Where is tonights Nazr>Wilt thread?

[whottt]

I sense a lack of enthusiasm to get all over Nazr's jock tonight...AHF...TPark...your public is waiting.

C'mon, tell us how this guy is going to become the most complete player in NBA history.


AHF don't use the new team excuse...because you guys don't let Malik use that.

Hey TPark, how come none wants to post Nazr's boxscores anymore?

Olowokandi........................................ .....................................

[TheWriter]

Malik is GOD!!!

Playing worse as a Knick in the same amount of minutes (17) he got with the Spurs this season.

He owns!!!!

And the Coyote is another GOD!

Huh.

[ducks]

dude horry went nuts he should not see as many minutes when horry went off
besides horry's favorite fan went to the game tonight
so horry had to show off

[Rummpd]

stupid thread, Spurs dominate and negativity about a player who has played very well in time given rules.

[whottt]

ducks...let's not make this about Horry. This is about Nazr.

C'mon, this guy is a HOF'er according to you guys...explain tonights game.

Note:I am not saying he sucks...but Malik didn't suck either, contrary to what you guys have been claiming, Duncan was not celebrating his best friends getting run, contrary to what the haters claimed, and you guys have been riding Nazr's jock jock way too hard.

[whottt]

stupid thread, Spurs dominate and negativity about a player who has played very well in time given rules.


My bad, maybe I'll start a suck ass thread trying to put myself over as Nostradmus and telling everyone what a great prognosticator I am.

Nah, prolly not, because no one really gives a fuck.

[ducks]

So If A Big Is Hot You Want Pop To Bench Him For Nazr Now?

[ducks]

and whott for the record I think rose and nazr are just as talented
just rose can not get 20-25 minutes a game and a player making as much should

[ducks]

I think nazr can be a better defender because he has the height
and if he plays along side like david and duncna for 7 years year (like rose did) can be a better defender then rose
ofcourse I do not think it will take 7 years
you can not teach height

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

AHF don't use the new team excuse...because you guys don't let Malik use that

Rose had been here for seven years, when's enough? :lol

When Horry is going nuclear, I don't expect to see other bigs out there not named Tim. *shrugs*

[whottt]

So If A Big Is Hot You Want Pop To Bench Him For Nazr Now?


WHATTTTTTTTTT?

Look...clowns have been acting like Malik was dogshit who was dragging the franchise down and Nazr is potentially the greatest player in NBA history.

I and TimVP brought up that this guy has flaws and we were told we got owned...

Now that we have seen the other side of the coin(to steal a phrase from Chump)...I just want to see if these guys are ready to admit that they got carried away hyping this guy.

Anyone with a brain can see Mohammed's oboards and putbacks are going to be great for this team, and his size may help intimidate inside scorers.....but it's time to admit that hyping this guy as a starter or saying he's a complete player, is getting carried away....bigtime. He's got flaws just like Malik did.

[ducks]

WHATTTTTTTTTT?


Anyone with a brain can see Mohammed's oboards and putbacks are going to be great for this team...but it's time to admit that hyping this guy as a starter or saying he's a complete player is getting carried away. He's got flaws just like Malik did.


he sure dragged the spurs down last year when he had that awesome talk on the radio about how unfair his benching was
right during a playoff series in which the spurs lost and then later on admitted he quit
quitters that get paid millions to perfrom are.........

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You want to know what's funny about your Rose Love vs. Nazr hate right now?

Malik's been getting consistently more minutes up in NY so far, and he and Nazr's points are a wash, Nazr has him doubled up on boards and blocks.

No one's been saying that Nazr is going to be potentially the greatest in NBA history. Quit being such a dumbfuck Rose lover on this one.


Anyone with a brain can see Mohammed's oboards and putbacks are going to be great for this team.

Well, that's more than your bipolar ass was willing to admit when you were pimping anonymous NYKnick fan internet postings.

[whottt]

I think nazr can be a better defender because he has the height
Yeah? And Shawn Bradley?


and if he plays along side like david and duncna for 7 years year (like rose did) can be a better defender then rose
ofcourse I do not think it will take 7 years
you can not teach height


You also can't teach desire and that was Malik's greatest attribute. You don't last 8 years as 6'5 PF, as the main back up big on a perennial title contender, without having a great deal of desire.

We have needed a garbage man alongside for years...even while Drob was still on the team we started having this need..and this guy is going to be awesome in that role...he may be able to use his size to intimidate shooters better than Malik...but it's not the onesided trade the Rose haters are portraying it to be.

[ducks]

Yeah? And Shawn Bradley?




You also can't teach desire and that was Malik's greatest attribute. You don't last 8 years as 6'5 PF, as the main back up big on a perennial title contender, without having a great deal of desire.

We have needed a garbage man alongside for years...even while Drob was still on the team we started having this need..and this guy is going to be awesome in that role...he may be able to use his size to intimidate shooters better than Malik...but it's not the onesided trade the Rose haters are portraying it to be.

his desire was not to do what the coach told him to do
that is what got him in the doghouse for 2 years
if you can obey your coach you either should get traded or the coach should get canned

[whottt]

Well, that's more than your bipolar ass was willing to admit when you were pimping anonymous NYKnick fan internet postings.

Wrong, just like I have never said anything remotely close to being a Nazr hater, I am defending the legacy of Malik Rose against those who are acting like he was crap. He wasn't crap. He was never crap. As for Nazr...I am the guy that posted all those guys saying he was going to be a great o rebounder and garbage man, I was also very excited by those comments......you guys were still claiming he was a defensive shotblocking presence at that time(come to think of it, you guys are still claiming that).

[ducks]

We have needed a garbage man alongside for years...even while Drob was still on the team we started having this need..and this guy is going to be awesome in that role...he may be able to use his size to intimidate shooters better than Malik...but it's not the onesided trade the Rose haters are portraying it to be.


nazr is the garbage man now
rose is gone :fro

[exstatic]

Malik has one fault that Nazr will never have: He's 6'5".

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Oh, funny funny

[T Park]

whottt is to Nazr Mohammed

as is Brewski is to Tony Parker.

[timvp]

That's BS, TPark. I don't see Whottt saying anything but truth about Nazr. He's not the second coming. He's not the son of God.

He's a solid center who might or might not be in the rotation by the time the playoffs comes around. He's done a good job so far but isn't the perfect basketball player.

So far it was a good trade. I like Nazr and want him to succeed. But I'm not going to make him out to be Wilt Abdul Olajuwon.

[T Park]

Hmm, got a link saying me and Aggie saying hes the next Olajuwon??

I believe we just said hed be a 10 and 10 guy.

[timvp]

I don't think Hakeem could average 10 and 10 as the second bigman off the bench.

[T Park]

Of course not.

But Malik Rose could right?

[Kori Ellis]

No one said Malik could.

[Slo spurs fan]

Is this war? :lol

[Rummpd]

Listen I loved Malik as much as anyone, but the truth is Nazr's younger, taller and seemingly his upside is a lot more and he has shown flashes so far of being very good. Plus so far his attitude is right on!

Were you dissing him for his last game when he had a couple of blocks and nearly a double double? What the heck more do you want?

[Spurs košarka kultura]

^I have to agree with the doctor on this one, the guy, when he actually gets some mintues (provided he isn't comitting stupid fouls) has the desire to be quite monsterous on the boards. Yes his shot isn't that of Malik's (and as I recall this wasn't the main reason we brought him over), but hes got size and paired next to Timmy or Rasho will do some damage. That being said I know we all miss Malik's smile and hustle, but hey at least his restaurant is still in the Quarry, and Nazr did make a very charitable and spurs-like donation if I'm not mistaken. I know, I know this dosen't make him a better player, but it shows he is a classy guy and should fit in well with this organization. As for health concerns? Well lets play that one by ear, shall we?

[xcoriate]

My bad, maybe I'll start a suck ass thread trying to put myself over as Nostradmus and telling everyone what a great prognosticator I am.

Nah, prolly not, because no one really gives a fuck.

:lmao too fucking funny :)

Nah in all seriousness Nazr is not the second coming he may not even claim the starting spot. He should however be a contributer whether he starts or comes off the bench, he is a valuable assest to the team that can hopefully push both himself and Rasho past there current abilities.

[Useruser666]

Ok, first off, I never disliked Malik Rose. I loved him as a Spur and what he brought every game. I think Pop expected more from him because of how long he had been in the system here. To me, that is why he would ride the pine after a few bad games in a row.

Now why are we talking "Nazr suckz!!!" already Whottt? He played bad last night no doubt, but that was only for the ELEVEN minutes he was on the court. 4 minutes and 31 seconds of that was garbage time at the end of the fourth. I think it only makes sense to let the guy play a few games before you start chewing his ass.

[BigVee]

That's BS, TPark. I don't see Whottt saying anything but truth about Nazr. He's not the second coming. He's not the son of God.

He's a solid center who might or might not be in the rotation by the time the playoffs comes around. He's done a good job so far but isn't the perfect basketball player.

So far it was a good trade. I like Nazr and want him to succeed. But I'm not going to make him out to be Wilt Abdul Olajuwon.

Nazr has some good qualities...he is tough, a good rebounder, hustles, has a nose for the ball.....but he needs a lot of work. I look forward to his improvement after spending a summer with the staff. He will help in the playoffs, but right now he has important but limited skills

[ChumpDumper]

Did we lose?

Look, we got a guy who could start at center for half the teams in the league who looks like he's entering the prime of his career. Be happy.

The only critical fault that has been pointed out is that he isn't Malik. All this stuff about desire and Nazr not having it is pretty specious. Truth is you don't know what drives this guy. To me, it looks like his story is more similar to Malik's than some would care to acknowledge. He certainly doesn't need to apologize for playing on shitty teams before he came here.

[picnroll]

If you want to criticize the trade of Malik for Nazr because Nazr isn't the next Hakeem or an all-star that's going to be an easy argument to make. I must have missed the memo where Malik was an all-star though.

[boutons]

how many bad games did Malik have?

how many bad games did Malik have, AFTER 6 or 7 YEARS FULLY FAMILIAR WITH THE SPURS SYSTEM?

Whott's out to PROVE that the Malik-Nazr trade was a bust, a mistake. Infinite pissing threads to follow, for months, for years.

[Spurminator]

This is the most hyperbole-laden thread in the history of human communication.

[whottt]

With all due respect Spurm(I bet that is the first time in history anyone has uttered that particular expression), I am not the one engaging in excessive hyperbole.

The Nazr jockers were talking huge amounts of shit about his passing and jump shot, fouls...Guy makes one pass and they start acting like he is Stockton...the dude has a .3 career APG average...does that seem like a guy who makes a lot of passes to you? If he's making them then he definitely is a shitty passer...he can't be a good and willing passer with .3 APG average...

Even funnier they act like the Spurs are going to bring his passing ability to it's full potential...um when exactly have the Spurs shown a knack for bringing out passing ability of players?

Ditto his J...all I had to see was him make one attempt and I realized I was looking at the man with the ugliest, no touch J in history.

And a dumb fouler is a dumb fouler...you don't think any of his other coaches have asked him to not make stupid fouls? I'd be willing to be that thought had crossed their minds on more than one occasion.


The guys were claiming he could pass and he could shoot...and frankly their credibility is shot(not that TPark had credibility anyway)...Aggie is a huge disappointment...he's obviously got some brains(as evidenced by his stance on Brent Barry), but he seems to be willing to crap them out as long as he gets to hate Malik Rose in the process.

To all the Nazr jockers...You guys can't read any better than you analyze flaws in a players game...I have not exactly been critical of the trade in itself, nor have I said anything I would qualify as Nazr hate. I am taking a wait and see approach...but again I say...Malik Rose was a better player than he is being given credit for from these haters.

It's true Malik spent much of the last 2 years on the bench, due to Pop having the Horry option more than any other reason.....but it's also true that the last time he was the main back up big we won a title..and he was a big reason for that.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Nazr is not the best player to ever play the game, but he's definately better for this team than Rose.

[whottt]

This season? For the purposes of winning a title? I argue that.

I'd say he's got the potential to be better than Malik...and he's an above average bigman in some aspects...

But I seriously question the wisdom of making this trade in the middle of a title pursuit. Malik's bad games get overblown...yes he could be inconsistent...and so are 99% of the other guys who spend most of their careers on the bench...that's the main reason they are on the bench.

But Malik knew the ins and outs of this teams systems better than anyone other than Tim Duncan...there is no way Nazr is going to have a handle on things as well as Malik did....It's impossible.

