Israel troops admit Gaza abuses [Archive]

sook

03-20-2009, 02:34 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

The climate in general [was that] lives of Palestinians are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers
Soldier testimony

Analysis: Operation Miscast Lead?
Gaza war crimes probes

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

FROM THE BBC WORLD SERVICE

More from BBC World Service

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.

"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.

Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.
A wounded Palestinian child is carried into the Kamal Adwan hospital after an Israeli air strike on 11 January 2009
Palestinian civilians paid a heavy price during the three-week Israeli operation

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.

The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.

Yonivore

03-20-2009, 02:44 PM

Wake me when the Palestinian Authority starts investigating atrocities committed by Hamas.

sook

03-20-2009, 02:48 PM

Wake me when the Palestinian Authority starts investigating atrocities committed by Hamas.

Why are you associating Hamas with the Palest. so readily? Hamas opens fire on Palestenians openly in public. They get their weapons from Iran leaving the weak palest. government defenseless. Even after all that supporting them doesn't seem to hard a task when Israel kills 1300 people in a three week span.:rolleyes

Some of you people are so staid it is frightening.

Yonivore

03-20-2009, 02:54 PM

RandomGuy

03-20-2009, 03:24 PM

Wake me when the Palestinian Authority starts investigating atrocities committed by Hamas.

Bit of a double standard isn't it?

Your implication that we should only be concerned about Israeli abuses if the Palestinians are investigated too smacks of hypocrisy.

Either the abuses are wrong or they aren't.

This is why people who think like you totally fail when it comes to actually fighting "terrorism".

The thing I find ironic is that you think yourself to be a moral person, but give up the powerful tool of moral authority without hesitation.

Yonivore

03-20-2009, 03:33 PM

Bit of a double standard isn't it?

Your implication that we should only be concerned about Israeli abuses if the Palestinians are investigated too smacks of hypocrisy.

Either the abuses are wrong or they aren't.

This is why people who think like you totally fail when it comes to actually fighting "terrorism".

The thing I find ironic is that you think yourself to be a moral person, but give up the powerful tool of moral authority without hesitation.
No, my implication is that the outrage is one-sided.

And, just from reading the article, it is subjective that abuses even occurred;

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.
The first could be an accident or some other provoked action, there's no context. And in the second, the speaker "described what he saw as," leaving it open that his perspective could be subjective and have an opposing view.

Besides, both incidents are being investigated. Which has, in the past, led to the imprisonment of Israeli soldiers. Has that ever happened on the Palestinian side?

johnsmith

03-20-2009, 03:46 PM

RandomGuy

03-20-2009, 03:57 PM

No, my implication is that the outrage is one-sided.

And, just from reading the article, it is subjective that abuses even occurred;

The first could be an accident or some other provoked action, there's no context. And in the second, the speaker "described what he saw as," leaving it open that his perspective could be subjective and have an opposing view.

Besides, both incidents are being investigated. Which has, in the past, led to the imprisonment of Israeli soldiers. Has that ever happened on the Palestinian side?

The fletchette artillery rounds used in densely populated civilian areas are a little less subjective.

For the record:
What the Palestinians do sucks too.

RandomGuy

03-20-2009, 04:00 PM

:lmao Says one of the board libs that is always quick to go the "well, GW did it too, why shouldn't Obama"?

:rollin

Actually I don't.

I haven't used that at all, and have quite clearly criticized Obama for doing some of the same shitty things that Bush did. I just don't jump up and down screaming about it for political purposes, so that tends to get buried in the fluff.

If you like, I can give you a short list of things Obama has done so far that I don't really approve of, some of the wiretapping is a start.

On the balance, I don't expect to 100% approve of everything any president does, but on the balance, Obama has started to reverse most of the things I didn't like that Bush did.

fyatuk

03-20-2009, 04:02 PM

sook

03-20-2009, 04:56 PM

Israeli's are just as bad as Hamas. Some of the crap they've alledgedly (most never even investigated because they don't believe Palestinian testimony is trustworthy) done is horrendous, even before this.

We need to soften our support of Israel, but no one wants to be seen as abandoning the "Holy Land."

Dude that is the general consensus on this board. Everybody knows that, even in washington i mean them pretending not to acknowledge that is not because they are dumb, its because it has a purpose. When you see Olmert brag about how he made Bush follow his orders its not hard to realize we aren't among the tertiary consumers we claim to be.

Winehole23

03-20-2009, 05:40 PM

sook

03-20-2009, 05:45 PM

Just to put it all in context, Yoni will maintain to this day that the US never tortured anyone. I would put that in the same category as I put his surmise that Israel has committed no war crimes whatsoever in Gaza. It proceeds against the plain evidence: the use of white phosphorus (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0114/p07s01-wome.html), to take one very accessible example.

yup, I clearly remembered that, and up till that point the Israeli governemtn claimed they never used it. For most Americans to follow so blindly in Israel's lead is ignorance.

mogrovejo

03-20-2009, 07:38 PM

David Bowie

03-20-2009, 07:55 PM

Let me ask you all this question:

Do you think that if the Palestinians never attack/provoke Israel again, would Israel ever attack the Palestinians ever again? I believe the answer would be "no". I think that there will be peace in the region if Hamas/Palestinians never bothered Israel again.

