Sigh. I'm pro Death Penalty again.

[NeoConIV]

Link (http://cnn.law.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Three+murder+warrants+filed+against+Nichols+-+Mar+14%2C+2005&expire=-1&urlID=13541735&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2005%2FLAW%2F03%2F1 4%2Fatlanta.shooting%2Findex.html&partnerID=2013)


ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Three murder warrants were filed against alleged Atlanta, Georgia, courthouse killer Brian Nichols, Atlanta police chief Richard Pennington said Monday.

"The district attorney and the U.S. attorney are meeting and working out the details and arrangements in terms of how he's going to be processed," Pennington said.

Nichols, 33, is being held at the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary three days after police said he shot and killed a judge, a deputy sheriff, a court reporter and later a federal agent.

Saturday morning, Nichols surrendered to police at the suburban apartment of Ashley Smith. (Full story)

Paul Howard, district attorney for Fulton County -- where the shootings occurred -- said "according to the officers that I talked to, he seemed to be rather defiant -- almost kind of proud of his activities."

It's unknown whether Nichols will face federal charges in the killing of Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent David Wilhelm.

Pennington said the details haven't been finalized, but added that he's "sure that he's going to be arraigned in our state court."

Nichols escaped from custody during his retrial on charges of rape and false imprisonment. On Monday, a Fulton County Superior Court judge declared a mistrial in the case, a spokesman for the district attorney's office said.

Another judge was named Monday to take on duties for Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland W. Barnes, one of the four people Nichols is accused of killing.

Charges related to Nichols' escape will result "in a very large indictment," Howard said.

"We plan to charge him with the murders of the four Fulton County residents," Howard said. "We plan to charge him with a number of aggravated assaults, carjackings."

Howard would not say whether prosecutors would seek the death penalty for Nichols.

His answer to that question was, "My gut tells me that this is one of the most gut-wrenching crimes that has ever taken place in our country, and so maybe one can interpret from that."





Also, looking for guidance on this touchy subject, I was surprised and maybe a little comforted with what I found from the Catholic Catechism:


2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#III


This to me is a cut and dry death penalty case. The catechism doesn't say Kill em all...but extreme cases.

[bigzak25]

strap him up, find a vein.

[attyjackiechiles]

Need I remind you all that he has not been found guilty!
Your eagerness to condemn him to death without due course is dangerous, scandalous.....outrageous!!

[MannyIsGod]

Actually, while silently contemplating this case, I thought to myself how hard it is to fight against the death penalty when people commit acts like this.

None the less, I still maintain it is a bad idea especially with a fallible system.

I will say this, if this man is found guilty and put to death, I won't shed a single tear for him.

[Spurminator]

I hate to sound cold, but I've been wondering about this. Is it really worse for someone to kill in order to avoid imprisonment than to kill for sick pleasure? Not to diminish these horrible tragedies... I just don't see how it's any worse than any other multiple homicide, and thus grounds for an exception to one's opinion on the death penalty.


I will say this, if this man is found guilty and put to death, I won't shed a single tear for him.

I certainly agree with that.

[NeoConIV]

Another question is this. Are we endangering other people's lives, those that will have to tend to this cold blooded killer in jail? Hell, he was already in custody when he went on this rampage! Who's to say that he won't take more lives in prison?

This is the condition where I think the Church is right in saying, ok we have 'identity and responsibility' COMPLETELY nailed down. For his punishment and for the protection of others, he needs to meet his maker sooner than later.

[ididnotnothat]

Who are we to judge? Shouldn't we let "the maker" make that decision?

[NeoConIV]

What's the Catholic Catechism? Chopped Liver? :lol

[JoeChalupa]

I'm down with the Pope.

[Spurminator]

Even assuming the Catechism was handed down by God Himself, it's not grounds for Law.

[JoeChalupa]

God is THE law.

[Spurminator]

God has determined that we will live under secular law.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, I find the Catecism irrelevent to the legal grounds for the death penalty but I can see where it would lead to one's personal beliefs about the act.

[Spurminator]

No doubt.

[Guru of Nothing]

God is THE law.

Your God, or mine?

[MannyIsGod]

I retract my statement about not shedding a tear. I've reconsidered my stance, and I think my previous one was incorrect.

[Useruser666]

I retract my statement about not shedding a tear. I've reconsidered my stance, and I think my previous one was incorrect.

Which stance?


I think this guy pretty much fits the mold for a candidate for the death penalty.
It's a pretty open and shut case on atleast three of the murders. I don't know if they will use an insanity or other impairment defense though.

[Clandestino]

i don't think any defense should matter. regardless, he is a murderer. he killed a deputy with his bare hands... too bad he didn't put up a fight when the cops came to get him from that apartment.. then, they could've just killed him in a gunfight...no trial needed...

[Useruser666]

I retract my statement about not shedding a tear. I've reconsidered my stance, and I think my previous one was incorrect.

Which stance?


I think this guy pretty much fits the mold for a candidate for the death penalty.
It's a pretty open and shut case on atleast three of the murders. I don't know if they will use an insanity or other impairment defense though.

[bigzak25]

so now you WILL shed a tear manny?

you know there are many greys in life. very few, if any issues are black and white.
ideology is fine, but you gotta know where to draw the line.....this ain't no perfect world we're living in.....

[ClintSquint]

Sounds like some of you would be in favor of a hangin'.

[Al Sharpton]

i don't think any defense should matter. regardless, he is a murderer. he killed a deputy with his bare hands... too bad he didn't put up a fight when the cops came to get him from that apartment.. then, they could've just killed him in a gunfight...no trial needed...

ALLEDGEDLY! ALLEDGEDLY!

[Clandestino]

ALLEDGEDLY! ALLEDGEDLY!

fuck allegedly... he did it...

[Clandestino]

Sounds like some of you would be in favor of a hangin'.

are they holding a vote?

[NameDropper]

fuck allegedly... he did it...

You would not qualify as a potential juror.

[bigzak25]

it's open and shut. view the tapes. give the jury an hour. put him on death row to waste tax payers money....

[MannyIsGod]

there's nothing to celebrate in this case. Lets just say that I rethought some things after listening to his "hostage" speak on the news last night.

[attyjackiechiles]

it's open and shut. view the tapes. give the jury an hour. put him on death row to waste tax payers money....

What is the matter with you? Doesn't this brother deserve a fair trial?

We can spend millions in Iraq and you are worried about the expense of a trial that that this man has a right to?

Your attitude is a disgrace!

[Clandestino]

What is the matter with you? Doesn't this brother deserve a fair trial?

We can spend millions in Iraq and you are worried about the expense of a trial that that this man has a right to?

Your attitude is a disgrace!

the killer is a disgrace... and he didn't give the people he killed a fair trial. he doesn't deserve shit... he deserves bread and water til he dies

[attyjackiechiles]

the killer is a disgrace... and he didn't give the people he killed a fair trial. he doesn't deserve shit... he deserves bread and water til he dies

Save that kind of talk for another country. You're in America where people have rights!

[Clandestino]

Save that kind of talk for another country. You're in America where people have rights!

Exactly! people have the right to not be raped(which he did already) and not to be killed(which he did recently numberous times).

KILL HIM!

[bigzak25]

what a fucked up country we live in where people are more concerned with the rights of the trash then throwing it out....

dude, if I, my friend, my mama, etc gunned down a couple innocent peeps, i'd tap the vein so you can get a good shot at it....

i never said he doesn't deserve a trial. i said it would be good if he went down in a hail of bullets. i stand by that. i also said it should be an open and shut case. and it should be. we shall see.

some may have been swayed by some womans statements, which i didn't see...his hostage that he let go......well perhaps he saw himself on every fucking channel....perhaps he knew he had nowhere in hell to go.....it was death or surrender....he pussed out. so be it.

[Useruser666]

there's nothing to celebrate in this case. Lets just say that I rethought some things after listening to his "hostage" speak on the news last night.

What I was asking was, do you now think he should be put to death, or is that the statement you reversed?

[MannyIsGod]

I never thought he should be put to death. I didn't feel bad for him before, I do now.

[bigzak25]

Y?

[Useruser666]

I never thought he should be put to death. I didn't feel bad for him before, I do now.

Oh, ok.

I feel worse for the people he killed, the families of those people, and the lives of others he has negatively affected.

[Clandestino]

Oh, ok.

I feel worse for the people he killed, the families of those people, and the lives of others he has negatively affected.

exactly.. manny, i think you are feeling bad for the wrong side... you are expressing sympathy for the lady he raped, the 51 year old grandmother he killed, the judge, etc..

wtf is wrong you???

[Clandestino]

Security cameras had been rolling Friday morning as Nichols — a former college linebacker who had been found in court earlier in the week with two homemade knives in his shoes — overpowered deputy Cynthia Hall as the 5-foot-tall officer escorted him to his rape trial. No one was monitoring the cameras.

dangerous motherfucker... but manny loves him... you're warped buddy

[dcole50]

why let him off easy through death? put him in an insanely strict prison.

[Clandestino]

why let him off easy through death? put him in an insanely strict prison.

death could've been cheaper and easier than a trial if the swat had just killed him..

[bigzak25]

i don't know cole...if death is the easy way out, why don't more inmates fight for it over life?

[Useruser666]

why let him off easy through death? put him in an insanely strict prison.

He was incarcerated and looked what happened? I say give a hima fair trial and let the jury decide his fate. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence at hand.

[Opinionater]

i don't know cole...if death is the easy way out, why don't more inmates fight for it over life?

IMHO, some are dying to find out.

[NeoConIV]

He was incarcerated and looked what happened? I say give a hima fair trial and let the jury decide his fate. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence at hand.
I agree that this is the issue at play for me. This guy obviously has ZERO reservations to kill. He is an absolute threat to those around him. If he kills another prison guard...what then?

The only frustrating thing is that the stay on death row is like 8 to 15 years. The point is almost moot. His proclivity to kill will be strongest in the first few years.

Our justice system is just jacked. What can I say. Totally corrupted and inefficient.

[attyjackiechiles]

Our justice system is just jacked. What can I say. Totally corrupted and inefficient.

But it is still the best judicial system in the world!




and not a bad way to make living either.
It's a career that brings me satisfaction in many ways, not the least of which is monetary.

