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View Full Version : Exploding 3 myths about the Spurs



GSH
04-10-2009, 10:48 PM
There are some populare myths that are often discussed about the Spurs. I want to take a shot at a few of them.

1. The Spurs stats are low because they play at a slower pace than other teams.

Partially true. The Spurs average 91.5 possessions per game, exactly the same as last season. But 3 teams average fewer possessions per game - New Orleans (90.5), Detroit (90.4), and Portland (90.0). And Cleveland is very close at 91.8 possessions per game.

By itself, this myth is not so important. But it takes on major importance when considering some of the Spurs' other stats, like RB's and FTA's. I think many fans would be surprised to hear that the Spurs pace is almost identical to that of the Cavs. And I know that a lot will be surprised to hear that even though the Spurs are 27th in the league in possessions per game, they rank 11th in the league in both FGM and AST per game - and 4th in DRB per game. Amazing that with so few possessions, they can still rank so high in certain stats, don't you think? It's enough to make you question why they rank so low in other areas.

2. The Spurs are not a good rebounding team.
Even though the Spurs rank near the bottom in possessions per game, they rank near the middle of the pack (19th) in total rebounds per game. But that only tells part of the story. In defensive rebounding, they are an astounding 4th in the league - impressive, considering the pace of their games. In offensive rebounding, however, they are not only dead last in the league, they are a very distant last. The other 4 teams (above), that play at a similar or slower pace, all pull down considerably more offensive boards than the Spurs. But... that has more to do with Pop's philosophy of dropping guys back to guard against fast breaks instead of crashing the boards. Based on those numbers, you could conclude that the Spurs are the best defensive rebounding team in the league (pace adjusted). And even though their overall rebounding is dragged down by Pop's 1-2-3-back philosophy, their total rebounds per game are still among the better in the league when adjusted for pace.

Still not convinced? There is another stat called Rebounding % which, simply stated, means "what percentage of available rebounds does the team pull down?" The Spurs Defensive Rebounding % is .778, which is 1st in the league by a huge margin. In fact, the gap between them and the 2nd place team (Orlando - .759) is the largest between any two places on the list. (The gap between 1st and 2nd is the same as the gap between 2nd and 12th place.) The Spurs are, in fact, the best defensive rebounding team in the league. But, not surprisingly, their Offensive Rebounding % of .219 is by far the worst in the league.

The Spurs are the best at defensive rebounding, the worst at offensive rebounding, and in the middle overall. But don't lose sight of the fact that sacrificing offensive boards is part of Pop's game plan. That's why he focuses on opponent FG%. He wants to make the opponent miss, pull down the defensive boards, and grind it out on the other end - not give up easy, high percentage shots on fast breaks. Not because they are incapable of rebounding.

3. The Spurs incredibly low number of FTA's are due to the slow pace of their games, and the fact that they shoot so many 3's.

Partially true. Both of those things are factors, but they don't come near to telling the whole story. I know that a lot of people are so negative about the Spurs right now that they don't want to hear it, but pace and playing style are not the only reason for the Spurs' low Free Throw Attempts. [Request: Before you start flaming about this one, read and keep an open mind. You just might be surprised.]

I could take about 3 pages on this subject. But the easiest thing is to take a close look at Tony Parker's numbers. If that doesn't convince you, you don't want to be convinced:

I think everyone will agree that Parker is one of the best PG's in the league. Out of all the top-tier PG's in the league, Parker shoots by far the fewest 3-pointers, and takes the most shots in the paint. To illustrate, Tony has taken 1,191 FGA's this season, and Chris Paul has taken 1,186 FGA's. But Tony has taken 488 shots in the paint (41%) and only 62 3-pointers (5%). Chris Paul has taken 308 shots in the paint (26%) and 164 3-pointers (14%). Given their number of shots, and shot selection, you would expect Tony to have drawn quite a few more whistles than CP3. But you would be wrong. Paul has drawn a total of 268 whistles vs. just 182 for Tony. Whenever Chris Paul drives the paint, he gets the benefit of a whistle just about twice as often as Tony Parker. Which is odd, since they both make about 63% of their shots in the paint, and Paul shoots a much higher FT%. There's no reason why they would feel the need to foul Paul more often than Tony. The difference is that Tony just doesn't get the calls. [Note: I already factored in the And-1 opportunities on both players. If you want to dispute what I've said, find something else.]