If we had an injury to Rasho or any other big Malik was capable of starting, and sometimes dominating...out of Rasho, Nazr and Horry...Malik has the best rebounding game and only Horry has had a better scoring game(and that was like 30 years ago)...and how many bad starts can you guys remember by Malik? How many bad playoff games? There weren't many. I can't think of a single bad playoff game by him.

Regardless of Nazr's talents...I question the wisdom of trading a player that knew the team as well as Malik did, this late in the season.

Now we are pretty much stuck with Horry, or a player with similar flaws to Malik without all the experience with the team and in the playoffs.....and I don't know about you guys but I sure as hell hope we don't see Miami in the finals...because I don't ever want to see Horry asked to guard Shaq again.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What good does all of Malik's knowledge of the ins and outs do the Spurs if he's riding the fucking pine?

As for Shaq, I'm pretty sure we've got Massenberg, Rasho, and now Nazr around for that one.

[T Park]

Im not scared of Miami one bit.

Houston and Detroit are the only ones that scare me.

[picnroll]

Watching the Knicks - Heat game the other night Shaq was played by Sweetney, Taylor and Rose. Nobody, including Taylor, let Shaq set up as deep in the paint as Rose did. Rose had one good pull the chair that's it. The idea that Rose can play Shaq ended three years ago when Rose dropped a lot of weight to gain mobility. Nazr can do a far better job, fouls included,on Shaq or on Yao than Rose can. That's why Nazr is much beeter for the Spurs to have this year.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Thanks pnr. The Rose colored glasses people just use the "Pop didn't put Rose on him because Rose wasn't playing" bullshit to excuse the last couple of years.

[T Park]

^^^ Amen.


(waits for the impending flames from whottt, RTD, and the other malik honks)

[whottt]

Malik's numbers when he was in the game against Shaq - 8 points(2-2 FT and 3-5) shooting) 1 assist, 1TO

Shaq's numbers: 7 points, 2 TO, 2 rebounds(1-2 FT and 3-5 shooting)


Looks to me like Malik held his own...

Why don't you haters post Nazr's numbers against Mike fucking Olowokandi....I know I know, Nazr plays for a new team and Malik doesn't.

Nice try on saying Malik couldn't guard Shaq anymore...

But Malik guarded him extensively the last time we won a title.

He guarded Shaq extensively in the win at the end of the Rodeo Road Trip...and he guarded him in the playoffs...Granted, that was probably his least effective playoff performance against Shaq...but Shaq had his worst FG% and PPG avergage of the playoffs in that series...much like the previous two years...

Now last year...Shaq was going off at about 68% against us for most of that series...

IF you don't think Malik was effective against Shaq then you should be crapping your pants about how ineffective Rasho and Horry were against him.

Keep hating...it won't change the truth.

And BTW...I have read that Nazr actually does a good job against Shaq...but I'll wait and see if he does a better job than Malik...coming to a new team is not going to make it easier on him, that is for sure...

So I guess that means you guys think Rasho, Horry,..and fuck it, even Duncan(who Shaq owns in every one of the few head to head match ups between them except for game 6 of the 2003 WCSF) do a better job against Shaq than Malik.

You are wrong...66% wrong. Haters.

[T Park]

3-5 shooting

oh, malik is a defensive monster.

[picnroll]

Watch the game not the score sheet. Much of the time Malik was in the game he wasn't guarding Shaq. Couple of times it was Taylor and Rose in and Taylor was the one guarding Shaq. Does that turn any light bulbs on for you?

[whottt]

Then I guess you can't say you know for sure Malik can't guard Shaq anymore since Malik wasn't guarding him. You certainly can't say it basing it on anything you saw on this team last year...and the previous year he did as good a job as anyone does against him.

Let me guess...last night Malik was only guarding Shaq when he scored right?


Anything else you want to toss out there?

[whottt]

oh, malik is a defensive monster.

That's a lower PCT than he shot against us for the entire playoff series last year...with Horry and Rasho pulling most of the minutes against him.

So stick up that up your ass and get smarter.

[Solid D]

The one thing you've got to enjoy as a Spurs fan is the Spurs now have the ability to control the paint a higher percentage of their games. Unfortunately, shots don't change as much with Horry, Massenburg and Rose.

You guys are smart enough to know why this is true.

[whottt]

Robert Horry is a better shotblocker than Nazr Mohammed. I hope you are smart enough to know that.

[ChumpDumper]

Depending on Malik against Shaq is like depending on seat belts in a plane crash. It's a nice gesture and hell, it might even work -- but chances are you're gonna die anyway.

If we had Drob on this team we could think we'd have a chance at holding Shaq down. We don't. Rasho did a good job on Shaq last regular season. Didn't mean shit in the playoffs. You can say that Malik wouldn've been the answer last year, but it's just as easy to say Shaq would've killed him just like Malik admitted in the NY article.

[Solid D]

Robert Horry is a better shotblocker than Nazr Mohammed. I hope you are smart enough to know that.

That doesn't address the actual point.

[Solid D]

This year, even looking at blocks alone, as a factor in controlling the paint, the facts don't lie in bpg.
.74 = Horry
.80 = Nazr

So far, what I'm seeing is guys aren't getting into the paint as much with Nazr in there and he alters shots. It's especially effective when he is paired with Timmy or Rasho.

Let's face it. The Spurs hardly controlled the lane with any of these combos:
Horry and Malik
Mass and Malik
Mass and Horry

The interior defense looks pretty good right now and in longer stretches.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'd say coaches on different teams indicates to me that maybe, just maybe, some folks with more experience coaching in the league than you and I put together think that Malik can't slow down Shaq.

Just a hunch.

[Kori Ellis]

Just a note: No one does a really effective job guarding Shaq alone.

[Solid D]

The interior defense looks pretty good right now and in longer stretches.

Hahahah. I made a pun.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Lol ^^^^^^^^^

[whottt]

I'd say coaches on different teams indicates to me that maybe, just maybe, some folks with more experience coaching in the league than you and I put together think that Malik can't slow down Shaq.

Just a hunch.


BWHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I get AHF, the king of all coachbashers, to sound like TPark when he's under the desk in Pop's office, I can claim total everlasting scoreboard. Aggie, you sir have kicked your own ass..........

AHF and TPark...why don't you guys grab some pine like the scrubs you are...

In case you have noticed, I am playing some Solid D on the PicNRoll of two of the most levelheaded and fundamentally sound posters on the forum...

You two don't have a chance so please take a seat and let the MVP candidates duke it out...well, I should say...let two of the candidates get the pimpslapping they've got coming for being on the wrong side of Malik Rose...and the let the true MVP strut his stuff.

[Solid D]

More like a night on the town at Phil 'n Busters.

jk

[whottt]

This year, even looking at blocks alone, as a factor in controlling the paint, the facts don't lie in bpg.
.74 = Horry
.80 = Nazr


Hey, I'll give you that Nazr is blocking shots better this year...forget what he is doing with the Spurs...overall he's blocking nearly a shot per game...

But what you overlook is blocks to PF ratio...and Nazr is awful in that category...yes he gets .24 more blocks per game, he also picks up nearly a foul more per game.


So far, what I'm seeing is guys aren't getting into the paint as much with Nazr in there and he alters shots. It's especially effective when he is paired with Timmy or Rasho.

I bet if you asked Duncan he'd give you a different answer...Robert Horry is 10 times the defensive player Nazr Mohammed is, even at this stage...ask Duncan. And it's not like Horry is a midget...he's 6'10...just like Mohammed.


Let's face it. The Spurs hardly controlled the lane with any of these combos:
Horry and Malik
Mass and Malik
Mass and Horry

The interior defense looks pretty good right now and in longer stretches.

All this because of Nazr Mohammed?

I think it's got more to do with Rasho's inspired play since the trade. He's the guy that's been anchoring our D lately.

Shaq aside, Horry looks good some nights...other nights he doesn't...but he's been that way his entire career...he's also d'ed up on Tim Duncan better than anyone IMO.

Nazr? I haven't see him do anything I'd qualify as actually playing D...I've seen him pick up fouls and be big...I expect it to improve...that is something the Spurs will do...but I don't know if he's going to play good enough D to get past Rasho...especially with Rasho trying.

But if we are talking defense, bwteen Nazr and Horry, for this year I'd still prefer Horry(unless we are talking about Shaq, then I think I'd rather have anyone, including Earl Boykins)...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Whott, your whole problem is the only one who is saying that you are right is yourself (well, at least until LJ comes along).

The other problem is this stupid ass straw man argument you've got going on. No one has proclaimed Nazr the next Wilt, except for you.

What we have done is say that Nazr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rose, and you don't have a leg to stand on (outside of your cute little NY Knick bulletin board bullshit).

* Nazr rebounds better than Rose

* Nazr blocks more shots/is more of a shot blocking threat to opponents than Rose

* Nazr doesn't suffocate the Spurs offense and kill the ball movement like Rose did

* Nazr gets his points on the offensive glass, not by taking jump shots or trying to go one on the other team's entire front line and get his shit stuffed

* simply put, Nazr is much taller and a legitimate NBA center (and plays like it)

* the Spurs don't lose any interior presence with Nazr on the court, you can't say the same for Rose - simply put, teams didn't look inside and say "oh shit, Rose is in there, I better not try and take it inside, I've got a good chance of getting blocked. Can't say the same for Nazr." Nazr already has four times as many blocks here with SA as Rose has up in NY, again with more playing time for Rose.

* Forget the stats for a minute, I haven't seen anyone go over Nazr's back for a rebound since he got here, it happened all the time to Malik

Here's another kicker: Rose is getting the PT he didn't get here up in NY, and Nazr still has better numbers in less minutes.

Nazr is already a better interior presence and player than Malik ever was or ever will be. And once his game is further developed courtesy the Spurs coaching staff, there will not be a comparison. NOTE: I am not saying he is going to be Kareem, or Wilt, or Dave in his prime, just that our interior game will be significantly stronger with Nazr than it could ever be with Rose.

Spare me the whole varsity/MVP rhetoric, when the only league you're capable of playing in regarding this discussion is Pop Warner.

[Solid D]

A blocks to PF ratio? Are you keeping a straight face?

I like Robert Horry and the little things he does so let's not detract from the point.

The Spurs have given themselves a better ability to control the paint by adding Nazr.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

But what you overlook is blocks to PF ratio..

:lmao Yeah, that's how they measure all the great ones. Holy shit, talking about reaching for a stat to try and justify your position.

:lmao

"He's got a great block to foul ratio, he's going to the Hall." :lmao

tell you what, I'll give you that dumbass blocks/PF ratio. Nazr's is still four times higher than Rose's is.

:lmao

Someone call Upper Deck, they need to add a new stat to the back of the cards. :lol

Recount the MVP ballots, the voters aren't factoring in blocks/PFs. :lmao

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I just did some checking whott, Rose has also got a better turnovers per technical foul call average than Nazr, so I guess you got me - Rose is definitely better than Nazr. :lol

[Solid D]

:lol Too funny.

[whottt]

Oh oh, I got a couple of laughing boys here...

It just so happens that blocks to PF ratio is a tracked stat and they have it at ESPN as well as other stat sites.

If you guys were on the cutting edge of statistical analysis like myself you probably wouldn't be getting embarrassed in this argument like you now are.

Solid D...I am very disappointed in you. I generally have had respect for your statistical knowledge and classified you as a reputable stathead...Obviously I was over-rating you.

AHF OTOH...he's a graduate of A&M so any field of mathematics requiring more knowledge than 0+0 or requiring you to use your toes probably kicks his ass and will continue to do so.

Take a mental leap...figure out that anyone can try and block shots...not everyone can do it without picking up beaucoup fouls, hence...a shotblocker...I think that has got something to do with why Nazr doesn't consider himself to be a shotblocker.

AHF, I'll be back in a bit to clean up that large mess you puked onto my thread...but for now let's just say...you are right on one thing...Nazr is a better shotblocker than Malik.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Seriously, show me the relevance of shot blocks/PF pertaining to winning oh I don't know, the last 10 NBA championships, and I'm listening.

Until then it's just some obscure stat that you are clinging to in order to sound anything less than a complete idiot on this subject.

I enjoy the Aggie dig, I guess it's all you have to hang your hat on (outside that block/PF ratio, I mean).

[Solid D]

I've got to go to bed, Whottt. It's been fun for a while but until another day....be careful. I don't want you to get separation anxiety from reality.

[T Park]

^^^

No shit.


Whottt has yet to post a coherent post how Malik is better other than

Aggie is like T Park under pop's desk blah blah blah.


