How Good Is The Spurs Bench?

[timvp]

picnroll made a great point in a thread that I think needs to be looked at a little closer.


Problem is Spurs have a weak bench. Beno has regressed. Brown offensively is one dimensional except the occassion when he hits the long ball. And Barry is a bust. He was supposed to be the guy that could throw up 15 - 20 point games fairly regularly. Be clutch in tight games at pivotal points. Nobody other than starters, namely Duncan, Manu and Parker can be counted on except for the once in a blue moon to throw up 20 points or be clutch.

How weak is the Spurs bench? I agree with picnroll. The Spurs team has a pretty weak bench, especially compared to teams of the past. Devin Brown is the team's highest bench scorer and he's played horrible for the better part of the last two months. The only way the bench turns it around is if Barry or Brown start playing well and Nazr becomes a force.

I researched to see how this season's bench compares to past years. I took the top three bench scorers from each season to determine the strength of the bench. Surprisingly, it seems that having a good bench is overrated. In fact, if you take out the two years that Duncan was injured in the playoffs (1998 and 2000), the teams with the two worst benches won the championship.

1998
Vinny Del Negro -- 9.5
Chuck Person -- 6.7
Monty Williams -- 6.3
Total -- 22.5

1999
Jaren Jackson -- 6.4
Malik Rose -- 6.0
Antonio Daniels -- 4.7
Total -- 17.1

2000
Terry Porter -- 9.4
Malik Rose -- 6.7
Jaren Jackson -- 6.3
Total -- 22.4

2001
Antonio Daniels -- 9.4
Sean Elliott -- 7.9
Malik Rose -- 7.7
Total -- 25.0

2002
Malik Rose -- 9.4
Antonio Daniels -- 9.2
Charles Smith -- 7.4
Total -- 26.0

2003
Malik Rose -- 10.4
Manu Ginobili -- 7.6
Steve Smith -- 6.8
Total -- 24.8

2004
Manu Ginobili -- 12.8
Malik Rose -- 7.9
Robert Horry -- 4.8
Total -- 25.5

2005
Devin Brown -- 6.8
Brent Barry -- 6.6
Beno Udrih -- 5.4
Total -- 18.8


So the questions are:

How good is the bench? Is it good enough? Does it matter?

[Frenchise player]

What explains that we have a weak bench is that we start with our 5 best player.
Seattle has a better bench because they start Jerome James instead of Fortson and Ridnour over Daniels. I could tell the same thing about the Bulls not starting with Gordon.
If we started with Barry, I am sure everyone will consider Spurs bench the best in the league and Manu as the best 6 man, but will we be playing better?

[Mr. Body]

The bench was a big strength earlier in the year and contributed to blow-outs. Now they're just fizzling.

[E20]

Play more Udrih!

[Kori Ellis]

Early in the season, the execution was awesome by the bench. Devin, Brent and Beno were incredible on the floor together. Their minutes have decreased as a unit, but it's a chicken and the egg thing. Have the minutes/productivity of the bench decreased because the Spurs aren't blowing teams out and the starters need to stay on the floor longer? Or are the Spurs not blowing out teams and the starters staying on the floor longer because the bench isn't being productive when they are in?

[Brodels]

I think it's a legit question.

The bench probably isn't as strong at this very moment as it has been in the past, but it's not too late. There is a lot of veteran talent there and some quality young guys, but they just haven't put it all together yet.

Look at the talent: Beno is one of the better rookies in the league, Barry in theory has the ability to be one of the best bench players in the league, Horry is still savvy even if he isn't the same as he used to be, Mohammed is a potential starter on this team, and Brown and Massenburg contribute.

The bench has certainly underperformed, but it isn't too late for them to put it all together. I will be disappointed if the bench plays in the playoffs like it is right now, but a rebirth is possible even if it isn't likely.

I have some faith in Beno and Horry and Nazr. If Barry can get comfortable in the offense and the big men can contribute every night, things will be fine. Those are a lot of 'ifs' though...

It's arguable that the bench will be forced to play an even bigger role than usual this season. We know that Rasho can be ineffective, Manu can require extended periods of rest, and Parker can sometimes struggle in the playoffs. There won't be a Ginobili on the bench in the playoffs.

