Rightwing extremists: Danger Danger

[DarrinS]

WTF is this?


http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94803

http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

Screw dealing with a possibly nuclear Pakistan falling to Islamofascists, we've got to protect ourselves from radical right-wingers.

[George Gervin's Afro]

We better keep an eye for people who think Obama is going to take away their guns.. they may shoot 3 policemen..oh wait..:rolleyes

[balli]

Anecdotally, given the level of insane meltdowns in this forum and elsewhere, I'm far more worried about republicans trying to destroy America than I am about wahhabi jihadist's trying to do so.

[DarrinS]

We better keep an eye for people who think Obama is going to take away their guns.. they may shoot 3 policemen..oh wait..:rolleyes


Was that guy in Oakland that shot four cops a conservative?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Was that guy in Oakland that shot four cops a conservative?

he was right wing extremist who was convinced Obama was going to take away his guns.. hence why we should be keeping an eye on these people..

[ChumpDumper]

Why would board Republicans be angry about someone noticing their self-fulfilling prophecy?

[jman3000]

he was right wing extremist who was convinced Obama was going to take away his guns.. hence why we should be keeping an eye on these people..

the dude in oakland was a black dude.. it was the guy in.. pittsburgh? who was the crazy guy thinking obama was gonna take his guns away.

difference is, one guy was motivated by political means.

the other was just some worthless thug with a gun.

[Marcus Bryant]

Because there could never possibly be any left wing "extremists." *guffaw*

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i guess people are colorblind to the word "extremist"

[DarrinS]

the dude in oakland was a black dude.. it was the guy in.. pittsburgh? who was the crazy guy thinking obama was gonna take his guns away.

difference is, one guy was motivated by political means.

the other was just some worthless thug with a gun.



Crazy is crazy, regardless of political ideology.

[ChumpDumper]

i guess people are colorblind to the word "extremist"
Huh?

[DarrinS]

Huh?


A crazy nutjob is a crazy nutjob, regardless who he/she voted for. No?



EDIT> My bad. You weren't talking to me.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

A crazy nutjob is a crazy nutjob, regardless who he/she voted for. No?



EDIT> My bad. You weren't talking to me.:tu
i was talking to anyone intelligent that doesn't need to be spoonfed.

[Winehole23]

...
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://911review.com/precedent/decade/imgs/murrah_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://911review.com/precedent/decade/okc.html&usg=__SSP9TPVfN_OMMm9xUI18pZ7BHKk=&h=335&w=432&sz=41&hl=en&start=21&um=1&tbnid=CvB8VXjq5UDqDM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOKC%2Bbombing%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%2 6client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1)

[ChumpDumper]

:tu
i was talking to anyone intelligent that doesn't need to be spoonfed.Please, explain yourself if you are able.

[Crookshanks]

So according to DHS, Gov. Rick Perry is now considered more dangerous than Muslim extremists? You can't make this stuff up - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so scary.

Anybody think this is just a "coincidence" that this report comes out right before the Tax Day Tea Parties?

Another day - another reason to despise the Obama administration.

[ChumpDumper]

Poor, oppressed Rick Perry.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Please, explain yourself if you are able.
sorry. spoonfed hour has come and gone. get with darrin

[ChumpDumper]

Because there could never possibly be any left wing "extremists." *guffaw*Those DHS reports came out during the Bush years. Political climate.

[Winehole23]

i guess people are [not] colorblind to the word "extremist"Corrected?

[ChumpDumper]

sorry. spoonfed hour has come and gone. get with darrinSo you are unable to explain yourself. No problem. I would probably try to avoid it too had I said something similar.

[jman3000]

The "left wing" version of this came out in February.

And it's not attacking conservatives... it's talking about radical groups like the kkk, neo-nazis etc etc... How it's a perfect storm (economy, black president, immigration issues) to get recruitment up. Is there denying that?

It has nothing to do with these fucking tea parties. that's giving too much credit to them.

[FaithInOne]

More and more Americans are starting to sound like Loyalists from the 1700's.

I love how they group being passionate about pro-life and all that other meaningless social stuff in with Neo-Nazis and all of those losers. :rollin

Those gosh darn rebel rousers. Talking about small government power. How dare them.


You can take my freedom, but you will never take my hair mouuuuuusssseeeee.

[MannyIsGod]

Huh?

He was just writing you a note to his self.

[ChumpDumper]

It's "rabble."

[FaithInOne]

ahh Thank you sir.

[ElNono]

FWIW, this report was ordered by the Bush Administration...

[Winehole23]

Process. Right over their heads. Context interferes with off the rack generalizations.

[hope4dopes]

The "left wing" version of this came out in February.

And it's not attacking conservatives... it's talking about radical groups like the kkk, neo-nazis etc etc... How it's a perfect storm (economy, black president, immigration issues) to get recruitment up. Is there denying that?

It has nothing to do with these fucking tea parties. that's giving too much credit to them.

[hope4dopes]

Your simply lying. the left wing edition actually named orginizations who's own web sites posted thir intent. this report isn't naming any specific orginisations it's saying anyone who holds political opinions other than the democratic party is an extremists.These people are the real deal they're like mussolini, or chavez.

[hope4dopes]

So according to DHS, Gov. Rick Perry is now considered more dangerous than Muslim extremists? You can't make this stuff up - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so scary.

Anybody think this is just a "coincidence" that this report comes out right before the Tax Day Tea Parties?

Another day - another reason to despise the Obama administration.

[hope4dopes]

It's no coincidence, it's a threat directed at the people, that's why it's more important than ever to get out in the streets and get active everyday do something to end this administration.

[Winehole23]

It's no coincidence, it's a threat directed at the people, that's why it's more important than ever to get out in the streets and get active everyday do something to end this administration.Radical, no?

Expect to stand around and talk with all the minicon radicals at the Tea Party. :lol

[Winehole23]

These people are the real deal they're like mussolini, or chavez.Are you leading a counter-revolutionary cadre (http://dictionary.die.net/cadre), micca?

[hope4dopes]

Are you leading a counter-revolutionary cadre (http://dictionary.die.net/cadre), micca?

Hey precious, no just one of the many many little fishes.

[Winehole23]

What makes you think ST posters will make good cannon fodder?


Were you trolling for recruits, or just spouting off?

[hope4dopes]

Radical, no?

Expect to stand around and talk with all the minicon radicals at the Tea Party. :lol No I expect to organize.

[Winehole23]

Hey precious, no just one of the many many little fishes.You can quit calling me precious anytime you like.

Step back, ese.

[hope4dopes]

What makes you think ST posters will make good cannon fodder?


Were you trolling for recruits, or just spouting off?
Although I notice you don't seem to see past the end of your nose ..you may have noticed not everyone in the universes shares you views, those of us who don't need to speak out and organize with each other.

[hope4dopes]

You can quit calling me precious anytime you like.

Step back, ese. ese? another blast from the past precious.

[Winehole23]

Although I notice you don't seem to see past the end of your nose ..you may have noticed not everyone in the universes shares you views, those of us who don't need to speak out and organize with each other.With you to remind me everyday how could I ever forget it? :lol

[Winehole23]

No I expect to organize.
http://epipoca.uol.com.br/images/galeria/13074_2.jpg
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://epipoca.uol.com.br/images/galeria/13074_6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://epipoca.uol.com.br/filmes_galeria.php%3Fidf%3D13074&usg=__T5-kfAFiA7jre_JpASTKnv6ETbE=&h=788&w=1000&sz=110&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=6p5M_Kd-N5g3hM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnorma%2Brae%26imgsz%3Dxxlarge%26hl%3D en%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

[hope4dopes]

nice tits

[Winehole23]

ese? another blast from the past precious.bye, micca.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The "left wing" version of this came out in February.

And it's not attacking conservatives... it's talking about radical groups like the kkk, neo-nazis etc etc... How it's a perfect storm (economy, black president, immigration issues) to get recruitment up. Is there denying that?

It has nothing to do with these fucking tea parties. that's giving too much credit to them.

Actually the version in February was specific to fringe groups like ELF. There was no general 'liberalism is bad' crap, like this incredibly slanted and biased piece of shit article.

Nice spin though, but I agree it has nothing to do with the tea parties.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

By the way, props to the Obama Administration. Jihadis and terrorism perpetrated by Muslim radicals has now been renamed 'man-made disasters' but anyone in this country who believes in the Constitution, states rights, securing our borders, upholding the Second Amendment, etc. is labeled a potential terrorist by them.

What a bunch of assholes.

[PixelPusher]

Actually the version in February was specific to fringe groups like ELF. There was no general 'liberalism is bad' crap, like this incredibly slanted and biased piece of shit article.

Nice spin though, but I agree it has nothing to do with the tea parties.

The report refers to "Neo-Nazis, the KKK and anti-government militias".


By the way, props to the Obama Administration. Jihadis and terrorism perpetrated by Muslim radicals has now been renamed 'man-made disasters' but anyone in this country who believes in the Constitution, states rights, securing our borders, upholding the Second Amendment, etc. is labeled a potential terrorist by them.

What a bunch of assholes.
As far as I know, you aren't a member of any of these "Rightwing extremists" group, so I don't know why you and the rest of the Fox News / talk radio crowd are taking it so personally...

...or to put the way you guys did for the last 8 years:

"If you're not a terrorist, you've got nothin' to worry about, do you?" (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40750&highlight=terrorist+worry)

[PixelPusher]

If this kharmic retribution follows through on it's course, I'd expect the next beef from the right will be with FBI agents infiltrating and spying on Tea Party protesters. (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060508/8homeland.htm)

...and at that point, even I can overlook the shit ton of rightwing hypocrisy to share in you discomfort.

[ChumpDumper]

Poor, oppressed extreme conservative groups.

[ElNono]

By the way, props to the Obama Administration. Jihadis and terrorism perpetrated by Muslim radicals has now been renamed 'man-made disasters' but anyone in this country who believes in the Constitution, states rights, securing our borders, upholding the Second Amendment, etc. is labeled a potential terrorist by them.

