Review of under and over hyped players

[Pentagruel]

Dear Spurstalk members,

As of late, I have seen a lot of animosity toward certain players, and an exorbitant amount of love to others, who I don't think deserve it.

I wish to address this problem in this post...

First, I would like to address those players who are vastly over-hyped here on Spurstalk...

The first is George Hill...

To begin, he is a solid rookie player. He has shown he can step up to the plate in the beginning of the season when both Manu Ginobili and Tony Paker were injured in the beginning of the season. He played particularly well during this time period. However, he has not shown he can be a good 15 minute fill in for Parker when he is healthy. I would be very content to further develop his skills in the offseason and use him more regularly next season. As we are trying to win a title this season however, I have no problem keeping him on the bench in the meantime.

The second player that I find over-hyped on this board is Roger Mason Jr., a player that I really like and whom I appreciate immensely on yhe Spurs roster. We need not however contantly lobby for minutes for him. He gets plenty, and he usually does his job. He has made many mistakes (almost always his shot selection which makes me want to destroy my computer screen) but makes equally many amazing shots (his 3-point game changing shot against the Bosten Celtics [ill-advised shot]). Despite this amazinf reptile performance, let's not exxagerate his contributions to the team.

Lastly, The most over-hyped members on the Spurs are the D-leaguers. I will lump them into this group (they include Malik Hairston and Pops Mesah-Bonsu mostly). These are D-league players whom only play during garbage time. We shouldn't get so exited about them. I have been pleased with Malik Hairston's play as of late, at the very least on the defensive side. Furthermore, Pops has also impressed me with his energy and willingness to contribute on the little things in Basketball. Despite that, he clearly had his deficiencies [as did Malik] and we shouldn't overreact to a few flashy moves during his short time with the Spurs...
The bottom line is, we don't really need an athltic big; we havent had one for a long time, yet have still won 4 titles. All we need is a big man willing to agree with the Spurs principles and one who understands we have a big three who run the show; and they are only there to augment it.

Now, for the plaers whom are unfairy hated on this board...

The number one player who plays a valuable role on the Spurs yet is hated mercilessly on this board is of course, the one and only, Michael Finley.

Michael Finley is a good defender, despte what many of you folks like to claim. He rarely botches his rotations or leads to any easy baskets for the opposition. Furthermore, he has a solid jumpshot which has become more evident as of late. Sometimes your shot just doesnt fall, which is a shame, but it doesnt mke you useless. The opponent must still account for you which taxes their defense, and you are still present on your defensive side of the ball. I think it's despicable how many people have turned on Finley this season even though he is putting up solid numbers...
As someone said, he is just a role player now, and he fills that job admirably.

The other two players who are under-apreciated are Ime Udoka and Jaque Vaughn. Niether of them are excellent players but they are acceptable backups. The big problem is that they are so rarely used that you can never see what they have to offer. When someone gets only a couple of minutes a game they won't show you anything special; that is something that should be understood. In the Wizards game tonight, Ime had 13 points 3 rebounds, assists and 2 steals (roughly). Thats a solid and versatile line in one of the few games where he has played significant minutes. Even JV had 7 points or so. It was entertaining to see the energy that the subs put in, in their 15 minutes of daylight, and I hope that they get more opportunities in the future. I think they can genuinely aid he Spurs during the rest of the season and the playoffs.

With all that said, I am pleased that our Front Office didnt give up on any of these players to grab a big name out on the free agent market. They have developed all of these players in their system for a reason, and come playoff time I think they will be ready to make a big difference; something that a newly acquired big name wouldnt be able to accomplish.

[Brazil]

agree for Finley too much hate here: he is a solid contributor and he plays decent D. Now for Jaque sorry but I can't see the contribution of him, if he is good to tutor then hire him as assistant coach.

[Pentagruel]

Jaque Vaughn never plays though, so how can people hate him as much as they do? I agree, he doesn't do all that much physically on the team, but its largely due to the lack of minutes he gets.

[Brazil]

I think nobody hates Jaque, apparently he is a good team mate and he seems to be important for the group. Now honnestly it's better for everybody to see him playing just few minutes once in a while.

[Pentagruel]

Well, I see some people on this board refering to him as "Runt", which is utterly ridiculous. I just dislike that kind of attitude.

With that said however, I don't think JV will play a major impact on the playoffs, at least I hope not. But the utterly disparaging remarks on players like Jaque Vaughn and Ime Udoka are just unwarranted. They work hard, and give the production you expect form their caliber of player (not exceptional but not awful).

[dougp]

Well, I see some people on this board refering to him as "Runt", which is utterly ridiculous. I just dislike that kind of attitude.

