Initial Reaction: Spurs @ Cavs - Apr. 5

[timvp]

http://www.spurstalk.com/box1apr5.jpg
http://www.spurstalk.com/box2apr5.jpg

Coming into the game, I didn't give the Spurs much of a chance. They usually aren't very sharp in afternoon affairs and the Cavaliers were coming off of two disappointing road losses. And that's not even mentioning that Cleveland has lost only one home game all season. The Spurs definitely had their work cut out for them.

Today, there was no miracle. The Spurs held the game close for the first quarter before the Cavs blew the doors off. The final three quarters weren't very competitive as Cleveland steamed their way to a 101-81 victory.

Regarding the Cavs, as impossible as it may seem given the amount of hype surrounding LeBron James, I think they are actually underrated this season. They are a very good defensive team, James is obviously a beast and now they have perfect pieces around him. I personally think they are going to easily make it to the NBA Finals. Kevin Garnett would have to get healthy for the Celtics to give the Cavs a test but even if he does, I just think the Cavs are better this year.

For the Spurs to even think about the Finals, they'd need to get a lot better. The problems facing the team are multifaceted and with the playoffs coming in less than two weeks, it's looking less and less likely that this is their year.

-Tim Duncan had an odd game. He started off playing decently well but then just never got the touches the rest of the way. While his teammates could have done a better job of force-feeding him the rock, a lot of the blame is on Duncan for not putting himself in positions to receive the ball. Physically, it's difficult to figure out how health or how hurt he is at the moment. He'll play a few possessions like the regular Tim Duncan but then he'll go a stretch where he moves like he's under water. Hopefully his performance today was just a case of Duncan sleepwalking through an early game and not a sign that his health is regressing.

-Manu Ginobili wasn't too helpful. In the first half, he seemed content to stay on the perimeter. With the offense in his hands to start the second quarter, the Spurs went scoreless and the Cavs were able to get the separation that they never relinquished. Defensively, he was a little bit better that his last outing but his rotations were a slow. For the Spurs to have put up a fight against Cleveland, Ginobili was going to have to produce at an extremely high level. Instead, he was well below average.

-In the first quarter, Tony Parker's offense helped the Spurs stay in the game. He had a number of impressive moves around the basket and also mixed in a few jumpers. Defensively, Parker had also done a good job against Mo Williams. However, once Parker subbed out and Jacque Vaughn took the point guard reins, the offensive momentum totally died and Williams was able to heat up at the other end. Parker gave good effort in trying to right the ship but sometimes he tried too hard and that compounded the negative issues. Overall, Parker didn't play a great game but he was playing at a high enough level for the Spurs to win if he had help.

-Michael Finley got the unenviable task of defending LeBron James one-on-one to begin the game. To the shock of no one (other than maybe Pop, apparently), James was able to go absolutely wild in the first quarter as he scored 18 of his 38 points. It'd difficult to blame Finley too much for his defense because anyone who has watched him play defense knew he had no chance. Offensively, Finley was horrible in the first half -- missing all of his shots and turning the ball over three times. He was better in the second half but by then it was too late.

-Matt Bonner had an all too familiar line. He scored well, hit a good percentage of his shots but was worthless on the glass. A starting bigman can't go without a defensive rebound, especially a starting bigman on a team with championship aspirations. Defensively, Bonner was decent but not good enough to make up for his lack of rebounding.

-Drew Gooden gave the Spurs another solid effort. He once again scored in a variety of different ways and his energy on both ends was commendable. Gooden has proven he can produce. The trick for Pop will be to figure out best to get that production out of him. The cold, hard truth is that Gooden is a ball hog who has a penchant for breaking the rhythm of the offense and his defense is going to be a liability for at least the rest of the season. That said, the Spurs desperately need his scoring punch and his lively body on the boards. Hopefully Pop will master when and how Gooden should be utilized.

-Roger Mason, Jr. was headed to another very quiet outing until he got hot for a stretch in the second half. For the first time this season, I saw signs of his confidence being severely rattled. With his role changing from quarter to quarter, it doesn't take a basketball genius to figure out why Mason is second-guessing himself. Hopefully he can get into some sort of rhythm heading into the postseason. If he doesn't, it'd be difficult to envision a championship without Mason being a trustworthy fourth option.

-With James blowing up, Pop eventually gave Bruce Bowen a chance. Bowen didn't have much luck with James rolling but he at least made scoring a bit more difficult. I would have loved to see what would have happened if Bowen got a chance to start off the game on James. As we saw in the 2007 Finals, Bowen is very good at not allowing the superstar perimeter player catch fire. This fire extinguisher role isn't fitting him well right now.

-Kurt Thomas played decent in his time on the court. His rebounding was very good and his defense was solid. Offensively, he struggled and missed a few chippies around the rim. With the Spurs getting out-rebounded 44-34, it would have been nice for Thomas to play more. His nine boards in 16 minutes led the team. With the bigman rotation as chaotic as it is, Thomas deserves kudos for being consistent over the last few months.

-Jacque Vaughn was once again the backup point guard. On the roster, Vaughn serves a purpose - but it shouldn't be the backup point guard role. The Cavs weren't even guarding him when he had the ball. When he didn't have the ball, the Spurs were literally playing four on five. Unlike Bowen, opposing teams don't even have to respect his jumper once he gets the ball. I could somewhat understand if the Spurs had Vaughn run pick-and-rolls or penetrate and kick but his job is to basically bring the ball up the court and hand it off to the shooting guard. As it is, San Antonio's backup point guard is playing shooting guard even though he can't shoot, score at the rim or play much defense. Mind boggling. Truly mind boggling.

-Ime Udoka got 11 minutes of action and was embarrassingly bad. He missed the rim on his shots a handful of times. His perimeter defense was awful. Udoka wasn't even rebounding, which is usually his saving grace. For a while, Udoka was playing better but now he's back to the Ime Udoka we saw earlier in the season.

-George Hill got six minutes but didn't get to do much. His defense was active and he stayed somewhat aggressive offensively. Honestly, I'm surprised Hill hasn't totally melted down considering he's now mostly playing small forward on offense while defending both point guards and shooting guards on defense. For a rookie, he's doing a good job of keeping his composure , getting back on transition defense and remembering to defend the right man.

