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Bruno
04-08-2009, 06:01 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-duncanspurs040709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

By Johnny Ludden, Yahoo! Sports


San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has a saying for these moments: We will or we won’t. So Pop threw up his hands again this week and shrugged his shoulders. The Spurs know there’s no replacing Manu Ginobili. They’ll pledge to play hard and smart, and they’ll try to control whatever else they can control. In the end, they’ll win or they won’t. No matter what happens, they’ll come back next season and try to do it again.

But deep down, the Spurs know something else: At some point, there won’t be a next season. Not for Tim Duncan. If the past few months have proven anything, it’s that the clock has finally begun to tick for the Spurs and their greatest player.

For all the concern about Ginobili’s ankles, the Spurs’ success in these playoffs was always hinged to Duncan’s health. For weeks, Duncan has told friends how much his knees have bothered him, and that’s telling for one reason: He never complains about his injuries. The Spurs gave Duncan three games off to rest at the end of February, but he continued to labor and Popovich opted to shelve him on one night of a couple back-to-backs.

Duncan has since shown some signs of progress. On Tuesday, he took the court with a protective sleeve covering one of his knees. Not long ago, he needed one for each leg. Duncan’s play has also picked up over the past five games with only a six-point performance against the Cleveland Cavaliers as substandard. But he also faced Oklahoma City twice and Indiana once during those five games. The defenses he sees in the playoffs won’t be as forgiving.

Still, progress is progress, even if it is one knee at a time, and the Spurs think they can be a tough out in the playoffs without Ginobili – provided Duncan is healthy and effective.

“That,” one Spurs official cautioned, “is the big question.”

The Spurs have always understood the fragility of success. To win championships, you need to be good, but you also need to be healthy and lucky. Too often this season, they haven’t been all three. Even with Ginobili and Duncan at full speed, the Spurs’ hopes of beating the Los Angeles Lakers were fleeting. The Lakers are that good and they figure to get better after Andrew Bynum returns.

Trailing by a point after the first quarter of Sunday’s game in Cleveland, Popovich was asked by an ABC sideline reporter what the Spurs needed to do next.

“We have to be as good as the Lakers,” he said, “and we’re not.”

But with Duncan and Ginobili both healthy? With Tony Parker enjoying the best season of his career? The Spurs would have entered their series against the Lakers with a chance, a small chance, but still the best one the West could offer against the conference’s reigning champs. A year ago, Ginobili entered the West finals on a bad left ankle, and the Spurs pointed to his ineffectiveness as one reason why the Lakers overwhelmed them so easily.

Now? A stress fracture in Ginobili’s right ankle is expected to sideline him through the end of the playoffs. Though Ginobili complained of stiffness during Sunday’s loss to the Cavs, he told the medical staff he was feeling fine the following morning when he went in for tests. The results dazed him and his teammates.

The Spurs know they can’t replace Ginobili’s fire. Unlike any player in the franchise’s history, he thrives on pressure. On Wednesday, the Spurs signed Marcus Williams for help. They needed Reggie Miller.

Most frustrating for the Spurs: Ginobili’s injury likely eliminates another opportunity for Duncan to win his fifth championship. As much as the Spurs would prefer to not look into the future, Duncan won’t be around forever.

Popovich has said he’ll retire 30 seconds after Duncan, and there’s probably as much truth in that as humor. Parker has jokingly asked Duncan to give him enough advance warning of his retirement, so he, too, can clear out. Even some of the team’s longtime business employees plan to leave when Duncan does.

When Duncan considered signing with the Orlando Magic nine years ago, former Spurs forward Sean Elliott pointed to one of his teammate’s high-end trucks to explain what awaited the franchise should Duncan not stay.

“See that Suburban over there,” Elliott said. “Drive it to the Mexico border and leave it there for three days. Then go back and see how much has been stripped.

“That’s what this team will look like if Tim Duncan leaves. There might be a window switch left.”