What a bunch of assholes.

This would make sense if the report was ordered by the Obama administration. It was actually ordered by the Bush Administration. They're just showing the results of the report now.

[JoeChalupa]

I remember not so long ago being called un-patriotic and accused of aiding the enemy because I would speak out against the war.

[DarrinS]

You know what's interesting about that document? No supportive DATA.

And


This statement:





The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence, but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues. The economic downturn and the election of the first African American president present unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and recruitment.

[ChumpDumper]

The report refers to "Neo-Nazis, the KKK and anti-government militias".I do find it odd that board Republicans feel they are being included with these groups in this report.

Here's the real question:

Are you are a right wing extremist that is planning violence?

If your answer is no, this report is not about you.

[Marcus Bryant]

Probably because most agree with the 10th amendment.

[DarrinS]

I do find it odd that board Republicans feel they are being included with these groups in this report.

Here's the real question:

Are you are a right wing extremist that is planning violence?

If your answer is no, this report is not about you.



Evidently, this document is about no one, because they have no specific information that any acts of violence are being planned, only that conditions are conducive, a "perfect storm" if you will, for this type of activity.

[ChumpDumper]

Evidently, this document is about no one, because they have no specific information that any acts of violence are being planned, only that conditions are conducive, a "perfect storm" if you will, for this type of activity.So you are saying there have never been any right wing extremists who have acted violently in the history of the United States.

I disagree.

I say they have in the past, and perhaps present conditions could increase the likelihood of such activity.

[implacable44]

So you are saying there have never been any right wing extremists who have acted violently in the history of the United States.

I disagree.

I say they have in the past, and perhaps present conditions could increase the likelihood of such activity.

good thing those level headed leftist extreme groups never get violent. they are a model for the rest of the extremists to follow.

[ChumpDumper]

good thing those level headed leftist extreme groups never get violent. they are a model for the rest of the extremists to follow.They had their own report describing their violence. No one has denied their use of violence.

You're an idiot.

[implacable44]

They had their own report describing their violence. No one has denied their use of violence.

You're an idiot.


If I am an idiot you must just be a complete Moron. You are like a propagandist.. a regular Seth Mcfarlane type.. minimizing the issue with your "nothing to see here attitude" ... Obama will break promise after promise and you will make light of it... Obama is forcing CEO's to step down - refusing to allow banks to pay back TARP money - forcing states to take money .. expanding the FED (unconstitutional) and you say , there is nothing to see here...

MORON and a cowardly one at that. You will be one of the pansies begging for people like me to come help you - save you or bail you out.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

What does this have to do with DHS reports?

You guys crack me up.

[implacable44]

I do find it odd that board Republicans feel they are being included with these groups in this report.

Here's the real question:

Are you are a right wing extremist that is planning violence?

If your answer is no, this report is not about you.

its also odd the report doesn't mention anything about left wing extremists.. its odd that cap and trade is being pushed through and forced down our throats with no plan - no debate... increased taxes -- states want to retor-activate taxes to take more money from joe citizen... It is also odd how the AIG folks were villanized for doing what the Obama administration asked of them... It is odd that David Coe is appointed -- a guy who wants a diminshed role for the constitution and favors international law over American law... There are a lot of "ODD" things going on.....

[DarrinS]

So you are saying there have never been any right wing extremists who have acted violently in the history of the United States.

I disagree.

I say they have in the past, and perhaps present conditions could increase the likelihood of such activity.


Well, you've done a fine job of restating the premise of the document.

It's strange. The Bush admin was accused of fear mongering. Of course, his "boogeymen" were people that perpetrated the largest and most deadly terrorist attack in World history.

[ChumpDumper]

Me: There is a DHS report about left wing extremists including their violent acts.

Idiot: You'll be begging me for money!

[ChumpDumper]

its also odd the report doesn't mention anything about left wing extremists.As has been said many times before, they are addressed in a separate report.

Somehow, you still fail completely to understand that.

You are an idiot.

[DarrinS]

Strangely enough, no race riots after Colin Powell and Condi Rice were named Secretary of State.

[implacable44]

As has been said many times before, they are addressed in a separate report.

Somehow, you still fail completely to understand that.

You are an idiot.

You're a Moron. I wonder if your mom dropped you on your head

[DarrinS]

I wonder if they'll be beefing up security to keep an eye on Robert Byrd's office?

[ChumpDumper]

Well, you've done a fine job of restating the premise of the document.You're welcome. That's all it said.


It's strange. The Bush admin was accused of fear mongering. Of course, his "boogeymen" were people that perpetrated the largest and most deadly terrorist attack in World history.It's strange. This report was originated during the Bush administration and no one wants to accept that it's a pretty standard report.

Poor, oppressed board Republicans who want to be violent right wing extremists....

[ChumpDumper]

You're a Moron. I wonder if your mom dropped you on your headNo. Have you figured out that there was a separate report for left wing extremists yet?

I'll keep repeating it until you understand.

[DarrinS]

The document also implies that returning veterans are a bunch of brain dead psychos. Nice job.

[Indazone]

Americans just excercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Nothing to see here.

[ChumpDumper]

The document also implies that returning veterans are a bunch of brain dead psychos. Nice job.Operative words are "small percentage."

Again, there is precedent. Are you denying this?

[DarrinS]

Tomothy McVeigh carried out his attack during a period of economic prospertiy and with a white president in office.

He also shared a fairly liberal sentiment as it pertains to Iraq:




The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (“weapons of mass destruction”) – mainly because they have used them in the past.

Well, if that’s the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims that this was done for deterrent purposes during the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. Why, then is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) — with respect to Iraq’s (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?

If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of “mass destruction” — like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above?

The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.

[implacable44]

No. Have you figured out that there was a separate report for left wing extremists yet?

I'll keep repeating it until you understand.

you cannot be as stupid as you portray..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/14/federal-agency-warns-of-radicals-on-right/

calling out veterans as targets -- those who favor state rights over federal governemnt ( I guess RIck Perry is on the watch list now along with every founding father save Hamilton were they alive today) -- those who oppose abortion ?

but the Moron says -- nothing to see here...

[implacable44]

Operative words are "small percentage."

Again, there is precedent. Are you denying this?

no those are irrelevant words you Moron.

[ChumpDumper]

you cannot be as stupid as you portray..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/14/federal-agency-warns-of-radicals-on-right/

calling out veterans as targets -- those who favor state rights over federal governemnt ( I guess RIck Perry is on the watch list now along with every founding father save Hamilton were they alive today) -- those who oppose abortion ?

but the Moron says -- nothing to see here...Again, are you a violent, right wing extremist?

If no, this report is not about you.

If the DHS makes a report about idiots, then you'll know it's about you.

[ChumpDumper]

no those are irrelevant words you Moron.:lol You didn't even read the report.

Typical.

You're an idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

Tomothy McVeigh carried out his attack during a period of economic prospertiy and with a white president in office.Thanks for letting us know what color the president was back then.

[implacable44]

Again, are you a violent, right wing extremist?

If no, this report is not about you.

If the DHS makes a report about idiots, then you'll know it's about you.

according ot the report anyone who opposes abortion, or illegal immigration, or is a veteran, or favors state's rights "might" be a right wing extremist and therefore a target - but then you probably already knew that , didn't you -- MORON?

[implacable44]

:lol You didn't even read the report.

Typical.

You're an idiot.

I did read the report. did you -- I mean there were not any pictures so maybe daddy read it to you?

Moron.

[ChumpDumper]

according ot the report anyone who opposes abortion, or illegal immigration, or is a veteran, or favors state's rights "might" be a right wing extremist and therefore a target - but then you probably already knew that , didn't you -- MORON?No, that is not what it said.

You're an idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

I did read the report. did you -- I mean there were not any pictures so maybe daddy read it to you?

Moron.My dad is dead.

You're an idiot.

[DarrinS]

Thanks for letting us know what color the president was back then.


Instances of "African American president" in the document: 4

Instances of "rightwing" in the document: 47

Instances of "leftist" or "leftwing" in the document: 0

[implacable44]

No, that is not what it said.

You're an idiot.

yes that is what the DHS said in a footnote to the report sent to local agencies -- MORON.

[ChumpDumper]

Instances of "African American president" in the document: 4

Instances of "rightwing" in the document: 47

Instances of "leftist" or "leftwing" in the document: 0Seriously, you still don't get that the left wing groups had their own report?

And trying to paint McVeigh as a liberal? :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

no those are irrelevant words you Moron.

How are those words "irrelevant"? There is a huge range of psychological ailments that accompany returning veterans, particularly in highly controversial wars like Iraq and Vietnam.

The BUSH administration ordered these reports, as Chump has said. Are you going to respond to that or continue to blame Obama for something Bush did?


Tomothy McVeigh carried out his attack during a period of economic prospertiy and with a white president in office.

He also shared a fairly liberal sentiment as it pertains to Iraq:

Congratulations. You've shown that "fairly liberal" people can be crazy too. What's your point?


Strangely enough, no race riots after Colin Powell and Condi Rice were named Secretary of State.

Because that's equal to the Presidency. :rolleyes

The bottom line is that we haven't hit bottom economically yet. When we do, you'll see tensions ramp up much more than they are now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The report refers to "Neo-Nazis, the KKK and anti-government militias".


As far as I know, you aren't a member of any of these "Rightwing extremists" group, so I don't know why you and the rest of the Fox News / talk radio crowd are taking it so personally...

...or to put the way you guys did for the last 8 years:

"If you're not a terrorist, you've got nothin' to worry about, do you?" (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40750&highlight=terrorist+worry)

While I agree with your premise, the part I have a problem with is this:


Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and [b]those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration

The bolded part paints with an awfully broad brush. Rejects federal authority in favor of state authority (uh, hello, 10th Amendment of the Constitution). And hitting conservative talking points such as abortion and immigration...

This goes hand in hand with Obama and his administration attempting to marginalize critics in the media, and 'radicalizing' any opposition to his administration through the media and news. It's conditioning people in this country to associate any conservative ideology with extremism, which couldn't be a worse generalization to be made.

