Congress Plans Order to Keep Schiavo Alive

[Clandestino]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers said on Friday they plan to issue a congressional subpoena to keep alive Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged Florida woman at the heart of a heated debate over the right to die.

"Later this morning, we will issue a subpoena, which will require hospice administrators and attending physicians to preserve nutrition and hydration for Terri Schiavo to allow Congress to fully understand the procedures and practices that are currently keeping her alive," three Republican leaders said in a statement.


The lawmakers -- House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas and Government Reform Committee Chairman Tom Davis of Virginia -- support the reform committee's inquiry into the long-term care of incapacitated or non-ambulatory adults.


The subpoena will be joined by a Senate investigation, the lawmakers said.


"This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends, and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety," the statement said. "This fight is not over."


Schiavo has been fed through a tube since she suffered an incapacitating heart attack in 1990. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, contends she would not have wanted to be kept alive in what court-appointed doctors describe as a persistent vegetative state.


Her parents dispute this, saying their daughter responds to them and could improve with rehabilitation.


"Tom DeLay and Dennis Hastert are not members of the Politburo in Stalinist Russia," Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, told Reuters by telephone. "The state does not own Mrs. Schiavo's body and Congress cannot simply order her to remain alive contrary to her medical treatment wishes and court order."


Felos said Congress has no power to enter an injunction. "The only subpoena Congress can issue is to appear before a congressional body," he said.


The House (of Representatives) on Wednesday and the Senate on Thursday passed legislation aimed at prolonging Schiavo's life, by allowing federal courts to review the case. But the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) declined to step in, sending the matter back to a Florida court.


Late Thursday night, several senators announced they were still holding talks and Congress -- which is supposed to start a two-week recess -- might return on Monday to work on the bill. Even if Schiavo's feeding tube is removed at 1 p.m. Friday, death would not be instantaneous.


In a White House statement, President Bush (news - web sites) said, "In instances like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws, and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life." He was due to visit Florida to talk about Social Security (news - web sites) on Friday.


Schiavo was in her mid-20s when she became ill and had no "living will" or written directive about end-of-life care. She remains at the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, under police guard. Outside demonstrators held a prayer vigil.


The Florida legislature failed on Thursday to agree on legislation aimed at stopping or delaying removal of the feeding tube, and Republican leaders said prospects were bleak for an agreement on Friday

[Opinionater]

So, in your opinion, this is "time well spent"?
Hate to sound cruel, but we are talking about ONE person here.
IMHO, the senators could be spending time on other issues.

[Clandestino]

i believe they shouldn't be involved in this either... the husband turned down millions of dollars already. he is doing this based on her wishes... i firmly believe that.

[MannyIsGod]

Congress loves to think they all wear crowns sometimes. Someone should tell them what legislative means.

[Useruser666]

I wish they could call a session to tell me how many plys of paper to wipe my ass with.

[Clandestino]

i'm sure the toilet paper lobbyists would love that...

[travis2]

Congress loves to think they all wear crowns sometimes. Someone should tell them what legislative means.

One could say the same about the judiciary.

Neither branch operates with complete consistency.

[MannyIsGod]

I disagree, the Judiciary merly interprets laws, they don't create new ones. As much as the talking heads love to talk about activist judges, they only do what they were put there to do, judge.

I think the executive and legislative branches forget who they are all the damn time however.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I wish they could call a session to tell me how many plys of paper to wipe my ass with.

Three.

It's the law.

:lol

[Clandestino]

the latest...

By MITCH STACY, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - The presiding judge in the case of Terri Schiavo ruled Friday that the feeding tube keeping the brain-damaged woman alive must be removed despite efforts by congressional Republicans to block the move by seeking her appearance at hearings.


Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer refused a request from U.S. House attorneys to delay the removal, which he had previously ordered to take place at 1 p.m. EST. Greer determined that it should go forward about an hour after another judge issued a temporary delay blocking the tube's removal.


"I have had no cogent reason why the (congressional) committee should intervene," Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer told attorneys in a conference call, adding that last-minute action by Congress does not invalidate years of court rulings.

[sbsquared]

What is the matter with you people?! Many of you are against the death penalty and say we should show compassion, yet you think nothing should be done to save this woman's life? At least the death row inmate gets a pretty quick and painless death - Terri will slowly starve to death over a period of a couple of weeks - that's cruel and inhumane!

I think her "husband's" motives are highly suspect - but that's a whole other story.

[Clandestino]

What is the matter with you people?! Many of you are against the death penalty and say we should show compassion, yet you think nothing should be done to save this woman's life? At least the death row inmate gets a pretty quick and painless death - Terri will slowly starve to death over a period of a couple of weeks - that's cruel and inhumane!

I think her "husband's" motives are highly suspect - but that's a whole other story.

i believe he is following her wishes. he already turned down millions so i think he is just doing what she wanted.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm all for the right do die. I don't know what she wanted, because I've not kept up with the case, but if she indeed want to die in this type of situation, then I'd grant her that request.

[desflood]

Her husband says she told him she'd want to be "unplugged" if she were ever in this situation... but we only have his word, since she left no official directives. Normally if that's the case, the final say automatically goes to the next of kin (which would be him), so I'm not sure why it wasn't done to begin with.

[Clandestino]

because her parents have fought it.. what made me finally believe the husband was his turning down of millions of dollars... he could easily have turned over the rights to her parents for the money, but he said no. it was her wish to be unplugged...

[desflood]

Yes, her parents are fighting it, but I'm not sure they had the legal right to say boo in the first place, and I don't know who'd have the authority to supercede the husband's decision just because the parents asked.

[2centsworth]

I'm all for the right do die. I don't know what she wanted, because I've not kept up with the case, but if she indeed want to die in this type of situation, then I'd grant her that request.
No evidence of her wishes. No living will in place, so the courts are involved.

[Spurminator]

I don't know how I feel about this... Definitely an unenviable situation for all parties involved.

[2centsworth]

because her parents have fought it.. what made me finally believe the husband was his turning down of millions of dollars... he could easily have turned over the rights to her parents for the money, but he said no. it was her wish to be unplugged...
If that was her wish, and then why didn't she have a Living Will in place? Maybe it was never really discussed seriously, just like it's not discussed seriously in about 99.9% of households.

[sbsquared]

She's not being "unplugged" - she's not on a respirator or life support. She just has a feeding tube because she can't feed herself.

The husband has moved on - he's been living with another woman for years and has two children with her. If Terri's parents want to take over responsibility for her care, why should he stop them? Terri didn't have a living will, so it's just the husband's word that this is what she would want. The parents think otherwise and they are willing to assume all responsibility for her care - he should let them!

[desflood]

If that was her wish, and then why didn't she have a Living Will in place? Maybe it was never really discussed seriously, just like it's not discussed seriously in about 99.9% of households.
It's the usual "Oh, it will never happen to me" scenerio, probably. But she should have thought it might happen to her, because she had a disorder that causes heart arrhythmias.

[2centsworth]

If you're defenseless or classified as a less than a fully capable human being then you're expendable. If you're a convicted serial murderer then God Forbid we take your life, but be an innocent 7 month unborn child or invalid then by all means kill em.

[sbsquared]

^^ My thoughts exactly ^^

[JoeChalupa]

CNN Reports: Feeding Tube Removed From Terri Schiavo
The feeding tube keeping brain-damaged Terri Schiavo alive has been removed,
according to a source quoted by The Associated Press

[MannyIsGod]

If you're defenseless or classified as a less than a fully capable human being then you're expendable. If you're a convicted serial murderer then God Forbid we take your life, but be an innocent 7 month unborn child or invalid then by all means kill em.

Bullshit

Keep things in context. Felons aren't offered a choice, this is about CHOICE.

If you want to debate that there's no evidence that she wanted to die, that's one thing. But don't turn this into some kind of rant on twisted ideals while ignoring that the arguement you are making ignores the choice factor.

[2centsworth]

Bullshit

Keep things in context. Felons aren't offered a choice, this is about CHOICE.

If you want to debate that there's no evidence that she wanted to die, that's one thing. But don't turn this into some kind of rant on twisted ideals while ignoring that the arguement you are making ignores the choice factor.
Relax. There is no evidence period! Nevertheless, you still get the same group that morally opposed to the death penalty gun ho about taking Schiavo's life. That's a fact.

Your choice factor doesn't include the innocent people who can't make their own choices.

[desflood]

You mean, felons don't have the choice NOT to kill someone?

[exstatic]

The GOP shows their inconsistancy and hypocrisy again. Aren't they supposed to be for smaller government and state's rights? I guess thats just unless it runs counter to their agenda.

[desflood]

The GOP shows their inconsistancy and hypocrisy again. Aren't they supposed to be for smaller government and state's rights? I guess thats just unless it runs counter to their agenda.
They are, above all, politicians. Politicians, no matter what their party, want power.

[sbsquared]

Whose choice? The parents choose to keep her alive, the husband chooses to kill her and Terri can't make known her choice. Whose choice supercedes?

And while you're talking about choice - the felon on death row chose to kill someone - that's where choice comes in!

[MannyIsGod]

Fine, if you guys want to go with your stretched logic, then the crowd that supports keeping her alive then supports killing people.

Wonderful.

[Shelly]

If that was her wish, and then why didn't she have a Living Will in place? Maybe it was never really discussed seriously, just like it's not discussed seriously in about 99.9% of households.

Especially, when you're in your 20s. Hell, my husband and I don't have a will. It's somthing that's been on our to do list forever.

[2centsworth]

Fine, if you guys want to go with your stretched logic, then the crowd that supports keeping her alive then supports killing people.

Wonderful.
Killing murderes and Child Molestors, yes.

[desflood]

Fine, if you guys want to go with your stretched logic, then the crowd that supports keeping her alive then supports killing people.

Wonderful.
Could you elaborate a bit, please?

[2centsworth]

The GOP shows their inconsistancy and hypocrisy again. Aren't they supposed to be for smaller government and state's rights? I guess thats just unless it runs counter to their agenda.
government by the people and for the people, not by the courts.

[MannyIsGod]

The Judicial system is as much a part of government as any other branch.

[exstatic]

government by the people and for the people, not by the courts.

Why should the representatives from 49 other states have ANY say in a Florida matter?

[Useruser666]

Why should the representatives from 49 other states have ANY say in a Florida matter?

Uh, I believe that's how the federal government works Ex. I don't really believe this case warrants their involvement.

[exstatic]

I don't really believe this case warrants their involvement.

Thank you. That's my point.

Federal involvement should only be in cases where national interests are at stake, or local government lacks scope to decide the issue.

[spurster]

I would be for saving her life if she had one now or a reasonable chance of having one.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

They are, above all, politicians. Politicians, no matter what their party, want power.


http://www.terrisfight.org/images/031705congrelease.jpg

Yay, let's politicize some more!

/Not making this a Rep. v. Dem post, just the grandstanding by all of them about this.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The President weighs in...(off the Terri Web site)

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
The case of Terri Schiavo raises complex issues. Yet in instances like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws, and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life. Those who live at the mercy of others deserve our special care and concern. It should be our goal as a nation to build a culture of life, where all Americans are valued, welcomed, and protected and that culture of life must extend to individuals with disabilities.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[MannyIsGod]

oh man, I'm going to go lay down because that statement makes me want to puke.

[desflood]

Pretty damned wishy-washy.

[rattler65]

:pctoss Why doesn't congress spend time to defend the feeding tubes of an aborted fetus. Just wondering o.l..

Most doctors called it a simple procedure. No pain or anything. Just doesn't seem right . :bang

[NeoConIV]

From Peggy Noonan column today
But in the end, it comes down to this: Why kill her? What is gained? What is good about it? Ronald Reagan used to say, in the early days of the abortion debate, when people would argue that the fetus may not really be a person, he'd say, "Well, if you come across a paper bag in the gutter and it seems something's in it and you don't know if it's alive, you don't kick it, do you?" No, you don't.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006442

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Sorry, but somebody running the MSNBC site needs to keep a little more watchful eye about the ads and their rotation in certain stories.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Armacham//feedingtube.jpg

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

To: National Desk

Contact: Dan Allen and Shannon Flaherty, 202-225-4000, both of the Office of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

WASHINGTON, March 18 /U.S. Newswire/ -- House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) today condemned the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube and pledged to continue working for a legal or legislative means to save her life.

"Right now, murder is being committed against a defenseless American citizen in Florida," DeLay said. "Terri Schiavo's feeding tube should be immediately replaced, and Congress will continue working to explore ways to save her.

"Mrs. Schiavo's life is not slipping away - it is being violently wrenched from her body in an act of medical terrorism," DeLay said. "Mr. Schiavo's attorney's characterization of the premeditated starvation and dehydration of a helpless woman as 'her dying process' is as disturbing as it is unacceptable. What is happening to her is not compassion - it is homicide. She doesn't need to die, and as long as Terri Schiavo can breathe and her supporters can pray, we will not rest."

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, because anything can now be labled an enemy in the war on terror. Jesus.