Id say Aggie has won the arguement since Whottt is lowering himself to such childish BS.


Props Aggie.

As always you make the most sense of anyone.

[Iron Giant]

The question of who is better, statistically or otherwise, is, was, and will continue to be moot. Anyone unaware of Pop's flagging confidence in Malik over the past few years hasn't got the benefit of a brain. The choice here wasn't between Nazr and Rose, it was between a player who'd lost his coach's confidence and one who might actually get the chance to play. Whatever else might be true of Pop, his opinions don't seem to change. Nazr, I think, is about as good as we were going to get in trade for someone so obviously out of favor....

[picnroll]

Hey, I'll give you that Nazr is blocking shots better this year...forget what he is doing with the Spurs...overall he's blocking nearly a shot per game...

But what you overlook is blocks to PF ratio...and Nazr is awful in that category...yes he gets .24 more blocks per game, he also picks up nearly a foul more per game.

One small problem. Malik's per 48 minute fouls is higher than Nazr's.

[Useruser666]

I think any conversation about who is better or how Nazr has played so far can not be taken too seriously considered how few games he has played for the Spurs. Then add to that the fact that he was slightly injured during the first games and may still be feeling those effects.

[ChumpDumper]

But what you overlook is blocks to PF ratio...and Nazr is awful in that category.But Nazr's ratio is 4 times better than Malik's. What's your point?

He's in the top 50 in every block category that actually matters, and he blocks shots at a higher rate than Kevin Garnett. It really doesn't matter how many angels are dancing on the head of your pin (or your pinhead, whatever), Nazr is going to block some shots for this team.

[whottt]

Attenttion: All future posters in this thread. If you feel inclined to engage in the shotblocking/PF percentage sidebar debate between whottt and Solid D, please take note of the fact that debate was about Horry vs Nazr, not Malik Rose vs Nazr, lest you come off looking stupid like the last 2 or 3 posters.

Witness the following quote by whottt in response to the first attempt to change the subject by the Rose haters :
but for now let's just say...you are right on one thing...Nazr is a better shotblocker than Malik.


Now that you Einsteins have given us a fine example of your observational powers....anything else you'd like to add on the irrelevant, redundant, pointless and totally uncontested subject of Malik Rose's shotblocking vs Nazr's?

I don't think that horse is quite dead enough yet....so by all means keep beating.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How is Malik Rose's shotblocking vs Nazr's UNCONTESTED, from what I've seen in the past month that isn't quite true is it lol. Just giving the horse its last rites hehehe.

OH LOOK, ITS MOVING!!! *THUMP*

http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/p-15875.jpg

[Useruser666]

This year, even looking at blocks alone, as a factor in controlling the paint, the facts don't lie in bpg.
.74 = Horry
.80 = Nazr

So far, what I'm seeing is guys aren't getting into the paint as much with Nazr in there and he alters shots. It's especially effective when he is paired with Timmy or Rasho.

Let's face it. The Spurs hardly controlled the lane with any of these combos:
Horry and Malik
Mass and Malik
Mass and Horry

The interior defense looks pretty good right now and in longer stretches.

Blocks? Statistics?

Rose averages:

.18 bpg with San Antonio for 50 games at 17.2 mpg

.29 bpg with NY for 7 games at 17.3 mpg

Horry averages:

.74 bpg with SA for 57 games at 16.4 mpg

Nazr averages:

.97 bpg with NY for 59 games at 26.9 mpg

.80 bpg with SA for 5 games at 14.0 mpg

Now let me ask if any of the following statements are generally accepted.

(1) Malik Rose is not a shot blocker.

(2) Nazr has not played many games with the Spurs this year.

(3) Nazr averages more bpg than either Horry or Rose, both when he played with the Knicks and for the 5 games he has played so far as a Spur.

I think it's interesting to note that even though Nazr's minutes have dropped from 26.9 as a Knick to 14.0 as a Spur his bpg average has only gone from .97 to .80. I will conceed that his Spur's average is a weak number to base from the limited number of games he has played, but it is encouraging to me that he has much room to grow.

[whottt]

Whott, your whole problem is the only one who is saying that you are right is yourself (well, at least until LJ comes along).

So? What does that have to do with who is right and who is wrong?


The other problem is this stupid ass straw man argument you've got going on. No one has proclaimed Nazr the next Wilt, except for you.

"Nazr can shoot, didn't you see that 17 foot jumper he made", "Nazr can pass, didn't you see that pass he made to Duncan".



What we have done is say that Nazr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rose, and you don't have a leg to stand on (outside of your cute little NY Knick bulletin board bullshit).

I most definitely have a leg to stand on...

First of all...whose team is doing better since the trade? A lottery team traded "the greatest Center in history" and is now playing their best basketball of the season...While the Spurs have been dropping home games to 8 seeds.

Secondly...

Nazr has been dumped by lottery teams whose greatest need is a true C...Nazr has had trouble getting off the bench on teams that were the worst in the NBA...

Malik Rose has been backing up a pair of HOFers and his services were valued so greatly, prior to the addition of Robert Horry...that the Spurs were willing to grossly overpay him.

Even now, you guys can cite all the weak talent aspects you want...but it's undeniable that the Spurs were helped financially by this trade...so there is plenty of justification to make the claim that this trade wasn't in the best interests of winning a title, or done purely to gain talent.

Only a Malik Rose hater would try to claim that without being honest about Nazr's flaws...hater.



* Nazr rebounds better than Rose

I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline...

Nazr also hasn't spent the bulk of his career backing up a pair of HOF'ers...he's been backing up scrub C's on lottery teams(and doing it badly and getting traded from those teams).


* Nazr blocks more shots/is more of a shot blocking threat to opponents than Rose

Good...his career shotblocking totals aren't as superior to Malik's as they should be considering his height advantage.


* Nazr doesn't suffocate the Spurs offense and kill the ball movement like Rose did

Damn did you just fart? Oh wait...that was you talking out of your ass, my bad.


* Nazr gets his points on the offensive glass, not by taking jump shots or trying to go one on the other team's entire front line and get his shit stuffed

Hey, I like Nazr's ability to get putbacks...but so far that's the only ability he's shown.

He does however get his shit stuffed, and does seem to be inclined to try and take on the opposing teams entire frontline...Malik's excuse for sucking when trying those things was that he was short...what's Nazr's?

Argue this point all you want but Nazr's is averaging .3 assists per game for his career...and he's been a starter...and been the best post player on some teams...


* simply put, Nazr is much taller and a legitimate NBA center (and plays like it)

I'll agree that you put it simply...I'll disagree that you put it accurately.


* the Spurs don't lose any interior presence with Nazr on the court, you can't say the same for Rose - simply put, teams didn't look inside and say "oh shit, Rose is in there, I better not try and take it inside, I've got a good chance of getting blocked. Can't say the same for Nazr." Nazr already has four times as many blocks here with SA as Rose has up in NY, again with more playing time for Rose.

That's crap...teams don't look inside and say "Oh shit, Shawn Bradley is in there". Height does not a Center make...Malil has been beating out taller guys his entire career...Can Nazr make that claim?

And Malik's bad team is doing better since he got there and Nazr's good team isn't.



* Forget the stats for a minute, I haven't seen anyone go over Nazr's back for a rebound since he got here, it happened all the time to Malik

That's because you are drunk on Malik hate...you need to go back and watch the last two games...




Here's another kicker: Rose is getting the PT he didn't get here up in NY, and Nazr still has better numbers in less minutes.

Malik is playing .1 more minute per game for the Knicks than he was in SA....some of Nazr's numbers are better than Malik's...and some of them aren't.




NOTE: I am not saying he is going to be Kareem, or Wilt, or Dave in his prime, just that our interior game will be significantly stronger with Nazr than it could ever be with Rose.

Right...you haven't said he is the next Kareem or Wilt..you are just saying he has no weaknesses in his game...none....you even attempt to deny the flaws which have been on bigtime display...which means you are claiming he is like unto Kareem or Hakeem...

This is what TimVP and myself have been saying...to anyone with an ounce of objectivity I think it's pretty obvious who is being objective and who is hating.

[whottt]

Seriously, show me the relevance of shot blocks/PF pertaining to winning oh I don't know, the last 10 NBA championships, and I'm listening.

Show me the relevance of Nazr Mohammed to the last 10 NBA championships...


Until then it's just some obscure stat that you are clinging to in order to sound anything less than a complete idiot on this subject.

No it's not...it's an indepth stat used to judge fine differences between shotblockers with similar BPG and total blocks averages...A photo finish if you will...

In this case the differences in the close totals and averages of Robert Horry and Mohammed Nazr.




I enjoy the Aggie dig, I guess it's all you have to hang your hat on (outside that block/PF ratio, I mean).


LMAO, you want to know something funny? I am full of shit on every thing but the Aggie dig. I was serious about that...

It's good that you have learned to laugh at yourself though :)

[Useruser666]

Damn, what a blabber mouth! :lol

[Mark in Austin]

I most definitely have a leg to stand on...

First of all...whose team is doing better since the trade? A lottery team traded "the greatest Center in history" and is now playing their best basketball of the season...While the Spurs have been dropping home games to 8 seeds.


You have to be kidding me. You claim legitimacy, and then back it up with the assertion that Rose is the better player because the Knicks are playing better than the Spurs since the trade??? In case you were too busy typing to check out a game or ten, Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili - not to mention Nazr - have all missed games to injury during the span of games you use for comparison. WTF kind of "MVP Candidate" advances a take this weak?

Oh, yeah. A self-proclaimed one.

[Solid D]

LMAO, you want to know something funny? I am full of **** on every thing but the Aggie dig. I was serious about that...

It's good that you have learned to laugh at yourself though :)

The defense rests.

[Useruser666]

Everything you say can and WILL be used against you!

[whottt]

You have to be kidding me. You claim legitimacy, and then back it up with the assertion that Rose is the better player because the Knicks are playing better than the Spurs since the trade???

It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?

When he was healthy they still sucked badly...they have gone on their longest winning streaks of the season without him....

Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Who is adapting to their team faster?

Which team has improved the most since the trade?







Hello? Injuries to Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili? (Not to mention Nazr)


I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point....Malik was won 6 games without Duncan in the lineup...


PSST...it's also a bad idea to jock ride a player who forces you to use his injuries as one of his positive aspects...

It's not Malik's fault he's not injury prone and Nazr is.


Injuries = bad, not good.




WTF kind of "MVP Candidate" advances a take this weak?

Oh, yeah. A self-proclaimed one.

I bet you are popular at parties.

[whottt]

The defense rests.


And the defenses loses...

[ChumpDumper]

they have gone on their longest winning streaks of the season without him.... Three games ties a streak with Nazr, and the lates streak had one game w/o Malik.
Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?Spurs are a much better team.
Who is adapting to their team faster?Who was injured? Which team actually has a defensive scheme?
Which team has improved the most since the trade? Record-wise? #1 is still #1. How much improvement were you expecting? If KThomas, Crawford and Marbury were injured during this time, you might have a point.

[Useruser666]

I wish I had one of those "telestrator" things and could write directly on the forum itself! "lol


It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?

Every dog has it's day. The Knicks can only lose one game a day. Nazr was still hurt when he was on the Knicks. When you trade a hurt player for a healthy one you might just get a change in overall performance. There was also several other additions to the Knicks that have just as much a reason for their recent improvement.


Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Nazr was hurt when he came here. Pop elected not to play him his first two eligable games here. Rose was not hurt and could play right away. It's funny that you mention minutes at all. If Malik is such a great player, shouldn't he get tons more minutes for such a bad team as NY? How come his minutes haven't increased greatly in NY? Nazr shouldn't get tons of minutes because he is playing behind Tim Duncan. He can slowly be brought into the system and doesn't need to be rushed.



Which team has improved the most since the trade?

Where was SA's record going to go? Where was NY's record going to go? What team just lost it's best two players during the stretch of games you mentioned?



I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point

Again, you yourself point out that the Spurs have Duncan and don't need to give Nazr tons of minutes. If Pop can DNP Malik for games on and off, I think it's understandable that Nazr plays only a few minutes to get accustomed to things.

I don't think anyone has been hating on Malik here. People are just excited about seeing what Nazr can do. I think he'll be just fine and perform pretty well. This isn't like Laker fans talking about how Brian Grant will replace Shaq.

[ChumpDumper]

I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline.Malik's rebounding rate has gone down quite a bit. Nazr's has increased slightly. I await further hair-splitting on your definition of rebound totals or perhaps a new rebounds/crushed-paper-cup-during-timeouts ratio that will be so stunning in its relevance no one will have used it in the press or scouting reports or player profiles all year.

