illegal immigration.

... as do a lot of pro-business conservatives.

bla bla bla "liberals bad, booga booga booga". bla bla bla :blah :blah :blah

:rolleyes

LnGrrrR
03-02-2009, 02:49 PM
there are some illegal immigrants who have no right to be there, but you got them immigrants who work and contributed to american socierty or register to pay taxes or not free loading the system or become a menace to society, those are the people america should welcome into their country aka hard working immigrants....

Yes, I agree. My wife is an immigrant. My point is just that even illegal immigrants have some basic rights.

Wild Cobra
03-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Translation:

"I didn't actually read the whole article, but I will give my half-assed opinion anyways."

Once again, your self-pwnage streak continues unabated.

If you are so intellectually lazy as to not read the whole of the article, why should we take your opinion to have any value whatsoever?

With statements like this, you make yourself into the internet version of the cranky old guy down the street who hangs out in shorts, black socks, and sandals, shaking his fist at the neighborhood kids. "Git outta my yard, you little bastards".

Can't you just once move beyond your intellectual comfort zone, and read something that you might not fully agree with, just to test your underlying assumptions?

hmm?

:depressed
I don't believe all the article. If the stated facts are substantiated, the grower would be in jail! I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.

People lie to the press all the time, and the press makes such things up as well.

Have any evidence of wrong doing, or do you believe everything you read in the internet?

Winehole23
03-02-2009, 09:44 PM
I don't believe all the article. If the stated facts are substantiated, the grower would be in jail! I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.Read and learn, amigo.


When Cesar Navarrete, who pleaded guilty, was sentenced to 12 years in prison this past December, Terence McElroy of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services offered his perspective on the crime: “Any legitimate grower certainly does not engage in that activity. But you’re talking about maybe a case a year.”

balli
03-02-2009, 09:46 PM
God, watching Cobra's daily punking at the hands of his own ignorance never gets old.

Wild Cobra
03-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Read and learn, amigo.
I missed that he was one of the brothers owning the operation. He was an illegal alien departed and returned too!

It was a Mexican Citizen running this. Not a USA citizen! He did it to his own people!

Wild Cobra
03-02-2009, 10:35 PM
You know, I did a little more reading on links with a search by name:

search: Cesar Navarrete (http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=%22Cesar+Navarrete%22&kgs=1&kls=0)

Navarrete himself was a tomato picker, not the grower. He probably presented himself to the grower as bringing in the fruit for him and his friends. Anyone find an article showing the actual grower knew of these activities? Funny how Navarrete would get paid the $10 per bucket of tomatoes (going rate) but give the workers only $1.00.

Again, Navarrette was in illegal migrant worker, scamming his own people! This is what happens when you allow illegal activities. He and his brother, and other family members were incarcerated over this. Not the growers they worked for.

Stop illegal immigration.

Winehole23
03-02-2009, 11:07 PM
Please show us yer links, WC. Posting your weak ass alta vista search just doesn't cut it.

RandomGuy
03-03-2009, 09:42 AM
I don't believe all the article. If the stated facts are substantiated, the grower would be in jail! I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.

People lie to the press all the time, and the press makes such things up as well.

Have any evidence of wrong doing, or do you believe everything you read in the internet?

Translation:

"The stated article doesn't reinforce my existing beliefs, and no, I will not ever take the step of examining any of my underlying assumptions, further, since it doens't reinforce my underlying beliefs, it MUST be lying, because I am incapable of being wrong."

(sighs)

You win. They're completely lying, and you don't have to make the effort to actually examine any of your pre-existing beliefs because of new information that might contradict those beliefs.

By the way, those socks are hideous. (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3156281&postcount=53)

RandomGuy
03-03-2009, 09:44 AM
God, watching Cobra's daily punking at the hands of his own ignorance never gets old.

He is still in the minor league compared to whottt, but it isn't for a lack of trying.

RandomGuy
03-03-2009, 10:05 AM
You know, I did a little more reading on links with a search by name:

search: Cesar Navarrete (http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=%22Cesar+Navarrete%22&kgs=1&kls=0)

Navarrete himself was a tomato picker, not the grower. He probably presented himself to the grower as bringing in the fruit for him and his friends. Anyone find an article showing the actual grower knew of these activities? Funny how Navarrete would get paid the $10 per bucket of tomatoes (going rate) but give the workers only $1.00.

Again, Navarrette was in illegal migrant worker, scamming his own people! This is what happens when you allow illegal activities. He and his brother, and other family members were incarcerated over this. Not the growers they worked for.

Stop illegal immigration.

If you had actually bothered to read the whole OP article, you could have saved yourself the search:


Cesar Navarrete, then a 23-year-old illegal immigrant from Mexico,

It seems that the growers probably should have been held responsible as well.

