"If we cannot put solar power plants in the Mojave desert...

[RandomGuy]

On a somewhat topical, somewhat off topic note, anyone have any thoughts/knowledge about solar attic fans? Casa de CG recently has recently undergone a free energy audit and one of the recommendations was to install solar attic fans to help cool off the attic, thus reducing AC costs.

Being a fan (pun intended) of lowered electric bills, I'm interested, provided the things are actually going to work like the person trying to sell them to me is telling me they will. The inspector (a.k.a. the salesman) told me that the fans could (operative word being "could") reduce my summertime electric bills up to 20%. Anyone have an idea how realistic that number is?

My Dad has something like this in MO.

It is a fan system that can suck all the air in the house up and out within a few minutes. Useful a bit farther north after the sun goes down.

Not useful in Texas in the summer tho'. You will probably get a different system that just vents the attic air only.

You are not the only person to ask about this.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/502725/do-attic-fans-work
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080716175251AAd8OIz
http://www.diychatroom.com/f97/solar-attic-fan-does-work-51727/
http://www.ecodirect.com/solar-powered-attic-fan-how-they-work-s/223.htm

Best bit:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/energy-efficient/1275656

THe Yahoo answers had some good practical tips from a guy who say he is a general contractor.

Overall the consensus is yes, venting the roof will save you some modest amount of energy.

I would point out that if you have really good insulation, the radiative heat from the attic won't affect the A/C bill as much, so your savings will be less.

Even so, the fan set up seems pretty darned inexpensive (based on the PM article, not sure what installation runs), so it seems like it wouldn't have to save much to pay for itself. Since it is PV powered, you aren't going to have to spend any electricity on it.

Given the low cost, it seems like something with little risk, and a lot of upside. It would be an interesting selling point when you go to sell the house when moving.

[coyotes_geek]

My Dad has something like this in MO.

It is a fan system that can suck all the air in the house up and out within a few minutes. Useful a bit farther north after the sun goes down.

Not useful in Texas in the summer tho'. You will probably get a different system that just vents the attic air only.

You are not the only person to ask about this.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/502725/do-attic-fans-work
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080716175251AAd8OIz
http://www.diychatroom.com/f97/solar-attic-fan-does-work-51727/
http://www.ecodirect.com/solar-powered-attic-fan-how-they-work-s/223.htm

Best bit:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/energy-efficient/1275656

THe Yahoo answers had some good practical tips from a guy who say he is a general contractor.

Overall the consensus is yes, venting the roof will save you some modest amount of energy.

I would point out that if you have really good insulation, the radiative heat from the attic won't affect the A/C bill as much, so your savings will be less.

Even so, the fan set up seems pretty darned inexpensive (based on the PM article, not sure what installation runs), so it seems like it wouldn't have to save much to pay for itself. Since it is PV powered, you aren't going to have to spend any electricity on it.

Given the low cost, it seems like something with little risk, and a lot of upside. It would be an interesting selling point when you go to sell the house when moving.


Good info. Thanks! :tu

I think it's going to be worth it. After the 30% tax credit I'd be looking at less than $1k for installation (2 fans). Even if I only get a 10% reduction in cooling costs across just the hottest 6 months I'm thinking I should still be close to break even within 4 or 5 years.

[Winehole23]

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/14/worlds-largest-solar-thermal-plant-storage-comes-online/

[boutons_deux]

Japanese Farmers Producing Crops and Solar Energy Simultaneously

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/graphics/Japanese_Farmers_Producing_Crops_and_Solar_Energy1 .jpg


http://www.i-sis.org.uk/graphics/Japanese_Farmers_Producing_Crops_and_Solar_Energy2 .jpg

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Japanese_Farmers_Producing_Crops_and_Solar_Energy. php

[boutons_deux]

My Dad has something like this in MO.

It is a fan system that can suck all the air in the house up and out within a few minutes. Useful a bit farther north after the sun goes down.

Not useful in Texas in the summer tho'. You will probably get a different system that just vents the attic air only.

You are not the only person to ask about this.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/502725/do-attic-fans-work
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080716175251AAd8OIz
http://www.diychatroom.com/f97/solar-attic-fan-does-work-51727/
http://www.ecodirect.com/solar-powered-attic-fan-how-they-work-s/223.htm

Best bit:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/energy-efficient/1275656

THe Yahoo answers had some good practical tips from a guy who say he is a general contractor.

Overall the consensus is yes, venting the roof will save you some modest amount of energy.

I would point out that if you have really good insulation, the radiative heat from the attic won't affect the A/C bill as much, so your savings will be less.

Even so, the fan set up seems pretty darned inexpensive (based on the PM article, not sure what installation runs), so it seems like it wouldn't have to save much to pay for itself. Since it is PV powered, you aren't going to have to spend any electricity on it.