[Useruser666]

I agree that this is the issue at play for me. This guy obviously has ZERO reservations to kill. He is an absolute threat to those around him. If he kills another prison guard...what then?

The only frustrating thing is that the stay on death row is like 8 to 15 years. The point is almost moot. His proclivity to kill will be strongest in the first few years.

Our justice system is just jacked. What can I say. Totally corrupted and inefficient.

I don't know that he will spend that much time on death row. I think the 8-10 years is an average and not like a mandatory period. I don't think there will be a great deal of room for appeals in his case, nor will there be conflicting evidence.

[MannyIsGod]

You know what, this is my last post on the subject because I'm so sick of some people in here.

Those of you who claim to be christians, could learn a lot about what a real christian is like by listening to what Ashley Smith has to say.

You are the one's who have a thirst for blood and can't wait to have your vengence carried out like a pack of rabid dogs, yet I am the one who is warped? Well coming from you Clandestino, I'll take that as a compliment. Does not Christ teach you to love everyone? So would it be so wrong if I did love Brian Nichols?

I never said I felt good about any of the acts that he commited, and I simply expressed regret over this entire situation. But as much as you would love to think that the person who commited those crimes is entirely different from every one of you; that he is some sort of monster, he is not. He is a man, the same as most of the people here.

We all live in and support the world's most violent culture. We're off on white noble steeds saving the world from violence, when we can't even control what happens on our own soil.

Say what you will about me, but don't make me out to be warped because I dont want any part of any more blood being spilled, and because I choose to give my compasion more freely. Maybe if our society was more compasionate as a whole, we'd have less cases of this happening.

[MannyIsGod]

COURT KILLER'S 'ANGEL' SPEAKS

By NILES LATHEM

Email Archives
Print Reprint

March 15, 2005 -- THE random encounter that brought about an astonishingly peaceful ending to Atlanta's ferocious weekend killing rampage began in the dead of night in the parking lot of a suburban apartment complex.

It was 2 a.m. Saturday. Ashley Smith, a 26-year-old widow and mother of a 5-year-old girl, was taking a break from unpacking, just two days after moving into a new apartment in the Bridgewater Apartment complex in Duluth, Ga.

She went out to a convenience mart to buy a pack of Marlboro Lights.

When she got back, she saw a man in a blue truck parked in one of the reserved spaces — the same man she'd seen when she left earlier. He was still sitting there, and she immediately felt frightened.

She got out of her car and hurried to the front door, according to media interviews and a lengthy statement she gave in her lawyer's office.

As she was unlocking her door, the man shoved a gun into her ribs and pushed her inside.

"Stop screaming," the man said to her. "I won't hurt you if you stop screaming."

Then he asked her, "Do you know who I am?"

When she appeared confused, he removed a University of Georgia baseball cap and asked again, "Now do you know who I am?"

Smith shuddered as recognition washed over her.

He was Brian G. Nichols, the 33-year-old, hulking ex-collegiate linebacker who on Friday, in a shocking spasm of violence, escaped from his rape trial and allegedly shot Judge Rowland Barnes, a court reporter and a sheriff's deputy to death.

Then, according to police, he pistol-whipped and carjacked his way to freedom — and later killed a customs agent while a massive manhunt was under way.

WHAT happened to Smith — after Nichols bound her hands and legs and shoved her into a bathtub — is certain to be the subject of a searing Hollywood drama one day.

For seven intense hours, Smith and the fugitive talked. They talked about God and faith, her 5-year-old child, Paige — and they talked about miracles.

The simple emotions and words of this brave waitress, who was studying to become a medical assistant, were poignant and powerful. Her gentle humanity, it appears, pierced through Nichols' red fog of rage.

And amazingly, the encounter ended at around 9:50 a.m. — not with another senseless act of violence, but with Smith cooking Nichols pancakes and eggs, and the spent fugitive finally allowing her to pick up her daughter and offering to hang her curtains.

"Will you tell Paige hello for me?" were Nichols' last words to Smith.

Atlanta cops, who arrested Nichols without a struggle after Smith called 911, were awed with how she defused the volatile situation.

"She acted very cool and levelheaded. We don't normally see that in our profession," said Police Officer Darren Moloney.

"It was absolutely the best-case scenario that happened . . . We were prepared for the worst and got the best."

ASHLEY SMITH would seem an unlikely heroine. A for mer high-school basketball player, Smith's life had gone adrift after the inexplicable and unsolved 2001 stabbing of her husband, Mark, who died in her arms.

Daughter Paige lived with an aunt while Smith went aimlessly from job to job, relatives said.

Recently, she was putting her life back together, moving into the new apartment, working as a waitress at a local sports bar and studying for her new career.

Now, as Nichols paced and threatened to kill her if police showed up, an incredible determination to survive rose up in her, overwhelming her terror.

She said initially Nichols was nervous and hostile — telling her, "I really don't feel comfortable around here," and spoke of the need to relax, sit down, watch TV and "eat some real food."

He took a shower and changed into a T-shirt from a bar where she once worked. Nichols also began to calm down and talk to his frightened hostage, who had been given permission to "hop" into the bedroom.

There she began talking about her daughter and her family tragedy.

"My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. That if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset," she recalled.

They moved to the living room.

Nichols untied her.

Smith then asked Nichols if she could read. When he agreed, she pulled out "The Purpose Driven Life," a book of Bible-driven inspiration and read him the first paragraph of the 33rd chapter, which talks about "serving God by serving others."

Nichols asked her to read it again.

They continued to talk. He looked at her family photographs. She showed him her husband's autopsy report and told him that's what the families of the people he killed will be looking at, the Atlanta Journal Constitution reported.

Nichols wondered what his family was thinking watching the news, which was dominated by his killing spree. He also told her, as if to trying to offer an explanation, that he was a "soldier," and that "his people needed him for a job to do, and he was doing it."

She recalled, "I basically just talked to him and tried to gain his trust — most of my time was spent talking to this man about my life and experiences in my life, things that had happened to me.

"He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead. He said, 'Look at me, look at my eyes. I am already dead,' " Smith said.

AS THE hours passed, they watched TV news coverage of the killings. Trust between the killer and his hostage was building to the point that at one point he called her an "angel sent from God."

"He looked at the TV, and he just said, 'I cannot believe that's me out there,' " she said.

Smith told him that his life could still have purpose, that it was a "miracle" that he was still alive.

At about 6:30 a.m., Nichols said he needed to move the truck. Smith agreed to follow him in her car, fearing that if she refused, he would kill her right then and there.

After he ditched the truck, she drove him back to her apartment, by now believing that she had his complete trust and that he would soon let her go.

She made him breakfast — pancakes and eggs.

"He was overwhelmed. 'Wow,' he said, 'real butter pancakes.' "

Smith pressed him to give up, talking about miracles and redemption.

Smith announced she needed to pick up her daughter at a local church, and Nichols asked what time she needed to leave.

She told him 9:30, washed the dishes and got ready to leave.

As she was walking out of the house, Nichols asked if he could stay a few more days, offering to give her $40. He also offered to do chores such as hang her curtains.

She replied that he could do whatever he wanted and then, incredibly, walked out into the sunny morning, free from her horrific ordeal.

Smith called the police. Nichols surrendered by holding a white T-shirt out of the window.

Nichols was taken to the high-security maximum-security prison in Atlanta. Yesterday, state prosecutors filed three murder warrants against him and the feds are expected to follow with a fourth murder charge for the murder of the customs agent.

Meanwhile, Smith met with lawyers to discuss TV interviews and book deals.

She said she believes "God brought him to my door, so he couldn't hurt anyone else."

[MannyIsGod]

Luke 15:11-32
(11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
(12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(13) And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(14) And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
(15) And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
(16) And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
(17) And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
(18) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
(19) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
(20) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
(21) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
(22) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
(23) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
(24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(25) Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
(26) And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
(27) And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
(28) And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
(29) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
(30) But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
(31) And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
(32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

[NeoConIV]

Not sure if you were referencing me as bloodthirsty or not, but if looking out for and trying to protect Nichols next possible victim makes me bloodthirsty, then I guess I'm bloodthirsty. I think Nichols is a day late and a dollar short for a little Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden. How can we be sure this can be sustained?

I agree with what you say Manny about Nichols really being no different than anyone else. But we simply have to hold people to account. Especially those who have shown no reservation to kill. Society has an obligation to protect those who will have to tend to this man.

[bigzak25]

i don't care if he's mary poppins. this is not about how he's such a good man, that was blessed with pancakes and good conversation....

if anything the good Lord was watching down upon that woman and her little girl and protecting them.

and i was right. he's watching himself on tv, and knows he's done for.

everyone reforms when they know it's their ass....

at the end of the day, it's not about his character. it's only about his actions.

he must pay the price.

this softer gentler society bullshit is crazy. a softer gentler society will prevent rapes and murders? dude...pass that shit....

give an inch, and the corrupt will take a fucking mile.....

[NeoConIV]

ditto Zak.

[JoeChalupa]

The Prodigal Son.

One of my favorites.

Let thee without sin cast the first stone.

[Clandestino]

You know what, this is my last post on the subject because I'm so sick of some people in here.

Those of you who claim to be christians, could learn a lot about what a real christian is like by listening to what Ashley Smith has to say.

You are the one's who have a thirst for blood and can't wait to have your vengence carried out like a pack of rabid dogs, yet I am the one who is warped? Well coming from you Clandestino, I'll take that as a compliment. Does not Christ teach you to love everyone? So would it be so wrong if I did love Brian Nichols?

I never said I felt good about any of the acts that he commited, and I simply expressed regret over this entire situation. But as much as you would love to think that the person who commited those crimes is entirely different from every one of you; that he is some sort of monster, he is not. He is a man, the same as most of the people here.

We all live in and support the world's most violent culture. We're off on white noble steeds saving the world from violence, when we can't even control what happens on our own soil.

Say what you will about me, but don't make me out to be warped because I dont want any part of any more blood being spilled, and because I choose to give my compasion more freely. Maybe if our society was more compasionate as a whole, we'd have less cases of this happening.

manny, you are living a dream world if you think a compassionate society will prevent killers such as nichols from killing and raping.

and you can ask the person he raped if he is a monster. it is sad that you can't ask the 51 yr old grandmother if he is a monster because he killed her.

there will always be violence in every society. if you think there will a time of 100% peace in the world you will be sadly disappointed. basically, we have to punish wrongdoers swiftly and without remorse. i would have no regret or remorse...i would actually feel like i helped society if i were allowed to flip the switch on his electric chair..

