just sad.....USA=the Roman Empire.....just a matter of time.

[cool hand]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html

[RandomGuy]

... and random violence = roman empire now?

I don't see it.

[Ignignokt]

america does not condone this act. I see where you're coming from as far as the christian killling angle, but america is the foremost defender of religous freedom.\

now, if the killer survived, i wonder if their going to charge a hate crime. even though i hate hate crime laws, i just want to see if the US courts are consistent with the philosophy behind that law.

[CubanMustGo]

Yeah, you know when they shot that priest of Jupiter it was all over for the Romans.

[LockBeard]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6299436.html

[xeromass]

I don't see where any of you two is going

timeline was approximately such:

Roman empire is the force = they nail Jesus

everything goes down the drain = Christianity is official religion

[boutons_]

The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, the public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living onpublic assistance.

Cicero - 55 B.C.

================

The fall of the Roman Empire ushered in the Dark Ages where the Church was amalgamated with the royalty for a 1000 years, both conspiring to enrich themselves while taxing and oppressing the poor.

When the Church was finally diminished in power, the Enlightenment ensued, rationality, science blossomed, civilization advanced.

Now in the USA, the "Christian" mullahs, false prophets every one, claiming to be speaking for, to be revealed to directly by God, always enriching themselves while hoodwinking and shaking down the gullible dumbfucks, want to usher in a new Dark Ages where Bilblical fairy tales supplant science and reason.

[temujin]

The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, the public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living onpublic assistance.

Cicero - 55 B.C.

================

The fall of the Roman Empire ushered in the Dark Ages where the Church was amalgamated with the royalty for a 1000 years, both conspiring to enrich themselves while taxing and oppressing the poor.

When the Church was finally diminished in power, the Enlightenment ensued, rationality, science blossomed, civilization advanced.

Now in the USA, the "Christian" mullahs, false prophets every one, claiming to be speaking for, to be revealed to directly by God, always enriching themselves while hoodwinking and shaking down the gullible dumbfucks, want to usher in a new Dark Ages where Bilblical fairy tales supplant science and reason.





Cicero was the pen and mouth of the ultraconservative senators, whose ridicolous wealth relied on the oppression of millions of slaves.

He was also the slaughterer of a true reformer and patriot, Catilina.

Cicero should be regarded by history as a mediocre writer, a worst politician and a war criminal.

[PixelPusher]

This doesn't really have anything to do any "USA=The Roman Empire" analogy either, but based on the article in the OP, this is the right thread.



Gunman: 'If You're Not A Christian You're Going To Die' (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18438582/detail.html#-)
Authorities: Eldora Gunman Targeted Non-Christians

POSTED: 10:37 am MST January 8, 2009
UPDATED: 8:32 am MST January 9, 2009
BOULDER, Colo. -- A 24-year-old ski lift operator who fatally shot the general manager of the Eldora ski area was determined to kill co-workers who weren't Christian, according to court records obtained Thursday.

The documents, filed Wednesday in Boulder District Court, said witnesses told authorities that Derik Bonestroo walked into a building at work, fired a gun into the ceiling and said: "If you're not Christian, you're going to die."

General manager Brian Mahon was shot and killed Dec. 30 at the ski area west of Nederland, Colo., in Boulder County.

Witnesses said when Bonestroo asked Mahon's religion, Mahon said "Catholic" and Bonestroo shot him twice: in the chest and head. Mahon is believed to have died instantly. Other employees ran out the back door of the ski employee's meeting area and fled into the woods, describing an additional four to five shots being fired.

Boonestroo fled the ski area in his car and then was intercepted and chased by a Boulder sheriff's deputy who happened to be in nearby Nederland when the 911 call came in. Boonestroo fired at the deputy's vehicle, hitting it several times, and finally pulled over on Highway 119 and began firing out his driver's side window.

The deputy, a Boulder SWAT officer, returned fire after taking cover behind his vehicle. Authorities say Bonestroo was hit multiple times by the deputy's assault rifle before he fatally shot himself while sitting in his car, a few miles from the ski area.

Chris Fiegel, a sheriff's detective, interviewed employees who were at the ski area's pump house for a staff meeting. He also interviewed other area residents who were confronted by Bonestroo.