Duncan now will leave behind at least four championships, along with the window switch. He recently told legendary Boston Celtics center Bill Russell he wants a fifth title before retiring; he’ll have three years left on his contract after this season to chase one. With Duncan, the Spurs are always in win-now mode. That’s one reason they considered taking on Vince Carter’s burdensome contract at the trade deadline and why they also tried to make a three-for-one deal for Marcus Camby. If Duncan needs help, the Spurs will try to get it for him, future be damned.

The Spurs built their championship rosters by plugging in experienced role players around their three stars. Duncan, however, is the one who makes it all work. So when he struggles as he did the past two months, it doesn’t matter whether Ginobili is in the lineup, the Spurs are also going to struggle.

This fall, Duncan looked as fresh as he has in years. He spent the summer throwing truck tires and boxing, and reported to training camp lean and hungry. Popovich encouraged him to show more confidence in his jump shot to also reduce the pounding he would take in the post. Few big men played better during the season’s first half.

The aching in Duncan’s knees eventually slowed him after the All-Star break. This isn’t a one-time injury. This is what comes from the wear and tear of 12 NBA seasons, from enduring all those postseason battles. Already, Duncan has played in 155 playoff games, essentially adding another two full seasons to his career.

Larry Bird recently told the Boston Herald that Kevin Garnett’s injury troubles this season were inevitable for someone who had played so hard for so long. The same holds true for Duncan.

“It’s gonna catch up with you sooner or later,” Bird said.

The Spurs don’t have time to worry about that. The playoffs start next week and they won’t have Ginobili. They’ll need to lean on Duncan as they always have, and they’ll hope he feels as good in April as he did in November. As Popovich likes to say: They’ll win or they won’t.

And if they don’t?

For now, there’s always next season.

SpursReportSucks
04-08-2009, 06:05 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fWLtJmEhLG0/SWy4IyP3_yI/AAAAAAAADVs/uUcTL59byyc/s400/captain+obvious.jpg

duncan228
04-08-2009, 06:07 PM
I miss Ludden.

Great piece, as hard to read as it is. We all know Duncan is the window. I really want to see him get at least another one. I hope he does.

DPG21920
04-08-2009, 06:07 PM
We are in wait and see mode. There are a lot of problems to be addressed and questions that need to be answered. Spurs had a decent plan, but sometimes a wrench gets thrown in them (Manu injury, Tiago getting offered a big contract, Ian being injured...). Hopefully the Spurs can pull together for Duncan's last years. Hopefully, a few moves can go their way and we can enjoy another chip.

Spurs Brazil
04-08-2009, 06:07 PM
Always great to read Ludden

Muser
04-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Duncan deserves one more ring at the least.

timvp
04-08-2009, 06:13 PM
Ludden is awesome. Although this section didn't have much truth:


With Duncan, the Spurs are always in win-now mode. That’s one reason they considered taking on Vince Carter’s burdensome contract at the trade deadline and why they also tried to make a three-for-one deal for Marcus Camby. If Duncan needs help, the Spurs will try to get it for him, future be damned.

Perhaps the philosophy is changing now that Duncan's nearing the end of his career but the Spurs have never had the "future be damned" philosophy. It's actually been the opposite. They've been willing to sacrifice short-term gains to stick to their plan.

I'd fully agree that it's time to start caring about the long-term. Starting this summer, the Spurs should be willing to take on the ugliest of contracts as long as it helps to win. There's no more planning for the future. Next year and every following years has to be treated as do or die.

Spursmania
04-08-2009, 06:18 PM
Ludden is awesome. Although this section didn't have much truth:



Perhaps the philosophy is changing now that Duncan's nearing the end of his career but the Spurs have never had the "future be damned" philosophy. It's actually been the opposite. They've been willing to sacrifice short-term gains to stick to their plan.

I'd fully agree that it's time to start caring about the long-term. Starting this summer, the Spurs should be willing to take on the ugliest of contracts as long as it helps to win. There's no more planning for the future. Next year and every following years has to be treated as do or die.