[2centsworth]

Why should the representatives from 49 other states have ANY say in a Florida matter?
Darn, I have to agree with you. The end of the world must be upon us.http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[Nbadan]

Sorry, but somebody running the MSNBC site needs to keep a little more watchful eye about the ads and their rotation in certain stories.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Armacham//feedingtube.jpg

:lol

[Nbadan]

Excellent article on Schiavo's court-appointed guardian


Guardian hasn't forgotten time with Schiavo, and never will

(snip)

Wolfson was appointed by a Florida court in the fall of 2003 to be Schiavo's guardian ad litem, or guardian at law, to deduce Schiavo's best interests and represent neither her husband nor her parents but Terri Schiavo herself.

This makes Wolfson one of the very few people to have spent extended time with Schiavo and gauged her level of awareness without having a vested interest at stake.

(snip)

When awake, Schiavo's eyes rolled about the room. She made random noises that sounded like groaning or the start of a laugh or cry.

But court documents said Schiavo's cerebral cortex, where reason and emotions are housed, had degenerated to fluid. So Wolfson set about trying to determine whether Schiavo's noises and jerks were merely reflexive or if they indicated something more.

He played Elton John CDs for her, and Bach and Mozart and music from the late 1980s, when she was in her 20s, prior to her collapse. He held her hands, squeezing them, and stroked her hair and face.

He put his face close to hers and tried to make eye contact, pleading desperately, trying to will her into giving him any kind of sign.

…But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign.

(snip)

Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction."

more (you'll need a bugmenot.com password):Kansas City.com (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11175595.htm)

[Experiment2100]

I smell a book/crappy Lifetime movie deal.

[Experiment2100]

Also I just thought about this, there will prob be an "original" Law and Order based upon this in 2 months.

[Guru of Nothing]

Let's look on the bright side - maybe she can go to heaven FINALLY.

What's not to like?

[NeoConIV]

Huh. But wouldn't this, like, set a bad precedent or sumum?

[NeoConIV]

Vatican Official Fears "Direct Euthanasia" in Schiavo Case
Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:00:00 AM GMT


Rome, Mar. 18 (CWNews.com) - Remove the feeding tubes from Terri Schiavo would be "direct euthanasia," according to the president of the Pontifical Academy for Life.

Speaking to a Vatican Radio audience on March 18, Bishop Elio Sgreccia said that the brain-damaged Florida woman "must be considered as a living human person" in spite of her disabilities. The bishop added that "her juridical rights must be recognized, respected, and defended."

To withdraw food and water from Terri Schiavo-- as her husband proposes to do, with the help of a court order-- would be "a way of killing that person," Bishop Sgreccia said.

The Italian prelate went on to explain that the provision of food and water cannot be considered "extraordinary means, nor a means of therapy." Rather, he said, it is basic care, to which any patient is entitled. The Catholic Church teaches that while it is not necessary to use "extraordinary means" to keep alive a patient suffering from terminal illness, it is never justifiable to take direct action to end an innocent life. Bishop Sgreccia acknowledged that the Pontifical Academy for Life generally does not intervene in specific medical cases. "However, the case of Terri Schiavo-- because of its exemplary character and the importance that the media have justifiably given it-- goes beyond the individual situation," he said. In this case, the bishop continued, "silence could be interpreted as approbation, with consequences that go beyond this specific case." The bishop said that he would not become involved in "secondary considerations" in the case, such as the economic considerations, or the legall relationship between Terri Schiavo and her estranged husband. Rather, he said, the Vatican's focus is on the basic principle involved in medical care. A final decision to withdraw food and water, he said, "if it is confirmed, and leads to the death of Terri Schiavo, would create a juridical precedent and present the reality of euthanasia as a right before the US Supreme Court, with grave consequences that can easily be imagined, for the lives of many other people."
http://www.catholicexchange.com/e3news/index.asp?category_id=10

[cqsallie]

[QUOTE=NeoConIV..."with grave consequences that can easily be imagined, for the lives of many other people."
Grave consequences indeed! If you haven't done so, now is the time to write a living will. In the case of a catastrophic accident after which you were termed "dead" to all intents and purposes, but medical science is able to keep you "alive" through artificial means - but with no hope whatsoever of returning to your former self - you can opt out. No one can force you to remain in a vegetative state to satisfy their lust for life, anymore than anyone can force you into a vegetative state against your will.
There's so much more involved in the right to die than we can understand from these singled-out incidents. Without extraordinary measures, Terri Schiavo would have died many years ago. I do accept the fact that at this late date it seems too late to make the decision which should have been made long ago. I have bleeding-heart sentiments about this, but it should never have become something that Congress, the governor of Florida, or the world at large, should decide.
I would hope that my living will, which stipulates that no extraordinary measures should be taken to maintain my life, will never have to come under the scrutiny of the government of the United States, Texas, or anyone but my family. :depressed

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This whole thing stinks. Let her die and go to a better place.

[cqsallie]

This whole thing stinks. Let her die and go to a better place.
You know what I find so odd, AHF? The very people who are so eager to keep this woman nailed to this earth (or her hospital bed) are the very people who believe so firmly that Heaven awaits.
I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but I sure am not afraid to die... :elephant

[Nbadan]

Oh, Oh, forget Presidential hopeful Frist, Tom DeLay is now on the Schiavo case for the wingers...


<snip>
Congressional leaders announced a compromise between Senate and House Republicans that would allow the brain-damaged woman's case to be reviewed by federal courts that could restore her feeding tube. Opposition waned after House leaders agreed to give up broader legislation and accept a narrowly crafted bill that applied only to Schiavo's case.

The Senate convened briefly Saturday evening to give formal permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be adjourned for the Easter recess.

The plan is for the House to act on the two-page bill Sunday or just after midnight Monday morning. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said the Senate then would act on the House legislation, assuming it passes the House as envisioned, and rush the bill to the president for signature into law.

"We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being," said House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas. "That's the very least we can do for her."

<snip>

AP News (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050320/D88UGAOG0.html)

Nothing like ridding the right-wing Shiavo bandwagon to help your constituents forget about your being investigated for ethics violations.

[Nbadan]

The rude pundit pulls no punches on Terry Schiavo...

Terry Schiavo Must Die:


The time has come for the inevitable end of this story, this miserable lot of the last fifteen years for Terry Schiavo. Brain-damaged and rubber-boned, barely human anymore, Schiavo has the indignity of having her nerve-reflex smile paraded out every time the moment comes close for her to have to sink or swim, to learn quickly to feed herself or starve. She is the unfortunate child of narcissistic parents who have pathetically deluded themselves into believing that, at some point, the rock that rolls around in her head will once again become a brain. She sadly lives in a culture so driven mad by religion that people will gather and pray for her to go on "living" (if by "living," you mean "devolving into a gelatinous mound with a nerve-reflex smile"). Anyone even barely touched by the rationality that is supposed to mark us as the most advanced creatures on the planet know this to be true: She must die.

And it doesn't matter at this point how. Take out the feeding tube. Wheel her into the alley behind the hospice and put three bullets into the back of her foamy skull. Put her on a raft on Tampa Bay and send her out to the lovely Gulf of Mexico. Hell, a merciful nation would rejoice at this act and make sure there's fireworks and live music on the bayfront to accompany her on her last journey. A merciful God would have sent avenging angels to smite all those preening idiots outside the hospice with Gabriel announcing, "Are you all out of your fucking minds?" before setting the whole place, Schiavo and all, on fire.

But we are not a merciful nation, for we believe that suffering is a gift from God or some such bullshit, and if you are chosen to suffer, then suffer you must. If you're dirt poor, single, and homeless and you get pregnant, you must keep your baby, even though the overwhelming chance is that you and your baby will be hungry, cold, and miserable for the rest of both of your lives. Despite the fact that virtually every competent medical person who has walked into Schiavo's room and smelled the shit-scent of death has declared Schiavo a cabbage or, on a good day, a pea pod, the right smells opportunity to distract people from the gutting of programs that actually do good for the living . Other "experts" who have witnessed Schiavo's eyes follow a balloon on videotape are nonsensical idiots (and that includes Senate Majority Leader and noted cat-disemboweler Bill Frist).

Way back in 2000, before Schiavo became the rallying call for people who have nothing better to do, here is how the St. Petersburg Times described Schiavo's end: "If [the feeding tube] is removed, Mrs. Schiavo would die painlessly in a week or two. She does not feel hunger or thirst, and she would just drift away, doctors say." That fact, that Schiavo will not actually experience anything differently, is now left out of most media stories on her. The distorted face of Terry Schiavo is now merely a canvas upon which ideology has been writ large, where the notion of "life" has been perverted to mean "a heartbeat," and where the cruel vicissitudes of politics now rear their ugly, hydra-heads.

The right loves this. This is better than Elian Gonzalez. The National Review's Andrew McCarthy (who was so good in Pretty In Pink, but has really let himself go) rants like a baboon about to tear out the liver out of a fallen baboon enemy about Schiavo, saying that "she'd be better off if she were a terrorist." Schiavo's fate is like manna from heaven because anyone who dares to say, for instance, "Terry Schiavo Must Die," can instantly be labelled as uncaring and cruel and then you can go on Fox "News" and Hannity'll show that reflex-smile of the damned and everyone can say they are doing "what's best" for Schiavo.

Terry Schiavo was a vain woman, driven to bulimia by a sad desire to be thinner and thinner, afflicted, as so many women are and so many women aren't, by pop culture standards of thinness. Chances are it was the bulimia that led to the heart attack that led to the brain damage that led to the gooey being that is Schiavo being prayed over by the President and his brother. Now ask yourself: if Terry Schivao saw herself right now, knowing what we know about who she was and how she felt about looks, would she want to stay alive? You who know men and women like the pre-gelatinous Schiavo understand of what the Rude Pundit writes.

Now the Congress is involved. And the Republicans want Schiavo brought into the hearing room. What a spectacle that's gonna be. What a fucking horror show. What an embarrassment to this nation. All those righteous members of Congress, weeping because Schiavo can't answer their questions, listening to her machine sounds, the suckings, the gurgles. They called Schiavo before the committee in a little over a week because "it is a federal crime to harm or obstruct a person called to testify before Congress." Another person, another prop. Those fuckers in the GOP know what they're doing: force Democrats to vote against the bowl of jello in front of them and then use that as immunity in elections against charges that the Republicans are eliminating Social Security. What these disgusting, dirt-covered worms won't do to eat the flesh off the body politic.

The only comfort in any of this is that Schiavo won't know a fucking thing that's going on. She is an object, not a subject. She is acted upon. If Bill Frist wanted to test her reflexes by pulling up her gown and raping her in front of the gathered media, she would not care. If Tom DeLay wanted to pick her up and dance her around like a puppet, she would not care. She will never, ever care again. There is only one caring solution. She must die.

Rude Pundit (http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2005/03/terry-schiavo-must-die-time-has-come.html)

[xrayzebra]

I disagree, the Judiciary merly interprets laws, they don't create new ones. As much as the talking heads love to talk about activist judges, they only do what they were put there to do, judge.

I think the executive and legislative branches forget who they are all the damn time however.

Manny what world do you live in. The Judiciary makes laws all the time,
even the supreme court just ruled that kids couldn't be put to death
not based on any constitutional provision, well they did say it was cruel
and unusal punishment, but they even went outside of our country and
cited some other countries laws.......yeah, interpretations my foot.

[JoeChalupa]

I think congress over stepped their place this time.

[jalbre6]

The very people who are so eager to keep this woman nailed to this earth (or her hospital bed) are the very people who believe so firmly that Heaven awaits.

Bill Maher said the exact same thing on Real Time Friday night, and Republicans Christi Todd Whitman (ex governor of NJ) and Florida Rep Lana Rose-Lehtinen had a real difficult time answering.

[Hook Dem]

Here's a little more enlightenment! .................................................. .HOUSE VOTES 203-58 IN EMERGENCY SESSION TO ALLOW FEDERAL COURT TO REVIEW TERRI SCHIAVO CASE; SENATE PASSED BILL EARLIER TODAY. This means that now the Federal Courts will take over on the issue of Terri's feeding tube. The first thing they are likely to do is subpoena Terri to appear before the court. Of course she won't be able to do that, but the subpoena will guarantee her protection under the Federal Witness Protection Act and require that no harm come to her. That, of course, means the feeding tube will be reinserted.

If the Federal Courts really look into this case, I can see the day where charges of Civil Rights violations, Breach of Contract, Conspiracy, and Attempted Murder could be filed against Michael Schiavo. George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney just happens to be the founder of the medical institution where Terri is being kept. As conspirators, that gives Michael almost whatever he wants regarding Terri's care and allot of clout with the management of the facility. It should be obvious to anyone reading this that Michael has been intent on killing Terri for at least the past 7 years. His intent at the time of Terri's collapse is yet unknown.

Over the past two days, I have come from supporting the removal of the feeding tube to my conclusion now that in spite of Terri's condition, we can't allow Michael Schiavo to get away with murder. I am still not comfortable with the Feds interfering with State's Rights or the rights of the individual but in this one case, it seems that justice is not being served by the state of Florida. I hope this doesn't set a precedence for other cases, and according to the bill, it will only apply to this one case, or so I've heard.