The bench absolutely must perform well for the team to win in the playoffs. So far, they've been quite average.

[ChumpDumper]

Does it matter?In the playoffs?

Hell yes.

[timvp]

In the playoffs?

Hell yes.

That's my first reaction, but look at the 1999 team. What bench player produced in the playoffs other than Jaren Jackson (even though he still shot < 40% for the playoffs)? Malik Rose had some good minutes but other than him, nobody else on the bench did anything of note.

[ChumpDumper]

Fantasy stat argument. I can't agree that the bench could've been replaced by any old players.

I will grant you that the bench was probably less important that year, but you have to consider the consistency of the starters and the resulting rotation. Health wasn't an issue that year either. We had neither of those last year and probably less of both this season.

[Brodels]

That's my first reaction, but look at the 1999 team. What bench player produced in the playoffs other than Jaren Jackson (even though he still shot < 40% for the playoffs)? Malik Rose had some good minutes but other than him, nobody else on the bench did anything of note.

But again, this team is different. Each and every one of the starters then could play big minutes. They were mentally tough veterans capable of contributing for entire games.

The starting lineup this time around is possibly just as talented, but there are still question marks that the first championship team didn't have to think about.

Rasho is a question mark. He may or may not be effective on any given night. Manu isn't going to be playing 42 minutes. He just isn't going to able to do it. Parker, for various reasons that may or may not be his fault, has disappeared in the playoffs at some point in each of the past two years. And as good as Bowen can defend and shoot the three, Pop may be forced to turn to the bench for more offense when things slow down and scoring becomes more difficult in the playoffs.

This starting five needs the help more than some other starting fives have in the past. Fatigue and inconsistency are major concerns.

The Spurs are probably the favorite and they deserve to be. But unless the starters can play big minutes at a high level (and there is little evidence to show that they will be able to), the Spurs will absolutely need a strong showing from their bench in the playoffs.

[picnroll]

Spurs have two starters that are basically non scorers. If you have two of TD, Manu or Parker off the floor Spurs have to get contributions from the bench or fight an extremely difficult uphill battle agaisnt good teams with stronger benches that can continually keep scorers on the floor. And if anyone of TD, Manu or TP are having a bad game the system is extremely stressed.

[Dario]

Pop experimenting way to much is the main cause imo. If it was 1 or 2 guys its understandable, whole bench playing worse has got to be something with the system. Malik in doghouse for way to much time, horry playing 1 game and sit out 2 others, beno playing 5 mins or sometimes nothing and brent (who should have opurtunity to be in game for some late 1/4 action to warm up and he would play a lot better down the stretch) and finally devin, who teamed up awsome with beno, but pop made sure that doesn't happen much lately. I don't know what statement he wants to show to players, but it ain't good for the team. Spurs were dominant because of the bench, you take that away its just 3 stars playing and that isn't enough by far to win the championship...

[Kori Ellis]

In the beginning of the season, I saw some of the most beautiful basketball with Devin, Barry, and Beno on the floor together. I don't see why we can't get back to that. Especially now that they have added Nazr in the mix.

I haven't given up hope on this bench.

[Brodels]

Pop experimenting way to much is the main cause imo. If it was 1 or 2 guys its understandable, whole bench playing worse has got to be something with the system. Malik in doghouse for way to much time, horry playing 1 game and sit out 2 others, beno playing 5 mins or sometimes nothing and brent (who should have opurtunity to be in game for some late 1/4 action to warm up and he would play a lot better down the stretch) and finally devin, who teamed up awsome with beno, but pop made sure that doesn't happen much lately. I don't know what statement he wants to show to players, but it ain't good for the team. Spurs were dominant because of the bench, you take that away its just 3 stars playing and that isn't enough by far to win the championship...

While I agree with you to some extent, it seems to me that Pop has been experimenting so much simply because nobody has seized the opportunity to solidify their spot in the rotation. I'm sure that Pop would prefer to play Nazr, Horry, Barry, and Beno almost exclusively off of the bench, but it hasn't worked out. Horry has been pretty inconsistent. Beno has been up and down some. Nazr has been hurt. And Barry simply hasn't done what he needs to do. Brown only gets significant minutes because Barry hasn't gotten it done. Massenburg only plays because Nazr has been hurt.