[MannyIsGod]

Neo, I understand what you were saying, and the comment was not directed at you. I don't agree, there are other ways to protect people without killing him. Sticking him in solitary confinement for one. He should have been guarded much better than he actually was.

No no, my comment was directed at people who called me warped and then say:


i would actually feel like i helped society if i were allowed to flip the switch on his electric chair..



Yeah, no one in here wants to take a look at what they do to contribute to a violent society.

[MannyIsGod]

The Prodigal Son.

One of my favorites.

Let thee without sin cast the first stone.

I listened to it told on many different Sundays.

[MannyIsGod]

I am really disaponinted that more people in here can't see past pancakes to what is really amazing about that story however.

[Kori Ellis]

I'll post the same thing here that I did in a Death Penalty thread four months ago.


For those against the death penalty, I have a question ... or more like a scenario.

I know someone that when he was 22-years-old, his mother was kidnapped, raped anally and vaginally repeatedly, and then the killer stuck a knife in her pelvic area and slit her wide open all the way up to her throat -- basically gutting her out, then left her body in a ditch.

The lady left behind the 22-year-old son, a 10-year-old daughter, and a husband of 30 years.

If she was your mom, death penalty or rehab for the killer?

[JoeChalupa]

I'd want justice and if the death penalty applied and was recommended by the jury then so be it. I'm not against the death penalty but I'm also not quick to support it either.

[Clandestino]

Neo, I understand what you were saying, and the comment was not directed at you. I don't agree, there are other ways to protect people without killing him. Sticking him in solitary confinement for one. He should have been guarded much better than he actually was.

he should never have raped and killed people... no sympathy for him. i only have sympathy for the VICTIMS...not the VICTIMIZER!

and me thinking he should die in no way makes society violent. i want people accountable for their actions. and i don't believe in a tooth for a tooth exactly... otherwise, i'd say, first have someone rape him, then kill him.

[Useruser666]

I hope you weren't directing that blood thirsty comment to me Manny. I have not even brought religion into this thread. I think the death penalty is appropriate for this man. He of course should have a fair trial by a jury of his peers. He should be able to defend himself to the utmost of which the law allows. I believe that the violence of the crimes he committed (allegedly), and that IMHO, he is a great threat to society. And I would like to define society not soley as the people outside of the prison, but those that guard and come within close contact to such threats on a regular basis.

Side note: Clan, I don't think the 51 year-old grandmother/guard is deceased. She was listed in critcal condition. The four deaths were the judge, the guard in the courtroom, the court reporter, and the INS agent. Although, I will add that being beating into critical condition is surely not a pleasant experience.

[MannyIsGod]

Ex-hostage: 'I wanted to gain his trust'

Monday, March 14, 2005 Posted: 10:42 AM EST (1542 GMT)

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Ashley Smith: "My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy."

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more videoVIDEO
Ashley Smith details her experience as a hostage.
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A woman's 911 call led to Nichols' capture.
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Friends and family of the suspect react to allegations.
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RELATED
Gallery: Saturday's events
• Suspect told hostage she was 'angel'
• Timeline: Chronology of the case
• Relatives of suspect stunned
• Lawyers: Court security extensive
• Slain judge inspired others
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ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Authorities say courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols held Ashley Smith hostage for hours in her suburban apartment northeast of Atlanta before she was able to get away and call 911.

On Sunday, Smith, 26, recounted her ordeal to reporters in her attorney's office.

SMITH: It was about 2 o'clock in the morning. I was at -- I was leaving my apartment to go to the store. I noticed a blue truck in the parking lot with a man in it pulling up. And he parked in the parking space. And I really didn't think too much about it because I just moved into that apartment, you know, two days prior. So I thought maybe he was a neighbor coming home or something.

So I left and went to the store. And I came back to my apartment about five minutes later. And the truck was still there. And he was still in it. And it was in a different parking space. It was actually behind one where I had left. So I pulled back in there.

And I kind of got a little worried then. I thought there's somebody still in that truck. So I got my key to my house ready. And I opened up my car door, and I got out and shut it. And I heard his shut right behind me.

I started walking to my door, and I felt really you know scared. And he was right there. I started to scream, and he put a gun to my side and he said, "Don't scream. If you don't scream I won't hurt you. ... He told me to go into the bathroom, so I went to the bathroom. And he followed into the bathroom and he said, "Do you know who I am?" and I said no because he had a hat on.

And then he he took his hat off, and he said, "Now do you know who I am?" And I said, "Yeah, I know who you are. Please don't hurt, just please don't hurt me. I have a 5-year-old little girl. Please don't hurt me."

He said, "I'm not going hurt you if you just do what I say." I said, "All right." So I got -- he told me to get into the bathtub, so I got in the bathtub. And he said, "I really don't feel comfortable around here. I'm going to walk around your house for a few minutes just so I get the feel of it."

I said, "OK."

He said, "I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt anybody else, so please don't do anything that's going to hurt you." He said, "You know, somebody could have heard your scream already. And if they did, the police are on the way. And I'm going to have to hold you hostage. And I'm going to have to kill you and probably myself and lots of other people. And I don't want that."

And I said, "OK. I will do what you say."

He looked around my house for a few minutes. I heard him opening up drawers and just going through my stuff. And he came back in. And he said, "I want to relax. And I don't feel comfortable with you right now. So I'm going to have to tie you up."

He brought some masking tape and an extension cord and a curtain in there. And I kind of thought he was going to strangle me. I was -- I was really kind of scared.

But he told me to turn around and put my hands behind my back. And he wrapped my hands in a prayer -- in a praying position, so I did that. And he wrapped masking tape around my hands.

And then he told me to go into my bedroom. And I sat down on the bed like he asked. And he wrapped my legs with masking tape and an extension cord. He also took a curtain and put it around my stomach. And he asked me if I could get up. And I got up.

He said, "Can you walk?"

And I said, "No."

And so he picked me up and took me to the bathroom. And he put me on a stool that I have in my bathroom. He said he wanted to take a shower.

So I said, "OK. You take a shower."

He said, "Well, I'm going to put a towel over your head so you don't have to watch me take a shower."

So I said, "OK. All right."

He got in the shower. Took a shower. And then he got out of the shower. And he had the guns laying on the counter. But -- I guess he really wasn't worried about me grabbing them because I was tied up.

He asked me if I had a T-shirt. I told him where to find one.

So he got dressed. He put on some clothes that I had in my house that were men's clothes. And then he came back in the bathroom.

He said, "Can you get up?"

So I got up.

He said, "Can you walk now?"

I said, "No, but I can hop."

So I hopped to my bedroom and sat on the bed. And he cut the tape off of me, unwrapped the extension cord and curtain.

I guess, at that point, he kind of made me feel like he was comfortable enough with me that he untied me.

So -- we went back in the bathroom. That's where he felt more comfortable -- in the bathroom away from the front of the house, I guess. And we just talked.

I asked him if -- I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me no.

My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. That if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset.

He still told me no.

But I could kind of feel that he started to -- to know who I was. He said maybe. Maybe I'll let you go -- just maybe. We'll see how things go.

We went to my room. And I asked him if I could read.

He said, "What do you want to read?"

"Well, I have a book in my room." So I went and got it. I got my Bible. And I got a book called "The Purpose-Driven Life."

I turned it to the chapter that I was on that day. It was Chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, "Stop, will you read it again?"

I said, "Yeah. I'll read it again."

So I read it again to him.

It mentioned something about what you thought your purpose in life was. What were you -- what talents were you given? What gifts were you given to use?

And I asked him what he thought. And he said, "I think it was to talk to people and tell them about you."

I basically just talked to him and tried to gain his trust. I wanted to leave to go see my daughter. That was really important. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else.

He came into my apartment telling me that he was a soldier. And that people -- that his people needed him for a job to do. And he was doing it.

And -- I didn't want him to hurt anybody else. He didn't want to hurt anybody else. He just told me that he wanted a place to stay to relax, to sit down and watch TV, to eat some real food.

I talked to him about my family. I told him about things that had happened in my life. I asked him about his family. I asked him why he did what he did.

And his reason was because he was a soldier.

I asked him why he chose me and why he chose Bridgewater Apartments. And he said he didn't know, just randomly.

But after we began to talk, he said he thought that I was an angel sent from God. And that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ. And that he was lost and God led him right to me to tell him that he had hurt a lot of people. And the families -- the people -- to let him know how they felt, because I had gone through it myself.

He told me that he didn't -- he didn't want to hurt the agent that he hurt. He begged and pleaded with him to do things his way, and he didn't. So he had to kill him.

He said that he didn't shoot the deputy, that he hit her. And that he hoped she lived.

He showed me a picture of the -- the agent that he did kill. And I tried to explain to him that he killed a 40-year-old man that was probably a father, a husband, a friend.

And he really began to trust me, to feel my feelings. He looked at pictures of my family. He asked me to -- if he could look at them and hold them ...

I really didn't keep track of time too much because I was really worried about just living. I didn't want to die. I didn't want him to hurt anybody else. And I really didn't want him to hurt himself or anyone else to hurt him. He's done enough -- he had done enough. And he really, honestly when I looked at him, he looked like he didn't want to do it anymore.

He asked me what I thought he should do.

And I said, "I think you should turn yourself in. If you don't turn yourself in," this is what I said, "If you don't turn yourself in, lots more people are going to get hurt. And you're probably going to die."

And he said, "I don't want that to happen."

He said, "Can I stay here for a few days? I just want to eat some real food and watch some TV and sleep and just do normal things that normal people do."

So, of course, I said, "Sure. You can stay here." I didn't want -- I wanted to gain his trust.

Most of my time was spent talking to this man about my life and experiences in my life, things that had happened to me.

He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead. He said, "Look at me, look at my eyes. I am already dead."

And I said, "You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die, you can. It's your choice."

But after I started to read to him, he saw -- I guess he saw my faith and what I really believed in. And I told him I was a child of God and that I wanted to do God's will. I guess he began to want to. That's what I think.

He got to know me. I got to know him. He talked about his family. How -- he was wondering what they were thinking. He said, "They're probably -- don't know what to think."

We watched the news. He looked at the TV and he just said, "I cannot believe that's me on there."