Bonestroo's "demeanor and tactical style clothing" indicated that he planned the showdown, according to court documents.

Investigators said Bonestroo had a "drop-down magazine holster" strapped to his left thigh and a "drop-down gun holster" on his right thigh. They said he was clutching a Glock semiautomatic handgun in his right hand.

Among the list of items confiscated from Bonestroo's apartment were medication and a dead cat that was stabbed several times, Pelle said. The cat was believed to be Bonestroo's pet.

Interviews with friends and family member indicated Bonestroo recently had been suffering "significant emotional distress," but Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle said privacy laws prohibit him from discussing details of Bonestroo's mental state.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, the public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living onpublic assistance.

Cicero - 55 B.C.

================

The fall of the Roman Empire ushered in the Dark Ages where the Church was amalgamated with the royalty for a 1000 years, both conspiring to enrich themselves while taxing and oppressing the poor.

When the Church was finally diminished in power, the Enlightenment ensued, rationality, science blossomed, civilization advanced.

Now in the USA, the "Christian" mullahs, false prophets every one, claiming to be speaking for, to be revealed to directly by God, always enriching themselves while hoodwinking and shaking down the gullible dumbfucks, want to usher in a new Dark Ages where Bilblical fairy tales supplant science and reason.



That's such bullshit. Do you still really believe the Middle Ages were "Dark Ages?"

The Catholic Church made Northern Europe arable on a massive scale. It created and propagated the modern university system throughout western Europe. It preserved the sum total of Western scholarship from Barbarian invasions and the history of the west, including mathematical and scientific development is thanks in a large part to the Church. The Catholic Church was at the forefront of the Enlightenment.

Read some history that's not from a textbook and was written in the last 15 years.

[MiamiHeat]

the USA was founded and based on roman empire architecture and ideals, government was inspired by roman's govt... etc..

so what.

[ratm1221]

People are shot everyday. It's terrible. But I don't see why I should feel worse about a guy being shot just because he carries a book around and believes in fairy tales.

If you really were a believer, you would be happy for him, and he would feel sorry for you not being the one shot. He's in paradise now and you are stuck here in this shit hole. I don't see why christians don't pray to be accidentally hit by a bus or fall off a building, since they think the better life awaits them. Instead, they cling to life just as much as the non-believers and mourn death instead of celebrate it.

I don't understand someone calling them self a believer and being afraid of death at the same time. Want to know a true believer? Look at these suicide bombers. You telling me you believe more than they do?

[Cry Havoc]

If you really were a believer, you would be happy for him, and he would feel sorry for you not being the one shot.

There is an aspect of Christianity that embraces death, in the sense that Christians do believe he's moved on to a better place. But you offer an extremely narrow-minded point of view to think that his death should be a celebration. It's sudden, and devastating. He's part of a community that depends on him for his contributions, and they are suddenly no longer there. I haven't read much about the pastor, but he probably has a wife and children that are used to his love and support, and that's been ripped from them.

The shooter apparently suffered from Lyme disease stemming from a tick bite, so yes, i do feel bad for him, as it seems that he had little control over his actions.


He's in paradise now and you are stuck here in this shit hole. I don't see why christians don't pray to be accidentally hit by a bus or fall off a building, since they think the better life awaits them. Instead, they cling to life just as much as the non-believers and mourn death instead of celebrate it.

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting these ideas from. Christians (and members of almost every faith, to my knowledge) believe that they were put here for a reason. Some faiths think that this life is just part of a chain of lives, but many Christians I know feel that they serve a purpose while here on this Earth. Your statement about "clinging" to life is completely without merit -- where in this article do you get the idea that the pastor was "clinging" to life? Because he was living it and presumably happy where he was? There's a huge difference between the two.


I don't understand someone calling them self a believer and being afraid of death at the same time. Want to know a true believer? Look at these suicide bombers. You telling me you believe more than they do?