The following information is posted on the Terri's Fight website which is the website of her family at http://www.terrisfight.org <http://www.terrisfight.org/> Visit the site to see how you can help. The following information will be reviewed by the Federal Court since most of it was ignored by the Florida District Court. If this doesn't bring up questions of criminal intent and activity I don't know what will.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are affidavits of three former nurses / caretakers of Terri Schiavo, relating their horror at the abusive treatment and lack of treatment regarding Terri's care.

NO RESUSCITATION (if needed);

NO ANTIBIOTICS FOR URINARY TRACT INFECTIONS!

NO REHABILITATION OF ANY KIND, INCLUDING RANGE OF MOTION AND STIMULATION!

NEVER ALLOWED TO LEAVE HER ROOM FOR FRESH AIR AND SUNSHINE!

APPARENT INSULIN REACTIONS AFTER MICHAEL'S VISITS (she is not diabetic)!

MORE! and MORE! and MORE!, all under the ORDERS OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO, the husband who convinced a jury that their large award would allow him to take her home and care for her for the rest of his life. His 'fiance' with whom he's lived for seven years is expecting their second child.

http://www.terrisfight.org/Framesets/RecentFrame.htm

CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

AFFIDAVIT

_________

STATE OF FLORIDA )

COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd.

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him.

Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing.

Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.

Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member.

Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift.

Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI [urinary tract infection]or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like, "Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!" and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it.

This happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too.

There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention.

She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.)

Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>

CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this 29 day of August, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida's driver's license as identification, and who did take an oath.

<signed Patricia J. Anderson>

Notary Public

My commission expires

<Notary seal of Patricia J. Anderson>
=========================================

CAROLYN JOHNSON, CNA

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

AFFIDAVIT

_________

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CAROLYN JOHNSON who being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Carolyn Johnson, I am over the age of 18 years and make this statement on personal information.

2. I used to work at Sabal Palms nursing home in Largo, for a period of about two years. I actually was employed by a nursing agency and was placed at Sabal Palms as a Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA). I believe the events related here occurred in about 1993.

3. During this assignment I took care of Terri Schiavo several times. The first time I saw her my duties were being explained to me by the nurse on duty. Terri Schiavo was lying in bed. Another patient, also a young woman about the same age and in the same condition, was sitting up in a chair, with a drink cup and straw in front of her.

4. I asked why Terri was not up in a chair, too. I learned, as part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri. This surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against a doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders.

5. No one was allowed to just go in and see Terri. Michael had a visitors list. We all knew that we would lose our jobs if we did not do exactly what Michael said to do.

6. I remember seeing Michael Schiavo only once the entire time I worked at Sabal Palms, but we were all aware that Terri was not to be given any kind of rehabilitative help, per his instructions. Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Terri's hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this, as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation.

7. This entire experience made me look hard at nursing homes. After about two years, I quit this job, because I was so disillusioned with the way Terri was treated. Someone somewhere along the way should have reported this.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>

Carolyn Johnson, Affiant

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 28 day of August, 2003, by Carolyn Johnson who produced a Florida drivers license as identification.

<signed Patricia J. Anderson>

Notary Public

My commission expires

<Notary seal of Patricia J. Anderson>

===================================

HEIDI LAW, CNA

AFFIDAVIT

_________

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared HEIDI LAW who

being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Heidi Law, I am over the age of 18 years, and make this statement on personal information.

2. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March, 1997 to mid-summer of 1997. While I was employed at Palm Gardens, occasionally I took care of Theresa Schiavo. Generally, I worked the 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. shift, but occasionally also would work a double shift, until 7 a.m. the following morning.

3. At Palm Gardens, most of the patient care was provided by the CNAs, so I was in a good position to judge Terri's condition and observe her reactions. Terri was noticeable, because she was the youngest patient at Palm Gardens.

4. I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and Olga would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so. We usually did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times.

5. Terri had very definite likes and dislikes. Olga and I used to call Terri "Fancy Pants," because she was so particular about certain things. She just adored her baths, and was so happy afterward when she was all clean, smelling sweet from the lotion her mother provided, and wearing the soft nightgowns her mother laundered for her. Terri definitely did not like the taste of the teeth-cleaning swabs or the mouthwash we used. She liked to have her hair combed. She did not like being tucked in, and especially hated it if her legs were tightly tucked. You would always tell when Terri had a bowel movement, as she seem agitated and would sort of "scoot" to get away from it.

6. Every day, Terri was gotten up after lunch and sat in a chair all afternoon. When Terri was in bed, she very much preferred to lie on her right side and look out the window. We always said that she was watching for her mother. It was very obvious that her mother was her favorite person in the whole world.

7. I worked side-by-side with another CNA named Olga and could tell that she and Terri were especially close. Olga took a definite personal interest in Terri, and Terri responded to her. I could tell that Terri was very satisfied and happy with Olga's attentions to her.

8. When Olga was talking with Terri, Terri would follow Olga with her eyes. I have no doubt in my mind that Terri understood what Olga was saying to her. I could tell a definite difference between the way Terri responded to Olga and the way she reacted to me, until she got used to my taking care of her. Initially, she "clammed up" with me, the way she would with anyone she did not know or was not familiar or comfortable with. It took about the fourth or fifth time taking care of her alone, without Olga, that Terri became relaxed and cooperative and non-resistant with me.

9. Terri reacted very well to seeing a picture of her mother, which was in her room. Many times when I came on duty it would be lying face down where she could not see it.

10. At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. Olga and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael.

11. On one occasion Michael Schiavo arrived with his girlfriend, and they entered Terri's room together. I heard Michael tell his girlfriend that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and was dying. After they left, Olga told me that Terri was extremely agitated and upset, and wouldn't react to anyone. When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours. We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left.

12. In the past, I have taken care of comatose patients, including those in a persistent vegetative state. While it is true that those patients will flinch or make sounds occasionally, they don't do it as a reaction to someone on a constant basis who is taking care of them, the way I saw Terri do.

13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn't bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try. During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely know that Terri "is in there."

14. The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a "Do Not Resuscitate" order had been put on Terri's chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings.

15. During the time I cared for Terri, she formed words. I have heard her say "mommy" from time to time, and "momma," and she also said "help me" a number of times. She would frequently make noises like she was trying to talk. Other staff members talked about her verbalizations.

16. Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn't trust Michael. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and some times had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. It would take much more time and effort than usual to work her hands open to clean her palms.

17. I was told by supervisory staff that Michael was Terri's legal guardian, and that it didn't matter what the parents or the doctors or nurses wanted, just do what Michael told you to do or you will lose your job. Michael would override the orders of the doctors and nurses to make sure Terri got no treatment. Among the things that Terri was deprived of by Michael's orders were any kind of testing, dental care or stimulation.

I was ordered by my supervisors to limit my time with Terri. I recall telling my supervisor that Terri seemed abnormally warm to the touch. I was told to pull her covers down, rather than to take her temperature.

As far as I know, Terri never left her room. The only stimulation she had was looking out the window and watching things, and the radio, which Michael insisted be left on one particular station. She had a television, and there was a sign below it saying not to change the channel. This was because of Michael's orders.

18. As a CNA, I wanted every piece of information I could get about my patients. I never had access to medical records as a CNA, but it was part of my job duties to write my observations down on sheets of paper, which I turned over to the nurse at the nurses station for inclusion in the patients charts. In the case of Terri Schiavo, I felt that my notes were thrown out without even being read. There were trash cans at the nurses stations that we were supposed to empty each shift, and I often saw the notes in them. I made extensive notes and listed all of Terri's behaviors, but there was never any apparent follow up consistent with her responsiveness.

19. I discussed this situation with other personnel at Palm Gardens, particularly with Olga, and another CNA, an older black man named Ewan Morris. We all discussed the fact that we could be fired for reporting that Terri was responsive, and especially for giving her treatment. The advice among the staff was "don't do nothin', don't see nothin' and don't say nothin'." It was particularly distressing that we always had to be afraid that if Michael got upset, he would take his anger out on Terri.

20. I recall an incident when Olga became very upset because Terri started to get a sore spot, because it might lead to a bedsore. Michael was told about it but didn't seem to care. he didn't complain about it at all, in fact, saying "she doesn't know the difference." When Terri would get a UTI or was sick, Michael's mood would improve.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>

Heidi Law, Affiant

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 30th day of August, 2003, by HEIDI LAW, who produced a Florida Driver's License as identification.

<signed Thomas A. Brodersen>

Notary Public

My Commission expires:

<Notary seal of Thomas A. Brodersen>

http://www.sweetliberty.org/bulletins/terri/aff.htm <http://www.sweetliberty.org/bulletins/terri/aff.htm>

[Spurminator]

Whether she lives or dies is not a big concern of mine... I'm more concerned with Congress grandstanding on this issue, and with the means by which she is being "allowed" to die. Wouldn't some sort of painless lethal injection be much more humane than starving her to death? It could take her TWO WEEKS to die.

[JoeChalupa]

Didn't President Bush, well Governor Bush at the time, sign legislation in Texas that give the hospital the final decision on cases such as this? Or something like that. He wanted the courts out of these decisions now he is favor of the congress getting involved?

Is this a flip-flop?

I though conservatives for "less government" intervention in our lives?

And I heard that here in Texas, just last month or so the feeding tube was removed from a young against the wishes of the mother.

Where was Tom DeLay then?

[Hook Dem]

I am not advocating one side or the other, but I encourage you to read the affadavits of the nurses in my previous post. It just might change your mind. I don't think all of the facts in this case have been presented just yet.

[JoeChalupa]

I just don't think the government should have stepped in on this issue.
How many more "looks" do the the courts need to have on this case?

My point is I don't want the government getting in on this.
I really think they are opening a bad can of worms here. Will every family with an issue like this demand equal time for their issue?

[desflood]

Let's say that Terri Schiavo is in there somewhere. Can you imagine what a hell it would be, to be a living brain inside that body? At some point you have to consider the patient's quality of life.

[JoeChalupa]

I told the wife to give me a year, 2 tops and if I'm not out of it then pull the plug.

But I don't think I could pull the plug on my own child so on that I can understand where the parents are coming from.

[desflood]

I'd hate to take the feeding tube from my kids too, but you have to think of what they might be going through and whether they'd be better off dead, to put it crudely.

[travis2]

I disagree, the Judiciary merly interprets laws, they don't create new ones. As much as the talking heads love to talk about activist judges, they only do what they were put there to do, judge.

I think the executive and legislative branches forget who they are all the damn time however.


I was very tempted to write a long and (most probably) profane response to this...but I realize it just doesn't matter. You'll never listen to me anyway, regardless of proof or tone of voice.

[Bandit2981]

Wouldn't some sort of painless lethal injection be much more humane than starving her to death? It could take her TWO WEEKS to die.
i agree, but the whole Dr. Kevorkian thing got everyone so riled up i doubt it would be allowed....even though i think it should be

[JoeChalupa]

I was very tempted to write a long and (most probably) profane response to this...but I realize it just doesn't matter. You'll never listen to me anyway, regardless of proof or tone of voice.

I'd like to listen even if I don't agree.

Let it out!

[spurster]

It sounds terrible, but starvation for very ill people is one of the better ways to go. See this article for an example.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/health/21dying.html

[MannyIsGod]

Manny what world do you live in. The Judiciary makes laws all the time,
even the supreme court just ruled that kids couldn't be put to death
not based on any constitutional provision, well they did say it was cruel
and unusal punishment, but they even went outside of our country and
cited some other countries laws.......yeah, interpretations my foot.

and there you go.

[MannyIsGod]

I am not advocating one side or the other, but I encourage you to read the affadavits of the nurses in my previous post. It just might change your mind. I don't think all of the facts in this case have been presented just yet.

I think those affidavts may have swayed me.

[MannyIsGod]

I was very tempted to write a long and (most probably) profane response to this...but I realize it just doesn't matter. You'll never listen to me anyway, regardless of proof or tone of voice.

Show me examples of where they create laws instead of interpreting laws. I listen all the time, as long as you come with something more than rhetoric.

[Spurminator]

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI [urinary tract infection]or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like, "Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!" and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

I'm sorry, this just sounds far-fetched to me.

[ididnotnothat]

For those married in here..who would you want to have the final say?

Your spouse or your parents?

[Spurminator]

I would hope they would be in agreement on the decision.[/cop out]

If not, my spouse.

[JoeChalupa]

For those married in here..who would you want to have the final say?

Your spouse or your parents?

My spouse. Till death, or she pulls the plug, do us part.

[Shelly]

Spouse. But then again, my parents and spouse are in total agreement.


My spouse. Till death, or she pulls the plug, do us part.

:lol Was that part of your wedding vows?

[cherylsteele]

i believe he is following her wishes. he already turned down millions so i think he is just doing what she wanted.


How do you know this?
There is no living will...it is all hereay....when she dies, he recieves more than $3 mil.....the husband has kids by his mistress while his wife suffers and can do nothing....it is all about the $$$$$ he will pocket. I have heard that doctors have test that could possibly help her and yet nothing is done....c'mon people see the light.