About 5:36 -- well, 6, 6:30, he said, "I need to make a move." And I said, "A move?" He said, "I need to get rid of this car before daylight, this truck [the agent's]." I said, "OK."

I knew that if I didn't agree to go with him, follow him to get the truck -- he'd just take the truck, then one thing -- or two -- one of two things. He would kill me right then, and say, "All right, well, if you're not going to help me, then I won't need you anymore." Or the police would never find him, or it would take longer. And someone else would get hurt, and I was trying to avoid that.

So I went. ... "I said, can I take my cell phone?" He said, "Do you want to?" I said, "Yeah." I'm thinking, well, I might call the police then, and I might not. So I took it anyway. He didn't take any guns with him. The guns were laying around the house. Pretty much after he untied [me], they were just laying around the house.

And at one point, he said, "You know, I'd rather you shoot -- the guns are laying in there -- I'd rather you shoot me than them." I said, "I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

So we went to take the truck, and I was behind him, following him. And I thought about calling the police, you know, I thought, he's about to be in the car with me right now. So I can call the police, and when he gets in the car, then they can surround me and him together, and I could possibly get hurt, or we can go back to my house.

And I really felt deep down inside that he was going to let me see my little girl. And I said -- or then when I leave, he can be there by himself, or he -- he finally agreed to let me go see my daughter. I had to leave at 9, 9:30. And I really believed that he was going to.

From the time he walked into my house until we were taking that truck, he was a totally different person to me. I felt very threatened, scared. I felt he was going to kill me when -- when I first -- when he first put the gun to my side, but when I followed him to pick -- to take the truck, I felt he was going to -- he was really going to turn himself in. So he took the truck.

He got in the car, and I said, "Are you ready now?" And he said, "Give me a few days, please." I said, "Come on, you've got to turn yourself in now." I didn't feel like he might -- I felt like he might change his mind, that he might not want to turn himself in the next day, or a few days after that, and that if he did feel that way, then he would need money, and the only way he could get money was if he hurt somebody and took it from them.

So we went back to my house and got in the house. And he was hungry, so I cooked him breakfast. He was overwhelmed with -- "Wow," he said, "real butter, pancakes?"

And I just talked with him a little more, just about -- about -- we pretty much talked about God ... what his reason was, why he made it out of there.

I said, "Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting here right in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?"

I said, "You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this. You need to go to prison and you need to share the word of God with them, with all the prisoners there."

Then 9 came. He said, "What time do you have to leave?" I said, "I need to be there at 10, so I need to leave about 9:30." And I sat down and talked to him a little bit more. And he put the guns under the bed, like ... I'm not going to mess around with them anymore.

He gave me some money when I was about to leave. Just kind of like he knew. I said, "You might need this money." And he said, "No, I don't need it. I'm going to be here for the next few days."

I basically said, keep the money. And he said, "No, I don't need it." He asked me if there was anything I could do -- or he could do for me before I left, or while I was going. He says, "Is there anything I can do while you're gone?"

I know he was probably hoping deep down that I was going to come back, but I think he knew that I was going to -- what I had to do, and I had to turn him in, and I gave him -- I asked him several times, you know, "Come on, just go with me." He said, "I'll go with you in a few days."

But when he asked me, "Is there anything I can do while you're gone, like hang your curtains or something?" And I said, "Yeah, if you want to."

He just wanted some normalness to his life right then. He -- I think he realized all this -- all this that I've been through, this is not me. I don't know, that's my opinion of what he ...

Then I left my house at 9:30. And I got in the car. And I immediately called 911. I told them that he was there, and she asked me where I was. I said, "Oh, I'm on my way to see my daughter." I felt glad to just really be on my way to see my daughter. She said, "You've got to turn around and go to the leasing office." So that's what I did.

[JoeChalupa]

God truly works in mysterious ways.

[MannyIsGod]

I never came into this thread to argue the death penalty. We've all been through that and you all believe what you want, and I'll do the same.

But yeah, people decided to jump on because I displayed some fucking compassion.

I don't need to point out the one's who the bloodthirsty comment was directed at. You konw who you are.

[Useruser666]

I never came into this thread to argue the death penalty. We've all been through that and you all believe what you want, and I'll do the same.

But yeah, people decided to jump on because I displayed some fucking compassion.

I don't need to point out the one's who the bloodthirsty comment was directed at. You konw who you are.

As funny as it sounds, why do you criticize people so harshly, then take offense when the tables are turned? I would like to know now who the bloodthirsty comment was directed towards? Obviously, I'm not the only one who is unsure from reading what you wrote. You are by no means obligated to come forward. Would you classify me as bloodthirsty from what I've said in this thread?

[MannyIsGod]

I just find it disgusting (maybe I shouldn't in this forum) at being called warped for displaying compassion.

You make up your own mind whether or not your bloodthirsty or whether that comment was directed at you.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, I'm critical of people when it comes to their facts to back up their arguements, or rather when those facts are non exisitant. That is a far cry from what went on in this thread. You may not think so, and thats fine. But there's a reason that I don't get into arguements with people on this board who come with well thought out arguements and bring facts to the table rather than opinions based in crap.

You will also note my willingness to admit when I'm wrong. See the thread with Exstatic yesterday.

[Clandestino]

As funny as it sounds, why do you criticize people so harshly, then take offense when the tables are turned? I would like to know now who the bloodthirsty comment was directed towards? Obviously, I'm not the only one who is unsure from reading what you wrote. You are by no means obligated to come forward. Would you classify me as bloodthirsty from what I've said in this thread?

manny, does this shit all the time... and i'm 100% sure he was directing bloodthirsty towards me... however i don't give a fuck bc the guy is a rapist, beater, murderer, etc and manny thinks because he didn't kill the last woman he should be treated with compassion... fuck that.. i feel sorry for all the people he already harmed... he deserves nothing but a death sentence. i don't care if he had a bad childhood or is mentally incompetent or anything.. he kills and rapes.. kill him!

[bigzak25]

well, i am very happy that the woman survived the ordeal, and I give all the credit to God.

but manny, are you seriously trying to go with, "you see, this murdering rapist is not thaaat bad....all he wanted was a little normalcy...a little down time..."

i won't argue with that. i'm sure that is all he wanted.
but he chose the path that he wanted to go down...
he alone is responsible for that.

i would definitely like some more info on this "soldier" crap he's trying to pass...

honestly, i hear all the compassion and love, and frankly i can agree with the ideal....

but there is a line to be drawn. this man said fuck the line too many times.

agreed, what a shame and what a waste...
but remember, it is not society that makes the choice....
it is each individual....
as he said in the article you posted "look into my eyes, i'm already dead"

[bigzak25]

I just find it disgusting (maybe I shouldn't in this forum) at being called warped for displaying compassion.


i didn't make that comment, but i will say that i don't think you were being called warped for displaying compassion.

you choice of who to be compassionate towards is what was called warped.

at least that's how i understood it.

[Useruser666]

BTW, I'm critical of people when it comes to their facts to back up their arguements, or rather when those facts are non exisitant. That is a far cry from what went on in this thread. You may not think so, and thats fine. But there's a reason that I don't get into arguements with people on this board who come with well thought out arguements and bring facts to the table rather than opinions based in crap.

You will also note my willingness to admit when I'm wrong. See the thread with Exstatic yesterday.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that this subject is not one that can always be supported by facts or figures. It involves a lot of gut feeling and opinion. I understand the ideals you expressed in here. But it's also my belief that this man's case is a prime example of why the death penalty exists.

[MannyIsGod]

manny, does this shit all the time... and i'm 100% sure he was directing bloodthirsty towards me... however i don't give a fuck bc the guy is a rapist, beater, murderer, etc and manny thinks because he didn't kill the last woman he should be treated with compassion... fuck that.. i feel sorry for all the people he already harmed... he deserves nothing but a death sentence. i don't care if he had a bad childhood or is mentally incompetent or anything.. he kills and rapes.. kill him!

Ok dude, do me a favor. Next semester, sign up for a class that requires you to read a piece and gather a meaning from it.

Don't try to argue my point for me if you cant get it right.

You've missed the point of everything I've done in this thread, which is no suprise because you miss it all the damn time.

I posted what the article and interview with Ashely Smith not because I wanted you to give Nichols compassion for sparing her life, but because I thought maybe you would find it amazing that she was able to show an incredible amount of compassion torwards him.

If she was able to do that, then I find it within myself to do the same.

When I posted that I had changed my mind about how I would feel if he was executed, people asked why. I provided them with the reasoning behind it.

[MannyIsGod]

but manny, are you seriously trying to go with, "you see, this murdering rapist is not thaaat bad....all he wanted was a little normalcy...a little down time..."


No Zak, what I'm trying to go with is that if I'm able to give even someone who has done the kind of things he's done some compassion, then I am a better man for it.

[MannyIsGod]

i didn't make that comment, but i will say that i don't think you were being called warped for displaying compassion.

you choice of who to be compassionate towards is what was called warped.

at least that's how i understood it.


They said the same about Jesus. I think that puts me in some good company.

[bigzak25]

ok. fair enough. so my question to you is, where do you draw the line? or do you?

[Clandestino]

Ok dude, do me a favor. Next semester, sign up for a class that requires you to read a piece and gather a meaning from it.
i'll do that when you sign up for a spelling class..

Don't try to argue my point for me if you cant get it right.

You've missed the point of everything I've done in this thread, which is no suprise because you miss it all the damn time.

I posted what the article and interview with Ashely Smith not because I wanted you to give Nichols compassion for sparing her life, but because I thought maybe you would find it amazing that she was able to show an incredible amount of compassion torwards him.

If she was able to do that, then I find it within myself to do the same.

When I posted that I had changed my mind about how I would feel if he was executed, people asked why. I provided them with the reasoning behind it.

i never tried to argue any point for you. and do you think ashley smith would have given him compassion if he hadn't put a gun to her head?

you still have failed to show any compassion for the victims...that is why i say you are warped...

[Clandestino]

They said the same about Jesus. I think that puts me in some good company.

i have yet to see any pictures of Jesus shooting the finger... you are not in his company in any way, shape or form.

[MannyIsGod]

The problem with that line of reasoning is that this subject is not one that can always be supported by facts or figures. It involves a lot of gut feeling and opinion. I understand the ideals you expressed in here. But it's also my belief that this man's case is a prime example of why the death penalty exists.