Yet, the Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, send suicide bombers and capture (and then kill ) Israeli soldiers in exchange for a large number of incarcerated terrorists. THey blow up schools, cafes, etc. Hamas will never stop until it captures all of Israel. the Palestinians were offered half of Israel not that long ago, yet Arafat declined, because it wasn't "all of Israel"

I don't think that Hamas wants peace at all. If Hamas captures all of Israel, and there's peace, then, what's next? Hamas has to impliment a government, give people jobs, institue schools, support the people etc. Even right now, why is Hamas so concentrated on fighting, rather then improving the conditions in which the Palestinian people live. However, all woes of the PAlestinians are ISrael's fault. If there's no Israel and no fighting, and the State of PAlestine fails, then who is accountable?

Yonivore

03-20-2009, 08:00 PM

Get an education:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

And, before you judge it propaganda, please be prepared to say which points are untrue. I think you will have difficulty doing so.

Winehole23

03-20-2009, 08:03 PM

It's the fact that Israel investigates these issues, has an independent judicial branch, that their own military has a checks&balances system, etc, that gives them the moral authority in this confrontation - ...in which they confront the criminality of command, and the cruelty of their own conduct. War is hell, right?

and making any attempt to put both parts as equivalent [is]a moral and political error.Has any such attempt really been made in the thread? The crimes of both sides can be tallied without any reference to respective moral stature.

Cant_Be_Faded

03-21-2009, 01:30 AM

LOL
These guys are such bastardization mini america....it's like
obama says 'i fucked up' and americans let it go, so let's try that too, with war atrocities, that everyone already knew we committed

Lame.

Nbadan

03-21-2009, 02:31 AM

Do you think that if the Palestinians never attack/provoke Israel again, would Israel ever attack the Palestinians ever again? I believe the answer would be "no". I think that there will be peace in the region if Hamas/Palestinians never bothered Israel again.

The larger issue is Israeli expansion into land the Palestinians claim (all those immigrants from Russia gotta live somewhere)....if Israel stopped the expansion and gave up control of Palestinian land....

Nbadan

03-21-2009, 02:34 AM

Yet, the Palestinians fire rockets into Israel

...into disputed territories...Hamas has rockets that could reach Tel Aviv and other Israel cities, but your not hearing about rocket attacks into these cities...

Nbadan

03-21-2009, 02:35 AM

Hamas has to impliment a government, give people jobs, institue schools, support the people etc.

They already do some of that, they are a political party in Lebanon after all....

fyatuk

03-21-2009, 08:50 AM

Dude that is the general consensus on this board. Everybody knows that, even in washington i mean them pretending not to acknowledge that is not because they are dumb, its because it has a purpose. When you see Olmert brag about how he made Bush follow his orders its not hard to realize we aren't among the tertiary consumers we claim to be.

I was bitching about the government not paying any attention (in terms of doing something about it) and just bringing up that this is a drop in the bucket. EVERYONE I know (except a handful of very religious people who have the near standard "All Islamics are terrorists" though) thinks the same thing.

I find it disturbing that that high a percentage of people I know think that, yet it will still continue to be the case. Like SS reform, etc. People want it, but no politician wants to be the one to push it.

Yonivore

03-21-2009, 09:01 AM

...into disputed territories...Hamas has rockets that could reach Tel Aviv and other Israel cities, but your not hearing about rocket attacks into these cities...
Sderot, struck by over 7,500 rockets since 2001 is in Israel proper and has never been in a "disputed" territory -- unless, of course, you take the position of Hamas who says all of Israel is in dispute and that the Jews should be run into the ocean...etc...with which, I gather, Nbadan concurs.

Yonivore

03-21-2009, 09:29 AM

Just to put it all in context, Yoni will maintain to this day that the US never tortured anyone.
No, I wouldn't maintain that. I'm sure we have...depending, of course, on your definition of torture.

I would put that in the same category as I put his surmise that Israel has committed no war crimes whatsoever in Gaza. It proceeds against the plain evidence: the use of white phosphorus (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0114/p07s01-wome.html), to take one very accessible example.
In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there is a right and wrong side of the issue. I believe Israel is in the right for wanting to repel the over sixty years of continual aggression perpetrated against it by the Arab community.

War is hell and, from time to time, participants use what are charitably called extreme measures to combat their enemies...sometimes out of desperation. Unfortunately, Hamas (and Hezbollah, to the North) have decided to cowardly embed themselves in populated areas, using schools and homes as weapons depots and launch sites, giving Israel a choice between risking high collateral damage or doing nothing while the Palestinians continue their reign of terror against them.

