Some thoughts on the Spurs of late.

[MaNu4Tres]

There are many of you Drew Gooden skeptics out there and I don't understand it. Some of you don't want Gooden on the floor because he looks lost out there supposedly so y'all cry about it ( which I think is an exaggeration).

At the same time of you all bitching about his defense. We have Finley and Mason starting who are easily our worst perimeter defenders. ( Mason being the worst). So again let me get this straight why are y'all so hard on gooden's defense (even though its not even bad as some of y'all claim) but not so hard on Finley and Mason? It can't be because of offense because I personally think Gooden can create higher percentage of field goals for himself than I think Mason and Finley can. Which is beneficial for a stale offense late in the shot clock.

On another hand we have Bonner starting. Bonner reminds me a lot of Ferry back in the day. And back in 2002 I wouldn't agree with Ferry playing the center position would u? So why now? Bonner is easily our worst post defender physically. Don't get me wrong there's moments where his positioning is great and he has good discipline keeping his hands up, but so does Gooden at times in his limited minutes. Even though he does pick up undisciplined fouls. All in all I think playing Gooden and Kurt more minutes at the 5 and 4 would be the best thing for this team. With Bonner getting limited minutes according to matchups.

Another question I have is concerning our starting lineup and rotation. I don't understand Pop sticking with this starting unit when we have been anything but consistent. This is probably the worst the Spurs have played in late March in years. Yet Pop refuses to try to change it up. When in the past he's tweaked it here and there to find that consistency.

My thoughts on the rotation:

Starters
Gooden or Kurt/Tim/ Bruce/Mason/ Tony starting.

Bench
Manu/ Finley/Gooden or Kurt/Hill/ Bonner

with Udoka/Oberto only used in emergency purposes only.



Oh yeah does anyone know why Pop chooses to play Udoka over Bowen when udoka is having his worst year in his career? And don't tell me its offense because Udoka's numbers are worse than Bowen's.

Thoughts?

[celldweller]

Were happy with whatever is winning! Spurs fan's emotions change game to game.

I would like to see:

Gooden / Bonner
Duncan / Thomas
Parker / Hill
Mason / Ginobili
Bowen / Finley

with Udoka/Oberto only used in emergency purposes only.

[Yuixafun]

Pop's stonecutter mantra.

Just because something doesn't show immediete dividends doesn't mean it's not having an impact or won't pay off in the long run.

It took 2 seasons to grow Bonners confidence like it has.. unless he fails to give effort or does something eggregiously wrong I reckon Pop sticks with him.

[Duncan2177]

Pop needs to get his head out of his ass.

[Bukefal]

Pop knows what he is doing, look at his accomplishments over the years. how can you raise doubts about him and his coaching skills. As for gooden, I see it very positive, he is a good player and want to see him play most as is possible. Of course, he is still new, you cant expect him to adjust to a new team overnight. Other spurs players have played years with eachother. He just needs to get used and adjust.

[ElNono]

There are many of you Drew Gooden skeptics out there and I don't understand it. Some of you don't want Gooden on the floor because he looks lost out there supposedly so y'all cry about it ( which I think is an exaggeration).

At the same time of you all bitching about his defense. We have Finley and Mason starting who are easily our worst perimeter defenders. ( Mason being the worst). So again let me get this straight why are y'all so hard on gooden's defense (even though its not even bad as some of y'all claim) but not so hard on Finley and Mason? It can't be because of offense because I personally think Gooden can create higher percentage of field goals for himself than I think Mason and Finley can. Which is beneficial for a stale offense late in the shot clock.

Thoughts?