Again, I think you are demonstrating a relative lack of experience about Christianity, at least from my perspective. First of all, there's nothing "un-Christian" about being frightened by death. That's one of the most natural, primal human reactions, and even a deep faith does not alter that on some level. I must point out that I know many individuals who are not afraid of death. I have even talked about this fact with some of my friends, who agree that it does feel weird as a Christian to feel the shift from being so afraid of death to gradually incorporating it into your ability to move past this place. Lastly, of course there are going to be individuals within any movement, political, faith-based, or scientific, that are still very prone to certain fears and emotions. It's a natural reaction, one that's extremely difficult to overcome for some. For you to reflect that upon their faith is a little extreme.

I hope you choose your words a little more carefully in the future, because I do not think you are speaking from a position of experience or knowledge in this situation.

[ratm1221]

There is an aspect of Christianity that embraces death, in the sense that Christians do believe he's moved on to a better place. But you offer an extremely narrow-minded point of view to think that his death should be a celebration. It's sudden, and devastating. He's part of a community that depends on him for his contributions, and they are suddenly no longer there. I haven't read much about the pastor, but he probably has a wife and children that are used to his love and support, and that's been ripped from them.

The shooter apparently suffered from Lyme disease stemming from a tick bite, so yes, i do feel bad for him, as it seems that he had little control over his actions.



I'm not entirely sure where you are getting these ideas from. Christians (and members of almost every faith, to my knowledge) believe that they were put here for a reason. Some faiths think that this life is just part of a chain of lives, but many Christians I know feel that they serve a purpose while here on this Earth. Your statement about "clinging" to life is completely without merit -- where in this article do you get the idea that the pastor was "clinging" to life? Because he was living it and presumably happy where he was? There's a huge difference between the two.



Again, I think you are demonstrating a relative lack of experience about Christianity, at least from my perspective. First of all, there's nothing "un-Christian" about being frightened by death. That's one of the most natural, primal human reactions, and even a deep faith does not alter that on some level. I must point out that I know many individuals who are not afraid of death. I have even talked about this fact with some of my friends, who agree that it does feel weird as a Christian to feel the shift from being so afraid of death to gradually incorporating it into your ability to move past this place. Lastly, of course there are going to be individuals within any movement, political, faith-based, or scientific, that are still very prone to certain fears and emotions. It's a natural reaction, one that's extremely difficult to overcome for some. For you to reflect that upon their faith is a little extreme.

I hope you choose your words a little more carefully in the future, because I do not think you are speaking from a position of experience or knowledge in this situation.

I was being facetious and playing on the stereotypes of the Christian religion. Have a sense of humor. The main point I was trying to make before I got side tracked was that this pastor's death isn't any more tragic than the bum that sleeps on the side of the road that got shot last week in Harlem. That being said...

You speak of Christianity like it's an exact science and it's not. I've taken elective college courses on religion, all religions, so I think I went to enough lengths and earned the right to form my own opinion about it. There are thousands upon thousands of types of Christianity, so you are very arrogant to say that you, or even you and a group of your buddies, speak for the long list of denominations. What's funny to me is that Christians (in general) are the most narrow minded individuals on the planet, but they are quick to call others narrow minded who don't believe the same things they do.

[Extra Stout]

You speak of Christianity like it's an exact science and it's not. I've taken elective college courses on religion, all religions, so I think I went to enough lengths and earned the right to form my own opinion about it. There are thousands upon thousands of types of Christianity, so you are very arrogant to say that you, or even you and a group of your buddies, speak for the long list of denominations. What's funny to me is that Christians (in general) are the most narrow minded individuals on the planet, but they are quick to call others narrow minded who don't believe the same things they do.
You know, I once took an elective college course in British history, so I think I'm entitled to lecture British people about the experience of being British.

And if any British person calls me out for being a presumptuous dilletante, I can just call him arrogant since there are millions of British people and he can't speak for them all. I mean, yeah, he might live in Britain and, you know, regularly interact with actual Britons from many different parts of British society over a period of many years, and therefore have some insight into what they do and do not have in common with one another, but I took a college course, which naturally makes me the expert.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Never debate ES on religion. He is the creme de la creme of theology students and will bload you on almost every possible front.

