Are we better with Mason as our back up pg?

[MaNu4Tres]

I like Pops adjustment going into tonight's game and demoting Hill in favor of Mason as our back up pg. This gives Bruce more minutes. I think this makes us better and more efficient on the offensive end.

Any thoughts?

[Spursfan092120]

I like Pops adjustment going into tonight's game and demoting Hill in favor of Mason as our back up pg. This gives Bruce more minutes. I think this makes us better and more efficient on the offensive end.

Any thoughts?

lol..I'll let you know after the game.

[EricB]

I think demoting Hill is a gigantic mistake and making Mason a shooting guard, the point guard, is a huge mistake.

This move is loaded with a million pounds of fail.

[DAF86]

I like Pops adjustment going into tonight's game and demoting Hill in favor of Mason as our back up pg. This gives Bruce more minutes. I think this makes us better and more efficient on the offensive end.

Any thoughts?

Let the rookie make mistakes, if you didn't use him to get a decent big in a trade use him on the court at least.

[Mr. Body]

George Hill goes down to the NBDL.

[HarlemHeat37]

it looks better because the Clippers aren't putting any pressure on Mason..he's usually an average ball handler with poor passing skills..I love Roger, but he can't play PG for consistent minutes..

this doesn't help Hill's confidence..

[Mavs<Spurs]

I think demoting Hill is a gigantic mistake and making Mason a shooting guard, the point guard, is a huge mistake.

This move is loaded with a million pounds of fail.

I could not agree more with EricB on this.

Mason does not handle the ball well. I don't think he can run the team. I think it hurts Hill's game. Hill is a rookie and will have ups and downs. You still have to give him the minutes because you will need him down the stretch whenever Parker needs a breather.

And even if we get Head, Hill should play ahead of Head, even though Head is the better shooter.


This move makes no sense to me from any perspective.

BTW, if we aren't a great defensive team, then playing Bruce more minutes isn't a good idea. The only time that playing Bruce made a lot of sense was when we were a lock-down defensive team. We aren't that now. We won't be.

And this isn't laying the fault of our defensive decline all on Bruce either. Bruce can only be aggressive when he knows there is a big to defend the paint if he gets beat. If Tim gets drawn out of the paint, then there is no second big to guard the rim and so if Bruce gets beat, it is 2 points.

Playing one good defender with limited offensive skills a lot of minutes does not make sense if the team defense as a whole is average. The improvement in defense will not be great. And Bruce is not a player that has to be guarded that much, outside of the corner 3. So, the improvement to our defense would be limited. And the decline in our offense would be significant.

Therefore, to me, unless we radically improve our defense, giving Bruce a lot more minutes does not make sense.


:flag:

[MaNu4Tres]

it looks better because the Clippers aren't putting any pressure on Mason..he's usually an average ball handler with poor passing skills..I love Roger, but he can't play PG for consistent minutes..

this doesn't help Hill's confidence..

Ever since Tony has came back Hill hasn't really shown the confidence he did before.

[EricB]

Ever since Tony has came back Hill hasn't really shown the confidence he did before.


So benching him and not playing him at all will give him confidence?

Makes sense.

[HarlemHeat37]

Hill has hit the rookie wall..he's shown the ability to be a good player, it's all mental..he's not going to get past the wall if Pop isn't showing confidence in him though..

[bigdog]

I think it's a mistake to put Mason in there ahead of Hill at PG. Mason is NOT a PG. The only way you're going to allow Hill to get better as a PG is by playing him as Tony's backup.

[EricB]

i hope george hill goes down to the nbdl.


fify

[ducks]

So benching him and not playing him at all will give him confidence?

Makes sense.

spurs are trying to win a ring

[MaNu4Tres]

So benching him and not playing him at all will give him confidence?

Makes sense.

Never said it will. I just said since Tony has came back he hasn't had that confidence he had before.

[ducks]

if hill hit the wall giving hill a few games off will help him get rested before playoffs

[Austin_Toros]

I could not agree more with EricB on this.

