Does this sound familiar?

[mogrovejo]

Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society's economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the "national interest"--that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

It's a definition of Fascism in the The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics (http://www.amazon.com/CONCISE-ENCYCLOPEDIA-ECONOMICS-DAVID-HENDERSON/dp/0865976651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238445318&sr=1-1).

[ChumpDumper]

You guys really need to decide once and for all whether you are going to call Obama a fascist or a socialist.

[Yonivore]

Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society's economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the "national interest"--that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

It's a definition of Fascism in the The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics (http://www.amazon.com/CONCISE-ENCYCLOPEDIA-ECONOMICS-DAVID-HENDERSON/dp/0865976651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238445318&sr=1-1).
That's where we're headed alright.

[mogrovejo]

You guys really need to decide once and for all whether you are going to call Obama a fascist or a socialist.

Who are "you guys"? I've already understood you're obsessed with Obama, democrats, republicans, idiots and labels in general - but this thread is not essentially about Obama, or even strictly about the US.

Thanks for the profound reasoning anyway.

[ChumpDumper]

Who are "you guys"? I've already understood you're obsessed with Obama, democrats, republicans, idiots and labels in general - but this thread is not essentially about Obama, or even strictly about the US.

Thanks for the profound reasoning anyway.So you aren't calling Obama or his policies fascist?

[Winehole23]

"Does this sound familiar?" in the title line, definition of fascism in the post. Does the observation fit or not? WH23 keeps referring to our mixed, Chinese-style economy. What do you call it, ChumpDumper? It ain't the system you and me grew up with.

Conceiving fascism as an economic arrangement, the implied comparison seems apt enough to me. De facto default is followed by de facto nationalization of broad sectors of the economy. I blame it on Bush and Obama both. Theme of continuity again.

The definitional *fascism* seems to have been adopted more as an expedience than as an aspiration in the USA: it's supposed to save *free trade* to fight another day. We'll see. I hope it does. The camel's nose is under the tent.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you call it, ChumpDumper? It ain't the system you and me grew up with.
It's the system that comes into play whenever capitalism fucks itself up out of a normally acceptable proportion. It has happened before.

[boutons_deux]

what's been going of for a LONG TIME is now being exposed, esp to the dumbfucks on the right.

"This country was sold, bought, and delivered a long time ago" - George Carlin.

The corps and the capitalists have captured the legislature and the regulatory bodies, democracy "for the people" is a sham, "democracy" for the corps and capitalists is the USA.

[Winehole23]

It's the system that comes into play whenever capitalism fucks itself up out of a normally acceptable proportion. It has happened before.The New Deal and WWII come to mind. Were you thinking of anything else?

[DarkReign]

It's the system that comes into play whenever capitalism fucks itself up out of a normally acceptable proportion. It has happened before.

Fair point, but do you think the Federal government will one day say "OK, our intervention is officially over. We give the reins back to the nearest investor."

Because I doubt it. Once they have the power theyll be loathe to give it away...even if they have to create conditions where their continued control seems most prudent to the general public.

[angrydude]

America was never meant to be a democracy anyway.

The left created the myth that america was a democracy and then denounce it for having forsaken its ideals.

But anyway, fascism is and always has been a form of socialism so this is hardly surprising news.

Go read a book written in 1945 and see what was really going on.

[Blake]

Go read a book written in 1945 and see what was really going on.

any book?

what if the book was written in 1944 but published in 1945........does that count?

[DarkReign]

any book?

what if the book was written in 1944 but published in 1945........does that count?

...I think I am finally catching on to your schtick. You and johnsmith interact much?

[ChumpDumper]

Fair point, but do you think the Federal government will one day say "OK, our intervention is officially over. We give the reins back to the nearest investor."They just sold IndyMac back to private investors.

Happens a lot.

[DarkReign]

They just sold IndyMac back to private investors.

Happens a lot.

Fair enough (<-- my overused phrase). I guess I am wrong until proven right. Its a convenient position.

