Gaffes: Hillary Clinton is Bush on steroids

[mogrovejo]

Geez, she's been visiting Europe and it was ridiculous. How the heck is this ignorant woman replacing former Stanford Provost, Professor Rice??




Hillary Clinton raised eyebrows on her first visit to Europe as secretary of state when she mispronounced her EU counterparts’ names and claimed U.S. democracy was older than Europe’s.

(…)

A veteran politician, Clinton compared the complex European political environment to that of the two-party U.S. system, before adding:
I have never understood multiparty democracy.

(...)

The remark provoked much headshaking in the parliament of a bloc that likes to trace back its democratic tradition thousands of years to the days of classical Greece.

One working lunch later with EU leaders, Clinton raised more eyebrows when she referred to EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who stood beside her, as "High Representative Solano."

She also dubbed European Commission External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner as "Benito."


http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5253XS20090306?sp=true

I can only imagine if it was the former POTUS doing this kind of stuff, the press would be going bananas.

Anyway, I thought that one of the goals of the Obama administration was to promote better relationships with foreign countries and improve how the rest of the world sees America. I guess they changed their approach. For example:




President Barack Obama just plain rude to Britain. Don’t call us in future.

The morning papers and TV last night featured plenty of comment focused on the White House’s very odd and, frankly, exceptionally rude treatment of a British PM. Squeezing in a meeting, denying him a full press conference with flags etc. The British press corps, left outside for an hour in the cold, can take it and their privations are of limited concern to the public.

But Obama’s merely warmish words (one of our closest allies, said with little sincerity or passion) left a bitter taste with this Atlanticist. Especially after his team had made Number 10 beg for a mini press conference and then not even offered the PM lunch.

We get the point, sunshine: we’re just one of many allies and you want fancy new friends. Well, the next time you need something doing, something which impinges on your national security, then try calling the French, or the Japanese, or best of all the Germans.


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/iain_martin/blog/2009/03/04/president_barack_obama_just_plain_rude_to_britain_ dont_call_us_in_future

When even the Brits (and a newspaper like the Telegraph) are dissing you, things aren't really going very well...

[balli]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffff. Britain would be living out the fourth reich if it wasn't for us. Obama could go over there and spit in the queen's face and they'd still be indebted to us.

[Crookshanks]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffff. Britain would be living out the fourth reich if it wasn't for us. Obama could go over there and spit in the queen's face and they'd still be indebted to us.

It's not their indebtedness to us that's at issue - it's what we might need FROM them in the future.

But then again - the Messiah is going to bring about world peace, so we won't need any allies to continue our fight against the terrorists - isn't that right balli? :lmao

[Nbadan]

...with all the weapons the Bush administration has pumped into Iraq and with the troop draw-down, it won't be long till the American money runs dry and they are killing themselves again..........probably breading dozens of OBL's as we speak....

[ChumpDumper]

Now board Republicans want to kiss Europe's ass.

Make up your minds.

[balli]

It's not their indebtedness to us that's at issue - it's what we might need FROM them in the future.
Do you know what indebted means?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

OMG did anyone hear the story about her visiting her Russian counter part, presenting him with a big giant staples-esque red button, that said two words

"Reset" in english
and what they thought was "reset" in Russian.
Naturally, they got it wrong, and the word was actually "Overcharge" in Russian. The Russian guy was like "Um, actually you got it wrong"
Hillary parried with one of her strong, hearty laughs, and tried to play it off.

I'm not blaming this on Clinton, but how inept could we possibly look? Jeeze

[ChumpDumper]

Did Hillary start an unnecessary war this week?

[mogrovejo]

Now board Republicans want to kiss Europe's ass.

Make up your minds.

I'm not even an American.

But wasn't Bush heavily criticized because of his gaffes?

This administration is even worse. Plus, having a Secretary of State who is clearly so not-ready to perform her job... I mean some of the stuff is hilarious, even the receptionist here would know better.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not even an American.

But wasn't Bush heavily criticized because of his gaffes?

This administration is even worse. Plus, having a Secretary of State who is clearly so not-ready to perform her job... I mean some of the stuff is hilarious, even the receptionist here would know better.I'm not worried about the minor stuff that has been reported, just as I could only chuckle at Bush's little foibles -- it's the policies that matter.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

CD is more concerned about their positions on the melting point of steel girders.

