have the Duncan-era Spurs ever had as big a ballhog as Gooden?

[itzsoweezee]

i think no, simply b/c Tim wouldn't be having that. For some reason, Drew "black hole" Gooden hasn't been delivered the message yet.

[celldweller]

Fail!

[itzsoweezee]

Fail!

so Gooden isn't a ballhog?

[Spursfan092120]

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

I don't see Gooden as a ballhog at all. That would be like calling Manu or Tony ballhogs. Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. He's a good scorer. He's shooting 48%, and with our injuries, we don't have a lot of scorers off the bench. The guy is playing well...damn. We bitch about not having another scorer...bitch that no one's going to step up with Manu out. We finally get someone to do it, and someone starts a stupid ass thread about him being a ballhog...Shit, what do you want?

[anonoftheinternets]

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

I don't see Gooden as a ballhog at all. That would be like calling Manu or Tony ballhogs. Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. He's a good scorer. He's shooting 48%, and with our injuries, we don't have a lot of scorers off the bench. The guy is playing well...damn. We bitch about not having another scorer...bitch that no one's going to step up with Manu out. We finally get someone to do it, and someone starts a stupid ass thread about him being a ballhog...Shit, what do you want?

well doesnt change the fact that hes a ballhog, but beggars cant be choosers. :toast. For example, he was just double teamed, and he cud hav passed out of it, spurs are built to shoot after receiving passes from double teams, but he wasted time and went thru 2 defenders only to hav the ball knocked away with 2 secs left on the clock. If you watch teh movement as well, his option is pass the ball once he gets it, or get into his move. And whether his move works or not, he will shoot it.

Though Im jus thankful he found his way to this team right now, coz we sure the hell need him.

But doesnt change the fact that hes a ballhog, so no need to blast the OP.

[Spursfan092120]

well doesnt change the fact that hes a ballhog, but beggars cant be choosers. :toast. For example, he was just double teamed, and he cud hav passed out of it, spurs are built to shoot after receiving passes from double teams, but he wasted time and went thru 2 defenders only to hav the ball knocked away with 2 secs left on the clock. If you watch teh movement as well, his option is pass the ball once he gets it, or get into his move. And whether his move works or not, he will shoot it.

Though Im jus thankful he found his way to this team right now, coz we sure the hell need him.

But doesnt change the fact that hes a ballhog, so no need to blast the OP.
Question is..who was the shooter, and was it a better option than Gooden going back up?

[itzsoweezee]

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

I don't see Gooden as a ballhog at all. That would be like calling Manu or Tony ballhogs. Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. He's a good scorer. He's shooting 48%, and with our injuries, we don't have a lot of scorers off the bench. The guy is playing well...damn. We bitch about not having another scorer...bitch that no one's going to step up with Manu out. We finally get someone to do it, and someone starts a stupid ass thread about him being a ballhog...Shit, what do you want?

first, no one's bitching except you. second, you just compared tony and manu to drew gooden. you're obviously a moron.

[SequSpur]

yeah, manu ginobili

[Spursfan092120]

first, no one's bitching except you. second, you just compared tony and manu to drew gooden. you're obviously a moron.
lol..I'm not bitching, unless you're talking about this fail of a thread...what the hell are you talking about? Tony Parker and Manu were the top scoring options on the first unit, just like Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. In that way, they are alike..MORON!

[itzsoweezee]

I guess you want Vaughn shooting it? What a fucking moron.

no

[Spursfan092120]

yeah, manu ginobili
Sequ hatin on Manu again..lol

[itzsoweezee]

lol..I'm not bitching, unless you're talking about this fail of a thread...what the hell are you talking about? Tony Parker and Manu were the top scoring options on the first unit, just like Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. In that way, they are alike..MORON!

tony and manu pass. drew gooden doesn't pass. in that way, the only way they were even compared, they are not alike. Bitch.

[Spursfan092120]

tony and manu pass. drew gooden doesn't pass. in that way, the only way they were even compared, they are not alike. Bitch.
LOL..Drew doesn't pass...nice. He's a rebounder who usually gets the ball 4 to 5 feet from the basket. He's a proven scorer. Tell me who else you want scoring the ball. I was comparing them as scorers, not passers..what the hell thread are you reading? And the only bitch is the one bitching..that would be you..starting a bitch thread about one of the guys on this team that's playing hard. 9 points and 8 rebounds in 11 minutes so far..but yeah...he's horrible...let's cut his ass...idiot

[ElNono]

Black Hole Gooden is keeping the lead for us right now with both his scoring and rebounding...
He's single handedly the only one getting rebounds out there...

[DMX7]

Gooden is playing well. We need a ballhog who can go in and kick ass without being passive which is what too many of the Spurs are.