[ChumpDumper]

Kind of depends on the situation. Regulations are always being enacted and repealed. There is an ongoing debate on whether the loosening of Depression era regulations contributed to the current recession. Usually the hubris of business types in good times is reflected in deregulatory legislation ("no really, we can handle it THIS time -- look how awesome we are now"), then when things go bad rubes like me say "I told you so" and call for more regulation.

[Blake]

...I think I am finally catching on to your schtick. You and johnsmith interact much?

you mean the schtick where I post smart ass remarks to ignorant dumb ass comments?

yeah, I do that a lot.

[DarkReign]

Kind of depends on the situation. Regulations are always being enacted and repealed. There is an ongoing debate on whether the loosening of Depression era regulations contributed to the current recession. Usually the hubris of business types in good times is reflected in deregulatory legislation ("no really, we can handle it THIS time -- look how awesome we are now"), then when things go bad rubes like me say "I told you so" and call for more regulation.

I can see both sides...and I usually dont try to middle-of-the-road topics like this.

But its the inherent difficulty of economic free trade. The American free market system was obviously the best choice and heaped vast wealth onto most of is citizens and certainly the government.

Over-regulating that market will hinder its ability to perform to its peak (or so it is said).

Not enough regulation and we all rise and fall by the whims of a few billionaires who buy and sell political moxy at will for favorable trade agreements and investment opportunities.

Big picture, for me? I dont think America is much different then the latter description. Its just veiled enough to trick the eye.

Im losing track...

Point is, there is no easy answer. Good conscience and will of character is a faith-based approach to regulation. Frankly, I dont trust my neighbor much less my fellow man. I side with regulation, but its an uninformed opinion.

[DarkReign]

you mean the schtick where I post smart ass remarks to ignorant dumb ass comments?

yeah, I do that a lot.

:lmao Yeah, that. Even when you had absolutely nothing to do with a conversation up to that point.

[Winehole23]

:lmao Yeah, that. Even when you had absolutely nothing to do with a conversation up to that point.Hence the comparison with johnsmith. There's no need to follow the conversation or even respond to it if what you really enjoy is dropping into threads to single out posters for derision.

It is possible to do both at the same time, but trolls are usually too lazy for that. Being insulting is enough, though if called out they will usually call it humor and "sport". I suppose it is.

[Winehole23]

The internet generally is a sweepstakes of sharp elbows and crankiness.

[Blake]

Hence the comparison with johnsmith. There's no need to follow the conversation or even respond to it if what you really enjoy is dropping into threads to single out posters for derision.

It is possible to do both at the same time, but trolls are usually too lazy for that. Being insulting is enough, though if called out they will usually call it humor and "sport". I suppose it is.

What conversation is happening in this thread that I'm not following?

I'm responding to angrydude's left field post while waiting for the OP to answer your question, WH.

I enjoy a good debate but I also get annoyed when someone tries to post something as fact when they failed to do even an ounce of research on the subject. I like to call them out on it.

If you call that trolling, so be it.

[ChumpDumper]

I enjoy a good debate but I also get annoyed when someone tries to post something as fact when they failed to do even an ounce of research on the subject and I call them out on it.That draws me into several threads as well. People here try to get away making up a lot of bullshit, and they become comically indignant when asked to back it up. It's internets gold.

[Winehole23]

If you call that trolling, so be it.Just trollish really, and everybody's guilty from time to time, just some more than others.

Look, you're a regular poster, Blake. Not a troll IMO. You give lucid and rational takes when you actually bother to give them. But sometimes you just slag on the poster without offering any useful addition to the thread. That's trollish.

[Winehole23]

So be it if that's really your preference.

[Blake]

So be it if that's really your preference.

yeah, I get a bit of enjoyment out of calling out stupid posts and I'm most likely gonna continue to do it.

If you have no problem with stupid ignorant posts being part of threads, then I'm not sure why you have a problem with "trollish" posts being parts of the same threads.

Even then, the great thing about this forum is the incredible technology that allows you to scroll past my posts........or better yet, put me on ignore.