If there was a living will, this would be a moot point.

Think about it....if we let this happen to an animal/pet.....you would be charged with cruelty yet you can purposely starve this woman?

I bet if we starved Charles Manson....he would deserve it......there would be an uproar.

[ididnotnothat]

If there was a living will, this would be a moot point.



But there is NO living will so it IS a moot point.
I think the Spouse has the legal right and this has gone on long enough.

[Shelly]

I haven't followed this story that closely, but why does he get 3 million? Life insurance policy?

[cherylsteele]

I haven't followed this story that closely, but why does he get 3 million? Life insurance policy?

Yes......it is a life insurance policy.

[Shelly]

I wonder if they'll pay out.

[ididnotnothat]

This what insurance is for and usually someone benifits from it.
That is why they are called the benificiary.
But I don't know who took out the insurance policy but that is why people take out insurance.

[cherylsteele]

But there is NO living will so it IS a moot point.
I think the Spouse has the legal right and this has gone on long enough.

The problem here is from what I understand he was assumed legal right AFTER her accident....the rest of the family does not seem to be included in anything regarding her well-being.

Say you are injured in a similar manner....do you want you family unable to have a say?

I have heard that he did not want any medical intervention at all from the begining.....she would already be gone if the courts had not intervened.

One of my problems with this whole thing is that I have heard that several doctors have said she never recieved all the test she could/should have......the longer they wait the harder it will be to help her......they have said the tests should have been done years ago.....the husband denied them because he was "guardian". This case IMHO, is just like abuse to the elderly.

Those who say nothing should be done are practically guaranteeing a death sentence to any retarded/disabled individual......this is a horrible precedent.

[Shelly]

This what insurance is for and usually someone benifits from it.
That is why they are called the benificiary.
But I don't know who took out the insurance policy but that is why people take out insurance.

I did know that. I have life insurance also.

I'm wondering if they'll pay out because of the circumstances of this case. I wouldn't be surprised to see the insurance company fight it.

[cherylsteele]

This what insurance is for and usually someone benifits from it.
That is why they are called the benificiary.
But I don't know who took out the insurance policy but that is why people take out insurance.

The circumstances in which he recieving the $$$$ is suspicious......he was basically cheating on her even though she was still alive.....his "love" for her is totally insincere....or else he would not have had children with another woman while his wife was in the hospital clinging to life.....if he really cared for her well-being he would be faithful.....remember "til death do us part"?
It doesn't mean unless you can't prevent it because you are near death or suffering in some way.

I understand about the insurance but the circumstances is all wrong...all avenues to save/help her have not been exhausted.....he IMHO is just leaving her for dead.

Like I said, if we were to do the same to an animal or pet, we would be charged with cruelty.....so now this lady's life is less than a pet or animal of some sort......we bend over backwards to help newts and such live....but when you are able to help a living human being who happens to be struggling for existence.....then forget it? She is breathing on her own, her heart beats with no outside help....so you advocate to pull the plug? What about those who are struggling with diabetes and are seemingly near death....you want to "pull the plug" then even if they "think" is is the best thing to do.....they may not be able to make clear decisions in their state.....do you think noone should say anything?


There are many laws...some good, some bad....that come out helping an individual.....the miranda rights come to mind....roe vs. wade.....i am sure there are so many others to name.

[MannyIsGod]

ltns cheryl

[ididnotnothat]

The circumstances in which he recieving the $$$$ is suspicious......he was basically cheating on her even though she was still alive.....his "love" for her is totally insincere....or else he would not have had children with another woman while his wife was in the hospital clinging to life.....if he really cared for her well-being he would be faithful.....remember "til death do us part"?
It doesn't mean unless you can't prevent it because you are near death or suffering in some way.

I understand about the insurance but the circumstances is all wrong...all avenues to save/help her have not been exhausted.....he IMHO is just leaving her for dead.

Like I said, if we were to do the same to an animal or pet, we would be charged with cruelty.....so now this lady's life is less than a pet or animal of some sort......we bend over backwards to help newts and such live....but when you are able to help a living human being who happens to be struggling for existence.....then forget it? She is breathing on her own, her heart beats with no outside help....so you advocate to pull the plug? What about those who are struggling with diabetes and are seemingly near death....you want to "pull the plug" then even if they "think" is is the best thing to do.....they may not be able to make clear decisions in their state.....do you think noone should say anything?


There are many laws...some good, some bad....that come out helping an individual.....the miranda rights come to mind....roe vs. wade.....i am sure there are so many others to name.

I guess I just wouldn't want everyone else, especially congress, getting into my personal affairs. Everyone can say anything they want but it doesn't mean my right as a spouse should be denied.

I'm not saying her husband is a Saint but I know some friends who have tragically lost someone and received a hefty insurance payment and moved on. Some even bought a bigger home? Should they have felt guilty about spending the insurance money?

Being an awful husband and human being is not against the law.

[Drachen]

She's not being "unplugged" - she's not on a respirator or life support. She just has a feeding tube because she can't feed herself.

The husband has moved on - he's been living with another woman for years and has two children with her. If Terri's parents want to take over responsibility for her care, why should he stop them? Terri didn't have a living will, so it's just the husband's word that this is what she would want. The parents think otherwise and they are willing to assume all responsibility for her care - he should let them!

well, obviously the tenacity that he is fighting with must show you that there is SOME reason his convictions on this are so strong, possibly the wishes of a loved one. . .

[Drachen]

How do you know this?
There is no living will...it is all hereay....when she dies, he recieves more than $3 mil.....the husband has kids by his mistress while his wife suffers and can do nothing....it is all about the $$$$$ he will pocket. I have heard that doctors have test that could possibly help her and yet nothing is done....c'mon people see the light.

If there was a living will, this would be a moot point.

Think about it....if we let this happen to an animal/pet.....you would be charged with cruelty yet you can purposely starve this woman?

I bet if we starved Charles Manson....he would deserve it......there would be an uproar.

He has already been offered millions of dollars and turned them down. So life insurance is a moot point.

[cherylsteele]

He has already been offered millions of dollars and turned them down. So life insurance is a moot point.

Actually it is not...the offer (1 mil I believe)....was less than the insurance money (3 mil+) he would pocket.....this tells me it is almost all about the $$$$. If he really cared he would accept other medical possibilites and tests that have been brought forth.....all options have not been exhausted....even if they have been I still think something should be done for her.....I just don't think the tube should be removed.......this sets an awful precedent for other cases of those unable to speak for themselves......life is too precious to discard this way.

That along with his scruples of having children even though she is still alive.

[JoeChalupa]

What sucks about this all is that for me, if I were in a commatose state of mind yet I could still see and hear my wife and daughters faces and voices, I WOULD want to live. Every moment would be cherished even they wouldn't even know it.

Inside I may be screaming yet on the outside they couldn't even tell if I acknowledged them and it would be so painful not being able to let them know.

I think my wife would hang on depending on how my daughters felt. If they wanted to keep their daddy alive I think she'd do it.

[Kori Ellis]

Actually it is not...the offer (1 mil I believe)....was less than the insurance money (3 mil+) he would pocket.....this tells me it is almost all about the $$$$.

I hate to burst your theory, but he's already turned down many offers including one of $10 million. So how is it about money?

[MannyIsGod]

Last night, I was firmly in the husbands corner after hearing that her best friend and others confirmed what he is saying.

Those affidavits are weird, but they are also far fetched

I think at this point, it's going to take a lot to make me not believe the guy. I think he's doing what she would have wanted.

[cherylsteele]

I hate to burst your theory, but he's already turned down many offers including one of $10 million. So how is it about money?

I have not heard anything about that amount....do you have a link.....this still doesn't change my mind about the basic opinion that he is still not true to her....he cheated on her and has 2 kids with his mistress....I still feel he is insincere.


I still think something should be done for her benefit...if not it would set a horrible precedent.

[cherylsteele]

ltns cheryl

I am not familiar with this acronym....fill me in Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

Long Time No See

[MannyIsGod]

I think to say that he cheated on her is unfair. He moved on, he wanted a life and I think that's fair.

[ididnotnothat]

I have not heard anything about that amount....do you have a link.....this still doesn't change my mind about the basic opinion that he is still not true to her....he cheated on her and has 2 kids with his mistress....I still feel he is insincere.


I still think something should be done for her benefit...if not it would set a horrible precedent.

I think congress and Bush are setting a horrible precedent.

[travis2]

Show me examples of where they create laws instead of interpreting laws. I listen all the time, as long as you come with something more than rhetoric.


Let me ask you three questions, Manny? That's all they are, just questions...

1. Does "interpreting the law" include the power to levy taxes?

2. Does "interpreting the law" including re-writing portions of a law to meet judicial "requirements"?

3. Does "interpreting the law" include setting schedules for state legislatures and withholding state funds from agencies?

I present these three questions as generic and somewhat rhetorical, but all three apply specifically to actual court cases. So answer carefully.

[samikeyp]

For those married in here..who would you want to have the final say?

Definetly my spouse. When you get married, you take on the responsibility of your spouse's well being in just this situation. Her husband says that it is her wish not to go on like this. What right does anyone else have to go against that? If it were my wife, I would have told her parents and anybody else to fuck off. My wife would do the same for me. Is there any physical evidence? no. There doesn't have to be. The spouse should have the final say. The way this has be politicized by lawmakers and others is disgusting. It just another way for politicians and people with agendas to get in front of a camer. Also, not to sound cruel but my tax dollars should not go to bring Congress in on emergency session for one person. If the Nation as a whole is in danger, yes, but not for one person.

[spurster]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRAIN_DAMAGED_WOMAN_TEXAS_LAW?SITE=TXSAE&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Mar 21, 11:23 PM EST

Bush laws in Schiavo case, Texas at odds

By KELLEY SHANNON
Associated Press Writer

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- The federal law President Bush signed to prolong Terri Schiavo's life in Florida appears to conflict with a Texas law he signed as governor, attorneys familiar with the legislation said Monday.

The 1999 Advance Directives Act in Texas allows for a patient's surrogate to make end-of-life decisions and spells out how to proceed if a hospital or other health provider disagrees with a decision to maintain or halt life-sustaining treatment.

If a doctor refuses to honor a decision, the case goes before a medical committee. If the committee agrees with the doctor, the guardian or surrogate has 10 days to agree or seek treatment elsewhere.

Thomas Mayo, an associate law professor at Southern Methodist University who helped draft the Texas law, said that if the Schiavo case had happened in Texas, her husband would have been her surrogate decision-maker. Because both he and her doctors were in agreement, life support would have been discontinued.

The Texas law does not include a provision for dealing with conflicts among family members who disagree with the surrogate decision-maker - as has happened in the Schiavo case - although in practice hospital ethics committees would try to resolve such disputes, he said.

The Texas law, Mayo said, tends to keep such cases out of court, allowing life-support decisions to be made privately. However, within the last month two Houston cases went to court. One case resulted in a baby being removed from life support; he died soon afterward. The other led to the transfer of an elderly man to a nursing home.

Bruce Howell, a private health law attorney in Dallas who was involved in updates to the state law in 2003, agreed with Mayo that Bush's signing of the federal law appears to be inconsistent with his actions as governor.

"These are incredibly private decisions," Howell said. "I would hope that this case does not result in federal law overriding what I think was carefully and incredibly well intentionally thought out."

The White House said Monday the law allowing a federal court to intervene in the Schiavo case was narrowly tailored and not intended as a precedent for Congress to step into such battles.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan dismissed the claim that Bush's signature on the Texas law conflicts with his action Monday. "The legislation he signed is consistent with his views," McClellan said.

---

Associated Press writer David Pace in Washington contributed to this report.

© 2005 The Associated Press.

[MannyIsGod]

Travis, will you just provide the damn examples already?

[travis2]

Travis, will you just provide the damn examples already?

You see? You can't debate...only denigrate what you don't agree with. And no listening involved.

Why can't you just answer the damn questions?


1. Kansas City School Integration. Judge ordered tax levy to fund magnet schools.

2. Gore v. Bush. Florida Supreme Court attempted to re-write election laws mid-stream (in re. counting procedures, deadline dates)

3. Aftermath of Edgewood v. Kirby. Judge Scott McCown set legislative deadlines for passage of what became the "Robin Hood", and threatened to withhold state funds for schools if those dates were not met.

Three examples.

[MannyIsGod]

Travis, debates involve the posting of questions, not grandstanding. Don't give me this crap, I asked you to post the information so I could make up my mind

Now, I'm going to read each one of those rulings and find out the justification for the rulings. Then I'll comment.

Quit being a jackass.

[MannyIsGod]

Any links would also proove helpful

[travis2]

Travis, debates involve the posting of questions, not grandstanding. Don't give me this crap, I asked you to post the information so I could make up my mind

Now, I'm going to read each one of those rulings and find out the justification for the rulings. Then I'll comment.

Quit being a jackass.

I posted three questions, and I tried to do it calmly and logically, in order to present my point. No "grandstanding", just questions. You were the one who couldn't answer questions.