[SenorSpur]

As much as Gooden is a bit of a ball hog, the same can be said for Mason. The problem I see is that Gooden is adept at sealing his man on the block. He just doesn't always get the ball when he should. On the other hand, he needs to focus more on rebounding and defense. When he shot is off, he needs to pass the ball around more and drive to the basket. Same for Mason, Ginobili and anyone else. No one should continuously keep clanging outside shots when their shot is off.

[ElNono]

Back to Bonner with the three point bricks, silly fouls and no rebounding... Lucky us Udoka is in there to clean up the glass...

[Spursfan092120]

As much as Gooden is a bit of a ball hog, the same can be said for Mason. The problem I see is that Gooden is adept at sealing his man on the block. He just doesn't always get the ball when he should. On the other hand, he needs to focus more on rebounding and defense. When he shot is off, he needs to pass the ball around more and drive to the basket. Same for Mason, Ginobili and anyone else. No one should continuously keep clanging outside shots when their shot is off.
I think Pop tells him to keep shooting though. I think I remember hearing in an interview that Pop once told him that if he misses, to shoot it again, and then if he misses again..to shoot it again.

[SenorSpur]

I think Pop tells him to keep shooting though. I think I remember hearing in an interview that Pop once told him that if he misses, to shoot it again, and then if he misses again..to shoot it again.

Sometimes I wonder if Pop has lost his defensive principles. He's seemingly become so obsessed with offense. Obviously, the object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, but you have to stop the other team sometime too.

[HarlemHeat37]

it's not a coincidence that Gooden hasn't been pulled since he's been here for his ballhogging..clearly it doesn't bother Pop, which isn't surprising at all..

he's our only guy outside of the big 3 that can create a shot for himself..

[Admiral]

yeah, manu ginobili

:lol

SJax > Manu. :toast

[GSH]

You have to hate it when a guy shooting close to 50% takes shots. Especially when he gets to the line about 3.5 times as often (per minute) as Mason, and nearly 6 times as often as Finley. And of the shots he's taken, probably a third have been tips and put-backs when he was cleaning up behind other people under the rim.

I mean, he really is screwing us, isn't he?

[Spursfan092120]

Sometimes I wonder if Pop has lost his defensive principles. He's seemingly become so obsessed with offense. Obviously, the object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, but you have to stop the other team sometime too.
Yeah...but I will say Drew is looking a LOT better on defense this year than he has in the past..

[DAF86]

Sequ hatin on Manu again..lol

He doesn't mean it. If Manu is a ballhog, what's left for Parker? :stirpot:

[Creation88]

i was just about to come on here and ask why the fuck some of you people DON'T want Gooden back next year.

in 10 minutes he has 10 boards and 11 points. some of you people are morons. the guy can play.

[Manufan909]

You have to hate it when a guy shooting close to 50% takes shots. Especially when he gets to the line about 3.5 times as often (per minute) as Mason, and nearly 6 times as often as Finley. And of the shots he's taken, probably a third have been tips and put-backs when he was cleaning up behind other people under the rim.

I mean, he really is screwing us, isn't he?

Nothing left to say, kori should lock the thread.

[Spursfan092120]

i was just about to come on here and ask why the fuck some of you people DON'T want Gooden back next year.

in 10 minutes he has 10 boards and 11 points. some of you people are morons. the guy can play.
:tu :tu

[Spursfan092120]

Nothing left to say, kori should lock the thread.
http://www.escsecurity.com.au/images/lock.jpg

[Indazone]

Cool now the Spurs have their version of our Artest.

[Baseline]

You'd rather him pass the ball to Udoka?

Udoka is a bigger ballhog than Gooden. Udoka shoots less than 40% from the field. Know what that means? He shouldn't be shooting, that's what.

With Manu out, Gooden needs to score. Period.

[sabar]

As good as he is, yes, he is a ball hog. And yes, it will come back and bite us sooner or later.

[DAF86]

Cool now the Spurs have their version of our Artest.

The difference is that Gooden is a somewhat decent offensive player.

[Russ]

Think of every shot Gooden makes in this game as one more minute Duncan can sit.

[GSH]

This has to be about the silliest fucking discussion ever. As long as the guy keeps shooting around 50%, and gets to the line nearly as often as Duncan on a per-36 basis, I'd let him shoot it 30 times per night.

Those trips to the line are something this team has needed desperately, too. Every one of those whistles is one that they can't use on Duncan. They help get the other teams into the penalty. Getting to the line is a way to crawl back into a game when you're struggling, and it can give you an opportunity to win a game late in the 4th, when you're behind.

Exactly what the fuck do you guys want? A guy who can put points on the board without taking shots? Or maybe he should just defer to one of the guys we have shooting 70% from the floor?

