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View Full Version : Thoughts on the rotation, and a sample



the crimson blur
04-01-2009, 08:52 AM
Sup guys, first post. I have been lurking here for years mostly for news and game thoughts but never registered.

Yesterday's loss to the OKC Thunder made just about every fan, including me, wonder what the hell Pop was thinking. The rotations are out of whack and they need to be fixed quickly. But it is easy to complain without proposing a solution. So I put on my coach's hat and gave it a go. I made my own rotation. Here it is:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pO29H8sOm48_m_hmyqcBUBQ (scroll left/right and up/down to see the entire spreadsheet)

Now, a rotation is never particularly consistent; it varies based on a few factors. One is how competitive the game is. I made this rotation on the assumption that it is a competitive playoff game. Not a game 7 nailbiter that requires TP to play 44 minutes, but also not a blowout where the big 3 sit the second half. Another factor is matchups and their corresponding adjustments. For example, we may want to use Bruce more against the Lakers to slow down Kobe (though this has not been the case thus far this season). But, matchups go beyond the scope of what we can determine heading into the playoffs, and realistically, they don't change either the rotation or the player's overall minutes that much. So read this rotation knowing it could change depending on other variables. It isn't supposed to be what I want the Spurs to run every game, regardless of circumstance, but rather a basic rotation which can be worked around depending on the situation. Basically, the average minutes for each player, what roles I would like to see them in, the lineups I want to see on the floor consistently, etc.

Now that thats out of the way, onto the meat of it all. Here are some decisions I made.

This team only has room for one defensive stopper.

Eventually Pop is going to have to choose between Ime Udoka, Bruce Bowen, and George Hill. In a competitive playoff game, it just doesn't make sense that their collective minutes (about 15 min) should be split 3 ways. Though I love all 3 of them, this lineup needs shortening. You can't play 12 guys in a playoff game unless you want to sacrifice your starters some minutes. I ended up choosing Bruce Bowen as the stopper, but I can see the argument for any of the 3. Bruce is the best passer of the three, knows the system the best, and has valuable playoff experience. Hill might be the best defender of the 3, but unlike Bruce, he can't guard a very versatile range of players; Hill is mostly stuck on 1s and 2s because of his height. Udoka is by far the worst defender of the 3, but is the best rebounder and offensive weapon. But, in my opinion, Udoka's shots are often out of the flow of the offense and therefore counterproductive. 3 ball fakes at the 3 point line into a 2 pointer aren't going to work against good teams. Bruce is a known quantity, and with a fading championship window, I don't think its time to experiment with a rookie and a guy who just cracked the rotation a month ago. But again, you could replace Bruce's name with either Hill or Udoka and I'd understand.

Manu is the backup PG

This has been covered in a ton of other posts so I won't dwell on it. We aren't going anywhere in the postseason with Vaughn as our backup point. Vaughn is a poor defender, has literally no offensive game (the Thunder barely guarded him), and is a vastly overrated passer. 13 mins and 1 ast? Yeah, he runs the offense, but with him on the floor, you get the Rondo complex but worse; when the ball isn't in his hands, the defense just forgets him. He missed both of his shots (WIDE OPEN) and made 3 stupid fouls in limited time. So much for veteran savvy...*sigh* Its not like JV was ever the primary ballhandler in the other playoff runs...Manu did all the heavy lifting.

Finley needs to get major minutes

No matter what we say of him, Finley must and will get major minutes. Pop isn't giving Fin minutes because he has a mancrush, it is because it is functionally impossible to have it any other way. Try to make a rotation yourself without giving Fin more than 20 minutes. What ends up happening is putting Manu at the SF, forcing us to go super small (you want Manu guarding SFs in this league for extended periods of time? Ron Artest, Lebron James, and Paul Pierce?), or giving the defensive stopper of your choice (Bruce in my case) some of his minutes. But all the defensive stoppers are a liability on offense in some way, and with the way the Spurs offense goes, you really need to have a shooter, preferably 2 or even 3, on the floor at all times. Fin's a sharpshooter, so he is necessary. There is nothing we can do about it now; if we wanted a better SF we should have gotten one when we had the chance. Fin is the best we have. Trust me, it was hard enough to get him down to 27 mins.

Rebound rate needs to be managed

Even a casual observation of the OKC match could tell you that the rebounding battle was very, very odd. At times, the Spurs were doing well on the boards, and at others, they were getting manhandled. The manhandling generally came in the form of a rebound slipping out of Bonner's hands despite some great hustle. But no hustle can change a person's wingspan. The fact of the matter is that those same rebounds would have been grabbed by Drew as long as he gave the same hustle. So, with that in mind, we have to think of our rebounding options. Kurt, Drew, and TD are all very solid to great rebounders. Manu is one of the best rebounders of his position (ranked 3rd in the league). I set up the rotation so that we have a few good rebounders in the game at all times. There is nothing more frustrating than when the opponent gets a second chance point, and those have been killing us lately. And, if you pay attention, you'll notice that they almost never come when TD is on the floor. So I made the rotation so that our best rebounders are on the floor when TD isn't.