Because perimeter defense < paint defense. Our defensive scheme is based on making perimeter players drive baseline and funnel them to our anchor in the paint. If they don't want to drive, then we'll gladly take a contested jump shot from them. This is the basic core concept. At the end of the day, the defensive scheme is specifically engineered to prevent points in the paint (which are considered 'easy points' or high percentage shots).
There's obviously variations to it. When we double, we need to rotate and help, and when the pass out of the double comes, we need to recover. It takes time to learn all this stuff, like how do you rotate, who do you rotate to, and how do you recover. The system completely relies on the help coming, and if you have a missing piece in that puzzle, the whole thing breaks down.

Now, I will tell you that Bonner is actually a weak ass gear in the machine. But at least he knows how to rotate and help. Gooden will get there. I don't know if this season or not, but eventually he will. He also can still be useful when we're defending one on one, and we don't double.

Plus I'm sure that if Pop sees more good than bad in him, he'll just play him. There's really no reason not to.

[Spuritguy]

Were happy with whatever is winning! Spurs fan's emotions change game to game.

I would like to see:

Gooden / Bonner
Duncan / Thomas
Parker / Hill
Mason / Ginobili
Bowen / Finley

with Udoka/Oberto only used in emergency purposes only.
Manu is probably the 3rd or 4th best all-around player in the world, and yet he comes off the bench. That is ridiculous and I don't care if the Spurs need a spark off the bench. That need would have been met a long time ago if Pop could find young bench talent like the Lakers and the Celtics have done. The Spurs were much more consistent and exciting in 2003 and 2005 when Manu was a starter.

[MaNu4Tres]

Manu is probably the 3rd or 4th best all-around player in the world, and yet he comes off the bench. That is ridiculous and I don't care if the Spurs need a spark off the bench. That need would have been met a long time ago if Pop could find young bench talent like the Lakers and the Celtics. The Spurs were much more consistent in 2003 and 2005 when Manu was a starter.

Manu didn't start in 03.

[MaNu4Tres]

Because perimeter defense < paint defense. Our defensive scheme is based on making perimeter players drive baseline and funnel them to our anchor in the paint. If they don't want to drive, then we'll gladly take a contested jump shot from them. This is the basic core concept. At the end of the day, the defensive scheme is specifically engineered to prevent points in the paint (which are considered 'easy points' or high percentage shots).


That was the core concept when Robinson was here and even Rasho his first year. Now with Bonner back there I think the defensive scheme is more about rotations than funneling.

And perimeter defense and paint defense have to both work together as one. I don't think ones more valuable than the other.

[Bender]

Manu is probably the 3rd or 4th best all-around player in the world, and yet he comes off the bench
he may come off the bench, but if he's healthy, he plays "Starter's Minutes..."

so what's the beef?

[Mavs<Spurs]

There are many of you Drew Gooden skeptics out there and I don't understand it. Some of you don't want Gooden on the floor because he looks lost out there supposedly so y'all cry about it ( which I think is an exaggeration).

At the same time of you all bitching about his defense. We have Finley and Mason starting who are easily our worst perimeter defenders. ( Mason being the worst). So again let me get this straight why are y'all so hard on gooden's defense (even though its not even bad as some of y'all claim) but not so hard on Finley and Mason? It can't be because of offense because I personally think Gooden can create higher percentage of field goals for himself than I think Mason and Finley can. Which is beneficial for a stale offense late in the shot clock.

On another hand we have Bonner starting. Bonner reminds me a lot of Ferry back in the day. And back in 2002 I wouldn't agree with Ferry playing the center position would u? So why now? Bonner is easily our worst post defender physically. Don't get me wrong there's moments where his positioning is great and he has good discipline keeping his hands up, but so does Gooden at times in his limited minutes. Even though he does pick up undisciplined fouls. All in all I think playing Gooden and Kurt more minutes at the 5 and 4 would be the best thing for this team. With Bonner getting limited minutes according to matchups.

Another question I have is concerning our starting lineup and rotation. I don't understand Pop sticking with this starting unit when we have been anything but consistent. This is probably the worst the Spurs have played in late March in years. Yet Pop refuses to try to change it up. When in the past he's tweaked it here and there to find that consistency.