[Spursfan092120]

This has to be about the silliest fucking discussion ever. As long as the guy keeps shooting around 50%, and gets to the line nearly as often as Duncan on a per-36 basis, I'd let him shoot it 30 times per night.

Those trips to the line are something this team has needed desperately, too. Every one of those whistles is one that they can't use on Duncan. They help get the other teams into the penalty. Getting to the line is a way to crawl back into a game when you're struggling, and it can give you an opportunity to win a game late in the 4th, when you're behind.

Exactly what the fuck do you guys want? A guy who can put points on the board without taking shots? Or maybe he should just defer to one of the guys we have shooting 70% from the floor?
agreed...that's why I jumped on the OP right away..stupid thread.

[DAF86]

This has to be about the silliest fucking discussion ever. As long as the guy keeps shooting around 50%, and gets to the line nearly as often as Duncan on a per-36 basis, I'd let him shoot it 30 times per night.

Those trips to the line are something this team has needed desperately, too. Every one of those whistles is one that they can't use on Duncan. They help get the other teams into the penalty. Getting to the line is a way to crawl back into a game when you're struggling, and it can give you an opportunity to win a game late in the 4th, when you're behind.

Exactly what the fuck do you guys want? A guy who can put points on the board without taking shots? Or maybe he should just defer to one of the guys we have shooting 70% from the floor?

Pass it to Mason you ballhog

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290413009

[SouthTexasRancher]

i think no, simply b/c Tim wouldn't be having that. For some reason, Drew "black hole" Gooden hasn't been delivered the message yet.


You know you'd be better off sticking with commenting on the local Tiddley Winks matches because when it comes to analysis of basketball players you stink!

I guess you think that points will just drop down out of the clouds now that Manu is out. Yes sir, you are a real brainiac! :frying:

[Spursfan092120]

20 pts. and 15 reb. with still 7:00 to go in the game..can we PLEASE cut this guy? lol...

[Russ]

This has to be about the silliest fucking discussion ever. As long as the guy keeps shooting around 50%, and gets to the line nearly as often as Duncan on a per-36 basis, I'd let him shoot it 30 times per night.

Those trips to the line are something this team has needed desperately, too. Every one of those whistles is one that they can't use on Duncan. They help get the other teams into the penalty. Getting to the line is a way to crawl back into a game when you're struggling, and it can give you an opportunity to win a game late in the 4th, when you're behind.

Exactly what the fuck do you guys want? A guy who can put points on the board without taking shots? Or maybe he should just defer to one of the guys we have shooting 70% from the floor?


Spurs fans are so used to watching offensively challenged players, anyone who isn't must be a troublemaker. :)

[Spursfan092120]

Spurs fans are so used to watching offensively challenged players, anyone who isn't must be a troublemaker. :)
LMAO..that and dunkers...anyone with hops is breaking the rules...lol

[spursnatic]

Hey, as long as he is hitting his shots and we are getting W's..Ballhog all you want Gooden?...And to me seeing this game, it doesn't really seem as if he is ballhogging? Just everytime he gets it he is scoring!!!Good job tonight Drew!!!!

[Solid D]

Bench scoring and rebounding is what the Spurs sorely need. Gooden brings that.

Malik Rose was called the "black hole" by his teammates but he still helped the Spurs win a couple of championships coming off the bench at the 4 and 5 spots.

[SouthTexasRancher]

i think no, simply b/c Tim wouldn't be having that. For some reason, Drew "black hole" Gooden hasn't been delivered the message yet.

Yeah lets release Gooden after the terrible performance he had again tonight. We just can't keep a new pickup late in the season who can give us 20 points and 15 rebounds! Off with his head!

Like I said, itzsoweezee, stick to Tiddley Winks because you don't know crap'ola about basketball.

[Juanobili]

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

i don't see gooden as a ballhog at all. That would be like calling manu or tony ballhogs. Drew gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. He's a good scorer. He's shooting 48%, and with our injuries, we don't have a lot of scorers off the bench. The guy is playing well...damn. We bitch about not having another scorer...bitch that no one's going to step up with manu out. We finally get someone to do it, and someone starts a stupid ass thread about him being a ballhog...shit, what do you want?

+1

[anonoftheinternets]

This has to be about the silliest fucking discussion ever. As long as the guy keeps shooting around 50%, and gets to the line nearly as often as Duncan on a per-36 basis, I'd let him shoot it 30 times per night.

Those trips to the line are something this team has needed desperately, too. Every one of those whistles is one that they can't use on Duncan. They help get the other teams into the penalty. Getting to the line is a way to crawl back into a game when you're struggling, and it can give you an opportunity to win a game late in the 4th, when you're behind.

Exactly what the fuck do you guys want? A guy who can put points on the board without taking shots? Or maybe he should just defer to one of the guys we have shooting 70% from the floor?