I'm still waiting for an example of where the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Arab organization has investigated and/or punished one of their own for atrocities against an Israeli -- or, hell, one of their own citizens.

It doesn't happen. In fact, they kidnap and torture -- for no apparent gain -- Israeli soldiers and they summarily execute those, in their own ranks, over mere suspicion of collaboration with Israel. And, showing any sympathy with the Israeli position is seen as collaboration.

Winehole23

03-21-2009, 05:15 PM

No, I wouldn't maintain that. I'm sure we have...depending, of course, on your definition of torture.I'll allow the contradiction to stand. Yoni apparently wants to have it both ways.

In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there is a right and wrong side of the issue. I believe Israel is in the right for wanting to repel the over sixty years of continual aggression perpetrated against it by the Arab community.In your view, Israel wears a white hat and all its anti-Arab actions are warrantably defensive. This reading of history is a bit one-sided to say the least.

War is hell and, from time to time, participants use what are charitably called extreme measures to combat their enemies...sometimes out of desperation. Unfortunately, Hamas (and Hezbollah, to the North) have decided to cowardly embed themselves in populated areas, using schools and homes as weapons depots and launch sites, giving Israel a choice between risking high collateral damage or doing nothing while the Palestinians continue their reign of terror against them.Collateral damage is forced by the tactics of Hamas. Sure. What this has to do with soldiers being ordered to shoot down unarmed crones, eludes me.

Oh, and desperation is not a moral waiver.

I'm still waiting for an example of where the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Arab organization has investigated and/or punished one of their own for atrocities against an Israeli -- or, hell, one of their own citizens.Strawman. Who has denied this? Israel, much to its credit, is still a functioning democracy and holds its officers to account.

It doesn't happen. In fact, they kidnap and torture -- for no apparent gain -- Israeli soldiers and they summarily execute those, in their own ranks, over mere suspicion of collaboration with Israel. And, showing any sympathy with the Israeli position is seen as collaboration.But when Shin Bet kidnaps and tortures, that is legitmate law enforcement?

You say there is no apparent gain when Hamas does it, but didn't the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit give Hamas standing to negotiate with Israel? I'd say this counterexample somewhat undermines your theory that moral depravity is at the bottom of everything Hamas does.

Regardless, wearing the white cap of "morality" isn't carte blanche. It comes with strings, and you are correct to point out that a form of such accountability does exist in Israel. That soldiers will reveal illegal orders publicly underscores their moral stature: for some, moral straightness trumps esprit de corps.

sook

03-21-2009, 06:38 PM

Sderot, struck by over 7,500 rockets since 2001 is in Israel proper and has never been in a "disputed" territory -- unless, of course, you take the position of Hamas who says all of Israel is in dispute and that the Jews should be run into the ocean...etc...with which, I gather, Nbadan concurs.

It's curious why the Palestinian death tolls are always so high in relation to the Israeli death tolls and how the percentage of those Palestinian death tolls are so high among women and children. 1,300 Palestinians killed to 13 Israelis killed with 42% of the 1,300 Palestinians being women and children. Their use of force always seems disproportionate and misdirected.

So i guess you steal my candy bar and I'll pull a gun out and you in the head Yonivore?

sook

03-21-2009, 06:42 PM

There is not Palestinian authority. Anyone that believes that only demonstrates there poor grasp on the whole situation.

Yonivore

03-22-2009, 12:29 AM

It's curious why the Palestinian death tolls are always so high in relation to the Israeli death tolls and how the percentage of those Palestinian death tolls are so high among women and children. 1,300 Palestinians killed to 13 Israelis killed with 42% of the 1,300 Palestinians being women and children. Their use of force always seems disproportionate and misdirected.

So i guess you steal my candy bar and I'll pull a gun out and you in the head Yonivore?
Palestinians take their women and children to battle with them, store their weapons in civilian neighborhoods, and fire their rockets from schools and other public institutions.

On the other hand, Israelis spend millions on population protection, don't garrison their troops in neighborhoods and don't launch attacks from their kids' schools. And, I'm betting the Israeli Military doesn't have a take your family to work day. Just saying.

Not curious at all.

Wild Cobra

03-22-2009, 10:44 AM

Why are you associating Hamas with the Palest. so readily? Hamas opens fire on Palestenians openly in public. They get their weapons from Iran leaving the weak palest. government defenseless. Even after all that supporting them doesn't seem to hard a task when Israel kills 1300 people in a three week span.:rolleyes

Some of you people are so staid it is frightening.
What you miss is that what is portrayed in the article as atrocities are alleged. What chances do you think they are true? I would assume they are about as true as the lies the left made about governor Palin. Mostly lies, little fact.

Propaganda and lies.

Who is the source? Where are the names? Even the articles says "ALLEGED!"