Specific player combinations

You may have noticed that the "courttime with" section has an odd distribution. The way I set the rotation up, I kept in mind certain player combinations that work better than others. If nothing else could be gained from the last few disastrous games, at least we now know that Manu and Gooden work spectacularly with one another. Manu never gives a player the ball without purpose, thus eliminating Gooden's weakness as a poor passer. If Manu gives you a pass, he probably doesn't want it back, and well, Gooden likely wouldn't give it back anyways, so it all works out. And, Manu's long strides to the basket often cause gapes in the defense, which allows Gooden to come and tip a missed shot in.

There are other, more obvious combos also considered when creating my rotation, which you can see in the "courttime with" section.

Conclusion

I recommend you guys try and make rotations of your own and compare them with mine. It really makes you understand more about the team and what Pop has been trying to do the last few weeks. By making this sample rotation, I understand why Pop has had so much trouble recently. What do you think of my rotation, and what can be improved upon?

Drive for five baby. :flag:

anonoftheinternets
04-01-2009, 09:26 AM
i give A+ for effort ..... :toast

Illusionarist
04-01-2009, 09:31 AM
Yeap. Although I do not agree with all of your ponits I think your efoort desrves a A+. Excellent work.:king

Indazone
04-01-2009, 09:36 AM
Bonner will remain on the floor as he has earned Pop's trust and will get playing time. It's BONNER TIME!

the crimson blur
04-02-2009, 10:04 AM
While I appreciate the A+, I'd like to know you guys' opinions. It'd make me feel like someone actually read what I wrote :lol

Brazil
04-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Man this is what I called a serious solid first post !

Once again I have no problem with finley having 20-25 min, I understand your point regarding the difficulty to give him only 27 min but for some games the guy had 39 min.

Now I'm sure that there is room for G. Hill, IMO Pop needs to give him the back up PG minutes and you give these min to Manu at SF and Finley go back for a good balanced 20 minutes.

xtremesteven33
04-02-2009, 10:40 AM
Parker
Ginobili
Bowen
Duncan
Thomas


That should be our starting 5.....what the F*** is wrong with Pop

Yogurt210
04-02-2009, 10:42 AM
^ I agree
Been saying this months ago haha

portnoy1
04-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Yall are going to laugh but here it is.

PF - Duncan / Thomas
SF - Bowen /
C - Oberto / Gooden
PG - Parker / Hill
SG - Finley / Ginobili.

The reason for starting Oberto is this; While he may be slow, he understands the defensive rotations and he has been the starting center for the last 2 seasons ( 06-07 and 07-08 ) the last two seasons we have an nba title 07' and got to the western conference finals 08'. Last year he averaged 5.2 rbds a game ( behind duncan's team leading 11.3 ) not counting how many times he tipped the ball out for a new possesion and shot clock.

The Reason for not starting thomas, is that he is a better offensive player than oberto, which allows the offense to still be somewhat stable when duncan leaves the floor.

The reason for not starting Bonner is that when he is not hitting 3's, he cant really do much else. Oberto can pass , set good screens, rebound and defend better. and he has a much higher basketball IQ.

The reason for starting Finley is that he won't shoot you out of a game and he can finish with a layup or an occasional dunk. Manu coming of the bench is better; It allows manu to have the ball to create and fuel the offense when parker and duncan are not in the game. Mason jr. cant make a layup much less dunk, and although he has made some big shots, alot of his three point attempts are ill-advised.

the starters - Duncan and parker are the offense. Finley will hit open shots, as will bruce along with defending the oppositions premier perimiter player. and last oberto will help duncan on the boards, run the high low and make defensive rotations along with hustle plays.

the bench - Ginobili will be the offense. Gooden and thomas will rebound, hit the open jumpers off pknrolls. hill will hit open shots, DEFEND and give Ginobili another slasher to get to rim. making things easier on ginobili. also Gooden will get an occasional touch in the post, just to mix things up.

out of the rotation - bonner, mason Jr. , Udoka and vaughn. Vaughn can come in if they are having problems at the point with hill or ginobili. The other 3 can come in if some spurs arent showing any hustle and theyre jumpshots aren't falling and the defense is starting to sag on tim, tony and manu.

thats my plan, let me know what you think and why.

SanAntonioSpurs23
04-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Yall are going to laugh but here it is.

PF - Duncan / Thomas
SF - Bowen /
C - Oberto / Gooden
PG - Parker / Hill
SG - Finley / Ginobili.

The reason for starting Oberto is this; While he may be slow, he understands the defensive rotations and he has been the starting center for the last 2 seasons ( 06-07 and 07-08 ) the last two seasons we have an nba title 07' and got to the western conference finals 08'. Last year he averaged 5.2 rbds a game ( behind duncan's team leading 11.3 ) not counting how many times he tipped the ball out for a new possesion and shot clock.

The Reason for not starting thomas, is that he is a better offensive player than oberto, which allows the offense to still be somewhat stable when duncan leaves the floor.

The reason for not starting Bonner is that when he is not hitting 3's, he cant really do much else. Oberto can pass , set good screens, rebound and defend better. and he has a much higher basketball IQ.