[ChumpDumper]

CD is more concerned about their positions on the melting point of steel girders.No melting necessary.

[balli]

But wasn't Bush heavily criticized because of his gaffes?
Just to back up what Chump said, Bush was heavily mocked for his vocal/social gaffes. He was heavily criticized for burning the world into ashes.

[Ignignokt]

I'm not worried about the minor stuff that has been reported, just as I could only chuckle at Bush's little foibles -- it's the policies that matter.

Good for you. but when you're a president, an some of your citizens and even partisan foreign media made it a point to discredit you over such minor stuff, you could see how this actually (along with other things) helped polarize and alienate bush supporters from true genuine dissenters. Not only that but the rest of the world saw how our own country's elite disrespected our president, causing them to not even giving our government a decent chance to show it's vision. Everything was already proclaimed worthless becuase bush was shown cutting brush, or fumbling words. When we could have used some stronger support from countries in the rebuilding effort, we were shorthanded, (although bush was to blame for not getting support) the ones that did end up supporting us did it halfway because it's public had no faith in the american govt to help stabilize iraq.

Furthermore, i hope you realize how much of a foible it is for Obama to endanger our relationship with the british. We need the british's intel now and in the future. I hope this doesn't happen but it could happen at the way obama's going. Britian is our only true ally. This is totally nuts. Not even Gerald Ford would be this naive.

Last Point, Obama's administration is already pulling out the "your either with us or against us" card. The only problem is, that when bush did it, it was like nine months into its term ( and that was towards foreign countries). Obama has done it with in 2 months and against his own citizens. He seems to already develop an enemies list. Had this been bush, there would be all this outrage on how this is so 1984 orwellian nightmare.

To claim to be independent and impartial while denying this is to be dishonest. Even worst is to also be gutless by picking on the opposition when it's the least ballsiest and easiest thing to do.

You know who you are.

(i'm not talking bout you chump on the last one.:wakeup)

[Ignignokt]

Just to back up what Chump said, Bush was heavily mocked for his vocal/social gaffes. He was heavily criticized for burning the world into ashes.

Luckily Obama ressurected the earths infrastructure to raise superbowl conventions and have lux inaugurals with beyonce in them.

[ChumpDumper]

The British aren't going to stop being out ally because of this.

[Ignignokt]

The British aren't going to stop being out ally because of this.

And you're right. Doesn't mean that they're going to be cooperative with intelligence like in the past.

If the british see that the administration cannot be trusted, then they will have reason to withhold intelligence if they fear that our govt will sell them out.

ANd that is very crucial, yeah Obama will get invited for cucumber sandwicheas and tea, but that's all frosting and doesn't really matter in this dangerous world.

[ChumpDumper]

Why not?

Serious question.

[Ignignokt]

just edited the reason.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, but I can't see any reason for the UK to change their policy that drastically.

[Ignignokt]

Good for you. but when you're a president, an some of your citizens and even partisan foreign media made it a point to discredit you over such minor stuff, you could see how this actually (along with other things) helped polarize and alienate bush supporters from true genuine dissenters. Not only that but the rest of the world saw how our own country's elite disrespected our president, causing them to not even giving our government a decent chance to show it's vision. Everything was already proclaimed worthless becuase bush was shown cutting brush, or fumbling words. When we could have used some stronger support from countries in the rebuilding effort, we were shorthanded, (although bush was to blame for not getting support) the ones that did end up supporting us did it halfway because it's public had no faith in the american govt to help stabilize iraq.

Furthermore, i hope you realize how much of a foible it is for Obama to endanger our relationship with the british. We need the british's intel now and in the future. I hope this doesn't happen but it could happen at the way obama's going. Britian is our only true ally. This is totally nuts. Not even Gerald Ford would be this naive.

Last Point, Obama's administration is already pulling out the "your either with us or against us" card. The only problem is, that when bush did it, it was like nine months into its term ( and that was towards foreign countries). Obama has done it with in 2 months and against his own citizens. He seems to already develop an enemies list. Had this been bush, there would be all this outrage on how this is so 1984 orwellian nightmare.

To claim to be independent and impartial while denying this is to be dishonest. Even worst is to also be gutless by picking on the opposition when it's the least ballsiest and easiest thing to do.