Leave it to you anti-semtic libtards to be on the side of Hamas.

Fucking traitorous hearts you libtards have. Assume the worse. Where are the values of our constitution that presumes innocent until proven guilty? Can we have at least some evidence rather than UNNAMED SOURCES?

Oh, Gee!!

03-22-2009, 11:49 AM

stfu WC

I think I've discovered the only suitable response to any WC post. It's succinct and it feels good to post. Everyone should try it.

johnsmith

03-22-2009, 12:07 PM

stfu WC

I think I've discovered the only suitable response to any WC post. It's succinct and it feels good to post. Everyone should try it.

stfu oh gee.

You're right.

Oh, Gee!!

03-22-2009, 12:08 PM

stfu oh gee.

You're right.

it sounds stupid when you do it.

johnsmith

03-22-2009, 12:12 PM

it sounds stupid when you do it.

Quit reading it out loud then.

Purple & Gold

03-22-2009, 01:37 PM

Winehole23

03-22-2009, 05:31 PM

So i guess you steal my candy bar and I'll pull a gun out and you in the head Yonivore?I think I see where you're going, but you might want to rethink one of the terms of the comparison, sook. It was unfortunately chosen. It just isn't accurate.

Winehole23

03-22-2009, 05:35 PM

Intriguingly, sook imagines Yoni in the place of Hamas, and himself as a vengeful Israel.

sook

03-22-2009, 05:52 PM

^ lol

sook

03-22-2009, 05:53 PM

What you miss is that what is portrayed in the article as atrocities are alleged. What chances do you think they are true? I would assume they are about as true as the lies the left made about governor Palin. Mostly lies, little fact.

Propaganda and lies.

Who is the source? Where are the names? Even the articles says "ALLEGED!"

Leave it to you anti-semtic libtards to be on the side of Hamas.

Fucking traitorous hearts you libtards have. Assume the worse. Where are the values of our constitution that presumes innocent until proven guilty? Can we have at least some evidence rather than UNNAMED SOURCES?

Idiots...

What level of facts did I specify?

None!

I said I heard, I never gave verification or source. I didn't remember the complete context. Figured someone had to start the thread.

Sorry for disappointing you, but I have little time these days to research, respond, and fact check.

How many times do I state anything as fact lately? Please guys. Get a grip on reality.

LnGrrrR

03-23-2009, 03:57 PM

Let's not forget all those innocent until proven guilty sufferers in GTMO that WC has cheered on support for.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 06:42 PM

It's curious why the Palestinian death tolls are always so high in relation to the Israeli death tolls and how the percentage of those Palestinian death tolls are so high among women and children. 1,300 Palestinians killed to 13 Israelis killed with 42% of the 1,300 Palestinians being women and children. Their use of force always seems disproportionate and misdirected.

Palestinians take their women and children to battle with them, store their weapons in civilian neighborhoods, and fire their rockets from schools and other public institutions.

On the other hand, Israelis spend millions on population protection, don't garrison their troops in neighborhoods and don't launch attacks from their kids' schools. And, I'm betting the Israeli Military doesn't have a take your family to work day. Just saying.

Not curious at all.
Still curious, sook?

So i guess you steal my candy bar and I'll pull a gun out and you in the head Yonivore?
Equating Israeli lives to candy bars? I think I see why you have such a weak grasp on the conflict.

What, exactly, would you do if you were Israel?

mogrovejo

03-24-2009, 06:53 PM

...in which they confront the criminality of command, and the cruelty of their own conduct. War is hell, right?

Has any such attempt really been made in the thread? The crimes of both sides can be tallied without any reference to respective moral stature.

No, but this news illustrate two things: that wars are fought by men, not angels and that the parts aren't morally equivalent.

They already do some of that, they are a political party in Lebanon after all....

No, that's Hezbollah.

sook

03-24-2009, 07:23 PM

Still curious, sook?

Equating Israeli lives to candy bars? I think I see why you have such a weak grasp on the conflict.

What, exactly, would you do if you were Israel?
You know what is wrong with you idiots? You refuse to use common sense. The whole "Human Shields" take is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever heard. Do you honestly think they would go camp out somewhere where everybody knew their identity? The Israeli Army would bomb the place in a second.

Israeli Lives to Candy Bars? You're right i forgot that 1300 Palesinian lives = 13 Israeli lives. Huge difference because after all, the Palestenian people are dogs. They don't deserve to be loved. They don't deserve to be treated with respect. And they don't deserve to be mourned for when they are dropped like ants. I wouldn't expect a right wing nuthugger to be any more impartial anyways.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 07:34 PM

You know what is wrong with you idiots? You refuse to use common sense. The whole "Human Shields" take is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever heard. Do you honestly think they would go camp out somewhere where everybody knew their identity? The Israeli Army would bomb the place in a second.
I never said they saw them as "Human Shields." It's just the way Hamas and the Palestinians do business. The place little value on the lives of their familes and, so, they delight in creating a moral minefield for everyone else in the world.