My thoughts on the rotation:

Starters
Gooden or Kurt/Tim/ Bruce/Mason/ Tony starting.

Bench
Manu/ Finley/Gooden or Kurt/Hill/ Bonner

with Udoka/Oberto only used in emergency purposes only.



Oh yeah does anyone know why Pop chooses to play Udoka over Bowen when udoka is having his worst year in his career? And don't tell me its offense because Udoka's numbers are worse than Bowen's.

Thoughts?


Good post. I agreed with your points. I think Hill should be our back up point guard.

I think Tim Duncan would be a better point guard than Roger Mason (a little snark here). Roger Mason should never play point guard, back up or otherwise. Ever.

Did I mention that I don't think that Roger Mason should be our back up point guard or ever play point guard for us?



:flag:

Go Spurs !!

[peskypesky]

I think all this talk about Gooden being bad defensively is a load of bollocks.

[Spuritguy]

Well Bender let's see if I can explain it to you. A bench player is not nearly as happy a camper as a starter, and therefore not as motivated. A bench player never gets into the same game rhythm as a starter and when he is playing with the starters he is not as effective because he doesn't usually play in the game with them until the fourth quarter. And finally a bench player, no matter how good he is, doesn't get the credit the starters do, and because of that Manu has gotten screwed out of being named to the All-Star team even though the fan vote gives him way more votes nationwide than Tony Parker. In fact the only guards that get more votes are Kobe and Wade. Let me put this another way, if Pop in his foolishness thinks one of his superstars should come off the bench, then why not let Parker or Duncan bring the juice off the bench? Ridiculous, uh, well the same is true for Ginobilli.

[DAF86]

There are many of you Drew Gooden skeptics out there and I don't understand it. Some of you don't want Gooden on the floor because he looks lost out there supposedly so y'all cry about it ( which I think is an exaggeration).

At the same time of you all bitching about his defense. We have Finley and Mason starting who are easily our worst perimeter defenders. ( Mason being the worst). So again let me get this straight why are y'all so hard on gooden's defense (even though its not even bad as some of y'all claim) but not so hard on Finley and Mason? It can't be because of offense because I personally think Gooden can create higher percentage of field goals for himself than I think Mason and Finley can. Which is beneficial for a stale offense late in the shot clock.

On another hand we have Bonner starting. Bonner reminds me a lot of Ferry back in the day. And back in 2002 I wouldn't agree with Ferry playing the center position would u? So why now? Bonner is easily our worst post defender physically. Don't get me wrong there's moments where his positioning is great and he has good discipline keeping his hands up, but so does Gooden at times in his limited minutes. Even though he does pick up undisciplined fouls. All in all I think playing Gooden and Kurt more minutes at the 5 and 4 would be the best thing for this team. With Bonner getting limited minutes according to matchups.

Another question I have is concerning our starting lineup and rotation. I don't understand Pop sticking with this starting unit when we have been anything but consistent. This is probably the worst the Spurs have played in late March in years. Yet Pop refuses to try to change it up. When in the past he's tweaked it here and there to find that consistency.

My thoughts on the rotation:

Starters
Gooden or Kurt/Tim/ Bruce/Mason/ Tony starting.

Bench
Manu/ Finley/Gooden or Kurt/Hill/ Bonner

with Udoka/Oberto only used in emergency purposes only.



Oh yeah does anyone know why Pop chooses to play Udoka over Bowen when udoka is having his worst year in his career? And don't tell me its offense because Udoka's numbers are worse than Bowen's.

Thoughts?

If you change Manu's and Mason's names in the line-up I would agree 100% with you.

[DAF86]

he may come off the bench, but if he's healthy, he plays "Starter's Minutes..."

so what's the beef?

That's not true, when Manu comes off the bench he usually plays less minutes ('cause he misses the first 6 minutes of each half) besides is easier to get in rythm when you start playing from the get go.