Given the low cost, it seems like something with little risk, and a lot of upside. It would be an interesting selling point when you go to sell the house when moving.

I researched putting a fan in my attic, but so many sites said the airflow analysis was quite complicated, and sometimes fans are totally ineffective.

I opted for peak ventv for passive ventilation, and also reflective foil attached to the under side of my roof rafters. air comes in the soffits, up with the chimney effect/convection between the foil and the under side of the roof, then out the peak vent.

[Wild Cobra]

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/14/worlds-largest-solar-thermal-plant-storage-comes-online/

Any idea what the unsubsidized price per kill-watt-hour is?

[Winehole23]

nope. article says it's coming down.

[Wild Cobra]

nope. article says it's coming down.
well, from what I gleaned from various sources and their optimistic output, it would take over 21 years to recoup the $2 billion at $0.10 /kwh just going to the project cost, at a zero percentage loan rate. I see so many probable problems that reduce the electrical output. Keep in mind, this cost does not include wages, parts, etc.

I hope this is viable, but I'll bet all this goes sideways.

[boutons_deux]

WC: "I see so many probable problems"

of course you do :lol

Do you see "so many probable problems" with fracking or super-deep-sea oil drilling?

[The Reckoning]

Ahnold - "Give tha people their powaaaaaaa"

[Wild Cobra]

WC: "I see so many probable problems"

of course you do :lol

Do you see "so many probable problems" with fracking or super-deep-sea oil drilling?




What's your point? Yes, I see possible problems. However, when it comes from libtards like you, who chronically act like "the boy who cried wolf," I don't pay much attention. Besides, that is a business venture that may very well be shut down from the possible side effects. This project was funded with $1.4 billion in federal loan guarantees. It must not have any confident capital venturists if they are staying out of the game without a guaranteed profit.

Do you support our government guaranteeing rich capitalists a profit and no loss?

[boutons_deux]

"business venture that may very well be shut down from the possible side effects"

what side effects? making coal and nuclear less competitve?

for govt-guaranteed loans, when the corrupt financial casino delivers more profits to capitalists than infrastructure/industrial investments, then yes, some greasing the money skids by govt make a lot of sense, and nearly always pays off.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...

That went right over your head.

Try reading my point again.

[Wild Cobra]

"business venture that may very well be shut down from the possible side effects"

what side effects? making coal and nuclear less competitve?

for govt-guaranteed loans, when the corrupt financial casino delivers more profits to capitalists than infrastructure/industrial investments, then yes, some greasing the money skids by govt make a lot of sense, and nearly always pays off.



Like Solindra?

[CosmicCowboy]

Any idea what the unsubsidized price per kill-watt-hour is?

CPS is paying their solar farm operator 14 cents a KWH.

[DMX7]

The Terminator can't even pronounce "Mojave".

[boutons_deux]

LOL...

That went right over your head.

Try reading my point again.

Nothing went over my head, I bitched slapped you.

[Wild Cobra]

CPS is paying their solar farm operator 14 cents a KWH.

I simply cannot imagine that. It's ridiculous. What do they charge their customers? I forget exactly, but I pay about $0.10/KWH with all the taxes, fees, etc. included where I live.

[Wild Cobra]

Nothing went over my head, I bitched slapped you.

No, you missed by a several hundred kilometers, at least.

[TDMVPDPOY]

bump

even with the massive dump of chinese solar products onto the market to get grab whatever % , have u guys noticed chinese solar companies are going busts? hence even if you look at the local companies who sourced their solar panels from china are also going busts, theres a few down here that are going busts just not from competition, but from the supply chain...dodgy equipment will always be dodgy

[boutons_deux]

BigCarbon companies in AU fighting distributed and centralized solar viciously

The dark forces lined up against renewables in Australia (http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/the-dark-forces-lined-up-against-renewables-in-australia-20629)

The Australian renewables industry is under no illusion about the extent of the forces lined up against it following the election of a highly conservative Coalition government in Canberra.
The antipathy to renewables in large sections of the Coalition is deep set, as it is among some of the highly influential and ultra-conservative think tanks such as the Institute of Public Affairs, and various industry lobby groups.

But even battle-weary supporters of solar and wind energy – and those firmly in the middle of the road – were taken aback by an extraordinary tirade against renewable energy delivered in Sydney on Wednesday by Burchell Wilson, a senior economist at the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

ACCI is one of the most visible and influential lobby groups in Canberra, and its opposition to climate policy, carbon pricing, and renewables incentives, is well known. Still, no-one was quite ready for the “venomous rant” – as one observor described it – against the renewable energy target that Wilson delivered to the Eastern Australian Energy Outlook Conference.

Wilson’s approach was not atypical of the sort of rhetoric we have come used to hearing from conservative energy ministers – be they state of federal – and the incumbent utilities, who are threatened by the rise of renewables, and their cheerleaders in the conservative think tanks.