Israeli Lives to Candy Bars? You're right i forgot that 1300 Palesinian lives = 13 Israeli lives. Huge difference because after all, the Palestenian people are dogs. They don't deserve to be loved. They don't deserve to be treated with respect. And they don't deserve to be mourned for when they are dropped like ants. I wouldn't expect a right wing nuthugger to be any more impartial anyways.
It seems to me the Palestinians that persist in launching attacks from their populated neighborhoods are the ones that treat Palestinians like dogs. They're the same ones that recruit women, children, and the mentally handicapped to become "martyrs" for Allah.

If you don't want to be treated like a dog, you've got to stop acting like one.

But, seriously, what should Israel do the next time a barrage of rockets fly from Gaza to Sderot?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 07:55 PM

sook

03-24-2009, 08:06 PM

I never said they saw them as "Human Shields." It's just the way Hamas and the Palestinians do business. The place little value on the lives of their familes and, so, they delight in creating a moral minefield for everyone else in the world.

It seems to me the Palestinians that persist in launching attacks from their populated neighborhoods are the ones that treat Palestinians like dogs. They're the same ones that recruit women, children, and the mentally handicapped to become "martyrs" for Allah.

If you don't want to be treated like a dog, you've got to stop acting like one.

But, seriously, what should Israel do the next time a barrage of rockets fly from Gaza to Sderot?

You're absolutely right Yoni. They should be like "Normal" people and accept the status Quo. The fact they live in a tiny shack should be acceptable to them. The fact that they can't own property should too. Did you hear what they did today in Israel? They passed a law saying only Jews could protest. And when Palestenians protested this law on the streets tear gas and force was used against them.

Let me ask you something, do you honestly believe that whatever Israel does is just a response to a toy rocket that that is far from fatal more often than not? They flex their muscles Yoni. That whole Gaza invasion was just that. The longer you choose to stay ignorant the more apparent it is of how depraved you idiots are.

I have a serious question for you, why is it that every right win cum sucker in this country loves Israel more than America? I have been baffled for years.

sook

03-24-2009, 08:13 PM

Here, sook, get anothe education...

On Campus: The Pro-Palestinians' Real Agenda (http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/03/on-campus-the-pro-palestinians-real-agenda.php)

Written by an Israeli Arab (who has visited both American college campuses and with Arabs in the West Bank) who thinks people like you and MannyIsGod are worse than Hamas themselves.

I know, you probably won't read this and you probably didn't read the last lesson I posted -- and it was a nice slide show -- but, hey, I tried.

I never knew it was that hard to go pull up an article. I thought I'd help you as well.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0198/9801088.html

And finally, i think you are oblivious to the fact of how Israel dictates our Foreign Policy on any Mideast affair, so here is a dumbed down version of a wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

Mearsheimer and Walt argue that "No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical".[2] They argue that "in its basic operations, it is no different from interest groups like the Farm Lobby, steel and textile workers, and other ethnic lobbies. What sets the Israel Lobby apart is its extraordinary effectiveness." According to Mearsheimer and Walt, the "loose coalition" that makes up the Lobby has "significant leverage over the Executive branch," as well as the ability to make sure that the "Lobby's perspective on Israel is widely reflected in the mainstream media." They claim that AIPAC in particular has a "stranglehold on the U.S. Congress," due to its "ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it."

Mearsheimer and Walt decry what they call misuse of "the charge of anti-Semitism," and argue that pro-Israel groups place great importance on "controlling debate" in American academia; they maintain, however, that the Lobby has yet to succeed in its "campaign to eliminate criticism of Israel from college campuses" (see Campus Watch and U.S. Congress Bill H.R. 509). The authors conclude by arguing that when the Lobby succeeds in shaping U.S. policy in the Middle East, then "Israel's enemies get weakened or overthrown, Israel gets a free hand with the Palestinians, and the United States does most of the fighting, dying, rebuilding, and paying."[1]

Pull your head out of your ass and stop trying to come off as such an ignorant fool. Btw, what was up with you disappearing for like a couple of months after you got Obama jizz all over you?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 08:21 PM

I never knew it was that hard to go pull up an article. I thought I'd help you as well.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0198/9801088.html

And finally, i think you are oblivious to the fact of how Israel dictates our Foreign Policy on any Mideast affair, so here is a dumbed down version of a wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

Pull your head out of your ass and stop trying to come off as such an ignorant fool. Btw, what was up with you disappearing for like a couple of months after you got Obama jizz all over you?
Oh, you're one of those...

sook

03-24-2009, 08:24 PM

Oh, you're one of those...

An Obama supporter? :lol Fuck Obama. I love america, and i hate tools like you. Why did you leave btw?