-Pop's coaching decisions continue to baffle. Starting the game with Finley defending James without any double-team help was simply amazing. James scoring 18 points against that strategy was probably a below average performance by James. Then Pop decided to mix things up but the double-teams he sent at James were way too predictable and the Cavs were able to pick the defense apart with cross court passes.

The backup point guard situation is just getting sad. In the five minutes Vaughn played as the backup point guard in the first half, the Spurs had no field goals and a total of two points. However, that didn't stop Pop from trotting Vaughn out there again in the second half. What's depressing is that the second unit has looked far and away the best this year with Hill running the show, but now it's probably too late to switch back to that alignment.

Pop also needs to figure out what he's going to do with the bigmen surrounding Duncan. Playing three is just too much. He needs to cut out one of Bonner, Gooden or Thomas out of the rotation and allow the chemistry to grow. Trying to rotate four bigs in the playoffs won't work, especially when this team is lacking cohesion without this extra obstacle.

Oh and Finley is not the combination of Michael Cooper, Dennis Johnson and Scottie Pippen. Starting him out isolated against James was like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.

The glass half full look at this game is that the Cavs are a great team who was playing mad while the Spurs, on the other hand, are still coming together. Now San Antonio can start gearing up over the next 13 days and iron out their issues. Or at least that's the hope.

Believe.

[tp2021]

The glass half full look at this game is that the Cavs are a great team who was playing mad while the Spurs, on the other hand, are still coming together. Now San Antonio can start gearing up over the next 13 days and iron out their issues. Or at least that's the hope.


That's really, really disconcerting this late in the season.

[SpursFan0728]

The worse thing about Pop today was that after James exploded to 18pts in the first Q, he STILL said he didn't want to change anything. Pure sample of stubbornness.

[Agloco]

The most disturbing aspect of these late season losses is not that they are occuring, it's how they are occuring. For the first time since I can remember, I see a Spurs team that truly cannot win against some of the other teams in the league. It's not a confidence, injury or chemistry thing either. There are other teams now that are simply better than them. In the past you could always make the argument: playoffs vs regular season. This is distinctly different though. This team is now at a point where they are a playoff contender but no longer a title contender.

It's the sound of inevitability which has come knocking. We shouldn't be too upset however. The Spurs have had a hell of a run.

[ducks]

spurs need an effort to help mason get going next game early

[ducks]

tp needs to stay on the court 42 minutes a night in postseason

[urunobili]

Thanks timvp... your willingness to get this done after this game speaks a lot and very well about you and this site... props... :tu

a question though... do you think the rotations in the PO will look like what we saw today or there's nothing settled?

[duncan228]

Thanks timvp, this one had to be tough to recap.

Duncan's knees are still a big concern for me. I haven't seen anything consistent enough from him to tell me he's any great percentage better. He's not anywhere near his Playoff self.

Mind boggling is a good way to sum this team up at the moment. I hope they can pull it together.

[boutons_deux]

"are still coming together"

It's April 6. This team is dead in the water, mediocrity of mediocrities, not "coming together".

Coming together? GMAFB They're getting worse.

I don't even recognize this team as the Spurs. They have no fire, no seriousness, no commitment, no will to win, just pocketing their undeserved $Ms and thinking about going fishing Real Soon Now.

Anybody know a good bait shop?

[Whisky Dog]

Pop killed Mason's game. Pop refused to play Hill and Bowen the way they should be played. Pop trots out Udoka and Vaughn to kick start offensive droughts. There is no hope, this team is a mess. I just wish there was an explanation.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Look at the Spurs last year heading into the playoffs (April of '08)

Tue 01 vs Golden State W 116-92
Fri 04 @ Utah L 64-90
Sun 06 @ Portland W 72-65
Wed 09 vs Phoenix L 79-96
Fri 11 vs Seattle W 95-74
Sun 13 @ LA Lakers L 85-106
Mon 14 @ Sacramento W 101-98
Wed 16 vs Utah W 109-80


3 teams that were all playoff bound and the Spurs ended up getting throttled.

They still managed to go to the WCF in a season where many thought they would be ousted at the hands of the Suns.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Though it should be noted Ginobili was sitting out some of those games

[EricB]

Ginobili played bad enough today where he probably should've sat out.

[ManuTastic]

Pop killed Mason's game. Pop refused to play Hill and Bowen the way they should be played. Pop trots out Udoka and Vaughn to kick start offensive droughts. There is no hope, this team is a mess. I just wish there was an explanation.

Ditto. Just sad.:depressed

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Ginobili played bad enough today where he probably should've sat out.

Same with everyone not named Parker, Gooden, and Thomas

[crc21209]

Look at the Spurs last year heading into the playoffs (April of '08)

Tue 01 vs Golden State W 116-92
Fri 04 @ Utah L 64-90
Sun 06 @ Portland W 72-65
Wed 09 vs Phoenix L 79-96
Fri 11 vs Seattle W 95-74
Sun 13 @ LA Lakers L 85-106
Mon 14 @ Sacramento W 101-98
Wed 16 vs Utah W 109-80


3 teams that were all playoff bound and the Spurs ended up getting throttled.

They still managed to go to the WCF in a season where many thought they would be ousted at the hands of the Suns.


I agree. I remember some very horrible games last yr around this same time also. It seems that Pop and the Spurs have a big "fuck this" attitude toward the regular season this time around. Plus with Manu going out for a bit and Gooden coming in toward the end of the year this has been the hardest yr to nail down a final rotation. Come playoff time though, I expect the Spurs and Pop to get it right...as they always do. I remember last yr alot of people around here were nervous to start round 1 against the Suns.

[jcrod]

Its very hard to watch the Spurs right now. Pop's subing patterns have always bothered me, but its plain crazy now. He is looking like he is a rookie coach, I wonder wtf the coaches are telling each other to believe these lineups will work eventually.

[Borosai]

I like having Bonner in the rotation because of his shooting, which has been quite consistent, but you are correct about his rebounding: it's just sad.

The Cavs are the new (or old) Spurs. They play defense and have role players playing their roles. The Spurs have lost their way, and it starts with Pop. It's just a big mess.