Malik was a good player for the Spurs. Nazr can be a good player for the Spurs.

[whottt]

Three games ties a streak with Nazr,

Which still qualifies it as their longest streak of the season, they also were on their longest home winning streak of the season...I'd also point out that their only losses since Malik joined the team were to teams that have also beaten the Spurs.



and the lates streak had one game w/o Malik.

I'll get back to this point later in this post when I shove your double standard and hypochracy up you butt.



Spurs are a much better team.

As ass says what?



Who was injured?
I see...and can you tell me the last guy who helped a team win a game by being injured?

Other than Chris Webber injuries are a negative.



Which team actually has a defensive scheme?
Knicks have had their best defensive performances of the season since Malik joined their team. If you don't think the Knicks D is greatly improved the past month then you don't know basketball so let's just drop this here and now...I'm not going to bang my head against your wall of stupid...er density.



Record-wise? #1 is still #1.

So let me get this straight...A single Knick game won without Malik is worth noting...but Nazr gets credit for an entire seasons worth of games?




How much improvement were you expecting?
How about the non negative kind?

Better yet...how about our winning PCT in the same number of games be better than that of the freaking Knicks since the trade? Is that too much fucking ask?


If KThomas, Crawford and Marbury were injured during this time, you might have a point.

Well...if I had still had any doubts about whether or not you are a fucking dumbass the fact that you equate Thomas, Crawford and Marbury with Parker, Duncan and Manu pretty muich gets rid of them.

But since you have crapped that pile of stupidity into this debate...

Ehy don't you tell us what the Knicks winning PCT was when all those guys and Nazr were healthy...then tell us what it is now without Nazr and with Malik?

[Mark in Austin]

It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?...
Who is adapting to their team faster?

Which team has improved the most since the trade?


I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point....Malik was won 6 games without Duncan in the lineup...


Thank you for reminding us all that Duncan is not a Knick. What does that have to do with anything? You say the Knicks are playing better with Rose that the Spurs are with Nazr, therefore Malik > Nazr. First, that is a silly comparison to make. New York's starting unit has remained relatively intact otherwise, whereas the Spurs three best players have all missed games since the trade. Aside from Malik and Nazr being variables, both teams would have to stay the same as they were before the trade for your assertion to be valid. Other key Spurs have missed time, therfore, the Spurs record is not solely attributable to Nazr's performances. (And the Knick's record is not solely as a result of Malik for that matter. The Knicks did make other trades that day.) Your reasoning just doesn't add up when you look at all of the data, not just the data convenient to your argument.

As far as the supposed fact that the Knicks are somehow outperforming the Spurs since the trade:

New York is 4-3 since the trade in games that Malik has played in. San Antonio is 4-1 in games which Mohammed played, despite the fact that injuries have slowed their ability to get court time together and gel as a unit.


Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Perhaps because San Antonio's offensive and defensive schemes are much more complicated than New York's, and there is a steeper learning curve with the Spurs, especially on defense. If you can't play the defense, you don't get many minutes here. Malik has benefitted from playing Spurs defense for years, and that defensive focus gets you minutes. And it has, to an extent, rubbed off on some of the other Knicks.

Also, and more obviously, Nazr was injured or recovering from injury for many of the games since the trade. Of course he played less minutes. This isn't some secret - the Spurs acknowledged that they would bring him along slowly to minimize the risk of re-aggravating it. AND despite their caution, that's what wound up happening.

[whottt]

Malik's rebounding rate has gone down quite a bit. Nazr's has increased slightly. I await further hair-splitting on your definition of rebound totals or perhaps a new rebounds/crushed-paper-cup-during-timeouts ratio that will be so stunning in its relevance no one will have used it in the press or scouting reports or player profiles all year.


Hair splitting? You have the fucking balls to call me a hair splitter? Get fucking outta town. What fucking audacity. That is all you do! Geezus!

The difference is in their offensive rebounding and if you weren't an idiot, and could read, you'd see that I have generally praised Nazr's offensive rebounding.


Malik was a good player for the Spurs. Nazr can be a good player for the Spurs.

So tell me something I haven't already said...

But when? If you don't think Malik was an asset that could aid in winning a title then you are fucking stupid and not much of a Spurfans...if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...

Malik would have helped if played...Nazr might...We traded a would have for a might...I don't think that increased our chances of winning a title this season.

[Mark in Austin]

Oh, and to use Whottt's selective use of facts:

Nazr > Wilt. Because dead guys can't rebound. How many points, rebounds, blocks, hell even minutes has Wilt had since the trade?

Zero, motherfuckers. Therefore Nazr > Wilt.

[Useruser666]

I will say this again. Nazr has only played 5 games so far. No real comparrisson or evaluation can be made yet.

[ChumpDumper]

The difference is in their offensive rebounding and if you weren't an idiot, and could read, you'd see thatThat's not what you wrote. If you weren't an idiot, you'd know that.
But when? If you don't think Malik was an asset that could aid in winning a title then you are fucking stupidHe could've been, Nazr can be.
if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...as are you when you guess Malik is automatically the better choice.
Malik would have helped if played.Guessing. Hypocrite. Malik even admits he did nothing against Shaq one year and that's all you've really tried hanging your hat on. We traded one might for another.

[Mark in Austin]

if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...

As are you when you postulate that Malik's rebounding numbers will go up and Nazr's will go down:
I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline...

[whottt]

a big lameass injury excuse

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a title...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.

[FromWayDowntown]

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a title...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.

If you're "[holding] Nazr accountable for those losses," you can only be talking about 1 loss where Nazr didn't play because of injury -- the Phoenix loss, in which, as you know, neither of the Spurs two all-stars played. The only other loss since Nazr has actually suited up was the Denver game, in which Nazr actually played.

It's pure conjecture on your part that a healthy Malik Rose would have somehow changed the outcome of that single game and altered the race for HCA. Prove your premise somehow (with something other than your own speculation) and I'll begin to buy your argument. Until then, you're just guessing.

Come on, whottt -- you can't blast someone's conjecture and then turn to your own guesses to explain why they're wrong.

[Mark in Austin]

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a title...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.


Malik not being injured does not necessarily mean that:

1. He would have played significant minutes. It is just as likely, if not moreso, that Malik would make one or a series of bonehead plays and Pop would pull his ass for the rest if the game.

2. If he did play significant minutes, the Spurs would win.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey Whottt, seriously though, you thinking about starting a book? 'cause those last post of yours should be enough for the first 3 chapters. LOL

[timvp]

Whotttt is going a little overboard now. I'm going to have to step away from my support of his cause. :)

What is also bothersome is that I told Whottt that if the Spurs re-signed Robert Horry this summer, that would mean that Rose was going to be traded or sent to the dog house. Whottt told me I was crazy and that Horry and Rose could work together. It came down to Horry vs. Rose for the Spurs and at the last second (after not contacting him or his agent all summer), the Spurs decided to go with Horry.

Only time will tell if they made the right choice.

[ducks]

I think we should use this thread tonight for the nazr thread

[Mark in Austin]

a big lameass injury excuse



Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a title...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.


When did I ever use the phrase A big, lameass injury excuse, and in whattt context?

[whottt]

Whotttt is going a little overboard now. I'm going to have to step away from my support of his cause. :)

Overboard in what way? Explain.

As for you stepping away...you usually do :)

Hmmm....maybe the best way for me to get you to realize how over-rated AJ was is to beome an AJ fan :)




What is also bothersome is that I told Whottt that if the Spurs re-signed Robert Horry this summer, that would mean that Rose was going to be traded or sent to the dog house. Whottt told me I was crazy and that Horry and Rose could work together. It came down to Horry vs. Rose for the Spurs and at the last second (after not contacting him or his agent all summer), the Spurs decided to go with Horry.

Only time will tell if they made the right choice.


You never told me that...although I do admit to sending you a PM, after the trade, saying I finally figured out why you didn't like Horry, when I never could before....

As for their ability to play together...We were off to the best start in team history when they were both getting PT.

Just because Pop couldn't handle the talent doesn't mean they couldn't play well together...Again, we got off to the best start in team history.

FWIW...Horry was the best choice to come off the bench on most nights, he probably couldn't put up Malik's raw numbers, but he's just about the smartest player in the NBA and it shows when he is on the court.

[whottt]

That's not what you wrote. If you weren't an idiot, you'd know that.

Actually idiot, I wrote this:



Anyone with a brain can see Mohammed's oboards and putbacks are going to be great for this team, and his size may help intimidate inside scorers....

And this:


We have needed a garbage man alongside for years...even while Drob was still on the team we started having this need..and this guy is going to be awesome in that role...

And this:


I am the guy that posted all those guys saying he was going to be a great o rebounder and garbage man, I was also very excited by those comments.

I've said it ad nauseum...Now just because your brain takes smart things and turns them stupid is no reason to go around attributing them to me...I know, I know...the dense fog that prevents you from acknowledging what has happened in previous years and previous games also fucks you up when it comes to remembering posts from earlier in this thread. Again, your problem, not mine.




He could've been, Nazr can be.as are you when you guess Malik is automatically the better choice.Guessing.

Not guessing...We have two titles with Malik...We know we can win a title with him as the main back up big...we don't know it can happen with Mohammed.

It is speculation.



Malik even admits he did nothing against Shaq one year and that's all you've really tried hanging your hat on. We traded one might for another.

No, I am hanging my hat on 8 years of experience and two titles with this fucking team. That's what I am hanging my hat on.

And it's substantially more than anything you are hanging yours on.

[whottt]

As are you when you postulate that Malik's rebounding numbers will go up and Nazr's will go down:

Sure...I am speculating...on who is going to be have an improvement in rebounding...

The Spurs gambled on a title run...One is a meaningless gamble done by a guy on a message board and the other one is substantially greater.

BTW, the reason I think Nazr's rebounding numbers will go down on this team...

His strength is offensive rebounding...The Spurs shoot at one of the highest PCT's in the NBA...that means fewer offensive rebounding opportunities. I don't think it's a huge diss of Nazr to make that claim.

He got many of his points from cleaning up after the 390% FG% of Crawford and the 410% FG% of Marbury...

Our guards are shooting near 50%. Doesn't take a genius to figure out Nazr will have fewer Oboard opportunities...and that's without taking into account that there's a guy named Tim Duncan on this team that does a pretty good job of the O glass.

Speculation yes, which is why I said "I think"...but speculation with merit.

[ChumpDumper]

You wrote this:
I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline.I merely showed how that hasn't been the case so far. Want to take it back?
We know we can win a title with him as the main back up big.And we know we cen get damn near swept doing the same. And no DRob now, who was the main reason Malik even had a chance against a guy like Shaq. Speculation.

[whottt]

If you're "[holding] Nazr accountable for those losses," you can only be talking about 1 loss where Nazr didn't play because of injury -- the Phoenix loss, in which, as you know, neither of the Spurs two all-stars played. The only other loss since Nazr has actually suited up was the Denver game, in which Nazr actually played.

No, I hold Nazr accountable for any game he didn't play in that Malik could have.




It's pure conjecture on your part that a healthy Malik Rose would have somehow changed the outcome of that single game and altered the race for HCA. Prove your premise somehow (with something other than your own speculation) and I'll begin to buy your argument. Until then, you're just guessing.

Ok...go take a look at the numbers Malik has put up against Phoenix...


Come on, whottt -- you can't blast someone's conjecture and then turn to your own guesses to explain why they're wrong.


I can say that breaking in a new guy in place of an 8 year team veteran who has won two titles on this team can slow the momentum of a team and hurt it's performance...I don't think it's a huge reach to make that claim...I think it's common sense. And then there's the chemistry issue...

And I can find lots of quotes by Spurs players and Pop saying it affected their chemistry.

The only reason you don't agree with that is if you simply don't like Malik's game or don't appreciate anything he brought to the team.

[whottt]

You wrote this:I merely showed how that hasn't been the case so far.

I do expect Nazr's totals to go down and Malik's to go up...I am well aware of the current status, since it existed before I made that claim and I don't wish to change that claim. It's my claim and I will take ownership of it...this is not the stupid minutes thing...This is my claim. And as we speak it's only partially wrong...Nazr's totals are substantially lower...Malik's are only slightly lower. It's really not a diss on Nazr or an attempt to overhype Malik...but I can see why the mentally deficient such as yourself would get confused.




And we know we cen get damn near swept doing the same.