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/sheep-stool.jpg

sook

03-24-2009, 08:27 PM

Why do hate America Yoni? Why would you support a state whose leader boasts about

telling us what to do?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 08:36 PM

Why do hate America Yoni? Why would you support a state whose leader boasts about

telling us what to do?
You haven't my question yet. What should Israel do in response to the constant barrage of rockets flying out of Gaza?

sook

03-24-2009, 08:47 PM

You haven't my question yet. What should Israel do in response to the constant barrage of rockets flying out of Gaza?

Is quarantining gaza and killing 1300 people one of them? If you want to take out a specific enemy i advise you not to carpet bomb the place. They knew what they were doing. Why are you evading my questions? Why do you always disappear when you are shown to be the ass you are?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 08:48 PM

Is quarantining gaza and killing 1300 people one of them? If you want to take out a specific enemy i advise you not to carpet bomb the place. They knew what they were doing. Why are you evading my questions? Why do you always disappear when you are shown to be the ass you are?
I'm not evading, I asked my question first.

If you were the Israeli Prime Minister, how do you respond to the rocket attacks?

sook

03-24-2009, 08:51 PM

I'm not evading, I asked my question first.

If you were the Israeli Prime Minister, how do you respond to the rocket attacks?

LIKE I SAID. I would not carpet bomb the place. I would push for Man to Man combat. I would have more casualties but i would be morally satisfied in the fact i didn't go around killing 10 civilians for every one of my targets.

And btw, which Israeli Minister do you speak of? Your hero? This guy?

A beaming Olmert then described telling President Bush “the US cannot possibly vote in favor of this resolution,” and spoke with pride of how embarrassed US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was at having to abstain from voting for a resolution she helped to organize and gather support for.

Why do you hate America Yoni?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 08:59 PM

LIKE I SAID. I would not carpet bomb the place. I would push for Man to Man combat. I would have more casualties but i would be morally satisfied in the fact i didn't go around killing 10 civilians for every one of my targets.
I didn't ask what you wouldn't do and an invasion of Gaza would result in more civilian casualties than have the bombings. The vast majority of civilian casaulties, in Gaza, are due to the targets being embedded in neighborhoods and the apparent "Take your family to work" policy of Hamas and the Palestinians.

sook

03-24-2009, 09:05 PM

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do and an invasion of Gaza would result in more civilian casualties than have the bombings. The vast majority of civilian casaulties, in Gaza, are due to the targets being embedded in neighborhoods and the apparent "Take your family to work" policy of Hamas and the Palestinians.

Typical. Knitpick what you choose to answer, I'll post it again for you my

remedial friend.

Is this the Prime Minister you support?

A beaming Olmert then described telling President Bush “the US cannot possibly vote in favor of this resolution,” and spoke with pride of how embarrassed US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was at having to abstain from voting for a resolution she helped to organize and gather support for.

What kind of paradoxical statement is loving America and supporting a

pompous fool such as Olmert and his actions in Gaza?

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 09:14 PM

Typical. Knitpick what you choose to answer, I'll post it again for you my

remedial friend.

Is this the Prime Minister you support?

What kind of paradoxical statement is loving America and supporting a

pompous fool such as Olmert and his actions in Gaza?
I'm not an Israeli citizen...I don't support their Prime Minister. I don't know that much about him.

You're just trying to change the subject.

So, if an Israeli invasion would cost as many civilians lives but, in your estimation, at least cost the Israelis some lives, that'd be okay?

sook

03-24-2009, 09:25 PM

I'm not an Israeli citizen...I don't support their Prime Minister. I don't know that much about him.

You're just trying to change the subject.

So, if an Israeli invasion would cost as many civilians lives but, in your estimation, at least cost the Israelis some lives, that'd be okay?

Could you phrase your argument any poorer? I am going to make a feeble attempt in interpreting what you just stated.

A) You're saying that an Israeli invasion would cost as many civilian lives? I am seriously beginning to question your intelligence, do you think it is harder to see an enemy face to face or behind the reigns of an F-16 fighter jet? Do you think more civilians would be killed by constant bombing or ground combat?

B) If you are referring to the Israeli soldiers as the civilians, they are not. They are soldiers.

C) Of course you fuck face. More Israeli soldiers would die but that is the cost of protecting the innocent. Last i checked did we just nuke over half of Iraq? Why do we have troops there?

Spare me with such rudimentary notions and go do some research you fuck.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 09:35 PM

Could you phrase your argument any poorer? I am going to make a feeble attempt in interpreting what you just stated.

A) You're saying that an Israeli invasion would cost as many civilian lives? I am seriously beginning to question your intelligence, do you think it is harder to see an enemy face to face or behind the reigns of an F-16 fighter jet? Do you think more civilians would be killed by constant bombing or ground combat?
Ground combat in Gaza would result in many more than the 1,300 civilians lives you've talked about. (42% of which are women and children -- according to you).

B) If you are referring to the Israeli soldiers as the civilians, they are not. They are soldiers.
They're Israeli lives. Why squander them just so you'll believe there's some moral equivalence?