[Spursmania]

I know we're all saying Pop killed Mason. I have said that. But come on, the guy had some opportunities to shoot and some were wide open shots he just missed. He needs to get a damn backbone and make those shots. Whether he likes what he's expected to do out there or not, he's a professional and payed to play basketball. He needs to get it together and fast. We need him and he's floundering. He hasn't had a good game since Manu's return. Hell, I can't even remember his last good game.

[ElNono]

Look at the Spurs last year heading into the playoffs (April of '08)

Tue 01 vs Golden State W 116-92
Fri 04 @ Utah L 64-90
Sun 06 @ Portland W 72-65
Wed 09 vs Phoenix L 79-96
Fri 11 vs Seattle W 95-74
Sun 13 @ LA Lakers L 85-106
Mon 14 @ Sacramento W 101-98
Wed 16 vs Utah W 109-80


3 teams that were all playoff bound and the Spurs ended up getting throttled.

They still managed to go to the WCF in a season where many thought they would be ousted at the hands of the Suns.

What I do see there is that the opponent barely scored over 100+ points. Actually, just the Lakers. The rest are fairly low scoring affairs. Now, go take a look how many points teams have scored on us the last few weeks...
That is what worries me. Unless they somehow find and flip a switch defensively, we're just not that good offensively to outscore opponents.

[carrao45]

MY REACTION is that the spuurs suck

[anonoftheinternets]

MY REACTION is that the spuurs suck

lol so many laker kiddies around. I am kinda new here, so I was wondering if this is the case every year, have these laker kids been around the past few years as well? esp when they missed the PO, coz they were a lottery team?

:lol

[Spursmania]

MY REACTION is that the spuurs suck

Hey Noobie Troll, you decided to invade the Spurs forum with your crap too-you can stop the trolling now or get your ass to the troll forum where you belong! :stfu:pimpslap

[Spursmania]

lol so many laker kiddies around. I am kinda new here, so I was wondering if this is the case every year, have these laker kids been around the past few years as well? esp when they missed the PO, coz they were a lottery team?

:lol

This pathetic worm CARAO45 decided to come spew some of its crap here. This Noobie troll also started some BS thread intelligently called "wow oh wow" where noobie knocks himself out over the Spurs' loss and begins to trash all over Parker and Eva. Just another dumbass troll doing what dumbass trolls do. Nothing new here.

[Capt Bringdown]

JV wasn't able to get off the bench during most of the regular season - now he's our back up PG.

Mason, Hill, Bowen, Finley and the rest of it. I don't see how all of these items can be attributed to scouting reports and Duncan's creaky knees.

I can't help but feel that we're not putting our best foot forward and are being cheated out of possibilities due to poor leadership.

[DPG21920]

I found myself yelling at my tv about Drew. I kept saying to myself that he was the only one taking shots outside of the offense. It is very evident when you watch him. He can score, but he takes a lot of shots outside the flow of a structured offense.

[tlongII]

What's interesting is that Popovich is basically admitting that they effed up by taking Hill in the 1st round. You would think that he could give the Spurs more than Vaughn?

[Spursmania]

I found myself yelling at my tv about Drew. I kept saying to myself that he was the only one taking shots outside of the offense. It is very evident when you watch him. He can score, but he takes a lot of shots outside the flow of a structured offense.

Very true.

[DPG21920]

What's interesting is that Popovich is basically admitting that they effed up by taking Hill in the 1st round. You would think that he could give the Spurs more than Vaughn?

That is not true at all. Hill was a late 1st, those guys are not expected to do anything anyways. Is Portland admitting they were wrong because they are starting Joel over Oden? Or Miami because Haslem is starting over Beasley?

[crc21209]

That is not true at all. Hill was a late 1st, those guys are not expected to do anything anyways. Is Portland admitting they were wrong because they are starting Joel over Oden? Or Miami because Haslem is starting over Beasley?

Dont pay attention to tlong he never has anything good to say. :lol

[Manufan909]

I found myself yelling at my tv about Drew. I kept saying to myself that he was the only one taking shots outside of the offense. It is very evident when you watch him. He can score, but he takes a lot of shots outside the flow of a structured offense.

When he's making most of his shots and this "structured" offense can't do shit outside of TP, how the fuck is that a bad thing?

[anonoftheinternets]

When he's making most of his shots and this "structured" offense can't do shit outside of TP, how the fuck is that a bad thing?

BECAUSE we need to gel as a team, and win in a structured way, else game 7 in the PO, gooden is going to lay an egg. I can just see Gooden, single handedly winning game 7 on the road, by doing Iso's. :rolleyes

Rather get a loss if it means we get some semblance of system going, or die trying, but i WILL NOT SETTLE FOR some cheap regular season wins right now. If we do get our system right, it wont matter what seed we have, we hav already clinched a spot. :king

now everyone stop running around panicing ..... if the system doesnt work, it doesnt. They will retool, duncan will rest up and return, (just a few months back he was a top 5 MVP candidate and now hes old, and time has caught up to him). :rolleyes

[DPG21920]

When he's making most of his shots and this "structured" offense can't do shit outside of TP, how the fuck is that a bad thing?

It is like when a player takes really bad shots, but makes them. Ya, it is good for one or two games, but over the long haul, it does not bode well.

[ducks]

Ginobili played bad enough today where he probably should've sat out.

he was hurt should have never played
but begged pop and pop gave in
another selfish moment for manu
hurting the spurs just so he could play:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang

[tomtom]

god its just getting worse and worse isnt it. something needs to change soon or spurs are in for a quick first round exit

[Manufan909]

BECAUSE we need to gel as a team, and win in a structured way, else game 7 in the PO, gooden is going to lay an egg. I can just see Gooden, single handedly winning game 7 on the road, by doing Iso's. :rolleyes

Rather get a loss, if it means, we get some semblance of system going, or die trying, but i WILL NOT SETTLE FOR some cheap regular season wins right now. If we do get our system right, it wont matter what seed we have, we hav already clinched a spot. :king

The Spurs system this season is to jack up open 3s. I'd rather have Gooden driving amd possibly getting foul calls, even if he isn't in the O. I hope that can be corrected, of course. Him playing in the O, and continuing to do what he has would be devastating, but I doubt there is enough time. Sorry, I'm on the GAS, I have to back #90.:hat

[Flux451]

DVR gets no love tonight.