You know who you are.

(i'm not talking bout you chump on the last one.:wakeup)


and that's my qualifier.

I said if it stays this way. So i see it in this regard, the british will be at unease to share things such as terror cell info; if they feel the americans cannot be trusted, and other EU countries are upset over the british methods of gathering and info while the US shows favor towards the other EU countries, Britian will see every right to withhold info and go about it in their own way.

[ChumpDumper]

Fair enough. I just don't see what realistic action by the administration could drag the US/UK relationship to that level in a post 9/11 environment.

[Ignignokt]

Fair enough. I just don't see what realistic action by the administration could drag the US/UK relationship to that level in a post 9/11 environment.

And you're not necessarily wrong.

It's the obama's thing to loose. THe british aren't desperate to free themselves from us.

But....
Again, the british govt protects itself first like everyone else. The day they see that sharing info with the americans will be detrimental, (remember, Obama is only one man, all it takes is a rogue official to put britian in a bad place that thinks he has the green light because of the administration's new tone on the pecking order with Europe, or rather softening of the past view.) is the day that they will stop sharing crucial info that we need if they feel that it's against our own national interest.

[Winehole23]

.Even worst is to also be gutless by picking on braindead Spurstalk conservatives when it's the least ballsiest and easiest thing to do.

You know who you are.Fixed .

I'm guilty as charged. It's too easy..

[mogrovejo]

Criticizing, mocking... would Hillary Clinton be able to tell the difference?

Policies apart, there are some unwritten formal rules one expects these guys to comply to. Burke theorized about the importance of this kind of stuff. It's important to preserver a sense of dignity about the way some political institutions behave and relate to each others. It's just a matter of formality, but it's no less important because of that. These new guys are amazingly amateurish though when it comes to this. The red button/reset episode with Lavrov was embarrassing and painful to watch even to me. This succession of episodes shows an incredible lack of competence and plenty of vulgarity.

Anyway you slice it, this doesn't project a good image of the US and this administration to the rest of the world. In every newspaper I read today, 4 of them, there was an ed. making fun of Hillary, the Dumb. And odd as it may sound, good image is an important instrument of foreign policy. Nobody wants to risk collaborating more than the min. requirements with amateurs without good-manners...

[shelshor]

OMG did anyone hear the story about her visiting her Russian counter part, presenting him with a big giant staples-esque red button, that said two words

"Reset" in english
and what they thought was "reset" in Russian.
Naturally, they got it wrong, and the word was actually "Overcharge" in Russian. The Russian guy was like "Um, actually you got it wrong"
Hillary parried with one of her strong, hearty laughs, and tried to play it off.

I'm not blaming this on Clinton, but how inept could we possibly look? Jeeze

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/72297/

March 6, 2009
“SMART” DIPLOMACY (CONT’D):

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton opened her first extended talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov by giving him a present meant to symbolize the Obama administration’s vow to “press the reset button” on U.S.-Russia relations.
She handed a palm-sized box wrapped with a bow. Lavrov opened it and pulled out the gift: a red button on a black base with a Russian word peregruzka printed on top.
“We worked hard to get the right Russian word. Do you think we got it?” Clinton asked.
“You got it wrong,” Lavrov said.
Instead of “reset,” Lavrov said the word on the box meant “overcharge.”

[Yonivore]

Smartest.Woman.In.The.World.

[Sec24Row7]

Meh... small mistake...

[Ignignokt]

Fixed .

I'm guilty as charged. It's too easy..

No reason to pronounce yourself guilty, gutlessness isn't a crime. And pretending to be outraged by one side because they contradict themselves...well nm. You're naive, and was born after the first tuesday of november. I should have known.

[boutons_]

a reset button? a tone-deaf gimmick, typifies American childishness, especially inappropriate in this grim period when America fatally fumbled its leadership role and fucked up the world economy.

[Winehole23]

No reason to pronounce yourself guilty, gutlessness isn't a crime. And pretending to be outraged by one side because they contradict themselves.I'm not pretending. I respect honest liberals, but hate fake conservatives. Meaning almost the whole goddam GOP. What's so gutless about that? It may not be sporting to kick them while they're down, but they still deserve the kicks even though they lost the election. Politics ain't beanbag. Quit crying and peddle your sensitivity elsewhere.