Think that's an isolated case? Look at how often some of the other PG's in the league get to the line, compared to Tony. And keep in mind that Tony isn't shooting 3's, and he is shooting more shots in the paint than any of them. He's taking the shots that should be earning him whistles.

..............Whistles........2P FGA....Shots in Paint
Parker........182.............1129...........488
Paul...........268.............1022...........308
D. Harris.....402...............808...........401
Billups........233...............560...........169
D. Will........187...............714...........305
Stuckey.....156...............797............217

That's right... Tony averages 1 whistle for every 2.7 shots he takes in the paint. Rodney freakin' Stuckey averages one whistle for every 1.4 shots he takes in the paint. (Even though he only completes about 50% of his shots in the paint vs. 63% for Parker. And even though he shoots a higher FT% than Parker.) Devin Harris averages 1 whistle for every shot he takes in the paint. So do you believe that teams are really fouling Stuckey twice as often, or Devin Harris three times as often as Parker? Or are the zebras just not blowing their whistles for Tony?

It is worth noting that the Spurs are shooting exactly the same number of 3P shots per game (19.7) as they did last season, and fewer than Cleveland (20.3) who plays at virtually the same pace. You might be surpised to know that the Cavs average just 35.5 points in the paint, compared to 34.4 for the Spurs. In fact, if you look at where the Cavs get their production, you will find that, other than LeBron and Varejao, the Cavs have a lot of players who don't go to the paint any more often than the Spurs' players do. (Would you be surprised to hear that Ilgauskas only shoots about a third of his shots in the paint, and West only shoots about 20% of his shots in the paint?) The Spurs are really no more of a jump-shooting, 3P shooting team than the Cavs, overall.

If you take the time to really look at the Cavs numbers, you find that most of them are uncannily similar to the Spurs. The two most telling differences are Opponent 3P%, and FTA's per game. The Spurs haven't defended the 3 ball well this season. But the bulk of the discrepancy in FTA's is on the zebras. If they just gave Tony the FTA's he deserves, most of the difference would be erased. You may not like it, or believe it, but it's true.

TampaDude
04-10-2009, 10:51 PM
Excellent analysis...however, the only stat that counts in the end is wins and losses.

GSH
04-10-2009, 11:03 PM
Excellent analysis...however, the only stat that counts in the end is wins and losses.

The FT stats on Tony are going to the league office early next week. (I've already got some support on this one.) The numbers are overwhelming. And the difference that a + 2-3 ppg makes is huge. It would almost certainly have made a difference of several games in their regular season record. In the playoffs... who knows?

The other was just a diversion for the people who talk about how the Spurs need so much help on the boards. It would be hard for them to improve their defensive rebounding by a huge amount. And as long as their strategy is to defend the break, they are going to be weak in offensive boards.

Libri
04-10-2009, 11:04 PM
The Spurs defensive rebounding % is an interesting stat.

timvp
04-10-2009, 11:15 PM
1. Using per possession stats is a good way to even the playing field.

2. That's something that many of us have tried to hammer into Spurs fans' heads over the last few years, with limited success. Not only do the Spurs lead the league in defensive rebounding percentage, that mark is the highest mark in NBA history. No team in history has grabbed a higher percentage of defensive rebounds than this Spurs team. As astonishing as that may be.

3. The problem with Parker is that he is just a poor flopper. He's not good at accentuating contact. I've said since Manu arrived that I wish he'd take Parker to Argentina during the summers to teach him how to properly flop. It'd probably get him three or four more points per game.

On top of that, Parker is slippery when driving the paint. The same skill that allows him to weave to the basket is the same thing that makes it difficult to foul him. And when there is contact, Parker is usually the one creating the contact.

It'd be nice if there were some sort of conspiracy or something the league can look at to give Parker more call .... but there's nothing there. Sorry.

timvp
04-10-2009, 11:26 PM
WTF... CP3 can do the job ... or any other american no need to go to a 3rd would country rigth LJ?CP3 is on the Spurs?

Kori Ellis
04-10-2009, 11:27 PM
WTF... CP3 can do the job ... or any other american no need to go to a 3rd would country rigth LJ?

LJ's parents are on vacation in that "3rd would country" right now. :lol

rascal
04-10-2009, 11:29 PM
Who cares about the cavs. How do the spurs compare with the lakers with in the paint points? Thats the team they have to get through to even get to the finals.

anonoftheinternets
04-10-2009, 11:31 PM
1. Using per possession stats is a good way to even the playing field.

