Spurs notebook: Ginobili will be eased back in

[Kori Ellis]

Spurs notebook: Ginobili will be eased back in
Web Posted: 03/19/2005 12:00 AM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA031905.7C.BKNspurs.notebook.1505e64bd.html

The Spurs think Manu Ginobili will probably play at some point during the team's three-game road trip.

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich wouldn't rule out the chance of Ginobili playing Sunday against Detroit. The team also plays at New York on Monday and at Indiana on Wednesday.

Ginobili has missed the past five games because of a groin strain. After working out Thursday, he showed up at Friday morning's shootaround feeling fine.

"He's visibly getting itchy," Popovich said. "He's looking at me with that plaintive look in his eyes."

Popovich is considering using Ginobili off the bench to slowly work him up to his 30-minute average.

Welcome back: The Coyote returned from his quarter-long sabbatical Friday evening.

After becoming just the third mascot in NBA history to be ejected from a game Wednesday, the Coyote made his return midway through the first quarter. The fans cheered him, though not noticeably more than they usually do.

The Spurs' mascot didn't make light of his ejection in any of his skits.

Spurs officials have yet to be contacted by the league regarding the incident.

On your mark: Brent Barry and his wife Erin are helping host the Spurs' first 5K run/walk at 9 a.m. March 26 at the SBC Center. A portion of each $25 registration fee ($30 after Monday) will be donated to the Blue Ribbon Child Abuse Task Force.

Registration forms can be obtained through the team's Web site (spurs.com) and at Ashley Furniture HomeStore. Each paid registration receives a ticket to an upcoming Spurs' home game.

Alexander finds way back to S.A.: Cory Alexander was just about halfway through the 1997-98 season with the Spurs when Popovich, then doubling as general manager, called him into his office to tell him he was waiving him.

"He compared me to Avery (Johnson)," said Alexander, who played eight minutes for the Bobcats Friday night. "Avery had all those struggles to get into the NBA, and Pop told me I'd never had any turmoil; never had to go through any fire to play in the league. He reminded me I came out of college a first-round pick and all that.

"Well, I've definitely seen the other side now."

After being picked up by the Denver Nuggets when the Spurs waived him in 1998, he played in Denver for two more seasons before being traded to Orlando in 2000. Alexander played in the National Basketball Development League from 2001-03, in the Italian League in 2003-04, and played with the NBDL's Roanoke, Va., Dazzle this season.

On Feb. 28 the Bobcats signed him for the remainder of the season.

[timvp]

Popovich is considering using Ginobili off the bench to slowly work him up to his 30-minute average.

Apology Accepted.

Damn, timvp is good.

:smokin

[exstatic]

Ghost-lite
:lmao
Where's that damn kluby-matic?

[MannyIsGod]

I think this will work. Especially if Barry can start hitting a few jumpers with the first unit.

All in All, I want more Manu in the 4th when it counts instead of at the begining of the game and the half.

[timvp]

Manu works best off the bench. timvp knows this. Pop knows this. He'll work him in for a few games and will make the switch because Barry will be playing well as a starter.

With Manu only able to play 30 minutes per contest, you don't want to waste half of those minutes starting each half. It doesn't make sense.

We know this.

[Kori Ellis]

Off topic, but not all the way off topic ...

Did you see the headband Manu was sporting at shootaround today ...

http://www.woai.com/mediacenter/?videoId=95222,565

:lmao

[GoSpurs21]

Barry is pathetic whether he starts or plays reserve minutes. If Glover continues to impress Pop, Brent will become just another HITA.

[Nikos]

Pop can say what he wants, but with Manu hurt of course he is going to coddle him back into the lineup. Doesn't mean he is more effective off the bench. Tim Duncan is barely playing 35mpg, you really think Manu is going to play 35mpg with the way the Spurs have played all year? It's not exactly a revelation that Pop wants to play him his NORMAL set of minutes that he has been getting all season.

I do not understand why you think he would be 'better' off the bench? 30 minutes is 30 minutes. As long as he finishes the game, isn't it all the same?

