And the Spurs pay for their hubris.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ownership and management thought, after the 2007 title, that they had figured it out. They had found that balance between winning championships and profitability. Lauded, they were, by many in the media, who focused on Pop's coaching style and his system, but as well on their personnel and payroll decisions. Not to mention their love of Luxury Tax payouts.

Many fans believed this nonsense as well. Of course, had the Mavs not pulled the luck of the draw in the 1st round of that playoffs with the Warriors, 2007 might well have had a different outcome for the Spurs.

So good, the Spurs thought they were, they could gift talent to a team in their division for nothing but to save a few bucks. Naturally during the following season they would give up a 1st round pick to land a player at that same position.

As it stands, the Spurs pin their hopes on yet another magical free agent summer going forward, content to piss away the few remaining seasons left of one of the greatest bigmen ever to play the game.

[mexicanjunior]

I don't think I've ever seen such a surly post from you...

[DMX7]

The rest of the NBA got better this season and we got worse.

[tp2021]

The rest of the NBA got better this season and we got hurt.

[ducks]

Ownership and management thought, after the 2007 title, that they had figured it out. They had found that balance between winning championships and profitability. Lauded, they were, by many in the media, who focused on Pop's coaching style and his system, but as well on their personnel and payroll decisions. Not to mention their love of Luxury Tax payouts.

Many fans believed this nonsense as well. Of course, had the Mavs not pulled the luck of the draw in the 1st round of that playoffs with the Warriors, 2007 might well have had a different outcome for the Spurs.

So good, the Spurs thought they were, they could gift talent to a team in their division for nothing but to save a few bucks. Naturally during the following season they would give up a 1st round pick to land a player at that same position.

As it stands, the Spurs pin their hopes on yet another magical free agent summer going forward, content to piss away the few remaining seasons left of one of the greatest bigmen ever to play the game.

so would you have supported trading manu for someone else that would have less chance of breaking down

[ElNono]

Ownership and management thought, after the 2007 title, that they had figured it out. They had found that balance between winning championships and profitability. Lauded, they were, by many in the media, who focused on Pop's coaching style and his system, but as well on their personnel and payroll decisions. Not to mention their love of Luxury Tax payouts.

Many fans believed this nonsense as well. Of course, had the Mavs not pulled the luck of the draw in the 1st round of that playoffs with the Warriors, 2007 might well have had a different outcome for the Spurs.

So good, the Spurs thought they were, they could gift talent to a team in their division for nothing but to save a few bucks. Naturally during the following season they would give up a 1st round pick to land a player at that same position.

As it stands, the Spurs pin their hopes on yet another magical free agent summer going forward, content to piss away the few remaining seasons left of one of the greatest bigmen ever to play the game.

We could have arguably won it all last season if not for the lopsided trade that landed Gasol in LA, something the Spurs had absolutely nothing to do with. I figured I would add that since you seem to have missed it from your revisionist history of last season.

[ducks]

spurs had some bad luck with the schedule and the plane thing against the osers last year

[Marcus Bryant]

While the Spurs perhaps could not have predicted the Gasol trade, they certainly should have expected that the rest of the league would find ways to improve...and that giving up talent for profit might not have been such a great idea.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree that they should have acquired an athletic SF..

everything else is irrelevant though..

the backup PG position was supposed to be fixed with Hill..and we were supposed to have Mahinmi playing this season..

nevertheless, after 2 straight years without a title, I would expect some changes this off-season..Bowen, Udoka, Vaughn, and Oberto are probably gone according to their contracts..

this is going to be a very important off-season..

[spurs1990]

We could have arguably won it all last season if not for the lopsided trade that landed Gasol in LA, something the Spurs had absolutely nothing to do with. I figured I would add that since you seem to have missed it from your revisionist history of last season.

What the fuck?

If Pau Gasol didn't get traded, we would have won the champsionship?

Oh ok, well if the Spurs shot 100% from the field, then they probably would have advanced as well.


MB made an excellent point in that the FO is wasting Timmy's years while he still has fuel in the tank.

Those thrifty chickens have and are still coming home to roost.

[ducks]

spurs picked Mahinmi
hopping he would be playing now
they picked splitter thinking he would be playing now

[ElNono]

What the fuck?

If Pau Gasol didn't get traded, we would have won the champsionship?

Oh ok, well if the Spurs shot 100% from the field, then they probably would have advanced as well.


MB made an excellent point in that the FO is wasting Timmy's years while he still has fuel in the tank.

Those thrifty chickens have and are still coming home to roost.

It was a lopsided trade. Boston got better too, but they had to give up talent and live through years of mediocrity to do so.
But we can talk now that we know how things developed, while the decisions that are being criticized were before any of these thing happened.

And it's even more incredibly easy to tell other people to take risks and spend their money. As of right now, we got 4 championship banners hanging from the rafters. That's 4 more banners than a whole lot of other more resourceful teams in this league.

[HarlemHeat37]

the Lakers DID have to go through pain to get Gasol though..they had to trade Shaq to pick up assets that would later be traded..they missed the playoffs once, which got them Bynum..they got higher picks, since they weren't a great playoff seed for 2 years..

[ElNono]

the Lakers DID have to go through pain to get Gasol though..they had to trade Shaq to pick up assets that would later be traded..they missed the playoffs once, which got them Bynum..they got higher picks, since they weren't a great playoff seed for 2 years..