[Wild Cobra]

You guys really need to decide once and for all whether you are going to call Obama a fascist or a socialist.
Why?

He has traits of everything that is disruptive to the heart of America. Traits of Marxism, Fascism, Socialism, etc... Anything but a "Republic, under God."

[Winehole23]

yeah, I get a bit of enjoyment out of calling out stupid posts and I'm most likely gonna continue to do it.Ok.


If you have no problem with stupid ignorant posts being part of threads, then I'm not sure why you have a problem with "trollish" posts being parts of the same threads. I don't really. I mildly agreed with DR, is all. I thought the similarity with johnsmith was credible.


Even then, the great thing about this forum is the incredible technology that allows you to scroll past my posts........or better yet, put me on ignore.If it's all right with you, I won't.

[ChumpDumper]

Why?

He has traits of everything that is disruptive to the heart of America. Traits of Marxism, Fascism, Socialism, etc... Anything but a "Republic, under God.":lmao

[Blake]

I don't really. I mildly agreed with DR, is all. I thought the similarity with johnsmith was credible.



Hence the comparison with johnsmith. There's no need to follow the conversation or even respond to it if what you really enjoy is dropping into threads to single out posters for derision.

I wonder if DR really enjoyed singling me out for derision.

If he didn't enjoy it, does that mean he didn't really pull a "johnsmith"?

[Blake]

Why?

He has traits of everything that is disruptive to the heart of America. Traits of Marxism, Fascism, Socialism, etc... Anything but a "Republic, under God."

do I need to ask permission from anyone before I give a smart ass remark to this dumbass post, lest I be called a johnsmith again?

[Winehole23]

I wonder if DR really enjoyed singling me out for derision.

If he didn't enjoy it, does that mean he didn't really pull a "johnsmith"?Maybe. I said right away that we're all guilty, so we seem to be in basic agreement that it's a target rich environment.

[Winehole23]

...

[Winehole23]

WH23 is a complaint-complainer and awaits your submission. If you go on to abuse WC, you have my blessing. Really.

[Blake]

WH23 is a complaint-complainer and awaits your submission. If you go on to abuse WC, you have my blessing. Really.

dang.......it's just not the same level of enjoyment for me if it's not off the cuff.

[Winehole23]

...

[Blake]

...

:lol

[johnsmith]

:lmao Finally my internet name is no longer just a sissy noun.

[Winehole23]

It's the system that comes into play whenever capitalism fucks itself up out of a normally acceptable proportion. It has happened before.Were the banks running the show in 1933, or was FDR?

[Blake]

:lmao Finally my internet name is no longer just a sissy noun.

it's also a verb. Apparently I 'johnsmithed' this thread.

[Don Quixote]

Why (should we have to label him as one thing)?

He has traits of everything that is disruptive to the heart of America. Traits of Marxism, Fascism, Socialism, etc... Anything but a "Republic, under God."

Very true. I'm not sure what his beliefs are. (It would have helped had the media, you know, asked?) But I too detect strains of left-wing populism, big-govt liberalism, perhaps some socialism, although he would never admit to it. And the cult of personality around which his campaign was built looked like fascism.

[Blake]

And the cult of personality around which his campaign was built looked like fascism.

Exactly how has Obama built a cult of personality? do you know what a cult of personality is, or are you just regurgitating something you heard from Rush? How does it look like fascism? What is your definition of fascism?

I seem to recall a certain President that flew in on a battleship, got in front of the soliders and the TV cameras and declared victory in a war that is still going on.

[MannyIsGod]

Fair point, but do you think the Federal government will one day say "OK, our intervention is officially over. We give the reins back to the nearest investor."

Because I doubt it. Once they have the power theyll be loathe to give it away...even if they have to create conditions where their continued control seems most prudent to the general public.

#1 - They've done it before

#2 - They need to impose better regulations unless you'd like to see AIG happen all over again. No one is capable of policing themselves. Capitalism hasn't lost out in this, but Laissez-faire economics sure as hell did.