[Manufan909]

It is like when a player takes really bad shots, but makes them. Ya, it is good for one or two games, but over the long haul, it does not bode well.

A structured offense based almost exclusively on open 3s doesn't bode well either. And he is taking high percentage shot.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Gooden is not going to fit on this team. I'm officially off the bandwagon. However....since we're playing the worst of any spurs team in recent memory heading into the playoffs, his scoring is keeping us from looking like a total joke in the final scores.
I just will never understand how players like him, with solid athleticism and size, can suck ass at defense. It's beyond me. He's more physically talented than any secondary bigman we've had in this era. And he blows goats for quarters on the defensive end.

How can a professional bball player suck so much ass at knowing how to play D?

[DPG21920]

I like Gooden. He was a no risk signing and has shown some flashes. He is EXACTLY what we thought he was when we got him. If he can just keep up the energy and rebound at a good clip and continue score in spurts, he can help a little. Not enough to invest in him long term, but...

[Trainwreck2100]

Gooden is not going to fit on this team. I'm officially off the bandwagon. However....since we're playing the worst of any spurs team in recent memory heading into the playoffs, his scoring is keeping us from looking like a total joke in the final scores.
I just will never understand how players like him, with solid athleticism and size, can suck ass at defense. It's beyond me. He's more physically talented than any secondary bigman we've had in this era. And he blows goats for quarters on the defensive end.

How can a professional bball player suck so much ass at knowing how to play D?

No shit, this guy was a joke on D in 07 and some people think he'll come in and be some kind of savior in a starting role. Our stater Cs aren't as good as him talent wise but they play better light years better within the system than he does

[spursfaninla]

Drew gooden is scoring whenever he gets the ball, or at least trying, because his scoring is going to earn him more money next year. His defense is not.

His only chance to earn a paycheck next year is for a team to think he is the answer to their need for post scoring. He is not going to learn the spurs defense in 10 games. So his only chance to up his paycheck is to score whenever he gets the ball.

This game showed what we all secretly know, but don't want to admit: the spurs are fools gold. The 3 point shooting, which earlier in the season was carrying this team, has been exposed, and we have little to no scoring outside the big 3 without it.

Unless it resurfaces, we are 1 and done, at best.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Pop is letting Gooden be a ballhog as sort of a Duncan-lite, but we've seen nothing resembling good team defense when both Duncan and Gooden are on the floor together. Gooden wasn't even active on the boards against the Cavs today.

I wanted to believe this could work, but now it's just way too obvious he won't fit in. I think we'll throw him chump change and he'll turn it down for something better.

[Kori Ellis]

he was hurt should have never played
but begged pop and pop gave in
another selfish moment for manu
hurting the spurs just so he could play:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang

Where did anyone say he begged Pop to play today?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think ducks is as senile as hubie brown

[Kori Ellis]

No shit, this guy was a joke on D in 07 and some people think he'll come in and be some kind of savior in a starting role. Our stater Cs aren't as good as him talent wise but they play better light years better within the system than he does

Psst... Pop doesn't care about D anymore apparently. Otherwise Bonner wouldn't be starting and Bowen/Hill wouldn't have their asses glued to the bench.

[ducks]

if he was that sore and pop knew it
he either was an idiot for playing him
or he was an idiot for letting manu talk him into it

manu wants to play
would not surprise if he did not tell pop he was sore
or if pop knew begged him to play

the only problem playoffs are what matters not cavs game today

[Kori Ellis]

if he was that sore and pop knew it
he either was an idiot for playing him
or he was an idiot for letting manu talk him into it

manu wants to play
would not surprise if he did not tell pop he was sore
or if pop knew begged him to play

the only problem playoffs are what matters not cavs game today

Okay, so your previous post was just a made up lie (assumption) on your part.

Got it.

[timvp]

The Gooden move that is most un-Spur-like is when he gets the ball about 18 feet out on the perimeter and instead of making the simple pass to run the offense, he literally dribbles down into the post to post himself up :lol :shootme

It should be a clue that if Tim Duncan never dominates the action like that, it's not what Drew Gooden should be doing. His low basketball IQ combined with his questionable motives and ball hoggish ways can make him downright disruptive to the team, even if he's scoring well. And that's not even talking about his defensive shortcomings.

All that said, this is exactly what any person who has watched Gooden in his career should have expected. Drew Gooden is playing like Drew Gooden. But if he's used properly, he could still be an asset. Kinda like how Pop used Nazr in 2005, except a better offensive player and a worse defensive player.

Give him five minute bursts here and there where he can dominate the action. Don't expect any cohesion from him and don't expect him to do much defensively other than hopefully rebound. It's tricky but it's possible for Pop to get the good out of Gooden while living with the bad.

Like I've said the whole time, I like the idea of Gooden starting. Put him in the starting lineup and go to him early and often in both halves. That allows the Big Three to ease into the game and not have to dominate for 48 minutes. Obviously you don't want Gooden anywhere near a basketball court when the fourth quarter begins but at the beginning of both halves, he can help lessen the pressure.

Gooden off the bench just overwhelms the rest of the bench unit. It turns into Gooden vs. 5 on the offensive end. By putting him into the starting lineup, he's not going to overwhelm the better players on the team.

And finally, Gooden in the starting lineup would allow Pop to go with either Thomas or Bonner depending on what is needed. That way, it'd actually be possible to trim the bigman rotation down to three without completely taking one out of the mix.

[ElNono]

if he was that sore and pop knew it
he either was an idiot for playing him
or he was an idiot for letting manu talk him into it

manu wants to play
would not surprise if he did not tell pop he was sore
or if pop knew begged him to play

the only problem playoffs are what matters not cavs game today

Your hatred for Manu turns into delusion fairly quickly. You should see a professional.