2. That's something that many of us have tried to hammer into Spurs fans' heads over the last few years, with limited success. Not only do the Spurs lead the league in defensive rebounding percentage, that mark is the highest mark in NBA history. No team in history has grabbed a higher percentage of defensive rebounds than this Spurs team. As astonishing as that may be.

3. The problem with Parker is that he is just a poor flopper. He's not good at accentuating contact. I've said since Manu arrived that I wish he'd take Parker to Argentina during the summers to teach him how to properly flop. It'd probably get him three or four more points per game.

On top of that, Parker is slippery when driving the paint. The same skill that allows him to weave to the basket is the same thing that makes it difficult to foul him. And when there is contact, Parker is usually the one creating the contact.

It'd be nice if there were some sort of conspiracy or something the league can look at to give Parker more call .... but there's nothing there. Sorry.

the one other guy who is slippery and finishes at a high rate is bryant. But since bryant has a better vertical, most defenders end up hitting his arm, or making obvious contact. With parker, being quicker, and lower, he ends up being lost in a sea of defenders. :( sucks tho, we could really use those FTAs

rascal
04-10-2009, 11:36 PM
Parker often just blows past his man for open layups. He is the fastest in the league. Thats a big reason why he shoots at such a high fg%.

onarollbaby
04-10-2009, 11:54 PM
So the Spurs are so good they should be contending for a ring this year huh...?

why not? the last time I checked the standings we are running 3rd-5th in the west so we are still a contender

GSH
04-11-2009, 12:22 AM
2. That's something that many of us have tried to hammer into Spurs fans' heads over the last few years, with limited success. Not only do the Spurs lead the league in defensive rebounding percentage, that mark is the highest mark in NBA history. No team in history has grabbed a higher percentage of defensive rebounds than this Spurs team. As astonishing as that may be.

3. ... On top of that, Parker is slippery when driving the paint. The same skill that allows him to weave to the basket is the same thing that makes it difficult to foul him. And when there is contact, Parker is usually the one creating the contact.

It'd be nice if there were some sort of conspiracy or something the league can look at to give Parker more call .... but there's nothing there. Sorry.


I noticed one thing about the rebounding stats that is really cool:
The Spurs only grab 22% of the available offensive boards, which is by far the worst in the league. But they take down 78% of the available defensive rebounds. It's just coincidence that those two add up to exactly 100%. But what it means is that when teams play against the Spurs, they grab (on average) exactly the same, crappy 22% of available offensive boards that the Spurs get all the time.

As for the FT's, I never said conspiracy. But bias is a slippery thing, and sometimes expectations can be self-fulfilling. That's why I got so twisted a few seasons ago when all of the articles and blogs exploded about the Spurs being the most prolific floppers in the league. Not because I give a damn about opinions, but because expectations influence perceptions. (There's a reason why defense attornies worry about publicity tainting a jury pool. It can be a bitch to "prove", but t is a reality of the human condition.) If it is widely "accepted" that the Spurs are flopping more than the other teams, then it stands to reason that the refs should exercise more restraint with their whistles.

I respect your opinion, and I understand it. But in this case, I disagree. I'm very familiar with Marc Cuban's attempts to prove that his team gets the shaft on foul calls. And a lot of the statistical "methodology" that he and his toadies attempt to use is ludicrous. That kind of stupidity makes it easy to dismiss any similar suggestions, no matter how well founded.

We considered the idea that Tony is actually avoiding contact more effectively than the other PG's. And I have no doubt that accounts for a portion of the disparity. But the lane is a crowded place far too often; and CP3 and Devin Harris are very quick and talented in their own right. It just isn't possible to support the idea that Tony is so much better than them that he can slip through the paint untouched twice as often as Paul, and three times as often as Harris.

There is a lot more data that would have taken several pages to present, and maybe 3-4 people would have read it. But there is bias present. That doesn't prove, or even imply conspiracy. Personally, I believe that the expectation that Tony is constantly flopping has grown to the point that it influences the perception of the referees. Whatever the case, the disparity in whistles simply cannot be explained by the amount of contact that is actually taking place. That means that it is based on the amount of contact perceived.

I know that Parker initiates contact in the lane, but no more so than other PG's. We could probably use game video to try and make the case that CP3 initiates more contact, but that is a Marc Cuban technique, and it is entirely subjective. The beef is about consistency and parity. Anything else is a blind alley.