[MannyIsGod]

I can see both sides...and I usually dont try to middle-of-the-road topics like this.

But its the inherent difficulty of economic free trade. The American free market system was obviously the best choice and heaped vast wealth onto most of is citizens and certainly the government.



Why? Because thats what you've been told? You know what gets me DR? Everytime I hear a congressman drecry European socialism because many of those countries have higher standards of living than the United States.

The United States is the wealthiest country in the world and there's no question about that, but that doensn't mean smaller countries are run in more efficent manners and provide their citizens with higher quality of life.

There are many reaosns why the US was able to achieve its current stature in the world, but just because eomeone is leading a race doesn't mean they nessecarily have the best training program.

I think this is so important, because people in this country have such a damning sense of nationalism. God bless America, Our president is the leader of the free world, we're the beacon of hope for the world, etc etc. Our national hubris is too much, imo.

And thats not to say that I'm anti American at all, I simply feel some humility and willingness to accept that others may have a better way or at the least something to offer is important and we are severely lacking.

[ChumpDumper]

Very true. I'm not sure what his beliefs are. (It would have helped had the media, you know, asked?) But I too detect strains of left-wing populism, big-govt liberalism, perhaps some socialism, although he would never admit to it. And the cult of personality around which his campaign was built looked like fascism.You guys should really read what you write sometime. It's hilarious.

[Cry Havoc]

Why? Because thats what you've been told? You know what gets me DR? Everytime I hear a congressman drecry European socialism because many of those countries have higher standards of living than the United States.

The United States is the wealthiest country in the world and there's no question about that, but that doensn't mean smaller countries are run in more efficent manners and provide their citizens with higher quality of life.

There are many reaosns why the US was able to achieve its current stature in the world, but just because eomeone is leading a race doesn't mean they nessecarily have the best training program.

I think this is so important, because people in this country have such a damning sense of nationalism. God bless America, Our president is the leader of the free world, we're the beacon of hope for the world, etc etc. Our national hubris is too much, imo.

And thats not to say that I'm anti American at all, I simply feel some humility and willingness to accept that others may have a better way or at the least something to offer is important and we are severely lacking.

I cannot agree with you more emphatically.

[LnGrrrR]

Why?

He has traits of everything that is disruptive to the heart of America. Traits of Marxism, Fascism, Socialism, etc... Anything but a "Republic, under God."

BOO!

(I love scaring ol' paranoid WC.)

[Winehole23]

Very true. I'm not sure what his beliefs are. (It would have helped had the media, you know, asked?) But I too detect strains of left-wing populism, big-govt liberalism, perhaps some socialism, although he would never admit to it.These were obvious to the likes of JTP during the campaign, why not to you?

I thought Obama was straight-forward about his political orientation during the campaign. What he said during the campaign led me to believe his would be an activist government with social democratic and war planks. Maybe you just can't accept that Obama's political orientation is part of why he was elected so you ignore the plain evidence of your eyes and suggest Obama was sneaky about his real views.

[Wild Cobra]

dang.......it's just not the same level of enjoyment for me if it's not off the cuff.
Doesn't matter to me. I'll just correct the points you're wrong about.

I notice that so few people understand what I mean when I say the "Heart of America." I guess that because so few people have it. Almost no liberal/progressive has it.

[DarkReign]

I wonder if DR really enjoyed singling me out for derision.

If he didn't enjoy it, does that mean he didn't really pull a "johnsmith"?

Oh, dont get your panties in a bunch, now. I wasnt singling you out, I actually enjoy when someone gets johnsmithed. As long as its done with merit, it can be humerous enough to alleviate the oblique seriousness of some subjects.

Its just that, and this may only be a personal trait or whatever, I find most people fall into categories. It isnt so much I try to classify them, its that over time, they start to resemble one another in similar ways.

johnsmith, Blake and gtown...to varying degrees, resemble one another.

I think on the scale of absurdity it goes (from least to greatest), Blake, john then gtown.