The trick for these people is to ignore the benefits of renewables – increased investment, more jobs, lowering emissions, delivering a faster transition to low carbon economy, solar delivering cheaper alternative to homes and businesses – and instead paint a doomsday scenario.

There was no mention of the massive influence of network costs, or the $1 billion in annual subsidies paid to support the delivery of fossil fuel generation to customers in WA and Queensland. Instead, the focus is on inflated “abatement costs” using out of date technology prices, warnings about rising energy costs, collapsing industries and economies, and all the things that only a “green ideologue” would think were good.

Then you throw in hyperbole – the renewable energy target was “crazy”, “an ugly baby”, and “bad policy” that could only be justified by an “ideological predilection towards renewable energy.”

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/the-dark-forces-lined-up-against-renewables-in-australia-20629

[Wild Cobra]

B-Shit...

I'll bet they don't want to be forced to distribute electricity that is more expensive...

[Winehole23]

Take 300,000 computer-controlled mirrors, each 7 feet high and 10 feet wide. Control them with computers to focus the Sun's light to the top of 459-foot towers, where water is turned into steam to power turbines. Bingo: you have the world's biggest solar power plant, the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System (http://ivanpahsolar.com/).


Long-mired by regulatory issues and legal tangles, the enormous solar plant–jointly owned by NRG Energy (http://www.nrgenergy.com/), BrightSource Energy (http://www.brightsourceenergy.com/) and Google–opened for business today.
From the official news release (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=121544&p=irol-newsArticleNRG&ID=1899656):

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is now operational and delivering solar electricity to California customers. At full capacity, the facility's trio of 450-foot high towers produces a gross total of 392 megawatts (MW) of solar power, enough electricity to provide 140,000 California homes with clean energy and avoid 400,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, equal to removing 72,000 vehicles off the road.

http://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-largest-solar-plant-started-creating-electr-1521998493?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_faceboo k&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[Wild Cobra]

http://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-largest-solar-plant-started-creating-electr-1521998493?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_faceboo k&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
I wonder what the preventative maintenance schedule is to keep those mirrors clean. How many man-hours/year...

[boutons_deux]

500-square-mile wind farm could save California $750 million annually

California law says that a third of the state’s energy must come from renewable sources by 2020. A proposed 500-square-mile, $8 billion wind farm developed by Anschutz Corp. in Wyoming could provide up to 3,000 megawatts of this power, or about three nuclear reactors’ worth.


A preliminary National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) report (http://wyia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/wyoming_wind_power_could_save_california_ratepayer s1.pdf) from late January found that wind power from the Cowboy state could save ratepayers in the Golden state a lot of gold — up to $750 million annually.

Greg Brinkman, an energy analysis engineer at NREL told the Casper Star-Tribune that the findings of their study are consistent with previous studies. Their research found that Wyoming wind projects have a cost-benefit ratio of 2.8 to 1 when compared to California solar, wind and geothermal. Wyoming wind is very strong and reliable, and the cost-effectiveness benefits from large economies of scale.

“When utilities planners see numbers of two or higher, this is relatively unusual, and indicates very positive economics, very positive incentives to make this investment,” he said (http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/wyoming-wind-power-could-save-california-ratepayers-m-energy-lab/article_60e0fff4-985a-56fb-9054-45897fbccbb1.html).

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/13/huge-wind-farm-save-ca-750b-energy-bills/

[pgardn]

Imo this is a giant step to solve energy problems.

Money well spent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/13/science/giant-laser-complex-makes-fusion-advance.html?ref=us&_r=0

[Winehole23]

I wonder what the preventative maintenance schedule is to keep those mirrors clean. How many man-hours/year...skepticism based on wild conjecture. classic Wild Cobra.

[Wild Cobra]

skepticism based on wild conjecture. classic Wild Cobra.
No, seriously.

Those mirrors will require periodic cleaning. It could possible be a full time job for dozens of people.

It looks by the design in the pictures, that the mirrors can fold up, for when the sandstorms come. hate to see all them scratched by sand...

It does appear to be a good design, but they will get dirty, and need cleaning.

[Winehole23]

and?

[boutons_deux]

I wonder what the preventative maintenance schedule is to keep those mirrors clean. How many man-hours/year...

As if system designers of solar systems in windy, dusty deserts hadn't thought of that problem.

google "automatic solar panel cleaning"

google "effect of dust on solar panel efficiency"

[pgardn]

B-Shit...

I'll bet they don't want to be forced to distribute electricity that is more expensive...

in the short term...

Do you have an idea of the long term costs of continuing to burn coal?
You probably never thought acid rain was a problem and were pissed when coal burning had to have scrubbers.
You need to visit Bejing.

[Wild Cobra]

As if system designers of solar systems in windy, dusty deserts hadn't thought of that problem.

google "automatic solar panel cleaning"

google "effect of dust on solar panel efficiency"
My God.