With that said however, I don't think JV will play a major impact on the playoffs, at least I hope not. But the utterly disparaging remarks on players like Jaque Vaughn and Ime Udoka are just unwarranted. They work hard, and give the production you expect form their caliber of player (not exceptional but not awful).

Welcome to SpursTalk, where thousands of people post their opinions, no matter how retarded they might be. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got them and they all stink.

[senorglory]

Finley gets important rebounds, makes smart passes within the system, and shoots a high percentage from the three, among other contributions, and he's done so every year he's been with the Spurs-- his numbers are nearly identical in each of the seasons he's been with the Spurs.

Here's a chart I made (while avoiding work) for some earlier Finley bashing thread:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/senorglory/FinleySeasonAvg.gif

[Austin_Toros]

1) Any young player on a spurs roster is something to get excited about.

2) Go Finley!

3) Udoka stinks and won't be with the spurs after this season.

[AFBlue]

too long for your first post...next

[AFBlue]

And Malik Hairston is much less "overhyped" than Pops...who was with the team for all of 7 days.

Malik actually has a shot at a long-term future with the Spurs, whereas Pops was 15th roster spot fodder for 2 weeks. Don't lump all D-leaguers into a group, because some of them stand out.

[Jmoney]

You know I like Udoka on the o-side of the ball even though he is somewhat streaky. However look at him on defense he gets lost so much at times I wonder wtf he is doing during practice. I'm with 100% on the d league players getting way to much love. I'm also with you on the way to much hate on Finley. Folks this was an all star player for quite a few years. We have him towards in the end of his career for REALLY CHEAP. He still comes in and gives quality minutes as a 4th 5th option in scoring. While yes he is slower he still does not miss rotations in d much and does a pretty decent job. I'm with you that we need a big man that can rebound block shots and not mess up on D. Rasho filled that job the best since David left town and I still regret we did not keep him. We've tried since then with a number of options and never gotten the results we have really wanted. I love oberto's energy and his ability to be in touch on the o-side with his give and go's with Duncan. However on defense he's not able to contain big men on the paint. This is where KT comes in however KT is getting slower and slower and I don't think we will resign him come time. We've tried Najr and Elson but again none of them have ever been able to fill that gap the way Pop has really wanted.

I think Tiago gets to much love as well. Here's a guy thats staying in Euro till 10-11 due to his contract status oversea's way over hyped. I was hoping in our bid for Sheed or Camby or something we could of thrown him in to sweeten the deal. As it is I'm thinking we will do the same thing we did with Scola and give his rights to another team. *OKC* 2011 any takers?

[Nathan Explosion]

You know that "ill advised" game changing shot by Mason against Boston? Well, blame Pop for that, he's the one that pretty much told Mason to push it and shoot quick.

As for the rest of the post, I didn't read it. It's too damn long, I've been up since 3 am and I have work to do.

[ohmwrecker]

Here's my two cents:
George Hill gets hype because he has exceeded any and all expectations. Nobody had any idea what an athlete this kid was. If he were getting more minutes on a worse team, I have no doubt he would be in the running for ROY. So, give the kid a break.
Roger Mason has stepped in and succeeded in a role previously filled by Brent Barry. So, I think we came out ahead on that one, and he is clutch.
Michael Finley is a streaky shooter, but he plays solid d and is astoundingly quick for an old dude. He also can guard dudes who are bigger than him. In a small ball lineup, Finley can even play the four. He also usually steps up when one of the big three go down and there are many nights when he is the second leading scorer.
Ime Udoka has been a disappointment this year. He is still a good defender, but he makes a lot of mental errors on offense. His jumper has become less reliable too. I think he is one of those guys who needs more minutes to suceed. He is not going to get them here. Not anymore.
Jacque Vaughn is going to get minutes because he is smart, runs the offense and makes very few errors. He is not particularly athletic or a good scorer, but he is a good facilitator. Pop is partial to veterans. I don't know why this still surprises people.
Malik Hairston (or any D-leaguer for that matter), anything we get out of this guy is bonus. I like him. He has a nice looking jumper, mad hops and a good attitude. I would be very surprised if he makes the playoff roster.

[exstatic]

A comment about Mason: what are all these mistakes he's making? He's shooting .424 FG% and .428 3G%. That doesn't seem like bad shot selection to me. They run a lot of really far out P'n'R for him, beyond the three point arc. Just because he comes off the pick and fires it quickly, doesn't make it a bad shot, just a decisive one. When it's time for him to create for others, he does.