But even gtown switched names and has completely changed his approach to the forum (for the better...much better actually...although I admit, I had a soft spot for his humor....this is a forum after all).

I guess what you guys do could be considered mildly troll-ish, but really, its done well and executed better than your typical, run of the mill mouse troll. Or the troll forum for that matter (havent been there since its inception...too weird).

Anyway, thats my ST summary for the day. Enjoy. And dont take offense...just because you and I dont agree on public smoking doesnt mean I hold that against you in every thread to the end of time here on this forum (unlike someone else I know....).

[Blake]

Doesn't matter to me. I'll just correct the points you're wrong about.

I notice that so few people understand what I mean when I say the "Heart of America." I guess that because so few people have it. Almost no liberal/progressive has it.

I'm not sure, but I think Obama gave the queen a heart of America pendant to go with the Ipod.

[Blake]

And dont take offense...just because you and I dont agree on public smoking doesnt mean I hold that against you in every thread to the end of time here on this forum (unlike someone else I know....).

I never take offense to something idiots say on a message board......

unless it's thunder dan who keeps trying to justify his statement that "rich people and black people drive cadillacs"...

[DarkReign]

Why? Because thats what you've been told? You know what gets me DR? Everytime I hear a congressman drecry European socialism because many of those countries have higher standards of living than the United States.

The United States is the wealthiest country in the world and there's no question about that, but that doensn't mean smaller countries are run in more efficent manners and provide their citizens with higher quality of life.

There are many reaosns why the US was able to achieve its current stature in the world, but just because eomeone is leading a race doesn't mean they nessecarily have the best training program.

I think this is so important, because people in this country have such a damning sense of nationalism. God bless America, Our president is the leader of the free world, we're the beacon of hope for the world, etc etc. Our national hubris is too much, imo.

And thats not to say that I'm anti American at all, I simply feel some humility and willingness to accept that others may have a better way or at the least something to offer is important and we are severely lacking.

I think you might have misinterpreted what I said, to an extent, then went on to make a very good point.


The American free market system was obviously the best choice and heaped vast wealth onto most of is citizens and certainly the government.

Key word: was. Meaning, at the time of its inception to its glory years...and man were they glorious for a nearly a century.

No one can argue with the system's results. Yes, of course it should be open to criticism and ridicule for its obvious short-comings. But to be an American in the 20th century...Im sorry, we did have it better than the rest of the world (except maybe Canada, all the benefits, none of the responsibility).

But lets not pretend that the European market system is any less prone to abuse. It is...very much so, as evidenced by their economic turmoil now.

This extends beyond the housing market, or real estate values, bad mortgages, CDSs, etc. This is a systemic problem of the ultra-rich getting ultra-richer by ways and means of other's wealth.

To be honest, I despise money at all levels. But its like government, a necessary evil.

Ive said it before, I really hate people who create nothing, manufacture nothing and produce nothing, yet are some of the richest people in the world.

Sure, you can see their services as an asset to their customers because they do indeed increase their wealth. But in order to do that, the investors must assume some amount of risk, some times huge risks depending on aggresiveness.

Thats a fair deal and I understand it. But what risks does this wealth manager deal with? Worst case scenario, he risks his job. None of his wealth, though (unless he is investing right along side his customers, which I am sure 99.9% of them are).

ES said it best, if we were truly as mad as we say we are and if we as a country were worth the land we sit upon, we'd have lynched the entirety of Wall Street the day after as a warning to the furture wealth managers of the risk they assume in their position.

As it stands, these assholes are only benefitting from their larceny. Because thats what it was...larceny. Grand theft of trillions of dollars (did you know the British do not use the term trillion? They use thousand billion...didnt knwo that until recently).

And what is their punishment? What is the ultimate way we as People can say "Fuck you for stealing our money!"

We give them our tax dollars because our entire system of money hinges upon their success or failure. We as a People do not want to even entertain any ideas that could possibly prevent any company/bank/institution from becoming similarly large enough in the future that its failure sends our way of the life down the crapper.