I never implied they never thought of such things. I just wonder how many people it will employ. I rather doubt they will use an automatic system that uses water, unless it's deionized, that dries so quickly in the desert, when most of the time, they just need dusted off. Dry methods are often the best method.

[Wild Cobra]

in the short term...

Do you have an idea of the long term costs of continuing to burn coal?
You probably never thought acid rain was a problem and were pissed when coal burning had to have scrubbers.
You need to visit Bejing.
You need to stop assuming shit. You are so often wrong when assuming things about me. It really makes you look... well... it really makes you look like a stupid ass.

[boutons_deux]

Controversial Ivanpah Solar Power Plant Sets Record, Settles Controversy

http://i1.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2014/02/Ivanpah-CSP-plant.jpg?resize=500%2C333


You’re going to be hearing a lot about this one: today, Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz is officially dedicating the Ivanpah Solar Energy Generating System. The massive new facility, now up and running at Ivanpah Dry Lake in California after a series of successful shakedown tests, has set a record as the world’s largest CSP (concentrating solar power) plant of its type.

While the success of the Ivanpah CSP plant gains the US a claim to fame in the hotly competitive global solar tech market, here at home the massive project has gained notoriety for the whopping $1.6 billion loan guarantee it received from the Department of Energy’s much maligned (at least, by the usual maligners) Loans Programs Office.

We’ve also been keeping a close eye on the 392 MW project because of its A-list array of developers including the company NRG (http://www.nrgenergy.com/) (known for its EV charging stations and freestanding solar canopies (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/24/nrg-energy-introduces-freestanding-solar-canopy/)), BrightSource Energy (http://www.brightsourceenergy.com/), and of course Google (http://www.google.com/about/company/), which put up a cool $168 million (http://planetsave.com/2011/04/14/google-invests-big-money-into-worlds-largest-solar-power-tower-in-ca/) to help build it, as well as the global engineering firm Bechtel (http://www.bechtel.com/ivanpah.html).

About That Ivanpah CSP Controversy…

Back in 2012 Representative Darrell Issa (R- CA), head of the House Oversight Committee, put the Ivanpah CSP plant on the hot seat (http://grist.org/politics/congressional-republicans-attack-another-job-creating-american-company/)over a flurry of emails between the company and the Energy Department, as part of an investigation of “preferred treatment” received by six alternative energy projects.

The Committee appeared to be anticipating a Solyndra-style financial collapse by some or all of those projects, including the Ivanpah CSP plant, but rumors of its death were premature, to say the least, and the investigation fizzled out.

For the record, financial risk is a feature, not a bug, of the DOE loan program (http://lpo.energy.gov/), which started under the Bush Administration in a push to cement public-private partnerships into the US civic structure. Overall, the program has been a stunning success (http://energy.gov/articles/moniz-tesla-repayment-shows-strength-energy-department-s-overall-loan-portfolio).

Congress had actually set aside a $10 billion loan loss reserve for the DOE loan program to cover anticipated losses, and as of last year those losses only came up to less than ten percent of that amount.

Ivanpah CSP Plant Powers Up

We’ve been following the Ivanpah project since shovels hit the ground in 2010, with completion expected late in 2013.

Sure enough, in March 2013 the passed its first “flux,” test (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/03/ivanpah-the-worlds-largest-solar-thermal-power-plant-passes-its-first-functional-test/), in which the plant’s thousands of heliostats (a fancy word for mirror), focused solar energy onto the boiler, bringing it just below the point of steam.

The next step was a shakedown of the plant’s steam pathways, and by September 2013 it was ready for a critical first “sync” test (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/24/ivanpah-solar-thermal-power-plant-passes-milestone/), which it also passed swimmingly (sync refers to synchronizing power output from the plant to the grid).

Earlier this month, various headlines suggested that the plant is now fully operational (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/06/ivanpah-online/), but to the best of our knowledge it is still engaged in what is obviously a longer process than simply flipping a switch.

Nevertheless, given the success of the project so far, DOE is on pretty secure footing by going ahead with today’s dedication ceremony.

It’s also a good opportunity for DOE to tout the success of the loan program, which

aside from the world’s largest CSP

also includes one of the world’s largest wind farms,

the first solar thermal storage project and

the first power tower with solar thermal storage in the US, and

some of the world’s largest parabolic trough CSP plants.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/13/controversial-ivanpah-csp-plant-powers-up-settles-controversy/#PlmH6hM3EWdorxyt.99

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Make shit up that will provide your desired outcome and then front like its someone elses burden to prove false.

Who am I describing?

[Winehole23]

no really, can you prove his (implicit, totally unsubstantiated) point wrong? where's your open mind, Fuzzy?

[Wild Cobra]

no really, can you prove his (implicit, totally unsubstantiated) point wrong? where's your open mind, Fuzzy?
Speaking of me?