If they had come out with anything like this about liberals already, I would have had a problem with that as well, but what docs they did come out with on the left were concentrated on specific groups like ELF.

This is much more general and stereotyping. I'm not worried for myself, I'm worried where this is all headed.

[ChumpDumper]

yes that is what the DHS said in a footnote to the report sent to local agencies -- MORON.Please quote that footnote.

[Cry Havoc]

Instances of "African American president" in the document: 4

Instances of "rightwing" in the document: 47

Instances of "leftist" or "leftwing" in the document: 0

Bush ordered the report. Thanks for playing. Chump and I can be just as redundant as you, except you don't respond to anything we say about it.

[Cry Havoc]

While I agree with your premise, the part I have a problem with is this:



The bolded part paints with an awfully broad brush. Rejects federal authority in favor of state authority (uh, hello, 10th Amendment of the Constitution). And hitting conservative talking points such as abortion and immigration...

This goes hand in hand with Obama and his administration attempting to marginalize critics in the media, and 'radicalizing' any opposition to his administration through the media and news. It's conditioning people in this country to associate any conservative ideology with extremism, which couldn't be a worse generalization to be made.

If they had come out with anything like this about liberals already, I would have had a problem with that as well, but what docs they did come out with on the left were concentrated on specific groups like ELF.

This is much more general and stereotyping. I'm not worried for myself, I'm worried where this is all headed.

BUSH. ORDERED. THIS. REPORT.

Seriously, what is difficult to comprehend about this statement? What don't you guys get?

[JoeChalupa]

I don't remember many republicans being too concerned in the past. Russ Feingold's efforts to place limits and abuse-preventing safeguards on the Patriot Act powers in 2006 attracted a grand total of 10 votes in the Senate -- none Republican.

[Cry Havoc]

Patriot Act

Speaking of, it's hilarious that righties are worried about individual rights when this has done more to erode personal liberty than anything a President has done since well before I was born.

[JoeChalupa]

Speaking of, it's hilarious that righties are worried about individual rights when this has done more to erode personal liberty than anything a President has done since well before I was born.

Hey, but that was under King George so that made it okay.

[implacable44]

Please quote that footnote.

already did Moron -- and so did another person - but then you read the report and the accompanying footnotes and or comments - so why would I need to quote it for you again ?

Bush ordered the report .. who cares... Obama and his appointees carried it out and issued the report. WHAT ABOUT THAT DON'T YOU GET ?

[Cry Havoc]

Hey, but that was under King George so that made it okay.

Well... it doesn't concern an iPod or a dog, so it's forgivable.

[ChumpDumper]

already did MoronNo, you didn't.

Please do so now.

[clambake]

Bush ordered the report ..Obama and his appointees carried it out

which one is the bad one?

[implacable44]

which one is the bad one?

Both of them.

[implacable44]

No, you didn't.

Please do so now.

Yes I did. and it is on page 3 of this thread... look for the pictures.

[clambake]

Both of them.

a communist regime would agree with you.

is that what you want?

[Cry Havoc]

Both of them.

Where was the outrage when Bush ordered this report, then?

[implacable44]

a communist regime would agree with you.

is that what you want?

a communist regime would agree with me that both Obama and Bush are bad -- as would several other groups / people/ organizations / types of governemnt (ron paul folks, true conservatives) .. so ???

[ChumpDumper]

Here are all your posts from page 3:
good thing those level headed leftist extreme groups never get violent. they are a model for the rest of the extremists to follow.


If I am an idiot you must just be a complete Moron. You are like a propagandist.. a regular Seth Mcfarlane type.. minimizing the issue with your "nothing to see here attitude" ... Obama will break promise after promise and you will make light of it... Obama is forcing CEO's to step down - refusing to allow banks to pay back TARP money - forcing states to take money .. expanding the FED (unconstitutional) and you say , there is nothing to see here...

MORON and a cowardly one at that. You will be one of the pansies begging for people like me to come help you - save you or bail you out.


its also odd the report doesn't mention anything about left wing extremists.. its odd that cap and trade is being pushed through and forced down our throats with no plan - no debate... increased taxes -- states want to retor-activate taxes to take more money from joe citizen... It is also odd how the AIG folks were villanized for doing what the Obama administration asked of them... It is odd that David Coe is appointed -- a guy who wants a diminshed role for the constitution and favors international law over American law... There are a lot of "ODD" things going on.....


You're a Moron. I wonder if your mom dropped you on your head


you cannot be as stupid as you portray..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/14/federal-agency-warns-of-radicals-on-right/

calling out veterans as targets -- those who favor state rights over federal governemnt ( I guess RIck Perry is on the watch list now along with every founding father save Hamilton were they alive today) -- those who oppose abortion ?

but the Moron says -- nothing to see here...No quote of the footnote.

So you are also a liar.

[ElNono]

I don't understand why these guys hate America so much.
I mean, the DHS was created by Bush to protect America.
Obviously, if you disagree with the DHS report you're unpatriotic.

Why do you hate America?

[implacable44]

Here are all your posts from page 3:







No quote of the footnote.

So you are also a liar.

from the quoted - cited linked article :

A footnote attached to the report by the Homeland Security Office of Intelligence and Analysis defines "rightwing extremism in the United States" as including not just racist or hate groups, but also groups that reject federal authority in favor of state or local authority.

"It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single-issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration," the warning says.

The White House has distanced itself from the analysis. When asked for comment on its contents, White House spokesman Nick Shapiro said, "The President is focused not on politics but rather taking the steps necessary to protect all Americans from the threat of violence and terrorism regardless of its origins. He also believes those who serve represent the best of this country, and he will continue to ensure that our veterans receive the respect and benefits they have earned."


you Moron are void of any integrity.

[FaithInOne]

Fucking Patrick Henry, that god damned extremist.

Jefferson? Ewwwwww


I'd say Henry was right in that the system would eventually turn into a corrupt control-hungry pile of shit with political oppressive officials distant from the common people who they "work to serve", while Hamilton was right in that a solid strong union would protect the internal pieces from better organized outside nations.

[clambake]

a communist regime would agree with me that both Obama and Bush are bad
uh oh, you're not talking about the report anymore.

as would several other groups / people/ organizations / types of governemnt (ron paul folks, true conservatives) .. so ???
what did ron paul say about the report?

i'd ask about the others you mentioned.....but you're not specific.

[ChumpDumper]

from the quoted - cited linked article :

A footnote attached to the report by the Homeland Security Office of Intelligence and Analysis defines "rightwing extremism in the United States" as including not just racist or hate groups, but also groups that reject federal authority in favor of state or local authority.

"It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single-issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration," the warning says.Oh, those characterizations are in the actual report you didn't read, not footnotes.

Thanks for providing the proof! :tu

And you still don't understand what it means.

You're an idiot.

[LnGrrrR]

Wait wait... Seth McFarlane is a propagandist? lol

[implacable44]

Oh, those characterizations are in the actual report you didn't read, not footnotes.

Thanks for providing the proof! :tu

And you still don't understand what it means.

You're an idiot.

you are a moron - you keep on twisting it though - nothing to see here...

[DarrinS]

Bush ordered the report. Thanks for playing. Chump and I can be just as redundant as you, except you don't respond to anything we say about it.


Who prepared it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Portrait_Napolitano_hires_new.jpg/225px-Portrait_Napolitano_hires_new.jpg


EDIT> And Gawd Damn is she ugly.

[implacable44]

uh oh, you're not talking about the report anymore.

what did ron paul say about the report?

i'd ask about the others you mentioned.....but you're not specific.

Are you retarded? well you are a Mavs fan so forget I asked -- but you brought up Communists would agree that Bush and Obama were bad. Try to keep up.. FOCUS.

[implacable44]

Wait wait... Seth McFarlane is a propagandist? lol

no the family guy isn't a medium used for his political ideas-- not at all.

[Crookshanks]

You guys keep saying Bush ordered this report - where do you get that information? Nothing I've read says anywhere that the Bush administration ordered the report. And considering the report specifically mentions "the historic election", I'm wondering how they knew the outcome before the fact?

[ChumpDumper]

you are a moron - you keep on twisting it though - nothing to see here...It was all there to see....

....in the report....

....that you proved you didn't read....

[ChumpDumper]

You guys keep saying Bush ordered this report - where do you get that information? Nothing I've read says anywhere that the Bush administration ordered the report. And considering the report specifically mentions "the historic election", I'm wondering how they knew the outcome before the fact?Bush was still president for months after the election.

[Crookshanks]

Bush was still president for months after the election.

And...? I still want to read where you learned the Bush Administration ordered the report.

[George Gervin's Afro]

(U) A recent example of the potential violence associated with a rise in rightwing
extremism may be found in the shooting deaths of three police officers in
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on 4 April 2009. The alleged gunman’s reaction
reportedly was influenced by his racist ideology and belief in antigovernment
conspiracy theories related to gun confiscations, citizen detention camps, and a
Jewish-controlled “one world government.”



How can anyone argue that when certain media outlets( talk radio) espouse rhetoric that is borderline dangerous is not the primary cause of this paranioa. Of course you would have to be an idiot to believe everything you hear hannity or Lush say but apprently there are plenty of idiots.

[ChumpDumper]

And...? I still want to read where you learned the Bush Administration ordered the report.I personally don't think these reports are specifically ordered by presidents. The DHS is charged with assessing potential threats and right wing extremists are indeed a potential threat, just as the left wing extremists reported on months earlier. You can get pissy about the minutiae contained in the report, but I would think them remiss if they just ignored the potential threat.

[clambake]

Are you retarded? well you are a Mavs fan so forget I asked -- but you brought up Communists would agree that Bush and Obama were bad.
because you said you didn't like bush ordering the report or obama submitting it.

you'd like to live under the heavy hand of oppression?

Try to keep up.. FOCUS.
try to make sense...ONCE.