I am quite sorry, but my sympathy for the average investor/American is about nil at the moment. Ignorance and arrogance got us this far ahead and it will certainly take us further behind as well.

Thats my take on our market system....it fucking sucks. Its always sucked, our monetary system sucks and the tipping point at which your money makes money for you with little effort is extremely high (purposely so, I might add).

Now, this thread addresses fascism, which lead to the discussion of different government systems in use throughout the world (Canada, Britain, etc).

First, I want to make clear that in the statement you quoted I was only talking about the market/money system, not the government.

To address the various government systems in place around the world and to what scope they do or do not provide services to their people...

Im sorry, smaller is better. Simple designs are always better than complicated designs. Forever and always.

Systems get complex with purpose, no matter if we're talking government or computer programs. They get complicated because their intended functions get ever larger in scope. Whether your goal is to provide healthcare to every man, woman and child, or make a slinky animate its fall down a stairs using a physics model, it gets complicated.

Since we're talking about government, you must add the human factor. Again, I dont trust my fellow man in any way shape or form. But its necessary for a functioning society so it becomes a balance between of power. How is enough? Where is the line drawn in power of government over its people?

Power to enact law, power to enforce law, power to wage war using its citizens as fodder, power, power, power.

Government being one giant bureaucracy, its inherently slow to change. Might the Europeans have some useful insight on government? Sure, why not. Does it mean we should follow? Of course not. This is the same continent that tried killing itself twice in the past century. This is the same continent responsible for the majority of the world's ills because of their selfish desire and poor, mostly futile attempts to carve borders properly on a global scale.

So yes, they might have insight, but we have ours as well and we should not delve so willingly into their mindset, just as we should not so staunchly object to holding on to some of our core beliefs about government, as well.

There is a reason our system worked better than theirs...that they pretty much adopted wholesale the way we do business and have similar ways of electing leadership (similar, not exact, excluding France post-Emperor Napolean).

My problem boils down to these things:

1) I have no faith in my fellow man to make any decisions that could be looked at objectively as "successful". The world should be run by scientists using the scientific method, even if its a practice in futility, its better than what we're doing.

2) Size and scope of government in our lives is a concern. A terribly, trembling concern. It should be on the minds and hearts of everyone that our government is increasing its size and reach significantly.

3) To incorporate any European-style services, we must first decide what we will cut from our own. Again, all we would be doing is tacking on more products and services the government is responsible for in addition to what it already is committed to. We cant have it all without giving it all away first. I dont trust that approach in the slightest. Actually, I'd disappear before then....right off the grid.

4) Take a sobering look at what government is expected to do by its citizens and consider that the self-indulgent masses might not be the best place to derive ideas about its administration. It is time, IMO, to shut it down in totality and craft an entirely new system of government and finance. I realize this is the pipedream of pipedreams.

I admit that I dont have the answers. I also admit not everyone will like it or even benefit. But its my opinion that the time of big government with big money and big commitments is past, or at least should be (pipedream in today's world, what with all the crying for; More! More! More!) I say this because as government's become more powerful and far-reaching, the more the wealthy covet its control. And control they will...fucking inevitably. To pretend that Utopia exists, or that there is even ONE fucking government in existence or history that is run by the People, for the People is a delusion and that person's opinion should be disregarded out of hand. The powerful will continue to be powerful, no matter who is in charge at the moment.

Limiting the power that government has will reduce their ability to exert their will over us. Why is it government is always so willing to increase its role? Obviously because the larger the role, the more influence, the more influence, the more power over its money stream.

Make no mistake. Government views us as a revenue stream. Nothing more. Its just some contribute more than others and this determines pecking order. Those at the top craft policy, we at the bottom eat the difference.

Increasing that power is well beyond something I would agree to, and that is certainly what I view European government to be. So unless we re-write the Constitution, our laws, our taxes and our money system, I have no will to adopt anything European. Not now, not ever.