Don't be putting the blame on me. I did exactly what you wanted. You couldn't handle it.

Quite being an asshole.

[MannyIsGod]

Websters defines condescending as.....

Anyhow, any links?

[travis2]

Any links would also proove helpful

Those were cases I recalled from earlier reading, so I don't have the links. That's why I gave the case names. McCown's name somehow I remembered.

I might be able to find the KC tax case name...

[travis2]

Websters defines condescending as.....

Anyhow, any links?

So not shouting is now defined as condescending? Fine. I know how to treat you from now on. Fuck you.

[travis2]

Websters defines condescending as.....

Anyhow, any links?

You can start here for the KC tax case

http://www.umkc.edu/whmckc/Collections/IKC250C.HTM

[MannyIsGod]

Thats the only one I should need, I have links for the other ones, I'll post on this later.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Congress has no place in this case.
The Florida Courts have already sided with the husband on a vote of I believe 7-0 and of those 7 judges, 4 were appointed by Jeb Bush.

[travis2]

Thats the only one I should need, I have links for the other ones, I'll post on this later.

All right, Manny...I'll wait for your word.

And seriously...I was not grandstanding nor being condescending. I'm truly sorry if you felt that way, but it really offended me to be accused of such.

[Nbadan]

Actually it is not...the offer (1 mil I believe)....was less than the insurance money (3 mil+) he would pocket.....this tells me it is almost all about the $$$$. If he really cared he would accept other medical possibilites and tests that have been brought forth.....all options have not been exhausted....even if they have been I still think something should be done for her.....I just don't think the tube should be removed.......this sets an awful precedent for other cases of those unable to speak for themselves......life is too precious to discard this way.

That along with his scruples of having children even though she is still alive.

What money are we talking about here? There simply is no life insurance money, but like anything the right-wing opposes, there is much disinformation. Terry and her husband won a medical malpractice suit and Terry was awarded about 1.5~million dollars to care for her medical expenses. Money that her husband cannot touch which to date
has been spent for its intended purpose. Her husband was awarded about $350,000, much of which he used to put himself through nursing school so he could care for his ailing wife. For 4 years he made the life of nurses at the hospital Terry was receiving care a living nightmare, so much so that they considered getting a restraining order because they felt they were paying so much attention to Terry they were neglecting the rest of their patients.

Despite being immobile for over 15 years, Terry Shiavo has never had bed sores - a testiment to her husbands loving care. Yes, after years of sacrafice and the harsh realization that his wife would never awaken from her permenant vegatative state, he moved on with his life, as most of us probably would.

[MannyIsGod]

fair enough travis.

[Nbadan]

Delay Hypocrisy: The GOP Using The Schiavo Case For Political Gain. Who Cries for Sun Hudson?


This is a story of two people who could not be more different, while at the same time, be so alike. More importantly, it is a story about a whore of a politician who genuinely does not care about either, but shows it in completely different ways. This is a story about hypocrisy and how Tom Delay and the Republican Party embody that principle.

The first person in this sad story is named Terry Schiavo. Most people have heard about Mrs. Schiavo because she has been in the headlines on several occasions, for her current predicament. Fifteen years ago, Mrs. Schiavo suffered a heart attack and fell into a coma, at the shockingly young age of 26. Today, Mrs. Schiavo is 41, still alive due to medical advances that sustain her through machinery. On one side of this story about Mrs. Schiavo is her husband and legal guardian, Michael. Michael Schiavo insists that Terri would never want to live this way, kept alive only by machinery. He has been fighting the legal battle to have her feeding tube removed, which would ensure her passing away. On the other side of this battle is the family of Terri Schiavo, who do not wish to see their daughter/sister die, and in fact view Michael as wishing to essentially “starve her to death.”

Recently, Michael Schiavo won a court battle that allowed the removal of the feeding tube for his wife. Since the starvation process would take some time, Terri’s family immediately went back to try and fight the legality of this decision. What they got, was support from an unexpected source. Tom Delay and the GOP have now seized upon this story and are using it to further their own agenda and to paint their opponents, the democrats, in an awkward position. In a feeble attempt to stop the removal of the feeding tube, Delay tried to subpoena Terri to appear and testify before Congress. An obvious publicity stunt, since Terri Schiavo has not spoken in 15 years, the attempt failed and the tube was removed. Undeterred, Delay vowed to continue to fight this fight, declaring the court’s decision a “moral and legal tragedy” and accusing the judge of “trying to kill Terri for 4 1/2 years." snip

Terri Schiavo is a real person and deserves better than to be treated as a political football to further the cause of the GOP. That is hypocrisy. This is the same hypocrisy that says that George Bush believes in a “culture of life” while waging war to no end. It is the same hypocrisy that sees so many people in the right-to-life movement cross-enrolled in the National Rifle Association supporting armor piercing bullets for “hunters”. It is the same hypocrisy that sees a man such as Tom Delay, devoid of ethics; decrying the ethical state of affairs in the Terri Schiavo case at the very same instant they are removing the tube from Sun Hudson, killing him.

Where is the outrage for Sun Hudson? Who cries for Sun Hudson? Wasn’t the life of Sun Hudson as important as the life of Terri Schiavo? The easy answer is yes. Unfortunately, the truthful answer is the life of Sun Hudson was just not as politically valuable. That should cause us all to at least pause for a moment and realize that the value of life should never be measured politically.

Oped News (http://www.opednews.com/wade_032005_delay_schiavo.htm)

[Useruser666]

Why is NBAdan using the story of Bush fighting for Schiavo's life for political gain?

By the way, I support removing the tube.

[MannyIsGod]

Chris, I think the appropriate question is why is Bush and the congressional GOP using it for political gain. Who gives a shit what Dan does.

[NameDropper]

I agree.

[Useruser666]

Chris, I think the appropriate question is why is Bush and the congressional GOP using it for political gain. Who gives a shit what Dan does.

Who said they are using it for political gain? It's a very hot issue to be taking one side over another. Dan would like to point this out as political gain, and yet him pointing that out is in and of itself, an argument for political gain.

[Useruser666]

Congress has no place in this case.
The Florida Courts have already sided with the husband on a vote of I believe 7-0 and of those 7 judges, 4 were appointed by Jeb Bush.

Gee so Bush's brother appointed people who may not have the exact same views as Bush? What a concept! If they all voted for the family against the husband, you would be all over that saying Bush influenced them since they're his brother's appointees.

[sbsquared]

There is so much more information coming out about this case - the courts need to let Terri live just to have enough time to sort out all the new information.

The nurses' affidavits are disturbing and they should not be just dismissed out of hand.

Her "husband" is a cold, unfeeling SOB - he said Terri is not being starved to death, this is just a natural occurance and it is painless. If he's so sure of that, how about if he goes without any food or water for as long as it takes for Terri to die - and then see how painless it is!!

[samikeyp]

Are you not so sure of it?

[MannyIsGod]

Who said they are using it for political gain? It's a very hot issue to be taking one side over another. Dan would like to point this out as political gain, and yet him pointing that out is in and of itself, an argument for political gain.

What motives do you think congressmen from entirely different states a president with a more than full plate have Chris?

They've all been invited down to Florida to see the woman. Still waiting for the first one to make time.

There was no place for the federal government in this case, and they wrote specific laws simply for the purpose of gaining attention in the media. In other words, political gain.

I'm much more concerned that congress can't focus on things that matter and instead tend to spend their time on issues that are defined by the media and not nessecarily the well being of the country. Maybe inbetween baseball hearings and emergency sessions that step all over states rights they can find time to fix real problems that need fixing.

[cherylsteele]

Long Time No See

Gotcha......although it looks like we aren't going to agree in this debate at all except to say it is unfortunate for all sides....especially Terri Schiavo.....This may sound unkind....but it may have been better for her to have passed away from the initial stroke.

I equate her condition to someone with Cerebral Palsy or Muscular Dystrophy...does this mean if a spouse wanted to he could do the same to someone suffering those complications?.....she breathes on her own....and her heart needs no assistance......I just think what they are doing to her is just plain wrong.....I don't see anyone changing my mind....sorry.....

Whatever happens....we must keep her in our thoughts and prayers.

[desflood]

There is so much more information coming out about this case - the courts need to let Terri live just to have enough time to sort out all the new information.

The nurses' affidavits are disturbing and they should not be just dismissed out of hand.

Her "husband" is a cold, unfeeling SOB - he said Terri is not being starved to death, this is just a natural occurance and it is painless. If he's so sure of that, how about if he goes without any food or water for as long as it takes for Terri to die - and then see how painless it is!!
Her doctors say she isn't feeling anything, not her husband.

[MannyIsGod]

There is so much more information coming out about this case - the courts need to let Terri live just to have enough time to sort out all the new information.

The nurses' affidavits are disturbing and they should not be just dismissed out of hand.

Her "husband" is a cold, unfeeling SOB - he said Terri is not being starved to death, this is just a natural occurance and it is painless. If he's so sure of that, how about if he goes without any food or water for as long as it takes for Terri to die - and then see how painless it is!!


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

This case is a prime example of people out there forming opinions with half the story.

It has been going on for 7 years! The courts have seen all of the evidence, and have ruled that Terri would not want to be kept alive in this condition.

Secondly, the husband no longer has any say so. The courts have become the ones carrying this out. They have ruled, and have been appealed dozens of times, with the same result each time! If the husband wanted to stop it, he can't.

[MannyIsGod]

People need to understand that this is not the husbands doing, but the courts interpretation wanted based on the testimony of many people, not only the husband.

This has stood up in court for years. The parents have exhausted all means. If anything, the parents have been the selfish ones keeping Terri alive at their wishes and not hers.

[samikeyp]

I don't see anyone changing my mind....sorry.....

nor should they try. Well said.

[samikeyp]

Secondly, the husband no longer has any say so. The courts have become the ones carrying this out. They have ruled, and have been appealed dozens of times, with the same result each time! If the husband wanted to stop it, he can't.

Isn't the husband recognized by law as her legal guardian? If that is the case, can they not let him have a say so? Curious.

[MannyIsGod]

No, he turned that power over to the state 7 years ago when they had the trial to decide what Terri wanted.

Because he was in disagreement with the parents, they had a trial in order to determine what Terri wanted.

The court determined she would not want to be kept alive, and therefore should have the feeding tube removed. It then became the courts responsiblity to make sure this happend.

The delay has been because the parents had a right to appeal the decison, and they have, numerous times with the same result.

However, the fact is that the court was asked to determine and carry out Terri's wishes. It no longer has anything to do with the husband. It hasn't for over 7 years!

[samikeyp]

Ahh. Fair enough. So her husband wanted to carry out those wishes, , the parents however wanted their way and decided to ignore hubby. Went to court....court ruled in favor of the hubby, mom and dad still not getting their way so let's drag this for seven years and gets hundreds of people involved who think "suffering a stroke" is a bad day on the golf course and completely ignore the wishes of the lady suffering and her spouse.

God Bless America.

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly

Do you see why this shouldn't even be discussed by the national government?

It has nothing to do with her ability to recover, but rather the fact that court has ruled she wouldn't want to!

[samikeyp]

Relax bro. :smokin

I have been on your side this entire time. I just had a question about the hubby.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, but people just don't know whats going on in this case. They really don't.

[samikeyp]

you are correct sir.

[MannyIsGod]

Travis,I'll respond to the court issue later tonight. I havne't forgotten.

[The Ressurrected One]

"The court determined she would not want to be kept alive,..."
Based, in large part (in fact, almost solely), on the husband's testimony regarding a conversation he and his wife had while watching television one evening. A conversation to which there were no other parties or witnesses.

[MannyIsGod]

Based, in large part (in fact, almost solely), on the husband's testimony regarding a conversation he and his wife had while watching television one evening. A conversation to which there were no other parties or witnesses.


In addition to other testimony as well, by other people. If the evidence is so flimsy, why have all the appeals ruled in favor of the initial ruling?

[The Ressurrected One]

In addition to other testimony as well, by other people. If the evidence is so flimsy, why have all the appeals ruled in favor of the initial ruling?
Because they're stupid? Or Liberal? I'm sorry, that was redundant.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, I would argue that Conservatives and Liberals share the stupid moniker quite well.

But, if the best reasoning you bring to way the appeals process produced the same results, even when placed in front of conservative judges, is stupidity, then I think you've made my case that much stronger.

[The Ressurrected One]

Well, I would argue that Conservatives and Liberals share the stupid moniker quite well.

But, if the best reasoning you bring to way the appeals process produced the same results, even when placed in front of conservative judges, is stupidity, then I think you've made my case that much stronger.
Well, it hasn't exactly produced the same results. On two previous occassions the decision to allow Mrs. Schiavo to die has been reversed, on appeal, and the feeding tube re-inserted.

My question is this. Why is the husband so intent on seeing this through when he's obviously moved on in every other aspect of his life?

[MannyIsGod]

Because he sincerly believes that this is what his wife would have wanted?

And as I pointed out early today, regardless of what the husband wishes now, the courts have made their rulings and they are operating off of Terri's wishes, not her husbands.