Did I make a wrong point?

Is all this bullshit about my comment "I wonder what the preventative maintenance schedule is to keep those mirrors clean. How many man-hours/year... ?"

I think you guys are reading too much into a simple question, colored by your own prejudices you pretend not to have.

[pgardn]

You need to stop assuming shit. You are so often wrong when assuming things about me. It really makes you look... well... it really makes you look like a stupid ass.

Ok then, I apologize.

You are in on alternative sources. BTW, lots of maintenance on wind power. The blades build up a lot of static electricity attracting dust. But they look damn good humming away in the middle of the summer (air conditioning soars) around Sinton. Awesome sight for me. And getting less expensive with mass production.

[boutons_deux]

Ok then, I apologize.

You are in on alternative sources. BTW, lots of maintenance on wind power. The blades build up a lot of static electricity attracting dust. But they look damn good humming away in the middle of the summer (air conditioning soars) around Sinton. Awesome sight for me. And getting less expensive with mass production.

Next generation is going from the 80m height up to 120m+, where wind is both stronger (energy increases with cube of the wind speed) and more consistent, which also allows currently marginal sites to be productive.

http://www.intechopen.com/source/html/16242/media/image43.png

[boutons_deux]

btw, while not touching BigCarbon subsidies (doing as Congress is paid to do), Congress has let the Wind Production Tax Credit expire.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2014/02/09/loss-of-production-tax-credits-brings-big-wind-chill-to-cooling-subsidy-dependent-market/

[boutons_deux]

The World's Largest Solar Plant Started Creating Electricity Today

LOTS of pics

http://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-largest-solar-plant-started-creating-electr-1521998493

[boutons_deux]

The blades build up a lot of static electricity attracting dust.

looks like a good doc on the misfortunes of wind turbines, with pics of fires, lightening strikes, etc

http://www.windfarmaction.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/safety-of-wind-systems.pdf

Very impressive technology. I wonder if any design or technological breakthroughs lie ahead.

They only use 3 blades because 3 occupy all of the attachment area at the hub.

I wonder if anybody has considered much larger hub diameter to allow more blades, which provides for more energy capture.

I figure somebody will come up with some kind of Gorilla glass/nano-tech for the blade surface so it repels dust, pollution, ice.

Whatever the Wash Tub people put on my car's glass works great for shedding water, and has for many months now.

[Wild Cobra]

btw, while not touching BigCarbon subsidies (doing as Congress is paid to do), Congress has let the Wind Production Tax Credit expire.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2014/02/09/loss-of-production-tax-credits-brings-big-wind-chill-to-cooling-subsidy-dependent-market/
Good.

There are now enough built for investors to see an actual outcome. If such ventures are not attractive to investors, then they shouldn't be built.

[Wild Cobra]

Ok then, I apologize.

You are in on alternative sources. BTW, lots of maintenance on wind power. The blades build up a lot of static electricity attracting dust. But they look damn good humming away in the middle of the summer (air conditioning soars) around Sinton. Awesome sight for me. And getting less expensive with mass production.
I am fine with alternate methods, but I am against subsidies for them. I firmly believe that investors will naturally move to alternate means of generating power on their own. One problem is that now, they need to have the training wheels off. Because of all the subsidies, tax breaks, etc. they now have the power to tell congress they need help, and the liberal feel good and agenda driven authoritarians are fine with given them our money unnecessarily.

[boutons_deux]

Good.

There are now enough built for investors to see an actual outcome. If such ventures are not attractive to investors, then they shouldn't be built.

Congress blocks the WPTC, but refuses to cut the annual $Bs of tax expenditures to the most profitable industry of BigCarbon.

[Wild Cobra]

Congress blocks the WPTC, but refuses to cut the annual $Bs of tax expenditures to the most profitable industry of BigCarbon.
Two wrongs don't make a right in my world.

Do they in yours?

[boutons_deux]

The Ivanpah Solar Power Plant Uses Relatively Little Water

“Ivanpah is utilizing dry-cooling technology that dramatically reduces water usage,” Moniz said. “In fact, this entire facility will use roughly the same amount of water as two holes at the nearby golf course.”

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/15/ivanpah-solar-power-plant-uses-relatively-little-water/#JMeBGfMF0zVEP38o.99

[boutons_deux]

oops

"Those mirrors have actually been scorching birds that are just out for a nice little afternoon flight around the desert. As you probably guessed, that raised more than a little controversy around the project"

http://www.dvice.com/2014-2-14/largest-solar-power-plant-earth-opens-scorches-birds

Nobody bitches about the 100Ms of birds killed by domestic and feral cats EVERY YEAR

[boutons_deux]

Another thermal CSP plant

Giant solar battery made of salt ready to charge up


http://i0.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2014/02/Crescent-Dunes.jpg?resize=500%2C333

It basically runs on salt but nevertheless Crescent Dunes, the new 110 megawatt solar power and energy storage facility near Tonopah, Nevada, is billed as the “most advanced solar plant in the world” on top of laying claim to being the largest facility of its kind in the world. Now that construction is complete, the commissioning phase is under way so this is a good time to catch up and see what all the excitement is about.