While I agree that having to watch Kwame Brown was painful (:lol), there's no way in hell you can trade him for a guy like Gasol. And the pain, if anything, was fairly short. How long did Boston suffer like a bitch until they had enough to rebuild their entire team?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

so would you have supported trading manu for someone else that would have less chance of breaking down

:lol ducks, go beat off to your Tony Parker bobblehead and call it a night.

He's talking about things like trading Scola and refusing to address the need for a Bowen replacement.

[ducks]

trading scola was smart
could have got more
scola hatted pop
he could not handle him

[HarlemHeat37]

that's the NBA now though..there are a number of cheap teams are going to trade great players for expiring contracts and draft picks..LA had a good offer that satisfied Memphis..obviously from a talent perspective, the Lakers took advantage..

the Lakers have taken advantage of teams for decades..they've gotten most of their players due to the location of the city attracting free agents..due to other players asking for trades, or demanding to be drafted there(Kobe, IIRC)..due to financial problems of other teams..

sadly, they're always going to have these advantages..but in this case, they did have a good deal..

honestly, Manu's deal might be able to get us something like that this off-season, as bad as that sounds..

[E20]

Got damn ducks.

I know you try hard to make yourself look like a person who has no knowledge of basketball, but shieet you are trying too hard.

[ducks]

how many years does chandler have left?
spurs have expiring contracts (bowen-oberta)
chandler boards well and would help duncan
and can jump
oh and tp could throw him alley-oops

[Indazone]

Thanks for Scola. Much appreciated :D

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090315/capt.e28144b0048e45aba69566aad5005d5b.spurs_rocket s_basketball_htr114.jpg

[ducks]

foul on scola with the off arm

[RC's Boss]

Thanks for Scola. Much appreciated :D

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090315/capt.e28144b0048e45aba69566aad5005d5b.spurs_rocket s_basketball_htr114.jpg

What does Scola have to do w/ this???? IF he were here, we'd still be in bad shape w/ Manu out. You can keep Scola, what we need NOW is a perimeter scorer from the 2 or 3, which is what I personally was hoping for.

[DMX7]

The rest of the NBA got better this season and we got hurt.

It's a product of us getting older and not any deeper.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's a product of us getting older and not any deeper.

I think we are deeper. But I think the problem lies of having too many of the same type of players. Spot up shooters who can't break down a defense, aren't athletic and that can't play defense. The only guy that can play great defense is the worst offensive guy and is turning 38 next year.

Another problem we have is not having a distinguished big man next to Tim. We just have a bunch of average joe's I guess you could say. Scola could be that guy.

[RC's Boss]

I think we are deeper. But I think the problem lies of having too many of the same type of players. Spot up shooters who can't break down a defense, aren't athletic and that can't play defense. The only guy that can play great defense is the worst offensive guy and is turning 38 next year.

Another problem we have is not having a distinguished big man next to Tim. We just have a bunch of average joe's I guess you could say. Scola could be that guy.

Yeah, even Mason... While he can not only spot up, but also run off screens and shoot it, he still lacks in the penetration dept.... (Beavis & Butthead would be laughing at that right now!) Tony will be like Paul on the perimeter, no wing player to break down defenses:depressed

[objective]

Ownership and management thought, after the 2007 title, that they had figured it out. They had found that balance between winning championships and profitability. Lauded, they were, by many in the media, who focused on Pop's coaching style and his system, but as well on their personnel and payroll decisions. Not to mention their love of Luxury Tax payouts.

Many fans believed this nonsense as well. Of course, had the Mavs not pulled the luck of the draw in the 1st round of that playoffs with the Warriors, 2007 might well have had a different outcome for the Spurs.

So good, the Spurs thought they were, they could gift talent to a team in their division for nothing but to save a few bucks. Naturally during the following season they would give up a 1st round pick to land a player at that same position.

As it stands, the Spurs pin their hopes on yet another magical free agent summer going forward, content to piss away the few remaining seasons left of one of the greatest bigmen ever to play the game.

Pretty much what I've been telling people since 2007. That title led to bad decisions, and the damage is done.

The Spurs aren't legit contenders anymore, and they weren't before Manu's season was ended. They don't have the talent. Period.

And there's no way to re-stock the cupboards unless there's a miracle like a Pau Gasol-type collusion or James Gist turns into James Worthy.

Ian Mahinmi will be off the roster by July 15th (I think more likely than not, at least 51-49 that he's gone). There's no first round pick this summer, and even if there was, Pop would play some washed up completely shot vet instead anyway. Tiago Splitter will never be a Spur. Michael Finley will still be on the rost with a no-trade clause. Ditto for Kurt Thomas. Bonner will be under contract.

There's no money for free agency even if the economy was awesome. The most they can do is re-sign Drew Gooden (no difference maker) or sign Rasheed Wallace (no difference maker at this point in his career). There's nothing they can do.

The Spurs flat out weren't talented enough to be throwing away good players who were available only to them at a small, reasonable contract like Scola.

And when you talk about hubris don't forget how the Spurs handled Splitter. While Rudy Fernandez was getting wined and dined and begged by all the Portland top brass according to blazer boards at the time, RC, Lindsey and Pop all sat around town twiddling their thumbs refusing to guarantee Splitter whatever he wanted with regards to playing time to get him to to sign the contract. Paying him no respect while expecting him to give up many millions of dollars, Splitter is left with Tau singing in his ear about how important he is and how much he's worth.