Not because I am some flag-waving patriot who hates liberals, but because I am a borderline hermit who just wants to be left the fuck alone by greedy politicians and their never-ending thirst for a larger stake in my checkbook.

[DarkReign]

Holy God, Wall of Text, hallowed be thy name...

[DarkReign]

I never take offense to something idiots say on a message board......

Subtle....reeeeeeal subtle.

[Blake]

Subtle....reeeeeeal subtle.

:lol honest, I really wasn't referring to you........this time.

:lol

cmon now, I like you DR, even if you don't believe the Surgeon General when he says that second hand smoke is bad for you.

[Wild Cobra]

I never take offense to something idiots say on a message board......

unless it's thunder dan who keeps trying to justify his statement that "rich people and black people drive cadillacs"...
I just put the total idiots on IGNORE like Clambake. He's to pathetic to laugh at.

[Cry Havoc]

:lol honest, I really wasn't referring to you........this time.

:lol

cmon now, I like you DR, even if you don't believe the Surgeon General when he says that second hand smoke is bad for you.

http://thetobaccoindustry.net/images/family-guy-smoke.jpg

[clambake]

I just put the total idiots on IGNORE like Clambake.
where's your whore with my pot stickers?


He's to pathetic to laugh at.

it's spelled "too".....dumbass

[johnsmith]

I just put the total idiots on IGNORE like Clambake. He's to pathetic to laugh at.

Clambake is hilarious and good people............

[Winehole23]

Holy God, Wall of Text, hallowed be thy name...I thought this was a nice little nutshell:


Make no mistake. Government views us as a revenue stream. Nothing more. Its just some contribute more than others and this determines pecking order. Those at the top craft policy, we at the bottom eat the difference.

[ChumpDumper]

Doesn't matter to me. I'll just correct the points you're wrong about.

I notice that so few people understand what I mean when I say the "Heart of America." I guess that because so few people have it. Almost no liberal/progressive has it.Nobody cares when you post it because it's bullshit. Trying to claim you are more American than other Americans is, in fact, un-American.

And pointless.

And belies a decided lack of thought. Palin proved that.

[LnGrrrR]

Holy God, Wall of Text, hallowed be thy name...

I enjoy your posts DR, but even I couldn't take that diatribe. Maybe I'll go get some coffee and come back for Round 2.

[Wild Cobra]

Clambake is hilarious and good people............
Well I like comedy too. However, sometimes the comedy is so dumb, I cannot stomach it. Then when you add the relentless personal attacks. I have absolutely zero respect for people with such malevolence. The only respect I can find for them is pity.

[Winehole23]

The only respect I can find for them is pity.That's a rather odd equivalence, but maybe it's not quite what you meant to say. Had you said you feel pity instead of respect, that would have made more sense. Or do you really think pity is a kind of respect? Most people -- I think -- find pity condescending.

There is an antique but highly influential notion (Aristotle, Poetics) that tragedy is theraputic and purges us cathartically of ignoble feelings like pity and compassion. (Aristotle was an aristocrat at heart. It's practically his first name.)

I am not saying you are wrong, WC. I just wanted to point out there's a common way to gloss it that runs counter. Admittedly the ranking of the passions in antiquity does not line up too well with our own.

The foregoing is a long preamble for a very simple personal question: do you distinguish respect from pity, or do you conflate them?

[Winehole23]

The headsnapping way WC careens from the merely personal (clambake) to the completely general and abstract (them), gives a clue to his method IMO.

[Wild Cobra]

That's a rather odd equivalence, but maybe it's not quite what you meant to say. Had you said you feel pity instead of respect, that would have made more sense. Or do you really think pity is a kind of respect? Most people -- I think -- find pity condescending.

You're right. When I make morning posts, I'm often tired. I just got off work. I changed jobs last year and I'm now working a graveyard shift. I personally prefer it. I hate day shift and swing shift both. I can pick the part of the day I sleep, have the best part of the day in the summers, etc. It comes at a price however. Sometimes I'm not so coherent.