[DarrinS]

How can anyone argue that when certain media outlets( talk radio) espouse rhetoric that is borderline dangerous is not the primary cause of this paranioa. Of course you would have to be an idiot to believe everything you hear hannity or Lush say but apprently there are plenty of idiots.


What talk radio stations did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein listen to?

[George Gervin's Afro]

What talk radio stations did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein listen to?

What do they have to do with Right wing extremism? How do they fit in the DHS report?

[DarrinS]

What do they have to do with Right wing extremism? How do they fit in the DHS report?

What does talk radio have to do with the DHS report?

[Cry Havoc]

And...? I still want to read where you learned the Bush Administration ordered the report.


In fact, the Obama administration in January did issue a warning about left-wing extremists. Both reports were initiated during the administration of former President George W. Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/14/extremism.report/index.html

[Cry Havoc]

EDIT> And Gawd Damn is she ugly.

You stay classy.

[implacable44]

because you said you didn't like bush ordering the report or obama submitting it.

you'd like to live under the heavy hand of oppression?

try to make sense...ONCE.

no i did not say that.

[DarrinS]

Evidently, some people have been preparing for this for a long time.

HagUwuWTo_Y

[implacable44]

How can anyone argue that when certain media outlets( talk radio) espouse rhetoric that is borderline dangerous is not the primary cause of this paranioa. Of course you would have to be an idiot to believe everything you hear hannity or Lush say but apprently there are plenty of idiots.

as opposed to the geniuses who believe all the Olbermans, Bill Mahers, Katie Courics etc of the vast liberal media ?

[DarrinS]

I like this serious of thought-provoking, well produced Youtube videos:

DnoYnDW2q3s

[RandomGuy]

So according to DHS, Gov. Rick Perry is now considered more dangerous than Muslim extremists? You can't make this stuff up - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so scary.

Anybody think this is just a "coincidence" that this report comes out right before the Tax Day Tea Parties?

Another day - another reason to despise the Obama administration.

Actually that isn't what the paper said at all.

Here's think link to the actual .pdf:
http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

[RandomGuy]

For what it is worth:
the (U/FOUO) in that document denotes "Unclassified, For Offical Use Only"

Had to look up "U//LES" though.

That means Law Enforcement Sensitive.

Not an abbreviation I was familiar with. Neat.

[RandomGuy]

You guys keep saying Bush ordered this report - where do you get that information? Nothing I've read says anywhere that the Bush administration ordered the report. And considering the report specifically mentions "the historic election", I'm wondering how they knew the outcome before the fact?

The date of the report, i.e. 7 April 2009, makes it unlikely that it was ordered after Jan 20th, 2009, especially seeing as how it is a finalized analysis paper, presumedly proofed and vetted for content.

I would guess that it was mostly written though by November of 2008. It would not have been to hard to modify some of the language acknowledging who won the election.

Remember that who was running for president for the Dems has been known for well over a year, so language acknowleding an "historic election" didn't necessarily have to reflect who won. It would have been an historical election even if Obama had lost, simply because he was the first black major party candidate for that office.

More than likely the langauge and some of the content was tweaked towards the end to reflect this. It seems that the majority of the report could have been written anytime within the last 4 years or so.

[George Gervin's Afro]

What does talk radio have to do with the DHS report?

Talk radio propogandizes right wing extremism. Thanks for playing. Now answer my question.

[Crookshanks]

Talk radio propogandizes right wing extremism. Thanks for playing. Now answer my question.
I listen to talk radio all day - and I have for years. I've also read books by Mark Levin, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham - and NEVER have I heard them espouse violence of any kind. They don't condone those who use violence to further their ideals.

However, they are AGAINST illegal immigration, abortion, high taxes, intrusive government and trampling on the Constitution - is that the extremism you're referring to?

[baseline bum]

I listen to talk radio all day - and I have for years. I've also read books by Mark Levin, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham - and NEVER have I heard them espouse violence of any kind. They don't condone those who use violence to further their ideals.

Oops


We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

[Cry Havoc]

More words of wisdom from Ms. Coulter.

"If those kids had been carrying guns they would have gunned down this one [child] gunman. ... Don't pray. Learn to use guns."---Politically Incorrect, 12/18/97

"I have to say I'm all for public flogging. One type of criminal that a public humiliation might work particularly well with are the juvenile delinquents, a lot of whom consider it a badge of honor to be sent to juvenile detention. And it might not be such a cool thing in the 'hood to be flogged publicly."---MSNBC 3/22/97

[Bartleby]

Sean Hannity: “I’ll tell you who should be tortured and killed at Guantanamo, every filthy Democrat in the U.S. Congress. ”


Ann Coulter: “I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days” to talk to liberals.

my “only regret with [Oklahoma City bomber] Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building.”

[DarkReign]

Well, there goes that whole "dont espouse violence" nonsense...

[RandomGuy]

I've ... read books by ... Ann Coulter and - NEVER have I heard [her] espouse violence of any kind. [She and others] don't condone those who use violence to further their ideals.
(begin edit)
[name-calling deleted]
(end edit)
If you have the decency to admit you were wrong about that, I will delete this whole post and apologize for being an ass.

If you don't, then you deserve it completely and without any reservations.

[implacable44]

You can find a similar quote for every liberal clown on television as well. -- from Keith Olberman - to Bill Maher - to everyone at CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC and MSNBC. Can't really focus on the radio because nobody listens to those liberal clowns onthe radio -- I am sure we could find similar quotes for all the print media that is OWNED by the liberals as well.

[Crookshanks]

Ok - Ok, I admit it - I WAS WRONG! Now are all of you happy? I said I had never heard them espouse violence. But much of what Ann Coulter says is sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek - but I suppose a person who was already unhinged could take her seriously.


More words of wisdom from Ms. Coulter.

"If those kids had been carrying guns they would have gunned down this one [child] gunman. ... Don't pray. Learn to use guns."---Politically Incorrect, 12/18/97

"I have to say I'm all for public flogging. One type of criminal that a public humiliation might work particularly well with are the juvenile delinquents, a lot of whom consider it a badge of honor to be sent to juvenile detention. And it might not be such a cool thing in the 'hood to be flogged publicly."---MSNBC 3/22/97

Are you honestly putting Ann Coulter in the same category with Timothy McVeigh or the people who gun down innocent people? In the first quote, she's advocating self-defense; in the second quote she's talking about discipline.

But since we're cutting and pasting all these quotes from conservatives; how about you add some from the people who wanted Bush assassinated? And have you ever heard the calls from the "Hate Hannity" hot line? Now those are some vile, hateful people!

[Cry Havoc]

Are you honestly putting Ann Coulter in the same category with Timothy McVeigh or the people who gun down innocent people?

What.... are you talking about? Seriously, what could possibly lead you to believe that I'm comparing Ann Coulter and Timothy McVeigh? Because they're in the same thread? You tried to come in here with your high-minded view of your political pundits and tell everyone how they're saints. I was merely rebutting what is obviously a ridiculously faulty statement.


In the first quote, she's advocating self-defense

She's talking about children carrying guns. Is that something you support?


in the second quote she's talking about discipline.

Again, of adolescents. Do you think adolescents deserve this?

http://torture.justsickshit.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/flogging1.gif

That's an interesting idea of "discipline".


But since we're cutting and pasting all these quotes from conservatives; how about you add some from the people who wanted Bush assassinated? And have you ever heard the calls from the "Hate Hannity" hot line? Now those are some vile, hateful people!

Here's the difference: I don't fall at the feet of those "vile, hateful people" that call in to those shows. I don't follow them, know their names, or listen to them for hours a day. Your assertion is that "we" should be ashamed because random idiots call the shows you watch and rant aimlessly, when in reality they are faceless, nameless callers.

But you're finally getting the point. Those crazy people sound... a lot... like some of the people you listen to every day on the radio. Except you love those hosts for their (sponsored) crazed banter while ridiculing those of the opposite viewpoint. :toast

[DarrinS]

Napolitano stands by "extremism" report

From http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/napolitano-stands-rightwing-extremism/





Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said she was briefed before the release of a controversial intelligence assessment and that she stands by the report sent to law enforcement that lists veterans as a terrorist risk to the U.S. and defines "rightwing extremism" as including groups opposed to abortion and immigration.

The outcry resulted in a demand from the head of the American Legion to meet with Ms. Napolitano, a request the DHS chief said she would honor next week when she returns to Washington from her current tour of the U.S.-Mexican border.

"The document on right-wing extremism sent last week by this department´s Office of Intelligence and Analysis is one in an ongoing series of assessments to provide situational awareness to state, local and tribal law enforcement agencies on the phenomenon and trends of violent radicalization in the United States," Ms. Napolitano said in a statement.

• Click here to download a PDF of the report.

"I was briefed on the general topic, which is one that struck a nerve as someone personally involved in the Timothy McVeigh prosecution," Ms. Napolitano said.

"Let me be very clear: we monitor the risks of violent extremism taking root here in the United States. We don´t have the luxury of focusing our efforts on one group; we must protect the country from terrorism whether foreign or homegrown, and regardless of the ideology that motivates its violence," Ms. Napolitano said.

• Related article: Legion objects to vets as terror risk

"We are on the lookout for criminal and terrorist activity but we do not — nor will we ever — monitor ideology or political beliefs :rolleyes. We take seriously our responsibility to protect the civil rights and liberties of the American people, including subjecting our activities to rigorous oversight from numerous internal and external sources," Ms. Napolitano said.

The nine-page document titled "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," has caused an outcry from veterans groups, Republican lawmakers and conservative activists.

"Rightwing extremism," the report defines in a footnote on Page 2, goes beyond religious and racial hate groups and extends to "those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely."

"It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration," said the report, which also listed as suspect gun owners and veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

The American Legion on Tuesday criticized the report as unfairly stereotyping veterans.

"I am aware of the letter from American Legion National Commander (David) Rehbein, and my staff has already contacted him to set up a meeting next week once I return from travel. I will tell him face-to-face that we honor veterans at DHS and employ thousands across the department, up to and including the Deputy Secretary," Ms. Napolitano said.