I completely agree with you.

DPG21920
04-08-2009, 06:18 PM
Ludden is awesome. Although this section didn't have much truth:



Perhaps the philosophy is changing now that Duncan's nearing the end of his career but the Spurs have never had the "future be damned" philosophy. It's actually been the opposite. They've been willing to sacrifice short-term gains to stick to their plan.

I'd fully agree that it's time to start caring about the long-term. Starting this summer, the Spurs should be willing to take on the ugliest of contracts as long as it helps to win. There's no more planning for the future. Next year and every following years has to be treated as do or die.

Good news is the "market" is shaping up to reward teams that are in win now mode. There will be great deals to be had, and you can do it with just contracts, not player-for-player value.

Question is, do you think the Spurs will be buyers in this buyers market?

tp2021
04-08-2009, 06:24 PM
Perhaps the philosophy is changing now that Duncan's nearing the end of his career but the Spurs have never had the "future be damned" philosophy. It's actually been the opposite. They've been willing to sacrifice short-term gains to stick to their plan.

I'd fully agree that it's time to start caring about the long-term.

You mean short-term, right?

Spurs Brazil
04-08-2009, 08:52 PM
For weeks, Duncan has told friends how much his knees have bothered him, and that’s telling for one reason: He never complains about his injuries.

Today was really bad. He could barely move :(

timvp
04-08-2009, 08:53 PM
You mean short-term, right?

"start" should have been "stop".

HarlemHeat37
04-08-2009, 08:59 PM
great article..

I don't really see us having the ability to make a trade, unless we get rid of Manu though..we can package a combination of Thomas/Mason/Bonner as well, but it would obviously affect our depth..

otherwise, we'll have to rely on Hill, Mahinmi, other random young players, and the MLE..

Ocotillo
04-08-2009, 09:14 PM
Jeez, what a depressing article. Once Timmy D. retires it's only a matter of time before the Spurs either move or fold.

We have been searching for the long three for like 4 or 5 years now and he still has not been found (Marcus Williams is not him) and it's time to think of how to be competitive post-Duncan.

SenorSpur
04-08-2009, 09:42 PM
The Spurs built their championship rosters by plugging in experienced role players around their three stars.

Ludden is always a "great read"

That formula has been one of success for some time now. However, it worked when every member of the Big Three were in their prime. That's not the case right now.

I will say this. Experience is the one commodity needed for championship success. However, it can be an overrated commodity. Especially when your older players are hobbling from injury or because they are extremely fatigued and getting their asses waxed by a younger team, on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

The aching in Duncan’s knees eventually slowed him after the All-Star break. This isn’t a one-time injury. This is what comes from the wear and tear of 12 NBA seasons, from enduring all those postseason battles. Already, Duncan has played in 155 playoff games, essentially adding another two full seasons to his career.


It's no secret that Tim and Manu have both played a lot of basketball and have a lot of wear and tear on their bodies. It's no surprise that injury is catching up to both. TP is carrying a very, heavy offensive burden now and could headed in that same direction in a few years.

urunobili
04-08-2009, 09:44 PM
where's the "I miss ludden" dog?

JWest596
04-08-2009, 09:57 PM
This team won't go deep into the luxury tax. It's not going to happen. Never has happened and it never will happen. Tim or no Tim. It's not an option. We too small a market and not enough rich owners willing to part with millions a season like Dallas or New York. Never mind the down economic times to boot. Get used to it.

The Spurs will always be geared as a playoff team but a Duncan and a DROB type player are the rarest in commodities and attainment. And Tim doesn't have to stick around to pass any torch. Perhaps Tim and David will be sitting at courtside for years to come yelling "Get with it you pussies". The Dark Days near....

timvp
04-08-2009, 10:00 PM
This team won't go deep into the luxury tax. It's not going to happen. Never has happened and it never will happen. Tim or no Tim. It's not an option. We too small a market and not enough rich owners willing to part with millions a season like Dallas or New York. Never mind the down economic times to boot. Get used to it. I don't see anyone calling for that. What I'm calling for is taking on long, bloated contracts that other teams would want to remove from their books. If the Spurs take on a contract that could be considered bad in 2015, that's the type of risk I'd be more than willing to take.