It comes back to that chicken and egg thing. Pop deserves some of the blame, but the players deserve some, too. If you're given 20 minutes one night and 10 minutes the next night, you've got to make sure that you do something to set yourself apart when you're on the floor. The effects of Pop playing guys inconsistently is overrated in my opinion. When you're put in the game, you've got to make some sort of a difference and make your mark in the minutes that you're given. I would love to see a more consistent rotation from Pop, but it's not all on him.

[picnroll]

A lot of Beno, Barry and Brown's success was in the transition game. Good teams won't allow that in the playoffs. Beno isn't driving now like he did earlier. I think teams either know his game now or he's lost aggressiveness/confidence or both.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I think the reason our bench has suffered, particularly on offense, is a product of Pop's emphasis on defense since the All-Star break, and in part with that getting away from the transition game to focus more on the half court offense in preparation for the playoffs.

It's unfortunate. But Pop's got his security blanket, and there's not much any of us can do about it.

[timvp]

AHF finds a way to blame everything on Pop.

Amazing.

[ChumpDumper]

Ever know what a post was going to say before you clicked it?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Okay, fine, it's not Pop's fault.

Do you think we're playing as much transition ball now as we were earlier in the season?

Our second unit is built to run, take that away and they look like the crap that they have been for about the past month.

Another question:

Do you guys deny he has been tinkering with things over the last several weeks, particularly rotations and PT?

Think how Beno feels. Just cruising along most of the year, then all of a sudden he gets to sit on the damn pine so Barry and Devin can find their groove?

[Kori Ellis]

I don't agree that Pop's emphasis on defense has caused problems for the bench, because the same emphasis on d has been there since day one.


Think how Beno feels. Just cruising along most of the year, then all of a sudden he gets to sit on the damn pine so Barry and Devin can find their groove?

^^That is something that I didn't understand Pop doing at all. Brent and Devin should have been able to "find their groove" not at Beno's expense. As it stands now, they still haven't found their groove and Beno has gotten off track.

[timvp]

I think that Beno is secretly pretty banged up. He's probably in the same boat as Manu in that he just plain needs rest.

After the All-Star break, Dick Stockton had a comment that he talked to Beno and Beno told him that he was dead tired.

Pop is in CIA Mode right now trying to get his players rest because he probably fears that at this rate, they'll have peaked too soon and will have an empty gas tank come May.

[ChumpDumper]

The Spurs still try to run whenever they get a defensive board or steal. That hasn't changed at all. I think the league has actually scouted the team pretty effectively and learned how to cut down on the easy buckets compared to November.
Do you guys deny he has been tinkering with things over the last several weeks, particularly rotations and PT?Why deny what's true? Nor will I deny that the original rotation wasn't so consistent as to be above tinkering.
Think how Beno feels. Just cruising along most of the year, then all of a sudden he gets to sit on the damn pine so Barry and Devin can find their groove?Like he's above reproach. Case in point, Saturday: Beno gets punked and loses the ball three times to Boykins. Pop pulls him and according to all the conspiracy theorists shouldn't play at all the rest of the game because Pop is such a meanie. But soft! Beno comes back in not a minute later -- Pop turns him into a shooting guard and leaves the handling to Barry and Devin. Beno gets a shot or two without harassment, and the haters don't notice a thing.

That is the tinkering Pop is doing. He desperately wants to set a rotation, but if you say anyone outside of Tim, Manu, Parker and Bowen have earned his spot in it with this play throughout the season, you are the one in denial.

[1Parker1]

I'm a little suprised Parker isn't a little worn out/tired. It seems he's been playing a lot more minutes since the all star break and that Beno relieves him for maybe 6 inutes a game or something. Plus, he has played every single game thus far, and with his fast paced style, I hope he doesn't run out of gas too.

Then again, he's 22 making millions...he should just deal with it :)

[T Park]

AHF finds a way to blame everything on Pop

Your just now seeing this?

[ShoogarBear]

AHF finds a way to blame everything on Pop.

Well, Malik's gone.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So what is it then?