.

jag
04-11-2009, 12:23 AM
This is just a question, but isn't rebounding % actually just the ratio of Defensive to Offensive rebounds your team has?

TS defined it as: "what percentage of available rebounds does the team pull down"

It doesnt seem like the Spurs pull down 77.8% of all available defensive rebounds... but i can obviously see that 77.8% of their rebounds are defensive rebounds. I don't necessarily think that stat is indicative of the Spurs being a great defensive rebounding team, however, it obviously shows the disparity between the two types of rebounds.

Or maybe i've misunderstood the definition of that stat...and what i've said doesn't matter for shit.

timvp
04-11-2009, 12:37 AM
This is just a question, but isn't rebounding % actually just the ratio of Defensive to Offensive rebounds your team has?No. Defensive rebounding percentage is the percentage of available defensive rebounds a team grabs.

GSH
04-11-2009, 12:41 AM
This is just a question, but isn't rebounding % actually just the ratio of Defensive to Offensive rebounds your team has?

TS defined it as: "what percentage of available rebounds does the team pull down"

It doesnt seem like the Spurs pull down 77.8% of all available defensive rebounds... but i can obviously see that 77.8% of their rebounds are defensive rebounds. I don't necessarily think that stat is indicative of the Spurs being a great defensive rebounding team, however, it obviously shows the disparity between the two types of rebounds.

Or maybe i've misunderstood the definition of that stat...and what i've said doesn't matter for shit.

Nope. DefReb% = DefReb / (DefReb + OppOffReb)

That translates into exactly what I said. The available rebounds are our defensive rebounds + the opponents offensive rebounds. And the Spurs really do grab almost 78% of those. Obviously that varies from game to game. And I suspect that they lose a significant number of the games where they don't get their normal percentage of defensive boards.

jag
04-11-2009, 12:42 AM
No. Defensive rebounding percentage is the percentage of available defensive rebounds a team grabs.

cool.


Nope. DefReb% = DefReb / (DefReb + OppOffReb)

That translates into exactly what I said. The available rebounds are our defensive rebounds + the opponents offensive rebounds. And the Spurs really do grab almost 78% of those. Obviously that varies from game to game. And I suspect that they lose a significant number of the games where they don't get their normal percentage of defensive boards.

That makes sense...very interesting stat.

wildbill2u
04-11-2009, 12:47 AM
One other thing might be affecting our offensive rebounds. Pop's strategy has always been to put the center out on a high post or in the case of Bonner out by the arc to take advantage of his 3 point threat. The purpose of this, of course, is to draw defenders away from Tim so they find it hard to double team him. When your center is 23 feet away from the basket it's hard for him to get many offensive rebounds.

kace
04-11-2009, 04:38 PM
really great analysis :tu.

that seems to not generate the interest it deserves IMO though.
if some others adulated members brought the exact same thing, there would be dozens of members claiming it was the greatest post ever on spurstalk :lol

very interesting. thanks.

Ed Helicopter Jones
04-11-2009, 04:58 PM
Nice post, GSH. I like the analysis. I didn't realize TP gets so many fewer calls than some of his fellow PGs.

The Spurs homer in me wants to believe that Tony should get to the line every time he gets in the paint. The realist points to 4 O'Briens sitting in a small market team's headquarters and suddenly I have a tough time buying the conspiracy theory. Hopefully I haven't been unknowingly duped into watching the basketball version of the WWF all these years.

Biggems
04-11-2009, 06:11 PM
Excellent analysis...however, the only stat that counts in the end is wins and losses.

well that #3 is a huge stat, considering how many close games we have been losing in the last 2 months.

If we could get the whistles other teams are getting, we might get about 8-10 more FTs a game and probably 5-7 more points, since we don't shoot FTs as well as other teams. Those extra 5-7 ppg could make a huge impact on our current record.

I just get sick of seeing Parker living in the paint and getting knocked to the ground over and over, but no whistle.....meanwhile guys like Wade, CP3, Pierce, Artest, and even Gasol are getting mad love from the refs. I don't expect Bonner or Mason to shoot lots of FTs, as they live on the perimeter. But there is no excuse for Tony or Tim not to be shooting 15-20 FTs a game between them, since both live in the lane and get hacked and beaten on all game long.

Maybe Parker needs to learn the Helicopter spin......I mean it works for CP3

Brazil
04-11-2009, 07:20 PM
Wow we have a lot of quality threads since few days ! thanks a lot GSH !