The reason for starting Finley is that he won't shoot you out of a game and he can finish with a layup or an occasional dunk. Manu coming of the bench is better; It allows manu to have the ball to create and fuel the offense when parker and duncan are not in the game. Mason jr. cant make a layup much less dunk, and although he has made some big shots, alot of his three point attempts are ill-advised.

the starters - Duncan and parker are the offense. Finley will hit open shots, as will bruce along with defending the oppositions premier perimiter player. and last oberto will help duncan on the boards, run the high low and make defensive rotations along with hustle plays.

the bench - Ginobili will be the offense. Gooden and thomas will rebound, hit the open jumpers off pknrolls. hill will hit open shots, DEFEND and give Ginobili another slasher to get to rim. making things easier on ginobili. also Gooden will get an occasional touch in the post, just to mix things up.

out of the rotation - bonner, mason Jr. , Udoka and vaughn. Vaughn can come in if they are having problems at the point with hill or ginobili. The other 3 can come in if some spurs arent showing any hustle and theyre jumpshots aren't falling and the defense is starting to sag on tim, tony and manu.

thats my plan, let me know what you think and why.


I don't agree with starting Oberto or starting Finley.

Pg- Tony P
Sg- Mason JR
Sf- BOWEN
PF- Tim Duncan
C- KURT THOMAS

2nd unit

Pg- GEORGE HILL
SG- Manu Ginobili (handles ball)
Sf- Michael Finley/ Udoka
Pf- Drew Gooden
C- Matt Bonner/ Oberto

Let JV help COACH George Hill

ElNono
04-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Ginobili is going to play ~ 30 MPG in the playoffs (unless it's a blowout). You read it here first...

I also think Pop will try to keep 2 of the big 3 on the court at all times...

portnoy1
04-02-2009, 01:15 PM
I don't agree with starting Oberto or starting Finley.

Pg- Tony P
Sg- Mason JR
Sf- BOWEN
PF- Tim Duncan
C- KURT THOMAS

2nd unit

Pg- GEORGE HILL
SG- Manu Ginobili (handles ball)
Sf- Michael Finley/ Udoka
Pf- Drew Gooden
C- Matt Bonner/ Oberto

Let JV help COACH George Hill
Why would you keep bonner in the rotation and start mason jr? im just curious to see your angle on that. that all, im not try to debate or anything.

Joe Schmoogins
04-02-2009, 02:16 PM
I disagree with you that Fin needs major minutes... you didn't make a very good argument supporting your case. Those minutes could just as easily be given to Bowen. But good work though... I enjoyed reading it. Also, I would prefer to find a way to get Hill into the mix.

dbestpro
04-02-2009, 02:31 PM
Starting lineup:
C Thomas, PF Duncan, SF Bowen, SG Ginolbili, PG Parker
bench rotation:
Primary C-PF Gooden Secondary (Oberto or Bonner depending on matchups or fouls)
SF - Finley
SG - Mason
PG - Hill (when Manu is on the floor. Parker or Manu should always be on the floor).

The rotation sits at 9 with Bonner, Udoka, Vaughn and Oberto only used for certain matchups.

portnoy1
04-02-2009, 02:39 PM
the main thing is this, No matter how much we screw with the rotation we are going to have the same problem. as a team we dont have young, athletic players. Hill is young and athletic. mason is not athletic and he is about to hit the 30 mark. bowen is athletic but is certainly not young.
Parker is young and athletic. For now we have to use whatever players are young and athletic ( hill / parker / Gooden? ) and the rest have to have a high basketball IQ and play defense. More importantly I think the spurs should use next year to go after younger moldable players. Hairston / Gist / Mahinmi / Splitter / Javotkas are what the spurs have waiting for them. pull out the same amount of cash they normal use to sign 60 yr old free agents and use the excess money to get a premier Sf or C/Pf. FYI -Andrea Bargnani can opt out of his contract next season. Possible pickup for us.

dbestpro
04-02-2009, 02:42 PM
Pop won't play Hill in prime time this year and he won't play Gist, Hairston or Ian in prime time next year.

The only thing Pop will go for is another veteran player.

portnoy1
04-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Pop won't play Hill in prime time this year and he won't play Gist, Hairston or Ian in prime time next year.

The only thing Pop will go for is another veteran player.
In that case we might wind -up 6th or 7th seed next year. the whole get team players thing is cool and all. But its only cool if the big 3 are young and can carry a team all by themselves. they cant anymore without consistent help. they need younger players at every position sitting on that bench. I pray this year that we dont play the Blazers, because if we do, you know whats gona happen. whats even worse is that everybody in league wont be suprised if - you know what - happens.

portnoy1
04-04-2009, 10:14 AM
whatever the rotation, bonner is a liability defensively and doesn't have a high basketball IQ. I still think Oberto and Bowen should start along with duncan/parker/finley. Then have Ginobili as the offense off the bench just incase we come out flat and need a pick me up midway through the first quarter. If not Manu then who will be the spark off the bench, Ian Mahimni possibly. I think seeing him in a suit might give the spurs a jolt. or maybe J. Vaughn or Maybe Kurt thomas. All those guys have lots of energy RIGHT?