Or do y'all think it's great that he's fucking with Beno's minutes after the kid had a great first half to his season, all in the name of getting Devin and Barry in a groove?

[T Park]

maybe hes lowered Beno's minutes to give him some rest???

nah.

[ChumpDumper]

Devin and Barry sucked.

Marshall wasn't available.

Had to do something.

[Kori Ellis]

Well Pop has said a couple times that he scaled back Beno's minutes to try to get Barry and Devin into a rhythm.

I'm sure it was that, plus other reasons (i.e. Beno getting rested up, etc.)

[Uncle Donnie]

Didn't SolidD already show that Brown and Barry's minutes did not increase as a result of scaling back Beno's?

[Kori Ellis]

Devin's minutes went up 5 mpg from January to February, while Beno's went down by over 3 mpg. But the month that Beno's percentages went way down was in January -- and he was getting the same minutes as he did in December.

[Rick Von Braun]

In the beginning of the season, I saw some of the most beautiful basketball with Devin, Barry, and Beno on the floor together. I don't see why we can't get back to that. Especially now that they have added Nazr in the mix.

I haven't given up hope on this bench.I miss the ball movement as well. I think that despite the changes in the rotations, or the good scouting by other teams, or the lack of transition baskets --all valid arguments to a certain extent--, the Spurs have gone away from a particular style of offense, and this is by design Pop's decision.

Case to the point, back in November/December, even in the half-court game, the Spurs were moving without the ball beatifully. A classic play would be either a PG or SG holding to the ball on one side of the key, a big coming out of the paint to set up a pick, and two cutters -- either PG /SG and SF-- cutting in opposite diagonals with the other big setting screens for the cutters. That simple play had so many options... the ball handler could hit any of the cutters directly, or run a pick and roll with the big, or penetrate and dish to the cutters (which took perimetral positions after cutting) or pass to the stationary big after penetration, or finish strong to the rack, or... you get the point.

The Spurs had like 3 or 4 plays like that and they were running them increadibly well. The killer for other teams was the mix offense... the Spurs could run a mix of movement, 4-down, and 2-man game, and never settle for any particular offensive style. Other teams looked lost because the Spurs were very unpredictable in their (half-court) offense.

The bench in particular was clicking in all cylinders when running the motion offense. Back cuts, screens, moving without the ball, was the bread & butter of lineups with Beno, Brent, Devin, and Horry. At some point in January the Spurs started going away from that offense, and never used it again. At the same time, the efficiency of our bench started decreasing dramatically. We started using Devin and Brent as spot up shooters almost exclusively, we stop running as much, etc.

I don't know why the Spurs stop doing what was very good for them at the beginning of the season. The only couple of reasons I could think of are:

CIA Pop has stopped doing this on purpose to use it in the playoffs as a secret weapon. I don't think so, but you never know with Pop.
The Spurs are too tired to run much, and the motion offense was scratched from the playbook to minimize movement and save energy.
A combination of the above.
I don't buy any of them, in particular because the bench doesn't play that many minutes and should be rested, and the Spurs will be rusty if they don't use an offense for so long.

In any case, I just wish the Spurs could use some more motion, in particular when playing with Beno and Barry --both players excelled in that offense--. I surely miss that style, and it would give the Spurs that unpredictable touch back again. The current Spurs roster has too much talent to settle for only semi-static offenses.

[Uncle Donnie]

Devin's minutes went up 5 mpg from January to February, while Beno's went down by over 3 mpg. But the month that Beno's percentages went way down was in January -- and he was getting the same minutes as he did in December.

OK, but that doesn't show that Pop was scaling back Beno's minutes to help Brown and Barry. BTW, I found SolidD's analysis (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=180341#post180341)

[wildbill2u]

In the beginning of the season, I saw some of the most beautiful basketball with Devin, Barry, and Beno on the floor together. I don't see why we can't get back to that. Especially now that they have added Nazr in the mix.

I haven't given up hope on this bench.

Why doesnt someone ask POP? Of course, he won't tell the secrets of his rotation that seems to be a mystery to all of us.