"As the department responsible for protecting the homeland, DHS will continue to work with its state and local partners to prevent and protect against the potential threat to the United States associated with any rise in violent extremist activity," Ms. Napolitano said.

[Oh, Gee!!]

my problem with the report is that states nothing of value or interest with all of the "coulds" and "mights" and "possiblys." It reads like a term paper written by a freshman who was afraid to upset his professor.

[clambake]

i think you'd have to be unhinged to take ann coulter seriously.......or read one of her books.

[ChumpDumper]

Napolitano stands by "extremism" report

From http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/napolitano-stands-rightwing-extremism/A small percentage is a small percentage.

And there is no need for quotation marks.

[DarrinS]

A small percentage is a small percentage.

And there is no need for quotation marks.


Directly quoting the title of the Wash Times article.

[ChumpDumper]

Directly quoting the title of the Wash Times article.I know.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

And there is no need for quotation marks.
coming from a guy that embraces the question mark.

[Cry Havoc]

coming from a guy that embraces the question mark.

!

[RandomGuy]

I've ... read books by ... Ann Coulter and - NEVER have I heard [her] espouse violence of any kind. [She and others] don't condone those who use violence to further their ideals.


(begin edit)
[name-calling deleted]
(end edit)
If you have the decency to admit you were wrong about that, I will delete this whole post and apologize for being an ass.


Ok - Ok, I admit it - I WAS WRONG! Now are all of you happy?

I am sorry I was an ass about that.

You have the decency to admit you were wrong, and thank you.


I said I had never heard them espouse violence. But much of what Ann Coulter says is sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek - but I suppose a person who was already unhinged could take her seriously.

Are you honestly putting Ann Coulter in the same category with Timothy McVeigh or the people who gun down innocent people? In the first quote, she's advocating self-defense; in the second quote she's talking about discipline.

But since we're cutting and pasting all these quotes from conservatives; how about you add some from the people who wanted Bush assassinated? And have you ever heard the calls from the "Hate Hannity" hot line? Now those are some vile, hateful people

I personally have no doubt that if somehow absolute power was handed to Ann Coulter, she would very likely do some of the rather violent things she has stated should happen.

You give her credit for sarcasm, but if you really watch the video of these statements, you would be hard pressed to catch whether she was being sarcastic or not.

A lot of it is probably intentionally outrageous, but you can't say so many violent things like that without meaning at least some of it on some level.

[Marcus Bryant]

The larger lesson here is that many find it perfectly acceptable that federal law enforcement can brand certain groups and individuals as "extremist" simply on the basis of their beliefs, be it left-wing or right-wing, and proclaim them to be a threat without any actual evidence.

Yes, this latest report was quite piss poor. Or have we entered the age of thought crimes?

[ChumpDumper]

I disagree with the premise of the lesson.

[Marcus Bryant]

So should state and local law enforcement agencies disregard the DHS?

[Crookshanks]

I am sorry I was an ass about that.

You have the decency to admit you were wrong, and thank you.



I personally have no doubt that if somehow absolute power was handed to Ann Coulter, she would very likely do some of the rather violent things she has stated should happen.

You give her credit for sarcasm, but if you really watch the video of these statements, you would be hard pressed to catch whether she was being sarcastic or not.

A lot of it is probably intentionally outrageous, but you can't say so many violent things like that without meaning at least some of it on some level.

You may be right; but honestly, if I met Nancy Pelosi and could get away with it, I'd slap her face so hard the botox would come out her ears! And I'd like to punch Harry Reid right in his weasley mouth. But that's my personal feelings, I'd never tell people it was the right thing to do.

And I think it's the same with Ann Coulter. She voices her opinion, but she's not saying we should all resort to violent acts in order to advance the conservative agenda. And that's the difference between her and groups like the KKK.

[ChumpDumper]

So should state and local law enforcement agencies disregard the DHS?Not what I said.

People with those beliefs aren't necessarily extremists, but right wing extremists could indeed hold those beliefs.

To an extreme.

[RandomGuy]

my problem with the report is that states nothing of value or interest with all of the "coulds" and "mights" and "possiblys." It reads like a term paper written by a freshman who was afraid to upset his professor.

That is how intel summaries read in general.

One can know very little with absolute certainty, so virtually everything is couched in shades of possibility.

Honestly, I find accounting to be very similar to intel work.

You can never truly get a 100% accurate picture of a flowing process such as a large business. You just shoot for "good enough", unless you have the manpower to explore and test every penny of $1.5Bn worth of transactions.

[ChumpDumper]

Crookshanks is quite violent.

[LnGrrrR]

I still love how Seth McFarlane is a propagandist. As is the guy who makes 24 I guess, and the producers of SNL, and pretty much anyone who's ever made a fucking show worth watching.

[Marcus Bryant]

Then the DHS bureaucrat who authored the advisory might think about sticking to those actual groups with a history of violence, right or left, and leave the rest of the citizenry who merely are exercising their 1st amendment rights (some in favor of another part of the Bill of Rights) out of it.

[LnGrrrR]

You may be right; but honestly, if I met Nancy Pelosi and could get away with it, I'd slap her face so hard the botox would come out her ears! And I'd like to punch Harry Reid right in his weasley mouth. But that's my personal feelings, I'd never tell people it was the right thing to do.

And I think it's the same with Ann Coulter. She voices her opinion, but she's not saying we should all resort to violent acts in order to advance the conservative agenda. And that's the difference between her and groups like the KKK.

Christian values Crookshanks? Love thy neighbor?

[DarrinS]

I still love how Seth McFarlane is a propagandist. As is the guy who makes 24 I guess, and the producers of SNL, and pretty much anyone who's ever made a fucking show worth watching.



I don't know what he is, but he's one rich mofo.


Fox is paying him 100 million and who knows that Google is paying him.


Good for him, though. That's the American dream.

[DarrinS]

the larger lesson here is that many find it perfectly acceptable that federal law enforcement can brand certain groups and individuals as "extremist" simply on the basis of their beliefs, be it left-wing or right-wing, and proclaim them to be a threat without any actual evidence.

Yes, this latest report was quite piss poor. Or have we entered the age of thought crimes?


+1

[Marcus Bryant]

Not to mention that veterans of our armed forces who have seen combat action in service to their country were also slandered by that report.

[Marcus Bryant]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/15/top-dem-dumbfounded-extremism-report/

Top Dem 'dumbfounded' by 'extremism' report

By Audrey Hudson | Wednesday, April 15, 2009
The Washington Times

The top House Democrat overseeing the Department of Homeland Security is demanding that officials there explain how and why they wrote and released a controversial report identifying veterans as potential terrorist threats.

Rep. Bennie G. Thompson of Mississippi, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said in a letter to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano that he was "dumbfounded" such a report would be issued.

"This report appears to raise significant issues involving the privacy and civil liberties of many Americans -- including war veterans," Mr. Thompson said in the letter sent Tuesday.

"As I am certain you agree, freedom of association and freedom of speech are guaranteed to all Americans -- whether a person's beliefs, whatever their political orientation, are 'extremist' or not," Mr. Thompson said.

The report "blurred the line," and Mr. Thompson said he is "disappointed and surprised that the department would allow this report to be disseminated" to law enforcement officials nationwide.

Also Wednesday, Ms. Napolitano issued a statement standing by the report, which she personally had reviewed before it was issued. She insisted that DHS never would investigate based on political ideology and agreed to meet the head of the American Legion, who already had expressed anger over the report.

The Washington Times reported Tuesday that the department's Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) released a report titled Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment on April 7. It identified as potential terrorist threats people who collect guns, veterans, supporters of border control, and pro-life advocates.

"I am particularly struck by the report's conclusion which states that I&A 'will be working with its state and local partners over the next several months to ascertain with greater regional specificity the rise in rightwing extremist activity in the United States with a particular emphasis on the political, economic, and social factors that drive rightwing extremist radicalization,'" Mr. Thompson said, demanding to know what types of activities DHS had planned for "the next several months."

[ChumpDumper]

Not to mention that veterans of our armed forces who have seen combat action in service to their country were also slandered by that report.Right.

A small percentage joined extremist right wing groups in the past, so we should pretend it never happened.

[ElNono]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/15/top-dem-dumbfounded-extremism-report/

Top Dem 'dumbfounded' by 'extremism' report

By Audrey Hudson | Wednesday, April 15, 2009
The Washington Times

The top House Democrat overseeing the Department of Homeland Security is demanding that officials there explain how and why they wrote and released a controversial report identifying veterans as potential terrorist threats.

Rep. Bennie G. Thompson of Mississippi, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said in a letter to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano that he was "dumbfounded" such a report would be issued.

"This report appears to raise significant issues involving the privacy and civil liberties of many Americans -- including war veterans," Mr. Thompson said in the letter sent Tuesday.

"As I am certain you agree, freedom of association and freedom of speech are guaranteed to all Americans -- whether a person's beliefs, whatever their political orientation, are 'extremist' or not," Mr. Thompson said.

The report "blurred the line," and Mr. Thompson said he is "disappointed and surprised that the department would allow this report to be disseminated" to law enforcement officials nationwide.

Also Wednesday, Ms. Napolitano issued a statement standing by the report, which she personally had reviewed before it was issued. She insisted that DHS never would investigate based on political ideology and agreed to meet the head of the American Legion, who already had expressed anger over the report.

The Washington Times reported Tuesday that the department's Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) released a report titled Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment on April 7. It identified as potential terrorist threats people who collect guns, veterans, supporters of border control, and pro-life advocates.

"I am particularly struck by the report's conclusion which states that I&A 'will be working with its state and local partners over the next several months to ascertain with greater regional specificity the rise in rightwing extremist activity in the United States with a particular emphasis on the political, economic, and social factors that drive rightwing extremist radicalization,'" Mr. Thompson said, demanding to know what types of activities DHS had planned for "the next several months."

I'm trying to find a similar article from Republicans questioning the torture practices during the previous administration, but I can't seem to find one.

[RandomGuy]

Not to mention that veterans of our armed forces who have seen combat action in service to their country were also slandered by that report.