Someone else called him a turnover machine in another thread. He gives up 1.28 TOs in 30 minutes per game, compared to the other two guards who handle the ball a lot and are expected to create for themselves and others, Manu at 2.27 in 27 minutes, and Tony at 2.47 in 33 minutes.

About the only thing I'd like him to do more or better is get to the rack, and he's been doing that more lately with Manu out. If he could develop a teardrop like Tony did, and then Manu did, he'd finish a lot more with baskets or and-ones instead of 2 FTs or empty trips. The 'drop would make the defender uncertain if he's going all the way to the rack, or dropping that puppy right over the top. Right now they just follow him all the way in and contest his shot.

We all tend to forget how NBA-inexperienced he really is. This is only his second full season of real playing time.

[MaNu4Tres]

Someone else called him a turnover machine in another thread. He gives up 1.28 TOs in 30 minutes per game, compared to the other two guards who handle the ball a lot and are expected to create for themselves and others, Manu at 2.27 in 27 minutes, and Tony at 2.47 in 33 minutes.


Justifying Mason's turnovers by comparing TO per game to Manu and Tony's doesn't make sense. Manu and Tony usually always have the ball in their hands when they are in the game. Therefore they are more susceptible to turnover the ball over as they are trying to create for others. If your trying to justify how Mason doesn't turn the ball over compare it to Finley who has a similar role. And if you haven't noticed whenever Mason does try to create for others he isn't very efficient at creating either. A lot of the time the opponents get their hands on the ball for either a deflection or a steal for 2 the other way. Especially against defenses who aren't lazy and go on top of the screen.

[mudyez]

masterquestion:

why do we have a french PG who has an american name and a american PG, who has a french name?

...good thread...but what about bonner?

[Nathan Explosion]

Justifying Mason's turnovers by comparing TO per game to Manu and Tony's doesn't make sense. Manu and Tony usually always have the ball in their hands when they are in the game. Therefore they are more susceptible to turnover the ball over as they are trying to create for others. If your trying to justify how Mason doesn't turn the ball over compare it to Finley who has a similar role.

Mason plays the backup PG every now and then, and his turnover rate is still relatively low. Just saying.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

People are going to jump on me for this, but Parker should be on the over-hyped list.

The amount of credit he gets that Ginobili doesn't get is ridiculous. Parker is a sub-par defender and gets the majority of his points off pick and rolls. His passing skills are nothing special and neither is his isolation game.

Ginobili is one of the league's most underrated defenders and plays most of his minutes with bench players, he usually faces the other team's best defender and a lot of the time has no inside presence to take attention away from him. He's also extremely clutch, I could be wrong but I've never seen Parker make the plays Ginobili has in the final minutes of some games.

I know some of the Parker lovers are gonna get extremely mad at this and make some cheap shot about the Suns and the draft lottery because I discounted their beloved Parker, but that's just how I see it.

[Nathan Explosion]

People are going to jump on me for this, but Parker should be on the over-hyped list.

The amount of credit he gets that Ginobili doesn't get is ridiculous. Parker is a sub-par defender and gets the majority of his points off pick and rolls. His passing skills are nothing special and neither is his isolation game.

Ginobili is one of the league's most underrated defenders and plays most of his minutes with bench players, he usually faces the other team's best defender and a lot of the time has no inside presence to take attention away from him. He's also extremely clutch, I could be wrong but I've never seen Parker make the plays Ginobili has in the final minutes of some games.

I know some of the Parker lovers are gonna get extremely mad at this and make some cheap shot about the Suns and the draft lottery because I discounted their beloved Parker, but that's just how I see it.

You had yourself going until that one statement. Gino usually plays with Parker or Duncan. Two of the big 3 play 90% of the time. And Duncan definitely qualifies as an inside presence to take attention away from Gino.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You had yourself going until that one statement. Gino usually plays with Parker or Duncan. Two of the big 3 play 90% of the time. And Duncan definitely qualifies as an inside presence to take attention away from Gino.

Well no shit, to be honest I don't get to watch them very often but whenever they play the Suns they have an annoying end of the 3rd quarter run engineered by Manu w/o Duncan on the floor which usually sticks a fork in the Suns.

Certainly Parker benefits from Duncan's presence a lot more than Manu does.

[Harry Callahan]

Why does the thread degenerate into a Gino vs Parker thing? It's ridiculous. Oh, its a Suns guy stirring it up. Never mind. The Suns would love to have either one of them because they are much better than what Phoenix has right now. And don't give me Steve Nash - he is not long for this league with his health issues and age.