[Winehole23]

Never debate ES on religion. He is the creme de la creme of theology students and will bload you on almost every possible front.http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chode Bload (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chode)

[ratm1221]

You know, I once took an elective college course in British history, so I think I'm entitled to lecture British people about the experience of being British.

And if any British person calls me out for being a presumptuous dilletante, I can just call him arrogant since there are millions of British people and he can't speak for them all. I mean, yeah, he might live in Britain and, you know, regularly interact with actual Britons from many different parts of British society over a period of many years, and therefore have some insight into what they do and do not have in common with one another, but I took a college course, which naturally makes me the expert.

Who's lecturing? If I wanted to lecture, I'd tell you your god and your religion is the biggest con in history; and that you live by words, not written by a god, but written by men that lived in a time when simple events that couldn't yet be explained were labeled as magic or miracles.

[jack sommerset]

We have a ocean that protects us and nuclear bombs. I don't think so. If anything the planet will blow up.

[Extra Stout]

Who's lecturing? If I wanted to lecture, I'd tell you your god and your religion is the biggest con in history; and that you live by words, not written by a god, but written by men that lived in a time when simple events that couldn't yet be explained were labeled as magic or miracles.
Well I certainly wouldn't want to deprive you of your prerogative to make your views so winsome. Between your mocking the murder of a pastor and then using it as a platform for bashing Christianity, I'm sure many people have been convinced of the moral superiority of your worldview!

[ratm1221]

Well I certainly wouldn't want to deprive you of your prerogative to make your views so winsome. Between your mocking the murder of a pastor and then using it as a platform for bashing Christianity, I'm sure many people have been convinced of the moral superiority of your worldview!

Mocking the death of a pastor? You're reaching. I'm simply pointing out that people are killed everyday by gun violence. It doesn't matter if it's a 60 year old pastor or a 30 year old janitor.

You are a Christian, so I guess you can place more value on one persons life over another. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

So you are saying someone is mocking the death of a pastor because they don't give it more significance over the thousands of other murders that take place every day? That's an f'ed up point of view...

[Extra Stout]

Most reasonable people would regard this as mocking:


People are shot everyday. It's terrible. But I don't see why I should feel worse about a guy being shot just because he carries a book around and believes in fairy tales.

Nobody asked you to feel worse about it. Nobody said that one human life is more valuable than another.

It is unusual for pastors to be shot to death in the middle of their sermons, and rather shocking and upsetting for those in attendance. The infrequency with which people walk into churches and kill pastors makes the event newsworthy, though that same infrequency rather belies cool hand's paranoia.

You, meanwhile, took it as an opportunity to bash the victim for his religious beliefs. Most reasonable people would therefore take you to be behaving as a hateful bigot. No matter what word games you try to play hereafter, you look like the stereotypical sneering anti-theist who has an axe to grind, rather than the level-headed rationalist you probably imagine yourself to be.

[Shaolin-Style]

I thought this was going to be an interesting post but I guess I was fooling myself from the beginning.

Really sad and it's too bad it couldn't have been those westboro crazies instead.

[ratm1221]

People die every day and no one even turns their head. But a pastor is murdered and we are supposed to stop and boo-hoo all day long and write 5,000 news articles about it. This country has gone insane.

Google News: Keyword: Fred Winters:
Results 1 – 10 of 5,904 for Fred Winters. (0.26 seconds)

[LnGrrrR]

Most reasonable people would regard this as mocking:



Nobody asked you to feel worse about it. Nobody said that one human life is more valuable than another.

It is unusual for pastors to be shot to death in the middle of their sermons, and rather shocking and upsetting for those in attendance. The infrequency with which people walk into churches and kill pastors makes the event newsworthy, though that same infrequency rather belies cool hand's paranoia.

You, meanwhile, took it as an opportunity to bash the victim for his religious beliefs. Most reasonable people would therefore take you to be behaving as a hateful bigot. No matter what word games you try to play hereafter, you look like the stereotypical sneering anti-theist who has an axe to grind, rather than the level-headed rationalist you probably imagine yourself to be.

Good points. +1

[ratm1221]

Most reasonable people would regard this as mocking:



Nobody asked you to feel worse about it. Nobody said that one human life is more valuable than another.