[LakerHater]

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/7.gif

[peskypesky]

Well Bender let's see if I can explain it to you. A bench player is not nearly as happy a camper as a starter, and therefore not as motivated. A bench player never gets into the same game rhythm as a starter and when he is playing with the starters he is not as effective because he doesn't usually play in the game with them until the fourth quarter. And finally a bench player, no matter how good he is, doesn't get the credit the starters do, and because of that Manu has gotten screwed out of being named to the All-Star team even though the fan vote gives him way more votes nationwide than Tony Parker. In fact the only guards that get more votes are Kobe and Wade. Let me put this another way, if Pop in his foolishness thinks one of his superstars should come off the bench, then why not let Parker or Duncan bring the juice off the bench? Ridiculous, uh, well the same is true for Ginobilli.

:toast

I agree. I'm not a fan of having Manu come off the bench. To me it seems obvious that you want your 5 best players on the floor to start the game and in crunch time. Pop has been trying to reinvent the wheel.

If this new-fangled idea of having one of your superstars on the bench is so brilliant, how come few if any other teams do it? In any sport?

[Spur|n|Austin]

People should quit questioning Pop, his history speaks for itself. It's quite obvious Pop is still tinkering with our lineups like he does every season, the only difference being injuries have set us back a little this season.. Come playoffs we'll be ready. GSG!!

[Bender]

Well Bender let's see if I can explain it to you. A bench player is not nearly as happy a camper as a starter, and therefore not as motivated.

well, I guess I have to disagree with anyone calling Manu "not motivated" because he comes off the bench... :rolleyes

there have been endless discussions in the past on ST about Manu coming off the bench vs starting. IIRC many posters here preferred him coming off the bench.

[itzsoweezee]

Because perimeter defense < paint defense. Our defensive scheme is based on making perimeter players drive baseline and funnel them to our anchor in the paint. If they don't want to drive, then we'll gladly take a contested jump shot from them. This is the basic core concept. At the end of the day, the defensive scheme is specifically engineered to prevent points in the paint (which are considered 'easy points' or high percentage shots).
There's obviously variations to it. When we double, we need to rotate and help, and when the pass out of the double comes, we need to recover. It takes time to learn all this stuff, like how do you rotate, who do you rotate to, and how do you recover. The system completely relies on the help coming, and if you have a missing piece in that puzzle, the whole thing breaks down.

Now, I will tell you that Bonner is actually a weak ass gear in the machine. But at least he knows how to rotate and help. Gooden will get there. I don't know if this season or not, but eventually he will. He also can still be useful when we're defending one on one, and we don't double.

Plus I'm sure that if Pop sees more good than bad in him, he'll just play him. There's really no reason not to.


excellent analysis. although, i think bonner is more than just a weak gear. he's a downright horrible one-on-one defender. opposing players salivate at the sight of matt trying to guard them. as a result, if bonner's not hitting threes, he's hurts the spurs by being on the floor.

secondly, the funnel players to the bigs is not going to work against the lakers. the spurs are going to need lock down defense against kobe, double-teaming kobe every time he gets the ball. i don't think mason is the player that can do that.

[Quiet Strength]

I dunno how people can hate on gooden. He looks real good on offense and defense. He just doesnt get enough minutes... and for whatever reason he doesn't play much with duncan on the court. Theres no way in hell bonner is playing better defense than him... bonners offense lately isnt that great either. As for Mason being backup pg... A mannequin would be better than him at pg. I think pop is experimenting too much with the lineup which is causing the spurs to struggle... and besides all that.. the spurs are taking way too many 3's. They gotta grow some balls and attack the rim.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm convinced that 1/4 of San Antone would drink the "special" kool-aid if Pop axed 'em to.