It'd be foolish to care about the rebuilding effort. The FO has to go at it like there's no life after Duncan and then cross the bridge the day it comes.

DPG21920
04-08-2009, 10:01 PM
Good news is the "market" is shaping up to reward teams that are in win now mode. There will be great deals to be had, and you can do it with just contracts, not player-for-player value.

Question is, do you think the Spurs will be buyers in this buyers market?


I don't see anyone calling for that. What I'm calling for is taking on long, bloated contracts that other teams would want to remove from their books. If the Spurs take on a contract that could be considered bad in 2015, that's the type of risk I'd be more than willing to take.

It'd be foolish to care about the rebuilding effort. The FO has to go at it like there's no life after Duncan and then cross the bridge the day it comes.

JWest596
04-08-2009, 10:18 PM
I don't see anyone calling for that. What I'm calling for is taking on long, bloated contracts that other teams would want to remove from their books. If the Spurs take on a contract that could be considered bad in 2015, that's the type of risk I'd be more than willing to take.

It'd be foolish to care about the rebuilding effort. The FO has to go at it like there's no life after Duncan and then cross the bridge the day it comes.

I can't see the Spurs limiting their opportunities, eating any luxury tax or placing all their eggs in one basket and doing so for 3 to 4 years. There's no history of that whatsoever and I can't see Holt/owners willing to absorb millions even for Tim Duncan. They'll put out the best product they can produce and afford and not the best money can buy. You may be right and I agree with you that you can't waste a single year of Tim Duncan's careere like LAL front office did with Kobe Bryant's. It's not fair to Tim and what he's done and accomplished. Whatever happens it's going to be a very deliberate off season this summer. A lot of change appears to be in the wind next year and a very new Spurs team is going to emerge next season and it will take a season to get all the changes into the Pop's system.

What brings me caution is that Tim has never complained about injuries let alone used them as excuses but he's told friends this year that his knees bothered him a a lot this season? Tim Duncan complained about his knees?!!! There's a news flash.

I could read the situation possibly that Tim could retire a lot earlier than planned/envisioned as a real possibility. Sandy Koufax, DROB and Larry Bird come to mind and all could have played longer careers but decided not to.

duncan228
04-08-2009, 10:43 PM
What brings me caution is that Tim has never complained about injuries let alone used them as excuses but he's told friends this year that his knees bothered him a a lot this season? Tim Duncan complained about his knees?!!! There's a news flash.

I could read the situation possibly that Tim could retire a lot earlier than planned/envisioned as a real possibility. Sandy Koufax, DROB and Larry Bird come to mind and all could have played longer careers but decided not to.

Duncan's left knee has bothered him all season, then the tendonosis was diagnosed in his right. The first half of his season was incredible considering the pain he apparently was in.

I've always thought Duncan would retire at the end of his current contract. His knees have sealed that thought for me. If he stays in pain, I wouldn't be surprised if he hung it up earlier. Playing with both knees hurting can't be easy; we can see it, imagine what it feels like. If he begins to feel he's not able to contribute at a high level he may make a different decision.

I hope he can get pain free, and I hope I'm wrong in my instinct. I'd like to see him play forever.

ElNono
04-08-2009, 10:47 PM
Duncan's left knee has bothered him all season, then the tendonosis was diagnosed in his right. The first half of his season was incredible considering the pain he apparently was in.

I've always thought Duncan would retire at the end of his current contract. His knees have sealed that thought for me. If he stays in pain, I wouldn't be surprised if he hung it up earlier. Playing with both knees hurting can't be easy; we can see it, imagine what it feels like. If he begins to feel he's not able to contribute at a high level he may make a different decision.