Hill and Mason are playing above expectations. That's why they get a mention. If the 08 draft was held today, the Spurs would have to probably have to draft a good ten spots higher than 26 to get George Hill. Roger Mason has been better here that Magette would have been so far. These guys deserve credit.

[exstatic]

Justifying Mason's turnovers by comparing TO per game to Manu and Tony's doesn't make sense. Manu and Tony usually always have the ball in their hands when they are in the game. Therefore they are more susceptible to turnover the ball over as they are trying to create for others. If your trying to justify how Mason doesn't turn the ball over compare it to Finley who has a similar role. And if you haven't noticed whenever Mason does try to create for others he isn't very efficient at creating either. A lot of the time the opponents get their hands on the ball for either a deflection or a steal for 2 the other way. Especially against defenses who aren't lazy and go on top of the screen.

Finleys' role is nothing like Mason's. He's strictly catch and shoot. He does almost no ball handling, and all season long, has maybe brought the ball up the floor 8-10 times. Mason handles the ball MUCH more, and as stated, is the defacto back up PG now, with George sliding into much more of a SG role with the reserve unit.

[exstatic]

Well no shit, to be honest I don't get to watch them very often but whenever they play the Suns they have an annoying end of the 3rd quarter run engineered by Manu w/o Duncan on the floor which usually sticks a fork in the Suns.

Certainly Parker benefits from Duncan's presence a lot more than Manu does.

Parker averaged like 33/9 without Duncan (and Manu) those three games. Kinda "sticks a fork" in your theory.

Everyone benefits from everyone on this team, but make no mistakes: Parker is a fucking stud. That Finals MVP was not a fluke.

[Nathan Explosion]

Well no shit, to be honest I don't get to watch them very often but whenever they play the Suns they have an annoying end of the 3rd quarter run engineered by Manu w/o Duncan on the floor which usually sticks a fork in the Suns.

Certainly Parker benefits from Duncan's presence a lot more than Manu does.

They both do. Parker is an underrated passer really, although both he and Gino have a bad habit of throw Tim bounce passes in traffic at his knees.

Both have their good and bad suits. Gino's defense has slipped from previous years. He's probably better at getting to the rim at will, and definitely a better 3 point shooter.

I'd trust Parker more on the break though because his speed will almost always get him to the rim and/or the FT line. Also, Parker's speed as well as his mid range jumper can make him unguardable when he's on.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why does the thread degenerate into a Gino vs Parker thing? It's ridiculous. Oh, its a Suns guy stirring it up. Never mind. The Suns would love to have either one of them because they are much better than what Phoenix has right now. And don't give me Steve Nash - he is not long for this league with his health issues and age.

:lol


I called the Suns cheap shot prediction and what do you know, gotta love the bandwagon Spurs fans with < 1000 posts.

And it wasn't a full blown Parker vs. Manu thing, Parker is probably the more important player of the two, but the way some of the people here say Manu is just riding Parker and Duncan's coattail's is completely ridiculous.

And yes, I would like a player on the Suns who brings the intensity and winner's attitude Ginobili does, and I know I wouldn't start a new thread every day about trading him like some people here do.

[HarlemHeat37]

You say this about Finley right now during his hot streak..wait until he's in one of his slumps again..and he's not a good defender in any way..

[jag]

:lol


I called the Suns cheap shot prediction and what do you know, gotta love the bandwagon Spurs fans with < 1000 posts.

And it wasn't a full blown Parker vs. Manu thing, Parker is probably the more important player of the two, but the way some of the people here say Manu is just riding Parker and Duncan's coattail's is completely ridiculous.

And yes, I would like a player on the Suns who brings the intensity and winner's attitude Ginobili does, and I know I wouldn't start a new thread every day about trading him like some people here do.

I'm not sure where you get this from...70% of this board hugs Manu's nuts and pisses all over Tony.

[MaNu4Tres]

Finleys' role is nothing like Mason's. He's strictly catch and shoot. He does almost no ball handling, and all season long, has maybe brought the ball up the floor 8-10 times. Mason handles the ball MUCH more, and as stated, is the defacto back up PG now, with George sliding into much more of a SG role with the reserve unit.

I said Mason has a more similar role to Finley. I didn't say he has the EXACT role. And yes Mason does have a more similar role to Finley more so than the role of Manu and Tony creating just about every other play.

[MaNu4Tres]

Finleys' role is nothing like Mason's. He's strictly catch and shoot. He does almost no ball handling, and all season long, has maybe brought the ball up the floor 8-10 times. Mason handles the ball MUCH more, and as stated, is the defacto back up PG now, with George sliding into much more of a SG role with the reserve unit.