Mason does not handle the ball well. I don't think he can run the team. I think it hurts Hill's game. Hill is a rookie and will have ups and downs. You still have to give him the minutes because you will need him down the stretch whenever Parker needs a breather.

And even if we get Head, Hill should play ahead of Head, even though Head is the better shooter.


I think Mason is quite a good ball handler- no PG material, but anyway.
And when you consider Hill's sub-par play of late, the move is not that bad.

[Agloco]

No

[EricB]

Never said it will. I just said since Tony has came back he hasn't had that confidence he had before.

Seeing this observation, you then say your in favor of benching him.

So what I said still stands.

[urunobili]

Mase will play the point in the playoffs...

[MaNu4Tres]

Seeing this observation, you then say your in favor of benching him.

So what I said still stands.

When its game 5 against LA. Yes I rather have Mason playing back up pg than Hill because not only is Hill probably our least efficient wing outside of udoka. It will give Bowen more minutes.

[DAF86]

Mase will play the point in the playoffs...

So why did you give me so much shit when I proposed Gortat for Hill? :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

So why did you gave me so much shit when I proposed Gortat for Hill? :lol

Maybe because Hill has a bargain of a contract for another 4 years after this year and has a lot of room for improvement.

[DAF86]

Maybe because Hill has a bargain of a contract for another 4 years after this year and has a lot of room for improvement.

I think Gortat does too

[Mavs<Spurs]

I think Mason is quite a good ball handler- no PG material, but anyway.
And when you consider Hill's sub-par play of late, the move is not that bad.

I have seen him struggle with his handle on a fast break one on one and leading a 2 on 1 fast break from about half court.

That to me tells me he is not a strong ball handler; he is a weak to iffy ball handler. It is okay if he is a shooting guard and can make his moves with the ball once the ball is past half court. Then, he is fine with the ball (to beat his man) or pull up for a j. But the responsibilities of a point guard require him to be a lot better ball handler.

Remember Beno Udrih and what happened to him against Detroit in the 05 Finals. You can't put a weak ball handler as your primary ball handler who has to run your offense. And Beno is a point guard (more or less).

Manu has the ball skills to act as point guard at any time necessary. Mason does not.

Mason is a good 2 guard and is on the whole playing really well for us this season and deserves to be starting. But don't put him out of position which requires him to have stronger ball handling skills than he has shown so far.

[DAF86]

Maybe because Hill has a bargain of a contract for another 4 years after this year and has a lot of room for improvement.

Besides who cares? after 2010/11 we'll no longer be a contender.

[HarlemHeat37]

have you guys actually seen Mason handle the ball? I don't think I've seen anybody else in Spurs history get as many "carrying" calls as Mason..

[Mavs<Spurs]

When its game 5 against LA. Yes I rather have Mason playing back up pg than Hill because not only is Hill probably our least efficient wing outside of udoka. It will give Bowen more minutes.

Now this part of your argument really confuses me.


"Hill should be benched because he is our least efficient wing outside of Udoka. "

HILL IS A MORE EFFICIENT WING THAN BOWEN ON OFFENSE BY FAR !!! BOWEN ON OFFENSE MAKES HILL LOOK LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN ON OFFENSE

And Hill is a very promising on defense and much younger and athletic than Bowen.

And in any event, adding 1 purely defensive player to our lineup won't improve our defense much, but it will make our offense much worse.

[EricB]

When its game 5 against LA. Yes I rather have Mason playing back up pg than Hill because not only is Hill probably our least efficient wing outside of udoka. It will give Bowen more minutes.

Awesome, take away one of the guards who drives to the basket and causes the opponent problems.

Great gameplan.

[MaNu4Tres]

so bench Bowen when we play the lakers in favor of hill?

[MaNu4Tres]

Awesome, take away one of the guards who drives to the basket and causes the opponent problems.

Great gameplan.

Hill is overrated on this board. His penetration isn't as threatening as you are implying. I rather give Bowen more minutes to guard Kobe. I guess I'm just crazy.

[MaNu4Tres]

When it comes down to a decisive playoff game you can take it to the bank that Manu or Mason will be our back up point. Mark my words.