[Ignignokt]

I'm not pretending. I respect honest liberals, but hate fake conservatives. Meaning almost the whole goddam GOP. What's so gutless about that? It may not be sporting to kick them while they're down, but they still deserve the kicks even though they lost the election. Politics ain't beanbag. Quit crying and peddle your sensitivity elsewhere.

Never seen the feminie sensitivity attack before<sarcasm>, i almost thought i was in the college sports forum.

Look, whatever, call it crying or pouting, you could rip on conservatives all you want. I don't go after random guy, pixel, or boutons for that, it's expected, i just go after their ideas.

But when you try to only attack conservatives from a fake cloak of impartiality, that's pretty pathetic, and you're pretty much in contention with being the biggest douche on this board.

Look, i know about free speech, bill of rights, etc so spare me your upcoming lecture.

You're free to be the biggest fake impartial independent here who claims to be above the frey. I'm not going to stop you or go to kori. If i were to do that, the terrorist win. Putting up with douchebags is a consequence of freedom.

because after all look at your statement, "I like honest liberals and fake conservatives.". You would of portrayed a better sense of what you're trying to come across if say you were to say "I like honest politcal participants and hate fake ones" or "I like honest libs and conservatives and hate fake ones.".

But instead you came out with the former, and it makes you sound like you only acknowledge that there are true liberals and for the most part fake conservatives. As if there couldn't exist fake liberals and honest conservatives.

Again, you'e free to claim and say whatevery you want.

But its as if i said " I like honest americans and hate fake foreigners". i may have not intended it to be such a black and white statement, but it basically underlies hidden prejudices.

So when there are a bunch of people on both sides acting a fool and you sit here claiming to be impartial and then pick sides, many will think of you as a fake.

I mean, you're reaching yoni status in that regard here, do you realize that.

[Wild Cobra]

Smartest.Woman.In.The.World.
Yep, so smart, she didn't need to ask any experts what the proper translation was.

Great sign of how our foreign policy will likely be...

[Winehole23]

because after all look at your statement, "I like honest liberals and fake conservatives.". You would of portrayed a better sense of what you're trying to come across if say you were to say ...I like honest libs and conservatives and hate fake ones."You wanna be my editor?

You're fired!:lol


But when you try to only attack conservatives from a fake cloak of impartiality, that's pretty pathetic, and you're pretty much in contention with being the biggest douche on this board.I'm partial as hell and I don't think I hide it too well. You made up this impartial bit, and the idea that I'm being furtive about my opinion flies in the face of my posts.

Total strawman. I try to be fair, but I take my own side too.




Putting up with douchebags is a consequence of freedom.Thanks for coming to my support on this point. You underscore it well.


As if there couldn't exist fake liberals and honest conservatives.
Honest conservatives? Scarcer than hen's teeth. Fake liberals? Let the liberals take care of their own. I mostly care to correct the idiots who give conservatism a bad name. Go buy some itch cream if this gives you a rash. :lol


So when there are a bunch of people on both sides acting a fool and you sit here claiming to be impartial and then pick sides, many will think of you as a fake.You say I claimed to be impartial. I only said I try to be fair. There's a difference. If you don't get it I can't help you.

Am I fake? People can decide for themselves. Sounds like you've already decided. C'est la friggin vie.

[Winehole23]

I mean, you're reaching yoni status in that regard here, do you realize that?Oh yeah? Prove it! :lol

[Ignignokt]

Oh yeah? Prove it! :lol


Wtf? did you not read my post?

[Winehole23]

Please find my reply to you at #34.

[Ignignokt]

I see, impartial is not the right term. What you try to portray yourself as is above the frey, and nonpartisan (NOT TO say that you are centrist, but that you are not a cheerleader for one side), like in the past when you'e commended others like 101a for being above party line.

But you're really not. Sharing things with one side is totally different than rooting for one team immaturely as if its a sport.

You certainly, i've noticed get on to people here for acting partisan or using cheap debate tactics (ex, http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118844&page=2 , funny thing is you couldn't detect the guys sarcasm), and one leads themselves that you're coming from a sincere standpoint of giving constructive criticism and you're piously trying to raise the level of intercourse here.



