View Full Version : most Underrated team ever- '95 Rockets
no one EVER talks about this team but i believe they could have beat any team, ever. any laker team, bulls team, spurs team, celtics team.
1. they finished UNDER 50 games for the 6th seed, the lowest seed to ever win a title. this is because they got Drexeler before the deadline and hit their stride, plus they didnt give a rats ass about the regular season.
2. they were the most Clutch team EVER. this is when the 'clutch city' thing came about. ive neevr seen a team with so many guys who would kill in the 4th quarter, last second plays, huge 3-pointers, etc. there has never been a Clutch team like this. (a young Horry, a young cassell, Olajuwon at his peak, clyde drexeler and kenny smith, mario elie, all hit huge clutch shots)
3. when facing elimination, NONE WERE BETTER. there were so many times they should have lost, they were down 2-1 first round against Utah (best of 5 back then), they came back (without HC advantage) and won.
then they were down 3-1 against a Suns team that made the Finals, came back from 3-1 (without HC advantage) to win the series
4. the teams they beat were very quality teams; they beat the stockton-malone Jazz (a team that made finals 2 times) on the road, the Barkley-KJ Suns (also a Finals team) on the road, the Robinson Spurs with best record in the league and MVP (on the road), and SWEPT the HEAVILY FAVORED Shaq-Hardaway magic in the finals (wothout HC advantage)
5. Hakeem was the best center ever, crushing karl malone, charles barkley, MVP david robinson, and a young athletic Shaq along them way, having crushed Ewing the year before.
they had a short run, but if any team in history were to have met that Rockets team that year, they would have got beat.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:29 PM
no one EVER talks about this team but i believe they could have ebat any team, ever. any laker team, bulls team, spurs team, celtics team.
1. they finished UNDER 50 games for the 6th seed, the lowest seed to ever win a title. this is because they got Drexeler before the deadline and hit their stride, plus they didnt give a rats ass about the regular season.
2. they were the most Clutch team EVER. this is when the 'clutch city' thing came about. ive neevr seen a team with so many guys who would kill in the 4th quarter, last second plays, huge 3-pointers, etc. there has never been a Clutch team like this. (a young Horry, a young cassell, Olajuwon at his peak, clyde drexeler and kenny smith, mario elie, all hit huge clutch shots)
3. when facing elimination, NONE WERE BETTER. there were so many times they should have lost, they were down 2-1 first round against Utah (best of 5 back then), they came back (without HC advantage) and won.
then they were down 3-1 against a Suns team that made the Finals, came back from 3-1 (without HC advantage) to win the series
4. the teams they beat were very quality teams; they beat the stockton-malone Jazz (a team that made finals 2 times) on the road, the Barkley-KJ Suns (also a Finals team) on the road, the Robinson Spurs with best record in the league and MVP (on the road), and SWEPT the HEAVILY FAVORED Shaq-Hardaway magic in the finals (wothout HC advantage)
5. Hakeem was the best center ever, crushing karl malone, charles barkley, MVP david robinson, and a young athletic Shaq along them way, having crushed Ewing the year before.
they had a short run, but if any team in history were to have met that Rockets team that year, they would have got beat.
http://buffetoblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/poop.jpg
They would have been owned by the '95-'96 Bulls...period
gaKNOW!blee
03-10-2009, 07:29 PM
Bullshit.
I can think of a ton of Laker and MJ teams that wouldve beat them. Most underrated is a lot different than best ever which you are implying at the end of the thread.
And Hakeem is not the best center ever.
IronMexican
03-10-2009, 07:30 PM
2001,88,72. All Lakers teams that would have beat them.
yea i agree with this post..
TOUGHEST PATH TO THE FINALS EVER.
4 50+ win teams.
and to the poster above ^^ Nobody on the bulls could guard Hakeem so we will never know. His offensive arsenal was just aunbelievable not to mention he was close the best defensive player in the NBA
mavs>spurs2
03-10-2009, 07:32 PM
Bullshit.
I can think of a ton of Laker and MJ teams that wouldve beat them. Most underrated is a lot different than best ever which you are implying at the end of the thread.
And Hakeem is not the best center ever.
It's debatable that he is. Name a center that he didn't demolish head to head.
2001,88,72. All Lakers teams that would have beat them.
LOL bullshit. Shaq was playing like a monster when Hakeem swept him, what makes you think shaq would have stood a chance later? Yea kobe bryant is amazing but you're forgetting about clyde drexler a top SG of all time.
HAKEEM OLAJUWON 72 39.6 798-1,545 51.65 75.61 18.75 775 10.76 3.54 1.85 3.36 27.85
CLYDE DREXLER 35 37.1 266-526 50.57 80.93 35.71 246 7.03 4.40 1.77 0.66 21.40
VERNON MAXWELL 64 31.8 306-777 39.38 68.75 32.43 164 2.56 4.28 1.17 0.20 13.34
OTIS THORPE 36 33.0 206-366 56.28 52.76 0.00 322 8.94 1.61 0.61 0.36 13.31
KENNY SMITH 81 25.1 287-593 48.40 85.14 42.90 155 1.91 3.99 0.88 0.12 10.40
ROBERT HORRY 64 32.4 240-537 44.69 76.11 37.89 324 5.06 3.38 1.47 1.19 10.19
SAM CASSELL 82 23.0 253-593 42.66 84.25 32.98 211 2.57 4.94 1.15 0.17 9.55
MARIO ELIE 81 23.4 243-487 49.90 84.21 39.80 196 2.42 2.33 0.80 0.15 8.77
CARL HERRERA 61 21.8 171-327 52.29 62.39 0.00 278 4.56 0.72 0.66 0.62 6.80
CHUCKY BROWN 41 19.9 105-174 60.34 61.29 33.33 189 4.61 0.73 0.27 0.34 6.07
PETE CHILCUTT 68 19.8 146-328 44.51 73.81 40.70 317 4.66 0.97 0.37 0.63 5.26
TRACY MURRAY 25 8.1 32-80 40.00 62.50 42.22 22 0.88 0.20 0.28 0.12 3.52
SCOTT BROOKS 28 6.6 35-65 53.85 85.71 47.06 13 0.46 0.79 0.29 0.04 3.43
TIM BREAUX 42 8.1 45-121 37.19 65.31 24.00 34 0.81 0.36 0.26 0.10 3.05
ZAN TABAK 37 4.9 24-53 45.28 61.36 0.00 57 1.54 0.11 0.05 0.19 2.03
CHARLES JONES 3 12.0 1-3 33.33 50.00 -- 7 2.33 0.00 0.00 0.33 1.00
ADRIAN CALDWELL 7 4.3 1-4 25.00 50.00 -- 10 1.43 0.00 0.14
and the 2001 lakers don't get horry in that series, the rockets do , the team that DRAFTED him! :toast
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:34 PM
It's debatable that he is. Name a center that he didn't demolish head to head.
Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell. Sorry...Hakeem is great, and probably falls right below these three...but he's not better than them...no way.
IronMexican
03-10-2009, 07:34 PM
LOL bullshit. Shaq was playing like a monster when Hakeem swept him, what makes you think shaq would have stood a chance later? Yea kobe bryant is amazing but you're forgetting about clyde drexler
Shaq was at his best from 2000-2002. And Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, be real here.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:37 PM
LOL bullshit. Shaq was playing like a monster when Hakeem swept him, what makes you think shaq would have stood a chance later? Yea kobe bryant is amazing but you're forgetting about clyde drexler
Hey man..I don't mean to knock those '95 Rockets, hell..they took out my Spurs in what looked like was going to be our first title...but with Jordan on the opposite side...you weren't going to win. No way. And Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. The '95-'96 Bulls would have beaten the '95 Rockets in 5 games....maybe 6, if the Rockets played perfect ball.
Shaq was at his best from 2000-2002. And Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, be real here.
thats debatable. He was playing better because he was aside Kobe, but he was not a better player. That rockets team was built solid from head to toe just look at the roster. Big names like Otis Thorpe who was an all star, sam cassel, and Vernon Maxwell who shut Jordan down on a n number of occasions
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:38 PM
Shaq was at his best from 2000-2002. And Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, be real here.
You must have been to young to watch Clyde play. With the rules the way they are now Clyde would be Jordan in todays' league.
Hey man..I don't mean to knock those '95 Rockets, hell..they took out my Spurs in what looked like was going to be our first title...but with Jordan on the opposite side...you weren't going to win. No way. And Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. The '95-'96 Bulls would have beaten the '95 Rockets in 5 games....maybe 6, if the Rockets played perfect ball.
Yea that SPECIFIC bulls team would have given the rockets a lot of fits, but due to their record, ill say Bulls in 7.
You must have been to young to watch Clyde play. With the rules the way they are now Clyde would be Jordan in todays' league.
Exactly, it used to be a Jordan vs Drexler thing like it is Lebron vs Kobe.
Jordan just outplayed him in the finals and it was put to rest. But he was considered the 2nd best SG
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:39 PM
Hey man..I don't mean to knock those '95 Rockets, hell..they took out my Spurs in what looked like was going to be our first title...but with Jordan on the opposite side...you weren't going to win. No way. And Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. The '95-'96 Bulls would have beaten the '95 Rockets in 5 games....maybe 6, if the Rockets played perfect ball.
How does anyone know these things?
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 07:39 PM
It was not until Jordan retired the Rockets won and then Jordan came back and they were no where to be found.
It was not until Jordan retired the Rockets won and then Jordan came back and they were no whree to be found.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? They play in a diff conference! The bulls aren't in the rockets path to the finals fake rockets fan
mavs>spurs2
03-10-2009, 07:40 PM
Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell. Sorry...Hakeem is great, and probably falls right below these three...but he's not better than them...no way.
Russell and Wilt were from a different time, the game has progressed so far today that it's no longer even comparable. Jabbar maybe, though, but I still like Hakeem simply because he dominated both sides of the ball like never before seen. Only Hakeem could run down a guard on the fast break and block his shot, then dribble back down the court and score through traffic.
IronMexican
03-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, get real with this. Hakeem and Shaq are toe-to-toe right with each other, imo. I think that 2001 Lakers' team best was better than that Rocket teams best.
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:41 PM
What the hell does that have to do with anything? They play in a diff conference!
Thank you.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Yea that SPECIFIC bulls team would have given the rockets a lot of fits, but do to there record, ill say Bulls in 7.
Maybe...after all, you can't underestimate the heart of a champion...but those Bulls were just too damn good. Best team in history.
Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper (when he was good), Steve Kerr (when he was young), Toni Kukoc (when he was young and good). Just too damn good.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:44 PM
What the hell does that have to do with anything? They play in a diff conference! The bulls aren't in the rockets path to the finals fake rockets fan
Believe me..I'm the last guy who's going to stand up for jack, but the OP said they could beat any team of any time, so what he's saying kind of makes sense.
Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, get real with this. Hakeem and Shaq are toe-to-toe right with each other, imo. I think that 2001 Lakers' team best was better than that Rocket teams best.
of course Clyde wasn't as good as Kobe is, but he was VERY close.
You are failing to understand that rocket's team was assembled in the form of a monster. Go look at all the names i boldened.
And you can't include Robert Horry on that lakers team, he played his best ball in houston.
They had Terrific Pgs in Kenny Smith and Sam Cassel
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 07:44 PM
What the hell does that have to do with anything? They play in a diff conference! The bulls aren't in the rockets path to the finals fake rockets fan
It means it was a free for all when Jordan retired and the Rockets had two good years in his absence. This site makes you choose a team and this one is just a random team. I like basketball and have no favorites.
Believe me..I'm the last guy who's going to stand up for jack, but the OP said they could beat any team of any time, so what he's saying kind of makes sense.
yea i already stated that, no way in hell they are best of all time.
Top 5 proabbly
It means it was a free for all when Jordan retired and the Rockets had two good years in his absence. This site makes you choose a team and this one is just a random team. I like basketball and have no favorites.
That argument stands if the rockets ever made it to the finals when after 95. Then it can be said they were flukes...