How abt taking the blinders off this guy is an nba starting power forwrd who played AGAINST duncan, of course playin in the second unit with the other spurs (udoka, vaughn blah blah) hes going to look like a superstar out there and he shud be taking shots. That was not the point, point is "is he a black hole or not" std answer from most ppl in the thread: LOLOLOL HE SHOOTS 50% ... :rolleyes no one is denying he shud keep shooting, but he is a black hole unless uve never seen him on other teams before. And also forget about him coming back to play second fiddle, im sure he feels he can be a starter elsewhere, and frankly i thnk so too.


also spurs team is going to look a lot better than this next year, we may not want a second post guy who wants teh ball and wants to shoot, we need role players to fit around our stars. And if you think Gooden can be that star, either u hav not looked at the salary cap, or are verry verrry optimistic.

so for this year :toast we need a ball hog who shoots the ball and creates offense for the second unit. But doesnt change the fact aht hes a ball hog. Which is waht the OP apparently was pointing out. :flag:

[Thomas82]

Yeah...but I will say Drew is looking a LOT better on defense this year than he has in the past..

That's what playing for the Spurs will do for you.

[Chris]

anonoftheinternets = itsoweezee?

[BOHOLANO#21]

anonoftheinternets = itsoweezee?
yup. both are idiots.:lol

[anonoftheinternets]

yup. both are idiots.:lol

:rolleyes good points, i totally see how u used "science" to prove your point.

(i can already see ur reply: LOLOLOL WHO NEEDS SCINCE U ARE AN IDIOT ... LOLOLOL drool ....)

[GSH]

but he is a black hole unless uve never seen him on other teams before.




So Gooden was a ball hog when he played for other teams, too, huh? Over his career, he has averaged 13 FGA per 36 minutes. Does that make him a career ball hog? Let's see...

-Roger Mason has averaged 12 FGA per 36 minutes with the Spurs, and about the same for his career.
-Hedo Turkoglu put up 11.2 FGA per 36 when he played here, and 12.86 for his career.
-During the time Sean Marks was with the Spurs, he averaged 12.7 FGA per 36 minutes.
-His first year with the Spurs, Rasho averaged almost 10 FGA per 36 minutes, and people complained that he deferred to Tim too much, and needed to shoot more.
-Devin Brown put up 11.7 FGA per 36 when he was with the Spurs.
-Since Finley has been with the Spurs, he's averaged 12 FGA per 36 minutes. Even allowing for the fact that a lot of his shots are 3's, his effective FG% with the Spurs has been about the same as Gooden's career average.
-When Sean Marks was with the Spurs, he averaged 12.79 FGA per 36.

Damn, it looks like nearly everybody who plays for the Spurs is a ball hog, except for Rasho who didn't shoot enough. Or maybe it's just that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Over his career, Gooden has shot the ball just about as often as you would expect from a guy who was #4 in the draft, scores well inside, and gets a bunch of trips to the line. Would you rather have Gooden shooting 13 times, or Rasho shooting 10?

Now... maybe you just don't care that Gooden gets to the line a lot more than any of those other guys. Or maybe you don't value all the rebounds he gets. Maybe you really think that he is a worse defender than Finley, or Mason, or Hedo. Or maybe you just had a thing for Sean Marks' curls. But since you don't want to admit to any of those things publicly, you decided to call him a ball hog? Whatever your reason, you're wrong.

[SenorSpur]

I didn't realize Gooden's footwork was so good around the basket. I always pictured him as sort of a poor-man's Carlos Boozer. However, that's a big understatement. He's at least on par with Boozer. His production is better than all the other backup bigmen combined. The Spurs would be big fools not to resign him for next year.

[SenorSpur]

Now... maybe you just don't care that Gooden gets to the line a lot more than any of those other guys. Or maybe you don't value all the rebounds he gets. Maybe you really think that he is a worse defender than Finley, or Mason, or Hedo. Or maybe you just had a thing for Sean Marks' curls. But since you don't want to admit to any of those things publicly, you decided to call him a ball hog? Whatever your reason, you're wrong.

Don't forget Gooden shoots somewhere around 85% from the FT line, too.

[Mugen]

have the duncan-era spurs ever had a post scoring big like gooden?

[rayray2k8]

Ballhog?
You want Udoka taking shots instead?
How about Bonner for another brick???
Jesus :rolleyes

[HarlemHeat37]

that's the thing that annoys me..who do people want taking shots instead of Gooden?..

[Spur|n|Austin]

Keep shooting the ball Gooden!

[Brutalis]

Hilarious. We finally get some offensive minded player that can score the ball in ways we need yet I see this thread on Spurstalk. The shock has dulled long before now in reality.