[HarlemHeat37]

if Manu and Mason are the options and Hill is struggling, Pop will go to a different plan..he'll play Parker more minutes..I don't wanna see Manu or Mason playing PG..Mason doesn't have PG skills, and Manu is a horrible decision maker..

[Mavs<Spurs]

so bench Bowen when we play the lakers in favor of hill?

That seems to imply Bowen is a starter now.

He is not. starting.

He is playing a couple of minutes a game every once in a while.

Bowen is not our back up point guard.

Mason does not have the ball handling skills required to be a back up point guard. He struggles handling the ball leading a fast break.

Hill will be our back up. He actually goes to the rim strong and is extremely athletic. And he plays good defense.


Again, how much better will our team defense be just because we put Bowen in?

How much does having Bowen in hurt our team offense because the other team only has to guard 4 players?

If it is the last play of a one possession game and the Lakers have the ball, then it makes sense to have Bowen in and not Hill.

However, mostly, they are not playing the same position.

Bruce cannot be our back up point guard. And neither can Mason.

Hill can and must be.

[MaNu4Tres]

That seems to imply Bowen is a starter now.

He is not. starting.

He is playing a couple of minutes a game every once in a while.

Bowen is not our back up point guard.

Mason does not have the ball handling skills required to be a back up point guard. He struggles handling the ball leading a fast break.

Hill will be our back up. He actually goes to the rim strong and is extremely athletic. And he plays good defense.


Again, how much better will our team defense be just because we put Bowen in?

How much does having Bowen in hurt our team offense because the other team only has to guard 4 players?

If it is the last play of a one possession game and the Lakers have the ball, then it makes sense to have Bowen in and not Hill.

However, mostly, they are not playing the same position.

Bruce cannot be our back up point guard. And neither can Mason.

Hill can and must be.

Do you understand that if Manu or Mason run back up pg that would mean Hill's 12 minutes that he would see come April and May would be available. That doesn't mean Bowen plays back up pg. And maybe Bowen doesn't have the ability to put it on the floor like Hill kind of does. But Bowen is very efficient at what he does. Hill is not very efficient at what he does YET.

[EricB]

When it comes down to a decisive playoff game you can take it to the bank that Manu or Mason will be our back up point. Mark my words.


Then they will fail.

[Thompson]

Hill is pretty good handling the ball. Who was that infamously tricky vet who screwed up Beno so many times, who applied pressure to Hill all game only to have him turn it over once? Pop may be afraid of using a rookie in the playoffs, and is getting Mason some minutes at point so he'll be ready to take over if need be (worst case scenario, Hill has problems like Parker did his first go-round).

[Mavs<Spurs]

if Manu and Mason are the options and Hill is struggling, Pop will go to a different plan..he'll play Parker more minutes..I don't wanna see Manu or Mason playing PG..Mason doesn't have PG skills, and Manu sometimes makes horrible decisions..

Edited the part about Manu to make it more true, imho.


Manu can play point, imo. But he can, at times, play fast and loose with the basketball and not value possessions.

However, at the end of most of our recent championship runs, Manu has been the playmaker. I think this is very difficult to deny. We put the ball in Manu's hands at the end of games and we run a Manu and Tim pick and roll. Or we post Timmy and Manu feeds him the ball. When Tim is doubled, he passes the ball out to a wide open Manu Ginobili who buries the 3.

Manu is clutch like that.

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[EricB]

Hill is overrated on this board. His penetration isn't as threatening as you are implying. I rather give Bowen more minutes to guard Kobe. I guess I'm just crazy.


Yeah ok.

[MaNu4Tres]

Like in 05'?

[EricB]

Hill is pretty good handling the ball. Who was that infamously tricky vet who screwed up Beno so many times, who applied pressure to Hill all game only to have him turn it over once? Pop may be afraid of using a rookie in the playoffs, and is getting Mason some minutes at point so he'll be ready to take over if need be (worst case scenario, Hill has problems like Parker did his first go-round).

Lindsey Hunter.

Made a point of after the game to go over and congratulate hill.