[rascal]

While the Spurs perhaps could not have predicted the Gasol trade, they certainly should have expected that the rest of the league would find ways to improve...and that giving up talent for profit might not have been such a great idea.


This was exactly my point in the summer of 2007. That other teams would not stay the same so the spurs need to also try to improve instead of being content that the 2007 team was going to be good enough with no upgrade in talent.

[Extra Stout]

If the Big 3 are healthy going into next year's playoffs, the Spurs are still too shaky on defense to play the way they have to play to win championships.

And the odds of the Big 3 being healthy are themselves pretty shaky. Manu Ginobili's health problems are pretty typical at his age for a guy who threw his body around in his twenties the way he did. Assuming he's suddenly going to perk up without having to give up being Manu Ginobili is more wishful thinking than realistic hope.

Tim Duncan has a loooooooot of miles on that odometer. The hypothesis that he would age gracefully assumed that his knees wouldn't act up the way they are acting up. The symptoms of tendonosis may clear up with rest, but the condition is chronic. This 15 and 8 Tim Duncan may well be the new normal.

Signs point to the era of Spurs dominance being over.

[SenorSpur]

So good, the Spurs thought they were, they could gift talent to a team in their division for nothing but to save a few bucks. Naturally during the following season they would give up a 1st round pick to land a player at that same position.

Had that Scola trade not been such a blantant salary dump and had the Spurs gotten some young player back from Houston in return (i.e. Carl Landry for example) it would have softened the blow somehwat and not reflected so terribly on thte franchise. However, because they were dead set on dumping Jackie Butler's albatross contract, they set themselves up for this. Same as Denver dumping Camby to the Clippers for virtually nothing. It serves them right for listening to Larry Brown and trading for Butler, in the first place. Since when LB become the guru on all things personnel?

[mexicanjunior]

Pretty much what I've been telling people since 2007. That title led to bad decisions, and the damage is done.

The Spurs aren't legit contenders anymore, and they weren't before Manu's season was ended. They don't have the talent. Period.

And there's no way to re-stock the cupboards unless there's a miracle like a Pau Gasol-type collusion or James Gist turns into James Worthy.

Ian Mahinmi will be off the roster by July 15th (I think more likely than not, at least 51-49 that he's gone). There's no first round pick this summer, and even if there was, Pop would play some washed up completely shot vet instead anyway. Tiago Splitter will never be a Spur. Michael Finley will still be on the rost with a no-trade clause. Ditto for Kurt Thomas. Bonner will be under contract.

There's no money for free agency even if the economy was awesome. The most they can do is re-sign Drew Gooden (no difference maker) or sign Rasheed Wallace (no difference maker at this point in his career). There's nothing they can do.

The Spurs flat out weren't talented enough to be throwing away good players who were available only to them at a small, reasonable contract like Scola.

And when you talk about hubris don't forget how the Spurs handled Splitter. While Rudy Fernandez was getting wined and dined and begged by all the Portland top brass according to blazer boards at the time, RC, Lindsey and Pop all sat around town twiddling their thumbs refusing to guarantee Splitter whatever he wanted with regards to playing time to get him to to sign the contract. Paying him no respect while expecting him to give up many millions of dollars, Splitter is left with Tau singing in his ear about how important he is and how much he's worth.

Dead on... :toast

[Marcus Bryant]

In addition to believing they could give talent away in '07, they also thought they could keep the supporting cast together, instead of seeking an injection of new, younger blood.

The '07 title was great, but with respect to making personnel decisions for the future, it was fool's gold.

Another wrinkle is that the Spurs' personnel strategy assumed that the Big 3 would continue to be able to play at their high level over the next 3 seasons, until the wonderful summer of 2010 would allow them to bring in more talent to shoulder the load.

Such a strategy was easily exposed once once one of the Big 3 was at less than 100%.

[Marcus Bryant]

If the Big 3 are healthy going into next year's playoffs, the Spurs are still too shaky on defense to play the way they have to play to win championships.

And the odds of the Big 3 being healthy are themselves pretty shaky. Manu Ginobili's health problems are pretty typical at his age for a guy who threw his body around in his twenties the way he did. Assuming he's suddenly going to perk up without having to give up being Manu Ginobili is more wishful thinking than realistic hope.

Tim Duncan has a loooooooot of miles on that odometer. The hypothesis that he would age gracefully assumed that his knees wouldn't act up the way they are acting up. The symptoms of tendonosis may clear up with rest, but the condition is chronic. This 15 and 8 Tim Duncan may well be the new normal.

Signs point to the era of Spurs dominance being over.


In general, I don't have a problem with the Spurs assuming that Duncan would be able to play at some decent percentage of his peak ability (~85-90%). Without him at such a level, they wouldn't have a shot at another title.

Perhaps we are at that point now. If so, it's been one hell of a ride and TD is the greatest Spur of all time.

Meanwhile, because Peter Holt didn't want to incur the cost of $20 mil over 3 years, one of the would be answers to this problem wears a different uniform. $6.67 mil per is probably the average salary for a NBA big. Hope those Lux Tax checks were worth it, Holt Cat.

[Marcus Bryant]

Had that Scola trade not been such a blantant salary dump and had the Spurs gotten some young player back from Houston in return (i.e. Carl Landry for example) it would have softened the blow somehwat and not reflected so terribly on thte franchise. However, because they were dead set on dumping Jackie Butler's albatross contract, they set themselves up for this. Same as Denver dumping Camby to the Clippers for virtually nothing. It serves them right for listening to Larry Brown and trading for Butler, in the first place. Since when LB become the guru on all things personnel?