Actually, we know we can get swept with him as the main back up big(see 2001) but that's kind of an ignorant point...we also know we can get swept with Tim Duncan.

The fact remains...Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Nazr 0 rings.

We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Nazr. And no matter how stupid you are...that fact will not change.



And no DRob now, who was the main reason Malik even had a chance against a guy like Shaq. Speculation.

See the 2002 playoffs when DRob could barely walk and Malik pulled the most minutes against Shaq. Shaq was held to his playoff lows and we had a better showing against LA than we did in 2001.

I don't know why the fuck you guys are trying to make this point...Malik defends Shaq better than Rasho or Horry. I am sorry if you weren't a Spurfan prior to last year...anyone who was would know I speak the truth.

[ChumpDumper]

This is my claim. And as we speak it's only partially wrong...Nazr's totals are substantially lower...Malik's are only slightly lower.No, Malik's are substantially lower. How is getting 1.2 rebounds per game less in the same amount of time "slightly" lower? No I expect you to follow through with your pussy definition of totals and your new math on how a dropoff of over 25% per game is "slight."

You will not disappoint.

Nazr's rebounding rate is up slightly. Malik's is down 25%. Which really tells you what is happening?

[ChumpDumper]

See the 2002....See three years ago?

30 pounds ago?
Malik defends Shaq better than Rasho or Horry. Only if he can. I don't know why the fuck you are trying to make the point that it's a stone lock that he did it every time.

[whottt]

Thank you for reminding us all that Duncan is not a Knick. What does that have to do with anything? You say the Knicks are playing better with Rose that the Spurs are with Nazr, therefore Malik > Nazr.


The Knicks have shown tremendous improvement since Malik joined their team...the Spurs have taken a step backwards...





First, that is a silly comparison to make. New York's starting unit has remained relatively intact otherwise, whereas the Spurs three best players have all missed games since the trade. Aside from Malik and Nazr being variables, both teams would have to stay the same as they were before the trade for your assertion to be valid.


Um...ok...look at it this way then...The Knicks are 4-3 since Malik joined their team...what were they with Mohammed?




Other key Spurs have missed time, therfore, the Spurs record is not solely attributable to Nazr's performances. (And the Knick's record is not solely as a result of Malik for that matter. The Knicks did make other trades that day.) Your reasoning just doesn't add up when you look at all of the data, not just the data convenient to your argument.


Yeah...the Knicks did make other trades...I belive most of the posters arguing with me now were talking about what an idiot Isiah was and how those trades wouldn improve that team...

I don't see anyone arguing that any more.




As far as the supposed fact that the Knicks are somehow outperforming the Spurs since the trade:

New York is 4-3 since the trade in games that Malik has played in. San Antonio is 4-1 in games which Mohammed played, despite the fact that injuries have slowed their ability to get court time together and gel as a unit.


The fact we can even legitmately compare the recent records of the Knicks and Spurs without laughing hysterically should give you plenty reason to question this trade...I am not trying to claim the Knicks are a better team.




Perhaps because San Antonio's offensive and defensive schemes are much more complicated than New York's, and there is a steeper learning curve with the Spurs, especially on defense. If you can't play the defense, you don't get many minutes here. Malik has benefitted from playing Spurs defense for years, and that defensive focus gets you minutes. And it has, to an extent, rubbed off on some of the other Knicks.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Malil has helped the Knicks more than Mohammed has helped the Spurs.

I realize the Spurs don't have much room for improvment...but why did the Knicks suck so bad with Mohammed the great?


Also, and more obviously, Nazr was injured or recovering from injury for many of the games since the trade. Of course he played less minutes. This isn't some secret - the Spurs acknowledged that they would bring him along slowly to minimize the risk of re-aggravating it. AND despite their caution, that's what wound up happening.

And it eroded our bench depth....no matter how you look at it, that trade encouraged our recent spate of losses...it certainly wasn't a deterrent.

[whottt]

See three years ago?

30 pounds ago?

Malik had already dropped most of that weight the last time we won a title.



Only if he can. I don't know why the fuck you are trying to make the point that it's a stone lock that he did it every time.

Shaq never shot 66% against us for a playoff series when Malik was part of the rotation...whether Drob could walk or not.

So either you need to come clean and admit Malik was not total dogshit...or we need to go and sign Mark Bryant post fucking haste.

[ChumpDumper]

Link?

Fuck you, you lying piece of shit. You always do this. Get owned on something like saying Malik's rebounding is up and then resort to lying. Show me the fucking link you idiot. Give me the quote and the link right now.

[whottt]

Link to what leadhead?

And I really get sick of being called a liar by you, mainly becuase I'm not one. It's pretty much your usual bailout when you are getting your own words shoved up your ass.

Like I said...it's not my fault you are stupid.

[ducks]

.the Spurs have taken a step backwards...

HOW?
they have lost some games since the trade but that usually happens when 2 of your big 3 are out games
and of those 3 is a mvp canidate every year

[ChumpDumper]

You have officially been called out. If you don't get that, just consider yourself owned and be done with it. Show me my own words. You just had Malik's improved rebounding shoved up your ass. Fuck your lying self.

[whottt]

Um stupid...if you will reread the thread you will see that I said I expect to see Malik's rebounding totals go up and Nazr's go down, I said this last night or today......the introduction of "rate" was all your own...

This is a classic case of you interpreting and attributing...

As I said earlier...it wasn't a diss of Nazr or hyping of Malik...it has everything to do with the situations of those teams....it's simply what I think will happen.

So no, fuck you. Either repond to my actual statments or get fucked...stop attributing things to me and expecting me to defend it you dumb fucking cunt.

[ChumpDumper]

Malik's are only slightly lower.Owned.

[ChumpDumper]

Now produce my "Malik was total dogshit" quote.

When you can't, apologize.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So, the Spurs, with some combination of Tim, Manu, and Tony sitting out for a good five games now, have taken a step back while the healthy Knicks have progressed? :lol


I most definitely have a leg to stand on...

First of all...whose team is doing better since the trade? A lottery team traded "the greatest Center in history" and is now playing their best basketball of the season...While the Spurs have been dropping home games to 8 seeds.


Tell you what Whott. You take the Knicks and Rose, I'll take the Spurs and Nazr, let's talk in June.

Have a nice day.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

By the way, in 16 minutes tonight for NY, Malik had 4 points and 2 rebounds.

Nazr's got 4 and 3 in half the minutes so far.

Next.

[whottt]

.the Spurs have taken a step backwards...

HOW?
they have lost some games since the trade but that usually happens when 2 of your big 3 are out games
and of those 3 is a mvp canidate every year


Duncan and Parker were injured at the beinning of last season for mulitple games...what was our record then?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Was that Ginobili fella playing then? Oh yeah, he was. STFU.

[ducks]

I do not rember what the record was
but nazr could step up without duncan and parker
especially if he played against the likes of duncan and david for 6 years first
going against the best makes you improve in practice
rasho went off when duncan was hurt before
it was a TOTAL team effort not just rose

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

whott,

Did your dad ever give you the advice "quit while you're behind"?

This is one of those times, you need to quit.

[whottt]

Now produce my "Malik was total dogshit" quote.

When you can't, apologize.


Where did I say you said "Malik was total dogshit"?

Produce that link and then when you realize you can't shut the fuck up about calling me a liar.

[whottt]

whott,

Did your dad ever give you the advice "quit while you're behind"?

This is one of those times, you need to quit.

Exactly how am I behind?

All you guys are doing is making fucking excuses for Nazr. One after the other.

Excuses go hand in hand with being wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

So either you need to come clean and admit Malik was not total dogshit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What excuses? I see people citing better stats for Mohammed than your fucking MVP Malik Rose, and you making excuses about Pop's doghouse and other assorted bullshit.

I gave you a long list of observations/facts that you mocked, I didn't see an excuse anywhere in my list.

the only person who thinks you're winning this discussion is you. Even your fellow Malik Rose Fan Club Co-President (LJ) has abandoned your sorry ass.

Go suck on the tit of your blocks per PF stat some more, maybe you can glean some knowledge out of there somewhere.

[ducks]

Duncan and Parker were injured at the beinning of last season for mulitple games...what was our record then?

you know at the beginning of the season most of the time the spurs suck
pop is messiing with things and spurs get hot after that :fro

[whottt]

Was that Ginobili fella playing then? Oh yeah, he was. STFU.


Excuses....How far you going to go with that? When you get to excuses for Jason Hart being injured?
Someone said 2 out of the big 3 were injured I asked for our record with Malik playing and and 2 of those guys injured...

and you guys make yet another fucking excuse...



Or don't you remember the 20 20 Game Malik had against the Mavs? You ought to remember a 20 20 game since neither Rasho nor Mohammed has ever had one.

Keep revising the past.

[whottt]

you know at the beginning of the season most of the time the spurs suck
pop is messiing with things and spurs get hot after that :fro

So in other words you'd rather make another excuse than find out?

Explain this to me...if they suck early in the season than their record should definitely have been worse with Duncan and Parker out early last year, wouldn't you agree?

I bet it was better than this year with Duncan and Manu out LATE in the season...and this team is much deeper.

[ducks]

so how many 20-20 games has rose have had?
so how many 20-20 games duncan have had ?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What excuse is that? This team can win with Tim and Tony out and Manu playing. That's a fact. How many games did Rose win with Tim and Manu out last year?

You can't make the comparison because they do different things.

Holy shit, Malik had a 20/20 game. Well sonuvabitch, guess we better call the Basketball Hall of Fame and ask them to make some room.

Scott Skiles had a 30 assist game once, we should sign him up and let Parker go, that's more assists than Tony's ever had. That's some fun logic you're using there.

How many times have Horry or Rose blocked eight shots in a game? Nazr's done it once already this year. There goes your "Horry and Malik > Nazr as a shotblocker" argument, by your same lame ass logic.

[whottt]

So either you need to come clean and admit Malik was not total dogshit.


I see nowhere in that sentence where I say that you said Malik was total dogshit...

I am arguing that Malik is not total dogshit, I use the term with a bit of sarcasm(except when it comes to AHF)...and I am asking you to admit I am right and that he isn't total dogshit.

Admit it.

And then admit you called me a liar in ignorance...I at no time claimed you said Malik was total dogshit.

You were wrong and you blamed me for your own stupidity.

Admit it.

[ChumpDumper]

I hope your not jerking off to the memory of 2002 so much as to miss the great putback Nazr just slammed down to end the quarter.

[Rummpd]

Sounds like Nazr is pretty stout tonight again. I was a Rose fan, now I am a "Nazr liker".

Longterm he is better for the Spurs - good to great player who is tall who also frees up salary.

[whottt]

I hope your not jerking off to the memory of 2002 so much as to miss the great putback Nazr just slammed down to end the quarter.

Chump...are you deliberately stupid just to piss me off?

In case you missed it the first time:


Actually idiot, I wrote this:
Quote:




Anyone with a brain can see Mohammed's oboards and putbacks are going to be great for this team, and his size may help intimidate inside scorers....




And this:

Quote:




We have needed a garbage man alongside for years...even while Drob was still on the team we started having this need..and this guy is going to be awesome in that role...




And this:

Quote:




I am the guy that posted all those guys saying he was going to be a great o rebounder and garbage man, I was also very excited by those comments.


Tell me something I wasn't expecting....There's more to the game then that though. But I guess the other side of the coin only applies to Malik right? You hypocritical bitch.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Fuck, Malik wasn't dog shit, he just didn't do much to help the team the last year and a half.

If me saying that makes me dogshit, well I guess that says a lot about your grasp on reality (loose, at best).

This whole discussion and all your hate towards Nazr or anyone who says Malik is anything other than the second coming of Kareem (he just needed PT, right?) has convinced me of one thing:

You and Spursgal would make one cute couple.

[ChumpDumper]

Never said Nazr was all that. Quit lying.

I don't blame you for not addressing Malik's rebound totals. That was really sad.

[whottt]

What excuse is that? This team can win with Tim and Tony out and Manu playing. That's a fact. How many games did Rose win with Tim and Manu out last year?

It's a fact? Not since Malik has left the team...they haven't proved that. And if so when?






Holy shit, Malik had a 20/20 game. Well sonuvabitch, guess we better call the Basketball Hall of Fame and ask them to make some room.

Games like that we what enabled us to win with Duncan out...haven't done that this season and Malik gone now have we?



Scott Skiles had a 30 assist game once, we should sign him up and let Parker go, that's more assists than Tony's ever had. That's some fun logic you're using there.