[ducks]

it is the truth

[Kori Ellis]

it is the truth


he was hurt should have never played
but begged pop and pop gave in (YOU MADE THIS UP)
another selfish moment for manu (JUST SO YOU COULD SAY THIS)
hurting the spurs just so he could play

[ElNono]

The Gooden move that is most un-Spur-like is when he gets the ball about 18 feet out on the perimeter and instead of making the simple pass to run the offense, he literally dribbles down into the post to post himself up :lol :shootme

It should be a clue that if Tim Duncan never dominates the action like that, it's not what Drew Gooden should be doing. His low basketball IQ combined with his questionable motives and ball hoggish ways can make him downright disruptive to the team, even if he's scoring well. And that's not even talking about his defensive shortcomings.

All that said, this is exactly what any person who has watched Gooden in his career should have expected. Drew Gooden is playing like Drew Gooden. But if he's used properly, he could still be an asset. Kinda like how Pop used Nazr in 2005, except a better offensive player and a worse defensive player.

Give him five minute bursts here and there where he can dominate the action. Don't expect any cohesion from him and don't expect him to do much defensively other than hopefully rebound. It's tricky but it's possible for Pop to get the good out of Gooden while living with the bad.

Like I've said the whole time, I like the idea of Gooden starting. Put him in the starting lineup and go to him early and often in both halves. That allows the Big Three to ease into the game and not have to dominate for 48 minutes. Obviously you don't want Gooden anywhere near a basketball court when the fourth quarter begins but at the beginning of both halves, he can help lessen the pressure.

Gooden off the bench just overwhelms the rest of the bench unit. It turns into Gooden vs. 5 on the offensive end. By putting him into the starting lineup, he's not going to overwhelm the better players on the team.

And finally, Gooden in the starting lineup would allow Pop to go with either Thomas or Bonner depending on what is needed. That way, it'd actually be possible to trim the bigman rotation down to three without completely taking one out of the mix.

Gooden looks good simply because Bonner is just so bad. When Matt is not nailing treys, he's like a lamp post out there. He gets scored on, he can't rebound and he can't buy a bucket. Just wait until teams get real physical in the playoffs (like Utah/NOH/Lakers). Unless he hits anything from the perimeter it's not going to be pretty seeing him out there.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The Gooden move that is most un-Spur-like is when he gets the ball about 18 feet out on the perimeter and instead of making the simple pass to run the offense, he literally dribbles down into the post to post himself up :lol :shootme

It should be a clue that if Tim Duncan never dominates the action like that, it's not what Drew Gooden should be doing. His low basketball IQ combined with his questionable motives and ball hoggish ways can make him downright disruptive to the team, even if he's scoring well. And that's not even talking about his defensive shortcomings.

All that said, this is exactly what any person who has watched Gooden in his career should have expected. Drew Gooden is playing like Drew Gooden. But if he's used properly, he could still be an asset. Kinda like how Pop used Nazr in 2005, except a better offensive player and a worse defensive player.

Give him five minute bursts here and there where he can dominate the action. Don't expect any cohesion from him and don't expect him to do much defensively other than hopefully rebound. It's tricky but it's possible for Pop to get the good out of Gooden while living with the bad.

Like I've said the whole time, I like the idea of Gooden starting. Put him in the starting lineup and go to him early and often in both halves. That allows the Big Three to ease into the game and not have to dominate for 48 minutes. Obviously you don't want Gooden anywhere near a basketball court when the fourth quarter begins but at the beginning of both halves, he can help lessen the pressure.

Gooden off the bench just overwhelms the rest of the bench unit. It turns into Gooden vs. 5 on the offensive end. By putting him into the starting lineup, he's not going to overwhelm the better players on the team.

And finally, Gooden in the starting lineup would allow Pop to go with either Thomas or Bonner depending on what is needed. That way, it'd actually be possible to trim the bigman rotation down to three without completely taking one out of the mix.

I agree. It seems like the best way to let him do his thing, get some points on that board, and then keep him from fucking us over when the going gets tough. I saw this coming, but I had faith that he'd change his black hole ways and try to be a team guy. What is funny is that he played team ball for like the first 15 seconds of his first game in a Spurs uniform. I was like wha-whaat Gooden passed the ball? Then he started chunking away.

[Trainwreck2100]

The Gooden move that is most un-Spur-like is when he gets the ball about 18 feet out on the perimeter and instead of making the simple pass to run the offense, he literally dribbles down into the post to post himself up :lol :shootme

It should be a clue that if Tim Duncan never dominates the action like that, it's not what Drew Gooden should be doing. His low basketball IQ combined with his questionable motives and ball hoggish ways can make him downright disruptive to the team, even if he's scoring well. And that's not even talking about his defensive shortcomings.

All that said, this is exactly what any person who has watched Gooden in his career should have expected. Drew Gooden is playing like Drew Gooden. But if he's used properly, he could still be an asset. Kinda like how Pop used Nazr in 2005, except a better offensive player and a worse defensive player.

Give him five minute bursts here and there where he can dominate the action. Don't expect any cohesion from him and don't expect him to do much defensively other than hopefully rebound. It's tricky but it's possible for Pop to get the good out of Gooden while living with the bad.

Like I've said the whole time, I like the idea of Gooden starting. Put him in the starting lineup and go to him early and often in both halves. That allows the Big Three to ease into the game and not have to dominate for 48 minutes. Obviously you don't want Gooden anywhere near a basketball court when the fourth quarter begins but at the beginning of both halves, he can help lessen the pressure.

Gooden off the bench just overwhelms the rest of the bench unit. It turns into Gooden vs. 5 on the offensive end. By putting him into the starting lineup, he's not going to overwhelm the better players on the team.

And finally, Gooden in the starting lineup would allow Pop to go with either Thomas or Bonner depending on what is needed. That way, it'd actually be possible to trim the bigman rotation down to three without completely taking one out of the mix.

That would mean Gooden goes up against a starting caliber PF on the defensive end. Say what you want about Bonner at least he tries. I'd rather see Mase switch places with Manu, put him back his comfort zone. And Manu's off the bench again, his high bball iq ballacing out a certain someone's low bball iq

[timvp]

Gooden looks good simply because Bonner is just so bad.I don't know if I agree about Gooden looking good. His stats look good, though.