It is unusual for pastors to be shot to death in the middle of their sermons, and rather shocking and upsetting for those in attendance. The infrequency with which people walk into churches and kill pastors makes the event newsworthy, though that same infrequency rather belies cool hand's paranoia.

You, meanwhile, took it as an opportunity to bash the victim for his religious beliefs. Most reasonable people would therefore take you to be behaving as a hateful bigot. No matter what word games you try to play hereafter, you look like the stereotypical sneering anti-theist who has an axe to grind, rather than the level-headed rationalist you probably imagine yourself to be.

If you can't take someone mocking something, I think you are in the wrong place buddy. That's all I see here at spurstalk, so you can get down from your soapbox. Mission accomplished. You can go one more day as the tough guy that tells people off on message boards. Save the effort for something else.

[Extra Stout]

If you can't take someone mocking something, I think you are in the wrong place buddy. That's all I see here at spurstalk, so you can get down from your soapbox. Mission accomplished. You can go one more day as the tough guy that tells people off on message boards. Save the effort for something else.
You hate Christians and hate it that people care if one is murdered. You try to dress up your hate as "reason," but you can't hide your true colors. Who needs a soapbox?


People die every day and no one even turns their head. But a pastor is murdered and we are supposed to stop and boo-hoo all day long and write 5,000 news articles about it. This country has gone insane.
This is pretty much the same as saying,


People die every day and no one even turns their head. But a black man is murdered and we are supposed to stop and boo-hoo all day long and write 5,000 news articles about it. This country has gone insane.
Just so we're clear what kind of person you are.

[ratm1221]

Just so everyone knows...

Extra Stout = internet tough guy

...just ask him.

[E20]

lol I wouldn't get into an argument with ES. He has his ways.

[Nbadan]

+1 Good stuff...

[Nbadan]

...by the way, this would be more like Rome if the Serbians, Germanic tribes and every other emerging civilization (market) had invested a nice chunk of their kids future into Rome....

[ratm1221]

A stupid thread deserves stupid posts. This thread wasn't used as sympathy for the victim, but as an example for some kind of conspiracy theory. Apparently, someone with a disease that deteriorates your nervous system kills a pastor and somehow that equates to "everyone is out to get/kill the Christians." As the title of the thread says ...just sad.

[Extra Stout]

...by the way, this would be more like Rome if the Serbians, Germanic tribes and every other emerging civilization (market) had invested a nice chunk of their kids future into Rome....
The USA is like the Roman Empire in reverse -- a bunch of Goths and Celts freaking out about all the Latins who are coming in.

[ratm1221]

People die every day and no one even turns their head. But a black man is murdered and we are supposed to stop and boo-hoo all day long and write 5,000 news articles about it. This country has gone insane.



Just so we're clear what kind of person you are.

From what I got from the story, this wasn't a hate crime. Not all the details are available yet, but so far it just sounds like a man with a gun suffering from a nervous disease. Does that excuse it? No. But does it make it a hate crime because he happened to kill a Christian? I think you are a little paranoid. Most people don't hate Christians. They just want them to stop trying to dictate how everyone else should live. I know not all Christians do that, but a good number do.

[smeagol]

Just so everyone knows...

Extra Stout = internet tough guy

...just ask him.

Off-base comment of the day :tu

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think "just sad" is the actual thread title and the rest is an aside from a crazed-mind.

[Extra Stout]

From what I got from the story, this wasn't a hate crime. Not all the details are available yet, but so far it just sounds like a man with a gun suffering from a nervous disease. Does that excuse it? No. But does it make it a hate crime because he happened to kill a Christian? I think you are a little paranoid. Most people don't hate Christians. They just want them to stop trying to dictate how everyone else should live. I know not all Christians do that, but a good number do.
Strawman. I never claimed it was a hate crime. cool hand is the one screaming about Roman oppression. Everyone knows he's crazy.

[velik_m]

The USA is like the Roman Empire in reverse -- a bunch of Goths and Celts freaking out about all the Latins who are coming in.

:lol

[PixelPusher]

The USA is like the Roman Empire in reverse -- a bunch of Goths and Celts freaking out about all the Latins who are coming in.

:lobt2: