No Duncan...no Gooden?

[benefactor]

First, let me congratulate Oberto on a good game. He played well tonight and stepped up for us in the minutes he was in there.

That said, Gooden needed the minutes tonight. I'm not sure what the reason is...but for the life of me I cannot come up with a good one. We only have so many games to get him acclimated to what we do. No reason to get pissed at Gooden if he doesn't know the system...because it's hard to learn it from the bench.

[Thomas82]

First, let me congratulate Oberto on a good game. He played well tonight and stepped up for us in the minutes he was in there.

That said, Gooden needed the minutes tonight. I'm not sure what the reason is...but for the life of me I cannot come up with a good one. We only have so many games to get him acclimated to what we do. No reason to get pissed at Gooden if he doesn't know the system...because it's hard to learn it from the bench.

Not only that, but it's also hard to learn on the fly, this late in the season and being so close to the playoffs.

[hater]

typical Pop. will give measly minutes to Gooden. THen in the playoffs when we are getting destroyed by the Lakers, he will insert him and then wonder why the hell he looks so lost.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Maybe his groin flared up?

Put down the razorblades and back away from the ledge.

[Mugen]

my attempt to rationalize:

gooden came in early and had a couple of defensive lapses as well as looked hesitant on a couple of shots. Pop probably realized the importance of the game and went with oberto who knows the system very well. In the second half, pop went with small ball that pretty much erased any chance for gooden to get any mins. Thankfully, Oberto responded well and small ball seemed to work out for the most part and we got a win. I combine his lack of playing time with his getting used to the system/getting back from an injury.

But i am with you guys and am dissapointed that gooden didnt get extended mins in timmy's absence. He's going to be an important part of the playoffs and needs mins in order to feel comfortable out there.

i hope that pop doesnt put gooden into his doghouse so early and shatter any hopes of him being a factor this year.

ugh its just tough to rationalize pop sometime.

[benefactor]

The only other thing it could be is that his groin is bothering him. I would much rather that be the excuse...though it's hard to think it is that fatigued after only playing 15 minutes last night.

[Spursmania]

How long did he actually play tonight? Was it 5-10 minutes?

[timvp]

The Spurs needed the win tonight more than giving Gooden minutes. Oberto was playing better than he has all season and gave the Spurs a better chance to win. On top of that, the T'Wolves were small for most of the game so the size wasn't needed.

Winning > Getting Gooden acclimated

[Mugen]

How long did he actually play tonight? Was it 5-10 minutes?

5 mins. none at all in the second half.

[Mugen]

The Spurs needed the win tonight more than giving Gooden minutes. Oberto was playing better than he has all season and gave the Spurs a better chance to win. On top of that, the T'Wolves were small for most of the game so the size wasn't needed.

Winning > Getting Gooden acclimated

definitely agree with you timvp but i thought they could have accomplished both tonight.

[Brazil]

The Spurs needed the win tonight more than giving Gooden minutes. Oberto was playing better than he has all season and gave the Spurs a better chance to win. On top of that, the T'Wolves were small for most of the game so the size wasn't needed.

Winning > Getting Gooden acclimated

Is it possible to also think about "resting" Gooden because of his injury eventually not totally healed ?

[Thomas82]

The Spurs needed the win tonight more than giving Gooden minutes. Oberto was playing better than he has all season and gave the Spurs a better chance to win. On top of that, the T'Wolves were small for most of the game so the size wasn't needed.

Winning > Getting Gooden acclimated

Since you put it that way, I'm glad we got the win tonight.

[xtremesteven33]

Is it possible to also think about "resting" Gooden because of his injury eventually not totally healed ?



negative.

[Manufan909]

Only knowing what the box score told me, I'd say it was because Fab played so well.

How were KT and Bonner?

[Mugen]

Bonner was 0-6 from 3pt on St. Patrick's Day.

Is there no justice in this world?????

[benefactor]

If its an injury thing, then I am all for it...but any other reason makes no sense. Even if they are going small, Gooden is plenty mobile enough to play small ball and he would punish them on the low block if they continued to stay small.

[timvp]

Is it possible to also think about "resting" Gooden because of his injury eventually not totally healed ?He didn't look hurt (obviously he could have been hurt, I guess we'll find out). To me, it just looked like he was making a lot of mistakes defensively and the Spurs couldn't afford to risk a loss. With Duncan in the lineup, you can count on pulling out a close game against the T'Wolves. Without Duncan and Manu, you have go all out for the win.

Gooden still has another month before the playoffs begin so there's no reason to rush the process. He now gets a couple of good practices in before the Spurs play again and Pop can continue easing him into the rotation.

[benefactor]

definitely agree with you timvp but i thought they could have accomplished both tonight.
:tu

[ducks]

gooden back to back
and gooden is still not 100% heathy yet either

[benefactor]

He didn't look hurt (obviously he could have been hurt, I guess we'll find out). To me, it just looked like he was making a lot of mistakes defensively and the Spurs couldn't afford to risk a loss. With Duncan in the lineup, you can count on pulling out a close game against the T'Wolves. Without Duncan and Manu, you have go all out for the win.

Gooden still has another month before the playoffs begin so there's no reason to rush the process. He now gets a couple of good practices in before the Spurs play again and Pop can continue easing him into the rotation.
So he is benched for the whole game for 5 minutes worth of defensive mistakes in a defensive scheme he is unfamiliar with? At least give him a shot to redeem himself in the second half.

[timvp]

If its an injury thing, then I am all for it...but any other reason makes no sense. Even if they are going small, Gooden is plenty mobile enough to play small ball and he would punish them on the low block if they continued to stay small.Do you think that playing Gooden gave the Spurs a better chance to win? If you do, I'd have to disagree. It's no mistake that the Spurs were outscored by ten points with Gooden on the court. Against a smallish team that utilizes a lot of back picks, your bigmen have to know where to rotate. You play Gooden at this point and Minnesota's offense would have been difficult to contain.

[ducks]

also if gooden plays alot and he fails he loses his confidence
let him ease into it
the other bigs were doing well

the other bigs will suck against lakers
gooden can not

[EricB]

Gooden's defense tonight was not suprisingly atrocious and Oberto and others were just playing better.

That simple.

[Thomas82]

do you think that playing gooden gave the spurs a better chance to win? If you do, i'd have to disagree. It's no mistake that the spurs were outscored by ten points with gooden on the court. Against a smallish team that utilizes a lot of back picks, your bigmen have to know where to rotate. You play gooden at this point and minnesota's offense would have been difficult to contain.

+1

[benefactor]

Do you think that playing Gooden gave the Spurs a better chance to win? If you do, I'd have to disagree. It's no mistake that the Spurs were outscored by ten points with Gooden on the court. Against a smallish team that utilizes a lot of back picks, your bigmen have to know where to rotate. You play Gooden at this point and Minnesota's offense would have been difficult to contain.
We didn't even try to utilize him on the low block. Almost all the plays that were run for him were out of the high pick and pop and the Wolves were sniffing it out.

As far as defense goes...yes, he is going to miss rotations. You go over it with him at the half and give him another shot in the third quarter. This is called teaching...something Pop was obviously uninterested in doing tonight.

[timvp]

This is called teaching...something Pop was obviously uninterested in doing tonight.And for good reason. No Tim. No Manu. Second game of a back-to-back. Western Conference standings tightening up.

You go for the win, not the education.

[45 bank shot]

We didn't even try to utilize him on the low block. Almost all the plays that were run for him were out of the high pick and pop and the Wolves were sniffing it out.

As far as defense goes...yes, he is going to miss rotations. You go over it with him at the half and give him another shot in the third quarter. This is called teaching...something Pop was obviously uninterested in doing tonight.

Is he ever interested. Hate to remind u of Beno and even barry who merely becomes a spot-up shooter

[sananspursfan21]

don't worry about it. pops knows just what he's doing

[Manufan909]

Is he ever interested. Hate to remind u of Beno and even barry who merely becomes a spot-up shooter

Yes, did you not see last nights game, or the Rockets game especially. Pop just needs to run some post plays for him. That's something I know Pop did in H-town.

[crc21209]

Do you think that playing Gooden gave the Spurs a better chance to win? If you do, I'd have to disagree. It's no mistake that the Spurs were outscored by ten points with Gooden on the court. Against a smallish team that utilizes a lot of back picks, your bigmen have to know where to rotate. You play Gooden at this point and Minnesota's offense would have been difficult to contain.

This has to be the right reason why. At this point after losing last night against OKC we needed a win really bad to stay at #2 and hold our leads against the teams chasing us. So since Fab and KT were playing so well, we kept them out there and sat Gooden since he can still learn the system and everything as time passes some, whether in other games or practices also. Plus, Minny was playing alot of small ball tonight so no reason to throw him out there.

[AussieFanKurt]

Kurt had a good game
10 pts, 10 rebs and 6 assts

[angelbelow]

its too bad gooden wasnt as effective as he and probably the rest of the spurs fans hoped. hope this was a valuable learning experience for him.

[Manufan909]

Which game did Gooden have a putback dunk?

[ulosturedge]

The offense wasn't working with Gooden out there. And the fact that they were putting Tony on lockdown made it even more evident. Spurs needed alot of picks and ball movement to get there offense going and when Gooden was out there it just didn't look like things were working. Deciding weather to throw a screen or look for the ball in the lowpost; he just wasn't sure which to do. His teamates just need more time to get use to him and vice versa. Kudos to Pop for recognizing it and letting Fab help us get this win.

[HarlemHeat37]

Gooden is gonna need some practice with the team..how many practices with the team has he had? anybody know? it can't be much..

[Manufan909]

Gooden is gonna need some practice with the team..how many practices with the team has he had? anybody know? it can't be much..

Not many, all they've said is he's practiced with George Hairston, and training staff.

And to whoever thought Gooden looked lost on O, I hope he goes to the post, it sure as hell worked to a T in Houston. Quick question, who do y'all think is the best backup big to have with Gooden? My pick would be KT.

[Baseline]

Yes, Pop should have played Gooden more tonight. He should have played him longer against OK City - if he had, we would have won. But I think he was trying to prove some kind of point. He's also trying to prove some kind of point by allowing Bowen to rot on the bench instead of giving him minutes this year. Not a smart move. He's giving Udoka minutes he should be giving Bowen. Also not a smart move. Bowen is shooting 43% from three-point range this year. That's a tremendous percentage - which should be earning Bowen minutes. Instead, he's sitting on the bench watching Udoka clank jumper after jumper, after committing foul after foul.

Bottom line...Pop is not a genius.

He has a good system defensively, but more importantly he has Tim Duncan anchoring that defense and defending the rim for the last ten years. Duncan can make any defense look good, but he makes Pop's system look great.

Pop is not a great game coach, and we all know his substitution patterns are often nonsensical - to everybody but himself. Our offense down the stretch in close games has been so predictable for years that it's embarrassing. Manu's creativity is the only thing that saves us from being an Atari program in a league of Playstation 2 offenses.

I think Pop is too often guilty of being stubborn and unwilling to change...i.e. taking a long time to just let Manu be Manu, always going with vets (to a fault...Van Exel, etc.) over younger and more athletic players, etc. There just aren't a ton of guys in the league who will play for a totalitarian regime like Pop runs. Fortunately for us, Tim Duncan and Parker and Manu are okay with that. Amazingly.

[raspsa]

I think Pop is giving Gooden time to heal. It doesn't make sense to give him extended minutes only to risk aggravating the injury. Smae thing applies to Manu, Timmy also.. the playoffs are fast approaching and Pop is going to be very conservative when it comes to players' health.

[benefactor]

its too bad gooden wasnt as effective as he and probably the rest of the spurs fans hoped. hope this was a valuable learning experience for him.
I am so glad we are teaching him a lesson by benching him when he has only played two games with any kind of meaningful minutes. :rolleyes

And for good reason. No Tim. No Manu. Second game of a back-to-back. Western Conference standings tightening up.

You go for the win, not the education.
It's going to be tight the rest of the way. I don't see that as a good reason.

Look...I am not saying you keep him in there while Rome burns, but at least give him a shot in the 3rd. If he is still looking like he is not working out matchup-wise then go back to Oberto/Thomas. It's not much to ask from a coach that rides Finley into the fire without seeing the flames.

[spurspokesman]

And for good reason. No Tim. No Manu. Second game of a back-to-back. Western Conference standings tightening up.

You go for the win, not the education.

:toast Exactly. Last night didn't warrant A major need for him. Plus the fact that if he reinjures himself and can't play for an extended period of time they will feel like they wasted money. Give him A few minutes here and there and work him in and rest him when he's not really needed.

[exstatic]

Yes, Pop should have played Gooden more tonight. He should have played him longer against OK City - if he had, we would have won. But I think he was trying to prove some kind of point. He's also trying to prove some kind of point by allowing Bowen to rot on the bench instead of giving him minutes this year. Not a smart move. He's giving Udoka minutes he should be giving Bowen. Also not a smart move. Bowen is shooting 43% from three-point range this year. That's a tremendous percentage - which should be earning Bowen minutes. Instead, he's sitting on the bench watching Udoka clank jumper after jumper, after committing foul after foul.

Bottom line...Pop is not a genius.

He has a good system defensively, but more importantly he has Tim Duncan anchoring that defense and defending the rim for the last ten years. Duncan can make any defense look good, but he makes Pop's system look great.

Pop is not a great game coach, and we all know his substitution patterns are often nonsensical - to everybody but himself. Our offense down the stretch in close games has been so predictable for years that it's embarrassing. Manu's creativity is the only thing that saves us from being an Atari program in a league of Playstation 2 offenses.

I think Pop is too often guilty of being stubborn and unwilling to change...i.e. taking a long time to just let Manu be Manu, always going with vets (to a fault...Van Exel, etc.) over younger and more athletic players, etc. There just aren't a ton of guys in the league who will play for a totalitarian regime like Pop runs. Fortunately for us, Tim Duncan and Parker and Manu are okay with that. Amazingly.

We had enough defensive lapses without Gooden in there. I think the loss probably had something to do with shooting 3-19 from 3 point land, or something like that. Gonna blame that one on Pop, too?

[tmtcsc]

We can't afford to lose the games we are supposed to win. It made sense to keep Oberto in the line-up. He was playing good...gooder....goodest....better than gooden.

[hater]

Winning > Getting Gooden acclimated

winning a regular season game > getting Godden acclimated for the playoffs???

nope.

Spurs did not need a win badly. why would they?

[VI_Massive]

winning a regular season game > getting Godden acclimated for the playoffs???

nope.

Spurs did not need a win badly. why would they?

to keep our lead over houston and others below us. our seeding isn't the end all and be all, but we definitely want to try and keep home court in the early rounds. also losing two games in a row to bad teams would have been poor for morale, momentum, etc.

[hater]

to keep our lead over houston and others below us. our seeding isn't the end all and be all, but we definitely want to try and keep home court in the early rounds. also losing two games in a row to bad teams would have been poor for morale, momentum, etc.

Do you really think keeping 2nd seeding as opposed to 3rd seed is more critical than getting Gooden comfortable in the spurs system?

[mexicanjunior]

What is the over/under on how quickly Gooden starts to complain about his role (or lack of it) on this team?

[Chomag]

And for good reason. No Tim. No Manu. Second game of a back-to-back. Western Conference standings tightening up.

You go for the win, not the education.

I believe I'll have to disagree with you here. How I see it, getting players ready for the playoffs outweighs winning games at this point. Especially for a player joining the team so late in the season that is expected to be an impact for our playoff run this year.

[Russ]

Pop may want to keep Gooden hungry and not taking things for granted. Once Gooden gets a solid spot in the rotation, the ability to teach and motivate him -- to challenge his limitations -- may go down.

[timvp]

Got damn some Spurs fans are somehow spoiled and overconfident at the same time. Now winning a game on the second night of a back to back without Tim and Manu isn't good enough. The Spurs have to win the game on the second night of a back to back without Tim and Manu while basing the rotation not on who is playing well but who needs to learn the most.

And a win wasn't important? Last playoffs proved how much harder it is to win without homecourt advantage. There's a gigantic difference between a two seed and a three seed. I'm glad Pop realizes that and didn't treat last night like a summer league game as some Spurs fans apparently wanted. And I'm sure those same Spurs fans would be the ones complaining if the Spurs lost.

[JoshO501]

i hope timmy plays on tuesday im driving 8 hours to see that game.

[Russ]

What is the over/under on how quickly Gooden starts to complain about his role (or lack of it) on this team?

Of course, that is what Pop is trying to find out.

And he only has a few weeks to do it (before the summer and FA signings).

It's a right of passage with all Spurs not named Duncan. The shorter the time to do it, the more draconian and frustrating to the player Pop's tactics may be.

Gooden looks to be popular on the bench in a way that someone like Big Dog Robinson never was. So I would guess Pop likes him too.

He looks to be well on his way to passing the test and becoming "a Spur." :)

[EJK5032]

Gooden has been dealing with an injured groin and abdominal muscle all season.......he's finally starting to get healthy......there is no reason to play him or Duncan in a meaningless back to back against the TWolves, a team we should have no problem beating anyhow.

[superbigtime]

typical Pop. will give measly minutes to Gooden. THen in the playoffs when we are getting destroyed by the Lakers, he will insert him and then wonder why the hell he looks so lost.

So true.

[taps]

Seeing our 3 bigs play so well (Bon-bon was cold from 3 but still managed 8, 6, 1stl, 1bl) makes makes me more confident in the depth of our front court as Tim and Drew on a normal night are known quantities in the paint. It bodes well for the versatility of our 5-headed monster at the 4 & 5.

[EricB]

:lol

So true, dorks sitting at home behind a computer think they know more than a goddamn championship winning coach.


Fucking Spurs fans.

[wildbill2u]

If Pop can juggle the minutes to give everyone some playing time between now and the playoffs--and still maintain the #2 spot--we will be in much better shape when the playoffs come.

We'll have some depth and some rested players like Gooden and Tim who are having physical problems.

So far so gooden for the playoffs.

[hater]

:lol

So true, dorks sitting at home behind a computer think they know more than a goddamn championship winning coach.


Fucking Spurs fans.

So true, Tpark thinking he's better than everyone else in this forum and throwing insults. THis is a FORUM where we are supposed to post what we think is best for the team dumbass. You can change the username but you can't change the asshole.

Fucking TPark.

[Chomag]

Heh, come now you know Tpark is the only one allowed to state his opinion on something here. God! get it right! :p:


It's so easy being a tough guy behind a computer and attempt to insult everone. Heh, I would love to see him try it face to face in real life to half the posters here.

[exstatic]

:lol

So true, dorks sitting at home behind a computer think they know more than a goddamn championship winning coach.


Fucking Spurs fans.

At least we don't have one of these knee-jerk fools owning and running our team like Dallas does. :lol

[MrChug]

Maybe his groin flared up?

I was just watching Angelina Jolie and my groin flared up. Maybe he was watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith or something?

[timvp]

Am I the only one who thinks the Spurs would have won their last two games if Oberto would have gotten Gooden's minutes. Not that I've given up on Gooden but Oberto helps de-stagnate the offense and his passing helps to give Duncan easier shots. Right now, Gooden learning on the fly is hurting the team.

Holding out Gooden's "education" to when Manu returns was likely the better move .... in hindsight, of course.

Well, that is unless Spurs fans think the last two losses were worth Gooden getting extra time in the system. Was it?

[benefactor]

I would go more along the lines of Oberto getting Bonner's minutes in this game. He hurt us just as badly if not worse.

[Spurs Brazil]

Am I the only one who thinks the Spurs would have won their last two games if Oberto would have gotten Gooden's minutes. Not that I've given up on Gooden but Oberto helps de-stagnate the offense and his passing helps to give Duncan easier shots. Right now, Gooden learning on the fly is hurting the team.

Holding out Gooden's "education" to when Manu returns was likely the better move .... in hindsight, of course.

Well, that is unless Spurs fans think the last two losses were worth Gooden getting extra time in the system. Was it?

Oberto did that in Wolves game. If he play some minutes in place of Bonner or Gooden I won't complain

[polandprzem]

Am I the only one who thinks the Spurs would have won their last two games if Oberto would have gotten Gooden's minutes. Not that I've given up on Gooden but Oberto helps de-stagnate the offense and his passing helps to give Duncan easier shots. Right now, Gooden learning on the fly is hurting the team.

Holding out Gooden's "education" to when Manu returns was likely the better move .... in hindsight, of course.

Well, that is unless Spurs fans think the last two losses were worth Gooden getting extra time in the system. Was it?

A suicidal (the one that kills) question :)

I do think that Oberto is better when paired with Tim then Bonner.
We haven't seen Gooden with Tim on the floor yet, so Pop probably won't use that frontcourt in this season.

Was it wirth losing those games helping Drew to educate the spurs system?
Well, we were able to win those games and we do not know if Oberto would guarantee those wins.

[timvp]

I would go more along the lines of Oberto getting Bonner's minutes in this game. He hurt us just as badly if not worse.Can't agree. Gooden has been the run stopper the last two games for the Spurs. He comes in and any momentum dies.

But I guess some Spurs fans think his education is worth risking losses.

[benefactor]

Oh, and playing Gooden side by side with Bonner didn't help things either.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with the thought that he should get Bonner's minutes..

Bonner's looking good from inside the 3-point line, but we don't need him for that..if his 3 isn't going down, then he really doesn't help us much..I'd rather have Gooden learn ahead of having Bonner play, even if he knows the system better..

it's definitely strange that Fab isn't getting a chance after that good game that he had the other night..

[timvp]

Bonner is more helpful to the team is than Gooden is right now. Again, it's not a knock on Gooden but looking back on it, I don't think giving him some token minutes the last two games was a good risk/reward proposition.

[benefactor]

Can't agree. Gooden has been the run stopper the last two games for the Spurs. He comes in and any momentum dies.

But I guess some Spurs fans think his education is worth risking losses.
For the record, I agree with Pop not putting Gooden back in during the second half. You are kidding yourself if you think that Bonner's horrible defense of Scola was any worse than anything Gooden did in the first half.

[Spurs Brazil]

Can't agree. Gooden has been the run stopper the last two games for the Spurs. He comes in and any momentum dies.

But I guess some Spurs fans think his education is worth risking losses.

That's true.

I think he and Mason together it's just a bad combination. Mason is lost at PG and Gooden is lost because he's new to the system.

Mason good game against Wolves had Oberto getting a lot of open looks to him

[Capt Bringdown]

Am I the only one who thinks the Spurs would have won their last two games if Oberto would have gotten Gooden's minutes. Not that I've given up on Gooden but Oberto helps de-stagnate the offense and his passing helps to give Duncan easier shots. Right now, Gooden learning on the fly is hurting the team.


I guess at this point you throw everything at the wall an hope that something sticks, but there's a reason why Oberto has barely made it off the bench this season.

We have little choice to go with Gooden because Oberto is a non-factor. Especially so in the playoffs.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with your point in general timvp, but at some point, we're gonna need to get Gooden accustomed to the system..

Gooden as a player is more valuable to us than Bonner..we've seen flashes of what Gooden can bring to the team..the fact that we got him so late in the season obviously hurts, since we're having to test him out during big games like these..

regardless of Gooden playing..there's no way a team should miss 6 FTs in a row, or lose a 7-point lead to the offensively average Rockets late in the game..

[objective]

I don't think Gooden is a run stopper as much as Mason running the offense is. He's either a turnover or a bad play or a lost ball or a drive into a blocked shot or brick when he's in charge.

That being said, Gooden is proving my thoughts about him pre-signing. He's just not better than an old and broken down Kurt Thomas.

And winning these last two games with Oberto instead . . . inconsequential imo, because the Spurs won't win the title this year with any of these bigs next to Duncan.

[ploto]

We knew the problem would go back to being too many bigs and not enough minutes. How do you find time for all 5 guys? I think, though, that Scola was a perfect opportunity to play Oberto- just like Gasol was. And for a Spurs team that has struggled on offense, they miss a back-up big who can pass the ball like Oberto. Wouldn't Scola look good in there when Duncan sits?

[polandprzem]

IMO spurs problem right now it's not single players is the whole philosophy of how they play.

It is like they are put in a machine and they need to work perfect not to colapse. And right now they are not working perfectly.
Then we do get stagnant offense and opponents D crushes on us.
It's game over because all the players get frustrated they can't click right and they are wasting the energy on not necessery things.


btw. At this time of year Pop usualy had set his playoffs rotation. Right now we do not even know who will be backing up Tony. Gorge, manu or Roger and what roles they will do have in different lineups.

I'm getting worried

[benefactor]

I agree with your point in general timvp, but at some point, we're gonna need to get Gooden accustomed to the system..

Gooden as a player is more valuable to us than Bonner..we've seen flashes of what Gooden can bring to the team..the fact that we got him so late in the season obviously hurts, since we're having to test him out during big games like these..

regardless of Gooden playing..there's no way a team should miss 6 FTs in a row, or lose a 7-point lead to the offensively average Rockets late in the game..
Exactly. You can't point back at the 7 minutes Gooden played and say it was because of him we lost the game. Bonner's bad D and Pop's funky lineup late in the game were much more to blame.

[timvp]

For the record, I agree with Pop not putting Gooden back in during the second half.Wasn't that same decision the basis for this thread?


You are kidding yourself if you think that Bonner's horrible defense of Scola was any worse than anything Gooden did in the first half.Bonner got abused by Scola in the first half. In the second half, Scola mostly abused Duncan. Bonner held his own against Scola in the second half for the most part after getting curbstomped in the first two quarters.

[timvp]

I agree with your point in general timvp, but at some point, we're gonna need to get Gooden accustomed to the system..The question is whether that time is now. Does Gooden playing help the Spurs win games at the moment? If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?

[polandprzem]

The question is whether that time is now. Does Gooden playing help the Spurs win games at the moment? If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?

How is Drews +/- ?

Is he as bad?

[HarlemHeat37]

The question is whether that time is now. Does Gooden playing help the Spurs win games at the moment? If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?

IMO yes..we just lost a game to Boston because of something you'll never see again in an NBA game..we lost to Houston due to a huge choke job down the stretch..

we're still in these games, despite Gooden learning..we SHOULD have won both games..

I see where you're coming from though..I don't mind having Gooden play more against teams we should easily beat, like non-playoff teams..a month is a long time..

he's also a better finisher than any of our non-Duncan bigs, and that's without question..so I think he'll look better playing with Manu, as opposed to guys that can't pass like Mason and Finley..

[benefactor]

Wasn't that same decision the basis for this thread?

In a different game with different circumstances. I was of the opinion that he might have played better in the Minnesota game if at least given another shot to atone for his mistakes in the first half. We also had no Duncan, which further fueled my opinion in that game. I also stated earlier in the thread that if he started to look like he was not picking it up then I was all for putting him back on the bench.


Bonner got abused by Scola in the first half. In the second half, Scola mostly abused Duncan. Bonner held his own against Scola in the second half for the most part after getting curbstomped in the first two quarters.
But the same logic that you use by not wanting to put Gooden in could also be used for Bonner. We all watched him get smashed by Scola in the first half...so why not give Oberto a try? The door swings both ways.

[timvp]

But the same logic that you use by not wanting to put Gooden in could also be used for Bonner. We all watched him get smashed by Scola in the first half...so why not give Oberto a try? The door swings both ways.Giving Oberto more time isn't what I'm contemplating. The question is whether or not Gooden is helping. If you think Gooden is helping more than Bonner, which I disagree with, then I guess that's the direction you can go.

IMO, Bonner knowing the system gives the Spurs a better chance to get the W, even though Gooden is likely the better player if all things are equal.

[Capt Bringdown]

If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?

Isn't that why we signed him? We have a deficiency that is created by Oberto. He's the problem, not the solution.

If not, why bother with Gooden?

[benefactor]

Giving Oberto more time isn't what I'm contemplating. The question is whether or not Gooden is helping. If you think Gooden is helping more than Bonner, which I disagree with, then I guess that's the direction you can go.

IMO, Bonner knowing the system gives the Spurs a better chance to get the W, even though Gooden is likely the better player if all things are equal.
It's a bit of a catch 22. It may take time for Gooden to really be able to help, but he cannot help if he does not learn. I think trying him in stretches like we saw today should not dictate whether or not we have a chance win.

You had initially stated when you bumped this thread that you felt like Oberto might have given us a better chance to win if he had gotten Gooden's minutes...and you might be right. But one could just as easily say that giving Oberto some of Bonner's minutes could yield the same result.

[Blackjack]

The question is whether that time is now. Does Gooden playing help the Spurs win games at the moment? If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?

Yes. Frankly, there's really no other option.

Pop's got to do what he's already done with Hairston, and come to some conclusions on who is, and who's not, going to be playing come playoff time. No one wants to lose games and fall back in the standings, but if you don't do it now, when do you?

Times running out, and if the guys you need come playoff time are still learning playbooks or how to play together during the post-season, I don't think it really matters all that much where you are in the standings.

It's championship or bust with this team, so as much as it may not make sense to risk potential seeding with an acclimation by fire, at this point in the season, it's really what needs to be done.

Gooden is going to have to play a significant role for the Spurs to get where they want to go, so they might as well start it now. Record be damned.:depressed

[Capt Bringdown]

Giving Oberto minutes would be a repeat of the NVE scenario all over again.
You know he's not able, but keep pressing the same button in the vain hope that magic somehow might happen.

[timvp]

I think trying him in stretches like we saw today should not dictate whether or not we have a chance win. Interesting theory. If playing in the second quarter doesn't affect the outcome, perhaps Pop can suit up the Coyote during the first half and try to make more money for Holt Cat :smokin

[timvp]

Yes. Frankly, there's really no other option.How about the option of waiting to break out Gooden in important games when Ginobili returns? I don't know if giving him 20 to 30 minutes in these type of games is going to advance him much. Especially when everything will change once Ginobili is back in that second unit.


Pop's got to do what he's already done with Hairston, and come to some conclusions on who is, and who's not, going to be playing come playoff time. I can't equate Hairston's situation and Gooden's situation. Gooden will have a role come playoff time. But I think that delaying his education could have been a better mix of win now and win later.


It's championship or bust with this team, so as much as it may not make sense to risk potential seeding with an acclimation by fire, at this point in the season, it's really what needs to be done.For championship aspirations, I just don't think the Spurs can win the championship with less than a second seed. Winning three series on the road would be too tall of an order.

That's why I'm so much in favor of playing to win now. One more injury or another bad week and the Spurs could find themselves being on the road in the first round.


Gooden is going to have to play a significant role for the Spurs to get where they want to go, so they might as well start it now. Record be damned.:depressedReasonable. Appears to be Pop's thinking as well.

I just don't agree. That second seed is too important and with the bench dynamic changing within the next week or so, the risk/reward of starting Gooden's education now doesn't seem worth it to me.

[benefactor]

Interesting theory. If playing in the second quarter doesn't affect the outcome, perhaps Pop can suit up the Coyote during the first half and try to make more money for Holt Cat :smokin
Too bad the Coyote isn't a 6'10, 250lb solid rebounding/scoring big whose main strike against him is that having to learn a new system and learn the tendencies of his teammates on a 15 game crash course. :toast

[timvp]

Too bad the Coyote isn't a 6'10, 250lb solid rebounding/scoring big whose main strike against him is that having to learn a new system and learn the tendencies of his teammates on a 15 game crash course. :toastAre you measuring to the tips of his ears?:bking

[benefactor]

Are you measuring to the tips of his ears?:bking
Left that out...dammit. :bang:downspin:

[Blackjack]

Giving Oberto minutes would be a repeat of the NVE scenario all over again.
You know he's not able, but keep pressing the same button in the vain hope that magic somehow might happen.

I don't get that analogy, at all.

Oberto is a glue guy, who's play, on the whole, gains net-positives for the teams overall flow and chemistry when he's on the floor. He knows the system offensively and defensively, and if nothing else, usually is not going to get you beat.

NVE was brought in to take Beno out of the equation, after Pop witnessed the Detroit series, but he was an older scorer with an injured elbow, which turns out to be not all that conducive to a guy who's a defensive-liabilty.

[hitmanyr2k]

May as well face it...Popovich is just gonna keep dickin around with his little scatter-brained jekyll and hyde lineups and no one is gonna be in any kind of rhythm when playoff time comes. I'm not sure how Gooden is supposed to develop and learn anything when he's playing the kind of minutes he is.

[Blackjack]

How about the option of waiting to break out Gooden in important games when Ginobili returns? I don't know if giving him 20 to 30 minutes in these type of games is going to advance him much. Especially when everything will change once Ginobili is back in that second unit.

Not much, if anything at all, is going to change defensively when Manu returns. I'm not all that worried about the offensive-end of the floor, but the more time he's out there playing in the scheme, building trust, and learning the games of teammates he's never played with, the better imo.(in the long run, at least)


I can't equate Hairston's situation and Gooden's situation. Gooden will have a role come playoff time. But I think that delaying his education could have been a better mix of win now and win later.

Wasn't really a point about Hairston, just a reference to making a decision and sticking to it. I'm not real happy with that decision, but it's the type of decision that needs to be made, if they're ever going to be able to set a rotation.


For championship aspirations, I just don't think the Spurs can win the championship with less than a second seed. Winning three series on the road would be too tall of an order.

That's why I'm so much in favor of playing to win now. One more injury or another bad week and the Spurs could find themselves being on the road in the first round.

The thing is, I really don't disagree with you. I find it pretty hard to believe they're going to go all '95 Rockets on the leagues ass, but I guess there is a possibility.

With the uncertainty of the Big 3's health and the overall continuity of the team in flux, I just feel that Gooden's success has gone from what would have been a luxury (under normal circumstances) into much more of a necessity.

Getting him up to speed at the expense of seeding isn't ideal, to say the least, but it sure seems like it's what's needed to be done under the circumstance.


Reasonable. Appears to be Pop's thinking as well.

I just don't agree. That second seed is too important and with the bench dynamic changing within the next week or so, the risk/reward of starting Gooden's education now doesn't seem worth it to me.

Completely understand where you're coming from, it just seems to me the that the only prospect for a reward at the end of the tunnel for this team, is if all hands are on deck and in sync, as soon as possible.

Again, not ideal, but really seems to be their best shot imo.

[objective]

How about the option of waiting to break out Gooden in important games when Ginobili returns? I don't know if giving him 20 to 30 minutes in these type of games is going to advance him much. Especially when everything will change once Ginobili is back in that second unit.

That could be the problem right there. The Spurs were hoping/expecting Manu to have been playing two weeks ago. There's still no firm date for his return. If they were waiting on Ginobili playing to break out Gooden they could possibly be waiting until opening night in the 2009/2010 season if Ginobili has a setback.