If you hire someone to harvest your fields, you have a responsibility to know what is going on in your own field. That is basic personal ethical and financial responsibility.


When the Navarrete case came to light, there were no howls of outrage from growers. Or from Florida government circles. When Cesar Navarrete, who pleaded guilty, was sentenced to 12 years in prison this past December, Terence McElroy of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services offered his perspective on the crime: “Any legitimate grower certainly does not engage in that activity. But you’re talking about maybe a case a year.”

Charlie Frost, the Collier County Sheriff’s Office detective who investigated and arrested Navarrete, disagrees. With one case wrapped up, he and prosecutor Molloy turned to several other active slavery cases. Sitting in his Naples office and pointing his index finger east, toward the fields of Immokalee, he said, “It’s happening out there right now.”

Since you asked for any article that lists a grower who knew about these activities:

Would any grower knowingly admit to knowing about it?

If this is just the tip of the iceberg, and we are just hearing about the first case, is it reasonable to assume that at least one grower might actually have some sort of positive knowledge about the conditions?

Or do you think they all are mildly aware of the circumstances of the pickers, but look the other way anyways?

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 10:28 AM
If you had actually bothered to read the whole OP article, you could have saved yourself the searchIt's useless RG. He doesn't even read the posts to begin with but instead just trolls around for bait, like a fisherman. He'll repost your words without doing any more than scanning them first and then pretend to reply. The gist will be some cliche that he already had in mind, designed to piss somebody off.

"They were doing it to themselves!"

"Stop illegal immigration."

The thing that's so tantalizing about correcting WC's entries (besides their being so blatantly and consistently wrong) is that you know WC is capable of understanding the correction, but will never (ok, almost never) bother to read what is posted to begin with.




Correct me if I'm wrong WC. Do you actually read through, or do you just skim?

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 11:31 AM
He is still in the minor league compared to whottt, but it isn't for a lack of trying.I strongly disagree. I find Whottt to be more stridently and effectively obnoxious (not to WH23 personally but just generally) than WC, but also more amenable to reason.

My perspective, FWIW.

Wild Cobra
03-03-2009, 12:48 PM
Please show us yer links, WC. Posting your weak ass alta vista search just doesn't cut it.
There are many of them, most with the same wording. Here is one that was different than most.

Case No: 2:08-cr-15-FtM-29SPC (http://www.nbc-2.com/News/documents/081027_cornacchia-reduced.pdf)

If you read a few of the links, you find that what people want to call slavery is a family of illegals doing it to other illegals. The above article is a court case document. Part of it states:

Geovanni Navarrete told Cornacchia that he made $1,000.00 on every truckload of tomatoes. Giovanni Navarrete told Cornacchia that he made $10.00 for every bucket of tomatoes his workers picked. Giovanni Navarrete told Cornacchia that his workers would make a $1.00 for every bucket of tomatoes they picked.

Now check this out:

from ICE dot GOV (http://www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0809/080903ftmyers2.htm):


The Navarette family owned and operated an agricultural business in Immokalee, Florida, which employed illegal aliens to perform field work. Cesar and Geovanni Navarrete additionally pleaded guilty to beating, threatening, restraining and locking workers in trucks to force them to work for them as agricultural laborers. Cesar Navarrete also pleaded guilty to re-entering the United States after being convicted of a felony and thereafter deported and Ismael Navarrete also pleaded guilty to document fraud. Cesar and Geovanni Navarrete face up to 35 and 25 years in prison, respectively.

As for their agriculture business:

From Florida Farmers dot ORG; Immokalee family sentenced for slavery (http://www.floridafarmers.org/news/articles/Immokaleefamilysentencedforslavery.htm):



The Navarretes took their crews to work on farms owned by some of the state’s major tomato producers: Immokalee-based Six L’s and Pacific Tomato Growers in Palmetto. Both tomato growers are part of the Socially Accountable Farm Employers program, designed to prevent labor abuses Do you see now. Their business wasa bringing crews of pickers to farms. They were not the growers, only contracted by the growers.

Even the original link says:


"But you’re talking about maybe a case a year.”

Hardly able to make the case that if you eat tomatoes, you are supporting slave labor.

Wild Cobra
03-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Would any grower knowingly admit to knowing about it?

If this is just the tip of the iceberg, and we are just hearing about the first case, is it reasonable to assume that at least one grower might actually have some sort of positive knowledge about the conditions?