They fell off due to age after that year. They didn't make it to the finals, so you aren't maiking any sense...
1. Olajuwon WAS the best center ever, he played in the Era of great centers and he flat dominated all of them. wilt, russell were great no doubt, but pu akeem in their Era and he would get their numbers too, put russell in Today and you'd have tim duncan.
2. Drexler in '95 WAS as good as jordan. every bit. no doubt. interchangable. he just had to defer to Hakeem so he wasn't 'the man'. but his ability and contributions were jordanesque.
3. the '96 bulls would have no answer for hakeem, and drexler would have matched jordan. horry would have given pippen trouble.
they had a short run
You summed it up right there buddy, they got two rings right in the middle of the Bulls two three-peats, that's why they had a short run, they wouldn't have had any run if Jordan wasn't playing baseball.
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 07:46 PM
Believe me..I'm the last guy who's going to stand up for jack, but the OP said they could beat any team of any time, so what he's saying kind of makes sense.
I appreciate that. Thanks and I know it has nothing to do with the other thread we chatted in. Peace Bro.
^ I think Kareem is the greatest C ever...
And no i still don't think the rockets could beat that team. The rest of the bulls teams i think they could.
You summed it up right there buddy, they got two rings right in the middle of the Bulls two three-peats, that's why they had a short run, they wouldn't have had any run if Jordan wasn't playing baseball.
Then the spurs wouldn't have gotten their first ring had Jordan not retired?
Do you honestly believe that in that 2 yr window the rox won jordan would have gotten 2 rings and basically won 8 straight championships? Get real man!
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 07:48 PM
That argument stands if the rockets ever made it to the finals when after 95. Then it can be said they were flukes...
They fell off due to age after that year. They didn't make it to the finals, so you aren't maiking any sense...
You honestly think the Rockets would have won those titles if Jordan was there. Really?
djohn2oo8
03-10-2009, 07:49 PM
http://buffetoblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/poop.jpg
They would have been owned by the '95-'96 Bulls...period
1989-1990 bulls games against rockets
Feb 01 atHouston Rockets L 139-112
Feb 19 vsHouston Rockets W 107-102
Bulls game log against rockets 1990-1991
Jan 3 atHouston Rockets L 114-92
Mar 25 vsHouston Rockets L 100-90
Michael Jordan Game Log 1991-1992 against rockets:
Jan 25
vs
Houston Rockets
W
114-100
Jan 30 atHouston Rockets L 105-102
Jordans bulls against rockets 1992-1993
Dec 11 vsHouston Rockets L 110-96
Jan 28 atHouston Rockets L 94-83
1995-1996
Jan 3 vsHouston Rockets W 100-86
Jan 30 atHouston Rockets W 98-87
1996-1997 jordan bulls
Jan 11 vsHouston Rockets W 110-86
Jan 19 atHouston Rockets L 102-86
I wouldn't say they dominated the rockets, or that the rockets would not have won those championships
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:49 PM
1. Olajuwon WAS the best center ever, he played in the Era of great centers and he flat dominated all of them. wilt, russell were great no doubt, but pu akeem in their Era and he would get their numbers too, put russell in Today and you'd have tim duncan.
2. Drexler in '95 WAS as good as jordan. every bit. no doubt. interchangable. he just had to defer to Hakeem so he wasn't 'the man'. but his ability and contributions were jordanesque.
3. the '96 bulls would have no answer for hakeem, and drexler would have matched jordan. horry would have given pippen trouble.
No no no no no no no no no. There never has been and never will be a player like Jordan. Even Laker fans know that Kobe will never be Jordan. You have to respect the hell out of Kobe on the court, but he'll never be Mike..and Clyde was not Mike...ever. 6 rings dude...6. Most of them with just hmi and roleplayers. Clyde wasn't even the best player on that team. Comparing Clyde to Mike is a sin...not even close...
Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, get real with this. Hakeem and Shaq are toe-to-toe right with each other, imo. I think that 2001 Lakers' team best was better than that Rocket teams best.
kobe NOW is better than clyde was, but a '95 Clyde would have mopped the floor with the '00-04 Kobe. period. if you had watched the whole thing you would know
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:49 PM
Clyde isn't on Kobe's level, get real with this. Hakeem and Shaq are toe-to-toe right with each other, imo. I think that 2001 Lakers' team best was better than that Rocket teams best.
Go to youtube and watch some Drexler highlights, because I saw him play in his prime and he can match kobe in any aspect of the game. The difference was when he played the rules weren't set to make the game easier for wing players. That means if Kobe played in Clydes era Kobe wouldn't even be Kobe. Give Clyde the handicaps these players have today and he would average 35 a game on 50% shooting.. Shaq couldn't hold Hakeems Jock strap. He got owned when they played and now you are telling me that a larger slower Shaq was somehow as goodor better? :lmao Kids these days.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:51 PM
Go to youtube and watch some Drexler highlights, because I saw him play in his prime and he can match kobe in any aspect of the game. The difference was when he played the rules weren't set to make the game easier for wing players. That means if Kobe played in Clydes era Kobe wouldn't even be Kobe. Give Clyde the handicaps these players have today and he would average 35 a game on 50% shooting.. Shaq couldn't hold Hakeems Jock strap. He got owned when they played and now you are telling me that a larger slower Shaq was somehow as goodor better? :lmao Kids these days.
I saw him play in his prime as well..Clyde was great...but Jordan? Come on...you have to admit he's not Mike.
You honestly think the Rockets would have won those titles if Jordan was there. Really?
Why wouldn't i? So basically they way you say it.
Lets picture this.
Rockets get to the finals as they did because Jordan isn't in the west.
Bulls make it to the finals? How? They got beat by the 95 Orlando Magic so
unless you can muster up an excuse for their loss, it has nothing to do with that
because jordan DID IN FACT play in 95. The fact he didn't make it to the finals
has nothing to do with the rockets. Its not a difficult concept, quite rudimentary actually.
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 07:52 PM
They were so good they needed Danny Manning to be injured to barely beat the Suns. Thank god I was too young to remember that season.
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:52 PM
I saw him play in his prime as well..Clyde was great...but Jordan? Come on...you have to admit he's not Mike.
No, he definitely wasn't on Mikes level but Kobes' ? Without a doubt.
No no no no no no no no no. There never has been and never will be a player like Jordan. Even Laker fans know that Kobe will never be Jordan. You have to respect the hell out of Kobe on the court, but he'll never be Mike..and Clyde was not Mike...ever. 6 rings dude...6. Most of them with just hmi and roleplayers. Clyde wasn't even the best player on that team. Comparing Clyde to Mike is a sin...not even close...
oh brother, im sick of this 'how dare you even come close to suggesting anyone was even close to being near to the beginnings of jordan' crap.
yes he was the best SG of all time. but that '95 drexeler had the same ability, talent and FIRE of jordan. sure he only won the one, then took it easy and retired, but for that one playoff run, he was prety much unstoppable (the way you could say wade in '06 finals was)
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Why wouldn't i? So basically they way you say it.
Lets picture this.
Rockets get to the finals as they did because Jordan isn't in the west.
Bulls make it to the finals? How? They got beat by the 95 Orlando Magic so
unless you can muster up an excuse for their loss, it has nothing to do with that
because jordan DID IN FACT play in 95. The fact he didn't make it to the finals
has nothing to do with the rockets. Its not a difficult concept, quite rudimentary actually.
Jordan played for part of the season in '95..and wasn't NEAR the normal Jordan...he had to shake off the rust a bit, and get used to the game again. But the pieces of the '95-'96 Bulls were just plain better than the '94-'95 Rockets...
poop they are not the GOAT though.
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 07:55 PM
You can't really compare Clyde and Kobe......Kobe's playing in an era that caters to shooting guards, when Clyde was playing shooting guards weren't nearly as catered to by the league.
Jordan played for part of the season in '95..and wasn't NEAR the normal Jordan...he had to shake off the rust a bit, and get used to the game again. But the pieces of the '95-'96 Bulls were just plain better than the '94-'95 Rockets...
So basically you are IMPLYING that the MAGIC wouldn't have beaten the bulls.
That has nothing to do with the rockets once again. Whether that is true or not doesn't matter. You can make that excuse for every team. What if Stoudamire wasn't suspended vs the spurs. The fact is the Bulls lost to another team in the east. It is irrefutable and doesn't weigh down the rockets valiant efforts during the course of that year one bit. Don't listen to poop, the 96 bulls team was better.
You can't really compare Clyde and Kobe......Kobe's playing in an era that caters to shooting guards, when Clyde was playing shooting guards weren't nearly as catered to by the league.
exactly.
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 07:58 PM
Why wouldn't i? So basically they way you say it.
Lets picture this.
Rockets get to the finals as they did because Jordan isn't in the west.
Bulls make it to the finals? How? They got beat by the 95 Orlando Magic so
unless you can muster up an excuse for their loss, it has nothing to do with that
because jordan DID IN FACT play in 95. The fact he didn't make it to the finals
has nothing to do with the rockets. Its not a difficult concept, quite rudimentary actually.
Jordan ruled the league. He played a big ass mind fuck on every team by his superior play. My opinion is just a opinion. The Rockets were the team that said " Fucking Jordan is out, anyone can win the damn thing" They went with that and won. When the greatest player in the history of the game came back, the Rockets motivational theme left the building. They fell in line with everyone else.
poop they are not the GOAT though.
IMO you could teleport ANY team back to '95, and the rockets would have beat them in a 7 game series.
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 07:58 PM
You can't really compare Clyde and Kobe......Kobe's playing in an era that caters to shooting guards, when Clyde was playing shooting guards weren't nearly as catered to by the league.
Exactly!!! :toast
Jordan ruled the league. He played a big ass mind fuck on every team by his superior play. My opinion is just a opinion. The Rockets were the team that said " Fucking Jordan is out, anyone can win the damn thing" They went with that and won. When the greatest player in the history of the game came back, the Rockets motivational theme left the building. They fell in line with everyone else.
So your telling me the rockets won because of that mentality? Good god every one just likes to take away from the rockets. every little thing, i guess the fans were being fluky and being extra supportive b.c they knew jordan was out too.
Come on dude.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:00 PM
No, he definitely wasn't on Mikes level but Kobes' ? Without a doubt.
Yes..Clyde is on Kobe's level..definitely...I can agree with that.
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:01 PM
You're also discounting the fact Thunder Dan and Barkley going out to drink the night before game 7 played a large role :lol
I wish I didn't know they did that....people think Majerle is such a perfect human being but he's really a prick.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:02 PM
So your telling me the rockets won because of that mentality? Good god every one just likes to take away from the rockets. every little thing, i guess the fans were being fluky and being extra supportive b.c they knew jordan was out too.
Come on dude.
The 94-95 Rockets were a great team, no doubt. You can see that by looking at the roster. But the 95-96 Bulls were better...take one player off that Bulls team (Jordan), and you have a different story...but he was the man. No one took over a game like Jordan.
The 94-95 Rockets were a great team, no doubt. You can see that by looking at the roster. But the 95-96 Bulls were better...take one player off that Bulls team (Jordan), and you have a different story...but he was the man. No one took over a game like Jordan.
yea dude i am not debating that.
I am debating jack saying the rockets wouldn't have won if Jordan was still playing...
Donkeybong
03-10-2009, 08:04 PM
i put hakeem at #2 or #3 behind kareem
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:04 PM
yea dude i am not debating that.
I am debating jack saying the rockets wouldn't have won if Jordan was still playing...
Does "jack" not know MJ came out of retirement and played the 1995 playoffs?
djohn2oo8
03-10-2009, 08:05 PM
Yeah, they won back-to-back. Lakers 5 years later went on a three-peat makin everybody forget about the 94-95 rockets
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 08:05 PM
So your telling me the rockets won because of that mentality? Good god every one just likes to take away from the rockets. every little thing, i guess the fans were being fluky and being extra supportive b.c they knew jordan was out too.
Come on dude.
Yes I am. They are not the most underated team in the history of the league. Portland with the Pipen, Kings with Weber, Suns with Nash,Dallas 2006 team just to name a few could be known as the most underated team and none of them won a ring.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:05 PM
yea dude i am not debating that.
I am debating jack saying the rockets wouldn't have won if Jordan was still playing...
I actually agree with that...I think with Jordan on the Bulls, they win 8 straight titles. He meant that much to that team. I don't think the Rockets beat the Bulls in the Finals. Jordan's Bulls just plain didn't lose in the Finals...
The Franchise
03-10-2009, 08:06 PM
i put hakeem at #2 or #3 behind kareem
I somewhat agree from a longevity angle, but I don't think he would want to see Hakeem in his prime either.
Yes I am. They are not the most underated team in the history of the league. Portland with the Pipen, Kings with Weber, Suns with Nash,Dallas 2006 team just to name a few could be known as the most underated team and none of them won a ring.
if they never won a ring why on earth would you say they were more underrated?
So, by that mentality the 2007 suns were more underrated than the spurs that year.
djohn2oo8
03-10-2009, 08:06 PM
I actually agree with that...I think with Jordan on the Bulls, they win 8 straight titles. He meant that much to that team. I don't think the Rockets beat the Bulls in the Finals. Jordan's Bulls just plain didn't lose in the Finals...
Who would have guarded hakeem?
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:07 PM
I don't think the Rockets beat the Bulls in the Finals. Jordan's Bulls just plain didn't lose in the Finals...
Jordan's Bulls lost to Orlando in 1995, idk what else Houston can do other than beat whatever team comes out of the east.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:08 PM
Who would have guarded hakeem?
Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. If the Spurs had put Rodman against Hakeem when they had him, the Spurs probably could have beaten them.
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:09 PM
Jordan's Bulls lost to Orlando in 1995, idk what else Houston can do other than beat whatever team comes out of the east.
That wasn't the same Jordan..we all know that..he had been out, and was not the same Mike...
djohn2oo8
03-10-2009, 08:10 PM
Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. If the Spurs had put Rodman against Hakeem when they had him, the Spurs probably could have beaten them.
Come on man, Hakeem embarrassed david robinson, he would have made rodman his bitch
Jordan's Bulls lost to Orlando in 1995, idk what else Houston can do other than beat whatever team comes out of the east.
thats exactly what i don't get either. What happened happened, they lost not our fault. People are give way too many what ifs.
What if Amare didn't leave the bench?
What if Horry didn't make that shots vs the kings?
What if the warriors missed the playoffs in 2007?
What if Tmac wasn't always injured?
What if Yao didn't go down las tyear?
so............
What if Jordan didn't play baseball? how is that any different? I guess we should put astericks by every team that won a championship those years i stated above
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:11 PM
That wasn't the same Jordan..we all know that..he had been out, and was not the same Mike...
He averaged 31.5 points in the playoffs that year.....maybe that's not quite normal Jordan but it's not like they had some sort of scrub out there.
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:12 PM
We should just discount any championship won if Jordan wasn't playing that year.
The 99, 2003, 2005, 2007 Spurs championships all don't count since they wouldn't have beaten the '96 Bulls.
Indazone
03-10-2009, 08:14 PM
The 95 Rockets were not even the best Rockets team in franchise history. The 85 Rockets was the all time best. All the pieces were in place to make a run for several championships but drugs and injuries took their toll. The 85 Rockets could have gone on to be a dynasty if Ralph Sampson had stayed healthy and drugs and suspensions hadn't dismantled this young team. Even without their point guard John Lucas, the Rockets advanced deep into the playoffs. Mitch Wiggins and Lewis Lloyd would also failed drug tests later.
THE LOST DYNASTY
By FRAN BLINEBURY
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
THERE was one second on the clock when Rodney McCray threw the perfect inbounds pass that Ralph Sampson jumped and caught with two hands. James Worthy stood frozen, having never made a move to cover, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar backed away on defense, not wanting to be called for a foul.
Sampson's body was a giant corkscrew, twisting 10 feet out on the left side of the lane, and he let fly with a careful, prayerful shot that tapped like an out-of-breath clog dancer on the front, the back, then the front of the rim again before collapsing with a last gasp down into the net.
On May 21, 1986, the Houston Rockets defeated the Los Angeles Lakers 114-112 at The Forum, completing a five-game playoff blitz of the defending champions and advancing to play the Boston Celtics in what was supposed to be the first of many trips to the NBA Finals.
The Rockets would lose the championship round to the
Celtics, four games to two, yet there was no reason for Houston fans to be anything except optimistic about the future. They had the young Twin Towers of Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon anchoring their frontline and a fast break that could crackle like summer lightning.
"I thought we had a dynasty," said backup forward Jim Petersen.
"In our own minds, we probably figured we were a year ahead of schedule, and we'd be back to finish the job," said guard Robert Reid.
"There was a disappointment, for sure, in not beating Boston," said McCray. "Still, we came away from that experience feeling good, knowing that we had really whipped the Lakers.
"That was our time. It was before the rise of the Bad Boys in Detroit, before Jordan and the Bulls came on. In my mind, we were a lock to win one championship and probably more. This was only the beginning."
But in truth, it was already the beginning of the end. The Rockets had made it through the minefield of the playoffs after having to change their lineup when point guard John Lucas was suspended by the league a third time for having failed a drug test.
Midway through the next season, guards Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins would fail drug tests. And within 19 months of his making the shot to beat L.A., Sampson — the former No. 1 overall pick in the draft, former Rookie of the Year and four-time All-Star — would be hobbled by bad knees and traded to the Golden State Warriors.
The originals
Long before the cast of Lost veered off course to an uncharted island in the Pacific to launch a hit show, the crash of the 1986 Rockets turned them into perhaps the NBA's greatest Lost Dynasty. Twenty seasons later, they still know it.
"It was a really good ballclub and probably missed its mark in history with all the things it could have done," said head coach Bill Fitch. "I had so much fun coaching that team, because they had a lot of talent and because they were, for the most part, willing to do everything I asked of them.
"That team had a lot of guys who could shoot and would shoot the big shots at the end of games. It had a player like Ralph, who could do a lot of different things at 7-4, like get the ball off the glass and throw the outlet or run down the floor and finish the break.
"It had Dream in the middle to be relentless on defense and make offensive moves that nobody could stop. It had a Rodney McCray, who would do so many of the little things that are so important. It had Lew, who just loved to play the game."
It was a team that came together according to plan. The Rockets had won back-to-back coin flips for the right to make Sampson and Olajuwon consecutive No. 1 draft picks in 1983 and 1984. They had chosen McCray with the No. 3 pick in 1983 to be a passer, defender and complementary part. They signed Lloyd as a free agent, traded for Wiggins and then handpicked the veteran Lucas to run the offense.
"We took a lot of criticism for drafting Hakeem when we already had Ralph," said general manager Carroll Dawson, who was then an assistant coach. "But we were excited about the Twin Towers concept. We were pretty sure it could work, and once it did, everybody around the league tried to copy it."
Running Rockets
Fitch loved the fast break and had a cast of characters who could run it. None did it with such relish as Lloyd, who'd been cast off by Golden State in 1983 and became a fifth gear for the Rockets' running game.
"I know there were guys back then waking up in cold sweats with dreams of Lew Lloyd coming at them on the break," Fitch said.
"The only player I ever saw who could get to the basket like him was Earl Monroe."
The '86 Rockets were deep. When Lucas was suspended, the veteran Reid was able to shift from shooting guard and handle most of the point guard duties in the playoffs. Behind him was the tenacious Allen Leavell, who had a broken wrist through most of the postseason but played a clutch role in the second half of the clinching win over the Lakers.
Petersen was an invaluble backup at the power forward spot who could bang on the inside for rebounds and bury the medium-range jump shots. Wiggins struggled at first to mesh his personality with that of Fitch but eventually became a defensive stopper who roughed up and bottled up Magic Johnson. The Rockets were so deep that swingman Craig Ehlo, who wound up playing more than a decade in the league, couldn't get any time off the bench.
"It was not just like many teams that you see today," Olajuwon wrote in an e-mail from Amman, Jordan. "The 1986 Rockets were a complete team, and we were not lacking at any position.
"What we might have lacked in experience, we made up for with enthusiasm and never backing down from any challenge. Nobody really thought we could beat the Lakers that year. But we did it convincingly. We knew what we had."
Lucas factor
What the Rockets also had before March 14, when Lucas was suspended, was a smart, gritty, talented quarterback who could run the offense virtually blindfolded, tossing lob passes for dunks to Sampson and Olajuwon.
"I told John a couple weeks after he was out that he was costing me six to eight points a game, and everything wasn't so easy all of a sudden," Sampson said.
The Rockets zoomed out of the gate, starting the season 9-2. They went 14-3 from Dec. 26 to Jan. 30 and were 41-25 when Lucas failed the drug test.
"I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone or in any way put a knock on accomplishments of the organization," Lucas said. "But when I walk around Houston now and I hear people talk about winning those championships in '94 and '95, I just shake my head. I tell them, 'You've either forgotten or you have never seen the best Rockets team. I know. I was a part of it. And I was a big part of bringing it down.'
"I'm telling you, we'd have beaten Boston if I was there. You look at most teams that are put together like that one and they get about an eight- to 10-year window. We didn't know it, but our window was right there, and then it slammed shut."
What the Rockets also didn't know was the first crack in their foundation had appeared when Sampson was undercut while going for a rebound at Boston Garden on March 24. There was a sickening thud when his head cracked against the parquet floor. However, the real damage was done to his back and left hip.
Big man hobbled
Sampson sat out for the first time in his career, missing three games and coming back with a limp. When he began to overcompensate for the pain in his hip, it led to the start of knee problems that would require three operations and cut short his career as an All-Star player. For the final six weeks of the regular season, Fitch closed practice to the media to keep a lid on the extent of the injury.
"It was hard thing to see," Fitch said. "A lot of days, he could barely run, and he couldn't do anything to stop Dream defensively."
"I was never the same from the time I went down in Boston," Sampson said. "It was like I couldn't play my game."
The Rockets started the next season 2-0 but then struggled. On the morning of Jan. 13, 1987 they were 15-18 when word came down that Lloyd and Wiggins had failed drug tests and been suspended by the league.
"I'll never forget. The night before that test, I was in the Summit and Wiggins was there shooting," Fitch said. "The news then was that Micheal Ray Richardson had flunked a drug test with a huge quantity in his system. Wig looked at me and said, 'Don't worry about a thing, Coach. I'm clean.' The very next day he broke Micheal Ray's record. He was off the charts on the test."
The would-be dynasty was coming unglued.
"It's one thing to have injuries," said McCray. "But when guys have drug problems, there's a different kind of feeling. It's a personal letdown. You feel for them. You want them to recover. But you sit back and reflect and say, 'Why did they have to do that?' "
Lack of focus
Olajuwon agreed with McCray.
"I believe we really had the potential to be a dynasty," he said. "There were a lot of championships there for us. But being a dynasty doesn't just come by accident. You have to stay focused on the goal, on and off the court."
On Feb. 3, while trying to make a cut against Bill Hanzlik of Denver, Sampson slipped on a wet spot at the Summit and tore ligaments in his left knee. The injury required surgery and forced him to miss 39 games.
The Rockets finished the regular season 42-40 and lost to Seattle in the second round of the playoffs, eliminated on a night when Olajuwon scored 49 points and grabbed 25 rebounds.
Seven months later, Sampson was traded to Golden State in a deal for Joe Barry Carroll and Sleepy Floyd.
'Gone in a heartbeat'
"When you think about where we were, just a short time earlier, man," said Reid. "The Celtics and Lakers still had their starting fives together and we were all broken up — John, Lew, Wig, then Ralph. It was all gone in a heartbeat."
Dawson walks down the hallway outside his Toyota Center office every day past the collection of team photos through the years. Occasionally, he'll still pause and linger in front of that group from 1986.
"There are still scars that don't heal from that experience," he said. "They deserved better."
McCray can still close his eyes and conjure up the atmosphere, the energy of May 21, 1986 at The Forum.
"I remember running out of the tunnel before the game, the packed house, the movie stars in their seats," he said. "And I remember thinking, 'We're gonna be doing this every year. It's just the start.' "
For the Lost Dynasty, it was the beginning of the end.
[email protected]
DUNCANownsKOBE2
03-10-2009, 08:17 PM
Rodman did well against Hakeem when they played each other. If the Spurs had put Rodman against Hakeem when they had him, the Spurs probably could have beaten them.
And if Mike D'antoni didn't throw away game 1 before realizing Kurt Thomas should have been getting starter's minutes against Tim Duncan, the Suns might have won that series in 2007.
But that doesn't matter.
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 08:19 PM
if they never won a ring why on earth would you say they were more underrated?
So, by that mentality the 2007 suns were more underrated than the spurs that year.
Because they never won a ring. Thats underated man. Those Heat teams with Mourning and the Knicks teams with Ewing were fucking great. They never won a ring either. They are lost in the great teams of the game because they did not win a ring and that means they were underrated.
Suns were underrated for sure. Especially when you bring in the fact Amare and Dias were suspended.
If you want to talk about teams that won titles who are underrated, obviously that would make our choices smaller. But thats not what the thread is saying. Most underrated team of all time is not a team that won two rings let alone in a row.
lefty
03-10-2009, 08:21 PM
no one EVER talks about this team but i believe they could have beat any team, ever. any laker team, bulls team, spurs team, celtics team.
1. they finished UNDER 50 games for the 6th seed, the lowest seed to ever win a title. this is because they got Drexeler before the deadline and hit their stride, plus they didnt give a rats ass about the regular season.
2. they were the most Clutch team EVER. this is when the 'clutch city' thing came about. ive neevr seen a team with so many guys who would kill in the 4th quarter, last second plays, huge 3-pointers, etc. there has never been a Clutch team like this. (a young Horry, a young cassell, Olajuwon at his peak, clyde drexeler and kenny smith, mario elie, all hit huge clutch shots)
3. when facing elimination, NONE WERE BETTER. there were so many times they should have lost, they were down 2-1 first round against Utah (best of 5 back then), they came back (without HC advantage) and won.
then they were down 3-1 against a Suns team that made the Finals, came back from 3-1 (without HC advantage) to win the series
4. the teams they beat were very quality teams; they beat the stockton-malone Jazz (a team that made finals 2 times) on the road, the Barkley-KJ Suns (also a Finals team) on the road, the Robinson Spurs with best record in the league and MVP (on the road), and SWEPT the HEAVILY FAVORED Shaq-Hardaway magic in the finals (wothout HC advantage)
5. Hakeem was the best center ever, crushing karl malone, charles barkley, MVP david robinson, and a young athletic Shaq along them way, having crushed Ewing the year before.
they had a short run, but if any team in history were to have met that Rockets team that year, they would have got beat.
They are not overrated
They were clutch, they made big plays when it mattered the most.
Would it have been a different story without the Rodman incident; maybe... but still.
Oh, and Olajuwon outpimped Robinson and Shaq
Spursfan092120
03-10-2009, 08:34 PM
We should just discount any championship won if Jordan wasn't playing that year.
The 99, 2003, 2005, 2007 Spurs championships all don't count since they wouldn't have beaten the '96 Bulls.
No one's discounting any championships...at least I'm not...I'm just saying that the '95-'96 Bulls would have beaten the '94-'95 Rockets...
It was the same Jordan. He came back and scored 55 a few days back in the league. He also averaged 31 ppg in the playoffs (might be the Magic series). He wasn't coming back from injury, he wasn't out of shape and he still had plenty of great basketball left in him. Don't give me that asterix bullshit, those were legitimate teams.
The scary thing is that supposedly the Blazers offered the #1 pick and Drexler for Sampson in 1983. Talk about the dynasty that never was.
Many PackYao
03-10-2009, 08:48 PM
You summed it up right there buddy, they got two rings right in the middle of the Bulls two three-peats, that's why they had a short run, they wouldn't have had any run if Jordan wasn't playing baseball.
In that case the Spurs wouldn't have the '99 title if Krause had kept Bulls together. Hell, it took the Spurs till '03 to get their 2nd.:lol
jack sommerset
03-10-2009, 08:51 PM
In that case the Spurs wouldn't have the '99 title if Krause had kept Bulls together. Hell, it took the Spurs till '03 to get their 2nd.:lol
Oh GAWD, this is the wrong place to mention that season. Those homers cling on to that season like there baby hanging from a bridge. But its true. That season was the biggest fucking joke of all time in any sport. The NFL strike season is pretty darn close but the priduct the NBA put out that year takes the cake.
monosylab1k
03-10-2009, 08:58 PM
lol, saying Drexler is on Kobe's level is as stupid as saying Kobe is on Jordan's level.
Drexler was pretty fucking good.
mabrignani
03-10-2009, 09:32 PM
how come the rocks never won a title when jordan was playing? they could only win when he retired
lefty
03-10-2009, 09:38 PM
how come the rocks never won a title when jordan was playing? they could only win when he retired
Rudy joined the team in the summer of 1992, and so did Robert Horry (who was great as a SF)
The Rockets almost made it to the WCF that season (fucking refs bailed the Sonics out to have a division rivals matchup in the WCF); I'm sure the Rockets would have beaten the Suns afterwards
The following season, Elie and Cassel were the final piece of the puzzle
In a nutshell, they sucked before 92-93 and became really strong in a 2 year span, so there was no way they could have contended for a title before that, anyway.
JoeTait75
03-10-2009, 09:40 PM
One thing to point out about that Bulls team is that, as great as it was, it played in the inferior conference. The teams Houston beat in the 1995 WC Playoffs were better than any of the teams Chicago played in the EC Playoffs in '96, '97, and probably '98 as well (although the Pacers were solid.) the Knicks and Heat were garbage teams.
Houston's '95 title run speaks for itself. Show me a better one.
lefty
03-10-2009, 09:42 PM
One thing to point out about that Bulls team is that, as great as it was, it played in the inferior conference. The teams Houston beat in the 1995 WC Playoffs were better than any of the teams Chicago played in the EC Playoffs in '96, '97, and probably '98 as well (although the Pacers were solid.) the Knicks and Heat were garbage teams.
Houston's '95 title run speaks for itself. Show me a better one.
:tu
Good point; in 95, the Jazz, Suns and Spurs were the heavy favorites to win the NBA title
how come the rocks never won a title when jordan was playing? they could only win when he retired
Jordan played in 95 when they won. He averaged 31 ppg in his elimination series but couldnt get past Shaq's magic, who were later swept by the Rockets.
baseline bum
03-10-2009, 10:00 PM
The '95 Rockets were a hell of a team and are underrated in history, but since their title I'd take the following teams to beat them:
96 Bulls
97 Bulls
99 Spurs
00 Lakers
01 Lakers
03 Spurs
08 Celtics
lefty
03-10-2009, 10:03 PM
The '95 Rockets were a hell of a team and are underrated in history, but since their title I'd take the following teams to beat them:
96 Bulls
97 Bulls
99 Spurs
00 Lakers
01 Lakers
03 Spurs
08 Celtics
Yeah, I can see Perkins/Garnett, Allen and Rondo stopping Hakeem, Clyde and Cassel :rolleyes
scanry
03-10-2009, 10:03 PM
of course Clyde wasn't as good as Kobe is, but he was VERY close.
You are failing to understand that rocket's team was assembled in the form of a monster. Go look at all the names i boldened.
And you can't include Robert Horry on that lakers team, he played his best ball in houston.
They had Terrific Pgs in Kenny Smith and Sam Cassel
Close my ass. Kobe would run circles around Clyde.
Robert Horry played his best ball as a Laker from 2000-2002 & as a Spur (in 2005).
Kenny Smith is a terrific pg?:lmao Dude Kenny is a scrub, period.
Be real man!!! Any Jordan teams from the 90's would've beaten the Rockets. The 89 & 90 Pistons would've shut down Hakeem completely.
BTW the 89 & 90 Pistons are one of the most underrated teams ever. They were the ones who cost Jordan another 2, maybe 3 championships. :wow
scanry
03-10-2009, 10:05 PM
The OP should change the title to
most Underrated team ever- '1989 & 1990 Pistons
Now they earned those championships. BTW they could've won the 1988 finals as well.
baseline bum
03-10-2009, 10:06 PM
2. Drexler in '95 WAS as good as jordan. every bit. no doubt. interchangable. he just had to defer to Hakeem so he wasn't 'the man'. but his ability and contributions were jordanesque.
If you mean as good as 95 Jordan who made bonehead plays in the ECF and only had a month and a half preparation for the playoffs.... still no, Jordan was still a better player.
Close my ass. Kobe would run circles around Clyde.
Kenny Smith is a terrific pg?:lmao Dude Kenny is a scrub, period.
drexler for much of his career was damn close to kobe, especially that '95 playoff run.
Ksmith was def not a scrub, he was one of the leagues top 3point shooters, clutch as hell and a solid PG.
OH AND WHO IS THAT IN YOUR AVATAR??
Close my ass. Kobe would run circles around Clyde.
Robert Horry played his best ball as a Laker from 2000-2002 & as a Spur (in 2005).
Kenny Smith is a terrific pg?:lmao Dude Kenny is a scrub, period.
Be real man!!! Any Jordan teams from the 90's would've beaten the Rockets. The 89 & 90 Pistons would've shut down Hakeem completely.
BTW the 89 & 90 Pistons are one of the most underrated teams ever. They were the ones who cost Jordan another 2, maybe 3 championships. :wow
actually i went back and watched some old vids. Drexler was better.
Jeremy
03-10-2009, 10:14 PM
They were so good they needed Danny Manning to be injured to barely beat the Suns. Thank god I was too young to remember that season.
Ahh, unfortunately I wasn't quite young enough...hehe. That was the first season I started following the Suns closely...don't remind me...I cried my eyes out after they were eliminated. LOL.
JoeTait75
03-10-2009, 10:18 PM
The 89 & 90 Pistons would've shut down Hakeem completely.
Laimbeer? Brad Daugherty abused Laimbeer. Rodmonian? How did he do in '95?
peskypesky
03-10-2009, 10:28 PM
they would've never won a ring if MJ hadn't retired, so no, they're not under-rated. if anything, they're over-rated.
robbie380
03-10-2009, 10:42 PM
fwiw hakeem's rocket teams were 10-8 v. jordan's chicago teams in his career.
anyhow...i think the most interesting discussion coming out of this is how does drexler compare to kobe. kobe is obviously the better scorer but their career per 36 numbers are pretty comparable with clyde averaging more rebs, assists, and steals. clyde was a worse 3pt shooter but with the prevalence of the 3pter in today's game you would have to think clyde's 3 pointer would have been better if he grew up in today's game since he was able to develop that shot as his career progressed. also, drexler was definitely not a slouch on d even though he doesn't have nba all defensive teams to his credit.
i think it's interesting to note that drexler missed out on 2 quadruple doubles in his career.
they would've never won a ring if MJ hadn't retired, so no, they're not under-rated. if anything, they're over-rated.
same with the spurs in 99' then right?
hey guess what? The spurs used horry to suspend stoudamire so astrix by that too. If anything, its overrated
baseline bum
03-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Laimbeer? Brad Daugherty abused Laimbeer. Rodmonian? How did he do in '95?
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baseline bum
03-10-2009, 11:54 PM
they would've never won a ring if MJ hadn't retired, so no, they're not under-rated. if anything, they're over-rated.
They would have definitely beaten the Bulls in 95 with no Horace Grant and no Rodman. They would have prob beaten the 98 Bulls, and would have an outside shot at beating the 93 team. No way in hell against the 92, 96, 97, or 91 teams though.
peskypesky
03-10-2009, 11:56 PM
\The spurs used horry to suspend stoudamire
:lmao
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 12:19 AM
Wow...the same old tired arguments in these debates. It's funny that they still need to be shattered.
Myth: The Rockets only won because Jordan was retired.
Fact: Jordan played in 1995. His team lost because they didn't have a PF (theirs played on the team that eliminated them). I don't think you will find too many title teams that have their SF and SG leading them in rebounds.
Myth: 95 Jordan was rusty and wasn't the same.
Fact: 95 Jordan put up better numbers than he did in the 2nd 3-peat. But as last years Lakers showed the world, if you can't control the paint you can't win. All of Jordan's title teams had great interior defense. That wasn't the case in 95.
Myth: The Rockets would not have stood a chance against Chicago.
Fact: The Rockets had a winning record against those Bulls, BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ONE WHO COULD CONTAIN HAKEEM. Again, the Rockets usually beat Chicago. Hakeem also dominated the paint and was able to focus on help defense since Chicago didn't have any pivot worth holding.
Fact: The teams that gave the Bulls the most trouble had centers. The Knicks took them to 7 games with Ewing. The Magic beat them with Shaq. The Pacers took them to 7 with Smits. None of these players were as good as Hakeem on either side of the ball. None of these teams had a dude that could close games like Hakeem could.
Now if your claim is Houston couldn't beat Chicago, at least try to stop with the "MJ was God" arguments and address these points of mine:
1) Who was going to hold Hakeem. No seriously, who the hell was going to hold Hakeem. He put up 29 a night in the 94 playoffs, and dropped 27 a night in the Finals against a trio of Ewing, Oakley and Mason. He did this on 50% shooting, in a defensvie series where his team only averaged 86 ppg. That's providing 31% of the teams offense against a great defensive frontcourt!! And while doing that, he held Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%. In the 95 playoffs he put up 33 a night. That's more than MJ put up in 4 of his 6 title years. In other words...Hakeem could churn points just like Jordan...and I would argue he was doing it against better defenders. We all know how he torched the Robinson/Rodman combo (while holding Robinson on the other end). He put up 33 a game on Shaq as well, while also holding him on the other end. Yet, I am supposed to believe that he could be contained by any pivot the Bulls could throw at him...even the undersized Dennis Rodman??? Especially considering that he doesn't have to hold any of those dudes on the other side of the court. For those that don't get it...if you can drop 30 a night while checking a great center....life get's easier for you when you face up against worst defensive frontcourts....that also can't score against you on the other end.
2) The Rockets won by either having Hakeem or Clyde score (mainly Hakeem), or by hitting open three pointers. That means to beat them, you have to either hope you can neutralize Hakeem or that dudes are missing 3's. It's clear as day that no one from the Bulls could stop Hakeem....and the Rockets weren't missing 3's that postseason (Drexler-30%, Horry-40%, Cassell-40%, Smith-44%, Elie-43%, Chilcutt-39%).
3) I kinda already covered this one but I wanna point it out again. You are taking arguably the best defensive center ever (he is in the convo), an athletic freak like Robinson with the speed to chase down guards and insane shotblocking ability and recovery time....and putting him in a series where he doesn't have to hold anyone and letting him just sit in the lane and play help defense???? Do you not wonder why we used to routinely beat Chicago? At least the Sonics had centers that could camp out at the 3 point line and draw Hakeem out of the paint...but the Bulls had no one worth paying attention to.
Now that 96 Bulls team was one of the greatest that I ever saw. I'm not sure anyone could have beaten them with the way they were playing that year (i.e. they didn't play the same way in 97 or 98). But in 95 the Rockets simply would not die...so I don't know.
But at least argue with some valid points and not just the "MJ is great" garbage....
Rogue
03-11-2009, 02:06 AM
Who would have guarded hakeem?
account for your own business fool, you were definitely not a rockets fan at that time.
FYI, you're not more worthful than a fag.
scanry
03-11-2009, 07:57 AM
Who would have guarded hakeem?
Probably nobody, but more importantly who would've stopped Jordan from torching the Rockets? Now that is more relevant. No team stopped Jordan in the postseason, and Rockets sure as hell wouldn't stand a chance.
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 09:38 AM
Who would have guarded hakeem?
Probably nobody, but more importantly who would've stopped Jordan from torching the Rockets? Now that is more relevant. No team stopped Jordan in the postseason, and Rockets sure as hell wouldn't stand a chance.
Probably nobody? Well ok....if nobody can stop Hakeem then the Rockets aren't losing...assuming other guys can hit their shots. You are basically avoiding the question by reverting back to the same "no one could stop Jordan" myth. To hell with Jordan. Let him get what he usually got back then, because the Rockets had a center that could churn points like him at a more efficient rate. This is what you keep ignoring.
If Jordan scores 35 and Hakeem scores 35, in a more efficient manner...then doesn't the advantage go to Houston? Again, in the 95 Playoffs Hakeem put up 33 a game on 53%. Can you find me one of MJ's title postseason runs where he put up 33 a night on 53%...since no one could stop Jordan? No, you can't. MJ put up more points than Hakeem's 33 in two of those title seasons, but always at a lower FG%.
So again, why don't you try answering this simple question and stop avoiding it? In the 95 Playoffs Hakeem dropped 35 a night on Robinson/Rodman, on 56%. He put up 27, 41, 43, 20 (his only bad game...where he shot 9-24), 42 and 39 points. He did this while having to hold Robinson on the other end. In the Finals, he put up 33 a night on Shaq/Grant, on 50%. He did this while having to hold Oneal on the other end. So he could damn near drop four 40 point games on Robinson/Rodman, and 30 a night on Shaq...but he wouldn't be able to do that against any pivot the Bulls could throw at him...when he didn't have to waste any energy holding anyone defensively?
Jordan wasn't the biggest mismatch in a potential Rockets/Bulls series. It's not that hard to comprehend. Come back when you have a legit argument based on more than "Jordan was God in Nike's".
:lmao
yup it was a joke :lol
Thunder Dan
03-11-2009, 12:01 PM
the 1995 Rockets were underrated because nobody gave a shit about the NBA in 1995
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 12:51 PM
the 1995 Rockets were underrated because nobody gave a shit about the NBA in 1995
Now this is actually a true statement.
The Franchise
03-11-2009, 12:54 PM
the 1995 Rockets were underrated because nobody gave a shit about the NBA in 1995
It's hard to give a shit when your still making it in your pampers young'un.
JoeTait75
03-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Question isn't what MJ or Hakeem would do. Those guys would get theirs. Question is how Houston's backcourt would have handled Chicago's ridiculous perimeter defense. Teams had a hard time just getting the ball over halfcourt when the Bulls turned up the pressure. Could Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell have gotten the job done?
Thunder Dan
03-11-2009, 12:58 PM
It's hard to give a shit when your still making it in your pampers young'un.
Summer of 1995 I was beatin off to CJ Parker on Baywatch, not watching the shitty Rockets beat the shitty Magic
Many PackYao
03-11-2009, 01:12 PM
Summer of 1995 I was beatin off to CJ Parker on Baywatch, not watching the shitty Rockets beat the shitty Magic
That proves how much you know whether they were underrated or not. Anyways, the Cavs were not worth watchin' back then so I could see how you were off doing other things.:lol
Wow...the same old tired arguments in these debates. It's funny that they still need to be shattered.
Myth: The Rockets only won because Jordan was retired.
Fact: Jordan played in 1995. His team lost because they didn't have a PF (theirs played on the team that eliminated them). I don't think you will find too many title teams that have their SF and SG leading them in rebounds.
Myth: 95 Jordan was rusty and wasn't the same.
Fact: 95 Jordan put up better numbers than he did in the 2nd 3-peat. But as last years Lakers showed the world, if you can't control the paint you can't win. All of Jordan's title teams had great interior defense. That wasn't the case in 95.
Myth: The Rockets would not have stood a chance against Chicago.
Fact: The Rockets had a winning record against those Bulls, BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ONE WHO COULD CONTAIN HAKEEM. Again, the Rockets usually beat Chicago. Hakeem also dominated the paint and was able to focus on help defense since Chicago didn't have any pivot worth holding.
Fact: The teams that gave the Bulls the most trouble had centers. The Knicks took them to 7 games with Ewing. The Magic beat them with Shaq. The Pacers took them to 7 with Smits. None of these players were as good as Hakeem on either side of the ball. None of these teams had a dude that could close games like Hakeem could.
Now if your claim is Houston couldn't beat Chicago, at least try to stop with the "MJ was God" arguments and address these points of mine:
1) Who was going to hold Hakeem. No seriously, who the hell was going to hold Hakeem. He put up 29 a night in the 94 playoffs, and dropped 27 a night in the Finals against a trio of Ewing, Oakley and Mason. He did this on 50% shooting, in a defensvie series where his team only averaged 86 ppg. That's providing 31% of the teams offense against a great defensive frontcourt!! And while doing that, he held Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%. In the 95 playoffs he put up 33 a night. That's more than MJ put up in 4 of his 6 title years. In other words...Hakeem could churn points just like Jordan...and I would argue he was doing it against better defenders. We all know how he torched the Robinson/Rodman combo (while holding Robinson on the other end). He put up 33 a game on Shaq as well, while also holding him on the other end. Yet, I am supposed to believe that he could be contained by any pivot the Bulls could throw at him...even the undersized Dennis Rodman??? Especially considering that he doesn't have to hold any of those dudes on the other side of the court. For those that don't get it...if you can drop 30 a night while checking a great center....life get's easier for you when you face up against worst defensive frontcourts....that also can't score against you on the other end.
2) The Rockets won by either having Hakeem or Clyde score (mainly Hakeem), or by hitting open three pointers. That means to beat them, you have to either hope you can neutralize Hakeem or that dudes are missing 3's. It's clear as day that no one from the Bulls could stop Hakeem....and the Rockets weren't missing 3's that postseason (Drexler-30%, Horry-40%, Cassell-40%, Smith-44%, Elie-43%, Chilcutt-39%).
3) I kinda already covered this one but I wanna point it out again. You are taking arguably the best defensive center ever (he is in the convo), an athletic freak like Robinson with the speed to chase down guards and insane shotblocking ability and recovery time....and putting him in a series where he doesn't have to hold anyone and letting him just sit in the lane and play help defense???? Do you not wonder why we used to routinely beat Chicago? At least the Sonics had centers that could camp out at the 3 point line and draw Hakeem out of the paint...but the Bulls had no one worth paying attention to.
Now that 96 Bulls team was one of the greatest that I ever saw. I'm not sure anyone could have beaten them with the way they were playing that year (i.e. they didn't play the same way in 97 or 98). But in 95 the Rockets simply would not die...so I don't know.
But at least argue with some valid points and not just the "MJ is great" garbage....
VERY WELL SAID. once people get past the 'jordan = god' who neutralized 12 players by himself nonsense they would realise Hakeem put up even bigger numbers and was even more dominant that year -against superior competition- than was jordan
Th 95 Rockets team didnt play other great teams, so your argument is weak. As far as clutch, I would say you have a debate. But they were far from underrated. Thye were a sixth seed that no one saw coming. They were rated right where they were.
Shaqs Lakers
Magics Lakers
Birds Celtics
Duncans/Robinsons Spurs
Jordans Bulls
Thomas's Pistons
Dr. J's 83 Sixers
Would have all easily handled that 95 Rockets team.
Shaq's lakers? ROFL, i think Shaq already has some bad memories against Hakeem, and it would be the same result as last time.
Birds Celtics? Maybe, maybe not.
Duncan/Robinson's spurs? Wtf? No way, Robinson got abused by Hakeem, even he said so hW4uXlRGAF0
Jordan's bulls, depends on which team you're talking about. 95' and the years before the Bulls were getting handled pretty bad by the rockets, just not a good mathup for them. 96' team, toss up in 7.
Lakaluva you are a great poster but comeon :toast
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 02:27 PM
Question isn't what MJ or Hakeem would do. Those guys would get theirs. Question is how Houston's backcourt would have handled Chicago's ridiculous perimeter defense. Teams had a hard time just getting the ball over halfcourt when the Bulls turned up the pressure. Could Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell have gotten the job done?
Thank you for a valid basketball argument.