No, they weren't. GMAFB.

[RandomGuy]

Right.

A small percentage joined extremist right wing groups in the past, so we should pretend it never happened.

The report says only that combat veterans were prized recruitment targets for violent groups because of their training and expertise with weapons.

I don't see how that is slander.

[Marcus Bryant]

No, they weren't. GMAFB.

Sure they were.

[Marcus Bryant]

Right.

A small percentage joined extremist right wing groups in the past, so we should pretend it never happened.

Then perhaps it should have been so described.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm trying to find a similar article from Republicans questioning the torture practices during the previous administration, but I can't seem to find one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10480690/

Bush accepts Sen. McCain’s torture policy
President now agrees with pact banning cruelty against terror suspects

[Oh, Gee!!]

Then the DHS bureaucrat who authored the advisory might think about sticking to those actual groups with a history of violence, right or left, and leave the rest of the citizenry who merely are exercising their 1st amendment rights (some in favor of another part of the Bill of Rights) out of it.

I don't know; I got the feeling when reading it that it was mainly about hate groups and seperatists groups. It's not unreasonable to question whether they may use the current political climate to attract new members to their ranks. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that we should keep an eye on those groups--so long as we do so within the bounds of the law.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't know; I got the feeling when reading it that it was mainly about hate groups and seperatists groups. It's not unreasonable to question whether they may use the current political climate to attract new members to their ranks. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that we should keep an eye on those groups--so long as we do so within the bounds of the law.

I think the report was poorly written and should not have been released, which I am glad to see the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee believes as well. I don't have a problem with the feds pointing out that those groups with a history of violence might take advantage of the current political environment.

[ChumpDumper]

Then perhaps it should have been so described.That's exactly what they said.

Small percentage.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

LOLOL

This is exactly why people like me consider republicans to be total scumfucking assholes that need to be beaten off their high horse with a jagged oxidized machete. You fuckers seed self-fulfilling prophecies, then try to hitch an upward political swing-ride on the prophecies' pratfalls.
Fuck all of you. I think abortion should be mandatory and am moderately pro immigration. I have nothing to fear. Does that make me a better american than you pompous fuckfaces now?

How you like them apples?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BUSH. ORDERED. THIS. REPORT.

Seriously, what is difficult to comprehend about this statement? What don't you guys get?

Bush asked for a report on possible future domestic terrorism. Obama's admin took it over and skewed it towards right wing hate.

What is so difficult to comprehend about this? I have a brother in law working in DoD and he even said this week that some liberal folks got to put the final spin on this report in the past three weeks and totally slanted it to the level you saw in the final report.

Fuck the left.

[RandomGuy]

Obama's admin took it over and skewed it towards right wing hate.

Please provide proof of this statement.

If you cannot, you are a moron.

Step up and back your bullshit.

[Cry Havoc]

Bush asked for a report on possible future domestic terrorism. Obama's admin took it over and skewed it towards right wing hate.

What is so difficult to comprehend about this? I have a brother in law working in DoD and he even said this week that some liberal folks got to put the final spin on this report in the past three weeks and totally slanted it to the level you saw in the final report.

Fuck the left.

Did you bother to note that, as this apparently needs to be stated once again:

THERE'S ANOTHER REPORT FOR LEFT-WING EXTREMISTS.

http://thegurglingcod.typepad.com/thegurglingcod/images/2008/02/12/the_more_you_know2.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Did you bother to note that, as this apparently needs to be stated once again:

THERE'S ANOTHER REPORT FOR LEFT-WING EXTREMISTS.

http://thegurglingcod.typepad.com/thegurglingcod/images/2008/02/12/the_more_you_know2.jpg


This product is one of a series of intelligence assessments published by the
Extremism and Radicalization Branch to facilitate a greater understanding of the
phenomenon of violent radicalization in the United States.

[RandomGuy]

(U//FOUO) Leftwing Extremists Likely to Increase Use of Cyber Attacks over the Coming Decade (http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/leftwing.pdf)

26 January 2009


(U//FOUO) This product is one of a series of intelligence assessments published
by the DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) Strategic Analysis Group
to facilitate a greater understanding of the emerging threats to the United States.

[RandomGuy]

I think the report was poorly written and should not have been released, which I am glad to see the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee believes as well. I don't have a problem with the feds pointing out that those groups with a history of violence might take advantage of the current political environment.


(U//FOUO) Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

Hmm. Doesn't sound like slander to me.

Let's go on to keep reading, and you can point out exactly what is slanderous.


(U) Disgruntled Military Veterans(U//FOUO) DHS/I&A assesses that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat. These skills and knowledge have the potential to boost the capabilities of extremists—including lone wolves or small terrorist cells—to carry out violence.

The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today.

— (U) After Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1990-1991, some returning military veterans—including Timothy McVeigh—joined or associated with rightwing
extremist groups.
— (U) A prominent civil rights organization reported in 2006 that “large numbers of potentially violent neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other white supremacists are now learning the art of warfare in the [U.S.] armed forces.”
— (U//LES) The FBI noted in a 2008 report on the white supremacist movement that some returning military veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have
joined extremist groups.

That is the entirety of what was said about veterans in this report.

I have now spoon-fed your dumb ass this, because I am reasonably sure that you didn't really read it.

Now that I have given you this, you can now show me exactly what statement supports your assertion of slander.

[Winehole23]

MB seems to have accepted the journalistic gloss and ignored the source material.

The basic technique of journalism is to substitute commentary for the sources. When bungled, journalistic coverage also substitutes its own meaning. *Truth* is the changeling (http://ninjawords.com/changeling) of the the press in the phase of tabloidization.

[RandomGuy]

MB seems to have accepted the journalistic gloss and ignored the source material.

The basic technique of journalism is to substitute commentary for the sources. When bungled, journalistic coverage also substitutes its own meaning. *Truth* is the changeling (http://ninjawords.com/changeling) of the the press in the phase of tabloidization.

That is what galls me most about the virulent right-wing posters in message boards.

I have been arguing politics on the internet for a decade, and the intellectual laziness of those on the right seems to be a very consistant theme, especially when it comes to critical thinking.

Not that the left doesn't commit that as well, but being intellectually lazy seems to be part of the very definition of being a right wing hack.

[Winehole23]

I would say intellectual laziness is typical of being a hack in general.

Underscoring your emphasis is of course the very real phenomenon of anti-intellectualism on the right. It's still au courant. Has been for a long time.

It is better understood as a pose and a style than as an ideology IMO: moral *authenticity* is well-paired with mental simplicity. As with everything, there are better and worse versions.

[Winehole23]

Hello Joe the Plumber?

[Winehole23]

Sarah Palin?

[Winehole23]

Gwb?

[Winehole23]

A war in which the weapons are words and the wounds punctures in the swim-bladder of self-esteem -- a kind of contest in which, the vanquished being unconscious of defeat, the victor is denied the reward of success.

[Marcus Bryant]

MB seems to have accepted the journalistic gloss and ignored the source material.


Sure. In lieu of time.

[Marcus Bryant]

I have now spoon-fed your dumb ass this

You are quite simply the cleverest of them all. A man for all seasons.

[Winehole23]

Sure. In lieu of time.It could happen to anybody.

[Winehole23]

Some people have real lives in meatspace that take precedence.

[Marcus Bryant]

It could happen to anybody.

And it does. Then again, this would be an example of the standard extremist mantra found on both ends of the ideological spectrum to 'don't trust the media.'

[Winehole23]

...

[Winehole23]

And it does. Then again, this would be an example of the standard extremist mantra found on both ends of the ideological spectrum to 'don't trust the media.'Well, verify for yourself if you possibly can. But yeah, totally cum grano salis.

[RandomGuy]

You are quite simply the cleverest of them all. A man for all seasons.

Translation:

"Why thank you, Random Guy, I can't really say how veterans were slandered by the report, because I did just accept what others told me to think about it at face value, because that is the way I roll."

No problem man, you're very welcome.

[RandomGuy]

I would say intellectual laziness is typical of being a hack in general.

Underscoring your emphasis is of course the very real phenomenon of anti-intellectualism on the right. It's still au courant. Has been for a long time.

It is better understood as a pose and a style than as an ideology IMO: moral *authenticity* is well-paired with mental simplicity. As with everything, there are better and worse versions.

Well put.

[Marcus Bryant]

because that is the way I roll



Sure, I roll like that when it's the political circle jerk of the week. You don't take these seriously, do you?

[Winehole23]

Sure, I roll like that when it's the political circle jerk of the week. You don't take these seriously, do you?As the thread progresses, the cookie in the middle emerges clearly.

It is an iron law of bulletin boards. There are always scapegoats.

[DarrinS]

LOLOL

This is exactly why people like me consider republicans to be total scumfucking assholes that need to be beaten off their high horse with a jagged oxidized machete. You fuckers seed self-fulfilling prophecies, then try to hitch an upward political swing-ride on the prophecies' pratfalls.
Fuck all of you. I think abortion should be mandatory and am moderately pro immigration. I have nothing to fear. Does that make me a better american than you pompous fuckfaces now?

How you like them apples?



I love when people go on ritalin-induced, Tourettes-like tantrums.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

As long as you aren't a KKK, neonazi, doctor's office bombing pro-lifer, or vigilante anti-immigrationist, you have nothing to fear. So what are you so afraid of? Are you guys hiding something?

[implacable44]

As long as you aren't a KKK, neonazi, doctor's office bombing pro-lifer, or vigilante anti-immigrationist, you have nothing to fear. So what are you so afraid of? Are you guys hiding something?

You might be the one with something to fear with all the violence and hate you foster. I do believe extremist groups exist on both sides and you and Ballijuana should be aware. -- wouldnt the mandate extend to black panthers, black liberation theology, late-term baby killers, and law breaking illegal immigrants ?

[Marcus Bryant]

You might be the one with something to fear with all the violence and hate you foster. I do believe extremist groups exist on both sides and you and Ballijuana should be aware. -- wouldnt the mandate extend to black panthers, black liberation theology, late-term baby killers, and law breaking illegal immigrants ?