That alone speaks volumes.

[HarlemHeat37]

Edited the part about Manu to make it more true, imho.


Manu can play point, imo. But he can, at times, play fast and loose with the basketball and not value possessions.

However, at the end of most of our championship runs, Manu has been the playmaker. I think this is very difficult to deny. We put the ball in Manu's hands at the end of games and we run a Manu and Tim pick and roll. Or we post Timmy and Manu feeds him the ball. When Tim is doubled, he passes the ball out to a wide open Manu Ginobili who buries the 3.

Manu is clutch like that.

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

of course Manu is a playmaker..but everybody knows he ALWAYS has flashes a few times a game where he makes horrible decisions..when you play him at PG, he's going to have the ball in his hands more often, which will lead to more bad decisions..

Manu is a playmaking swingman, he doesn't have the mentality to play PG>.

[Keepin' it real]

spurs are trying to win a ring

That's exactly what I think. Yes, I want Hill to develop and thrive here, but the Spurs are in contention to win a title this year. Given Hill's recent play, and Pop's general lack of trust in rookies for the playoffs, I expect Hill to be relegated to mop-up duty in the playoffs. Look for Ginobili, Mason, and yes, Vaughn to get Tony's backup minutes.

I'm afraid that Hill might never develop the way we think he could/should because he needs more minutes ... a starter's minutes. Unfortunately, he won't get those minutes here. We need someone who can give the team 10-15 quality minutes a night. Maybe Hill's not built that way.

I watched most of the Spurs games this season. When he started, Hill had some good games. When he didn't start, he had good moments, but I usually expected more than he delivered. He overachieved as a starter but underachieved as a backup. We need him to be an effective backup. Otherwise, there's no need for him.

[EricB]

Like in 05'?

Barry played point.

[Mavs<Spurs]

of course Manu is a playmaker..but everybody knows he ALWAYS has flashes a few times a game where he makes horrible decisions..when you play him at PG, he's going to have the ball in his hands more often, which will lead to more bad decisions..

Manu is a playmaking swingman, he doesn't have the mentality to play PG>.

I guess we pretty much agree.

:toast

[dastrey]

I am all in favor of doing whatever it takes to get Mason playing like he was earlier in the season.

[HarlemHeat37]

I looked up the numbers on 82games.com..Manu played 0% of the team's minutes at PG during the playoff run..

Manu isn't a PG simple as that..I'm sure he would agree with that too..

[MaNu4Tres]

Barry played point.

My point exactly. Spurs don't need a guard with chris paul handles to bring the ball up the floor. Pop put Barry out there to surround duncan with very efficient players on the wing. Hill isn't efficient yet. That's why I believe Pop will turn to Manu or mason at back up pg come playoff time.

[EricB]

My point exactly. Spurs don't need a guard with chris paul handles to bring the ball up the floor. Pop put Barry out there to surround duncan with very efficient players on the wing. Hill isn't efficient yet. That's why I believe Pop will turn to Manu or mason at back up pg come playoff time.


Barry ball handling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ginobili and Mason's ball handling


Huge difference.


Hill is not as bad as you think or hope.

[EricB]

I looked up the numbers on 82games.com..Manu played 0% of the team's minutes at PG during the playoff run..

Manu isn't a PG simple as that..I'm sure he would agree with that too..

Manu is way too slow to compete with opposing team's point guards.

George Hill is just fine. Leave him alone.

[MaNu4Tres]

I looked up the numbers on 82games.com..Manu played 0% of the team's minutes at PG during the playoff run..

Manu isn't a PG simple as that..I'm sure he would agree with that too..

Barry and Manu both shared back up pg duties in 05' and 08'. Even in 06' against Dallas when van exel was not effective. Pop didn't really face a must win situation in 07', so he didn't have to demote Vaughn's duties that year.

[MaNu4Tres]

Barry ball handling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ginobili and Mason's ball handling



What a surprise. Another over exaggerating reference.

[EricB]

What a surprise. Another over exaggerating reference.

What a suprise, butt hurt when proven wrong.