Part of the reason the Scola trade happened was that Holt Cat was sold on the investment in international scouting as a way to add great talent on the cheap. It's great when you can add a Emmanuel Ginobili to your team for 2 years and $3 mil, or whatever it was. It's quite another when that talent will cost you $20 mil over 3 years. Another reason it happened was that Holt Cat fell in love with the Lux Tax payments. Now if the Spurs couldn't figure out that Luis Scola would be able to make the transition to the NBA and play very well then we have larger problems. The fact that the Spurs as an organization were willing to give that up to boost their profit in the near term says plenty about how they view their loyal fan base. A fan base that provided them one of the sweetest arena deals in all of American professional sport.

[Kori Ellis]

trading scola was smart
could have got more
scola hatted pop
he could not handle him

Are you just making up things in all your posts now?

[Marcus Bryant]

And when you talk about hubris don't forget how the Spurs handled Splitter. While Rudy Fernandez was getting wined and dined and begged by all the Portland top brass according to blazer boards at the time, RC, Lindsey and Pop all sat around town twiddling their thumbs refusing to guarantee Splitter whatever he wanted with regards to playing time to get him to to sign the contract. Paying him no respect while expecting him to give up many millions of dollars, Splitter is left with Tau singing in his ear about how important he is and how much he's worth.


The Spurs were behind the 8 ball from the start with Splitter, so I'm not really that pissed about it. Given how the other players who were drafted after him have fared in the league, taking a flyer on a player like him wasn't that big of a mistake. Then they were stuck with the rookie scale contract limitations.

Perhaps kissing his ass a little more or offering a starting gig (I'm not sure it's been settled that the Spurs did not do that) would have helped. But at the end of the day, the euros talked.

Scola's case was much more egregious, even before the trade. The Spurs were still spouting the line that he had some kind of horrible buyout fee in '06/early '07 (IIRC) and of course he signs for 3 years, $10 mil the moment another team acquires his rights.

That's what sucking on that Lux Tax teat all of those years gets you, Holt Cat.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Scola trade to Houston definitely left me scratching my head, I'm not sure if that represented a show of bravado on the Spurs' FO part, thinking we were that much better than our conference rival...I don't know. And I do think there were several times the Spurs have been a little too conservative in their spending, thus missing out on some free agent opportunities along the way. Of course I'm not the one scratching the checks so that's easy for me to say.

But the Spurs did pursue Maggette, they did pursue Wallace and Camby and Carter. So I don't think they were resting on the big 3 being able to carry the team. I think this team is so handcuffed by its budget that they're not going to go over the cap. We see the effects of that thinking when a key player is hurt, but in all honesty, if Manu had played injury free this year, the Spurs' strategy would still look golden.

[SenorSpur]

Part of the reason the Scola trade happened was that Holt Cat was sold on the investment in international scouting as a way to add great talent on the cheap. It's great when you can add a Emmanuel Ginobili to your team for 2 years and $3 mil, or whatever it was. It's quite another when that talent will cost you $20 mil over 3 years. Another reason it happened was that Holt Cat fell in love with the Lux Tax payments. Now if the Spurs couldn't figure out that Luis Scola would be able to make the transition to the NBA and play very well then we have larger problems. The fact that the Spurs as an organization were willing to give that up to boost their profit in the near term says plenty about how they view their loyal fan base. A fan base that provided them one of the sweetest arena deals in all of American professional sport.

Very sobering thoughts.
To exacerbate the situation, Scola is playing very well, as a starter for a division rival. To further rub salt into the wound, he's doing so on a very cheap contract. No wonder Pop wants to spit every time he sees the guy.

I've always said that, after Tony and Manu, they went to the international well, way too often. Many times at the expense of domestic talent. Several of those Euro players drafted, during the post Tony and Manu period, will never see the inside of an NBA arena. I guess it's not surprising. I see the same philosophy used in free agency. They'd rather focus on the "end-of-career" vet, who was willing to play for the minimum, versus the mid-career free agent, who could play a vital role and make a contribution for a longer period of time.

I get the need to be fiscally responsible, but you have an obligation to your "future Hall of Fame power forward" to field a championship-contending team now. After all, he gave the franchise a bit of a hometown discount to resign. Where's the obligation to him?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I get the need to be fiscally responsible, but you have an obligation to your "future Hall of Fame power forward" to field a championship-contending team now. After all, he gave the franchise a bit of a hometown discount to resign. Where's the obligation to him?


True, and when his run is over, the championship run for SA could very well be over as well. Capitalize when you can.

[MoSpur]

The only thing I disagreed with was them trading Scola for nothing and the re-signing of Michael Finley. They tried to get Maggette, but he opted for more money from Golden State.

[I Love Me Some Me]

What a bunch of biggity bitches.

Real easy to sit at your keyboard and tell someone else what to do with their money, and how much profit they should try and make. The goal of this franchise has always been to remain as competitive as possible while making money. Unless you can provide a specific alternative plan (i.e. - they should have drafted this guy who was available instead of that guy...they should have acquired this guy in free agency for this contract...they should have made this trade that was offered but decined, etc...) then it's really irrelevant for anyone to criticize the route they took. Especially considering the success they've had on the court while turning a profit in such a small market. You sit here and post like you could have done it better...well, tell me what you would have done that would have created more success and equal profitability.