But you're not, not when there are others in that same thread going back in forth in the same manner the wild cobras do with insults and sorts, and you try to come in as if you're the impartial one, trying to raise everyones game here.(i use it in this context).

Sure there are people here who i consider above the frey but still have strong political beliefs, joe chalupa is one, smeagol, and even at times Peabody.

My point is, you look like a huge douchebag.

Had boutons come in here and tell AHF to stop using generalizations, and non sequitors, strawmen, and insults, everyone would think it's rather odd.

So spare us all the preaching here, thou great referee of discourse, and let everyone be.

or, not and do as you well please. It's a free country, feel free to look foolish.

[Winehole23]

You certainly, i've noticed get on to people here for acting partisan or using cheap debate tactics (ex, http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118844&page=2 , funny thing is you couldn't detect the guys sarcasm), and one leads themselves that you're coming from a sincere standpoint of giving constructive criticism and you're piously trying to raise the level of intercourse here.I'm not responsible for what you (or anybody else) thinks about what I say. Still less for mischaracterizations and strawmen.

The word pious in the quoted graf sets off the phrase as pejorative, but I do not see what's wrong about trying to raise the level of discourse, promoting mutual understanding and criticizing cheap rhetorical tricks and vituperation. If that drives you crazy, ignore me. I don't really care.



But you're not, not when there are others in that same thread going back in forth in the same manner the wild cobras do with insults and sorts, and you try to come in as if you're the impartial one, trying to raise everyones game here.(i use it in this context).Again, I'm partial as hell. Maybe the word you're looking for is independent. Spurning the two major parties doesn't make me impartial. If you conclude it does, the misunderstanding is on you.


Sure there are people here who i consider above the frey but still have strong political beliefs, joe chalupa is one, smeagol, and even at times Peabody. I'm not above the fray at all. I frequently join and enjoy it.


My point is, you look like a huge douchebag.Hah! Coming from a past master like yourself, I can only chuckle.

Also your phrase unnecessarily insults douches. Is there some kind of dishonor you attach to coming into intimate contact with a woman? :lol


Had boutons come in here and tell AHF to stop using generalizations, and non sequitors, strawmen, and insults, everyone would think it's rather odd.I'm not boutons. And anybody can say whatever they want. Including me.


So spare us all the preaching here, thou great referee of discourse, and let everyone be. I'll point out whatever I want, thanks. I don't consider myself a referee. I'm just a reader. Some posters like my takes; some, like you, will hate my guts for it. C'est la guerre. Put me on ignore if don't like me. I won't miss you at all.

[Ignignokt]

I'm not responsible for what you (or anybody else) thinks about what I say. Still less for mischaracterizations and strawmen. .

Wow, that's so revealing, i never knew we had those priveleges.


The word pious in the quoted graf sets off the phrase as pejorative, but I do not see what's wrong about trying to raise the level of discourse, promoting mutual understanding and criticizing cheap rhetorical tricks and vituperation. If that drives you crazy, ignore me. I don't really care.

Except you're not raisning the level of discourse, the people you're trying to reach ...(pffttt!!! :lmao , that sounded so funny; ok back on topic) the people you're trying to reach will not take you sincerely or even give a crap about it. And there could be some that seriously do not know that they're using cheap rhetorical tactics but are caught up in the emotion with other people who are doing the exact same thing ,and then some douchebag comes in deciding to single them out as if they're the problem with the polarization of this country ,as if he (you )has some divine mandate from Gawd!! , tries to play forum ettiquette police, and i guess they can see how big of a huge dipwad you are.

But by all means, you do what you want, Officer of the Forum Law.




Again, I'm partial as hell. Maybe the word you're looking for is independent. Spurning the two major parties doesn't make me impartial. If you conclude it does, the misunderstanding is on you.

You're also partial to not comprehending what someone posts, i already talked about what you're blathering about.


I'm not above the fray at all. I frequently join and enjoy it.

Indeed.


Also your phrase unnecessarily insults douches. Is there some kind of dishonor you attach to coming into intimate contact with a woman? :lol

Douchbags are intimate objects, wow you get creepier post by post. First of all you're the Forum Netiquette police, now you want us to envy douchebags because they clean yeast infections and that turns you on..

THat's cool for you, buddy. I'll pass.

I'm not boutons. And anybody can say whatever they want. Including me.