[MaNu4Tres]

What a suprise, butt hurt when proven wrong.

Is it the playoffs yet?

[EricB]

Is it the playoffs yet?


Your point?

[Mavs<Spurs]

What a surprise. Another over exaggerating reference.

Barry's ball handling is slightly better than Manu's. On the other hand, Barry can't create open shots for other players nearly as well as Manu can. And a point guard is supposed to be able do just that.

And Manu's ball handling is far superior to Mason's.

Mason struggles to handle the ball when he is leading a fast break. It's that simple. That reveals that he is not a solid ball handler.

Manu does not struggle to handle the ball leading a fast break.

And Manu's turnovers have greatly reduced over the years.

So, it does seem to be an exaggeration.

Barry's ball handling skill > Manu's ball handling skills by a little.

Barry's ball security skills >> Manu's ball security skills

Manu's ability to set up teammates for shots >>>>>>>>>>> Barry's ability to do the same.


Manu's ball handling skills >>>> Mason's ball handling skills by a wide margin


Since Mason struggles to handle the ball on fast breaks, his ball security as point guard would not be good.

[dastrey]

It will be interesting to see who Pop will go with when the Lakers are packing it in the paint in the WCF.

[MaNu4Tres]

Your point?

I said Manu or Mason will be our backup point in a tight series come May and June.


Everything else said here by me or you is irrelevant til then. We have different opinions. Right now we can get away with having a 12 man rotation and develop Hill, Hairston and our youngsters. But when it comes to a tight series the rotation will be cut to an 8 man rotation maybe 9. Those 9 players will be our best and most efficient players and it won't include Hill.

[MaNu4Tres]

It will be interesting to see who Pop will go with when the Lakers are packing it in the paint in the WCF.

Pop will go with Manu or Mason at back up point. That's just my opinion.

[MaNu4Tres]

Barry's ball security skills >> Manu's ball security skills

.

Barry's ball security skills looked better because of the fact that Barry took less chances and didn't create as much as Manu.

[Mavs<Spurs]

It will be interesting to see who Pop will go with when the Lakers are packing it in the paint in the WCF.

Against the best 3 point shooting team in the league, that might be a mistake.

It won't be Bowen if Pop is thinking about offense.

And if Mason were to try to be pg, they would pressure full court and force turnovers.

Mason may be in there, but not as pg.

And Manu has the 3 pt shooting ability, can handle the ball, and is an incredible playmaker.

At the end of the game, on offensive possessions, it won't be Hill or Bowen.

At the end of the game, on a defensive possession, against the Lakers it would have to be Bowen to guard Kobe.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Barry's ball security skills looked better because of the fact that Barry took less chances and didn't create as much as Manu.

I totally agree.


And if you are really thinking about this, you should compare the ratio:

turnovers to open shots created.

And I think that Manu would come out far, far ahead in this regard.


Point guard is supposed to create open shots. Barry does not do this efficiently. Manu can create an open shot for a teammate anytime he wants.
That's why I love Manu's game.

He can and does make his teammates better. And his heart. Never underestimate the heart of this champion!

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The problem with Hill is that he's way too passive sometimes. When he's on the court, there have been games where he doesn't do much more than Vaughn except defend better.


However, he is still a rookie and much better than expected. He just needs to stay aggressive and attack the rim.

[rayray2k8]

Try not to be surprised if they do use Mason as the backup PG in the playoffs during tight
games, but I also believe that Manu my share that duty as well.

Don't look now, but we're less than 8 weeks away from the playoffs...
Time to kick in that extra gear.

[024]

popovich will not use ginobili to run point in the playoffs unless he's desperate. ginobili functions best as a shooting guard and doesn't need the extra worry over running sets and plays. ginobili also turns the ball over a lot on his bad days. mason i think will handle the ball if hill proves unreliable. in the playoffs parker will play 40-42 minutes anyways so that leaves only 6 minutes for mason to not screw things up. mason played point guard while on the wizards so he would be a more logical option over ginobili.

right now though, hill has to be force fed the position of backup point guard.