[Marcus Bryant]

What a bunch of biggity bitches.

Real easy to sit at your keyboard and tell someone else what to do with their money, and how much profit they should try and make. The goal of this franchise has always been to remain as competitive as possible while making money. Unless you can provide a specific alternative plan (i.e. - they should have drafted this guy who was available instead of that guy...they should have acquired this guy in free agency for this contract...they should have made this trade that was offered but decined, etc...) then it's really irrelevant for anyone to criticize the route they took. Especially considering the success they've had on the court while turning a profit in such a small market. You sit here and post like you could have done it better...well, tell me what you would have done that would have created more success and equal profitability.

The funny thing is, "someone else" expects me to give them my money, as well as the taxpayers', when it suits them.

You actually need someone to point out to you the "specific alternative plan"?

[Capt Bringdown]

I still don't understand the dynamics of the Scola trade...didn't we end up signing Bonner for essentially the same money as we would've paid for Scola?

I agree, the 2007 title came at a terrible price. Very strange year. I guess after the Spurs swept the Cavs, we thought we had the NBA all figured out.

Good Lord, is it true we'll see Finley in a Spurs uni again next year? I wish I could say it going to get worse before it gets better, but it appears it's just going to get worse and worse.

[manufor3]

god you fans are spoiled.

[Marcus Bryant]

I still don't understand the dynamics of the Scola trade...didn't we end up signing Bonner for essentially the same money as we would've paid for Scola?

Well, no. Bonner cost $9 mil over 3 years while Scola would have cost the Spurs $20 mil over 3 years (including the cost of Butler's contract, plus lux tax paid and lux tax rebates foregone).

edit: I mean yes and no. Yes, the contracts would have been the same, but the true cost to the Spurs would have been different.



I agree, the 2007 title came at a terrible price. Very strange year. I guess after the Spurs swept the Cavs, we thought we had the NBA all figured out.

Good Lord, is it true we'll see Finley in a Spurs uni again next year? I wish I could say it going to get worse before it gets better, but it appears it's just going to get worse and worse.

Yes, Finley is likely to be a Spur next season while Bruce is likely to not be on the roster anymore.

[Marcus Bryant]

god you fans are spoiled.

Sadly, the front office and ownership are worse.

[SenorSpur]

Yes, Finley is likely to be a Spur next season while Bruce is likely to not be on the roster anymore.

Try to explain that one away. Finley as the Spurs swingman of the present? How is it even possible?

[Manufan909]

I still don't understand the dynamics of the Scola trade...didn't we end up signing Bonner for essentially the same money as we would've paid for Scola?

I agree, the 2007 title came at a terrible price. Very strange year. I guess after the Spurs swept the Cavs, we thought we had the NBA all figured out.

Good Lord, is it true we'll see Finley in a Spurs uni again next year? I wish I could say it going to get worse before it gets better, but it appears it's just going to get worse and worse.

Hopefully he'll be worn out by all the fucking minutes he played this season, and retire. Otherwise, yes. Hope Gist and Hairston can show Pop how fucking retarded it would be to start Fin in the summer league/preseason/early season.

[Marcus Bryant]

Try to explain that one away. Finley as the Spurs swingman of the present? How is it even possible?

He's got a player option for next season.

The Spurs will pay Bruce $2 mil to go away instead of $4 mil to play next season.

[spurs_50_21]

I agree that they should have acquired an athletic SF..

everything else is irrelevant though..

the backup PG position was supposed to be fixed with Hill..and we were supposed to have Mahinmi playing this season..

nevertheless, after 2 straight years without a title, I would expect some changes this off-season..Bowen, Udoka, Vaughn, and Oberto are probably gone according to their contracts..

this is going to be a very important off-season..


no one wants to come,the only way spurs can get star players is thru draft or developing them.we all can not be boston and buy a championship,or get a gift in one of the worst trades ever like lakers.

[I Love Me Some Me]

The funny thing is, "someone else" expects me to give them my money, as well as the taxpayers', when it suits them.

You actually need someone to point out to you the "specific alternative plan"?

You're under no obligation to give them money...they have an obligation to their ownership to turn a profit.

And I do need someone to point out specific alternatives. All I've read so far is a bunch of no-nothing blowhards complain about the way things were done, with nothing to offer in terms of how it should have been. If you know of a better way, share it with us.

[StoneBuddha]

Wow, this thread is re-hashing lots of bad memories. :bang

I think I need a little more to digest the Ginobili news before finishing this thread out. Too many what if's that panned out poorly for the Spurs. Sigh.

It feels like the early part of the decade, where the Spurs needed to rebuild in a bad way to get over the hump, only Duncan is no longer in his prime. Who knows, maybe some combination of Ian/Splittler/Gist/Hill can be the youth infusion to jump start the Spurs again.

[SpursWench21]

Pretty much what I've been telling people since 2007. That title led to bad decisions, and the damage is done.

The Spurs aren't legit contenders anymore, and they weren't before Manu's season was ended. They don't have the talent. Period.

And there's no way to re-stock the cupboards unless there's a miracle like a Pau Gasol-type collusion or James Gist turns into James Worthy.