I also don't understand your request for an apology. I still feel Manu has to play more than 30 minutes in the playoffs for this team to maximize its potential. There is no gauruntee that playing him in second ends of quarters will yield any more success. To me its pointless to bench him going into the playoffs. I rather play him 32-34mpg than 26-28mpg in the playoffs, expecting that he will be a 4th quarter superman is wishful thinking.

Go with your best players, don't start platooning your wingmen because you think Manu can give great 'energy'. Benching him going into the playoffs serves no purpose and might actually make him play more reckless than when Hedo replaced him last season (not effective energy, but careless even for Manu).

[BronxCowboy]

^^^
Agreed. TimVP, how the hell does that fact that he's working back in gradually from an injury mean that he performs better off the bench?? Where the hell have you been all season? Very disappointed in your take, timvp. You can do better than that. :nope

[smeagol]

Agreed with Nikos and BC. Not sure how timvp can conclude that Manu will come of the bench for the rest of the season just because of what Pop said.

If Manu is coming of the bench come playoff time, then I will give your props.

[Ginofan]

Manu works best off the bench. timvp knows this. Pop knows this. He'll work him in for a few games and will make the switch because Barry will be playing well as a starter.

With Manu only able to play 30 minutes per contest, you don't want to waste half of those minutes starting each half. It doesn't make sense.

We know this.

No way does Manu make a permanent switch to the bench. 30 minutes is 30 minutes right? How is he better off the bench then? Barry HAS been playing as a starter and is still sucking where it counts most. I don't see that changing right now. Wasting minutes? LMAO Manu wastes minutes, that's the biggest joke I've ever heard.

[td4mvp21]

I wouldn't put him on the bench for good. He does well as a starter and still brings a lot of energy. IT may cause Manu to be unhappy if he comes off the bench just because hes proven himself a starter so many times this year. Hes actualluy consistent in points scored.

[ducks]

manu said on his site last year he was a little disappointed he did not start but was willign to come off the bench because pop wanted his energy off the bench
Manu is a team player

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not advocating bringing Manu off the bench for the rest of the season. But if he comes back very slowly from the injuries, Pop might just do it because he wouldn't want to make another switch again that late.

You can't argue that Barry's numbers/percentages as a starter have improved. Perhaps Pop will think since he KNOWS Manu can produce off the bench and now Barry is producing as starter, he may just choose to keep it that way (ala Hedo). It doesn't mean that Manu won't finish games or get the majority of the minutes.

I don't think it play out this way, but who knows?!

Barry's numbers as a starter ..

MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
6 32.8 4.8-9.3 .518 1.8-4.3 .423 0.8-1.2 .714 0.33 0.33 1.0 2.3 0.7 4.0 4.7 4.0 12.3

[smeagol]

Kori, although Manu has said he would come off the bench if Pop asks him to, he has also said that he prefers to starts (like 99.9% of the players in the NBA).

I understand Pop trying to bring Manu slowly after his injury, therefore limiting his minutes and bringing him off the bench. But come playoff time, I expect Manu to be starting.

[ChumpDumper]

A Brent Barry welfare plan?

Not without precedent.

[Dex]

If Manu goes back to the bench, we won't get that 3-second bucket that he goes for every time he ends up with the tip-off. :blah

[timvp]

I do not understand why you think he would be 'better' off the bench? 30 minutes is 30 minutes. As long as he finishes the game, isn't it all the same?

30 minutes is not 30 minutes. Pop plays with the strategy that the end of the quarters are the most important parts of the game. Wasting almost half of Manu's minutes in the start of the game and after halftime doesn't make sense. You want Manu for the meat of the game. When the Spurs start each half, Barry won't be much better or worse than Manu. At that point, both teams are feeling each other out, anyways.


I also don't understand your request for an apology.

I said that Manu should come off the bench. The word "bench" evoked all sorts of hatred my way. Numerous Manu Defenders said he'd never come off the bench.

Now he is.


I still feel Manu has to play more than 30 minutes in the playoffs for this team to maximize its potential.

Agreed. But no more than 34.


Go with your best players, don't start platooning your wingmen because you think Manu can give great 'energy'.