There's no logic to it...you are trying act like Malik Rose never did shit for this team...even last season, and you are wrong.

And I think Scott Skiles was probably a better passer than Parker ever will be...what's your point?


How many times have Horry or Rose blocked eight shots in a game? Nazr's done it once already this year. There goes your "Horry and Malik > Nazr as a shotblocker" argument, by your same lame ass logic.

Where exactly did I say Malik was a better shotblocker? Come to think of it where did I try to use the 20 20 game as justification that Malik was a better rebounder?


And you think you are ahead in this argument? Buddy...right now you aren't ahead of the scholastic reading program, much less me.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Wow, you sure got me. LJ's abandoned your ass. It's over.

And yeah, I think Rose didn't do shit last year, and he didn't. He had maybe five good games. I guess if you figure that we were paying him a million dollars for each game he showed up in then yeah, you've got a point.

To be honest, I have no fucking idea what point you are trying to make at this juncture, you ramble from one argument to another trying to find something else to stick. About the only coherent point you've made in this whole thread is that there is a blocks/PF stat (I'm not getting into what a farce you bringing that up trying to find a knock on Mohammed is).

[whottt]

Never said Nazr was all that. Quit lying.

I don't blame you for not addressing Malik's rebound totals. That was really sad.

And I don't recall calling you out in this thread prior to you getting Froggy.

If you put your ass in front of my foot...expect it to get kicked. I don't discriminate.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In the same amount of minutes thus far tonight we have:

Malik Rose, 4 points, 2 boards.

Nazr Mohammad: 7 points, 8 boards, 2 blocks.

If only we still had Rose[/whott]

[ChumpDumper]

If you put your ass in front of my foot...expect it to get kicked.Except you whiffed like the pussy you are.

You did nothing but lie and fuck up stats.

[whottt]

Wow, you sure got me. LJ's abandoned your ass. It's over.

:lol


You gotta be fucking kidding me? I am supposed to feel weak because TimVP bailed out on me?

LMAO where the fuck have you been the entire time this board has been in existence?

Figure it out - Avery Johnson is TimVP's favorite player. I hate Avery Johnson(what makes me better than you though Aggie is that when I hate a player I am willing to admit it)...

TimVP has said he holds me responsible for much of the AJ hate on this board...I agree that's laughable...but it does effect nontheless...

Take a look at my title...take a look at Chumps title...

Any alliance between TimVP and myself is a shaky one at best...

I might worry about it more if I had actually changed my stance since the beginning of this thread...however I haven't...so to me TimVP just contradicted himself...so why exactly am I supposed to let that effect me?

And personally I don't think TimVP is built to withstand massive pileons...I love them. And when I am able to get two lowkey if somewhat knowledgable personas like PicNroll and Solid D to come with some serious takes...I feel a tremendous sense of pride in my posting abilities.

Besides...I'm still better off with a flighty TimVP than you are with TPark.


What should worry you is that TimVP and I agreed on anything at all...that should legitimize my stance if anything...and either TimVP still gets my back on my original points...or else he waffled, either way you are wrong.




And yeah, I think Rose didn't do shit last year, and he didn't. He had maybe five good games. I guess if you figure that we were paying him a million dollars for each game he showed up in then yeah, you've got a point.

Malik played well when given minutes...but he doesn't have the smoothness of Horry...Pop had other options and Malik and the team suffered because of it...I've got no problem with Pop going with Horry...I've got a problem with his mindset that going with Horry means Malik should never be an option.


To be honest, I have no fucking idea what point you are trying to make at this juncture, you ramble from one argument to another trying to find something else to stick. About the only coherent point you've made in this whole thread is that there is a blocks/PF stat (I'm not getting into what a farce you bringing that up trying to find a knock on Mohammed is).

My point has never changed, you guys are fucking over-rating Nazr bigtime, y you are totally under-rating Malik...it was a gamble doing this trade, we don't know he is going to help the team win a title as much as Malik could have..CAN win a title with Malik...might with Nazr. ...


The reason it seems I ramble is because you guys make tangenital excuses and I have to go off course to destroy them.

[T Park]

now now aggie.


Malik has a steak resteraunt.

hes been here for 8 years.

hes, hes, hes, a nice guy.

[whottt]

Except you whiffed like the pussy you are.

You did nothing but lie and fuck up stats.


Where did I lie and which stats did I fuck up?

I didn't realize thw word "slight" was a stat, and you being a fucking idiot who can't read doesn't make me a liar.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only reason timvp agreed with you is because he is a big Rose fan. That's all you got going for yourself.

Yeah, tangents, like blocks/PF being a significant indicator in judging big men. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

You lied about me, asshole.

25% is not slight, asshole.

[Useruser666]

Can anyone own Whottt in this thread or is it just, Chump, AHF, MIA, T Park, FWD, and Solid D? :lol

[whottt]

You lied about me, asshole.
Link? Liar.


25% is not slight, asshole.

Link to where I said his PCT was slight?

C'mon Chump...use my own fucking words for once rather than you leadbrained interpretation of them.

Weak bitch.

[ChumpDumper]

Link?The last two pages.
Link to where I said his PCT was slight?OMFG. I already quoted that. Scroll up, pussy. And you didn't say anyone's "PCT was slight" although now that I think about it, that's just the kind of nonsensical tangent you'd bring up to try to distract from your being owned.

Nice try.

[whottt]

The only reason timvp agreed with you is because he is a big Rose fan. That's all you got going for yourself.

LMAO, the best you can do is say I should quit because TimVP contradicted himself? And you think you are winning this argument?

Look my point is...

TimVP = Loves AJ
Whott = Hates AJ

TimVP = doesn't like Barry
Whottt = likes Barry

TimVP = doesn't particularly like Horry
Whottt = generally likes Horry

The only thing we agree on is Malik Rose...that should tell you it's more than just a homeristic alliance.

Oh and you hate Malik Rose so don't act like you have any kind of objectivity on this subject?





Yeah, tangents, like blocks/PF being a significant indicator in judging big men. :lol

That whole debate was a tangent initiated by Solid D. That's my point. I didn't ask you guys to come along...

It became more of a tangent when you guys turned it into Malik's shotblocking VS Nazr's....

[whottt]

Can anyone own Whottt in this thread or is it just, Chump, AHF, MIA, T Park, FWD, and Solid D? :lol


Half of those are the guys that couldn't read during the Horry VS Nazr shotblocking thing...those guys don't even own their ABC's much less me.

By the way...can you ever be funny? I realize you think you are very funny...but only about 1 in 100 of your clever little posts elicits a laugh...and I am still waiting for my first :lol

Oh wait let me guess...you want to "meet me" again now don't you? :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What do I have to be objective about?

Malik was a great guy off the court. On it, he didn't do shit for the last year and a half and was beat out by our geriatric bench brigade.

We traded him for a 27 year old natural offensive rebounder who significantly upgrades our front court depth and will be a regular in the rotation (compared to Malik being a regular in garbage time).

Considering how much you worship Malik's ass like he was some kind of walking double double machine, I don't think you have room to lecture about the term "objective."

[adrien]

What do I have to be objective about?

Malik was a great guy off the court. On it, he didn't do shit for the last year and a half and was beat out by our geriatric bench brigade.

We traded him for a 27 year old natural offensive rebounder who significantly upgrades our front court depth and will be a regular in the rotation (compared to Malik being a regular in garbage time).

Considering how much you worship Malik's ass like he was some kind of walking double double machine, I don't think you have room to lecture about the term "objective."

nothing more to add, I totally agree

[Useruser666]

Half of those are the guys that couldn't read during the Horry VS Nazr shotblocking thing...those guys don't even own their ABC's much less me.

By the way...can you ever be funny? I realize you think you are very funny...but only about 1 in 100 of your clever little posts elicits a laugh...and I am still waiting for my first :lol

Oh wait let me guess...you want to "meet me" again now don't you? :lol

What are you talking about?

You are a glutton for punishment for sure.

[whottt]

I've been more complimentary of Nazr than you have of Malik Rose....I am much more objective.

I have acknowledged Nazr's O boards and Garbage work will fit in well on this team....I just simply refuse give him credit for being what he isn't, and what he hasn't shown himself to be, a good passer, a willing passer, a guy with a jumpshot, a good defender, an unfoul prone player, ...and I refuse to say he increases our chances of winning a title this year and I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how he will...Malik may not have been the garbage man Nazr is already...but he brought a lot of other things to this team...the most important of which is experience.

You can't say that trade helped this team yet, in terms of winning a title, and have a factual basis for doing so, and you are wrong about this guys passing ability and J...

You want to point to his garbage work then go ahead...but there's more to the game than that and I don't think we are a better team right now than we were with Malik. It's not like Nazr is getting more minutes than Malik was anyway.

And for all you know Nazr's butt is going to end up glued to the bench as much as Malik's was. Horry has 5 fucking rings, and is proably the smartest player in the NBA...he's not that easy of a guy to beat out...regardless of what his stats are...ask Malik.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You can't say that trade helped this team yet, in terms of winning a title, and have a factual basis for doing so, and you are wrong about this guy passing ability and J...


In the same vein, you can't say that it hasn't helped the team.


It's not like Nazr is getting more minutes than Malik was anyway.


And you want to lecture me about my math? Nazr's getting about 15 minutes a night, Malik was getting DNP-CDs.

How the fuck was Rose helping out our team as much as you say? Keeping the towels off the floor at the end of the bench? Keeping Manu properly hydrated? Bringing Massenberg his walker after the game so he could make it to the locker room?

[ChumpDumper]

And for all you know Nazr's butt is going to end up glued to the bench as much as Malik's was. Horry has 5 fucking rings, and is proably the smartest player in the NBA...he's not that easy of a guy to beat out...regardless of what his stats are...ask Malik.So at worst, we'll just go with Horry like we did last year since Malik couldn't beat him out last year or this year.

You have finally convinced me that keeping Malik would have made no difference at all this season.

Thank you.

[adrien]

In the same vein, you can't say that it hasn't helped the team.



Actually, it has, regardless his performances, don't forget his salary

[whottt]

So at worst, we'll just go with Horry like we did last year since Malik couldn't beat him out last year or this year.

Yeah...and at worst Shaq will go off on us for 66% again...something he never did when Malik was in the rotation against him...whether Drob was healthy or not.


You have finally convinced me that keeping Malik would have made no difference at all this season.

Thank you.

Well obviously if he was used stupidly again it wouldn't have...but you don't seem to realize that Malik was getting more consistent PT this season and he was playing better with the reduced minutes....

This season Malik really wasn't in the doghouse...Horry got a few DNP CD's this season too...




Your stupidity is unfortunate...what I should have convinced you is that not playing Malik important minutes against the Lakers last year was a mistake....I mean what could it have hurt? Shaq shoots 67% against us instead of the 66% he shot against Rasho and Horry?

But of course that would require you to utilize thought independent of Pop...something you struggle with.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This season Malik really wasn't in the doghouse..

Good call, the coaching staff's opinions of Rose had never been higher, that's why they traded him. :lol

[whottt]

In the same vein, you can't say that it hasn't helped the team.

Well gee...I wonder more teams don't use our patented "two healthy bigmen on the entire team" that we just used in during our recent slump.






And you want to lecture me about my math? Nazr's getting about 15 minutes a night, Malik was getting DNP-CDs.

So? Horry's gotten DNP CD's also, so has Mass...That's Pop.

Malik was averaging 17 minutes per game.






How the fuck was Rose helping out our team as much as you say? Keeping the towels off the floor at the end of the bench? Keeping Manu properly hydrated? Bringing Massenberg his walker after the game so he could make it to the locker room?

Well let's see...Again why don't you look at what Malik did in the two Phoenix games this season....

I think those contributions might have helped more than the DNPCD Nazr got...but that's just me...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lol We won the one Phoenix game because of Manu Ginobili. Period.

Are you so desperate that you're comparing the two games we had all our guns (Tim, Manu, Tony) healthy for that Malik had the privilige of being on the pine for vs. the one that Nazr sat out along with Tim and Manu? :lol

Now I know you're desperate.

[whottt]

Good call, the coaching staff's opinions of Rose had never been higher, that's why they traded him. :lol


LMAO...Care to show me where they dissed Malik? Everyone I saw said trading Malik impacted the team...

No what's really funny is what everyone on the Knicks has said about trading Mohammed...

You need to realize what the Knicks said about Mohammed...Players, Coaches and GM....they all took a piss...

and you know what? Do you think they miss him? Do you honestly think that? Look at their record now.