[Bandit2981]

And as I pointed out early today, regardless of what the husband wishes now, the courts have made their rulings and they are operating off of Terri's wishes, not her husbands.
good point, although from reading a few posts im not sure everyone seems to understand what this means. heres an example...if a person prosecutes another for a crime, and the charged party gets found guilty and goes to prison, the prosecuting party can't all of a sudden say "hey, i forgive the guy, go ahead and let him out of jail"...its not in his hands anymore, its in the justice systems.

[desflood]

Schiavo's Parents File New Appeal

1 hour, 7 minutes ago Top Stories - AP


By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. - Warning that Terri Schiavo was "fading quickly" and might die at any moment, her parents begged a federal appeals court Tuesday to order the severely brain-damaged woman's feeding tube reinserted.


AP Photo


AFP
Slideshow: Terri Schiavo Right-to-Die Case

Judge Won't Order Reinsertion of Feeding Tube
(AP Video)



David Gibbs III, attorney for parents Bob and Mary Schindler, told the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in Atlanta that the 41-year-old woman might die before they could get a chance to fully argue their case that her rights are being violated. The appeal came after a federal judge in Tampa rejected the parents' emergency request.


"Where, as here, death is imminent, it is hard to imagine more critical and exigent circumstances," Gibbs said in the appeal filed electronically with the court. "Terri is fading quickly and her parents reasonably fear that her death is imminent."


There was no immediate indication of when the appeals court might rule.


Even before the parents' appeal was filed, the woman's husband urged the 11th Circuit not to grant an emergency request to restore nutrition.


"That would be a horrific intrusion upon Mrs. Schiavo's personal liberty," said the filing by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. He filed a response to the Schindlers' appeal and said he would go to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) if the tube were ordered reconnected.

[Useruser666]

What motives do you think congressmen from entirely different states a president with a more than full plate have Chris?

They've all been invited down to Florida to see the woman. Still waiting for the first one to make time.

There was no place for the federal government in this case, and they wrote specific laws simply for the purpose of gaining attention in the media. In other words, political gain.

I'm much more concerned that congress can't focus on things that matter and instead tend to spend their time on issues that are defined by the media and not nessecarily the well being of the country. Maybe inbetween baseball hearings and emergency sessions that step all over states rights they can find time to fix real problems that need fixing.

I agree this is a waste of time.

[NeoConIV]

Death with a smile!

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/BRAIN_DAMAGED_WOMAN.sff_GAGS106_20050323033635.jpg

[Extra Stout]

Because they're stupid? Or Liberal? I'm sorry, that was redundant.I would suggest that somebody whose position is to throw out the system of laws, and ignore federalism, the democratic process, and the Constitution, because they feel the results are morally wrong, should be careful about throwing that "Liberal" moniker around.

It seems the Republican Party has been overrun by a Christian fundamentalist version of bleeding-heart liberalism.

[The Ressurrected One]

"Because he sincerly believes that this is what his wife would have wanted?"
If that were true, he would have demanded she be allowed to die 15 years ago when she entered her current physical condition. Instead, he waited seven years before deciding to be "sincere" about what his wife would have wanted. That doesn't add up.

"And as I pointed out early today, regardless of what the husband wishes now, the courts have made their rulings and they are operating off of Terri's wishes, not her husbands."
No one knows what here wishes are.

But, it appears her fate is sealed...so, further debate would amount to euthanizing a dead horse. I say we yank the feeding tube on this subject altogether.

Isn't it fortunate Terri's loving husband suddenly remembered a conversation they had years ago, in which she said, "If I ever have a heart attack and suffer severe brain damage, I'd like to be slowly starved to death. Pass the bacon, please." But what if Michael Schiavo was out of the room when she made such a request? Who would fight for Terri Schiavo's right to die then? Who would protect her from unscrupulous doctors who wrap themselves in the Hippocratic Oath, seeking only to prolong the life of the ill and infirm?

Compassionate caregivers must always err on the side of Death with Dignity when the patient's true wishes are uncertain, and they should be able to do so with a clear conscience. Once health care is nationalized and medical resources are strictly rationed, a progressive doctor-assisted suicide program such as Oregon's will become a vital tool for keeping hospital beds open for those who truly need it. Religious extremists who are still hung up on all that "sanctity of human life" crap will be encouraged to draft a "Living Will" - a notarized document specifying their sincere desire to inconvenience doctors, loved ones, and society itself by remaining alive for another 40 years. This "Living Will" could be printed on a wallet-sized card that one would present to their doctor or dentist, explicity stating "I'm a Quaker. Due to my antiquated religious beliefs, I politely request that I not be euthanized on this visit. Yes, I know I have hallitosis that can kill a bull moose at 50 yards, but I'd like to pointlessly linger on for a few more years anyway, if you don't mind."

Once we free caregivers from the constrictive binds of guesswork and legal roadblocks, we can look forward to a bright future where the euthanization of undesirables is as natural, beautiful, and merciful as terminating unwanted pregnancies.

[NeoConIV]

If that were true, he would have demanded she be allowed to die 15 years ago when she entered her current physical condition. Instead, he waited seven years before deciding to be "sincere" about what his wife would have wanted. That doesn't add up.

No one knows what here wishes are.

But, it appears her fate is sealed...so, further debate would amount to euthanizing a dead horse. I say we yank the feeding tube on this subject altogether.

Isn't it fortunate Terri's loving husband suddenly remembered a conversation they had years ago, in which she said, "If I ever have a heart attack and suffer severe brain damage, I'd like to be slowly starved to death. Pass the bacon, please." But what if Michael Schiavo was out of the room when she made such a request? Who would fight for Terri Schiavo's right to die then? Who would protect her from unscrupulous doctors who wrap themselves in the Hippocratic Oath, seeking only to prolong the life of the ill and infirm?

Compassionate caregivers must always err on the side of Death with Dignity when the patient's true wishes are uncertain, and they should be able to do so with a clear conscience. Once health care is nationalized and medical resources are strictly rationed, a progressive doctor-assisted suicide program such as Oregon's will become a vital tool for keeping hospital beds open for those who truly need it. Religious extremists who are still hung up on all that "sanctity of human life" crap will be encouraged to draft a "Living Will" - a notarized document specifying their sincere desire to inconvenience doctors, loved ones, and society itself by remaining alive for another 40 years. This "Living Will" could be printed on a wallet-sized card that one would present to their doctor or dentist, explicity stating "I'm a Quaker. Due to my antiquated religious beliefs, I politely request that I not be euthanized on this visit. Yes, I know I have hallitosis that can kill a bull moose at 50 yards, but I'd like to pointlessly linger on for a few more years anyway, if you don't mind."

Once we free caregivers from the constrictive binds of guesswork and legal roadblocks, we can look forward to a bright future where the euthanization of undesirables is as natural, beautiful, and merciful as terminating unwanted pregnancies.
One of the best replies I've read on any subject in a long time. Well done.

[samikeyp]

I say we yank the feeding tube on this subject altogether.

I am all for that. The debate is at a stalemate here.

[desflood]

My mother-in-law made an interesting point. This was caused by bulimia. Looking at it from the same point of view as that (vanity), would she want people to be seeing her as she looks now? Shallow, of course, but an interesting theory...

[MannyIsGod]

One of the best replies I've read on any subject in a long time. Well done.

Sure, if you ignore the facts on the case.

They are there! I suggest anyone here who hasn't, read the actual judgement of the first case.

[Extra Stout]

If that were true, he would have demanded she be allowed to die 15 years ago when she entered her current physical condition. Instead, he waited seven years before deciding to be "sincere" about what his wife would have wanted. That doesn't add up.Immediately after her injury, a reasonable person might hold out hope for recovery. By the time several years passed, that hope would have passed.

In any regard, he allowed the state to determine based upon the available evidence what her wishes would have been.


No one knows what here wishes are.If the people of the state of Florida feel the current laws with regard to medical decisions are not sufficiently weighted in favor of life, then they should change them. However, our Constitution does not allow ex post facto laws, so they can not apply to Terry Schiavo.

If activists believe that the rule of law should be put aside in this case in order to preserve Terry Schiavo's life, then that is their opinion. So be it. But in that case the Christian pro-life movement can no longer be called politically conservative according to any definition that has been accepted since the days of FDR. Bypassing the rule of law because some think it is morally wrong, rather than changing the law, is the crux of what conservatives have disliked about bleeding-heart liberalism.

So, what I observe is that today the Christian right is best described as a socially conservative, politically bleeding-heart liberal, big-government political movement, similar to the old Southern Democrats.

And since that group is preeminent in the Republican Party, then the conservative movement is in decline.

[MannyIsGod]

True conservativism has been gone for a while now. This is simply the final realization of how far the neocons have strayed.

[travis2]

A different issue...

It seems there was a concerted attempt to deny Terri her religious freedom. According to these articles....

You make the call.

Terri Schiavo Denied Last Communion (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/19/13616.shtml)

Why Was Terri Denied Holy Communion? (http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=21368)

Will Terri Again be Denied Communion? (http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=27828)

[MannyIsGod]

Not cool at all.

[travis2]

Manny, I'm not looking to hijack this thread...this sort of thing deserves its own.

But this sort of thing also fuels my recent comments about the judiciary.

[Mr. Ash]

According to these articles
Old articles, I assume. two catholic priests attended the session where her tube was removed and gave communion. Will dig up the articles when I get a chance...

[MannyIsGod]

See, thats what I thought. I thought she was given communion through the tube before it was removed.

[travis2]

See, thats what I thought. I thought she was given communion through the tube before it was removed.

One of those is recent.

Also, how do you give communion through the feeding tube? That question was asked in one of those articles.

[MannyIsGod]

I have no idea man, but it was my understanidng a priest was there to bless it and do the whole 9 yards.

I could be wrong, I'm not sure.

[Bandit2981]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/


The tube was disconnected about 1:45 p.m., George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, told reporters. Friday's medical procedure was the third time the tube had been disconnected from the 41-year-old woman.

Present were her doctor, a number of other health care providers and a representative of her husband and guardian, Felos said. He said Terri Schiavo, who is Roman Catholic, received the sacrament of Communion from a hospice priest before the tube was disconnected.

"I am told that it was an emotional occasion. Prayers were said at the time, and the feeding tube was disconnected," Felos told reporters. "Mr. Schiavo currently is with his wife, at her bedside."

"It was a very calm, peaceful procedure," he said.

[Drachen]

nevermind.

[travis2]

It would seem they may have messed up in this article, it seems as if she should be getting her last rights, not communion.

It would not surprise me that they messed up the article.

However, the Eucharist is often included with the administering of the Anointing of the Sick. And, when the patient is lucid (not a player here), Reconciliation is also offered.

[travis2]

I have no idea man, but it was my understanidng a priest was there to bless it and do the whole 9 yards.

I could be wrong, I'm not sure.

It may be possible...but the question was raised, and I don't have an answer for it.

[Useruser666]

A question for you Manny.

What is the difference between sentencing someone to death and allowing the removal of this womans feeding tube?

[Drachen]

I just read the one that they tried to stop anointing of the sick, because they said you can only have it once, which is BS. It is the sacrement to prepare one's soul to meet with God, yet since we are fallible humans, we dont know the exact moment that we or anyone else is going to die so we may make a mistake. Ex. I received my last rights when I was 3 weeks old.

[travis2]

I just read the one that they tried to stop anointing of the sick, because they said you can only have it once, which is BS. It is the sacrement to prepare one's soul to meet with God, yet since we are fallible humans, we dont know the exact moment that we or anyone else is going to die so we may make a mistake. Ex. I received my last rights when I was 3 weeks old.

I find that many do not bother to find out much in the way of relevant information concerning the Catholic Church before committing authoritative thoughts to paper...

[MannyIsGod]

A question for you Manny.

What is the difference between sentencing someone to death and allowing the removal of this womans feeding tube?

One is the forceible taking of life, One is the refusal of medical services.

Very different.

[The Ressurrected One]

Immediately after her injury, a reasonable person might hold out hope for recovery. By the time several years passed, that hope would have passed.
Several years? So, you believe it took Mikey 8 years to come to accept the irreversibility of his wife's condition?

I find that argument dubious, at best.

If the federal courts do decide to look anew at the facts of the Terri Schiavo case, one of the central issues will be the credibility of husband Michael Schiavo's claim that she made clear she would want to die under the circumstances. Monday or Tuesday, Mr. Schiavo appeared on "Larry King Live," and a comment by his lawyer, George Felos (who fielded all questions from callers, though Schiavo responded directly to questions from the host), gave further reason for doubt:


Caller: "Quick comment. I'm not understanding why a blood relative wouldn't make this decision and not a non-blood relative. My question is, if this happened 15 years ago, and this gentleman and his wife decided between them that they would pull the tube and let each other die if they were in this kind of a situation, what took him eight years to make that decision and why didn't he make it in those first eight years and has now had another seven years tacked on? . . ."

Felos: "Sure. For those years, Michael was trying desperately to--as, I guess, he had a desperate hope that Terri would get better, despite the doctors telling him that, you know, Mike, there's nothing there, there is no hope. He refused to believe it. It took many, many years for Michael to finally, I guess, come to reality and believe that Terri was not coming back."
For eight years, in other words, Mr. Schiavo failed to carry out what he now insists -- and his supporters unquestioningly assert -- were her wishes.