C) Of course you fuck face. More Israeli soldiers would die but that is the cost of protecting the innocent. Last i checked did we just nuke over half of Iraq? Why do we have troops there?
I contend it wouldn't protect the innocent. Hamas and the Palestinians have shown no indication they would change their tactics if there were an invasion.

Spare me with such rudimentary notions and go do some research you fuck.
So, why are the Palestinians attacking Israel?

sook

03-24-2009, 10:14 PM

Ground combat in Gaza would result in many more than the 1,300 civilians lives you've talked about. (42% of which are women and children -- according to you).
You may have surpassed the few i know in making idiotic assumptions. Again, if you truly believe Carpet Bombing results in less civilians killed you are reinforcing the fact you are an idiot.

They're Israeli lives. Why squander them just so you'll believe there's some moral equivalence?
You could say the same about anybody, even a criminal. Sorry doesn't work.

I contend it wouldn't protect the innocent. Hamas and the Palestinians have shown no indication they would change their tactics if there were an invasion.
Yea and how are the Palestinians the antagonizers when you have one side suffocating Gaza and coincidentally stopping Media from entering, yup they have nothing dirty to hide.

So, why are the Palestinians attacking Israel?
Why are Israelis attacking Palestinians?

http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg

Please Yoni, stop the self ownage.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 10:22 PM

You may have surpassed the few i know in making idiotic assumptions. Again, if you truly believe Carpet Bombing results in less civilians killed you are reinforcing the fact you are an idiot.
You obviously have no concept of what is carpet bombing.

You could say the same about anybody, even a criminal. Sorry doesn't work.
You're the one asking Israel to put their soldiers in an untenable situation just so you'll feel better about it.

Yea and how are the Palestinians the antagonizers when you have one side suffocating Gaza and coincidentally stopping Media from entering, yup they have nothing dirty to hide.
Hamas has violated every cease fire that has ever been reached. And, as soon as Israel relaxes checkpoints and free passage, another Palestinian blows up in a market or on a bus.

Why are Israelis attacking Palestinians?
To eliminate the threat posed by those rocket launchers.

http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg

Please Yoni, stop the self ownage.

http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/palhumanshields.jpg
Maybe that poor child was at this family gathering.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 10:27 PM

http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/terrorcivilians6.jpg
Original AP Caption: "A masked Hamas militant sets up a makeshift mortar launcher against Israeli forces, unseen, as Palestinian youths try to cover him from the sight of the forces during an incursion in a Gaza city's neighborhood, Wednesday Feb. 11, 2004. Israeli troops moved into a neighborhood at the eastern edge of Gaza City early Wednesday, killing atleast 14 Palestinians and wounding at least 27 others in exchanges of fire, residents said, sparking the bloodiest fighting in Gaza in four months. (AP Photo/Adel Hana)"

Is it any fucking wonder 14 Palestinians were killed and another 27 wounded?

Is that any way to engage in combat?

By the way, this occurred during an Israeli incursion which you seem to favor over bombing. This is how the Hamas and their Palestinian cohorts fight hand-to-hand.

TDMVPDPOY

03-24-2009, 11:27 PM

the question you gotto ask yourself when they use civilians as human shields, why are they dumbshits still standing around waitin for this clown to fire a rocket when they should be dispersing to safer grounds due to the probability of a counter attack?

if they israelis and palestinians wanna settle the score, remove all weaponary and lets fight it oldschool....fist and stones

sook

03-24-2009, 11:36 PM

You obviously have no concept of what is carpet bombing.

You're the one asking Israel to put their soldiers in an untenable situation just so you'll feel better about it.

Hamas has violated every cease fire that has ever been reached. And, as soon as Israel relaxes checkpoints and free passage, another Palestinian blows up in a market or on a bus.

To eliminate the threat posed by those rocket launchers.

http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/palhumanshields.jpg
Maybe that poor child was at this family gathering.

Just when i thought you couldn't get any lower you conter a dead child's pic with a pic like that. Keep it comin buddy its working for you, you're only exposing yourself.

Yonivore

03-24-2009, 11:40 PM

Just when i thought you couldn't get any lower you conter a dead child's pic with a pic like that. Keep it comin buddy its working for you, you're only exposing yourself.
What? It is entirely possible the dead child was the victim of what was depicted in the two pictures I posted.

What the hell are those children doing? Why do Palestinian mothers and fathers allow their children to run around a battlefield? Is it any surprise some are killed and injured?

InK

03-25-2009, 11:02 AM

Yoni, advocating the morality of a surge where the ratio of deaths is 200-1, is simply advocating a slaughter. You can do it, you just can't do it well. Anyone who thinks that Gaza is anything but a concentration camp with benefits is a tool, it's as simple as that.