Ian Mahinmi will be off the roster by July 15th (I think more likely than not, at least 51-49 that he's gone). There's no first round pick this summer, and even if there was, Pop would play some washed up completely shot vet instead anyway. Tiago Splitter will never be a Spur. Michael Finley will still be on the rost with a no-trade clause. Ditto for Kurt Thomas. Bonner will be under contract.

There's no money for free agency even if the economy was awesome. The most they can do is re-sign Drew Gooden (no difference maker) or sign Rasheed Wallace (no difference maker at this point in his career). There's nothing they can do.

The Spurs flat out weren't talented enough to be throwing away good players who were available only to them at a small, reasonable contract like Scola.

And when you talk about hubris don't forget how the Spurs handled Splitter. While Rudy Fernandez was getting wined and dined and begged by all the Portland top brass according to blazer boards at the time, RC, Lindsey and Pop all sat around town twiddling their thumbs refusing to guarantee Splitter whatever he wanted with regards to playing time to get him to to sign the contract. Paying him no respect while expecting him to give up many millions of dollars, Splitter is left with Tau singing in his ear about how important he is and how much he's worth.


+1 Well put sir...those are some solid points. I hope the front office gets its act together and scrambles a bit earlier (due to this news) to set us up nicely for 09-10. Regardless, lets see how much damage we can still cause in the west. Go Spurs!:flag:

[Marcus Bryant]

You're under no obligation to give them money...they have an obligation to their ownership to turn a profit.


The citizens of Bexar County are, in fact, under such an obligation.

And I included the ownership, who took public money under the guise of it enabling them to compete for championships throughout the life of the arena and instead have pocketed it.




And I do need someone to point out specific alternatives. All I've read so far is a bunch of no-nothing blowhards complain about the way things were done, with nothing to offer in terms of how it should have been. If you know of a better way, share it with us.

ROFL. Pay attention more.

[ElNono]

The citizens of Bexar County are, in fact, under such an obligation.

No they're not. They got asked to vote and they agreed to give that tax money to the Spurs. Nobody twisted their arms to vote for the venue tax extension.

[I Love Me Some Me]

The citizens of Bexar County are, in fact, under such an obligation.

And I included the ownership, who took public money under the guise of it enabling them to compete for championships throughout the life of the arena and instead have pocketed it.




ROFL. Pay attention more.

Your beef is with the county, not with the Spurs.

And pay more attention to what? All I've read about is Scola, who's a nice player but isn't a real difference between a championship or not. If you think he is, watch what Bynum/Gasol do to him should Houston meet LA in the playoffs.

So, besides God-Scola...what else was out there? Find me a better options for the same price. You can't...so you'll pretend like you've already said it even though you haven't.

[Marcus Bryant]

No they're not. They got asked to vote and they agreed to give that tax money to the Spurs. Nobody twisted their arms to vote for the venue tax extension.

The obligation still exists.

[ElNono]

The obligation still exists.

Yeah, but it was their choice. That's not the Spurs fault. They could have voted no, and the obligation would not have been there.
If you don't like how the vote went, you need to be pissed at the Bexar county citizens, not the Spurs.

[Dex]

http://www.salagram.net/end1.jpg

:lol

[Marcus Bryant]

Your beef is with the county, not with the Spurs.

And pay more attention to what? All I've read about is Scola, who's a nice player but isn't a real difference between a championship or not. If you think he is, watch what Bynum/Gasol do to him should Houston meet LA in the playoffs.

So, besides God-Scola...what else was out there? Find me a better options for the same price. You can't...so you'll pretend like you've already said it even though you haven't.


My beef is with the Spurs. Time and time again they have not made an effort to maximize their chances of winning championships with one of the greatest bigmen in the history of the game and the greatest player in franchise history in his prime on their roster.

They've passed on opportunities to add talent for the short term gain of Lux Tax payouts. Once upon a time the Spurs were screwed by cap rules which favored larger markets. Now with cap rules which have removed that impediment the Spurs do not take advantage of those rules to add talent, but rather to pursue short term profit.

And spare me the 'they're just maximizing their profits as they should' bullshit. Pro franchise owners make their $ on the exit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, but it was their choice. That's not the Spurs fault. They could have voted no, and the obligation would not have been there.
If you don't like how the vote went, you need to be pissed at the Bexar county citizens, not the Spurs.

Yawn. I guess you missed the $3 mil campaign for the SBC...er, at&t center funded by the Spurs.

Oh yeah, the Spurs wanted no part of that and, golly gee, they just can't get out of sucking on the public teat.

[2Cleva]

This scenario is actually a factor in what caused the Shaq/Kobe breakup (or at least lack of more rings). Dr Buss didn't want to spend any significant money outside of Shaq and Kobe - hence why Eddie Jones wasn't kept, why the MLE was rarely used, why LA's talent dried up.

The conflict between Shaq and Kobe fed greatly into LA dealing Shaq and building around Kobe but it also was the right basketball move in hindsight to build a championship team around Kobe.

Talks of dealing Ginobili for a player only makes sense if SA was dealing him for a big-salaried player off a team wanting 2010 cap space but that doesn't seem like the SA way.

Dealing Duncan for young pieces and picks after next season could also be seen as a good basketball move but SA puts loyalty above competition so that's not happening either.

The mentality of relying so heavily on the Big 3 was faulty in hindsight but the bigger problem was the FA mindset. Forget Scola/Splitter - only bringing old vets in FA and not stocking the shelf with younger athletes was the killer.

I'm not sure how SA turns it around at this point. Not much in the way of salary to trade.