Manu can give you great "play" as a starter or a bench player. He's done it before.


Benching him going into the playoffs serves no purpose.

The term "benching" is what bothers the Manu Defenders. Think of it as better team utilization. It's not a demotion. It's just a better way to use the roster.

Believe me. Manu's an All-Star, he knows he belongs in the league. If Pop goes up to him and says he's coming off the bench from now on, he's going to be initially saddened but as soon as the game tips off, the only people who are going to hold a grudge against Pop will be the Manu Defenders.

[timvp]

30 minutes is 30 minutes right? How is he better off the bench then?

Read above.


Wasting minutes? LMAO Manu wastes minutes, that's the biggest joke I've ever heard.

:wtf

You must not have comprehended what I said. I said that Manu's 30 minutes per game are wasted if almost half of those minutes come at the beginning of the game and after halftime. I never said Manu wastes minutes.

[timvp]

^^^
Agreed. TimVP, how the hell does that fact that he's working back in gradually from an injury mean that he performs better off the bench?? Where the hell have you been all season? Very disappointed in your take, timvp. You can do better than that. :nope

I'm usually right in guessing what Pop is going to do. Ask around or look take a look at the classic threads.

[Nikos]

I just do not know if it is worth a try at this point. I did not support it with Hedo last season, because he was coddled into the starting role. And it ended up doing nothing for the team in the playoffs, because Hedo played poorly.

I do not think I want Barry being coddled either. I don't care if Manu is benched for a few games, but I rather not have it that way for the playoffs. It's natural to feel a bit slighted as a player, even if you know your an all star and will finish the game. The title in reality does mean something, even to Manu despite what he says or the fact that he might play well anyway.

I think Barry just has to earn his place on the team. Being given a starting role sounds interesting in theory, but if Barry can't adjust after all this time -- just think about how he is going to adjust in the playoffs? He has to figure it out for himself, not simply be given a starting role. I rather him learn to play well off the bench and force Pop to play him at the end of games.

I have been pleased with Barry at the end of games when they are close. He has hit some big shots in a few games. But so did Hedo last season, in the REGULAR season.

Hopefully Barry can start playing well off the bench. He has to earn it to grow as a player in this system. And Manu has to suck it up and be effective in 32-33mpg or so in the playoffs.

I just do not like the idea of benching Manu at this point. It did not work with Hedo, and I am not sure doing it with Barry will make a difference.

[GerM]

Manu is just benched because he is off an injury. He will be back as a starter soon enough I am sure. So, timvp, you won´t be right unless manu is not starting in the playoffs. I suggest you wait a little before making such statements, you can´t assure anything just because of one game he comes off an injury, and where it is known that pop wants him rested for the playoffs.

[boutons]

This "easing in" approach is worrying.

If his groin strain not healed, he needs to take it easy completely until 100%. Putting him in not fully healed and expecting him to take it easy is stupid (he won't). and one all-out leg movement risks hurting it again.

If he's ok, he starts.

[Kori Ellis]

Manu is just benched because he is off an injury. He will be back as a starter soon enough I am sure. So, timvp, you won´t be right unless manu is not starting in the playoffs. I suggest you wait a little before making such statements, you can´t assure anything just because of one game he comes off an injury, and where it is known that pop wants him rested for the playoffs.

:wtf

timvp said this:

Odds are, Manu will start in the playoffs.

[Ginofan]

You must not have comprehended what I said. I said that Manu's 30 minutes per game are wasted if almost half of those minutes come at the beginning of the game and after halftime. I never said Manu wastes minutes.

How are minutes wasted though? There's still scoring and tangibles going on...I really don't understand your theory on this.



Barry's numbers as a starter ..

MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
6 32.8 4.8-9.3 .518 1.8-4.3 .423 0.8-1.2 .714 0.33 0.33 1.0 2.3 0.7 4.0 4.7 4.0 12.3


Actually Kori, Barry has started 7 games (Dec.30, Jan.17, Mar.9, Mar.12, Mar.14, Mar.16, Mar.18)

His numbers are as follows (if I calculated right...lol)
Minutes: 32.3
FGM-A: 31-61 (.508)
3PM-A: 11-28 (.393)
FTM-A: 7-9 (.778)
Rebounds: 4.1
Assists: 4
Turnovers: 1.1
Points: 11.4

I'm working on figuring the stats on his non-starting numbers...