[Jace]

Someone has to pick up the scoring load, good on Gooden for doing it

[ezau]

If we want a fighting chance in the playoffs, he needs to score as much as he can and that means he needs to shoot the fucking ball. Without Manu, who else is going to do it? Oberto, Bonner, and Thomas? Gooden is the best post-up player we've ever had outside of the Duncan. We should just be happy that he's contributing and giving us solid numbers

[onarollbaby]

As long as Drew is doing what the team needs him to do, its all fine with me. What more can you ask for from the guy 20 pts. 15 rebs, when was the last time the Spurs have that contributor in the 4 or 5 position other than Tim Duncan

[Yuixafun]

For now it's OK, but for certain he better know where to move the ball come playoff times. If he's 1 dimensional that will get shut down real quick.

Just mentioning he's a 'ball hog' isn't grounds for such widespread rebuke, you guys get ruffled at the silliest things. The reason people are timid to voice an opinion is because a bunch of donkeys are ready with the dung and insults.

Anyway, his production in this game against the Warriors... does not change the fact that when he touches the ball it's almost guaranteed he's shooting it, open man be damned. Naturally this is a product of his limited knowledge of the offense, so in the spirit of keeping it simple.. Shoot the ball Gooden!

But sometimes it would be better for him to kick it out, especially if he's being smothered, to keep the defense honest and to get the other fellas on the 2nd unit involved and ready to shoot. We're going to need contributions from everyone, so it would behoove the Spurs in general to play team ball and not try to force too many shots.

Trust your teammates right. If you're in a groove though, you are entitled to a few questionable offensive possessions. Overall I'm pleased with what Gooden has done.

[GSH]

For now it's OK, but for certain he better know where to move the ball come playoff times. If he's 1 dimensional that will get shut down real quick.

Just mentioning he's a 'ball hog' isn't grounds for such widespread rebuke, you guys get ruffled at the silliest things. The reason people are timid to voice an opinion is because a bunch of donkeys are ready with the dung and insults.

Anyway, his production in this game against the Warriors... does not change the fact that when he touches the ball it's almost guaranteed he's shooting it, open man be damned. Naturally this is a product of his limited knowledge of the offense, so in the spirit of keeping it simple.. Shoot the ball Gooden!

But sometimes it would be better for him to kick it out, especially if he's being smothered, to keep the defense honest and to get the other fellas on the 2nd unit involved and ready to shoot. We're going to need contributions from everyone, so it would behoove the Spurs in general to play team ball and not try to force too many shots.

Trust your teammates right. If you're in a groove though, you are entitled to a few questionable offensive possessions. Overall I'm pleased with what Gooden has done.


Words have meaning. "Ball hog" means someone who shoots too much, to the detriment of the team. When you say something that can't be backed up by facts, you should probably expect a rebuke. It's hard to argue that Gooden is a ball hog, based on the number or frequency of shots he is taking. And, given his FG%, it's hard to make a case that those shots should be going somewhere else. With Tim hobbled, the Spurs were in desperate need of a low post presence. Gooden is providing that. Why look for something to bitch about?

If he has a mis-match, close to the basket, he should damned well be taking the shot and, yes, "open man be damned". Especially when that open man is Michael Finley, on a night when he is 0-for-everything. Your point that a one-dimensional player will get picked off against playoff opponents is accurate enough, but that statement doesn't mean that Gooden is a ball hog. And he's been around the league long enough for the scouts to have figured out how to shut him down, if that could be done easily.

I agree that passing out of the double team is a good skill, and that he will improve that as he gets more time in with the team. But even when he went 2-9 against Sacramento last game, he shot 9 FT's in 22 minutes. That's a pace of almost 15 per 36 minutes! That will absolutely wear a team out. If a guy can do that, you need him shooting the ball - even on nights when he goes 2-9 from the floor.

He's new to the team and the system. And there is always room for improvement, whether it's defensive rotations or passing out of a double team. But I'm sorry... he hasn't been a ball hog. Here or anywhere else.

[bresilhac]

I cannot believe someone began this thread. What would people want, for Drew not to get 20 and 15 off the bench? Gooden's been consistently very effective from the 4/5 position during his short tenure with the Spurs and, if San Antonio has any chance of beating anybody in the playoffs they should hope that Gooden achieves 20 and 15 in every playoff game. He is a legitimate low post scoring threat that I don't believe the Spurs have ever had during the reign of Tim not including David. The Spurs are extremely fortunate to have acquired him.

[greyforest]

gooden is pretty goddamn good

[Muser]

Lmfao, he had a line of 20/15 on 7/12 from the field and 6-8 from the line and people are complaining?