[MannyIsGod]

The simple loss of consitency shooting wise by the second unit has been it's downfall. Earlier, when Beno was one of the top 3 point shooters in the leauge, he could drive at will. The same thing when Devin was hitting his outside jumpers with a consistency. The games in which Barry has done so, same thing.

It opens up the rest of the floor for the motion offense.

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but when Malik was playing earlier in the year as part of this rotation, there was an inside scoring threat. Malik could put up points from the post position better than any other backup big we had (or have. I like what I've seen from Nazr so far, but he's not going to give you points with his back to the basket.)

Beno has started to hit jumpers on a pretty consistent basis over the past couple of weeks, and Devin has also shown signs. If this continues, I expect good things to come out of it. And if Barry can ever find his stroke, it will also open things up.

But those of you who want to blame it on Pop should know that regardless of what kind of offense he employes, unless those guys hit a few jumpers, it's going to be useless.

[Mark in Austin]

I miss the ball movement as well. I think that despite the changes in the rotations, or the good scouting by other teams, or the lack of transition baskets --all valid arguments to a certain extent--, the Spurs have gone away from a particular style of offense, and this is by design Pop's decision.

Case to the point, back in November/December, even in the half-court game, the Spurs were moving without the ball beatifully. A classic play would be either a PG or SG holding to the ball on one side of the key, a big coming out of the paint to set up a pick, and two cutters -- either PG /SG and SF-- cutting in opposite diagonals with the other big setting screens for the cutters. That simple play had so many options... the ball handler could hit any of the cutters directly, or run a pick and roll with the big, or penetrate and dish to the cutters (which took perimetral positions after cutting) or pass to the stationary big after penetration, or finish strong to the rack, or... you get the point.

The Spurs had like 3 or 4 plays like that and they were running them increadibly well. The killer for other teams was the mix offense... the Spurs could run a mix of movement, 4-down, and 2-man game, and never settle for any particular offensive style. Other teams looked lost because the Spurs were very unpredictable in their (half-court) offense.

The bench in particular was clicking in all cylinders when running the motion offense. Back cuts, screens, moving without the ball, was the bread & butter of lineups with Beno, Brent, Devin, and Horry. At some point in January the Spurs started going away from that offense, and never used it again. At the same time, the efficiency of our bench started decreasing dramatically. We started using Devin and Brent as spot up shooters almost exclusively, we stop running as much, etc.

I don't know why the Spurs stop doing what was very good for them at the beginning of the season. The only couple of reasons I could think of are:

CIA Pop has stopped doing this on purpose to use it in the playoffs as a secret weapon. I don't think so, but you never know with Pop.
The Spurs are too tired to run much, and the motion offense was scratched from the playbook to minimize movement and save energy.
A combination of the above.
I don't buy any of them, in particular because the bench doesn't play that many minutes and should be rested, and the Spurs will be rusty if they don't use an offense for so long.

In any case, I just wish the Spurs could use some more motion, in particular when playing with Beno and Barry --both players excelled in that offense--. I surely miss that style, and it would give the Spurs that unpredictable touch back again. The current Spurs roster has too much talent to settle for only semi-static offenses.


If the folks at WOAI are reading this, this post would be a great topic for discussion on a segment for the Pop show.

Kudos, RVB.

[SlovenianGuy]

As an alternative, I have done similar research as timvp. I took the team average and then deducted scoring (PPG) of five players with most starts.

For example:
team average 96.7 - Tim 21.2 - Tony 16.7 - Manu 16.2 - Bruce 8.3 - Rasho 5.6 = 28.7

97-98: 21.3
98-99: 24.7
99-00: 30.5
00-01: 29.0
01-02: 31.2
02-03: 29.6
04-05: 28.7

My results show the production of the whole bench and not just the three best bench players. This year's bench is more balanced and so the fourth, fifth, sixth and sometimes even seventh player from the bench are also good contributors.

Bench is almost at the same level as it had been it the last few years.

[jcrod]

I think the bench is solid. I mean they almost won against the second best team in the league and the hottest team, without two of their three best players.

Barry, Brown and Nazr could start for other teams.

I just think Pop needs to be more consistent with his rotation and subsitution timing. That has always irritated me about Pop. I know he's trying to find the right combination, but he does it more than he should and at the wrong times.