What is funny is that he played team ball for like the first 15 seconds of his first game in a Spurs uniform. I was like wha-whaat Gooden passed the ball? Then he started chunking away.:lol I remember that pass. I was like "Damn, timvp, I didn't know Gooden could pass like that." Then uh .... I haven't seen that since.


That would mean Gooden goes up against a starting caliber PF on the defensive end. Say what you want about Bonner at least he tries.The Cavs were the best defensive team in the league in one of those years Gooden started. It's possible to scheme around his weaknesses. But Pop would have to actively put him in positions that his basketball IQ can handle ... like Mike Brown used to do.


Gooden a reason to pass the ball.:lol Teams have been searching for that reason since he first picked up a basketball. He's not going to suddenly turn into someone who isn't Drew Gooden.

[ElNono]

I don't know if I agree about Gooden looking good. His stats look good, though.

You know what I mean. A big grabbing boards not named Tim Duncan or Kurt Thomas. I mean, that's why you play a big in the first place, right? Because I think we both agree that defensively between Gooden and Bonner it's a wash.

[HarlemHeat37]

honestly, Gooden IS a ballhog..but I think it's something we actually need on this team right now..

we have a bunch of role players that have no balls and can't create shots on their own..I'd actually be surprised if Pop isn't telling Gooden to put up shots every time he touches it, just like he tells Bonner and Mason..

it's not like the rest of the team is playing any better as a team..

Gooden is what he is..

it would be different if we actually had other options..but Mason has lost his confidence, Hill isn't playing, Jacque has no talent at all, Ime has even less talent, Bonner is too inconsistent with his shooting and aggressiveness..

[Trainwreck2100]

The Cavs were the best defensive team in the league in one of those years Gooden started. It's possible to scheme around his weaknesses. But Pop would have to actively put him in positions that his basketball IQ can handle ... like Mike Brown used to do.



it possible to scheme but probably difficult this late in the season


:lol Teams have been searching for that reason since he first picked up a basketball. He's not going to suddenly turn into someone who isn't Drew Gooden.

yeah i realized the idiocy of that statement so i changed it

[xtremesteven33]

honestly, Gooden IS a ballhog..but I think it's something we actually need on this team right now..

we have a bunch of role players that have no balls and can't create shots on their own..I'd actually be surprised if Pop isn't telling Gooden to put up shots every time he touches it, just like he tells Bonner and Mason..

it's not like the rest of the team is playing any better as a team..

Gooden is what he is..


I dont mind him being a ballhog....its good to see a spurs player whos not afraid to shoot the ball. I get damn tired of seeing Spurs players pass the ball so damn much :lol

[lurker23]

Haven't read much of this thread other than the OP, but I'll throw in some thoughts of my own from this game.

1. Manu Ginobili simply wasn't Manu Ginobili in this game. He drove to the hoop once or twice, but for the most part he just fell in love with the 3-pointer, which is hard to explain because it wasn't going in.

2. Speaking of 3-pointers, the Spurs have to rediscover how to get more open 3-pointers in rhythm. I think part of the reason the Spurs have gone on a major 3-point drought is because they're settling for 3's as an almost-conscious team decision, instead of getting the very best ones in the flow of the offense. The only player who was in rhythm with 3's today was Matt Bonner, and he took himself out of the game with foul trouble.

3. Finley can't guard LeBron. But we knew this already.

4. Related to #3, how obvious is Bowen on LeBron and Hill on Mo Williams? Am I over simplifying things?

5. I know most of you have been saying this for weeks, but now that Pop has tried every rotation under the sun, it's time to go back to what works. We saw a period of times when things were just clicking, and they looked like this:

-Roger Mason at the starting 2 guard, and only the starting 2 guard.
-George Hill at the backup point guard, and in key defensive situations.
-Manu Ginobili coming off the bench.
-Gooden in when you need low-post offense when Timmy's on the bench. Kurt Thomas in when you need defense. Bonner in when you need to spread the floor. It's not that complicated.

[Rogue]

The spurs did a good job in the game against the Cavs which are the league's leader in season records. Lebron is just a beast that no one can stop, it's not a big shame for our defense to let him drop 38pts, i mean even Bruce Bowen still wouldn't be able to make any difference. Pop still has plenty of time to spend making stategies aimed at Lebron and his cavs as the spurs won't face the cavs until the finals, provided the spurs will get there.

[ElNono]

-Roger Mason at the starting 2 guard, and only the starting 2 guard.
-George Hill at the backup point guard, and in key defensive situations.
-Manu Ginobili coming off the bench.
-Gooden in when you need low-post offense when Timmy's on the bench. Kurt Thomas in when you need defense. Bonner in when you need to spread the floor. It's not that complicated.

Mostly agree, and I would add that more Bowen and less Finley when you need to defend a star player, and enough of the Vaughn/Udoka experiments out there, specially JV.

[lurker23]

Oh, and even some of Pop's minor coaching decisions today were odd. For example, the first quarter when Finley was on LeBron, the Spurs were hedging all screens. Then, when Bowen came in to guard LeBron, they decided to switch on all screens. Is it just me, or is that completely backwards?

[Libri]

The spurs did a good job in the game against the Cavs which are the league's leader in season records. Lebron is just a beast that no one can stop, it's not a big shame for our defense to let him drop 38pts, i mean even Bruce Bowen still wouldn't be able to make any difference. Pop still has plenty of time to spend making stategies aimed at Lebron and his cavs as the spurs won't face the cavs until the finals, provided the spurs will get there.

The Spurs would first have to figure out Kobe Bryant.

[timvp]

Oh, and even some of Pop's minor coaching decisions today were odd. For example, the first quarter when Finley was on LeBron, the Spurs were hedging all screens. Then, when Bowen came in to guard LeBron, they decided to switch on all screens. Is it just me, or is that completely backwards?

Good point. And you are going to send double-teams at LeBron when Bowen is guarding him but play LeBron one-on-one when Finley is guarding him. Really, Pop?

I mean, really?

Seriously?














:smchode:

[HarlemHeat37]

little things like what timvp and lurker posted are why I'm STILL confused about this season..I can't wait until the playoffs come, and we can see what Pop will do..he MUST have SOME kind of plan..

[KidCongo]

Did LBJ post up much in this game? I saw a nice fadeaway he hit in the first quarter after posting up Finley in the highlights. Were there anymore?