[ChumpDumper]

Just go here:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/brent_barry/season_splits.html

Good work, though.

[picnroll]

From a time management standpoint it doesn't make sense not to start Manu. You start the game with Manu on the bench it will limit the number of well rested minutes he can play in the game as opposed to letting him start, get a rest then get back in.

[timvp]

How are minutes wasted though? There's still scoring and tangibles going on...I really don't understand your theory on this.

Some points of the game are more important than others. You'd rather have a player on your team who averaged ten points in the fourth than a player who averaged ten points in the first, right?

[Ginofan]

Just go here:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/brent_barry/season_splits.html

Good work, though.

D'oh! Don't I feel stupid :lol Thanks so much though!

Okay so taking those stats, break them down by minute:

STARTING
PPG: 11.4
APG: 4.0
RPG: 4.1

BENCH
PPG: 10.4
APG: 3.4
RPG: 3.0

There's a difference but I don't believe it's such a huuuuge difference. Just my opinion though.

[Kori Ellis]

Sorry, I just pulled it off his splits at ESPN.com. I guess they weren't updated.

[Ginofan]

Some points of the game are more important than others. You'd rather have a player on your team who averaged ten points in the fourth than a player who averaged ten points in the first, right?

Well you're going to need those 10 points regardless of when they are scored right?

[Kori Ellis]

Ginofan -- look at Barry's PERCENTAGES as a starter vs a sub -- that was my point. He shoots 10% higher from the field and 6% higher on 3's as a starter. That's HUGE.

[timvp]

From a time management standpoint it doesn't make sense not to start Manu. You start the game with Manu on the bench it will limit the number of well rested minutes he can play in the game as opposed to letting him start, get a rest then get back in.

How Manu gets his 30 minutes as a starter:

FIRST QUARTER AND THIRD QUARTER
Tip until six minutes to go -- Six Minutes
Return with two minutes to go -- Two Minutes

SECOND QUARTER AND FOURTH QUARTER
Start until ten minutes to go -- Two Minutes
Return with five minutes to go -- Five Minutes



How Manu would get his 30 minutes as a bench player:

FIRST QUARTER AND THIRD QUARTER
Enter and play the rest of the way at the six minute mark -- Six Minutes

SECOND QUARTER AND FOURTH QUARTER
Start until ten minutes to go -- Two Minutes
Return with seven minutes to go -- Seven Minutes










I think the second option is a lot more simple and he plays more important minutes. Plus he gets extra rest at the start of the game and after halftime.

[timvp]

Well you're going to need those 10 points regardless of when they are scored right?

I guess if you are just looking at it mathematically. But shots in the fourth quarter are more important than shots in the first quarter. It's how the game works.

Superstars and championships are made in the fourth quarter.

[picnroll]

Extra rest at the start????? After he's stretched, warmed up and then come into the game off the bench cold and stiff? That's not to good for Manu's style. Neither is playing 18 minutes straight to end the first half.

[Kori Ellis]

Neither is playing 18 minutes straight to end the first half.

Re-read it.

[timvp]

Extra rest at the start????? After he's stretched, warmed up and then come into the game off the bench cold and stiff? That's not to good for Manu's style.

It didn't seem to bother him in the championship season or last year. Look at his numbers versus the Lakers last season.


Neither is playing 18 minutes straight to end the first half.

That's not what it says. He gets a three minute break in the second and fourth quarters -- close to what he gets now and around the same as he got in past seasons.

[Ginofan]

I guess if you are just looking at it mathematically. But shots in the fourth quarter are more important than shots in the first quarter. It's how the game works.

Superstars and championships are made in the fourth quarter.


Yeah I agree with that...the 4th is the most important quarter of the game, but I also have to believe that points scored in the 1st through the 3rd are what get you to the heated moments of the 4th...ya know?