[I Love Me Some Me]

They've passed on opportunities to add talent for the short term gain of Lux Tax payouts.

Like who?

Well, other than Luis Barkley.

[Marcus Bryant]

How many times have they actually used their Mid-Level Exception in the last 5 years?


Well, other than Luis Barkley.

Have you seen him play this season? Spurs fans are worse than 9/11 conspiracy nuts when it comes to Scola's game.

[ElNono]

Yawn. I guess you missed the $3 mil campaign for the SBC...er, at&t center funded by the Spurs.

Oh yeah, the Spurs wanted no part of that and, golly gee, they just can't get out of sucking on the public teat.

Of course they wanted the money. And it was also clearly stated that Bexar county was not getting part ownership for said money. So what are you bitching about again?

I never claimed that this FO never made mistakes. I'm on the record that they screwed up with the Scola situation completely. That said, you have to be a spoiled brat to be whining about winning 'only' 4 championships. As I said earlier, that's 4 more championships than a whole host of other much more resourceful teams.

Some people have very bad memory. If not for Big Dave, you might not even have a San Antonio Spurs to bitch about.

[I Love Me Some Me]

How many times have they actually used their Mid-Level Exception in the last 5 years?



Have you seen him play this season? Spurs fans are worse than 9/11 conspiracy nuts when it comes to Scola's game.

What player willing to take a MLE contract should the Spurs have signed that would make them a chamionship contender today? James Posey, maybe....and remember, they did offer the full MLE to Maggette last summer, but were turned down.

Scola is a nice player, but if you think he bridges this team from where they are now to a chamionship you're wrong.

[ploto]

They got asked to vote and they agreed to give that tax money to the Spurs. Nobody twisted their arms to vote for the venue tax extension.

Spurs did a good job of getting the county to package it with a lot of other things that people supported and who did not really realize the vast majority of the money was going to the AT&T. The commercials showed kids and local sports opportunities and did not mention a word about the Spurs.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ah yes, the 'be grateful' argument. Whoopdefucking do. Normally when someone doesn't fully capitalize on an opportunity they are deemed to have failed in some respect. In San Antonio we ask them if they want to try bareback the next time.

[ElNono]

What player willing to take a MLE contract should the Spurs have signed that would make them a chamionship contender today? James Posey, maybe....and remember, they did offer the full MLE to Maggette last summer, but were turned down.

Scola is a nice player, but if you think he bridges this team from where they are now to a chamionship you're wrong.

They did sign Horry as a free agent, and we did win 2 championships with him. Short memory, I tell you.

[ploto]

SA puts loyalty above competition so that's not happening either
Not true at all

[Marcus Bryant]

Hey, they signed Finley too. :jack Unfortunately he hasn't joined Horry in LAB.

[ElNono]

Hey, they signed Finley too. :jack Unfortunately he hasn't joined Horry in LAB.

Yeah well, Finley has one more championship ring than you. And after trying to win it all for many seasons, he finally found a winning franchise to get it done. You know, that would be the San Antonio Spurs.

Is he over the hill now? Probably. But nobody is taking away what he rightfully earned playing for this ballclub.

[2Cleva]

Not true at all

You really think SA would deal Duncan to rebuild around Parker like LA did with Shaq for Kobe?

[Marcus Bryant]

Maybe Finley can play until he's 40. Man, I'm popping wood just thinking about that.

*BRB*

[ElNono]

Only took 3 pages to find out that what was hubris was the OP's take...
:rolleyes

[Marcus Bryant]

Part of the problem with SA being a one horse sports town is that too many fans identify too much with the franchise and take any criticism of the team, management & ownership personally. What the F do we care if ownership makes some extra coin? We're fans, mofos. Teams cater to fans. Too many of you act as though it is we who owe ownership something. F that. That's redneck dumb.™

:cooldevil

[I Love Me Some Me]

If I remember correctly, the Spurs also offered the MLE to Joel Pryzbilla who turned them down.

[ElNono]

Part of the problem with SA being a one horse sports town is that too many fans identify too much with the franchise and take any criticism of the team, management & ownership personally. What the F do we care if ownership makes some extra coin? We're fans, mofos. Teams cater to fans. Too many of you act as though it is we who owe ownership something. F that. That's redneck dumb.™

:cooldevil

We're not telling you what to do. We're just telling you how dumb you look while you do it...

[I Love Me Some Me]

Part of the problem with SA being a one horse sports town is that too many fans identify too much with the franchise and take any criticism of the team, management & ownership personally. What the F do we care if ownership makes some extra coin? We're fans, mofos. Teams cater to fans. Too many of you act as though it is we who owe ownership something. F that. That's redneck dumb.â„¢

:cooldevil

I'm not asking you not to criticize...I'm just asking that if you claim to know better, then show me how that is.

You're sure as day that they did it wrong, but have no idea what was right....what kind of dumb is that?

[Marcus Bryant]

"Dumb" is accepting everything the Spurs do as the best possible decision and defending ownership as if their financial success actually impacts you.

[ElNono]

"Dumb" is accepting everything the Spurs do as the best possible decision and defending ownership as if their financial success actually impacts you.

Well, I already said that I did not accept everything they did as the best possible decision. But from that to say that all they did was 'hubris' is pretty dumb right there.