[ceds]

So Gooden was a ball hog when he played for other teams, too, huh? Over his career, he has averaged 13 FGA per 36 minutes. Does that make him a career ball hog? Let's see...

-Roger Mason has averaged 12 FGA per 36 minutes with the Spurs, and about the same for his career.
-Hedo Turkoglu put up 11.2 FGA per 36 when he played here, and 12.86 for his career.
-During the time Sean Marks was with the Spurs, he averaged 12.7 FGA per 36 minutes.
-His first year with the Spurs, Rasho averaged almost 10 FGA per 36 minutes, and people complained that he deferred to Tim too much, and needed to shoot more.
-Devin Brown put up 11.7 FGA per 36 when he was with the Spurs.
-Since Finley has been with the Spurs, he's averaged 12 FGA per 36 minutes. Even allowing for the fact that a lot of his shots are 3's, his effective FG% with the Spurs has been about the same as Gooden's career average.
-When Sean Marks was with the Spurs, he averaged 12.79 FGA per 36.

Damn, it looks like nearly everybody who plays for the Spurs is a ball hog, except for Rasho who didn't shoot enough. Or maybe it's just that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Over his career, Gooden has shot the ball just about as often as you would expect from a guy who was #4 in the draft, scores well inside, and gets a bunch of trips to the line. Would you rather have Gooden shooting 13 times, or Rasho shooting 10?

Now... maybe you just don't care that Gooden gets to the line a lot more than any of those other guys. Or maybe you don't value all the rebounds he gets. Maybe you really think that he is a worse defender than Finley, or Mason, or Hedo. Or maybe you just had a thing for Sean Marks' curls. But since you don't want to admit to any of those things publicly, you decided to call him a ball hog? Whatever your reason, you're wrong.

Its clear that you havent watched much of him

The numbers are nice and we need his production ...but make no mistake, he disrupts the general flow of the offense and breaks too many plays.

[HarlemHeat37]

he really doesn't break the flow..shit, what flow?! there is no flow of the offense in the 2nd unit without Manu..Gooden IS the flow..

I have NOT seen Gooden hog the ball and disrupt the offense when Parker and/or Duncan are on the floor..so it really isn't a concern..

when it comes to the 2nd unit, he IS the offense..I can give a shit about Ime Udoka getting shots..

I haven't seen ANYBODY lose their offense because of Gooden..at least not the reliable parts of our team..

Kurt Thomas is still getting his usual amount of open mid-range Js, which he makes consistently..Bowen is still getting his 1 or 2 open Js on the baseline, which he makes consistently..Ime still takes more shots than he can actually make..Finley, Mason, and Bonner are still taking a good amount of open 3s..

who is losing out on this?..

if Gooden doesn't have the ball in his hands, our 2nd unit won't get a good shot..the defense won't respect anybody else when they have the ball in their hands, because none of them are a threat to make a play..

[anakha]

Lmfao, he had a line of 20/15 on 7/12 from the field and 6-8 from the line and people are complaining?

Eh, get used to it.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88536

[greyforest]

disrupts the general flow of the offense and breaks too many plays.

by creating open looks and taking quality shots?

[Jose Ole]

This thread is ridiculously stupid... Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

[spurspokesman]

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

I don't see Gooden as a ballhog at all. That would be like calling Manu or Tony ballhogs. Drew Gooden is the first scoring option on the second unit. He's a good scorer. He's shooting 48%, and with our injuries, we don't have a lot of scorers off the bench. The guy is playing well...damn. We bitch about not having another scorer...bitch that no one's going to step up with Manu out. We finally get someone to do it, and someone starts a stupid ass thread about him being a ballhog...Shit, what do you want?
Exactly. Im glad to have somebody in the second unit that knows how to put the ball in the basketball

[ElNono]

The numbers are nice and we need his production ...but make no mistake, he disrupts the general flow of the offense and breaks too many plays.

The second unit 'offensive flow' before Gooden got here could be resumed in a single play: Roger Mason playing pick n roll with Kurt. If the big doesn't hedges, Rogers gets the money jumper. If the big does hedges, then Kurt has a jumper. If the defense rotates to Kurt, then you end up with either Kurt passing back to Roger and starting again, or passing to the corner to whoever rotated to cover him (Udoka/Bowen mostly). Notice how none of the scenarios involve anything but taking a jumpshot that we basically can't get an offensive rebound on (because Thomas, our best rebounder, is implicitly outside of the paint), doesn't involve taking a high percentage shot (no points in the paint, basically), and doesn't involve getting anybody to the line. It's no surprise the Spurs have one of the lowest free throws attempted rating among all teams.
With Gooden out there we have a more balanced and Spurs-like inside-out offense. He can post up and score or draw a foul. He can pass out of the post. He can also grab offensive boards if we decide to go for a jumper. And if he's dominating in the post (like he did in a few games recently), it spaces the floor even better for our shooters. Now, if you expect him to do all these things with the same efficiency as, say, Tim Duncan, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. But there's no denying that he adds a new dimension to our second unit, and that his 'average' outing is well above whatever else our other bigs could provide.