Regarding the low TP FTAs I'm not buying the story of the small market.

What would be interesting is to see what is the tendency between the so called small markets to see if San Antonio has similar stats or lower stats, if the answer is San Antonio has worst stat than the other fellas small markets it would be a proof that the system or the players are not built to get FTAs. I don't know how we are compared to Charlotte, the timbs etc...

ploto
04-11-2009, 07:25 PM
Good post until you got to number 3 and whined about not getting calls.

Spur|n|Austin
04-11-2009, 07:27 PM
Thanks for taking the time to do that GSH, learn something new everyday.


Good post until you got to number 3 and whined about not getting calls.

Where in # 3 did he whine?

Mavs<Spurs
04-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Great Analysis. Really liked your work !

Thanks for doing this 1

:toast

:flag:

Brutalis
04-12-2009, 02:44 AM
I agree with LJ that TP is slippery. His moves are pure dirty as it is and flat out expected by us and everyone in the damn building. So his size and ability make it appear to be David vs Goliath. Still, I've seen him tired and still beat opponents and not get a call. Especially late in games. So both theories play some truth to me. Parker does look like a flailing idiot at times trying to get the freaking call.

This is a good thread GSH. You pretty much simplified the system in one of the best ways you can here and nailed the rebounding points which says you know what you're talking about.

As mentioned above, we have lost too many close games and given up a few in my opinion. Those calls no matter how many times it should be would have changed at least a game. However when saying that there are other things at the same time that could have happened against us instead of for us. You can't take apart a whole game over shooting free throws of course. I hate to say it but I'm looking way too far ahead. The Spurs could have an awesome team here soon.

Josepatches_
04-12-2009, 07:31 AM
TP is so quick that he usually had an easy layup without any contact.

And one more thing that you forget
In close games PG like Paul has more FTA because he has the ball.With Peja out Paul is the man to shoot FTs.Here it's Finley or Mason who takes the ball because TP isn't enoguh good from the line

Capt Bringdown
04-12-2009, 09:18 AM
1. The Spurs stats are low because they play at a slower pace than other teams.

Spurs rarely push the ball, save for Tony. It's as if we have an aversion to fast breaks and easy baskets.

In offensive rebounding, however, they are not only dead last in the league, they are a very distant last.

That's a crying shame. A banger who could go hard after offensive rebounds would really change the look of this team.
Uh, er, too bad we blew the Scola deal. Every game I've watched him play he likes to attack the offensive glass.

exstatic
04-12-2009, 11:05 AM
In offensive rebounding, however, they are not only dead last in the league, they are a very distant last.

That's a crying shame. A banger who could go hard after offensive rebounds would really change the look of this team.
Uh, er, too bad we blew the Scola deal. Every game I've watched him play he likes to attack the offensive glass.

You do understand that the Spurs purposely don't go after offensive rebounds, right? It's part of their system. If you crash the O glass and don't get the rebound, you're outnumbered on the break, and your opponent gets an easy runout basket probably 95% of the time. Pop would rather surrender the rebound, and make you face the Spurs half court defense, a much tougher proposition than a fast break opportunity. Did it occur to anyone that this is the reason that Gooden, a rebounder known for his O glass work, has dropped off markedly on his rebounding since he got here? Even adjusted for minutes, he went from 8.2 in CHI to 6.9 here.

The Spurs are all about percentages. They work that half court motion offense to get high percentage shots that they're willing to live with not going in a certain percentage of the time. They work their defense to make you take the lowest percentage shot most of the time, and they are NOT willing to let you have that rebound, being a ferocious defensive rebounding team. Over the course of a game, and more pointedly, a season, those percentages work out in the Spurs favor.

RandomGuy
04-12-2009, 11:23 AM
Excellent analysis...however, the only stat that counts in the end is wins and losses, in the finals

Fixed.

:lobt2:

rascal
04-12-2009, 11:35 AM
I noticed one thing about the rebounding stats that is really cool:
The Spurs only grab 22% of the available offensive boards, which is by far the worst in the league. But they take down 78% of the available defensive rebounds. It's just coincidence that those two add up to exactly 100%. But what it means is that when teams play against the Spurs, they grab (on average) exactly the same, crappy 22% of available offensive boards that the Spurs get all the time.



This would explain lower scoring games with more possessions having to go the lenght of the court. Maybe this is Pops strategy to sacrifice offensive
rebounds for defensive rebounds and make the game a defensive type of game.