Yeah, you keep repeating that as if anyone disagrees with you on that one. Make it easier and write it on my Nettiquette Forum Citation officer D. Bag.



I'll point out whatever I want, thanks. I don't consider myself a referee. I'm just a reader. Some posters like my takes; some, like you, will hate my guts for it. C'est la guerre. Put me on ignore if don't like me. I won't miss you at all

:rolleyes, More victimization. Don't worry, you can do whatever you without fear of being placed in a concentration camp. Thanks for reminding everyone this is a free country. Like we totally forget everytime, Like totally mang i was about to go outside and look if there's an american flag out near my campus. No seriously thanx!

Go on champ.

You douche what you want.

[Winehole23]

:sleep

[RandomGuy]

Now board Republicans want to kiss Europe's ass.

Make up your minds.

:lol

[RandomGuy]

I see, impartial is not the right term. What you try to portray yourself as is above the frey, and nonpartisan (NOT TO say that you are centrist, but that you are not a cheerleader for one side), like in the past when you'e commended others like 101a for being above party line.

But you're really not. Sharing things with one side is totally different than rooting for one team immaturely as if its a sport.

You certainly, i've noticed get on to people here for acting partisan or using cheap debate tactics (ex, http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118844&page=2 , funny thing is you couldn't detect the guys sarcasm), and one leads themselves that you're coming from a sincere standpoint of giving constructive criticism and you're piously trying to raise the level of intercourse here.



But you're not, not when there are others in that same thread going back in forth in the same manner the wild cobras do with insults and sorts, and you try to come in as if you're the impartial one, trying to raise everyones game here.(i use it in this context).

Sure there are people here who i consider above the frey but still have strong political beliefs, joe chalupa is one, smeagol, and even at times Peabody.

My point is, you look like a huge douchebag.

Had boutons come in here and tell AHF to stop using generalizations, and non sequitors, strawmen, and insults, everyone would think it's rather odd.

So spare us all the preaching here, thou great referee of discourse, and let everyone be.

or, not and do as you well please. It's a free country, feel free to look foolish.

:lol

One of the poster boys of confirmation bias tries to criticize someone else for saying that political hackery is bad?

[fyatuk]

probably breading dozens of OBL's as we speak....

:lol

Are we talking chicken fried steak breading, or fish breading, or what?

[rascal]

:sleep


Good one there. Its about time you two put that one to bed.

[Ignignokt]

:lol

One of the poster boys of confirmation bias tries to criticize someone else for saying that political hackery is bad?

Read again.

You simplified my post(s) and either you did it purposely for whatever reason, or you're a lazy reader and comprehender.

[Winehole23]

Read again.

You simplified my post(s) and either you did it purposely for whatever reason, or you're a lazy reader and comprehender.


No, I'm disagreeing with you. That doesn't mean I'm not listening to you or understanding what you're saying. I'm doing all three at the same time.

[RandomGuy]

Hillary Clinton raised eyebrows on her first visit to Europe as secretary of state when she mispronounced her EU counterparts’ names and claimed U.S. democracy was older than Europe’s.

Find one democracy in Europe in the period between 100 AD and 1750 AD.

[RandomGuy]

Read again.

You simplified my post(s) and either you did it purposely for whatever reason, or you're a lazy reader and comprehender.

Sure, blame the victim.

tip:

The rest of us can't read your mind. Stop writing like we can.
.

[Ignignokt]

Sure, blame the victim.

tip:

The rest of us can't read your mind. Stop writing like we can.
.

:lol, I didn't know i pointed out a victim. Why need for phsycic powers when i already clarified my position.

Not my fault if you still think this is another red vs blue debate and you're hear to claim scoreboard.

[Ignignokt]

Find one democracy in Europe in the period between 100 AD and 1750 AD.

European democracy can mean forms and not necessarily true democracies since even now, the US is more of Republic than a democracy.

Lets see, the roman republic which held elections for representatives.
Cossack republics of Ukraine iin the middle ages, and the british parliament system which was established by the magna carta.

[Ignignokt]

yawn..cut and paste.

That's great you can qoute, thanx for pointing out that you're disagreeing with me, totally had no clue. You're great at pointing out the obvious, one of your job duties as Forum officer we're all very thankful for.