[timvp]

Did LBJ post up much in this game? I saw a nice fadeaway he hit in the first quarter after posting up Finley in the highlights. Were there anymore?

Naw, that was it. You know LeBron was feeling good going up against Finley when he started going to his non-existent post up game :lol

[KidCongo]

Naw, that was it. You know LeBron was feeling good going up against Finley when he started going to his non-existent post up game :lol

ITS OVER NBA! :lol

[SA210]

Oh, and even some of Pop's minor coaching decisions today were odd. For example, the first quarter when Finley was on LeBron, the Spurs were hedging all screens. Then, when Bowen came in to guard LeBron, they decided to switch on all screens. Is it just me, or is that completely backwards?

[Dingle Barry]

Gooden is a jumbo sized AJ Abrams. As a Texas fan, I can't bear to watch this shit any longer.

[Dingle Barry]

Good point. And you are going to send double-teams at LeBron when Bowen is guarding him but play LeBron one-on-one when Finley is guarding him. Really, Pop?

I mean, really?

Seriously?














:smchode:
Occam's Razor: Pop thinks Finley is Bowen and Bowen is Finley.

[SA210]

Good point. And you are going to send double-teams at LeBron when Bowen is guarding him but play LeBron one-on-one when Finley is guarding him. Really, Pop?

I mean, really?

Seriously?














:smchode:


The producer of sports at News4 told me that Bruce Bowen and Michael Finley are exactly the same Defensively. That there is no difference in either of them, on defense. That Bruce is old and doesn't have it anymore at all.

[crc21209]

The producer of sports at News4 told me that Bruce Bowen and Michael Finley are exactly the same Defensively. That there is no difference in either of them, on defense. That Bruce is old and doesn't have it anymore at all.

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

[HarlemHeat37]

somebody should sticky the post I made about Bowen's defensive performances since January..

[SA210]

somebody should sticky the post I made about Bowen's defensive performances since January..

That same producer says Bruce hasn't done anything for us at all all year long. Send him your post, please.

[SA210]

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

No, that's no joke. I couldn't believe it. He said said Bruce is not the best defender on the team at all, and not even a top defender in the league, at all.

[HarlemHeat37]

does this guy's last name happen to be Popovich?..

[SA210]

does this guy's last name happen to be Popovich?..

No but he claimed to have watched Bruce play this season very carefully and that Bruce has done nothing for the Spurs and isn't capable of doing anything for us either, at all.

[MannyIsGod]

Motherfuck - I had a post typed up and put it in the wrong thread now I'm too lazy to redo it.

Basically I want Gooden to dominate the 2nd unit if Pop is insistant on Starting Manu and his worst decision by far is playing Vaughn. Bowen needs to play more etc etc. Eh fuck it.

[Kamnik]

Oh and Finley is not the combination of Michael Cooper, Dennis Johnson and Scottie Pippen. Starting him out isolated against James was like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You made my morning!

[John_C]

Pop killed Mason's game. Pop refused to play Hill and Bowen the way they should be played. Pop trots out Udoka and Vaughn to kick start offensive droughts. There is no hope, this team is a mess. I just wish there was an explanation.

This is just what I do not understand. Mason and Hill have proven that they are reliable players, either for defense or for the roles they are tasked to fill, yet Pop's mess of a rotation doesn't speak volumes of how confident he is towards the new guys.

13 days to go and the Spurs are still looking for a reliable rotation for the playoffs. Very, very disconcerting indeed.

[sonic21]

thanks timvp :tu

[Trainwreck2100]

Motherfuck - I had a post typed up and put it in the wrong thread now I'm too lazy to redo it.

Basically I want Gooden to dominate the 2nd unit if Pop is insistant on Starting Manu and his worst decision by far is playing Vaughn. Bowen needs to play more etc etc. Eh fuck it.

why don't you just copy and paste it then?

[SenorSpur]

While hopelessly trying to guard Lebron, Finley developed a case of the football version of "happy feet".

[Bukefal]

I really like how Gooden has improved. He just had to found his way in the team, and now he did. Such a great player, he can do everything!!! Go gooden!!

[polandprzem]

Good to know that Finley is our defensive stopper

Good to know that vaughn is our spark from the bench

Good to know that mason is cold bloded assassin

Good to know that Gino is healhy an in game rhythm

Good to know that Tims kneees do not bother him

Good to know that Hill getting plenty of time playing adopting that battle field which is NBA

Good to know that we secured the second seed

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not sure how Gooden's being a "ball hog" is a bad thing, considering a) the unassisted-jump-shot offense the Spurs went to in the second quarter, and b) the team's complete fucking inability to get the ball to Tim Duncan after the first ten minutes of the game. The Spurs finally get someone that can actually create offense that isn't from 24 feet away and we decry how he fucks up "the flow of the offense". News flash: You can't fuck up something that doesn't exist.

PS Great initial reaction, LJ.

[fyatuk]

-Roger Mason, Jr. was headed to another very quiet outing until he got hot for a stretch in the second half. For the first time this season, I saw signs of his confidence being severely rattled. With his role changing from quarter to quarter, it doesn't take a basketball genius to figure out why Mason is second-guessing himself. Hopefully he can get into some sort of rhythm heading into the postseason. If he doesn't, it'd be difficult to envision a championship without Mason being a trustworthy fourth option.

Mason annoyed the hell out of me yesterday. Williams and West each got multiple 3 pointers off him because he was down in the paint when he shouldn't be on defense. If he's going to play defense like that when he's off the ball, he better be hitting 3's almost every time down the court to make it worth the time he's on the court. He seems to have gotten significantly worse defensively over the past few months.


-Jacque Vaughn was once again the backup point guard. On the roster, Vaughn serves a purpose - but it shouldn't be the backup point guard role. The Cavs weren't even guarding him when he had the ball. When he didn't have the ball, the Spurs were literally playing four on five. Unlike Bowen, opposing teams don't even have to respect his jumper once he gets the ball. I could somewhat understand if the Spurs had Vaughn run pick-and-rolls or penetrate and kick but his job is to basically bring the ball up the court and hand it off to the shooting guard. As it is, San Antonio's backup point guard is playing shooting guard even though he can't shoot, score at the rim or play much defense. Mind boggling. Truly mind boggling.