*cough* Earth Liberation Front *cough*

[FaithInOne]

If this assembly of tens of thousands of "extremists" was the best America has to offer, America is in good shape.

The G20 protesters make Americans look like a 4th grade field trip to the zoo.

[Joe the plumber]

Hello Joe the Plumber?

It is the American way to take advantage of opportunity so :flipoff .

[smeagol]

I think abortion should be mandatory and am moderately pro immigration.

How you like them apples?

I'm absolutely pro immigration and totally against guns and abortion.

I think there are stupid people on the left and on the right.

[ChumpDumper]

If this assembly of tens of thousands of "extremists"This report was not about them.

Why are board Republicans so eager to label themselves and other conservatives violent extremists?

[Winehole23]

This report was not about them.

Why are board Republicans so eager to label themselves and other conservatives violent extremists?Guilty mindedness, I'm guessing.

Plus it aggrandizes their version of retail politics, while confirming their persecution mania.

[ChumpDumper]

Poor, oppressed wannabe violent extremists....

[balli]

This latest GOP seems, at first, more surreal than offensive. The notion that Obama is a socialist because he wants a minor tax increase for a tiny fraction of Americans and would prefer to spend our treasure on helping people rather than on conducting wars of dubious origin or intention is more than a little strange, but if a small minority of people want to assert it, that is well within their rights. Floating the idea of secession over this is a very different story. The history of secession in the US is not a pretty one. Those on the far right can't have it both ways, calling for revolution and secession on the one hand, while protesting a report raising concerns about right wing extremist violence on the other.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lincoln-mitchell/threats-of-secession-and_b_187652.html

[implacable44]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lincoln-mitchell/threats-of-secession-and_b_187652.html

This latest GOP seems, at first, more surreal than offensive. The notion that Obama is a socialist because he wants a minor tax increase for a tiny fraction of Americans and would prefer to spend our treasure on helping people rather than on conducting wars of dubious origin or intention is more than a little strange, but if a small minority of people want to assert it, that is well within their rights. Floating the idea of secession over this is a very different story. The history of secession in the US is not a pretty one. Those on the far right can't have it both ways, calling for revolution and secession on the one hand, while protesting a report raising concerns about right wing extremist violence on the other.

Wow- I am amazed at the notion - the belief - the ignorance that you and libtards think a "minor tax increase for a tiny fraction of Americans" is what is coming ? You think a minor tax increase will pay for this trillions of dollars our President is spending ? Wow -- I sit back and patiently await the WAKE-UP call for those lazy minded - blind liberals who voted him in. This will be a fun ride.

[JoeChalupa]

Blind conservatives never woke up and we went on one bumpy ride.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, we never raised taxes all that massively to pay off the previous 60 years of deficit spending.

[implacable44]

Eh, we never raised taxes all that massively to pay off the previous 60 years of deficit spending.

eh - we never spent trillions - printed all this money out of thin air -- ECOCOMICS 101 sir... We never dealt with Cap and Trade.... never contemplated abandoning the dollar for internation currency..

This is going to be fun...I hope most of you are just talking out your butt and in secret really preparing for what is to come....

[ChumpDumper]

eh - we never spent trillions - printed all this money out of thin airSure we did.

For decades.

Feigning indignance about the debt now just because your party is out of power is pretty silly.

[clambake]

what is to come?

[Marcus Bryant]

When China and Japan cut back on buying our paper then we'll have to figure it out. It's not going to happen internally. We need to be forced to get our financial house in order. Even then, we'll be charging ourselves to the hilt when we can.

[DarkReign]

eh - we never spent trillions - printed all this money out of thin air -- ECOCOMICS 101 sir... We never dealt with Cap and Trade.... never contemplated abandoning the dollar for internation currency..

This is going to be fun...I hope most of you are just talking out your butt and in secret really preparing for what is to come....

CD answered it more succinctly than I ever could.

Look at our national debt at the end of the Carter Administration. Then watch it rise, rise, rise...

and rise, rise, rise, rise even more and more.

It never ends, bro. The letter designation at the end of some slick-dick politician has zero bearing on deficit spending.

It took Obama being elected and promising our great-grandchildren's money to us for you to realize this?

Man, what hole did you climb out of this decade?

[DarkReign]

what is to come?

Federal bankruptcy. Although I admittedly have little knowledge of what exactly that means for every average American, I could point to the fall of the USSR as an indicator.

Only moreso because if the US falls, lots of others come with us. You dont just replace the world's largest consumer market over night.

[Marcus Bryant]

It never ends, bro. The letter designation at the end of some slick-dick politician has zero bearing on deficit spending.

Indeed. Though the citizenry still pretends it does.

[clambake]

thats why it won't fall.

[DarkReign]

thats why it won't fall.

Dont be so sure, mon ami. Maybe not in our life time, I'll concede that as unlikely.

But all empires fall. ALL.

[clambake]

Dont be so sure, mon ami. Maybe not in our life time, I'll concede that as unlikely.

But all empires fall. ALL.

true........but how would that benefit the world?

and who's going to roll over on us?

some have suggested china and/or japan. for what benefit would be gained?

[Cry Havoc]

thats why it won't fall.

Because you think it can't? Because it's hard to imagine America in the poorhouse?

This is the same kind of logic that allowed Katrina to devastate New Orleans. "Oh, it's not gonna happen. It just won't. It can't." Even as the hurricane hit the city, and meteorologists were pulling their hair out and looking on in horror, I distinctly remember a report early that morning (I was having my car repaired so I was up) about the newscasters saying how the damage has been contained and the city was safe. The news stations, as Jon Stewart pointed out, could have done a lot of honest reporting to make this situation much more apparent. But the news (cnn, msnbc, fox, all of them) seem to only exist to scare the American public about things like violent black men, how whitey will no longer be the majority in 2050, and the latest virus or bird freaking flu that's going around, rather than concentrating on things that actually matter. It reeks of a massive shunt-job, and I really wish we'd see some people holding, "throw CEO x out the window of a 40 story building" parties rather than "tea" parties.

The reality is that unless something is done to completely curtail the kind of corporate greed that results in 35 to 1 leverages, nothing is going to change. The big business will just find new ways to hose the American consumer. The only alternative I see to it is either finding some way to hold CEOs and corporate execs accountable (and by accountable, I mean if you steal, extort, or launder, you go to JAIL), or by a revolution by the masses, violently if necessary.

The problem with American government is that American business (predictably) has become smarter, bigger, and able to skirt the confines of the law beyond anything that should be possible. They hire lawyers to find every little loophole in the system. They negotiate in the grey area of the law. Pepsi paid ZERO dollars in taxes in the year 2000. Consider that for a moment.

They will continue to do this as long as they stand to profit from it financially with little chance of being caught and/or punished.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.

[clambake]

Because you think it can't? Because it's hard to imagine America in the poorhouse?

This is the same kind of logic that allowed Katrina to devastate New Orleans. "Oh, it's not gonna happen. It just won't. It can't." Even as the hurricane hit the city, and meteorologists were pulling their hair out and looking on in horror, I distinctly remember a report early that morning (I was having my car repaired so I was up) about the newscasters saying how the damage has been contained and the city was safe. The news stations, as Jon Stewart pointed out, could have done a lot of honest reporting to make this situation much more apparent. But the news (cnn, msnbc, fox, all of them) seem to only exist to scare the American public about things like violent black men, how whitey will no longer be the majority in 2050, and the latest virus or bird freaking flu that's going around, rather than concentrating on things that actually matter. It reeks of a massive shunt-job, and I really wish we'd see some people holding, "throw CEO x out the window of a 40 story building" parties rather than "tea" parties.

The reality is that unless something is done to completely curtail the kind of corporate greed that results in 35 to 1 leverages, nothing is going to change. The big business will just find new ways to hose the American consumer. The only alternative I see to it is either finding some way to hold CEOs and corporate execs accountable (and by accountable, I mean if you steal, extort, or launder, you go to JAIL), or by a revolution by the masses, violently if necessary.

The problem with American government is that American business (predictably) has become smarter, bigger, and able to skirt the confines of the law beyond anything that should be possible. They hire lawyers to find every little loophole in the system. They negotiate in the grey area of the law. Pepsi paid ZERO dollars in taxes in the year 2000. Consider that for a moment.

They will continue to do this as long as they stand to profit from it financially with little chance of being caught and/or punished.

the mega wealthy didn't give a shit about new orleans then or now.

i agree with almost everything else you said.

[Cry Havoc]

Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.

Don't kid yourself. This isn't an American problem. It only happened here because we were the first country that attained this kind of economic power, enough to create a massive group of people that do nothing but push money around and make millions, billions in the process. I guarantee that this would have happened in some form or fashion in any country. Japan had several economic meltdowns in the 90s, the Soviet Union had it's falling out, and the list goes on.

[Winehole23]

Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.Socialism!

[Winehole23]

I guarantee that this would have happened in some form or fashion in any country. Japan had several economic meltdowns in the 90s, the Soviet Union had it's falling out, and the list goes on.This is why people are calling us a banana republic. Yes we're the biggest in the world, but we're acting just like one.

To put a somewhat finer point on it: this is our Weimar moment.

[Marcus Bryant]

Socialism!

Wha? That's just good ol' fashioned American free enterprise.

[Winehole23]

The reality is that unless something is done to completely curtail the kind of corporate greed that results in 35 to 1 leverages, nothing is going to change.Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fbaff18c-23d2-11de-996a-00144feabdc0.html)

By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00



1. What is fragile should break early while it is still small . Nothing should ever become too big to fail. Evolution in economic life helps those with the maximum amount of hidden risks - and hence the most fragile - become the biggest.


2. No socialisation of losses and privatisation of gains . Whatever may need to be bailed out should be nationalised; whatever does not need a bail-out should be free, small and risk-bearing. We have managed to combine the worst of capitalism and socialism. In France in the 1980s, the socialists took over the banks. In the US in the 2000s, the banks took over the government. This is surreal.