Yonivore

03-25-2009, 05:45 PM

LnGrrrR

03-26-2009, 07:16 AM

Look, Palestine has a bunch of terrorists, and Israel takes out lots of civilians getting to those terrorists.

Sounds familiar eh?

Neither side is blameless.

LnGrrrR

03-26-2009, 07:18 AM

Wild Cobra

03-26-2009, 12:18 PM

http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg

Nice photo. The guy holding the child looks firmiliar. I don't remember the site, but pictures were shown from several news sources together. The same man carrying children away, firing weapons, etc.

If this is the same man. it's a staged photo!

Pure propaganda reasons.

Now I'm not going to say children don't get killed as collateral damage, but wouldn't we consider that Child Abuse, to let them play in such an environment?

Would you let your children go out with gang members to watch a drive by shooting?

Get real you liberals.

LnGrrrR

03-26-2009, 12:57 PM

Nice photo. The guy holding the child looks firmiliar. I don't remember the site, but pictures were shown from several news sources together. The same man carrying children away, firing weapons, etc.

If this is the same man. it's a staged photo!

Pure propaganda reasons.

Now I'm not going to say children don't get killed as collateral damage, but wouldn't we consider that Child Abuse, to let them play in such an environment?

Would you let your children go out with gang members to watch a drive by shooting?

Get real you liberals.

Wtf are you smoking?

"That environment"? The whole point is that civilians aren't safe. There's no designated 'war zone'. Would you blame the parents of a victim of a drive-by shooting? Sheesh.

If you think it's the same guy, then put up evidence to prove it. Don't just say, "I think" and then expect us to assume it as fact.

InK

03-26-2009, 02:11 PM

Now I'm not going to say children don't get killed as collateral damage, but wouldn't we consider that Child Abuse, to let them play in such an environment?

What would we consider killing children then? Acceptable colletaral damage? A reach out to kids program? One's side is subjected to the laws of war, the other to the laws of peace? Collateral damage on one side and child abuse on another?

You have the audacity to compare the crime of murdering children with the "crime" of not keeping them indoors (not that would guaranty their safety, it would apperently just put your mind at ease if they would die under a pile of rubble- no bad photos, no need for intellectual gymnastics). It's perverted to accuse the parents of killed children for not isolating them in non-existant bomb resistant bunkers, how can you be so blind?

Yonivore

03-26-2009, 03:58 PM

Look, Palestine has a bunch of terrorists, and Israel takes out lots of civilians getting to those terrorists.

Sounds familiar eh?

Neither side is blameless.
What could Israel do that would eliminate the terrorists without running the risk of civilian casualties?

Yonivore

03-26-2009, 04:01 PM

Honestly, the best chance of stopping a war between the two would be to make sure that Palestine had an army as effective as Israel. The last few wars have usually happened because one side has a great advantage. Modern warfare is too effective now to go to war with someone who has the same goodies you do. :)
In the case of Islamic extremists, they have no qualms about picking a fight with someone who vastly outguns them. And you want to level that playing field?

Why does the world expect Israel and the United States to put down their Tomahawks for Kalishnikovs simply because the enemy that is trying to kill them doesn't have any better?

War isn't a game. The terrorists should quit picking fights if they can't stand what's going to come flying back at them.

LnGrrrR

03-26-2009, 04:21 PM

What could Israel do that would eliminate the terrorists without running the risk of civilian casualties?

I didn't say that they would be able to eliminate the risk of civilian casualties.

They would have to wage full-fledged war, and occupy Palestine, in order to try and eliminate civilian casualties. I do think that their response is over the top, and from the sources I've read, it doesn't seem that they're very discriminating in their return fire. Also, the ratio of Israel to Palestine deaths is something pretty low, like 1 to 20 IIRC.

Like I said, there's really no one that's "blameless". I think it's just important to point out that it's not necessarily Israel vs Palestine, but Israeli soldiers vs Palestinian terrorists. It's a necessary distinction in my eyes.

LnGrrrR

03-26-2009, 04:24 PM

In the case of Islamic extremists, they have no qualms about picking a fight with someone who vastly outguns them. And you want to level that playing field?

Why does the world expect Israel and the United States to put down their Tomahawks for Kalishnikovs simply because the enemy that is trying to kill them doesn't have any better?

War isn't a game. The terrorists should quit picking fights if they can't stand what's going to come flying back at them.

You're missing my point. I'm just saying that most countries are leery of fighting those who are equally armed. I'm not actually suggesting Israel use that tactic!

Palestinian terrorists are using those techniques because they're asymmetric. They can not 'win' a war. The only way to 'win' is to get a draw. And because they can fade into civilian population, it's very tough to attack them without accidentally taking out civilians, which upsets the civilian population and leads others to terrorism.

Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers try to fight back, destroying resistance where they can find it, ensuring that the terrorists never will be able to fight a war symmetrically.

The only real way to fight terrorism is the way we're doing it in Iraq. By providing security and convincing people that your side is better than the terrorists' side.