He's definitely an improvement. Is he the 'saviour'? No. Does he makes our second unit better? Absolutely.

[Thomas82]

Lmfao, he had a line of 20/15 on 7/12 from the field and 6-8 from the line and people are complaining?

I don't understand that either.

[z0sa]

I don't understand that either.

It's impossible to understand what goes on in the mind of the mentally challenged.

[arial]

Gooden is putting points on the board Manu would have put up and nailing some nice shots. If you have the shot... take it or else Pop will bench you. Ask Bonner all about that. I don't see Gooden as a ballhog at all, he's got confidence going to the rim and is nailing a lot of his shots and putting big points on the score board and you're complaining?

[Kori Ellis]

In general, Gooden always been a black hole/ballhhog/whatever term you want to use. He breaks plays, calls for the ball constantly and doesn't play within the offense.

HOWEVER, with Manu out and the Spurs in desperate need of another scorer, this isn't a horrible thing. If he tones down his ballhogging ways of the past and realizes that if he passes, he's going to get the ball back in the Spurs system, then he's going to be a huge asset. So far, he's been getting acclimated rather quickly and has started to get better about being a black hole already.

Overall, you can't complain about the guy. He's exactly what the Spurs need right now. However in the future, I can't imagine him playing on the floor with Manu/Tim/Tony unless he changes his style of play dramatically. He just needs the ball too much to be effective with three other scorers on the floor. So I'm not sure if the Spurs see him as a fit for next year, or if he's just their rent-a-player for the season.

[koriwhat]

i saw him up close in two games and yes he's a ballhog! a huge ballhog but i don't mind that so much as i mind him taking ill-advised shots when under pressure.

shoot as much as you want but dont try to stress shit! if you're pressured then kick the ball out but if youre not then shoot it and if you miss oh well. just dont shoot under such pressure when you know damn well you aint got a shot to take.

[dougp]

In general, Gooden always been a black hole/ballhhog/whatever term you want to use. He breaks plays, calls for the ball constantly and doesn't play within the offense.

HOWEVER, with Manu out and the Spurs in desperate need of another scorer, this isn't a horrible thing. If he tones down his ballhogging ways of the past and realizes that if he passes, he's going to get the ball back in the Spurs system, then he's going to be a huge asset. So far, he's been getting acclimated rather quickly and has started to get better about being a black hole already.

Overall, you can't complain about the guy. He's exactly what the Spurs need right now. However in the future, I can't imagine him playing on the floor with Manu/Tim/Tony unless he changes his style of play dramatically. He just needs the ball too much to be effective with three other scorers on the floor. So I'm not sure if the Spurs see him as a fit for next year, or if he's just their rent-a-player for the season.

They were running quite a few isolation plays for him yesterday. I still don't understand how he disrupts the offense though, no more than Ime or Bruce.

[mingus]

Gooden's a good offensive player, but does anyone else get the feeling he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing on offense or defense as far as playign wthin the sytem? He's usually either late or just on time, but hardly ever ready, on his rotations for whatever ever reason.

Example (and maybe I'm wrong about this one, maybe it was a designed this way): yesterday on offense, he crowded TD as Duncan was about to do a hook shot by bringing his man towards Duncan. Common sense tells you to clear out so Duncan has room. The play I'm talking about worked out in our favor actually (it was in the second quarter I believe). Duncan had an and 1 because Gooden's man (I think randolph) tried going for the block and got his arm instead.

Against smart defenders who don't fall for every fake and try to make a monster blocks and foul instead, he would have fucked up that play. And I;ve seen shit like this on quite a bit from him. Too much.

He's got to get his shit together when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. In the playoffs, I doubt he'll be given the ball down the stretch late in games. It's going to go to either TD or TP, and rightfully so. His off the ball play and defense (specially rotations) are key, and if we have any chance to go deep, he'll have to succeed in that area. His offense will probably keep us in most games (or at least I hope it will), without the other stuff, we'll fall short.

[ElNono]

Gooden's a good offensive player, but does anyone else get the feeling he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing on offense or defense as far as playign wthin the sytem? He's usually either late or just on time, but hardly ever ready, on his rotations for whatever ever reason.

Example (and maybe I'm wrong about this one, maybe it was a designed this way): yesterday on offense, he crowded TD as Duncan was about to do a hook shot by bringing his man towards Duncan. Common sense tells you to clear out so Duncan has room. The play I'm talking about worked out in our favor actually (it was in the second quarter I believe). Duncan had an and 1 because Gooden's man (I think randolph) tried going for the block and got his arm instead.