3. People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus . The economics establishment (universities, regulators, central bankers, government officials, various organisations staffed with economists) lost its legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean.


4. Do not let someone making an "incentive" bonus manage a nuclear plant - or your financial risks . Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show "profits" while claiming to be "conservative". Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards.


5. Counter-balance complexity with simplicity . Complexity from globalisation and highly networked economic life needs to be countered by simplicity in financial products. The complex economy is already a form of leverage: the leverage of efficiency. Such systems survive thanks to slack and redundancy; adding debt produces wild and dangerous gyrations and leaves no room for error. Capitalism cannot avoid fads and bubbles: equity bubbles (as in 2000) have proved to be mild; debt bubbles are vicious.


6. Do not give children sticks of dynamite, even if they come with a warning . Complex derivatives need to be banned because nobody understands them and few are rational enough to know it. Citizens must be protected from themselves, from bankers selling them "hedging" products, and from gullible regulators who listen to economic theorists.


7. Only Ponzi schemes should depend on confidence. Governments should never need to "restore confidence". Cascading rumours are a product of complex systems. Governments cannot stop the rumours. Simply, we need to be in a position to shrug off rumours, be robust in the face of them.


8. Do not give an addict more drugs if he has withdrawal pains . Using leverage to cure the problems of too much leverage is not homeopathy, it is denial. The debt crisis is not a temporary problem, it is a structural one. We need rehab.


9. Citizens should not depend on financial assets or fallible "expert" advice for their retirement . Economic life should be definancialised. We should learn not to use markets as storehouses of value: they do not harbour the certainties that normal citizens require.Citizens should experience anxiety about their own businesses (which they control), not their investments (which they do not control).


10. Make an omelette with the broken eggs . Finally, this crisis cannot be fixed with makeshift repairs, no more than a boat with a rotten hull can be fixed with ad hoc patches. We need to rebuild the hull with new (stronger) materials; we will have to remake the system before it does so itself. Let us move voluntarily into Capitalism 2.0 by helping what needs to be broken break on its own, converting debt into equity, marginalising the economics and business school establishments, shutting down the "Nobel" in economics, banning leveraged buy-outs, putting bankers where they belong, clawing back the bonuses of those who got us here, and teaching people to navigate a world with fewer certainties.


Then we will see an economic life closer to our biological environment: smaller companies, richer ecology, no leverage. A world in which entrepreneurs, not bankers, take the risks and companies are born and die every day without making the news.


In other words, a place more resistant to black swans.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fbaff18c-23d2-11de-996a-00144feabdc0.html)

By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00



I have Fooled By Randomness on the shelf. Haven't gotten around to reading it. In it or The Black Swan he is supposed to be insufferable. Maybe he is in both works.

You might find The Origin of Financial Crises (http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Financial-Crises-Central-Efficient/dp/0307473457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239933763&sr=8-1) interesting as it relates to what changes in monetary policy might be made.

[Winehole23]

In a 2006 conference Taleb was characterized as anti-free trade for describing defaults that have by now come to pass. I sort of see him as a EF Schumpeter communitarian type, small is beautiful and all that.

[Wild Cobra]

I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Portland%20Tea%20Party%202009/IMGP0220-1.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Portland%20Tea%20Party%202009/IMGP0322-1.jpg

[Cry Havoc]

Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fbaff18c-23d2-11de-996a-00144feabdc0.html)

By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00



1. What is fragile should break early while it is still small . Nothing should ever become too big to fail. Evolution in economic life helps those with the maximum amount of hidden risks - and hence the most fragile - become the biggest.


2. No socialisation of losses and privatisation of gains . Whatever may need to be bailed out should be nationalised; whatever does not need a bail-out should be free, small and risk-bearing. We have managed to combine the worst of capitalism and socialism. In France in the 1980s, the socialists took over the banks. In the US in the 2000s, the banks took over the government. This is surreal.


3. People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus . The economics establishment (universities, regulators, central bankers, government officials, various organisations staffed with economists) lost its legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean.


4. Do not let someone making an "incentive" bonus manage a nuclear plant - or your financial risks . Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show "profits" while claiming to be "conservative". Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards.


5. Counter-balance complexity with simplicity . Complexity from globalisation and highly networked economic life needs to be countered by simplicity in financial products. The complex economy is already a form of leverage: the leverage of efficiency. Such systems survive thanks to slack and redundancy; adding debt produces wild and dangerous gyrations and leaves no room for error. Capitalism cannot avoid fads and bubbles: equity bubbles (as in 2000) have proved to be mild; debt bubbles are vicious.


6. Do not give children sticks of dynamite, even if they come with a warning . Complex derivatives need to be banned because nobody understands them and few are rational enough to know it. Citizens must be protected from themselves, from bankers selling them "hedging" products, and from gullible regulators who listen to economic theorists.


7. Only Ponzi schemes should depend on confidence. Governments should never need to "restore confidence". Cascading rumours are a product of complex systems. Governments cannot stop the rumours. Simply, we need to be in a position to shrug off rumours, be robust in the face of them.


8. Do not give an addict more drugs if he has withdrawal pains . Using leverage to cure the problems of too much leverage is not homeopathy, it is denial. The debt crisis is not a temporary problem, it is a structural one. We need rehab.


9. Citizens should not depend on financial assets or fallible "expert" advice for their retirement . Economic life should be definancialised. We should learn not to use markets as storehouses of value: they do not harbour the certainties that normal citizens require.Citizens should experience anxiety about their own businesses (which they control), not their investments (which they do not control).


10. Make an omelette with the broken eggs . Finally, this crisis cannot be fixed with makeshift repairs, no more than a boat with a rotten hull can be fixed with ad hoc patches. We need to rebuild the hull with new (stronger) materials; we will have to remake the system before it does so itself. Let us move voluntarily into Capitalism 2.0 by helping what needs to be broken break on its own, converting debt into equity, marginalising the economics and business school establishments, shutting down the "Nobel" in economics, banning leveraged buy-outs, putting bankers where they belong, clawing back the bonuses of those who got us here, and teaching people to navigate a world with fewer certainties.


Then we will see an economic life closer to our biological environment: smaller companies, richer ecology, no leverage. A world in which entrepreneurs, not bankers, take the risks and companies are born and die every day without making the news.


In other words, a place more resistant to black swans.

I dream of that day. I fear it will never come.

[Wild Cobra]

These guys will definately be on the new watch list:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Portland%20Tea%20Party%202009/IMGP0164-1.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Portland%20Tea%20Party%202009/IMGP0204-1.jpg

[hope4dopes]

Where were you cobra? Looks like a good group.

It's mindboggeling the goverments Orwellian manipulation of speech to manufacture consent, to contol thought. Islamic terrorists must now be called man made catastrophes.Political oppenents are now called radical extremists...There is however a nasty rumor I'd like to quell.The obama adminsitration does not I repeat does not want to change the term "Christian" to "InfIdel"........until after the mid-term elections.

[PixelPusher]

I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:


Yeah, I get a kick out some of these signs too:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/1398/slide_1398_20093_large.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/1398/slide_1398_20115_large.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/1398/slide_1398_20069_large.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/1398/slide_1398_20075_large.jpg

Now that's how a minority party goes about winning back the hearts and minds of the rest of America.

[ChumpDumper]

I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:They don't have a list for dumbasses who can't read.

[Crookshanks]

They don't have a list for dumbasses who can't read.
Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!
:downspin:

[Cry Havoc]

Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!
:downspin:

I have a much higher IQ and SAT score than Bush. Just thought I'd share that.

[Jacob1983]

A lot of people have higher IQs and SAT scores than Bush.

[tim_duncan_fan]

The Republicans are idiots. It is just a matter of time before the stupid sheep follow their bigoted leaders and cause another civil war. And look for more uneducated white guys to go on gun rages due to Obama's "socialism."

What's funny is that these dumbasses don't even know what socialism is. It's just a buzzword that Rush Limbaugh uses to scare the retarded in-breds. Rush Limbaugh's show starts and the next thing you know these people are ready to kill somebody.

All this nonsense because there is a black dude in the white house...

[ChumpDumper]

Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!
:downspin:Then how did they know who to vote for and win?

[George Gervin's Afro]

All this butt hurt from conservatives. It makes my day!

:lmao

[DarrinS]

The Republicans are idiots. It is just a matter of time before the stupid sheep follow their bigoted leaders and cause another civil war. And look for more uneducated white guys to go on gun rages due to Obama's "socialism."

What's funny is that these dumbasses don't even know what socialism is. It's just a buzzword that Rush Limbaugh uses to scare the retarded in-breds. Rush Limbaugh's show starts and the next thing you know these people are ready to kill somebody.

All this nonsense because there is a black dude in the white house...



Actually, there is a shift in this country, mostly among younger people, towards socialism. Only 53% of people in a recent Rasmussen poll prefer capitalism.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

[George Gervin's Afro]

Actually, there is a shift in this country, mostly among younger people, towards socialism. Only 53% of people in a recent Rasmussen poll prefer capitalism.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

This whole socialist schtick is getting old. This has become a scare tactic by the dead enders..I thought they didn't like scare tactics... They supported sacre tactics to get into the Iraq war and now are criticizing Obama for using them to pass his stimulus package. Conservatives are now using socialism as a scare tactic.... I am still trying to figure out if conservatives are for or against scare tactics..

Will any of you answer this?

[smeagol]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Portland%20Tea%20Party%202009/IMGP0204-1.jpg


The National Debt is Obama's fault. Republicans never ran a defecit.

Ok . . .

[DarrinS]

This whole socialist schtick is getting old. This has become a scare tactic by the dead enders..I thought they didn't like scare tactics... They supported sacre tactics to get into the Iraq war and now are criticizing Obama for using them to pass his stimulus package. Conservatives are now using socialism as a scare tactic.... I am still trying to figure out if conservatives are for or against scare tactics..

Will any of you answer this?



The govt is taking over large portions of the financial sector and this admin wants to regulate our energy use and create a system of socialized medicine. Is it really that far-fetched?