Oh it sure as hell better be when amoung the main arguments for the death penaty are:

1. It is a deterent. If it is, proove it.
2. To expensive. Prove it with figures
3. There is no other way to keep safe. I can disproove that without any damn figures.


Now, if you want to say you want the death penalty for vengence/justice purposes, that is something that is only opinion based. But that's not the sole arguement used for capital punishment.

[MannyIsGod]

i never tried to argue any point for you. and do you think ashley smith would have given him compassion if he hadn't put a gun to her head?

YES

So I went. ... "I said, can I take my cell phone?" He said, "Do you want to?" I said, "Yeah." I'm thinking, well, I might call the police then, and I might not. So I took it anyway. He didn't take any guns with him. The guns were laying around the house. Pretty much after he untied [me], they were just laying around the house.



you still have failed to show any compassion for the victims...that is why i say you are warped...

I've done nothing but show compassion for them from the moment I heard about it.

[Clandestino]

Oh it sure as hell better be when amoung the main arguments for the death penaty are:

1. It is a deterent. If it is, proove it.
2. To expensive. Prove it with figures
3. There is no other way to keep safe. I can disproove that without any damn figures.


Now, if you want to say you want the death penalty for vengence/justice purposes, that is something that is only opinion based. But that's not the sole arguement used for capital punishment.

death was a deterent to that SOB Nichols from killing again.


He asked me what I thought he should do.

And I said, "I think you should turn yourself in. If you don't turn yourself in," this is what I said, "If you don't turn yourself in, lots more people are going to get hurt. And you're probably going to die."

And he said, "I don't want that to happen."

[MannyIsGod]

i have yet to see any pictures of Jesus shooting the finger... you are not in his company in any way, shape or form.

Father Paul would say you are wrong.

[MannyIsGod]

ok. fair enough. so my question to you is, where do you draw the line? or do you?

I would like to think there is no line to be drawn. Everyone is entitled to compassion.

For a non christian, I put a lot of stock in the philosophy of Jesus, and he was willing to give everyone more than a fair shake. If everyone lived that way, we'd all be much better off.

Now, I don't always live up to that, but I think it's important to try to.

[MannyIsGod]

death was a deterent to that SOB Nichols from killing again.

Oh yeah, definetly.
:rolleyes

And at one point, he said, "You know, I'd rather you shoot -- the guns are laying in there -- I'd rather you shoot me than them." I said, "I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

Yeah, and the thought of the death penalty really stopped him from killing. I mean, if you discount the 4 murders that he had in one day.

[Clandestino]

Oh yeah, definetly.
:rolleyes

And at one point, he said, "You know, I'd rather you shoot -- the guns are laying in there -- I'd rather you shoot me than them." I said, "I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

okay, if you think he is such a stand up guy, then help him pay for a lawyer instead of some court appointed lawyer... are you willing to do that mr. compassionate?

[MannyIsGod]

#1 I don't think he's a stand up guy.


You know, trying to talk something over with you is like trying to talk to a 2 year old. You can repeat yourself over and over again, and get no where.

I think everyone else except you understands what I'm trying to say. Why is that?

[bigzak25]

so you would give equal compassion to a child rapist/murderer?

would Jesus forgive this man? maybe. but this man only turned a new leaf when his picture was on every channel and the cops were in shoot to kill mode.

why didn't he turn a new leaf after he was caught the first time?

Jesus don't like people that turn to him on their death beds.
He will say that he does not know you.

and i don't find anything amazing about the ladies compassion. She was a smart religious woman in survival mode. She used Jesus, her daughter, and some pancakes to seal the deal. Her compassion ended when she was free didn't it? The guy asked for a couple days....why didn't she give those days to him, i wonder?

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, I think he already has a pretty decent lawyer who has taken his case Pro Bono.

[MannyIsGod]

so you would give equal compassion to a child rapist/murderer?

would Jesus forgive this man? maybe. but this man only turned a new leaf when his picture was on every channel and the cops were in shoot to kill mode.

why didn't he turn a new leaf after he was caught the first time?

Jesus don't like people that turn to him on their death beds.
He will say that he does not know you.

and i don't find anything amazing about the ladies compassion. She was a smart religious woman in survival mode. She used Jesus, her daughter, and some pancakes to seal the deal. Her compassion ended when she was free didn't it? The guy asked for a couple days....why didn't she give those days to him, i wonder?

Zak, the bottom line is if you don't feel you shoudl give this man any compassion, don't.

And her compassion didn't end when she was free. She felt (and I think she was right) that turning him in was the best thing to do for him.

[Clandestino]

#1 I don't think he's a stand up guy.


You know, trying to talk something over with you is like trying to talk to a 2 year old. You can repeat yourself over and over again, and get no where.

I think everyone else except you understands what I'm trying to say. Why is that?

i feel the same way about you all the time buddy... except you're a 2 yr old with idealistic thoughts that will never happen("if everyone were compassionate in the world, etc").. you sound like a fucking beauty queen, "my wish is for world peace" lol..stfu!

[Clandestino]

Zak, the bottom line is if you don't feel you shoudl give this man any compassion, don't.

And her compassion didn't end when she was free. She felt (and I think she was right) that turning him in was the best thing to do for him.

so he could be killed

[MannyIsGod]

Well, you apparently have no reading skills.

"I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

If she wanted him to die, she could have done it herself.

[MannyIsGod]

i feel the same way about you all the time buddy... except you're a 2 yr old with idealistic thoughts that will never happen("if everyone were compassionate in the world, etc").. you sound like a fucking beauty queen, "my wish is for world peace" lol..stfu!

Yeah, such a bad thing to want.

[Clandestino]

Yeah, such a bad thing to want.

but UNREALISTIC! wake up and live in the real world and you'll be more productive...

[Clandestino]

Well, you apparently have no reading skills.

"I don't want anyone else to die, not even you."

If she wanted him to die, she could have done it herself.

little women will say anything to big male rapists/murders in order to survive..

[bigzak25]

Zak, the bottom line is if you don't feel you should give this man any compassion, don't.

And her compassion didn't end when she was free. She felt (and I think she was right) that turning him in was the best thing to do for him.


that's one bottom line.

another is that you are more than willing to give this man compassion when he repeatedly showed none for others, and i'd venture to say, your world of ideals would come crashing down if such a monster had ever directly affected you or your loved ones lives.....or maybe....just maybe, you make the man that murders/rapes your loved one some pancakes....i dunno.

and if you believe that she turned him in for HIS benefit, you are really tokin it.

but 2 each there own....

[MannyIsGod]

How is wanting an indealistic world unrealistic?

I agree that one occuring is unrealistic, but why the hell should I dictate my actions like that? I have values that I stick to.

[Spurminator]

I don't know why some of you equate opposition to the death penalty as pity or compassion on the criminal. I hope he faces serious, miserable hard time but I'm still against execution.

And there's nothing unrealistic about abolishing the death penalty. It will happen sooner than you think.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, this woman could come out what she felt, and you still woudln't believe her.

OH WAIT, she has.

Zak, I don't believe he should be let free by any means. Life, and a hard life, in prison will do just fine.

I think you have a misunderstanding by what compassion is in this context.

[Clandestino]

I don't know why some of you equate opposition to the death penalty as pity or compassion on the criminal. I hope he faces serious, miserable hard time but I'm still against execution.

And there's nothing unrealistic about abolishing the death penalty. It will happen sooner than you think.

unrealistic is manny talking about "if everyone were compassionate, things like this many not happen"

we weren't referring to the death penalty in that case...

[Clandestino]

You know, this woman could come out what she felt, and you still woudln't believe her.

OH WAIT, she has.

Zak, I don't believe he should be let free by any means. Life, and a hard life, in prison will do just fine.

I think you have a misunderstanding by what compassion is in this context.

why doesn't death suit him?

[MannyIsGod]

unrealistic is manny talking about "if everyone were compassionate, things like this many not happen"

we weren't referring to the death penalty in that case...

So you're saying that if everyone was compassionate, this stuff woudl still happen?

[MannyIsGod]

why doesn't death suit him?

You konw, if you ever get the chance, ask Ashley Smith.

[Clandestino]

So you're saying that if everyone was compassionate, this stuff woudl still happen?

everyone WILL NEVER be compassionate...there WILL ALWAYS BE rapes, murders, thefts, etc...

a world with no crime of any sort will never happen...

[Clandestino]

You konw, if you ever get the chance, ask Ashley Smith.

i don't need to ask her... i KNOW death is the best sentence for him.. i just wish that the swat team would've killed him..

[bigzak25]

so you anti-death penalty peeps think it's more compassionate to lock him up, maybe in isolation for the rest of his life than to end his misery?

a dark room. maybe a plate of food a couple times a day....

maybe imprisonment for rapists/murderers is too cush.
if it was hell, inmates would be clamoring to be put out of their misery...

[Clandestino]

so you anti-death penalty peeps think it's more compassionate to lock him up, maybe in isolation for the rest of his life than to end his misery?

a dark room. maybe a plate of food a couple times a day....

maybe imprisonment for rapists/murderers is too cush.
if it was hell, inmates would be clamoring to be put out of their misery...

actually, if they are good, they are let out for up to 1hr every so often to be put in a 10x10 cage for exercise...

[Spurminator]

So now you guys are concerned about the criminals? Is that compassion I smell? ;)

As long as he's alive, he has a chance to reform himself. Whether he's the Prison Gentleman or simply stops masturbating in solitary confinement. The chance to reform oneself is something that should never be taken from anyone, regardless of their past.

[Useruser666]

I'm sorry, I guess this is just my personal opinion. I feel that this man deserves to die for the crimes he has committed. I think that if he is proven guilty of the counts of murder currently against him he should be put to death. I don't think it is required of us to grant a person who takes another's life or even multiple lives, the change to reform or redeem themselves. Even if they could be held for the rest of there lives without risk to a single other individual, I don't think that should even be a consideration.

I don't need to bring Jesus or religion into my argument, because frankly, I think it's irrelevent. Fell free to justify your mown stances with religious references, but that is a steep slope to go down.

AS far as the cost of executing people, to me that is another mute point. I don't think price should be that much of a consideration in how justice is served. I'm not saying that it isn't, just that I am not, nor have ever tried to make that point.