[SenorSpur]

I don't like Mason's handles or his ability to setup shots for others (drive & kick). Plus, he's not the best finisher at the rim, either.

In short, no the Spurs ARE NOT better off with him as backup PG.

This again is Pop outthinking himself. Leave Hill where he is and don't stunt his development.

[Brazil]

Speaking about Mason where is his damn jumper ??? he is struggling for more than 1 month now...

[m33p0]

right now though, hill has to be force fed the position of backup point guard.

[NRHector]

have you guys actually seen Mason handle the ball? I don't think I've seen anybody else in Spurs history get as many "carrying" calls as Mason..I thought that call did not exist anymore.

[manufor3]

When it comes down to a decisive playoff game you can take it to the bank that Manu or Mason will be our back up point. Mark my words.

then were screwed

[urunobili]

So why did you give me so much shit when I proposed Gortat for Hill? :lol

Because Hill is a combo guard not necessarily a PG nor a SG... he can play both... :wakeup

[MaNu4Tres]

then were screwed

Every year when it comes down to a decisive game. from 05' til now Pop has used Manu or Barry at back up point.

[ploto]

Right after the All- Star break of his Rookie year, when he was playing well, Beno was sat so that Pop could find minutes for Brent and Devin. I always mark that day as the beginning of the end of Beno and the Spurs. I would hate to see the same for Hill.

[silverblackfan]

It's funny, I didn't see this as a knock on Hill as much as a chance to get Mason some time with the ball to create shots. Mason has been off lately and might be mentally sagging. He has said in the past that he likes handling the ball more. That said, he is not a good ball handler and looks as awkward as Matt when he attacks the basket. (Manu and Tony should give attack the basket drill training to those two.)
Hill is young and tough, he seems to accept the role given and will do what Pop asks of him. If he continues to listen and hustle, there is no problem with him. He does not strike me as mentally weak.

[NFGIII]

The problem with Hill is that he's way too passive sometimes. When he's on the court, there have been games where he doesn't do much more than Vaughn except defend better.


However, he is still a rookie and much better than expected. He just needs to stay aggressive and attack the rim.

The critical point IMO. A rookie that has hit the wall and is still feeling his way in this league. His lack of agressiveness is a concern but this is a learning process and his upside is substantial.


I don't like Mason's handles or his ability to setup shots for others (drive & kick). Plus, he's not the best finisher at the rim, either.

In short, no the Spurs ARE NOT better off with him as backup PG.

This again is Pop outthinking himself. Leave Hill where he is and don't stunt his development.


I agree with you on Mason's handle and pg skill set. Sometimes I see him make a great move and finish but more times than not he doesn't. He just eems to get a little out of control and then makes some awkward shot attempts.

The Spurs need to contiinue Hill's development and the POs are a very good teaching device. Not saying that we should ignore situations that demand Manu or even Mason playing b/u pg but Hill needs this experience to help him get to the next level.

[DAF86]

I looked up the numbers on 82games.com..Manu played 0% of the team's minutes at PG during the playoff run..

Manu isn't a PG simple as that..I'm sure he would agree with that too..

And how can you possibly prove that that is true? I bet that every time that Duncan is in the floor with Bonner Tim doesn't get any center minutes in that magical "82 games.com" web-site and yet he's the center of this team everysinlge time he's on the floor.

Everyperson that watched those playoffs knows that Manu played a lot of times as backup point, even more than Barry.

[DAF86]

Because Hill is a combo guard not necessarily a PG nor a SG... he can play both... :wakeup

If he doesn't get any playing time in the PO as a PG, I can guarantee to you that he won't be getting any as a SG.

[Bruno]

Hill is having a rough stretch but I would be surprised if Pop gave up on him and goes with Mason/Ginobili as backup PG.

[DAF86]

Barry ball handling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ginobili

What the hell are you smoking? You can't win arguments by lying. Look I'm with you in this discussion: I think Hill should be our backup in the playoffs but with those kind of coments you won't get much adeption.

Besides if you look at Manu's turnovers, 99% of them are for making stupid/impossible passes, that has nothing to do with bad ball handling.