I don't mean the record earned with Mohammed carrying their inside, that of 4th worst in the entire NBA...I mean since they dumped him.

[whottt]

:lol We won the one Phoenix game because of Manu Ginobili. Period.

Are you so desperate that you're comparing the two games we had all our guns (Tim, Manu, Tony) healthy for that Malik had the privilige of being on the pine for vs. the one that Nazr sat out along with Tim and Manu? :lol

Now I know you're desperate.


What about the first game? And fuck that, Malik played well in the second game...he damn sure played better than DNPCD.

[whottt]

And you know what's really funny Aggie...If Malik Rose had a game like Nazr had tonight there would be 25 posts by you on this forum talking about how bad Malik sucks...

TO's Fouls...everything you hate about Malik...and this was against the fucking worst team in the NBA.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Shit, if Malik had 8, 8, and 2 (blocks, not turnovers), I'd be happy.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'll go one further than that: if Malik averaged 8 and 8 I'd be the president of his fucking fan club.

[whottt]

Malik averaged 10 and 6 off the bench playing beind Duncan and Robinson and you still ripped his ass.

Who are you kidding man?

Go back to telling me I should quit because TimVP bailed on me....because you will reveal you are full of it if you continue trying this crap.

[whottt]

Shit, if Malik had 8, 8, and 2 (blocks, not turnovers), I'd be happy.


You might be happy but you wouldn't remember it...Malik had 2 double doubles off the bench the week he was traded....Nazr was averaging about 3 and 1 around that time and you acted like we just drafted Duncan when we traded for him.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Malik averaged 10 and 6 off the bench playing beind Duncan and Robinson and you still ripped his ass.

Who are you kidding man?

Back when he was doing that, I was a Malik fan.

It was last year (8 and 5) and this year (6 and 5) - diminishing stats since getting paid - that were the problems.

[Mark in Austin]

The fact remains...Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Nazr 0 rings.

We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Nazr. And no matter how stupid you are...that fact will not change.

So to use Whottt logic:

Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Jermaine O'Neal 0 rings. We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Jermaine O'Neal.

Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Elton Brand 0 rings. We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Brand.

Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Kevin Garnett 0 rings. We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Garnett.

Malik 2 rings, one playing a huge role, Yao 0 rings. We know we can win with Malik...it is speculation to say we can with Yao.

While all these statements are factually true, they are also completely irrelevent. OK, Malik has more rings then all of the combined. But what the hell is the point? Jaren Jackson has a ring and John Stockton doesn't. I know who the better gaurd was, though.

[T Park]

We know we can win with Malik...

Yup, I loved those championships in 2000 01 02 and 98.


Fantastic years.

[whottt]

What's your logic MIA?

[whottt]

Yup, I loved those championships in 2000 01 02 and 98.


Fantastic years.


Damn, in that case I guess we better trade Duncan.

[T Park]

We win with Malik.

How come we didn't win those years, when Malik played lots of minutes???


God take your lips off malik's richard for five goddamn minutes already.


You make me sound like a fuckin pop basher compared to your manlove for Rose.

[T Park]

What's your logic

WTF is yours????


Other than you and spurgal taking turns getting rammed by Rosey.

[whottt]

Oh I missed the late edit...

I asked for your logic to see if you oversimplify your own logic like you do those you argue with...

There is no comparison between Malik Rose and those talents you mentioned...there is also no comparison between those guys and Nazr Mohammed...but I will tell you what separates many of those superstars from one another...their supporting cast...guys like Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed.

Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed are comparable players and stats are essentially meaningless with role players so all you can do is judge them by how sucessful they have been in their roles on teams, moments, leadership, chemistry.....

Malik Rose has been a bench player backing up a pair of Hall of Famers on a perennial title contender for the bulk of his career...a player who in his last bout with FA was pursued by the defending champion LA Lakers...

Nazr Mohammed has been a bench player on lottery teams for the bulk of his career and he's pretty much been passed around like a crackwhore....

I can find a lot of Malik's teamates and coaches that talk about what Malik brings in term of chemistry...Just fine me one that says something similar about Nazr.

Malik Rose is Tim Duncan's best friend...when David Robinson was asked who would assume his type of leadership on the team after his retirment...he said Malik Rose.

What it all boils down too...Malik has been a valued, beloved and important member of two championship teams backing up a couple of Hall of Famers...Nazr wasn't even valued by lottery teams.

[whottt]

WTF is yours????


Other than you and spurgal taking turns getting rammed by Rosey.

Yet another Rose hater that can't read...if you could you would see that MIA posted it for you.

[whottt]

We win with Malik.

How come we didn't win those years, when Malik played lots of minutes???

Because we weren't a good enough team to win in those years. But obviously Malik wasn't the reason why...



God take your lips off malik's richard for five goddamn minutes already.


You make me sound like a fuckin pop basher compared to your manlove for Rose.

You do realize that the years we didn't win titles were Pop's fault right?

I mean even using your whinings...Pop was the guy that played Malik those huge minutes.

[timvp]

Overboard in what way? Explain.



First of all, you are all over the board and in crazy Whottt mode, so I don't want to be associated with you in this thread. I was following your train of thought for a bit but then you went too far and stopped making sense.

Second of all, you should have given up after you used the blocks to fouls ratio or whatever. :rollin



You never told me that...although I do admit to sending you a PM, after the trade, saying I finally figured out why you didn't like Horry, when I never could before....

As for their ability to play together...We were off to the best start in team history when they were both getting PT.

Just because Pop couldn't handle the talent doesn't mean they couldn't play well together...Again, we got off to the best start in team history.


I told you that the signing of Horry meant the end of Rose.

You know this. But you wouldn't listen to me and went on some weird "Pop can play them both" tangent.

[timvp]

And personally I don't think TimVP is built to withstand massive pileons.


:lol

I've been taking on and winning massive "pileons" since you were a troll at the WOAI boards. If you want to check some of my work, look up the Ron Mercer threads when I said he was going to get waived. I had everyone and their moms on me saying I was crazy.

Hell, did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.

But Pop did.

:smokin

[Kori Ellis]

in crazy Whottt mode

:lmao

[smeagol]

:Hell, did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.

But Pop did.

:smokin
Timvp, this is what Pop said in the article kori posted in the other thread:

"Popovich is considering using Ginobili off the bench to slowly work him up to his 30-minute average."

How the hell do you conclude Manu will come of the bench for the rest of the season, based on the above quote?

[Mark in Austin]

Oh I missed the late edit...

I asked for your logic to see if you oversimplify your own logic like you do those you argue with...

There is no comparison between Malik Rose and those talents you mentioned...there is also no comparison between those guys and Nazr Mohammed...but I will tell you what separates many of those superstars from one another...their supporting cast...guys like Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed.

Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed are comparable players and stats are essentially meaningless with role players so all you can do is judge them by how sucessful they have been in their roles on teams, moments, leadership, chemistry.....

Malik Rose has been a bench player backing up a pair of Hall of Famers on a perennial title contender for the bulk of his career...a player who in his last bout with FA was pursued by the defending champion LA Lakers...

Nazr Mohammed has been a bench player on lottery teams for the bulk of his career and he's pretty much been passed around like a crackwhore....

I can find a lot of Malik's teamates and coaches that talk about what Malik brings in term of chemistry...Just fine me one that says something similar about Nazr.

Malik Rose is Tim Duncan's best friend...when David Robinson was asked who would assume his type of leadership on the team after his retirment...he said Malik Rose.

What it all boils down too...Malik has been a valued, beloved and important member of two championship teams backing up a couple of Hall of Famers...Nazr wasn't even valued by lottery teams.


1. I wasn't comparing Rose or Nazr to Garnett, Brand, etc. I was making a point you completely missed, apparently. That is, saying one player is more valueable than another because he has more rings (ESPECIALLY role players) is stunningly short sighted; and is a perfect example of selective use of logic and facts you have used in this entire thread. It MAY be true, but there is not the direct correllation you imply. I have simply applied your logic to a more extreme set of players in order to prove the point, as it has become readily apparent that subtlety is lost on you.

2. What is so difficult to uderstand about the concept of teams needs changing as personell change? Malik was a great back-up energy big man when he was playing behind Duncan and Robinson and really needed to only provide solid bursts of energy while spelling Big Dave and Tim. With Rasho and Duncan, the back up needs have changed. The Spurs now need somebody who can play consistently longer minutes for those nights that Rasho forgets his balls at home, and starts to suck the entire team down with his listless play. In essence, the Spurs need a back-up center more than a back-up undersized four that isn't professional enough to know and play his role; and therefore often doesn't even get off the bench.

A taller big man like Nazr more closely fits this need. Rose was the player available to make the trade happen.

3. You have a vision of Malik from the Mutombo facial in the 2003 finals. In case you've missed it because you head has been buried in the sand, over the past two seasons Malik played, generously, only about 10% of his games at that level. If he brought that high level of competitiveness within the role the coaches expected him to fill consistently over the past two years, he would still be a Spur. But he didn't.

[picnroll]

timvp are you staking your basketball acumen reputation on Manu coming off the bench in the playoffs?

[wildbill2u]

I hope no one questions Malik's contributions to the Spurs. But like many other players, including superstars like Gervin and Silas, it was time for him to go.

Malik had shown improvement over the years, going from single digit minutes to his top of 24 mpg in 2002-03, but this year (and last) his playing minutes dropped to 17mpg (and that's what he's getting in NY so far by the way). There has to be a reason and I don't think it was because we brought in an old geezer like Horry. If you admit that Horry deserved Malik's minutes then something went wrong with Malik's game.

I'd like to suggest that his success had gone to his head a little bit. He began holding the ball to get his shot and often wound up mishandling it. Statistically he had his worst year in FG% in 2003-2004 since he came into the league.

Since Malik's role on a much worse team is still that of a backup with the same minutes per game--with lower stats in FG%, Rebounds, PPG and slightly higher stats in FT%, Fouls and TOs, it's hard to see how his coming or going makes much difference to either team other than the character issue of being a good guy in the locker room and the town.

Oh--and the big contract that is now off our back.

[T Park]

^^^ U make way too much sense.

[boutons]

"Since Malik's role on a much worse team is still that of a backup with the same minutes per game"

Just as it's way too early to judge Nazrs' role/contriibtion @SAS, it's still way too early to judge Malik's @NYK.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

I hope no one questions Malik's contributions to the Spurs. But like many other players, including superstars like Gervin and Silas, it was time for him to go.

Malik had shown improvement over the years, going from single digit minutes to his top of 24 mpg in 2002-03, but this year (and last) his playing minutes dropped to 17mpg (and that's what he's getting in NY so far by the way). There has to be a reason and I don't think it was because we brought in an old geezer like Horry. If you admit that Horry deserved Malik's minutes then something went wrong with Malik's game.

I'd like to suggest that his success had gone to his head a little bit. He began holding the ball to get his shot and often wound up mishandling it. Statistically he had his worst year in FG% in 2003-2004 since he came into the league.

Since Malik's role on a much worse team is still that of a backup with the same minutes per game--with lower stats in FG%, Rebounds, PPG and slightly higher stats in FT%, Fouls and TOs, it's hard to see how his coming or going makes much difference to either team other than the character issue of being a good guy in the locker room and the town.

Oh--and the big contract that is now off our back.

Bingo. And the enless banter debating both players worth is pointless. The phrase, "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind. But as a thread, this horse was never useful for transportation to begin with.

[timvp]

"Popovich is considering using Ginobili off the bench to slowly work him up to his 30-minute average."

How the hell do you conclude Manu will come of the bench for the rest of the season, based on the above quote?

When I mentioned the possibility of Manu coming off the bench, the Manu Defenders went ape and said it would never happen again. That Pop would never bench Manu this season.


timvp are you staking your basketball acumen reputation on Manu coming off the bench in the playoffs?

Odds are, Manu will start in the playoffs. There'd just be too many riots if Pop switched Manu to coming off the bench at this point of the season.

However, I do think it'd be a smart move. And I do think it could actually happen. Imagine this scenario:

Manu comes back and for about five games, Pop has him coming off the bench. Barry continues to play his best ball of the season and Devin finds ways to contribute next to Manu off the bench.

Pop tells the media he's going to keep bringing Manu off the bench to rest him for the postseason. But the Spurs keep winning and all the players are playing well, including Manu who is playing 28-30 minutes off the bench ... including almost the entire fourth quarter.

With a couple games to go in the season, Pop says he's going to stick with the current rotation for the playoffs. Manu comes out and says something like, "I'm a little disappointed about not starting because every basketball player wants to start, but I'll do what is best for the team. If that means coming off the bench, I'll do that."