And another thing. Finley's role is like Mason's. About 70 percent of Mason's minutes (as of the past 3-4 games) have been catch and shoot with the occasional one or two dribble pull up off a screen IF the defense is tired/lazy and goes under the screen. But when its time for war and we have all our weapons locked and loaded, Mason's role will be like Finley's. Which is to play off Tony Manu and Tim's play making ability, whether its catch and shoot/ pump fake one dribble or two dribble pull ups and that role is and will continue to be Masons, except now Mason may bring the ball up the court 12 minutes a game. And bringing the ball up the court doesn't necessarily automatically mean Masons role is to be the creator. Ask Jacque Vaughn.

[sprrs]

but the way some of the people here say Manu is just riding Parker and Duncan's coattail's is completely ridiculous.


Who's ever said that? Tony gets more than his fair share of hate in here, and I've only ever seen maybe two or three posters bash Manu.

[Chomag]

I don't hate Finley. Actualy he was my favorite nba player duiring his prime.

He is just way overplayed IMO. At this stage in his career he should be getting about 20 minutes a game maybe fewer on nights his shot is off but we all know that the all powerfull man-crush just wont let that happen.

[ILoveOranges]

I know some of the Parker lovers are gonna get extremely mad at this and make some cheap shot about the Suns and the draft lottery because I discounted their beloved Parker, but that's just how I see it.

This is a random note, but I've noticed this happening a lot. There are several Suns or Mavs fans that post on the board, and even if they make a legitimate point regarding the topic, there are those who randomly take shots at their teams. It's extremely juvenile, and I can't really find the pleasure they get out of it.

[timtonymanu]

Roger Mason Jr gets alot of hype because he helped the Spurs get 4 victories: against the Clippers, Suns, Lakers, and Celtics. The Spurs could easily be 37-24 if Mason didnt make the big shot. He's been alot better than what we expected.

Same goes for Hill. When the Spurs drafted him, alot of people were disappointed because nobody knew who he was. Then he had a horrendous summer league. Suddenly in the preseason/season Hill greatly improved his game and actually took Parker's place when Parker was hurt. Just like Mason, Hill has been alot better than anyone expected.

Malik Hairston, i dont see why this guy shouldn't get hype. This was the guy that was picked below Desmon Farmer at the beginning of the season. Malik played his ass of in the D-League and has shown potential in the NBA. He already looks better than Ime. As for Pops, he was able to rebound. That's all. But he's gone already.

Michael Finley, he is not always hated sometimes. When he's hot, no one complains. When he's off, people complain. My take on why people dislike him is that he plays way too much minutes even when he's useless. He really shouldn't get more playing time than Bowen or Mason but he does. He has been a liability several games this year. But other games he's pretty good.

Ime Udoka, there's a reason why he's underhyped. he sucks. He showed some promise last year, but this year he sucks. He makes alot of mistakes and cant even shoot anymore unless it's a scrub lineup. Alot of people felt that he could have been better this year, but he hasnt been.

Jacque Vaughn, now i think he's underhyped. He has mentored George Hill and when he plays, he tries his best. People on here don't give Vaughn enough credit. However I've noticed there has been less bitching about Vaughn on this site compared to the offseason.

[MaNu4Tres]

Udoka looking more confident. Kind of surprising.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Who's ever said that? Tony gets more than his fair share of hate in here, and I've only ever seen maybe two or three posters bash Manu.

I know Ducks, SequSpur, that dude that wants Manu traded for Captain Jackson, and a lot of the Parker lovers jizz themselves every time Manu has a bad game because they can make a "trade manu he's worthless" thread.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This is a random note, but I've noticed this happening a lot. There are several Suns or Mavs fans that post on the board, and even if they make a legitimate point regarding the topic, there are those who randomly take shots at their teams. It's extremely juvenile, and I can't really find the pleasure they get out of it.

Eh whatever I really don't care about it at this point since almost all of the Spurs fans don't do it and a few of them tell the person that does make the random cheap shot that it was uncalled for and stupid. If someone thinks responding with "4 > 0" is clever then I feel bad for them because it means they're not the sharpest tool int he shed.

[erikuff]

I'm gonna have to agree with a lot of this.
Hill is playing good defense this whole season, but his offense has slumped around December, quite possibly because of Parker being back to normal or whatever.
Mason has done a great job as our top shooter. 4 game-winners, and a whole bunch of other clutch shots. His defense isn't bad and he's playing the Pg position alright.
Hairston, Mahinmi, & Pops are really nothing to be excited at all about. People forget, they don't play.
Kurt is a solid bench player and I have absolutely no problems with him and I don't see why people bash him at all.