[HarlemHeat37]

I understand many of the negative points here, but I have no idea why some of you are so down on next year..

it seems like everybody forgot how Duncan was playing before the tendonisis..they have said that it will heal with a few months..he'll STILL be injured, but it'll be the same shit he was playing with in the 1st half of the season, and for years..he's still going to easily be a top 5 big man next year, without question..

Parker is a top 3 PG, and there's no reason to think he won't be again next year..

the NBA is a league of stars..when you have players like Parker and Duncan, it's the players around them that need tweaking..

Vaughn, Oberto, Bowen, and Udoka are all free agents next year, so that's already a step in the right direction..

we have young players with potential that we'll be counting on to be ROLE PLAYERS next year..

most important of all, we have Manu Ginobili..he'll either be counted on to fill the big 3, or he'll be traded in the off-season for something we need..there are a HANDFUL of teams that will want cap space for 2010, or just to save $ in general..Manu has a 10 million$ contract that expires at the end of the year..a contract like that can get us an immediate impact player, or get us a few, younger impact role players to surround Duncan and Parker..

yes, the front office has fucked up..but this off-season is going to be key..that's 2 years in a row without a title, and we have no excuses..so obviously if they don't go out to make the moves this off-season, then these points are completely valid, and you can say that the Spurs FO is overrated..

we still clearly have options though..

[objective]

I remember the worst thing in the aftermath of 2007 was the determination to "bring all the guys back to defend their title". It was lunacy.

Re-signing Jacque Vaughn to a 2 year deal? Wait . . . what? I know it was for the minimum, but Vaughn was such a weak link that year, Pop had to scheme just for him against PHX to keep him on the court.

Re-signing Oberto and Bonner, to defend their title. Huh? A default starter and a guy who wasn't even in the rotation?

The writing was on the wall that other teams would improve and the Spurs would need to do the same, the Spurs instead did nothing but add Udoka.

------------------

[SenorSpur]

we have young players with potential that we'll be counting on to be ROLE PLAYERS next year....

Young players need both practice reps and court time to develop. It does no good to have young players if the coach will not give them any time. Or if the coach plays them for half the season, then suddenly decides that he can no longer trust them and banishes them to the bench.


yes, the front office has fucked up..but this off-season is going to be key..that's 2 years in a row without a title, and we have no excuses..so obviously if they don't go out to make the moves this off-season, then these points are completely valid, and you can say that the Spurs FO is overrated..

we still clearly have options though..

Making moves is one thing. Making the right moves is totally something else. Bringing in parts that don't fit or parts that cannot improve the talent level and skill set is as bad as not making moves at all.

[HarlemHeat37]

of course you're right on both points..my point is simply that we have options..whether or not they make the best moves is yet to be seen..

as for the coach..of course that's an issue, but I'm under the assumption that he finally realizes this team needs a youth infusion after 2 years without a title..

[SenorSpur]

of course you're right on both points..my point is simply that we have options..whether or not they make the best moves is yet to be seen..

as for the coach..of course that's an issue, but I'm under the assumption that he finally realizes this team needs a youth infusion after 2 years without a title..

If there is a silver lining in all this and if the coach and GM now fully GET the mandate that many here, including myself, have been clamoring for for them to GET YOUNGER and MORE ATHLETIC in order to maintain their championship window, then I'll sign on for that. This piss-poor period that we're enduring will be worth if, by this time next year, we have a younger, quicker, more skilled team, that isn't existing on a one-year window, every season.

[Marcus Bryant]

I remember the worst thing in the aftermath of 2007 was the determination to "bring all the guys back to defend their title". It was lunacy.

Re-signing Jacque Vaughn to a 2 year deal? Wait . . . what? I know it was for the minimum, but Vaughn was such a weak link that year, Pop had to scheme just for him against PHX to keep him on the court.

Re-signing Oberto and Bonner, to defend their title. Huh? A default starter and a guy who wasn't even in the rotation?

The writing was on the wall that other teams would improve and the Spurs would need to do the same, the Spurs instead did nothing but add Udoka.

------------------

I also believe they thought they could continue to wing it in the frontcourt with their motley crew. After all, they just won a title...

Oberto + Horry really seemed to decline from that summer until the next season. So naturally the Spurs ended up burning this year's draft pick to find a decent bigman last year.

Or, perhaps the Spurs' path to the '07 title was that weak. I mean, Utah in the WCF?

[Marcus Bryant]

I also see fans assuming the Spurs will use their mid-level exception in the offseason. Don't be so sure. Between angling for more of that Lux Tax pie and planning ahead for the Great Free Agent Snipe Hunt of 2010, it's highly likely that the Spurs opt not to use a part or all of it this summer.

[1Parker1]

Bottom line, nobody foresaw that Ginobili would be this broken down in the 08-09 season, all those seasons ago when they were missing out on draft picks, trading Scola to a division competitor, not going after Splitter, etc.

If Ginobili were even 90% healthy right now, all this conversation would pretty much be moot and people would think the Spurs still had a chance at championship contention. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that....

[Marcus Bryant]

Is it really that much of a stretch to consider what the Spurs would look like without one of the big 3?

[mexicanjunior]

If Ginobili were even 90% healthy right now, all this conversation would pretty much be moot and people would think the Spurs still had a chance at championship contention. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that....

The Spurs have been playing poorly for the past month, with or without Manu. The writing should have been on the wall last off season when the Spurs were exposed for being a slow, old and plodding team against the Lakers in the WCF. They made no significant improvements to that roster and here we are...