I don't think this would have been an issue for the Rockets because they ran a small team around Hakeem and every starter could handle the ball (Smith, Drexler, Elie and Horry AND PASS. You beat a press with passing. Cassell is a very good ball handler as well. Additionally, it's not like they asked anyone besides Drexler to create his own shot. They just dumped it into Hakeem and waited for an open jumper. So again, can you stop Hakeem without giving up open shots?
Flo-Rida
03-11-2009, 02:28 PM
2004 pistons
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 02:29 PM
Th 95 Rockets team didnt play other great teams, so your argument is weak. As far as clutch, I would say you have a debate. But they were far from underrated. Thye were a sixth seed that no one saw coming. They were rated right where they were.
Shaqs Lakers
Magics Lakers
Birds Celtics
Duncans/Robinsons Spurs
Jordans Bulls
Thomas's Pistons
Dr. J's 83 Sixers
Would have all easily handled that 95 Rockets team.
The 94/95 Rockets beat the same teams the Bulls beat for their titles, with the exception of the 91 Blazers, 91 Lakers and the Sonics...who had our number. They beat the same Knicks, Suns and Jazz teams...and a very good San Antonio team.
So this argument really isn't very valid.
scanry
03-11-2009, 02:40 PM
VERY WELL SAID. once people get past the 'jordan = god' who neutralized 12 players by himself nonsense they would realise Hakeem put up even bigger numbers and was even more dominant that year -against superior competition- than was jordan
Superior my ass...:rolleyes
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
Just scroll down to Playoffs on that site and see for yourself. :wow
The man averaged 33.4/6.4/5.7 over a 13 year span.
BTW his rookie stat line was 29.3/5.6/8.5!!!
As a matter of fact, Jordan was underrated considering the stifling defense & the hand checking rules back in those days.
scanry
03-11-2009, 02:50 PM
Shaq's lakers? ROFL, i think Shaq already has some bad memories against Hakeem, and it would be the same result as last time.
Birds Celtics? Maybe, maybe not.
Duncan/Robinson's spurs? Wtf? No way, Robinson got abused by Hakeem, even he said so hW4uXlRGAF0
Jordan's bulls, depends on which team you're talking about. 95' and the years before the Bulls were getting handled pretty bad by the rockets, just not a good mathup for them. 96' team, toss up in 7.
Lakaluva you are a great poster but comeon :toast
Shaq was with Penny for crying out loud. You think with Kobe as his sidekick, the Rockets would stand a chance?
The Shaq-Kobe would've easily beaten them with Phil coaching the Lakers. Duncan-Robinson would've beaten them too. The Jordan Bulls would've swept the Rockets.
As great and unstoppable as Hakkem was, Jordan was a lot better.
Robinson isn't exactly a Duncan, and i like our chances with Duncan as the protagonist.
BTW the Jordan Bulls stepped up a notch in the post season. Their defense was always better in the post season. If you think some meaningless regular season games count, then i can't really argue with you.
ambchang
03-11-2009, 03:31 PM
thats debatable. He was playing better because he was aside Kobe, but he was not a better player. That rockets team was built solid from head to toe just look at the roster. Big names like Otis Thorpe who was an all star, sam cassel, and Vernon Maxwell who shut Jordan down on a n number of occasions
If memory serves me well, Otis Thorpe was traded for Drexler, and Maxwell was kicked off the team after acting like a nutcase.
Exactly, it used to be a Jordan vs Drexler thing like it is Lebron vs Kobe.
Jordan just outplayed him in the finals and it was put to rest. But he was considered the 2nd best SG
No it wasn’t. Drexler was, and always will be considered a tier below Jordan. Drexler was a late edition to the original dream team along with Laettner, he was 2nd in MVP voting to Jordan, he was demolished in 92 in the Finals against Jordan, and didn’t fare well head to head in the other outings (and that was in his prime, we are talking about 95 here, when Drexler wasn’t anything close to his prime years).
Russell and Wilt were from a different time, the game has progressed so far today that it's no longer even comparable. Jabbar maybe, though, but I still like Hakeem simply because he dominated both sides of the ball like never before seen. Only Hakeem could run down a guard on the fast break and block his shot, then dribble back down the court and score through traffic.
Then you obviously have never seen Wilt and Russell play, nor Robinson, or even Dwight Howard for that matter. All those guys could easily catch up with guards, block their shot, and dribble down court for a score in traffic. Jabbar was dominant defensively as well.
1. Olajuwon WAS the best center ever, he played in the Era of great centers and he flat dominated all of them. wilt, russell were great no doubt, but pu akeem in their Era and he would get their numbers too, put russell in Today and you'd have tim duncan.
2. Drexler in '95 WAS as good as jordan. every bit. no doubt. interchangable. he just had to defer to Hakeem so he wasn't 'the man'. but his ability and contributions were jordanesque.
3. the '96 bulls would have no answer for hakeem, and drexler would have matched jordan. horry would have given pippen trouble.
So much wrong I don’t know where to begin. Hakeem dominated different centers once in a while. Overall, he didn’t do as well against Robinson through their careers. He was clearly superior to Ewing in head to heads, and has a slight advantage to Shaq when head to head. Look it up.
Russell never had the offensive polish of Duncan. And Russell was miles ahead on defense. Two extremely different players. It’s like saying Barkley is the new Gervin because they were both great forwards.
Drexler in 95 wasn’t even as good as Drexler in 92. He was even taking a back seat to Cliff Robinson during his last days in Portland. This isn’t even funny. Drexler suffered from injuries the last few years, and he no longer was as quick or as athletic as his younger days.
The last paragraph is pure speculation, but saying Horry would have given Pippen trouble in the context of Horry neutralizing Pippen is just asinine. Pippen ate a 75% Worthy alive in 91, and Pippen in 96 was way better than Pippen in 91. Worthy would have destroyed Horry on one leg.
Finally, people don’t realize that the two years the Rockets won the championship were the years the 3-point line was shortened. This is NOT a coincidence, as the Rockets offense was to surround Hakeem with great 3 pt shooters. Credit Hakeem for making crisp passes to the perimeter when he got double teamed (which is pretty much all the time), and credit the shooters for having quick releases, but this was a team that had benefited from a set of rules that catered to them hugely.
baseline bum
03-11-2009, 03:35 PM
If Jordan scores 35 and Hakeem scores 35, in a more efficient manner...then doesn't the advantage go to Houston? Again, in the 95 Playoffs Hakeem put up 33 a game on 53%. Can you find me one of MJ's title postseason runs where he put up 33 a night on 53%...since no one could stop Jordan? No, you can't. MJ put up more points than Hakeem's 33 in two of those title seasons, but always at a lower FG%.
I'll take Jordan's 91 playoffs over Olajuwon's 95:
Jordan91:
GAMES: 17
PPG: 31.1
FG%: 52.4
FT%: 84.5
RPG: 6.4
APG: 8.4
SPG: 2.4
BPG: 1.4
TOPG: 2.5
EFF: 35.1
Olajuwon95:
GAMES: 22
PPG: 33.0
FG%: 53.1
FT%: 68.1
RPG: 10.3
APG: 4.5
SPG: 1.2
BPG: 2.8
TOPG: 3.3
EFF: 33.8
SpursDynasty
03-11-2009, 03:39 PM
The '95 Rockets were okay...they just showed up to play. I think the league kind of thought that everything would come easy without the MJ Bulls....so, most teams took it easy and a 6th seeded team won the NBA Championship. They just wanted it more than anyone else. The 2008 G.S. Warriors had a better regular season record than these guys. So, it goes to show that when no one cares, anyone can show up, make their shots, and win a championship. Without M.J. in the league, easy task...so, credit is due for their championship, but they aren't in the top 10 teams of all time.
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 04:16 PM
I'll take Jordan's 91 playoffs over Olajuwon's 95:
Jordan91:
GAMES: 17
PPG: 31.1
FG%: 52.4
FT%: 84.5
RPG: 6.4
APG: 8.4
SPG: 2.4
BPG: 1.4
TOPG: 2.5
EFF: 35.1
Olajuwon95:
GAMES: 22
PPG: 33.0
FG%: 53.1
FT%: 68.1
RPG: 10.3
APG: 4.5
SPG: 1.2
BPG: 2.8
TOPG: 3.3
EFF: 33.8
Hmm, so you would take a player scoring less points, on a worse FG%....over a player scoring more points on a better FG%???? I won't even mention the overall impact a defensive pivot has over a defensive wing.
Additionally, please show me the wings assigned to stop MJ in 91, and the folks he had to defend on the other end. Because my point is if Hakeem can drop 33 a game on 53% on Robinson/Rodman and Shaq/Grant....while holding them on the other side....then I would naturally assume he could do better against the Bulls big's (i.e. MUCH worse defenders), when he doesn't have to focus on any of them defensively. Again, Hakeem wouldn't have to spend any time checking any pivot from any of those Bulls title teams...and you are allowing one of the best and most athletic defenders to basically roam all game long. Do you really not see the logic in this argument?
It's also hilarious to read all these "MJ always stepped up...MJ was so unstoppable then" quotes....when MJ scored less than Hakeem did in every Finals run but 2....and in those 2 he shot a worse %. But I guess his PPG matter more because his last name in Jordan....
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 04:23 PM
That Houston team was a fluke team with a bunch of no name players that happened to gel at the right time. No way they would have challenged any of the teams on my list. The Bulls were far superior to the teams you listed that were supposed to be contenders.
How were they a fluke team when they were the defending champions? What team flukes two years in a row? Silly argument. And the last time I checked, I didn't know Hakeem (HOF), Drexler (HOF), Horry (7 rings..Mr. Clutch), or Cassell (also very clutch) were no name players. Just because Horry and Cassell were young doesn't mean they were scrubs.
Houston went into that season not knowing where they would be. Hakeem alsmost got traded the year before. Horry almost got traded for Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_. Cassell was a rookie. Kenny Smith had a career year, and Ellie, Smith, and the rest of those guys were nobodies.
You obviously are clueless on the subject (said in a non offensive way). Hakeem was almost traded before the 92/93 season...and there really was no almost because there was no serious deal. That's like saying Kobe almost got traded last year. Horry was traded in the 93/94 season. Cassell was in his 2nd yr in 95. Elie was unknown but that doesn't mean he sucked. Bynum was technically a "nobody" before he blew up last season...it doesn't diminish his impact when he played.
I would say Hakeem had the best playoffs run in the history of the sport, hands down, but that team would have got drug against one of the great teams I mentioned.
It's cool to have that opinion. But you still have yet to support your argument with anything besides "Houston would not beat these teams".
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Superior my ass...:rolleyes
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
Just scroll down to Playoffs on that site and see for yourself. :wow
The man averaged 33.4/6.4/5.7 over a 13 year span.
BTW his rookie stat line was 29.3/5.6/8.5!!!
As a matter of fact, Jordan was underrated considering the stifling defense & the hand checking rules back in those days.
He meant superior defensive attention than MJ faced, in those season. Unless you can show us MJ going through 3 of the top 7 at his position in history on his way to titles...similar to Hakeem going through Ewing/Robinson/Shaq. The point is if he can destroy those 3 why could he not do the same to Will Perdue or Bill Cartwright???
No one is saying Hakeem > MJ. We know no one could stop Jordan. No one has yet to show us how the Bulls could have stopped Hakeem. He was putting up MJ numbers against great bigs. It's not that complex....
1. Jordan DID PLAY in '95, put up huge numbers, and got beat by the same Magic team that Houston SWEPT that year.
2. the '95 Rockets werent a 'fluke', they were the DEFENDING CHAMPIONS, having beat a Knicks team that gave the bulls fits the year before.
3. the teams they played certainly did 'care', ask stockton, malone, or barkley if they wanted to win that season.
slayermin
03-11-2009, 04:42 PM
I hate to say it, but that team was amazing. They probably are the most underrated team ever. But I don't think they could have beaten every championship team in a seven game series. They certainly would make it interesting against them all.
If memory serves me well, Otis Thorpe was traded for Drexler, and Maxwell was kicked off the team after acting like a nutcase.