Yep. The Cavs broke the game open with Vaugh on the court, and it wasn't through dumb luck.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Yep. The Cavs broke the game open with Vaughn on the court, and it wasn't through dumb luck.


Exactly. Vaughn came in and Mo Williams went off. Cavs defense sagged off Vaughn, no Spurs scoring in the 2nd quarter. Double digit lead, end of story. Before that, Spurs were playing Cavs even.

[ploto]

Pop also needs to figure out what he's going to do with the bigmen urrounding Duncan. Playing three is just too much. He needs to cut out one of Bonner, Gooden or Thomas out of the rotation and allow the chemistry to grow. Trying to rotate four bigs in the playoffs won't work, especially when this team is lacking cohesion without this extra obstacle.
You know you are preaching to the choir on this one with me. I have said for years that the way Pop does this keeps all three of them from being fully ready (eg, Rob, Nazr, and Rasho). The problem for me, though, like always, is that the one I want to sit is the one he is starting. I think that Thomas has been sorely underutilized and that playing Bonner because he can hit three's has been a big part of wearing Tim down. When Drew came, I knew it would limit Kurt's minutes, and I think that is a bad thing. If one goes out of the rotation, it will be Kurt. And, I am glad you called Gooden a ball hog first. I have wanted to post that but feared I would get lambasted for saying it. I know his offense off the bench is nice to have, especially with Manu starting, but you have to know that if he gets the ball, it is not coming back out.

[Obstructed_View]

Mason annoyed the hell out of me yesterday. Williams and West each got multiple 3 pointers off him because he was down in the paint when he shouldn't be on defense. If he's going to play defense like that when he's off the ball, he better be hitting 3's almost every time down the court to make it worth the time he's on the court. He seems to have gotten significantly worse defensively over the past few months.

Blame Pop for that. The Spurs played Lebron straight up when Fin was defending him in the first quarter, and then in the 4th they started trapping the ball handler regardless of who it was. Mason had to rotate down to cover the person left alone in the paint. That they didn't stop doing it after the first wide open three just baffles me, but again, it's on the coach, not the players.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Good point. And you are going to send double-teams at LeBron when Bowen is guarding him but play LeBron one-on-one when Finley is guarding him. Really, Pop?

I mean, really?

Seriously?














:smchode:


This was one of the most purely mind boggling things of all!! It makes no sense! IT's as if Pop has been hypnotized into seeing Finley as Bowen and Bowen as Finley. This move alone makes me still think Pop is going to go with the bread and butter after all when playoffs start, because its just wayyyy too too weird for him to be doing stuff like this and be serious about it.

[Dex]

Good point. And you are going to send double-teams at LeBron when Bowen is guarding him but play LeBron one-on-one when Finley is guarding him. Really, Pop?

I mean, really?

Seriously?

This was driving me crazy as well. Or the fact that half the time Bowen was even on the flo0r, he was either switching every pick or guarding Mo Williams, while Pop let Ime OkeyDokey try his luck with Lebron.

[Borosai]

I don't mind Gooden being Gooden: it's better to have him attack the rim than to see three-point shot after three-point shot (for the most part, bricks). In fact, yesterday he made a cross-court pass to Udoka who proceeded to miss a wide-open three, so he doesn't hog it all the time.

What I would like to see is some chemistry between Manu and Gooden. Use Manu's penetration to open up some lanes for Drew, and either one can finish at the rim (at least). Manu can attack, finish, or pass pretty well, and Gooden can catch and finish, or maybe (hopefully) grab the rebound. But yeah, his D isn't good: he failed to trap one of the Cavs' guards yesterday (which led to an easy score) and he went braindead on fastbreak defense by leaving the lane wide open for a trailer.

[Marcus Bryant]

Thank the wunderbar front office. This team was just so good that they could give away talent for $, as if the championship window will last for eternity.

[MoSpur]

Pop better start giving the starting position to Bruce quickly. Guys like James, Durant, Brandon Roy, and the like are gonna go off like LeBron did yesterday in the first quarter if Finley is guarding them.

I will stand by what I say if Finley continues to start in the playoffs, which is Finley must have some real dirt on Pop for Pop to continues to let Finley start and play more than 20 minutes a game.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pop killed Mason's game. Pop refused to play Hill and Bowen the way they should be played. Pop trots out Udoka and Vaughn to kick start offensive droughts. There is no hope, this team is a mess. I just wish there was an explanation.

There is. Pop. Between his substitution patterns, his strategy... what more do you need?

He looks dazed and confused, and the players are responding accordingly.

He needs to streamline things:

* give backup PG duties back to Hill
* only play Mason at the SG (and a starter at that)
* bring Manu off the bench
* give Bowen Finley's minutes, give Finley Bowen's
* start Thomas next to TD. Save Bonner for situational three point shooting. It's time to quit standing around hoping for Bonner to turn into Robert Horry, as fun as it watching him pull down as many rebounds a night as I do.

I don't think we have enough to win it this year anyway, but the above is our best chance to do so and also gear up for the future. Forget smallball, right now Pop is playing stupidball.

[quentin_compson]

As far as the health issues go, I don't think that there is anything that Timmy, Manu and Pop (or even we here at Spurstalk :D) can do but hope. Maybe they can get back a few more percentage points till the playoffs start - if not, we aren't going very far anyway.

This loss against the Cavs is certainly no reason for a meltdown. Even with TD and Manu closer to full strength, this would have been a very tough win to get. Cleveland is the league's best team right now, they have the best player in the league, they play very solid on the defensive end, they had lost just once at home all season - and they were desperate for a win after uncharacteristically losing two in a row.

That being said, it still hurts that the Spurs were in the game for just one quarter before getting thrashed. If Pop wouldn't have gone bizarro again, we might have had more of a chance.

I think Gooden needs to start every second half from now on. He could help avoiding those ugly offensive stretches the Spurs seem to go through virtually every game in the third quarter.

Pop's strategy seemed to be hoping for LeBron laughing so hard at Finley trying to guard him that he hurts himself - unfortunately, it didn't work.