The case against this man won't be a question of innocence or of being wrongly accused and convicted of crime. There will be unrefutable evidence for atleast the three killings in the courthouse. We are left then with the question of the man's sanity or his mental stablility at the time of the crimes. This is the only part I can see as being debatable.

I think he was of enough mental stablity to devise a plan of escape, follow through with it, and even be succesful. Now, if he didn't mean to kill the people, why did he go to the court room, why did he kill the judge and the court reporter? What threat to him did they pose? I could understand the motive for killing the guards, but as the limited facts seem to point, he had a specific prpose in what he did. It's not a simple reaction/action set of circumstances.

The man committed a crime worthy of him being put to death. That is my opinion.

[Jekka]

little women will say anything to big male rapists/murders in order to survive..

Whoa, son.

Women who have been raped have often wished for death over what is happening to them. It is the most violating thing you can do to someone, to rape them. When you are taught to fear parking garages and dark streets and parks after dark because society teaches you that being little is the most desirable thing, automatically victimizing you, then you can talk. And how many women just get raped? There is usually violence attached to that because most women won't lie down and take rape or attempted murder and the people that commit rape are usually violent in the first place. The very nature of rape is violent. That condescending attitude is not flattering on you.

[Spurminator]

I don't think it is required of us to grant a person who takes another's life or even multiple lives, the change to reform or redeem themselves.

This, I think, sums up the difference of opinion. Those of us in the anti-Death-Penalty camp don't believe the "chance to reform" is ours to give or deny in the first place.

[Guru of Nothing]

Man, I won't EVEN attempt to read the entire contents of this thread before posting my 2 cents worth.

Although I typically oppose the death penalty for economic reasons, Spurm makes a interesting argument with "Those of us in the anti-Death-Penalty camp don't believe the "chance to reform" is ours to give or deny in the first place."

Obviously, I'm not a Christian, but to those of you that are, did God really mean it when "he" said, Thou Shalt Not Kill?

[Spurminator]

Well, I'd have to say that The Old Testament is probably more favorable to the pro-death penalty crowd. On the surface, anyway. However, we are not establishing Israel here... It's just my opinion, but I think Jesus Christ would oppose it.

[bigzak25]

This, I think, sums up the difference of opinion. Those of us in the anti-Death-Penalty camp don't believe the "chance to reform" is ours to give or deny in the first place.


if i'm on a jury, it's 1/12th my choice.....

you say chance to reform, i say chance to escape, chance to corrupt other inmates....chance to keep killing.


i imagine many women would say anything to avoid being raped if possible as well, considering the hell you described jka.

[Useruser666]

This, I think, sums up the difference of opinion. Those of us in the anti-Death-Penalty camp don't believe the "chance to reform" is ours to give or deny in the first place.

But what about the right to live that was denied to the victim by the murderer? I don't believe that someone who takes the life or lives of others should have the right at a "chance to reform". When you commit such a terrible act, you lose that right IMHO.

[Spurminator]

you say chance to reform, i say chance to escape, chance to corrupt other inmates....chance to keep killing.

That's a valid concern, but it addresses a need to secure Lifers beyond the possibility of escape. If they attempt an escape, shoot to kill. They've been warned.

It's a very rare occurrence that Death Row/Lifers escape, and I don't think you eliminate the possibility either way.

[Spurminator]

But what about the right to live that was denied to the victim by the murderer?

What about it? It's gone anyway. You can't give it back.

[Guru of Nothing]

It is the most violating thing you can do to someone, to rape them.

I think decapitation trumps rape.

[bigzak25]

If they attempt an escape, shoot to kill.

so attempt to escape is your justification for the death penalty.

finally we've found the line that the antideath crowd will cross....bravo.

rape/murder/pillage a nursing home and a nursery man.....we'll give you life.....don't you run from me though..... :makemyday ;) ...cuz that's yo ass....got it.


if he is able to escape and getaway though, a magical reset button is pushed and life sentence reinstated..... i love your justice system! :smokin

[Spurminator]

I believe self defense is just cause to kill. If someone breaks into my house, I will shoot him to protect myself and my family. If someone is holding hostages and my sniper has a clean shot at his skull, I order a kill shot. If someone with a life sentence attempts to escape with full knowledge that he will be shot for soing so, he's made his choice.

If I have a criminal captive and he is no longer an immediate threat to society, I lock him up. It's really not that complex or inconsistent. The lives of the innocent far outweigh the lives of the guilty. But if the lives of the innocent are no longer in danger, killing the guilty becomes unnecessary.

[Useruser666]

What about it? It's gone anyway. You can't give it back.

So it's forgive and forget? So if we execute him, why can't we just let that go too?

[Spurminator]

So it's forgive and forget?

No. It's lock his ass up for life.


So if we execute him, why can't we just let that go too?

I'm not talking about bringing the executed back from the dead. I'm not even talking about vindicating them.

[Guru of Nothing]

i love your justice system!

Is, or is not, your justice system based upon the 10 commandments? Are there exceptions to the commandment, thou shalt not kill (5th commandment if I recall correctly)? Are there exceptions (of convenience, of course, because most opinions are driven by convenience) to the other nine commandments?

Inquiring minds want to know. Hypothetically, can I "covet" another man's wife without fear of getting the "shalt killed" out of me.

[Useruser666]

I believe self defense is just cause to kill. If someone breaks into my house, I will shoot him to protect myself and my family. If someone is holding hostages and my sniper has a clean shot at his skull, I order a kill shot. If someone with a life sentence attempts to escape with full knowledge that he will be shot for soing so, he's made his choice.

If I have a criminal captive and he is no longer an immediate threat to society, I lock him up. It's really not that complex or inconsistent. The lives of the innocent far outweigh the lives of the guilty. But if the lives of the innocent are no longer in danger, killing the guilty becomes unnecessary.

So, this guy is not an immediate threat, well until he kills again. But I still don't think it matters if the guy is a threat or not. If you take a life, your's should be taken from you. Eye for an eye is what should be used in cases like this.

Spurm, if this guy breaks into your house, kills your family, and you catch him and have a gun, what would you do? Honestly, think this one through.

[jalbre6]

Yikes.

Question: If the death penalty was used WAY more often, and was used by every state, how much of a drop in violent crimes would you see?

(I was thinking of the scene in Starship Troopers- movie version where the murderer was caught, tried, and executed in a single day.)

[Spurminator]

I'd probably kill him. That doesn't necessarily make it right for me to do so. Emotional/personal involvement doesn't suddenly make me better at determining right and wrong.

That's the problem with the death penalty. It's about satisfying emotions. It's about satiating our thirst for revenge. But that's not what's best for society.

[desflood]

They said the same about Jesus. I think that puts me in some good company.
Jesus said, "What a man sows, so shall he reap." Which, by plain common sense, one infers that this man should be raped and killed. Are you and Jesus still in each other's company?

[Spurminator]

Jesus said, "What a man sows, so shall he reap." Which, by plain common sense, one infers that this man should be raped and killed.

That's not what that means at all.

If it was, He would have said, "What a man sows should be sewn upon him."

[Spurminator]

Here's the full Parable. I think you'll find it has nothing to do with the discussion we're having.


It's like a man planning a journey who called his servants and put capital in their hands.** He gave one five bags of gold,* another two,* and another one,* each according to his ability.** Then he set out.** The man with the five bags began trading right away and made a profit of five bags.** The man who had the two bags added two.** But the one who had received a single bag of gold dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.** Eventually their master returned and called them to account.** The servant entrusted with five bags produced the five he had made.** "Master,"* he said,* "you left five bags with me.** See,* I have gained five more."** "Well done,* my good and trusty servant!"* said the master.** "You have proved trustworthy with a little.** Now I'll give you a greater responsibility.** Come and share your master's delight."** The man with the two bags then came and said,* "Master,* you left two bags with me.** See,* I have gained two more."** "Well done,* my good and trusty servant!"* said the master.** "You have proved trustworthy with a little.** Now I'll give you a greater responsibility.** Come and share your master's delight."** Then the man entrusted with one bag came and said,* "Master,* I knew you to be a hard man.** You reap where you have not sown.** You gather where you have not scattered.** So I was afraid and I went and hid your gold in the ground.** Here is what belongs to you."** "You lazy rascal,"* said the master.** "You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered?** Then you should have invested my money with the bankers.** On my return I would have received what is mine with interest.** Take the bag from him and hand it to the one with the ten bags.** Throw this useless servant out."

Mt 25:14-28* Lk 19:12-27

[desflood]

I stand corrected! Seems I heard a different version. Damn religion teachers... :lol

[Guru of Nothing]

Jesus said, "What a man sows, so shall he reap." Which, by plain common sense, one infers that this man should be raped and killed.

Unless you are killing a killer, right?

Exceptions!

[NeoConIV]

That's the problem with the death penalty. It's about satisfying emotions. It's about satiating our thirst for revenge. But that's not what's best for society.


I would argue it's less of a thirst for revenge as it is the bolded text below.



2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Jesus also said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesars. Give to God what is God's". I think Jesus's main concern for this man and all murder/rapists is not whether they will be executed or not, but that they have a total and complete conversion of their hearts. Jesus of course understands the very VERY finite nature of our existence on Earth and the infinite nature of the afterlife. Jesus wants the sinner to repent and have proper contrition for their sins. To renew their heart and to learn to love God and fellow man. So I think Jesus's first concern is a real and deep conversion of the heart. Everything else just doesn't matter.

[Useruser666]

I'd probably kill him. That doesn't necessarily make it right for me to do so. Emotional/personal involvement doesn't suddenly make me better at determining right and wrong.

That's the problem with the death penalty. It's about satisfying emotions. It's about satiating our thirst for revenge. But that's not what's best for society.

But it's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of what the punishment should be. If this guy is convicted, why would it be wrong to execute him?

[Guru of Nothing]

What is "2267", and who authored it?

[Spurminator]

if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Is the death penalty the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY of defending human lives?

I happen to agree with this text, but I have a much different interpretation of it than you. IMO, this speaks more to self defense than a captured criminal.


Jesus wants the sinner to repent and have proper contrition for their sins. To renew their heart and to learn to love God and fellow man. So I think Jesus's first concern is a real and deep conversion of the heart.

I agree. And I think Jesus would prefer for a criminal to have the chance of doing this instead of his fellow man determining his life must end. Which, I believe, is why He stopped the stoning of the adultress.