No it wasn’t. Drexler was, and always will be considered a tier below Jordan. Drexler was a late edition to the original dream team along with Laettner, he was 2nd in MVP voting to Jordan, he was demolished in 92 in the Finals against Jordan, and didn’t fare well head to head in the other outings (and that was in his prime, we are talking about 95 here, when Drexler wasn’t anything close to his prime years).
Then you obviously have never seen Wilt and Russell play, nor Robinson, or even Dwight Howard for that matter. All those guys could easily catch up with guards, block their shot, and dribble down court for a score in traffic. Jabbar was dominant defensively as well.
So much wrong I don’t know where to begin. Hakeem dominated different centers once in a while. Overall, he didn’t do as well against Robinson through their careers. He was clearly superior to Ewing in head to heads, and has a slight advantage to Shaq when head to head. Look it up.
Russell never had the offensive polish of Duncan. And Russell was miles ahead on defense. Two extremely different players. It’s like saying Barkley is the new Gervin because they were both great forwards.
Drexler in 95 wasn’t even as good as Drexler in 92. He was even taking a back seat to Cliff Robinson during his last days in Portland. This isn’t even funny. Drexler suffered from injuries the last few years, and he no longer was as quick or as athletic as his younger days.
The last paragraph is pure speculation, but saying Horry would have given Pippen trouble in the context of Horry neutralizing Pippen is just asinine. Pippen ate a 75% Worthy alive in 91, and Pippen in 96 was way better than Pippen in 91. Worthy would have destroyed Horry on one leg.
Finally, people don’t realize that the two years the Rockets won the championship were the years the 3-point line was shortened. This is NOT a coincidence, as the Rockets offense was to surround Hakeem with great 3 pt shooters. Credit Hakeem for making crisp passes to the perimeter when he got double teamed (which is pretty much all the time), and credit the shooters for having quick releases, but this was a team that had benefited from a set of rules that catered to them hugely.
I posted the roster for the 95 squad but yea i was expecting most posters to know that thorpe was traded for drexler, and it was one of the greatest trades we have ever made.
And that last phrase you made was pure bullshit. If you can't back it up why bother posting something like that? If the league had indeed shortened the 3 pt line didn't they do that for every team? I don't understand the double standards for the rockets. Spurs fans claim that it was fluky that it was just because of jordan retiring well guess fucking what, what is the 99' championship then?
A poster earlier claimed that the rockets just had a different mentality and it somehow had to do with Jordan. People make way too many excuses.
btw,
During the 1994–95, 1995–96, and 1996-97 seasons, the NBA attempted to address decreased scoring (due to tougher style defenses) by shortening the overall distance of the line to a uniform 22 feet (6.7 m) around the basket. Dennis Scott used this rule change to set a record for most three-pointers in a season: 267 in 1995–96. (This record was surpassed by Ray Allen with 269 in the 2005-06 season.) From the 1997–98 season, the NBA reverted the line to its original distance of 23 feet, 9 inches (22 feet at the corners). With the legalization of zone defense in 2001, the three-point shot became more important, because of its ability to stretch out a zone. Reggie Miller is the all-time NBA leader in total 3-point field goal with 2,560.
Yet people just bag on the rockets for being the only beneficiaries of the rules
The '95 Rockets were okay...they just showed up to play. I think the league kind of thought that everything would come easy without the MJ Bulls....so, most teams took it easy and a 6th seeded team won the NBA Championship. They just wanted it more than anyone else. The 2008 G.S. Warriors had a better regular season record than these guys. So, it goes to show that when no one cares, anyone can show up, make their shots, and win a championship. Without M.J. in the league, easy task...so, credit is due for their championship, but they aren't in the top 10 teams of all time.
This is probably the most decent post you have ever made but...
Like i said, wtf is the 99' championship then? Guess what the spurs only won because jordan retired then.
baseline bum
03-11-2009, 05:30 PM
Additionally, please show me the wings assigned to stop MJ in 91, and the folks he had to defend on the other end.
Yeah, guarding Magic was a fucking piece of cake.
The Franchise
03-11-2009, 05:40 PM
Yeah, guarding Magic was a fucking piece of cake.
Pippen ended up guarding Magic because he was to big for Jordan and was raping him.
nkdlunch
03-11-2009, 06:17 PM
Most overrated team ever, 2008 Houston Rockets
djohn2oo8
03-11-2009, 06:23 PM
Most overrated team ever, 2008 Houston Rockets
Yeah, overrated when no one is talkin about them......:lmao
SpursDynasty
03-11-2009, 06:29 PM
I think this year's Lakers are the most overrated team of all time. They are 50-13, but how good can they be when a scrub Cleveland team has the same record?
Roxsfan
03-11-2009, 06:33 PM
Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell. Sorry...Hakeem is great, and probably falls right below these three...but he's not better than them...no way.
Hakeem had more moves, and had more athleticism in his left pinky's cuticle than all of those players had combined. Those players were great, but they were uncoordinated lumbering goofs compared to Hakeem. As feared as he was on O, he was equally (or more) feared on D.
Roxsfan
03-11-2009, 06:42 PM
how come the rocks never won a title when jordan was playing? they could only win when he retired
How come the spurs did not win when jordan retired?
How come Tim Duncan can't do what Hakeem did and that is to defend their title the following year?
Jordan was there on the second title run......... and what?
The rox would have rolled on those bulls.
Jordan retired b/c he feared Hakeem:wow
baseline bum
03-11-2009, 07:35 PM
Pippen ended up guarding Magic because he was to big for Jordan and was raping him.
Um, no. In games 1,3, and 4 Jordan guarded Magic instead of Pippen at a rate of at least 70/30. Game 2 Jordan guarded him until he got in early foul trouble near the end of the first quarter, at which point Pippen took over the job for the most part (Jordan was in foul trouble the entire game). Not sure about game 5, because I don't have a copy of that one, but your post is either ignorance or flat-out deception.
The Franchise
03-11-2009, 07:40 PM
Um, no. In games 1,3, and 4 Jordan guarded Magic instead of Pippen at a rate of at least 70/30. Game 2 Jordan guarded him until he got in early foul trouble near the end of the first quarter, at which point Pippen took over the job for the most part (Jordan was in foul trouble the entire game). Not sure about game 5, because I don't have a copy of that one, but your post is either ignorance or flat-out deception.
Go look up Magics average Against Jordan when he was guarding him and come back and apologize. If you read my post I said Pippen started guarding him because he was raping Jordan. That is fact.
The Franchise
03-11-2009, 07:42 PM
He obviously didnt see that series. Jordan spent a lot of time on Magic in that series.
I lost money on that series betting on you whores so I think I know what I'm talking about.
Spursfan092120
03-11-2009, 07:43 PM
Reading some of the Rockets fans quotes on in this thread is nauseating. Jordan once said..."People would try and compare Drexler's game to my game, and I wanted to prove that it wasnt even close." And he did just that. Drexler wasnt even half as good as Jordan.
People tend to forget. Hakeem was great, but Kareem was giving Hakeem fits when he was damn there 40. I think Hakeem was probably the most talented centers of all time. But he didnt dominate the game the way Wilt, Russell, and Kareem did for the majority of their careers.
You guys should be happy with those two titles you lucked up on while Jordan was retired and just live with it.
:tu :toast
baseline bum
03-11-2009, 07:46 PM
Go look up Magics average Against Jordan when he was guarding him and come back and apologize. If you read my post I said Pippen started guarding him because he was raping Jordan. That is fact.
No fact, is that Jordan was the primary defender on Magic that series.
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 11:20 PM
I hate to say it, but that team was amazing. They probably are the most underrated team ever. But I don't think they could have beaten every championship team in a seven game series. They certainly would make it interesting against them all.
To clarify, I think those Rockets could have beaten some teams...not all. but my point is if you are going to dismiss them at least have some solid reasoning and not an argument full of garbage...i.e. MJ couldn't be stopped...MJ didn't play...MJ was tired, etc....
kingmalaki
03-11-2009, 11:22 PM
Yeah, guarding Magic was a fucking piece of cake.
MJ checked Magic primarily for Game 1 of the Finals, and they lost. Pippen switched to him in Game 2 and they won the next 4 games. This is basic basketball knowledge for anyone who watched ball during those times. But if you didn't, or don't remember well, you can simply do a google search or go to the NBA.com history page where they break out all of the Finals series up until around 2001 or so....
YellowFever
03-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Underrated ?
No.
Luckiest?
Yep.
baseline bum
03-12-2009, 02:34 AM
MJ checked Magic primarily for Game 1 of the Finals, and they lost. Pippen switched to him in Game 2 and they won the next 4 games. This is basic basketball knowledge for anyone who watched ball during those times. But if you didn't, or don't remember well, you can simply do a google search or go to the NBA.com history page where they break out all of the Finals series up until around 2001 or so....
Pippen switched to him in game 2 only because Jordan got 2 fouls in the first quarter and was in foul trouble for the rest of the game after. By game 3 Jordan was back to being the primary defender on Magic, while Pippen was used for short bursts. I don't give a fuck about your NBA.com page or your revisionist history because I have the full games and I know better.
ambchang
03-12-2009, 08:26 AM
I posted the roster for the 95 squad but yea i was expecting most posters to know that thorpe was traded for drexler, and it was one of the greatest trades we have ever made.
Why would you explicitly say Thorpe when you know that he wasn’t on the playoff roster when that is knowledge so common that you would expect everyone to know?
Here it is, once more.
thats debatable. He was playing better because he was aside Kobe, but he was not a better player. That rockets team was built solid from head to toe just look at the roster. Big names like Otis Thorpe who was an all star, sam cassel, and Vernon Maxwell who shut Jordan down on a n number of occasions
What about Vernon Maxwell? Who do you include in a 7-game series? I would imagine the playoff roster, and definitely not double counting a player who was traded for another significant piece in the middle of the season.
I And that last phrase you made was pure bullshit. If you can't back it up why bother posting something like that? If the league had indeed shortened the 3 pt line didn't they do that for every team? I don't understand the double standards for the rockets. Spurs fans claim that it was fluky that it was just because of jordan retiring well guess fucking what, what is the 99' championship then?
Learn to read better. I said the shortened three point line benefited the Rockets because of their offensive set. A team with a dominant pivot and a bunch of 3 point shooters would benefit more than teams with other offense with a shortened 3 point line, get it?
A poster earlier claimed that the rockets just had a different mentality and it somehow had to do with Jordan. People make way too many excuses
That poster was SpursDynasty, get with the times.
btw,
Yet people just bag on the rockets for being the only beneficiaries of the rules
Reading is FUNdamental.
lefty
03-12-2009, 08:35 AM
Underrated ?
No.
Luckiest?
Yep.
What?
They are one of the best championship teams in the history
jonnybravo
03-12-2009, 08:54 AM
1. Jordan DID PLAY in '95, put up huge numbers, and got beat by the same Magic team that Houston SWEPT that year.
2. the '95 Rockets werent a 'fluke', they were the DEFENDING CHAMPIONS, having beat a Knicks team that gave the bulls fits the year before.
3. the teams they played certainly did 'care', ask stockton, malone, or barkley if they wanted to win that season.
Jordan played 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus.
Are you seriously this dense? 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus. Digest that.
Knicks team? You mean the same Knicks team that an MJ-less team took to 7 games? That one?
He got his shit together and teabagged the rest of the league the following year.
Holy hell that was the dumbest thing I've read. Thank god for sites like Basketball reference so revisionist fucks can't pull shit out of their ass without getting called out.
My gawd, that entire post was so full of half-truths I realized you're just playing around with us.
Haha, I get it! Funny guy!
pauls931
03-12-2009, 09:06 AM
sure, kick the suns some more....
Capt Bringdown
03-12-2009, 09:47 AM
It's no use, there's an entire generation brought up to believe that the NBA begins and ends with Jordan©.
Who cares? The Rockets run was one of the most enjoyable, exciting, inspiring and awesome basketball fan experiences of my life. Ain't nobody taking that away.