Supporters of Michael Schiavo's effort to end his wife's life have asked how conservatives, who claim to believe in the sanctity of marriage, can fail to respect his husbandly authority. The most obvious answer is that a man's authority as a husband does not supersede his wife's rights as a human being--a principle I personally never thought I'd see liberals question.

But why do those of us who aren't right-to-life absolutists side with Mrs. Schiavo's parents, who want to keep her alive, over her husband, who wants her dead? It's a fair question, and it raises another one: What kind of husband is Michael Schiavo?

According to news reports, Mr. Schiavo lives with a woman named Jodi Centonze, and they have two children together. Surely any court would consider this prima facie evidence of adultery. And this is no mere fling; a sympathetic 2003 profile in the Orlando Sentinel described Centonze as Mr. Schiavo's "fiancée." Mr. Schiavo, in other words, has virtually remarried. Short of outright bigamy, his relationship with Centonze is as thoroughgoing a violation of his marriage vows as it is possible to imagine.

The point here is not to castigate Mr. Schiavo for behaving badly. It would require a heroic degree of self-sacrifice for a man to forgo love and sex in order to remain faithful to an incapacitated wife, and it would be unreasonable to hold an ordinary man to a heroic standard.

But it is equally unreasonable to let Mr. Schiavo have it both ways. If he wishes to assert his marital authority to do his wife in, the least society can expect in return is that he refrain from making a mockery of his marital obligations. The grimmest irony in this tragic case is that those who want Terri Schiavo dead are resting their argument on the fiction that her marriage is still alive.

[MannyIsGod]

He's not using any authority to "do his wife in". The State of Florida has ruled.

Why can't you (and the media for that matter) pick up on that?

This is not about the husband, it is about Terri Schiavo.

[Bandit2981]

welcome back, Yoni

[NeoConIV]

welcome back, Yoni
Werd!

[Useruser666]

One is the forceible taking of life, One is the refusal of medical services.

Very different.

But they both have the same ends. And both of the people's lives hang on the judgments of the courts.

[MannyIsGod]

Chris, I already gave you the reasoning. In my eyes, that poses a enourmous difference.

[The Ressurrected One]

I believe Charles Krauthammer, no stranger to suffering, has this one nailed.

Between Travesty and Tragedy

By Charles Krauthammer
Wednesday, March 23, 2005

If I were in Terri Schiavo's condition, I would not want a feeding tube. But Schiavo does not have the means to make her intentions known. We do not know what she would have wanted. We have nothing to go on. No living will, no advance directives, no durable power of attorney.

What do you do when you have nothing to go on? You try to intuit her will, using loved ones as surrogates.


In this case, the loved ones disagree. The husband wants Terri to die; the parents do not. The Florida court gave the surrogacy to her husband, under the generally useful rule that your spouse is the most reliable diviner of your wishes: You pick your spouse and not your parents, and you have spent most of your recent years with your spouse and not your parents.

The problem is that although your spouse probably knows you best, there is no guarantee that he will not confuse his wishes with yours. Terri's spouse presents complications. He has a girlfriend, and has two kids with her. He clearly wants to marry again. And a living Terri stands in the way.

Now, all of this may be irrelevant in his mind. He may actually be acting entirely based on his understanding of his wife's wishes. And as she left nothing behind, the courts have been forced to conclude, on the basis of his testimony, that she would prefer to be dead.

That is why this is a terrible case. The general rule of spousal supremacy leads you here to a thoroughly repulsive conclusion. Repulsive because in a case where there is no consensus among the loved ones, one's natural human sympathies suggest giving custody to the party committed to her staying alive and pledging to carry the burden themselves.

Let's be clear about her condition. She is not dead. If she were brain-dead, we would be talking about harvesting her organs. She is a living, breathing human being. Some people have called her a vegetable. Apart from the term being disgusting, how do they know? How can we be sure of the complete absence of any consciousness, any awareness, any anything "inside" this person?

The crucial issue in deciding whether one would want to intervene to keep her alive is whether there is, as one bioethicist put it to me, "anyone home." Her parents, who see her often, believe that there is. The husband maintains that there is no one home. (But then again he has another home, making his judgment somewhat suspect.) The husband has not allowed a lot of medical testing in the past few years. I have tried to find out what her neurological condition actually is. But the evidence is sketchy, old and conflicting. The Florida court found that most of her cerebral cortex is gone. But "most" does not mean all. There may be some cortex functioning. The severely retarded or brain-damaged can have some consciousness. And we do not go around euthanizing the minimally conscious in the back wards of mental hospitals on the grounds that their lives are not worth living.

Given our lack of certainty, given that there are loved ones prepared to keep her alive and care for her, how can you allow the husband to end her life on his say-so? Because following the sensible rules of Florida custody laws, conducted with due diligence and great care over many years in this case, this is where the law led.

For Congress and the president to then step in and try to override that by shifting the venue to a federal court was a legal travesty, a flagrant violation of federalism and the separation of powers. The federal judge who refused to reverse the Florida court was certainly true to the law. But the law, while scrupulous, has been merciless, and its conclusion very troubling morally. We ended up having to choose between a legal travesty on the one hand and human tragedy on the other.

There is no good outcome to this case. Except perhaps if Florida and the other states were to amend their laws and resolve conflicts among loved ones differently -- by granting authority not necessarily to the spouse but to whatever first-degree relative (even if in the minority) chooses life and is committed to support it. Call it Terri's law. It would help prevent our having to choose in the future between travesty and tragedy.

[The Ressurrected One]

He's not using any authority to "do his wife in". The State of Florida has ruled.

Why can't you (and the media for that matter) pick up on that?

This is not about the husband, it is about Terri Schiavo.
With all due respect, the State of Florida ruled the way they did because of his testimony.

[MannyIsGod]

With all due respect, the State of Florida ruled the way they did because of his testimony.

In part because of his testimony. His was not the only testimony in the case. Also, the testimony that contradicted his and others was inconsistent and inaccurate.

For instance, the mother tried to use a conversation to prove that her daughte would not have wanted to die. First, she said the conversation occoured when Terri was an adult. Later, when confronted about the discrepencies in the timeline of her testimony, she admitted it hapend when Terri was 11-12.

And that's only one example of the kind of testimony the parents brought to court.

[Useruser666]

Chris, I already gave you the reasoning. In my eyes, that poses a enourmous difference.

But, would agree that in both instances the lives of these people are decided by the courts?

[Extra Stout]

I believe Charles Krauthammer, no stranger to suffering, has this one nailed.I think he does too. I would agree that given such a distasteful outcome, the state of Florida needs to look at its laws with regard to how these decisions are made.

But we shouldn't just ignore or circumvent the laws because we don't like the way they are carried out. We live under the rule of law, not the rule of men.

President Bush should know this, since his election to his first term depended upon stopping Florida judges from throwing away the laws and making it up as they went along.

[NeoConIV]

For Congress and the president to then step in and try to override that by shifting the venue to a federal court was a legal travesty, a flagrant violation of federalism and the separation of powers. The federal judge who refused to reverse the Florida court was certainly true to the law. But the law, while scrupulous, has been merciless, and its conclusion very troubling morally. We ended up having to choose between a legal travesty on the one hand and human tragedy on the other.

:depressed

[NeoConIV]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050323/i/r4209066064.jpg

Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

Currently on Drudge...

It's over. :depressed It's over.

[MannyIsGod]

But, would agree that in both instances the lives of these people are decided by the courts?

No.

I already know where you're going with this.

Anyhow, No, because one takes testimony on the wishes of the person, while the other one hands down an abitrary judgement.

Once again, very different outcomes.

Yes, there are chances for error on both ends, but the 2 court systems are fundementaly different for many reasons.

[samikeyp]

So, you believe it took Mikey 8 years to come to accept the irreversibility of his wife's condition?

Hey! Leave me out of this! :p

[desflood]

Gov. Bush Seeks to Take Custody of Schiavo

2 hours, 45 minutes ago U.S. National - AP


By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to reinsert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.


AP Photo


AFP
Slideshow: Terri Schiavo Right-to-Die Case

Judge Won't Order Reinsertion of Feeding Tube
(AP Video)



The desperate flurry of activity came as President Bush (news - web sites) suggested that Congress and the White House had done all they could to keep the severely brain-damaged woman alive.

[The Ressurrected One]

In part because of his testimony.
No. Without his testimony, this case would have never - I repeat, NEVER - been heard and she'd still be getting nourishment.

The court rulings are, in their entirety, a direct result of his statement seven years ago, eight years after his wife became incapacitated and (not coincidentally, I bet) about the time he took up with his current bed mate.

Sorry, the Florida courts are stooges to rule against Mrs. Schiavo's life under these circumstances.

[JoeChalupa]

Those Florida courts, if they are stooges, ruled by the law and the top court in Florida has judges who the majority were appointed by Jeb Bush.

I think the Supreme Court will say no and this will come to end, a tragic end because anytime a life is lost it is tragic.

[MannyIsGod]

No. Without his testimony, this case would have never - I repeat, NEVER - been heard and she'd still be getting nourishment.

The court rulings are, in their entirety, a direct result of his statement seven years ago, eight years after his wife became incapacitated and (not coincidentally, I bet) about the time he took up with his current bed mate.

Sorry, the Florida courts are stooges to rule against Mrs. Schiavo's life under these circumstances.

And without the other testimony, it woudln't have happend either.

Read the judgement.

I'm tired of people pissed about this case.

This is about Terri. Not what you want, not what the parents want, not what her husband wants.

[Hook Dem]

And without the other testimony, it woudln't have happend either.

Read the judgement.

I'm tired of people pissed about this case.

This is about Terri. Not what you want, not what the parents want, not what her husband wants.
You are tired of people being pissed about this case????? Spare me your wonderful world of wisdom. After this woman dies, you can expect a HUGE outrage in this country and heads are going to roll. This country has stooped to an all time low when we sentence this woman to a slow aggonizing death when we afford more humane treatment to animals.I have read your posts over and over and I have yet to see one bit of compassion from you. You have a need to show your intellect by stating over and over that the final ruling came after the "facts" were considered. There hasn't even been an MRI done on her to determine how much damage was done to the body. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I am too. I'm done arguing this issue so don't even bother to reply to me. Just be prepared to see an outrage from a sad nation.

[samikeyp]

Most of the polls I have seen (CNN, MSNBC, Today show) have indicated most people support the removal of the feeding tube and protest government intervention. I don't think there will be a huge national outrage over her treatment but I can see more people doing what they can to make sure this doesn't happen to them.

Just my .02

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, these stories get huge when white women are involved.

[MannyIsGod]

There hasn't even been an MRI done on her to determine how much damage was done to the body. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I am too. I'm done arguing this issue so don't even bother to reply to me. Just be prepared to see an outrage from a sad nation.

Once again, the MRI wasn't/isn't relative because Terri is being kept alive on life support, which she woudln't have wanted.

It's not about whether or not she has a chance to recover, it's about whether or not she would have wanted the treatment.

Hook, you deinfetly have your right to an opinion, and I understand what you are saying.

However, the only time I've seen this portrayed in the media correctly was during Nightline, when they actualy spoke of her right to refuse medical service.

[sbsquared]

FOR THE LAST TIME MANNY - SHE'S NOT ON LIFE SUPPORT!!!!!!! She's on a feeding tube because she can't feed herself!! You are spouting the same misinformation and outright lies that the media is.

As for the polls - the questions were written so as to exaggerate Terri's condition, i.e. that Terri is on life support and would die anyway. That is just not true- so the polls aren't reliable.

Also Manny - new information has come to light about the Doctor who originally examined Terri and upon whose evaluation the whole case hinges on. It turns out the Doctor was handpicked by Michael Schiavo and he's a staunch supporter of the Right to Die movement and is a favorite speaker for the Hemlock Society. He's publicly stated that he believes family members should never seek to keep loved ones alive. Still think this case wasn't rigged?

Again, if this kind of information was raised in a death penalty case, the courts would be all over it and people would be screaming for a stay of execution!

[MannyIsGod]

FOR THE LAST TIME MANNY - SHE'S NOT ON LIFE SUPPORT!!!!!!! She's on a feeding tube because she can't feed herself!! You are spouting the same misinformation and outright lies that the media is.


I suggest you read Florida's defenition of life support then tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead.



As for the polls - the questions were written so as to exaggerate Terri's condition, i.e. that Terri is on life support and would die anyway. That is just not true- so the polls aren't reliable.


Polls have consistently shown that people in this country would want the "plug pulled" in these types of situations. This is nothing new, and the numbers were always very high (in the 70 percentile).



Also Manny - new information has come to light about the Doctor who originally examined Terri and upon whose evaluation the whole case hinges on. It turns out the Doctor was handpicked by Michael Schiavo and he's a staunch supporter of the Right to Die movement and is a favorite speaker for the Hemlock Society. He's publicly stated that he believes family members should never seek to keep loved ones alive. Still think this case wasn't rigged?