[crc21209]

If I had it my way the rotation going into the playoffs would be:

Starters:

PG- TP
SG- Mason
SF- Bowen
PF- TD
C- Kurt Thomas

This starting-lineup gives us a good mix of Offense and Defense in my opinion. You got TP who runs the show, Mason who can gun from 3, Bowen who can START the game on the other team's best scorer rather than let that guy get hot and then stick Bruce on him when its too late, TD who is a mix of good O and D, and Kurt Thomas who is a good defensive big-man who will rebound and hit the open jumper as well.

Coming off the bench you still have Gooden and Manu for Offense so the 2nd unit If I had it my way would look like this:

2nd Unit:

PG- Hill
SG- Manu
SF- Finley
PF- Gooden
C- Bonner/Oberto

I really don't see why Udoka has been getting so many minutes, other than the Houston game he hasnt been so great, so I wouldnt want him getting important mins for me in an important playoff game.

[rascal]

Y'all is not a word.

[Trimble87]

Manu is probably the 3rd or 4th best all-around player in the world, and yet he comes off the bench. That is ridiculous and I don't care if the Spurs need a spark off the bench. That need would have been met a long time ago if Pop could find young bench talent like the Lakers and the Celtics have done. The Spurs were much more consistent and exciting in 2003 and 2005 when Manu was a starter.

As previously stated- manu did not start in 03. And manu really exploded in 05 during the playoffs... when Pop moved him to the 6th man position.

IMO parker and manu dont play as well when they are on the court at the same time. As they are both at their best when driving the lane and probing the defense. Manu coming off the bench allows parker to have the ball in his hands when hes on the floor, and allows manu to be the playmaker when hes on the floor.

My lineups would be as follows:

Parker/Hill
Mason/Manu
Finley/Bowen
Duncan/Gooden
Bonner/Thomas

with Udoka coming in when finley/mason/bowen are playing badly.

[urunobili]

And manu really exploded in 05 during the playoffs... when Pop moved him to the 6th man position.

IIRC Manu played as a 6th man ONLY against the Nuggets in the first round after game's 1 loss... :wakeup

[gobo]

That's not true, when Manu comes off the bench he usually plays less minutes ('cause he misses the first 6 minutes of each half) besides is easier to get in rythm when you start playing from the get go.

I agree that Manu needs to start unless coming off bench is his choice. The coach needs to ask young players like Mason to give the spark needed off the bench.

[kace]

hell, who cares if manu is a starter or comes from the bench.

he will have his minutes and be there to end games.
he could come from the bench and still play 38 minutes if Pop wants him to. he plays the minutes Pop wants him to play, starter or not.

but the fact is that the spurs need to always have one of the big three on the court to keep the offense running. and it's easy to manage with manu coming from the bench.

[Spuritguy]

This is a response to Kace's post.
Best response is a simple question. Try to give an honest and well thought out answer, Kace, to this question: If you were a member of a football, baseball, basketball, or soccer team, and you were at the very least one of the five best players in that sport at your position, would you care if, in spite of your great skill and hard work, you are designated as a reserve player, playing behind people who are not nearly as skilled.
And because of that designation you are passed over for very valuable and prestigious awards in your sport. Are you kidding? Who cares? I would think that any player in that circumstance would care very much. Just because Manu is a character guy, and as such in not going to make a big stink, doesn't mean he does not care. No player who reaches the plateau Manu has reached got there without a very large ego and super expectations. And I as a fan who knows that when Manu is on the floor the Spurs play much smarter and with greater energy, and much more unselfishily. So who cares that Manu is not a starter? Answer: It should be you as fan who wants the best for the Spurs and also the dumb ass coach who is not being fair or smart with Manu!!!

[vander]

I would like to see:

Pop not change people's minutes based on fouls, so what if Bonner gets 3 fouls in the first quarter, he rarely gets minutes late in the game anyways, stick with the planned rotations

no more Mason at the point, more minutes for G Hill, as a Defensive Specialist more than as a PG; he can play with TP, or with Manu in which case either he or Manu could run point