We’re particularly interested in this project because we helped finance it and so did you, if you pay federal income tax. We’re not talking Kickstarter or Indiegogo either. In 2011 we taxpayers backed a $737 million Department of Energy loan (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/04/crescent-dunes-solar-thermal-plant-passes-another-milestone/) to SolarReserve (http://www.solarreserve.com/what-we-do/csp-projects/crescent-dunes/), the project developer.

That puts you and me in the same league as other project investors, the global engineering firm ACS Cobra (http://www.grupocobra.com/) and the financial services giant Santander (http://www.santander.com/), which was named “Sustainable Global Bank of the Year” last year. Not bad, right?


The Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

In terms of efficiency, Crescent Dunes represents a step up from the demo plants. More than ten thousand ground-mounted mirrors called heliostats collect solar energy and focus it on a central tower, where molten salt is circulated. The heated salt goes down to power a steam turbine, which generates the electricity.

https://plus.google.com/102291313118764969093/posts// ]]>

The molten salt also serves as a “salt battery,” storing energy in the form of heat. When the heliostats are not contributing fresh solar energy, retained heat in the molten salt will continue to produce enough steam to generate electricity for about six hours.

With construction complete, the initial shakedown phase currently under way includes energizing the grid connection and other electrical systems. The heliostats are also undergoing the first stages of calibration for maximum efficiency.

The next steps include a number of stages that are common among conventional power plants, including revving up pathways for water, air, steam, and cooling.
SolarReserve points out, though, that among other differences the dry cooled condenser sported by Crescent Dunes will result in far less water consumption than conventional steam power plants.

The plant is expected to get up to speed later this year and when it does, the utility NV Energy already has dibs on 100 percent of its 500,000 MWh per year, which is enough electricity for 75,000 homes during peak periods.

US Solar Industry Races Ahead While Fossil Fuel Infrastructure Crumbles

Not for nothing, but while we’re on the subject of record-breaking solar power plants supported by us taxpayers, just yesterday the Energy Department held a dedication ceremony for another showpiece for US solar tech leadership, the Ivanpah concentrating solar power plant (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/13/controversial-ivanpah-csp-plant-powers-up-settles-controversy/) in California.

Facilities like Crescent Dunes and Ivanpah are not impact free, of course, especially when it comes to the construction supply chain.

However, there is no disputing the fact that once they are up and running, solar facilities do not require the kind of destructive energy harvesting operations required of fossil fuel power plants, and they do not produce the emissions that result from burning fossil fuels.

A recent series of events involving the fossil fuel infrastructure also underscores another indisputable fact, which is that infrastructure crumbles.

There are always going to be infrastructure episodes even under a best case scenario, where ample public and private resources are dedicated to efficient monitoring, troubleshooting, maintainence, and repair.

There is increasing evidence, though, that the US fossil fuel infrastructure has not been attended to, and it’s not getting any younger. Examples from the past few weeks include the Elk River coal washing chemical spill, the Dan River coal ash spill, the Kanawha River coal slurry spill, and a huge gas explosion (http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/kentucky-news/gas-line-explodes-in-adair-county/24452386) in a Louisiana-to-New-York gas line that put an entire rural Kentucky county in a state of emergency (fortunately with no lives lost — imagine if that had happened in a more populated area…).

Speaking of gas, hop on over to the Journal of Science (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/733.summary) and take a look at some research on what’s been leaking out from our aging natural gas infrastructure (h/t: grist.org).

As for oil pipelines, cleanup is still continuing with no end in sight from the 2010 Kalamazoo River oil spill (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/26/new-beer-lawsuit-could-spell-trouble-for-keystone-xl-pipeline/) (the largest ever inland oil spill in the US), and last we heard oil is still being found in a 12-acre cove after last year’s Lake Conway oil spill. (http://planetsave.com/2013/03/31/oil-running-down-the-road-oil-pipeline-spill-in-mayflower-arkansas/)

And don’t even get us started on fossil fuel disasters related to rail transport.

The point is, when you take infrastructure risks into account, it’s all the more clear that the US cannot sustain a fossil fuel economy for much longer.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/14/giant-solar-battery-made-of-salt-ready-to-charge-up/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

Where the hell are they going to get all that scarce salt? :)

[Wild Cobra]

oops

"Those mirrors have actually been scorching birds that are just out for a nice little afternoon flight around the desert. As you probably guessed, that raised more than a little controversy around the project"

http://www.dvice.com/2014-2-14/largest-solar-power-plant-earth-opens-scorches-birds

Nobody bitches about the 100Ms of birds killed by domestic and feral cats EVERY YEAR

I wonder how the mirrors do at surviving a direct hit by a bird as it falls from the sky?