[Spurminator]

But it's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of what the punishment should be. If this guy is convicted, why would it be wrong to execute him?


Because it's unnecessary. The punishment should be whatever is necessary to prevent him from taking innocent lives.

[NeoConIV]

Guru, from the Catholic Catechism. I quoted it in the very first post, but as you had already said, it's already a huge thread and impossible to catch up entirely on.

Spurm, to hone in on the point of defending human lives, I want to make clear that by 'human lives' we are no longer talking about the general public, but all those people that will be in contact with him once in prison; Prison guards, other inmates etc. Those are the folks we should be in the business of protecting. But as I mentioned earlier, it's kind of pointless when the stay on death row is a number of years.

But for the sake of discussion, what I'm saying is this. Say I have the final authority on whether Nichols gets lethal injection or life without parole. I say life in prison. Two weeks later, he manages to kill a prison guard. It's my responsibility to call the prison guards spouse and let them know that Nichols has murdered their spouse. Who's hand's is the blood really on? Nichols or my own? Forget the plausibility for a moment and appreciate the point I'm trying to make. Is this just?

[Duff McCartney]

Why would you be against it anyway? I say..fry em all.

[NeoConIV]

Because it's unnecessary. The punishment should be whatever is necessary to prevent him from taking innocent lives.
Exactly, and again, the point we're making is that for these select few that have a dintinct penchant for evil and murder, innocent lives now exclusively mean fellow inmates and prison guards. Prison protects the general public from criminals, sure, but prison does not sufficiently protect prison staff and fellow inmates from stone cold killers. So if you say the punishment should be whatever is necessary to prevent him from taking innocent lives, then we are in agreement. That punishment is the death penalty.

[Spurminator]

But for the sake of discussion, what I'm saying is this. Say I have the final authority on whether Nichols gets lethal injection or life without parole. I say life in prison. Two weeks later, he manages to kill a prison guard. It's my responsibility to call the prison guards spouse and let them know that Nichols has murdered their spouse. Who's hand's is the blood really on? Nichols or my own? Forget the plausibility for a moment and appreciate the point I'm trying to make. Is this just?

The blood is absolutely on Nichols' hands. I'm sure, being human, you would place guilt on yourself, and so would the guard's wife, most likely. But it was Nichols who chose to kill again, not you.

If Nichols kills a security guard or fellow prisoner, the fault is not the system's for failing to execute him... the fault is the system's for failing to keep him from having the capability to kill. I cannot think of any scenario in which the LAST POSSIBLE RESORT to protect the further loss of life is the death penalty, can you?

[Spurminator]

So if you say the punishment should be whatever is necessary to prevent him from taking innocent lives, then we are in agreement. That punishment is the death penalty.

As long as walls can be made stronger than humans, the death penalty is never the necessary punishment.

[Guru of Nothing]

But for the sake of discussion, what I'm saying is this. Say I have the final authority on whether Nichols gets lethal injection or life without parole. I say life in prison. Two weeks later, he manages to kill a prison guard. It's my responsibility to call the prison guards spouse and let them know that Nichols has murdered their spouse. Who's hand's is the blood really on? Nichols or my own? Forget the plausibility for a moment and appreciate the point I'm trying to make. Is this just?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is sounds to me that you opt for the death penalty because of what they might do, moreso than the actual murder they have already commited. And, it sounds like a back door attempt for mortals to wrest powers from God, just to satisfy their emotions.

[NeoConIV]

As long as walls can be made stronger than humans, the death penalty is never the necessary punishment.
I understand your point of view. And I am with you with this line of arguement with murderers on a lesser scale, ie a crime of passion murderer, or any other murder that wasn't indiscriminate in nature. These folks I feel clearly pose less of a threat than those that have killed indiscriminately. Nichols falls into both categories. But we'll have to agree to disagree on Nichols. Nichols, for punitive reasons, and for the protection of others (walls stronger than humans is a bit of a simplistic answer, truth be told.) should face the needle.

[Spurminator]

NeoCon... a similar scenario to yours has occurred several times in psychiatric wards. Would you condone the execution of mental patients who may be a risk to the staff and patients in the institutions?

[desflood]

All sorts of ways to defeat walls.

[MannyIsGod]

Question: While Nichols perpetrated the acts, how much blood is on the hands of a really stupid system in Atlanta that allowed this to happen? In reality, this situation should never have come about at all with proper security.

[Spurminator]

Nichols, for punitive reasons, and for the protection of others (walls stronger than humans is a bit of a simplistic answer, truth be told.) should face the needle.

Agree to disagree, sure, but I think killing him is far more simplistic.

[Spurminator]

All sorts of ways to defeat walls.

Ten by ten foot stone room. A light 15 feet overhead. Stone walls. Water and food three times a day, with plastic utensils. A small drain.

Defeat that.

[NeoConIV]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is sounds to me that you opt for the death penalty because of what they might do, moreso than the actual murder they have already commited. And, it sounds like a back door attempt for mortals to wrest powers from God, just to satisfy their emotions.
Or to rephrase it again, is it responsible to not put down a known, indiscriminate killer? Either way though, with the current length of stay for Death Row inmates, what does it matter? The proclivity to lash out will most likely be in the first few years of Death Row, still years away from the actual sentance. So whether Nichols gets life or death, the prison guards that have to deal with him are under the same danger either way.

My line of arguement makes much more sense if the death sentance is carried out soon after the sentance. But Guru, I do believe firmly in the punitive aspect of the death penalty to be sure. I was just honing in on the 'protecting innocent lives' part of the arguement for the moment.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, for as much as a danger as this guy is, the authorities handled it really stupidly.

#1. The guarding of the prisoner was inadequete, even after previous security concerns (the shanks)
#2. The locking of weapons was incredibly stupid as well.
#3. He carjacked a car, drove it up a level in the car garage, and left it there. However, APD and the authorities spent incredible amounts of time searching for that car. Didn't anyone think that a search of the garage where many things took place might be an appropriate thing to do?
#4 Alerts were never issued to their subway system. Why the hell not, how could it have hurt?

Yeah, Nichols is a dangerous man without a doubt, but saying he has an exceptional ability to escape is wrong. It took a lot of luck and a lot of actions that were rather stupid by the authorities.

[NeoConIV]

Ten by ten foot stone room. A light 15 feet overhead. Stone walls. Water and food three times a day, with plastic utensils. A small drain.

Defeat that.
I'll have to check into prison iteneraries for death row inmates, but I'm almost positive they come into contact with prison personnel at various points. Maybe I don't know my prison facts very well.

[desflood]

Ten by ten foot stone room. A light 15 feet overhead. Stone walls. Water and food three times a day, with plastic utensils. A small drain.

Defeat that.
And then the inmate sues, claiming inhumane treatment :shootme

[Jekka]

I think decapitation trumps rape.

You don't survive decapitation to suffer the effects later.

[Useruser666]

I am not justifying execution with protecting society or the people who have to take care of inmates. I am justifying it as a punishment suitable for the crime of murder.

[bigzak25]

i'm gonna throw my hands up and say thank God I live in TEXAS where we got an express line to the needle and don't fuck around with trash murderers and rapists.....

blood is on one persons hands...nicholls.

he chose to risk his life when he committed those heinous acts.

the dead and raped are not comparable to spilt milk. if he deserved to die to prevent those acts, then he deserves to die after the fact as well.

[NeoConIV]

I am not justifying execution with protecting society or the people who have to take care of inmates. I am justifying it as a punishment suitable for the crime of murder.
What about both? As I intimate?

[Clandestino]

Whoa, son.

Women who have been raped have often wished for death over what is happening to them. It is the most violating thing you can do to someone, to rape them. When you are taught to fear parking garages and dark streets and parks after dark because society teaches you that being little is the most desirable thing, automatically victimizing you, then you can talk. And how many women just get raped? There is usually violence attached to that because most women won't lie down and take rape or attempted murder and the people that commit rape are usually violent in the first place. The very nature of rape is violent. That condescending attitude is not flattering on you.

i think you misunderstood my post... i meant that a woman will say or do anything in order to avoid being raped. no one wants that happening to them.

[Clandestino]

Question: While Nichols perpetrated the acts, how much blood is on the hands of a really stupid system in Atlanta that allowed this to happen? In reality, this situation should never have come about at all with proper security.

here you go again... instead of blaming the KILLER..you are blaming other people. :rolleyes

[MannyIsGod]

here you go again... instead of blaming the KILLER..you are blaming other people. :rolleyes

If they bear no responsiblity why bothering placing guards at all?

[Useruser666]

I do believe the courthouse and the system in place to secure Nichols are at fault. But they didn't commit the acts for Nichols, he did those things of his own free will. I think Nichols should be held responsible for the killings and the courthouse held responsible for the poor security and prisoner handling.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, but I wonder find it interesting to go back to the case of the train derailment and find the people who wanted that man held accountable for the results of his actions and compare their opions on this issue to that one in the context of the authorties being held accountable in the same manner.

[Clandestino]

why don't we just stick to this issue....

[MannyIsGod]

I think pointing out selective application of peoples ideas of accountability is very relevent to this

[Useruser666]

Yeah, but I wonder find it interesting to go back to the case of the train derailment and find the people who wanted that man held accountable for the results of his actions and compare their opions on this issue to that one in the context of the authorties being held accountable in the same manner.

The resposibility for the events of the man who parked his truck on the tracks is far greater than that of the courthouse security. The man purposefully wanted his truck to be hit by the train. The courthouse security did not want Nichols to be in a position to kill anyone. They didn't hand him the gun.

[MannyIsGod]

But the crux of that arguement was negligence, not intent. He didn't intend to kill anyone by his actions.

The point being that the situations are different, so you can differentiate them, but people don't give everyone and equal measure of what they want out of acountability.

[Clandestino]

regardless, nichols SHOULD BE KILLED... the train derailment is a different issue..they should kill him too

[MannyIsGod]

The thinking is getting to Clandestino, he's finding it difficult.

Anyhow, another question:

Is a violent society one that places a low value on life?

[Useruser666]

But the crux of that arguement was negligence, not intent. He didn't intend to kill anyone by his actions.

The point being that the situations are different, so you can differentiate them, but people don't give everyone and equal measure of what they want out of acountability.