I hope he can get pain free, and I hope I'm wrong in my instinct. I'd like to see him play forever.

You know, my wife and I were fortunate to meet Bill Walton. If you ever saw the guy walk, you would just feel pain by proxy. His knees are completely shot. I really don't want Timmy to go out like that.
I sincerely wish him the best of lucks and hope he can recover. :toast

duncan228
04-08-2009, 10:49 PM
where's the "I miss ludden" dog?

I think Slomo has it.

Mel_13
04-08-2009, 11:05 PM
I don't see anyone calling for that. What I'm calling for is taking on long, bloated contracts that other teams would want to remove from their books. If the Spurs take on a contract that could be considered bad in 2015, that's the type of risk I'd be more than willing to take.

It'd be foolish to care about the rebuilding effort. The FO has to go at it like there's no life after Duncan and then cross the bridge the day it comes.


I've always thought that something in this direction (trades that bring back more talent and more financial obligations) is a more likely scenario than trying to get a big ticket free agent in 2010.

If you look around the league for potentially motivated sellers of talent, players such as Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Antawn Jamison, and Corey Maggette could be available in trades that are essentially salary dumps. Assuming that Manu is not in the trade, Carter and Jefferson will probably require 4 players in return and Jamison will require 3. Maggette and the 4yrs/40M left on his deal could possibly be had for a package centered around the partially guaranteed contracts of Oberto and Bowen. Do you
trade 3.9M in obligations for Maggette and 40M in future obligations?

ploto
04-08-2009, 11:20 PM
It's tough- sometimes with these big guys they seem to get old almost over night.

The Truth #6
04-08-2009, 11:47 PM
If you combine the Spurs' timid nature, cheapness, and the fact that most teams don't want to help us through a trade - it's not a great option.

The problem with surrounding the Big 3 with only veterans is that the Big 3 are already veterans. Young players can also be role players. The Spurs defied odds by winning in 07 with a grandfather lineup. Typically, title teams have a combination of experience and youth.

Anyway, the most depressing point of Ludden's article is that there is no future for the franchise. All the coaches are going to pack up the second Duncan leaves. If the FO attitude is to leave once Duncan retires, that's basically saying they're already planning for their own vacations. Has anyone ever worked with old-timers who don't want to adapt to changing surroundings and basically are hanging on until retirement? Yeah, they're really annoying because they aren't living in reality. Evidently, that's our front office. I consider this a huge insult to the fans who will be here way beyond the next 2 years.

While I agree with Timvp and others who say we need to win now, I also wonder how the hell it came to this? After the 06 loss to the Mavs the FO has been in denial mode - even while winning in 07, which is an astonishing feat, one that I greatly appreciate.

Amuseddaysleeper
04-08-2009, 11:49 PM
If you combine the Spurs' timid nature, cheapness, and the fact that most teams don't want to help us through a trade - it's not a great option.

The problem with surrounding the Big 3 with only veterans is that the Big 3 are already veterans. Young players can also be role players. The Spurs defied odds by winning in 07 with a grandfather lineup. Typically, title teams have a combination of experience and youth.

Anyway, the most depressing point of Ludden's article is that there is no future for the franchise. All the coaches are going to pack up the second Duncan leaves. If the FO attitude is to leave once Duncan retires, that's basically saying they're already planning for their own vacations. Has anyone ever worked with old-timers who don't want to adapt to changing surroundings and basically are hanging on until retirement? Yeah, they're really annoying because they aren't living in reality. Evidently, that's our front office. I consider this a huge insult to the fans who will be here way beyond the next 2 years.

While I agree with Timvp and others who say we need to win now, I also wonder how the hell it came to this? After the 06 loss to the Mavs the FO has been in denial mode - even while winning in 07, which is an astonishing feat, one that I greatly appreciate.

:tu

2Cleva
04-09-2009, 10:03 AM
Does anyone know about Charles Smith and him getting over his injury woes while in SA?