[boutons_deux]

I wonder how the mirrors do at surviving a direct hit by a bird as it falls from the sky?

even if a mirror was cracked, there's a lot redundancy in 1000s of mirrors. I suppose engineers have chosen glass strong enough to resist common hits

[Winehole23]

But for all its scale and beauty, in terms of the future of renewables, Ivanpah is already irrelevant.

Solar thermal creates electricity by using mirrors to direct intense amounts of heat at a centralized collector, which is used to heat a substance like water to create steam power. Solar photovoltaic, meanwhile, directly converts solar energy into electricity through semiconductors.


If solar thermal sounds unnecessarily complicated, you're right. Solar photovoltaic has seen explosive growth in the past few years thanks to plummeting material costs, state incentives, and eco-conscious homebuyers putting up panels on their roofs. But solar thermal growth has stalled, and is expected to continue to do so. (http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/tablebrowser/#release=AEO2014ER&subject=6-AEO2014ER&table=16-AEO2014ER&region=0-0&cases=ref2014er-d102413a) Ivanpah cost $2.2 billion. Warren Buffett paid the same amount for the world's largest photovoltaic plant just up the road outside Bakersfield (http://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-midamerican-solar-project-2013-1). That plant will generate 1.5-times as much power as Ivanpah.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ivanpah-solar-plant-already-irrelevant-2014-2#ixzz2ttRWvOZM

[boutons_deux]

Two solar projects approved on public lands in California and Nevada








http://touch.latimes.com/#section/1780/article/p2p-79368653/

[Winehole23]

“The whole world of electricity storage has been using metal ions in various charge states but there is a limited number that you can put into solution and use to store energy, and none of them can economically store massive amounts of renewable energy,” Gordon said. “With organic molecules, we introduce a vast new set of possibilities. Some of them will be terrible and some will be really good. With these quinones we have the first ones that look really good.”http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2014/01/organic-mega-flow-battery-promises-breakthrough-for-renewable-energy

[boutons_deux]

MIT’s Liquid Metal Stores Solar Power Until After Sundown

A 40-foot trailer loaded with 25 tons of liquid metals may be the solution to the renewable-energy industry’s biggest challenge: making sure electricity is available whenever it’s needed.

A Boston-area startup founded by MIT researchers is working to turn this new concept into a commercially viable product, liquid-metal batteries that will store power for less than $500 a kilowatt-hour.

That’s less than a third the cost of some current battery technologies.

The technology promises an alternative to the massive pumped-water systems that make up 95 percent of U.S. energy-storage capacity. At that price, developers will be able to build wind and solar projects that can deliver power to the grid anytime, making renewable energy as reliable as natural gas and coal without the greenhouse-gas emissions.

“If we can get liquid-metal batteries down to $500 a kilowatt-hour, we’ll change the world,” Donald Sadoway (http://sadoway.mit.edu/), chief scientific adviser at Cambridge, Massachusetts-based Ambri Inc. (http://www.ambri.com/), said in an interview.
Power storage will compensate for the intermittent nature of renewable energy. Batteries can store energy when the wind blows at night, and then send electricity to the grid the next day when it’s needed.

First Prototypes

Ambri won a $250,000 grant (http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/03052014-ny-best-companies) Feb. 5 from New York state to develop and test a prototype battery with Con Edison Inc. The company, backed by investors including billionaires Bill Gates and Vinod Khosla, plans to install its first two prototypes by early 2015 at a Massachusetts military base and a wind farm in Hawaii (http://topics.bloomberg.com/hawaii/). It opened its first manufacturing facility in November and is planning a larger one next year.

Ambri is the first company to pursue liquid-metal storage and the technology has the potential to reshape the battery industry, said Brian Warshay, an energy smart technologies analyst at Bloomberg New Energy Finance in New York.

“There’s nothing out there quite like it,” Warshay said. “If they can get under $500 a kilowatt-hour, that would be a really good price point.”

Sadoway, who is also the John F. Elliott professor of materials chemistry at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, wouldn’t say what goes into liquid-metal batteries. They use materials that are “abundant” and easy to harvest from the earth, which is key to making them cost effective.

‘Dirt Cheap’

“To make it dirt-cheap you have to make it out of dirt,” he said. Earlier versions used molten magnesium and antimony, separated by a layer of salt, to store and release electricity. Those materials only worked at temperatures that were too high to sustain and didn’t produce enough voltage. Sadoway and his team tested more than 1,000 cells with dozens of alloys and salts to find one that’s commercially viable.