Ginofan -- look at Barry's PERCENTAGES as a starter vs a sub -- that was my point. He shoots 10% higher from the field and 6% higher on 3's as a starter. That's HUGE.


Okay, I can see your point. But isn't it kind of hard to figure out percentages per minute...lol I guess it's just by preference whether go by percentages or not? I don't know.

Overall though...I mean, sure Pop could bring Manu off the bench the rest of the season after this initial easing period but I just don't think there's a significant difference in what Barry does as a starter than when he comes off the bench. He's playing his worst basketball in 5-6 years...we brought him in to do one thing really well...outside shooting and it's not happening. I'm not just saying this because I don't want Manu coming off the bench I'm saying this just as from what I've observed.

[picnroll]

My mistake on the 18 minute stretch.

I still think Manu us more susceptible to injury coming in cold off the bench.

To me most critical times of a game are:
1. Begiining of a game. Ideally get off to a strong start but at a minimum not fall way behind and be climbing up hill, messing up your rotations the rest of the half.
2. End of the first half, last 4-5 minutes. Finish strong.
3. Beginning of the third. Again maintain a lead, stay even or climb back in.
4. Fourth quarter of a tight game.

That's when Manu needs to be in.

[Ginofan]

I aslo think that Manu needs to be in when Tim is in...they are the most complementary tandem on the team (and the entire league).

[timvp]

My mistake on the 18 minute stretch.

I still thunk Manu us more susceptible to injury coming in colf=d off the bench.

To me most critical times of a game are:
1. Begiining of a game. Ideally get off to a strong start but at a minimum not fall way behind and be climbing up hill, messing up your rotations the rest of the half.
2. End of the first half, last 4-5 minutes. Finish strong.
3. Beginning of the third. Again maintain a lead, stay even or climb back in.
4. Fourth quarter of a tight game.

That's when Manu needs to be in.

Good points.

But the reason why I think Manu will start is Pop thinks the most important part of the games are:

1. End of the first quarter
2. End of the second quarter
3. End of the third quarter
4. End of the fourth quarter

It's what he stresses as much as defense. Having Manu on the court with fresh legs at each of these stages is Pop's dream.

IMO, unless you have a back injury or something like that, you don't get "cold" by not starting the game. Once you stretch and put on your warmups, you can stay limber ... especially seeing as you're only sitting out the first six minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

He's playing his worst basketball in 5-6 years...we brought him in to do one thing really well...outside shooting and it's not happening.

Well as a starter, his outside shooting percentages are up with his career-averages. So he's been doing what he was brought in to do when he's been starting. He's a lot more efficient in that role. Hopefully he'll be able to maintain it when he goes back to the bench.

For the record, I don't think he'll stay a starter ... but you never know with Pop.

[Ginofan]

Well as a starter, his outside shooting percentages are up with his career-averages. Hopefully he'll be able to maintain them when he goes back to the bench.

For the record, I don't think he'll stay a starter ... but you never know with Pop.

Pop IS full of surprises this season...trading malik, bringing in 2 guys post all star break...and they aren't necessarily bad but just...surprising. I hope the surprises stop there lol

[Manu20]

Whether Manu starts or comes off the bench it is not a big difference if he still gets his 30 minutes a game.

IMO Manu will be the starter but you never know with Pop.

[Athenea]

Benching Manu for good? Completely insane considering last season outcome :depressed :depressed :depressed

P.S.: It's not like Devin Brown would be the starter... :angel

[donkey2400]

Well, there is a simple solution to this, get a damn good shooter on the team so the best players in the team are on the starting line up. IMO i think the big 3 starting might be good enough for a champion ship even if the bench sucks.

[ChumpDumper]

get a damn good shooter on the teamDidn't we?

Barry's %s as a starter say yes.

[Uncle Donnie]

The fourth quarter is the most important but's not like Manu isn't getting heavy duty in the fourth as a starter. Easing him back into his regular minutes off the bench is probably a good idea. Giving Barry his starting job, especially given how Barry's responded, is retarded.