It's not negligence to purposely put you car on a train track in order for the train to hit it. You are PURPOSEFULLY trying to get the train to hit your car. The courthouse is negligent because it was not purposefully trying to let Nichols escape, get a weapon, or kill a person. That is a HUGE difference that seperates these two incidents completely from comparrisson.

[Clandestino]

The thinking is getting to Clandestino, he's finding it difficult.

Anyhow, another question:

Is a violent society one that places a low value on life?

why don't you just stick to the situation at hand... nichols killed and raped... he deserves nothing but death...

[Clandestino]

It's not negligence to purposely put you car on a train track in order for the train to hit it. You are PURPOSEFULLY trying to get the train to hit your car. The courthouse is negligent because it was not purposefully trying to let Nichols escape, get a weapon, or kill a person. That is a HUGE difference that seperates these two incidents completely from comparrisson.

manny will say anything in order to take the blame off the KILLER!

[MannyIsGod]

So him leaving his truck on the tracks is no longer negligence? Well, if you want to believe that, feel free, but I guarntee you in the courtroom everything in that case is going to center around the world negligence.

He didn't intend to kill anyone but himself, yet his actions were negligent.

Don't take my word for it, search for some quotes form the prosecuters and I guarntee you that word has come up a lot.

So unless you are arguing the man had intent to kill the people on the train, it's negligence that caused it.

Much in the same way negligence was a main contributor to Nichol's escape.

[MannyIsGod]

why don't you just stick to the situation at hand... nichols killed and raped... he deserves nothing but death...

Actually, if you want to get technical about things, he hasn't been convicted on anything. Not rape, not murder.

[MannyIsGod]

manny will say anything in order to take the blame off the KILLER!

No Clan, the ultimate blame lies with Nichols, but there are many factors here. I understand you live in a black and white world, but the world is more complicated than that.

[Clandestino]

Actually, if you want to get technical about things, he hasn't been convicted on anything. Not rape, not murder.

because he killed the judge..

[MannyIsGod]

In his 2nd trial, which was declared a mistrial like the 1st.

I don't know the evidence of the specifics in the case, but I know for damn sure that you haven't looked into it.

In the end it doesn't matter, whatever he gets for the murder charges is going to trump any rape conviction.

[bigzak25]

not all killers are murderers. this is not news.

that attention wanting lil bitch that parked his truck on the tracks and walked away needs to pay the price too...involunatry manslaughter, however many counts of it...if they want to put him in a hospital for the rest of his life, so be it.


nicholls, however, is a cold blooded murderer, and i guess rapist from what i've read here, and he needs to pay the price too. this time he has is a blessing. if he is at a point that he is coming to know Jesus before his death, that is the lord giving him another chance at salvation. he's gonna have years on death row, so he'll have his time.







Is a violent society one that places a low value on life?


Is a society that places low value on life a violent one?

YES.

which is why we have to rid ourselves of the most horrificly violent violators of society.

nickles put low values on multiple lives, including his own, and thus acted in the most violent ways imaginable...rape and murder.

we are a society that places low value of life for only the most violent of criminals.

[desflood]

The thinking is getting to Clandestino, he's finding it difficult.

Anyhow, another question:

Is a violent society one that places a low value on life?
Probably, but isn't it possible that a non-violent society could place a low value on life also?

[Clandestino]

some good news...

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Former hostage Ashley Smith, who helped police peacefully capture suspected Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, will receive a $10,000 reward from the state of Georgia, Gov. Sonny Perdue has announced.

[MannyIsGod]

Probably, but isn't it possible that a non-violent society could place a low value on life also?

Absolutely.

Zak, I think he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter as well, and 13 counts of it(the train man). However, I don't know a place in this country that will get you the Death Penalty, and they charged him with murder, not MS.

[Useruser666]

So him leaving his truck on the tracks is no longer negligence? Well, if you want to believe that, feel free, but I guarntee you in the courtroom everything in that case is going to center around the world negligence.

He didn't intend to kill anyone but himself, yet his actions were negligent.

Don't take my word for it, search for some quotes form the prosecuters and I guarntee you that word has come up a lot.

So unless you are arguing the man had intent to kill the people on the train, it's negligence that caused it.

Much in the same way negligence was a main contributor to Nichol's escape.

I don't think he did intend to kill the people on the train. But he PURPOSELY parked his truck there. He KNEW the train would hit it. It's like driving the wrong way on the freeway to kill yourself. You don't know that if you hit someone they will die, but there is a chance for that to happen. That is a huge difference from what happened in the courthouse. The court is responsible for having lax security, not for taking a gun and shooting 3 people.

[MannyIsGod]

Chris,

They PURPOSELY had Nichols escorted by a smaller woman. They PURPOSELY had the gun in a lock box that she had the key to.

Or were those accidents?

They didn't know that Nichols was going to escape, but there was a chance right?

[bigzak25]

and they charged him with murder, not MS.



that's very suprising to me. maybe they wanted to aim high and settle for manslaughter?

[Useruser666]

Chris,

They PURPOSELY had Nichols escorted by a smaller woman. They PURPOSELY had the gun in a lock box that she had the key to.

Or were those accidents?

They didn't know that Nichols was going to escape, but there was a chance right?

Those are ridiculous comparrissions. The guy put his truck on the tracks to get hit by the train. The courthouse didn't have the woman guard him, or put the gun in the box so he would escape and kill those people.

You're acting like the engineer on the train saw the truck and sped up or something. Enabling someone to do something, and you causing the effects all on your own are two different things.

[MannyIsGod]

Why? It wasn't murder in any way shape or form, yet they were also looking into the death penalty.

I don't know whats happend recnetly, I haven't looked into it.

[Useruser666]

Why? It wasn't murder in any way shape or form, yet they were also looking into the death penalty.

I don't know whats happend recnetly, I haven't looked into it.

I don't care about the train incident. You are trying to argue the Nichols case by comparing it to something that happened under different circumstances.

I think they will press for murder, and he will probably get MS. I hope that at the very least he is put away for a very long time.

[MannyIsGod]

Those are ridiculous comparrissions. The guy put his truck on the tracks to get hit by the train. The courthouse didn't have the woman guard him, or put the gun in the box so he would escape and kill those people.


See, now you're bringing intent into it, which doesn't factor into negligence.


You're acting like the engineer on the train saw the truck and sped up or something. Enabling someone to do something, and you causing the effects all on your own are two different things.

Chris, they are diffrent events with different circumstances, but they both involved negligence.

But I guess arguing that people selectivly apply their thoughts on accountability with someone who is doing that very thing prooves my point enough for me to drop it.

[Useruser666]

See, now you're bringing intent into it, which doesn't factor into negligence.


Chris, they are diffrent events with different circumstances, but they both involved negligence.

But I guess arguing that people selectivly apply their thoughts on accountability with someone who is doing that very thing prooves my point enough for me to drop it.

Intent has lot to do with determining what type of crime it was. Intent changes weather it is 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, or 3rd degree murder. It also proves that the person wanted to kill the people or if there deaths were an effect of their actions.

[MannyIsGod]

But not in the case of negligence Chris. Legal negligence is a present regardless of intent.

If there was intent to commit a crime, then it would be above negligence.

[Useruser666]

If you intend to kill someone how are you negligent?

[MannyIsGod]

As I said, if there was intent to commit a specific crime, it would be above negligence.

[Useruser666]

As I said, if there was intent to commit a specific crime, it would be above negligence.

How is "above" not the same as saying there isn't negligence involved. Nichols is not negligent for the deaths of those people, the courthouse is. The man who parked the truck on the tracks is negligent for the deaths of those on the train.

[MannyIsGod]

The train incident is negligence on the part of the driver. He never intended to hurt anyone but himself, so there was no intent, but the accident was still caused by him.

The absence of intent means that he was criminaly negligent. Had there been intent, it would have been a different thing.

The Nichols situation shows negligence on the part of the authorities. They never intended what happend to happen, so there was no intent, but they share a huge portion of the responsibility for what happened.

Once again, there is an absence of intent. I don't know if they were criminaly negligent, and regardless I can't see them ever being held to that level of accountability. However, if I'm the family of the federal agent that was killed I certainly am consulting with lawyers over a possible lawsuit against the county.

The initial point I was making, was that people don't have a standard level of accountability. In the trian incident, people were saying he should have known what could have happend, and that his mental state wasn't an excuse. Well, why aren't those same people applying that same standard of accountability torwards the authorities in Atlanta? They should have known what could have happend if an inmate got a hold of a weapon, and they didn't take very smart measures to stop that from happening. Even when warned about it. This didn't come out of the blue.

[NeoConIV]

Political Correctness Kills Three, wounds others (http://sixmeatbuffet.com/archives/2005/03/11/political-correctness-kills-3-wounds-others/#more-682)

Off topic, on topic rant. Good stuff.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree. She was just too damn small. I'd say the same if it was a man that small. However, pinning it off on the ACLU is ridiculous. The ACLU would not have fought a decision based on size.

[Useruser666]

The train incident is negligence on the part of the driver. He never intended to hurt anyone but himself, so there was no intent, but the accident was still caused by him.

The absence of intent means that he was criminaly negligent. Had there been intent, it would have been a different thing.

The Nichols situation shows negligence on the part of the authorities. They never intended what happend to happen, so there was no intent, but they share a huge portion of the responsibility for what happened.

Once again, there is an absence of intent. I don't know if they were criminaly negligent, and regardless I can't see them ever being held to that level of accountability. However, if I'm the family of the federal agent that was killed I certainly am consulting with lawyers over a possible lawsuit against the county.

The initial point I was making, was that people don't have a standard level of accountability. In the trian incident, people were saying he should have known what could have happend, and that his mental state wasn't an excuse. Well, why aren't those same people applying that same standard of accountability torwards the authorities in Atlanta? They should have known what could have happend if an inmate got a hold of a weapon, and they didn't take very smart measures to stop that from happening. Even when warned about it. This didn't come out of the blue.


Finally, from that last post I can see we're basically saying the same thing. I do believe the county is at fault for what happened. I wonder though if the female guard that was overcome was doing things according to procedure. There was several comments from unamed officials that seemed to point to her not following prisoner handling directives. I do believe that directive one should be that there is more than one guard with a prisoner at all times.

I don't think the guy that parked his truck on the tracks should get death. I do believe he should be put behind bars or placed in a mental institution for many years.