No, because if you read information about the first case (you still haven't, have you?) you'll see that the family has a large number of doctors come to testify, there wans't just one.

What kind of doctors do you think Schiavo's side would pick?



Again, if this kind of information was raised in a death penalty case, the courts would be all over it and people would be screaming for a stay of execution!

She's had MORE attention, and MORE appeals than any capital punishment case. Give me a break!

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and I'm still waiting for your response in the other thread. Have you read any of hte first hand information or are you still simply relaying on the media to educate you on the case?

[samikeyp]

Everyone wants to do what they want and not what this poor lady wants. Whether we like it or not, her wishes per her spouse were not to live like this. Who are we to intervene in someone else's business and impose said beliefs? If it were my wife in this state and her wish was not to be in this state and I took the neccessary steps to remove her from this state and anyone tried to stop me, I would shoot them in the fucking head. They wouldn't have the right to butt in.

[NeoConIV]

If someone took away my food and water when I didn't want to die, if I were to be rehabilitated I go find the bastards and beat them to an inch of their life.

[samikeyp]

that is a fair point and you have that right. However, I don't have the right to intervene on your wishes to push my own agenda. If that is your wish, you deserve to have that wish honored and if you couldn't speak for yourself it would be up your guardian. Whether you wrote that down or not, if that was what the person duly designated to speak for you stated were your wishes, no one else would have the right to come in and try and change that.

[Hook Dem]

"Whether we like it or not, her wishes per her spouse were not to live like this. Who are we to intervene in someone else's business and impose said beliefs?"............And therein lies the problem! Should the courts just take his word for this when he is in line for insurance money and the fact that he has a common law wife now with 2 children? How do you really know this isn't another Scott Peterson? He just might be going about it differently by letting the courts do his dirty work. Can you prove this isn't a possibility?

[NameDropper]

"Whether we like it or not, her wishes per her spouse were not to live like this. Who are we to intervene in someone else's business and impose said beliefs?"............And therein lies the problem! Should the courts just take his word for this when he is in line for insurance money and the fact that he has a common law wife now with 2 children? How do you really know this isn't another Scott Peterson? He just might be going about it differently by letting the courts do his dirty work. Can you prove this isn't a possibility?

True, but can you prove that her husband is out for the insurance money?
Should the courts just take the word of her parents who are NOT her legal guardians by law?

[samikeyp]

How do you really know this isn't another Scott Peterson? He just might be going about it differently by letting the courts do his dirty work. Can you prove this isn't a possibility?

He very well might be. He might be a scam artist. It is just as much of a possibility that he is on the level. My point was the courts shouldn't be involved at all. Its between Michael and Terry Schaivo. No one else has a right to intervene.

[MannyIsGod]

There is NO insurance money. ZERO DOLLARS.

[Experiment2100]

There is NO insurance money. ZERO DOLLARS.

six words: Book Deal/Crappy Network movie rights

He stands to bank quite alot.

[NeoConIV]

Terri's fate is sealed.http://generationignored.net/images/skull-crossbones.jpgSo be it.



My heart goes out to the parents in this 11th hour. Days ago, I'm sure they thought everything would work out. The final minutes of her life must be excruciatingly painful as a parent. Like sand through their fingers.

[Useruser666]

Maybe the husbands just demented and wants to kill her. I don't think there is a lack of motive in this case. I don't know how much of an issue that is though.

[NeoConIV]

Doesn't Michael want to bar an autopsy? isn't he adamant about having her cremated? No, that's not fishy!

Let me guess, Terri wanted it that way, right?

[Samurai Jane]

Not that this has any bearing on the legalities or anything, I just find it extremely interesting that he put a DNR on her charts and ordered them to cease rehabililtation shortly after winning the malpractice suit, in 93, not 8 years after her collapse...

[samikeyp]

Let me guess, Terri wanted it that way, right?

maybe she did, you or I don't know one way or the other.

[NeoConIV]

What's wrong with an autopsy, then cremation? What could Michael possibly be afraid of? Is he trying to hide something?

[samikeyp]

Nothing wrong with it to me. Some people prefer cremation. Some people do not want it. Same with autopsies. Just because we are ok with it or think it should happen doesn't mean it has to be that way.

[NeoConIV]

So the fact that Michael is trying to prevent an autopsy before cremation is simply a matter of preferences, rather than motives? Am I reading you right, Inspector Clouseau? :lol

[samikeyp]

no you are not, but that is possible. I am saying I don't know what his motives are. I do not know the man nor have I ever spoken with him so I cannot know what his motives are. I can theorize or guess or make an assumption but there is no guarantee of accuracy and therefore cannot be a fact.

[NeoConIV]

Off the record, what are your assumptions about Michael regarding his desire to rush Terri through crematorium without an autopsy?

[samikeyp]

I really haven't made any. It that dude's call. I know that some people have issues about autopsies and that they feel its a violation of the deceased. A belief that I do not share. I am not sure that she would need an autopsy. Her condition was diagnosed and confirmed and the cause of death would be as well. I have heard some conspiracy theorists drop the spousal abuse card. I am not sure what he could be hiding and honestly I don't care. (that sounds cruel and I really don't mean it to be) I just believe that the committments and obligations you take on when you get married should not be interfered with. As I have said here previously, if my wife and I were in this situation, my wife has made it clear to me that she would not want to live like this. As her spouse and guardian in that situation, I would have to honor her wishes above everybody else and I feel that nobody has the right to tell me how to do that.

[samikeyp]

sorry about that...got a little long winded. :)

[NeoConIV]

Are we the only suckers not off on Good Friday? :depressed

Anyways, I understand what you're saying. But as a hypothetical, strictly a hypothetical, if Michael is being genuinely dishonest about this whole thing, if he lied and fabricated Terri's intentions... is he getting away with murder?

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, if he lied it's murder.

I find it incredible the way this man's character has been attacked. Judge Greer didn't question his honesty, but did question that of the parents.

Oh well, I've argued this enough, everyone will draw away from it what they will. As I said before, I think this will definetly spur many people to draw up living wills or at least make their intentions clear.

[Samurai Jane]

Download advance directives forms (http://www.texashealth.org/main.asp-enorgid-FD16313ECC5746F587B853622D072D1F-level-2-id-DD579008B2CC42419E907944C83DBFE9) It's certainly made me think about it alot...

[samikeyp]

Yes we are!! :)

And yes if he is lying, I would consider that murder.

[Drachen]

"Whether we like it or not, her wishes per her spouse were not to live like this. Who are we to intervene in someone else's business and impose said beliefs?"............And therein lies the problem! Should the courts just take his word for this when he is in line for insurance money and the fact that he has a common law wife now with 2 children? How do you really know this isn't another Scott Peterson? He just might be going about it differently by letting the courts do his dirty work. Can you prove this isn't a possibility?


Plus, you do realize that he was offered a total of 11 million dollars from two different places (10 million from one source, and 1 million from another) to have the feeding tube re-inserted, right? So if he is out for the money what gives? He had money he could have taken . . . What other reason could he have for continuing to pursue this?







psst: wishes of the spouse...

[MannyIsGod]

Drachan, he no longer has a right to keep her on life support, so those offers were meaningless. He didn't lose anything by turning them down.

[Drachen]

Drachan, he no longer has a right to keep her on life support, so those offers were meaningless. He didn't lose anything by turning them down.

I realize this, but it would make their appeals that much stronger if he just took the money and ran.

[Jekka]

He can't take the money, he hasn't that power to do so for 8 years. Just like there is no life insurance etc etc.

[Drachen]

Hey these different millionares were offering the money directly to him to abandon his desire to have the feeding tube pulled. Now regardless of if he had the power or not, he didnt take the money. In other words, money obviously isnt the motivator here.

[ididnotnothat]

Liberals are fighting to allow Terry Schiavo to die, are pro-abortion, yet oppose the death penalty.

Conservatives are fighting to keep Terry Schiavo alive, are anti-abortion, yet support the death penalty.


Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Will somebody tell Bill Frist to make up his damn mind? First he wants to disconnect those in a vegetative state (in his book Transplant). Now, when it is politically expedient, Frist is leading the charge to keep a person in a similar vegetative state alive through artificial means.

Pathetic.


"And, although Frist writes frequently about the ethical issues surrounding transplants--for example, the question of when death begins--he approaches these issues in starkly scientific terms, with little patience for religious objections.

"Near the end of the book, for example, Frist suggests changing the legal definition of 'brain death' to include anencephalic babies, who are born with a fatal neurological disorder but show just the slightest hint of brain-stem activity. Such a change would make it possible to harvest their organs for transplant--something the Catholic Church and pro-life groups oppose. 'Three thousand anencephalic babies were born a year, enough to solve our demand many times over--but we never used them.'"

[The New Republic, 1/27/03]

[Shelly]

Honestly, why do we even know who this person is?

It's turned into a 3 ring circus now. Sad.

[samikeyp]

Good point Shell.....I think its because something like this hits home. People get riled up about goverment intervention and where it should and shouldn't be and they also get riled up about the whole "right to die" thing.

[Shelly]

I know...but like SW (?) said, this goes on every day? Who brought this to the attention of the media? Her husband or parents?

[The Ressurrected One]

I know...but like SW (?) said, this goes on every day? Who brought this to the attention of the media? Her husband or parents?
It doesn't happen every day that there is such disagreement over the course of treatment for the patient among such close family members.

If you thought your son-in-law was unnecessarily pulling the plug on your daughter wouldn't you move heaven and earth to stop him? Whether you were right or wrong?

[Shelly]

I sure as hell wouldn't alert the media.

[desflood]

THE TERRI SCHIAVO CASE
DeLay's Own Tragic Crossroads
Family of the lawmaker involved in the Schiavo case decided in '88 to let his comatose father die.


Photos


Bond
(Alex Wong / Getty Images)

Coverage of the legal battle and related issues.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





FAMILIES

RIGHT TO DIE

DELAY TOM

THE TERRI SCHIAVO CASE

TEXAS FAMILIES RIGHT TO DIE

TEXAS











By Walter F. Roche Jr. and Sam Howe Verhovek, Times Staff Writers


CANYON LAKE, Texas — A family tragedy that unfolded in a Texas hospital during the fall of 1988 was a private ordeal — without judges, emergency sessions of Congress or the debate raging outside Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice.

The patient then was a 65-year-old drilling contractor, badly injured in a freak accident at his home. Among the family members keeping vigil at Brooke Army Medical Center was a grieving junior congressman — Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas).










More than 16 years ago, far from the political passions that have defined the Schiavo controversy, the DeLay family endured its own wrenching end-of-life crisis. The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and oxygen equipment, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay.

Then, freshly reelected to a third term in the House, the 41-year-old DeLay waited, all but helpless, for the verdict of doctors.

Today, as House Majority Leader, DeLay has teamed with his Senate counterpart, Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), to champion political intervention in the Schiavo case. They pushed emergency legislation through Congress to shift the legal case from Florida state courts to the federal judiciary.

And DeLay is among the strongest advocates of keeping the woman, who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, connected to her feeding tube. DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls "an act of barbarism" in removing the tube.

In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old widowed mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew — we all knew — his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way."

Doctors advised that he would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay.

When his father's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do not resuscitate."

On Dec. 14, 1988, the DeLay patriarch "expired with his family in attendance."

"The situation faced by the congressman's family was entirely different than Terri Schiavo's," said a spokesman for the majority leader, who declined requests for an interview.

"The only thing keeping her alive is the food and water we all need to survive. His father was on a ventilator and other machines to sustain him," said Dan Allen, DeLay's press aide.

There were also these similarities: Both stricken patients were severely brain-damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared from being kept alive by artificial means. And neither of them had a living will.

This previously unpublished account of the majority leader's personal brush with life-ending decisions was assembled from court files, medical records and interviews with family members.

[MannyIsGod]

It actually does happen everday. Do you think this is the first case in Florida? No, this case has recived so much more attention than the average case it's not even in the same leauge.

[JoeChalupa]

I too wondered why this is such a big case. Families make these tough decisions all the time.

[Extra Stout]

I can't begrudge the Schindlers for what they've done. They love their daughter and believe what they're doing is in her best interest.

I don't believe wild speculation about Michael Schiavo's motives is very productive. At the very best, we have a cursory glance of the facts, warped to some degree by the ideology of whichever sources we are using. The law in the case is crystal clear, which is why these appeals have been so fruitless. Florida legislators need to change the laws so that in future cases there is a much higher standard required for a trial court acting as a patient's surrogate to rule that a patient would wish lifesaving treatment to be withheld.

It doesn't surprise me that Bill Frist is being inconsistent here -- after all, he is running for President in 2008 and thinks he needs to secure the support of the fundamentalist idiots. However, by failing to think this through, he now is vulnerable to some very effective negative campaign ads by a small-government conservative rival telling potential Republican primary voters that dear Dr. Frist thinks he knows more than them and wants to make their families' private medical decisions for them.

[samikeyp]

Doesn't Michael want to bar an autopsy?

no. Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/28/schiavo/index.html)