They will compete against lithium-ion batteries, the same technology used in laptop computers and electric cars, which are becoming more common for grid-storage. AES Corp., the largest operator of power-storage systems, said yesterday it’s now selling them to utilities and renewable-energy developers, for about $1,000 a kilowatt.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-06/mit-s-liquid-metal-stores-solar-power-until-after-sundown.html

[RandomGuy]

http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2014/01/organic-mega-flow-battery-promises-breakthrough-for-renewable-energy


spuru-Guzik noted that the project is very well aligned with the White House Materials Genome Initiative. “This project illustrates what the synergy of high-throughput quantum chemistry and experimental insight can do,” he said. “In a very quick time period, our team honed in to the right molecule. Computational screening, together with experimentation, can lead to discovery of new materials in many application domains.”
Quinones are abundant in crude oil as well as in green plants. The molecule that the Harvard team used in its first quinone-based flow battery is almost identical to one found in rhubarb. The quinones are dissolved in water, which prevents them from catching fire.

Nifty.

Billions of years of evolution are bound to have hit on a few optimal solutions for various problems, and a few decades of advances in computing power has helped comb through those for our purposes.

Mmmm singularity anyone?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nifty.

Billions of years of evolution are bound to have hit on a few optimal solutions for various problems, and a few decades of advances in computing power has helped comb through those for our purposes.

Mmmm singularity anyone?

I will pass on ideology and wholistic fatalism regarding scientific principles and theory. You like to romanticize science.

[boutons_deux]

Nifty.

Billions of years of evolution are bound to have hit on a few optimal solutions for various problems, and a few decades of advances in computing power has helped comb through those for our purposes.

Mmmm singularity anyone?

many (taxpayer) $100Ms going into research of "artificial photosynthesis", eg

Artificial Photosynthesis for Splitting Water Reaches One-Volt Milestone

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/green-tech/fuel-cells/artificial-photosynthesis-for-splitting-water-reaches-onevolt-milestone

Large scale, distributed artificial photosynthesis could produce hydrogen for (automotive) fuel cells without the need for an extensive, nation-spanning hydrogen distribution network, like we now have for oil, eg XL.

[CosmicCowboy]

In an almost nationwide water shortage does it really make sense to produce energy from fresh water?

[Wild Cobra]

In an almost nationwide water shortage does it really make sense to produce energy from fresh water?

Or grow fuel...

[RandomGuy]

I will pass on ideology and wholistic fatalism regarding scientific principles and theory. You like to romanticize science.

Guilty as charged. I am curious and enthusiastic about learning new stuff. :D

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Guilty as charged. I am curious and enthusiastic about learning new stuff. :D

Curious is an interesting word choice.

[boutons_deux]

In an almost nationwide water shortage does it really make sense to produce energy from fresh water?

your BigCarbon fracking buddies are destroying 30% of TX water, and NOW your worried about fresh water for the rest of us?

[Winehole23]

impact on biomass, soil moisture and water efficiency:


Areas under PV solar panels maintained higher soil moisture throughout the period of observation. A significant increase in late season biomass was also observed for areas under the PV panels (90% more biomass), and areas under PV panels were significantly more water efficient (328% more efficient).https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0203256

[Winehole23]

commercial incentives provided by the State of Texas:


Commercial solar projects, which include operations such as businesses, non-profits, government buildings and schools, will be eligible for the full 30% Solar Investment Tax Credit if the projects are under construction by December 2019. The credit falls to 26% for projects starting construction in 2020 and 22% for projects starting construction in 2021.https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2018/11/sunfinity-renewable-energy-installed-solar-project-in-north-texas/

[Winehole23]

zero marginal cost generation lowered prices:


Rhodes’ modeling found that found that wind and solar have reduced wholesale power prices by an average of between $1 and $2.50 per megawatt-hour each year from 2010 through 2017, resulting in prices that were between 2.8% and 8.2% lower than they would have been without these resources.
https://l0dl1j3lc42iebd82042pgl2-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/11/Screen-Shot-2018-11-05-at-4.04.03-PM.png
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2018/11/06/renewables-reduced-wholesale-power-costs-by-5-7-billion-in-texas/

[Winehole23]

Over the course of these eight years, Rhodes estimates that reduced wholesale power prices by $5.7 billion – or about $700 million annually, or ~$25 for every resident of Texas each year. He also found that the effect is greater during years when gas prices are higher, and that as such wind and solar are not only making wholesale power cheaper, but also dampening price volatility.

[RandomGuy]

zero marginal cost generation lowered prices:

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2018/11/06/renewables-reduced-wholesale-power-costs-by-5-7-billion-in-texas/


This is just the beginning. Texas continues to add more wind every year, and ERCOT has estimated that the state could put online 13 GW of solar by 2030. This will ultimately mean more hours where coal and gas plants are not operating, and more retirements of conventional generation.

Meaning less demand for coal, and for natgas, which means we can sell into global markets cheaply. the LNG terminals that we and the Europeans are building will start pressing Russian dominance, something Russia seems ill prepared to deal with.