Perhaps it's the same for the legions of Bulls fans - maybe. There certainly were a lot of bandwagoners during that era as I recall. The Bulls never interested me, I thought Jordan was a bit of a creep.
Jordan played 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus.
Are you seriously this dense? 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus. Digest that.
Knicks team? You mean the same Knicks team that an MJ-less team took to 7 games? That one?
He got his shit together and teabagged the rest of the league the following year.
Holy hell that was the dumbest thing I've read. Thank god for sites like Basketball reference so revisionist fucks can't pull shit out of their ass without getting called out.
My gawd, that entire post was so full of half-truths I realized you're just playing around with us.
Haha, I get it! Funny guy!
haha yes, he was so 'rusty' that he scored 55 points his 3rd game in :rolleyes
not only that he joined a team that was already one of the top teams in the east.
you dumbshit 'jordan = god and could never ever fail and if he didnt win there must be some excuse' clowns make me laugh
kingmalaki
03-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Pippen switched to him in game 2 only because Jordan got 2 fouls in the first quarter and was in foul trouble for the rest of the game after. By game 3 Jordan was back to being the primary defender on Magic, while Pippen was used for short bursts. I don't give a fuck about your NBA.com page or your revisionist history because I have the full games and I know better.
Wow, we both have the fulls games so we both know better? I guess our eyes see different things.
Pippen switched on Magic in game 2 due to MJ's foul trouble...they saw the effects (i.e. Jordan not having to expend energy checking him, ala how MJ had it every year once Scottie developed)...and stuck with it.
And who was checking MJ? Scott? Worthy, lol. The main point still remains, which you have yet to counter. Hakeem dominated elite bigs in 94 and 95, including 3 dudes who are arguably in the list of top defenders ever at their positions (Ewing, Robinson and Rodman). He did this while having to check them on the other end. In case you still can't grasp it, he put up Jordan numbers in 95....against dominant pivots. So why could he not do the same against the stiffs Chicago had? Does Jordan's 35 on 48% count more than Hakeem's 35 on 53%? Do they award an extra half point for every bucket MJ scores or something? Because if not, I see two players who no one can stop...with the only difference being the Rockets defenders were no worse than the dudes MJ put up 35 a night on....but the Bulls pivots on the other hand....
kingmalaki
03-12-2009, 03:28 PM
Jordan played 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus.
Yep, and his playoff numbers were better than his numbers from the 2nd 3-peat.
Are you seriously this dense? 17 fucken games after a 1.5 year hiatus. Digest that.
How hard is it to digest that his playoff numbers were better than his numbers from the 2nd 3-peat? Please make me understand why 17 games matters when you drop 55 in your 3rd game back and put up better numbers than you did for the next 3 seasons???
Knicks team? You mean the same Knicks team that an MJ-less team took to 7 games? That one?
Yeah..it's easy to drop 55. It only took what, 14 years for someone to go in there and drop more. :lol
He got his shit together and teabagged the rest of the league the following year.
Does getting his shit together include him convincing Dennis Rodman to join the team, since not having a PF is why they lost in 95? Or does this significant difference not click for you? 91-93...PF. 95...no PF...wings leading the team in rebounds (yeah, that's a way to win). 96-98...PF.
baseline bum
03-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Wow, we both have the fulls games so we both know better? I guess our eyes see different things.
Pippen switched on Magic in game 2 due to MJ's foul trouble...they saw the effects (i.e. Jordan not having to expend energy checking him, ala how MJ had it every year once Scottie developed)...and stuck with it.
And who was checking MJ? Scott? Worthy, lol. The main point still remains, which you have yet to counter. Hakeem dominated elite bigs in 94 and 95, including 3 dudes who are arguably in the list of top defenders ever at their positions (Ewing, Robinson and Rodman). He did this while having to check them on the other end. In case you still can't grasp it, he put up Jordan numbers in 95....against dominant pivots. So why could he not do the same against the stiffs Chicago had? Does Jordan's 35 on 48% count more than Hakeem's 35 on 53%? Do they award an extra half point for every bucket MJ scores or something? Because if not, I see two players who no one can stop...with the only difference being the Rockets defenders were no worse than the dudes MJ put up 35 a night on....but the Bulls pivots on the other hand....
Then you're just a flat-out liar if you're saying Pippen was the main defender on Magic. I guess you can safely lie like that, knowing I'm not going to post 25 GB of video just to shoot you down beyond any shadow of doubt.
benefactor
03-12-2009, 03:42 PM
This argument can go on forever...and no one can really be right. It would be an epic finals for sure. I think it would come down to which player could dominate the game more...Jordan or Dream. Both would without a doubt have their way.
Why would you explicitly say Thorpe when you know that he wasn’t on the playoff roster when that is knowledge so common that you would expect everyone to know?
Here it is, once more.
What about Vernon Maxwell? Who do you include in a 7-game series? I would imagine the playoff roster, and definitely not double counting a player who was traded for another significant piece in the middle of the season.
Learn to read better. I said the shortened three point line benefited the Rockets because of their offensive set. A team with a dominant pivot and a bunch of 3 point shooters would benefit more than teams with other offense with a shortened 3 point line, get it?
That poster was SpursDynasty, get with the times.
Reading is FUNdamental.
Again, i expected most of the people to know that mad max and thorpe were no longer part of the team. The fact all you're doing is just pointing that out instead of refuting my points just shows the basis of your argument.
Stick with the philosophy of the 3 pt line shortening considering it wasn't shortened both years the rockets won the championship.
During the 1994–95, 1995–96, and 1996-97 seasons, the NBA attempted to address decreased scoring (due to tougher style defenses) by shortening the overall distance of the line to a uniform 22 feet (6.7 m) around the basket. Dennis Scott used this rule change to set a record for most three-pointers in a season:
Obviously though, every rule change benefits the rockets and you just aren't man enough to accept they won fair and square. I guess reading being fundamental really explains a lot about your rudimentary claims. :lol
That other poster that said that wasn't Spursdynasty it was jacksommerset, so congrats on making yourself look like an ignorant ass, and again reading is "Fundamental," and get with the times dude.
ambchang
03-12-2009, 05:37 PM
Again, i expected most of the people to know that mad max and thorpe were no longer part of the team. The fact all you're doing is just pointing that out instead of refuting my points just shows the basis of your argument.
What in the world are you talking about? Since Mad Max and Thorpe were not on the team, and you expect everyone to know that, you pointed out that the 95 Rockets team was a solid team with “Big names like Otis Thorpe who was an all star, sam cassel, and Vernon Maxwell who shut Jordan down on a n number of occasions”. How does these two even coexist?
And why would I have to refute your point when you are not even sure what your own point was? For all I could understand, I DID refute your point by pointing out that counting Thorpe and Maxwell was not correct in assessing how the 95 Rockets would fare against other teams since neither of them were on the playoff roster.
Stick with the philosophy of the 3 pt line shortening considering it wasn't shortened both years the rockets won the championship.
Obviously though, every rule change benefits the rockets and you just aren't man enough to accept they won fair and square. I guess reading being fundamental really explains a lot about your rudimentary claims. :lol
But it did in 95. And 95 rockets were very different from the 94 rockets. In fact, the NBA had to shorten the three point line because scoring was atrocious in the previous season. The Rockets were an inside out team that was heavily reliant on 3 point shooting, there really wasn’t any question to that, and by having a shorter 3 point line, it would benefit teams that shoots lots of 3 pointers. It’s just simple logic.
Of course, as stated earlier, it would be still depend on the ability of an inside player that can pass as well as Hakeem on double teams, and people with quick releases like Horry, Cassell and Smith, but a team like the Rockets would benefit the most. Kudos to them for winning the championship that year, but that year was very different from the rest (except the following two) because of the shortened 3 point line that makes offense and defense different from the other NBA seasons.
Back to your comprehension skills, I explicitly stated the Rockets benefited from the shortened 3 point line by stating that they were a team that was reliant on 3 point shooting. You somehow interpreted that as saying that only the Rockets benefited.
That other poster that said that wasn't Spursdynasty it was jacksommerset, so congrats on making yourself look like an ignorant ass, and again reading is "Fundamental," and get with the times dude.
Really?
The '95 Rockets were okay...they just showed up to play. I think the league kind of thought that everything would come easy without the MJ Bulls....so, most teams took it easy and a 6th seeded team won the NBA Championship. They just wanted it more than anyone else. The 2008 G.S. Warriors had a better regular season record than these guys. So, it goes to show that when no one cares, anyone can show up, make their shots, and win a championship. Without M.J. in the league, easy task...so, credit is due for their championship, but they aren't in the top 10 teams of all time.
And here is your original quote
A poster earlier claimed that the rockets just had a different mentality and it somehow had to do with Jordan. People make way too many excuses.
So SpursDynasty did not say that the rockets had a different mentality by saying that “they just wanted it more than anyone else?” .
So SpursDynasty did not say that it had to do with Jordan when he said “So, it goes to show that when no one cares, anyone can show up, make their shots, and win a championship. Without M.J. in the league, easy task”?
I am not aware that not being read your mind of knowing exactly which poster you were talking about would contribute as ignorance.
What in the world are you talking about? Since Mad Max and Thorpe were not on the team, and you expect everyone to know that, you pointed out that the 95 Rockets team was a solid team with “Big names like Otis Thorpe who was an all star, sam cassel, and Vernon Maxwell who shut Jordan down on a n number of occasions”. How does these two even coexist?
And why would I have to refute your point when you are not even sure what your own point was? For all I could understand, I DID refute your point by pointing out that counting Thorpe and Maxwell was not correct in assessing how the 95 Rockets would fare against other teams since neither of them were on the playoff roster.
But it did in 95. And 95 rockets were very different from the 94 rockets. In fact, the NBA had to shorten the three point line because scoring was atrocious in the previous season. The Rockets were an inside out team that was heavily reliant on 3 point shooting, there really wasn’t any question to that, and by having a shorter 3 point line, it would benefit teams that shoots lots of 3 pointers. It’s just simple logic.
Of course, as stated earlier, it would be still depend on the ability of an inside player that can pass as well as Hakeem on double teams, and people with quick releases like Horry, Cassell and Smith, but a team like the Rockets would benefit the most. Kudos to them for winning the championship that year, but that year was very different from the rest (except the following two) because of the shortened 3 point line that makes offense and defense different from the other NBA seasons.
Back to your comprehension skills, I explicitly stated the Rockets benefited from the shortened 3 point line by stating that they were a team that was reliant on 3 point shooting. You somehow interpreted that as saying that only the Rockets benefited.
Really?
And here is your original quote
So SpursDynasty did not say that the rockets had a different mentality by saying that “they just wanted it more than anyone else?” .
So SpursDynasty did not say that it had to do with Jordan when he said “So, it goes to show that when no one cares, anyone can show up, make their shots, and win a championship. Without M.J. in the league, easy task”?
I am not aware that not being read your mind of knowing exactly which poster you were talking about would contribute as ignorance.
Jordan ruled the league. He played a big ass mind fuck on every team by his superior play. My opinion is just a opinion. The Rockets were the team that said " Fucking Jordan is out, anyone can win the damn thing" They went with that and won. When the greatest player in the history of the game came back, the Rockets motivational theme left the building. They fell in line with everyone else.
I don't know but i guess that doesn't sound like the "Winning just based on the jordan leaving mentality" i was talking about. :rolleyes
I also said that was probably the most decent post SpursDynasty ever made and partly agreed with it.
ambchang
03-13-2009, 08:42 AM
I don't know but i guess that doesn't sound like the "Winning just based on the jordan leaving mentality" i was talking about. :rolleyes
I also said that was probably the most decent post SpursDynasty ever made and partly agreed with it.
Did I ever say that Jack Sommerset what you said he did? If you were talking about that, then state it, but fact was SpursDynasty also said it, and I was not wrong in saying that SD did.
I am still interested in seeing your take on the Thorpe/Maxwell comment, and how a shortened 3-pt line didn’t help a team that has a team with an offense heavily reliant on the 3-pt shot.
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