Or do you think they all are mildly aware of the circumstances of the pickers, but look the other way anyways?
No Shit Sherlock. They look the other way and outsource to groups like the Navarrete's because they can pay them via 1099 and not worry about being responsible. Growers have no choice if you think about it. They know illegals work the field, but if they check, they have to get rid of their labor. They cannot pay higher wages to people to work legally, because then they cannot compete with other growers hiring illegal labor. All growers must be forced to stop hiring illegal workers. With the wide open loop-holes that exist, businesses who are ethical about such things don't last long.

Many of you have no sense of stopping illegal immigration, but this is a prime example of what happens when you selectively enforce such laws. Illegal immigration is a severe burden on our society.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 01:57 PM
No Shit Sherlock. They look the other way and outsource to groups like the Navarrete's because they can pay them via 1099 and not worry about being responsible. Growers have no choice if you think about it. They know illegals work the field, but if they check, they have to get rid of their labor. They cannot pay higher wages to people to work legally, because then they cannot compete with other growers hiring illegal labor. Basically then, you admit growers are *forced* to countenance slavery in their own fields and gather the increase but are not in the end responsible for it. How generous of you, WC.


Many of you have no sense of stopping illegal immigration, but this is a prime example of what happens when you selectively enforce such laws. Illegal immigration is a severe burden on our society.I think we might do good to rethink the way we're doing it before it picks up again.

Wild Cobra
03-03-2009, 02:14 PM
Basically then, you admit growers are *forced* to countenance slavery in their own fields and gather the increase but are not in the end responsible for it. How generous of you, WC.

No, they are forced to allow illegal workers. When they turn a blind eye to the hiring practices of their contractors, they don't know such things might be happening. If they try to disallow illegal workers, then they put themselves out of business because their competition is doing it.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 02:22 PM
BTW, thanks for the detailed links about Mr Navarrete WC. It's much appreciated.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 04:31 PM
Hardly able to make the case that if you eat tomatoes, you are supporting slave labor.I disagree, but you may have a point here. There's probably not enough evidence in the courts to establish a sigma.

As to scientific verifiability of the quote in the thread title, the work is yet to be done, but as to the veracity of the tale told there is very little doubt whatsoever. It is known to a legal certainty.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 07:28 PM
"But you’re talking about maybe a case a year.” cf, steady trickle of news upstream

Face it, boss: it's the custom. You suggested so yourself. In my own very brief searches I found slavery cases from the eighties and nineties in Florida. It's hardly unheard of.

sook
03-03-2009, 07:36 PM
I disagree, but you may have a point here. There's probably not enough evidence in the courts to establish a sigma.

As to scientific verifiability of the quote in the thread title, the work is yet to be done, but as to the veracity of the tale told there is very little doubt whatsoever. It is known to a legal certainty.

where did you develop such powerful language? I highly admire the way you put things

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 07:40 PM
where did you develop such powerful language? I highly admire the way you put thingsOh please. Anyone who practiced long enough would do as well. You flatter my frivolity, sir or madam.

cheers!

WH23

clambake
03-03-2009, 07:45 PM
Oh please. Anyone who practiced long enough would do as well. You flatter my frivolity, sir or madam.

cheers!

WH23

a real pro could have spun this tomato yarn into something related to bloody marys.

just kidding.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 07:46 PM
I read too much as a child and never gave up the habit. It was a good way of getting people to leave me alone. I'm ambivalent about it for that reason now.

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Also, it can be tricky getting just the right handle on WC. It's a chore unpacking what he really means sometimes. I'm sure the unpacking can be a chore too; it's a little weird to collect an aficionado for my efforts. Weird, but ok.

Thanks for the H/T, sook.

sook
03-03-2009, 08:23 PM
Yea well the art of persuasion and formulating your argument has a lot to do with how you put it into words. Alot of people talk out of their ass and use big words but few are as adept as you. You owned me pretty bad when i was debating you over something i can't remember and i didn't bother replying :lol

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 08:25 PM
You owned me pretty bad when i was debating you over something i can't remember and i didn't bother replying :lolEh, c'est la guerre. You lived. :toast

Winehole23
03-03-2009, 08:29 PM
As I recall, it was related to the Gaza invasion and you did reply, admitting your PFA. I haven't forgotten that, yet. :tu

You seem to have suppressed the memory, but that isn't so shocking. It wasn't exactly highlight reel (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3019340&postcount=298) type material.

LnGrrrR
03-04-2009, 11:17 AM
I don't believe all the article. If the stated facts are substantiated, the grower would be in jail! I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.

People lie to the press all the time, and the press makes such things up as well.

Have any evidence of wrong doing, or do you believe everything you read in the internet?

WC won't believe it until you bring him the person enslaving the workers, the workers themselves, and a 1 day pass to see the workers pulling the tomatos and then being beaten.

WC's evidence of proof reminds me of Chappelle's evidence of proof for R. Kelly...