The Lakers should bring Kobe off the bench. Those 10 minutes he plays in the first quarter are wasted. :rolleyes

[stéphane]

mmm why don't we do the same with tony?
start beno and TP will have fresh legs for ends of Qs....
But why the 5best players start a game if the Qs ends are the most important?
Shouldn't the 5 best players come off the bench?

the only thing you have to worry about is : "are the 5 on the floor complementary or not? do they bring the best out of eachother..."
Starting a game well can be very important if you are as tough as the spurs can be on D... Early double digit diff can be a great gift...
The problem is that, it seems this team is struggling when leading by 15/20+ in the third and they have to finish hard to avoid being defeated...

[ducks]

not all starters can come off the bench
hedo could not come off the bench and play well
manu is special he can and he brings a big spark off the bench
beno is good but I am not sure how well he would do against OTHER TEAM STARTERS

[Uncle Donnie]

Ginofan -- look at Barry's PERCENTAGES as a starter vs a sub -- that was my point. He shoots 10% higher from the field and 6% higher on 3's as a starter. That's HUGE.

Those numbers are highly skewed at best. Those are his numbers as a starter with Manu out. Add Manu back in at 30+mpg and it changes everything.

Barry shoots better when he gets more minutes and takes more shots. We've seen it many times this season. With Manu back, as a starter or off the bench, Barry's minutes go down and his splits as a starter with Manu out don't really reflect how he'll respond then.

Unless of course we give Barry all of Devin's minutes and Devin permanently rides the pine.

The argument for bringing Manu off the bench to save him for the fourth, I can sort of understand, even if I don't agree. Doing it to help Barry is asinine. You'd think people would have learned with Hedo.

[kolko]

Off topic, but not all the way off topic ...

Did you see the headband Manu was sporting at shootaround today ...

http://www.woai.com/mediacenter/?videoId=95222,565

:lmao

:lol :lol

He left it in SA so he won't be using it in the next road games.
He said some of his teammates called him Rambo.

He also said he might play vs Pistons but he doesn't know if he will come off the bench or as a starter.

[TMTTRIO]

I understand having him come off the bench after this injury but I think he deserves to keep his starting job. Even though he's tough and can play off the bench remember how he played after being told he was going to get benched. He was trying way to hard and ended up playing very poorly. I don't want to see that again.

[SequSpur]

Manu lost his starting job lmao.

Told ya. Dude hasn't validated anything.

[Kori Ellis]

Manu lost his starting job lmao.

He didn't exactly lose his starting job. He's coming off an injury and may or may not start when he comes back. We'll see how it plays out.

[SequSpur]

There is an unwritten rule in all pro sports.

You don't lose your job due to injury.

Unless you play for Pop.

What Barry can't come off the bench? He has Hedoitis?

[Kori Ellis]

No one said that Barry was going to keep starting except for timvp. Pop just said they may ease Manu back into the rotation.

[CyberBob]

As much as I hated the thought initially, Manu coming off the bench is starting to make a lot of sense to me. Barry has proven that he is not the spark plug off the bench that many fans had hoped, and Manu is a spark plug whenever he’s in the game. Barry is a liability on defense. Starting the game with Tim behind him to cover up his mistakes makes sense. And Manu’s defense and scoring threat is most needed during Timmy’s breaks, especially at the end of the first quarter, and the beginning of the second.

I hate rewarding Barry’s inferior play with a starting position, but Pop has to maximize the situation where each player’s skill set can be best used. In the past I had been in favor of using Barry like Pop used to use Kerr – strictly as a second (or third) shooter when the defense packs it in. But it’s obvious that Barry has more to contribute than just shooting. Since it seems that Brown has proven that he’s better than Barry off the bench, you have to figure some way to get the most out of him.

If Pop does decide to experiment with starting Barry in front of a healthy Manu, the outcome has to be shown to be fruitful very quickly. It’s too late in the season for this kind of rotation experiment. So if we don’t see clear improvement after two or three games, look for Barry to drop almost completely out of the rotation.

War Digital Phone

[Athenea]

Apology Accepted.

Damn, timvp is good.

:smokin
Apology Accepted, Timvp :smokin
Manu started today. That's what u do if the guy is an AS.