Against smart defenders who don't fall for every fake and try to make a monster blocks and foul instead, he would have fucked up that play. And I;ve seen shit like this on quite a bit from him. Too much.

He's got to get his shit together when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. In the playoffs, I doubt he'll be given the ball down the stretch late in games. It's going to go to either TD or TP, and rightfully so. His off the ball play and defense (specially rotations) are key, and if we have any chance to go deep, he'll have to succeed in that area. His offense will probably keep us in most games (or at least I hope it will), without the other stuff, we'll fall short.

There are many times when he looks out of it when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

I agree he feels out of the system. But to be honest, he's the only guy that didn't have at least one full training camp with the team. So I'll reserve judgement on his recklessness until next season. If he's still out of the system, then sure, we definitely could have something to gripe about.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Sometimes I wonder if Pop has lost his defensive principles. He's seemingly become so obsessed with offense. Obviously, the object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, but you have to stop the other team sometime too.

The game has changed. It's now much more guard oriented, much more offensive oriented, and you win games with defense complementing the offense and the offense as the lead weapon.

This is because (a) the rules and more importantly their interpretation changed, (b) players coming into the league are now more offensively skilled, stronger, and bigger, and (c) these things just have a way of going in cycles.

The main offensive play you see these days is the point or two guard working off a high screen and driving and shooting or dishing. There's really not much a single defender can do. The screener's man can hedge or blitz (the Spurs do this well), but the on-ball defender can't make much contact without a foul being called (especially for the "superstars", of which Tony apparently isn't one somehow... maybe because he's not American?). This is how Paul, Parker, Wade, and Williams all work it.

The post-up to the four/five is now secondary, and is often designed to draw a double-team so the 4/5 can pass out of it to the open three point shooter (or at least to the perimiter where it can be quickly swung to the other side).

Give Popovich some credit for changing with the times.

[Manufan909]

In general, Gooden always been a black hole/ballhhog/whatever term you want to use. He breaks plays, calls for the ball constantly and doesn't play within the offense.

HOWEVER, with Manu out and the Spurs in desperate need of another scorer, this isn't a horrible thing. If he tones down his ballhogging ways of the past and realizes that if he passes, he's going to get the ball back in the Spurs system, then he's going to be a huge asset. So far, he's been getting acclimated rather quickly and has started to get better about being a black hole already.

Overall, you can't complain about the guy. He's exactly what the Spurs need right now. However in the future, I can't imagine him playing on the floor with Manu/Tim/Tony unless he changes his style of play dramatically. He just needs the ball too much to be effective with three other scorers on the floor. So I'm not sure if the Spurs see him as a fit for next year, or if he's just their rent-a-player for the season.

I would think the obvious potential Manu and Gooden showed when they played together would make it an easy choice. Look how effective Gooden is with Mase/Bowen/Ime/KT(no one can create in any way, shape, or form), he'd be that much better partially feeding of Manu.

If having a ballhog is the price the Spurs have to pay for a 2nd unit inside presence who will draw fouls, and craploads of them, and they don't pay it, then I''m guessing they are more high on Ian then they should be. Fuck the 2010 plan Pop, no one looks at SA and sees $$$$$.:bang

[fraga]

Gooden is a starter on most teams...this is TRULY one of the worst threads in a while...sorry...but to the original poster...

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[HarlemHeat37]

The game has changed. It's now much more guard oriented, much more offensive oriented, and you win games with defense complementing the offense and the offense as the lead weapon.

This is because (a) the rules and more importantly their interpretation changed, (b) players coming into the league are now more offensively skilled, stronger, and bigger, and (c) these things just have a way of going in cycles.

The main offensive play you see these days is the point or two guard working off a high screen and driving and shooting or dishing. There's really not much a single defender can do. The screener's man can hedge or blitz (the Spurs do this well), but the on-ball defender can't make much contact without a foul being called (especially for the "superstars", of which Tony apparently isn't one somehow... maybe because he's not American?). This is how Paul, Parker, Wade, and Williams all work it.

The post-up to the four/five is now secondary, and is often designed to draw a double-team so the 4/5 can pass out of it to the open three point shooter (or at least to the perimiter where it can be quickly swung to the other side).

Give Popovich some credit for changing with the times.

while you're right, the NBA has been like that since 2004-2005, after they changed the rules..we've won 2 titles since then..so I don't think it's necessarily Pop changing with the times..I think it's simply a matter of no longer having the weapons to play lock down D, so Pop trying to mix in a little more offense..

the NBA has always been about mixing your offense and defense..you can never win with just one..

[my2sons]

terry cummings, dominique wilkens...george gervin...whats your point