The Spurs go on and play very well in the playoffs and Manu becomes the ultimate weapon off the bench, perhaps even being named Finals MVP from off the bench.

Could that happen?

Answer me that.

[Nikos]

Wouldn't Manu get tired playing 12 straight minutes?

[timvp]

Key word being "almost".



P.S.

You don't think that scenario is possible?

[Spurs košarka kultura]

Honestly, I prefer Manu off the bench, as recall that's what he did when we won in 03' yes? Anyway that is the beauty of this organization, Manu will be the same Manu whether he starts or not. Like all of these debates, it ends like this: IT DOSEN'T MATTER WHO STARTS, IT'S WHO FINISHES THAT MATTERS. A WIN IS A WIN EITHER WAY! By the way I thought this was a Nazr thread, wasn't it?

[whottt]

First of all, you are all over the board and in crazy Whottt mode, so I don't want to be associated with you in this thread. I was following your train of thought for a bit but then you went too far and stopped making sense.

Second of all, you should have given up after you used the blocks to fouls ratio or whatever. :rollin


TimVP, a man has the right to backtrack and reverse field all he wants, so be my guest, it's not like I am going to ask you to change your title over it or anything :rolleyes

Fortunately what you do has nothing to do with the accuracy of my stances. A. AHF, TPark and the like are seriously over-rating Mohammed when they say he has good hands and is a good passer. B.Trading for Nazr made it more difficult for us to win a title this year given the differences in playoff and team experience. And they are accurate stances. As was my stance that the trades Isiah Thomas pulled off, and Malik Rose, would help improve his team(I guess I know more than AHF's scout friend does)...

As for blocks to fouls...we were comparing Horry and Nazr...I could easily prove Horry is more of a shotblocker than Nazr just by citing his career averages and seasonal block totals...but I had the luxury of proving it another way and so I did so...

Blocks to Personal Fouls is measured stat, whether you guys have heard of it before or not...

Look:
Blocks to PF ratio at ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbablocks&qual=true&sort=blkpf&league=nba&split=0&season=2005&seasontype=2&avg=pg&pos=all)


As you can see by Duncan's prominence in that category it is more than just a garbage stat...

That stat does have relevance when you are talking about a difference of .26 blocks per game...

But you guys can go ahead and keep laughing...the joke is on you. I can't help it if you guys can't see how there could be a correlation between trying to block a shot and picking up a personal foul.

BTW, Horry is a better shotblocker than Nazr. It may change soon enough due to Horry's age...but he's still a better shotblocker for now.








I told you that the signing of Horry meant the end of Rose.

You know this. But you wouldn't listen to me and went on some weird "Pop can play them both" tangent.

Sorry but I struggle with taking Pop's deficiencies as a coach into account when favtoring whether something will or won't work...

It was not sharing minutes that was the problem...It's Pop stupidly giving Malik or Horry a DNPCD in a game we lose that creates the confusion and the problem.

As you just admitted...Pop obviously can't handle too much talent...why is that a weird tangent? I'd say it's a serious flaw and the main reason this team has underachieved it's talent level this season...Had this been Stephen Jackson's second year with the Spurs he wouldn't make it off the bench on this team.

[whottt]

:lol

I've been taking on and winning massive "pileons" since you were a troll at the WOAI boards. If you want to check some of my work, look up the Ron Mercer threads when I said he was going to get waived. I had everyone and their moms on me saying I was crazy.

I was never a troll at WOAI...I made nick there to harass a troll(named Conan). I was then, as I am now, a Spurfan to the core.

The Mercer one was good...you were right Pop did waive Mercer...and I was right in saying Pop was setting us up for ANOTHER post season perimeter choke job.

But you have had some good pileon threads...so consider your point proved :).

I always give credit when someone is proved right.


Hell, did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.

But Pop did.

:smokin

Another good one...you seem to be very in touch with what Pop will or won't do...that doesn't mean it's the right move to make.

And rest assured...putting Manu back on the bench would be a mistake this time around.

[whottt]

1. I wasn't comparing Rose or Nazr to Garnett, Brand, etc. I was making a point you completely missed, apparently. That is, saying one player is more valueable than another because he has more rings (ESPECIALLY role players) is stunningly short sighted; and is a perfect example of selective use of logic and facts you have used in this entire thread. It MAY be true, but there is not the direct correllation you imply. I have simply applied your logic to a more extreme set of players in order to prove the point, as it has become readily apparent that subtlety is lost on you.

You made a screwy comparison and attributed it to me...and it sure as hell did look like you were equivalating Malik Rose to Kevin Garnett on my behalf.

Rings do matter more with key reserves and role players than Superstars...it's the key reserves/role players that make the difference on title winning teams with equivalent SuperStars.....

Or can't you tell the difference between Vinny Del Negro and Mario Elie? Between Jack and Hedo? Steve Kerr and Charlie Ward?

What Malik's two rings do is PROVE that he can be a key member of an NBA title team, he is EXPERIENCED....while Nazr's lack threrof leave him UNPROVEN and INEXPERIENCED...and that is the seminal point I am trying to make with you here. Not that Nazr sucks(because I really don't think he does), or that Malik Rose is god.

Just that, one is proven, the other isn't. And trading a PROVEN and EXPERIENCED commodity for an UNPROVEN and INEXPERIENCED one, when you are the top title favorite, IS A GAMBLE(and one that wasn't necessary). And that's my point.




Has Nazr Mohammed ever been EXPERIENCED? Well Malik Rose has :smokin








2. What is so difficult to uderstand about the concept of teams needs changing as personell change? Malik was a great back-up energy big man when he was playing behind Duncan and Robinson and really needed to only provide solid bursts of energy while spelling Big Dave and Tim. With Rasho and Duncan, the back up needs have changed. The Spurs now need somebody who can play consistently longer minutes for those nights that Rasho forgets his balls at home, and starts to suck the entire team down with his listless play. In essence, the Spurs need a back-up center more than a back-up undersized four that isn't professional enough to know and play his role; and therefore often doesn't even get off the bench.

A taller big man like Nazr more closely fits this need. Rose was the player available to make the trade happen.


We've had taller players than Malik...they weren't better than he was...so I don't get your point.
Why not just take Marks off the bench if size is the need...he can dunk better and get more putbacks than Malik Rose also.


See, two can oversimplify :)


Weak Point. Sorry but it is. "Bigger is better" os weak compared to the points I am making about a player being proven.






3. You have a vision of Malik from the Mutombo facial in the 2003 finals. In case you've missed it because you head has been buried in the sand, over the past two seasons Malik played, generously, only about 10% of his games at that level. If he brought that high level of competitiveness within the role the coaches expected him to fill consistently over the past two years, he would still be a Spur. But he didn't.

Again, you are wrong...Malik had the best game of his career last year...when Duncan was injured early in the season Malik lead the entire NBA FTA per game.

What changed was the way Malik was used and the chances he was given...Malik's play didn't change...He still stepped up when he was needed...like he always did. The difference was that when Pop got pissed at him he had the Horry option that he had never had before....and that's great...it's wonderful to have options...

But that doesn't excuse leaving a proven LA beater on the bench while Horry and Rasho are getting buttfucked by Shaq. Malik not being given the same opportunities last season doesn't mean his game changed.

A better point along this line is the one many are making about Pop won't play Malik so what good does it do to have him here? I tend to think that's more of a Pop fault than a Malik fault but that's just me.

[Solid D]

Blocks to Personal Fouls is measured stat, whether you guys have heard of it before or not...

Look:
Blocks to PF ratio at ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbablocks&qual=true&sort=blkpf&league=nba&split=0&season=2005&seasontype=2&avg=pg&pos=all)


As you can see by Duncan's prominence in that category it is more than just a garbage stat...

That stat does have relevance when you are talking about a difference of .26 blocks per game...

But you guys can go ahead and keep laughing...the joke is on you. I can't help it if you guys can't see how there could be a correlation between trying to block a shot and picking up a personal foul.

BTW, Horry is a better shotblocker than Nazr. It may change soon enough due to Horry's age...but he's still a better shotblocker for now.

If the stat has real relevance, then explain what it means to you, rather than using the "ESPN has it" reason.. or the "Tim Duncan looks good with that stat so it must be relevant" reason.

I can suggest that a possible benefit of not getting called for fouls on contested shots may encourage a less restrained approach to shot-blocking, but so what? Most of the fouls I've seen Nazr called for have been while he is still on the floor. Blocking fouls, screen fouls, etc. and not on jumping to block or contest shots. It's a fairly low-indicator stat. If not, why not with clear, meaningful reasons?

Defensive presence in the lane & the cornerstone of the Spurs defense is RULE 1: Force people away from the lane. That is where high percentage shots take place. Shot blocking ability is only part of defensive lane presence. AK47, or even Gerald Wallace is a better shot blocker than Nazr or Robert but that doesn't mean they alter shots and defend the paint better.

Sometimes Robert gambles and he can be rooted out of position. He's a tall SF too slow to defend 3s any more, so he plays PF. He does a lot with what he has and he's very smart in creating loose balls and playing screens out on the floor, but he's not the staunch lane presence Nazr is. Malik was more of a lane presence than Robert is but neither restrict airspace, leaping nor standing still like Nazr does.

Let's just see how things go the rest of the season on Opp FG%. That should tell us a lot more than BPPF does, or will ever tell us.

[whottt]

Back when he was doing that, I was a Malik fan.

It was last year (8 and 5) and this year (6 and 5) - diminishing stats since getting paid - that were the problems.

Last night Malik Rose had 11 and 6....that equals Nazr's best performance against Shaq...the difference being Malik did it off the bench in 18 minutes while Nazr put up his numbers as a starter in 37 minutes.


Give props and admit that nothing had changed about Malik's play...

I mean let's look at what Malik did the last time he played Shaq with the Spurs...

Oops...he got a DNPCD...Yeah he really sucked that game, and that loss was his fault, obviously his game has declined[/retard]


Malik's averaging 10 points a game against the Heat with the Knicks...might have been nice to have that against Mia should we meet them in the finals..it beats anything Rasho or Horry have done against the Heat lately. And Malik does have the willingness to take it to Shaq hard and try to pick up fouls...I don't see that same type of competitiveness in Nazr. I don't think he's a choker by any stretch...but he doesn't work as hard as Malik did...this is obvious.

[whottt]

If the stat has real relevance, then explain what it means to you, rather than using the "ESPN has it" reason.. or the "Tim Duncan looks good with that stat so it must be relevant" reason.

You want relevance? I'll give you relevance...

If Mohammed has 4 fouls in the third quarter and you are forced to play him...if you are his coach are you going to encourage him to block shots?

I am 6 foot white guy...give me unlimited fouls per game and I'll go out there and make Mark Eaton my bitch when it comes to blocks.


There is a correlation Solid D...I admit it's got a large margin for error...but that doesn't make it invaluable or invalid...fouls are always a factor in blocking shots...they are often the effect of the cause...







I can suggest that a possible benefit of not getting called for fouls on contested shots may encourage a less restrained approach to shot-blocking, but so what? Most of the fouls I've seen Nazr called for have been while he is still on the floor. Blocking fouls, screen fouls, etc. and not on jumping to block or contest shots. It's a fairly low-indicator stat. If not, why not with clear, meaningful reasons?

I've seen Nazr get at least 1 foul on a block attempt per game...this in limited minutes...



Defensive presence in the lane & the cornerstone of the Spurs defense is RULE 1: Force people away from the lane. That is where high percentage shots take place. Shot blocking ability is only part of defensive lane presence. AK47, or even Gerald Wallace is a better shot blocker than Nazr or Robert but that doesn't mean they alter shots and defend the paint better.

Sometimes Robert gambles and he can be rooted out of position. He's a tall SF too slow to defend 3s any more, so he plays PF. He does a lot with what he has and he's very smart in creating loose balls and playing screens out on the floor, but he's not the staunch lane presence Nazr is. Malik was more of a lane presence than Robert is but neither restrict airspace, leaping nor standing still like Nazr does.

Hmmm...I see the point you are trying to make...but Rasho is much slower than Horry and Nazr and he is a much better shotblocker than either of them...and he was before he ever came to the Spurs.



Let's just see how things go the rest of the season on Opp FG%. That should tell us a lot more than BPPF does, or will ever tell us.

Hmmm, the Spurs I think set the NBA record for opp FG% last season(And Horry was the key back up big on that team BTW)...Does that mean Rasho is more of a defensive presence than David Robinson?