Spurs vs. Mavs... will the refs be a series x-factor again?....

[Phenomanul]

I'm not one to harp on the zebras.... but the 2006 series left a very bad taste in my mouth...

It's rather difficult to forget the officiating travesties that occured in Games 2, 3, 4, and 5 of that series.... Particularly Games 3 and 4.

Yeah, yeah, I know if Manu doesn't commit that foul on Dirk in the wanning moments of regulation in Game 7... that the argument is moot... Or if Pop's stubborness to stick with midget-ball throughout the series had been dissuaded sooner... Nevertheless, I feel that the 2006 series never should have gone to seven games to begin with... Heck, it's rather astonishing that the Spurs even managed to come out with a victory in Game 5 after so many absurd calls...

Duncan fouls out of a critical game even though Nowitzki steps on Duncan's foot... and gets called for fouls on the German even though it is clear that Dampier is shoving Duncan from behind into Dirk's body. :rolleyes

Manu fouls out of another critical game, after diving for a ball and with Stackhouse clearly sitting on him...

Dirk gets awarded 25 FTs in a single game... even when Ginobili and Parker were playing equally aggressive??? :wtf If I'm not mistaken... Bavetta was the lead official that game.

Devin Harris steps out of bounds in a critical possession and nothing is called...

I know these blown calls tend to even out in the course of a seven game series... but two of those games were completely atrocious.

One more thing... Joey Crawford better not be assigned to any games in this series... If he does, that game will be a guaranteed loss. :ihit



Spurs have overcome insurmountable odds on many occasions on their way to championships... just hope they can do that this year, even without their 4th quarter closer.

:flag:

[dirk4mvp]

:cry :cry

[samikeyp]

That was a hell of a series, let's not taint it with the refs card. Both fanbases have earned bad reps for that, let's not add to it. This series will be won or lost by the players.

[Phenomanul]

:cry :cry

At least you tasted the same bitter cup when matched against D-whistle... :lol

Your team failed to finish the job.... way to go.

[dirk4mvp]

You don't see and mavfans typing 312 paragraphs about refs. Mavs tapped some ass in 06. Deal with it.

[samikeyp]

You don't see and mavfans typing 312 paragraphs about refs. Mavs tapped some ass in 06. Deal with it.

They did during and after the 06 Finals.

Both fan bases have sizable contingents who like to blame everybody else for their teams setbacks. Sadly they are usually the loudest you hear.

[Jimcs50]

Refs will not be noticed. Best team will win.

[kace]

Refs will not be noticed. Best team will win.

Spurs will win.

[Phenomanul]

That was a hell of a series, let's not taint it with the refs card. Both fanbases have earned bad reps for that, let's not add to it. This series will be won or lost by the players.

Denial of what occured is probably a good approach... but Dallas was better equipped to take out the Spurs in 2003, not 2006....

It's difficult to turn the other way, and suggest that the series outcome had nothing to do with the officiating in Games 3 and 4.

Should we as fans take the high road and ignore it???.. Perhaps.

Should we hold the truth as irrelevant?... by no means... we all saw it!!! Even typical anti-Spur analysts were baffled by the officiating in those particular games... (Adande, Paige, etc...)

Oh well... here's to hoping that the officials aren't a factor this time around :toast

All I know is that the Mavs will sorely miss Devin this year....

[SA210]

The refs screwed us that series plain and simple, I don't give a F*** what anyone says.

[DPG21920]

Pretty weak smack from Spurs fans :td

[samikeyp]

Denial of what occured is probably a good approach... but Dallas was better equipped to take out the Spurs in 2003, not 2006....

It's difficult to turn the other way, and suggest that the series outcome had nothing to do with the officiating in Games 3 and 4.

Should we as fans take the high road and ignore it???.. Perhaps.

Should we hold the truth as irrelevant?... by no means... we all saw it. Even typical anti-Spur analysts were baffled by the officiating in those particular games...

Oh well... here's to hoping that they aren't a factor this time around :toast

All I know is that the Mavs will sorely miss Devin this year.... Spurs' advantage.


I'm not denying or ignoring anything, I simply disagree with your assesment of the series. Despite calls going against them, the Spurs stitll had chances to win that series and didn't. Refs don't cause a player to miss shots or free throws or cause a player to turn the ball over. I just have never believed that outcomes are predetermined and that the league and refs get together before hand and decide "hmm...I think Dallas should win this series" Are there bad calls in games? Absolutely and I think NBA officiating is some of the most inconsistent their is but, IMO, players ultimately decide the outcome.

[Hook Dem]

Refs will not be noticed. Best team will win.

Oh shit Mav fans! Jimcs50 is back. Where you been guy?

[samikeyp]

Pretty weak smack from Spurs fans :td

Agreed....the ref smack is always weak.

[Phenomanul]

I'm not denying or ignoring anything, I simply disagree with your assesment of the series. Despite calls going against them, the Spurs stitll had chances to win that series and didn't. Refs don't cause a player to miss shots or free throws or cause a player to turn the ball over. I just have never believed that outcomes are predetermined and that the league and refs get together before hand and decide "hmm...I think Dallas should win this series" Are there bad calls in games? Absolutely and I think NBA officiating is some of the most inconsistent their is but, IMO, players ultimately decide the outcome.

Didn't the Mavs win Game 4 at the line???

[VBM]

Refs will only be a factor if we're playing in close games. If we make wide open shots, there won't be any close games. So, Mason, Bonner and Finley, make your open shots please.

[Jimcs50]

Oh shit Mav fans! Jimcs50 is back. Where you been guy?


Hey man. See Manu thread. :)

[Phenomanul]

Agreed....the ref smack is always weak.

Doesn't mean the truth should be ignored...

Bad calls have and will likely continue deciding games... and series...

Kings vs. Lakers series in '02
Blazers vs. Lakers series in '00
Mavs vs. Heat in '06 (as much as I detest the team, the Mavs were robbed).

Why was Garnett not suspended during last year's playoffs?

For that matter, why was Crawford involved in the deciding play of the Spurs vs. Lakers series last year??? Why was he even placed in that position???

Whatever... you win some... you lose some.

[SA210]

The refs screwed us that series plain and simple, I don't give a F*** what anyone says.

[samikeyp]

Didn't the Mavs win Game 4 at the line???

No.

Both teams had 32 attempts, Dallas made 2 more. The Spurs shooting 2-7 and letting Dallas go 6-12 in OT doomed them.

[coyotes_geek]

Doesn't mean the truth should be ignored...

I agree. And the truth of the matter is that until the NBA creates a "got screwed by the refs" consolation championship trophy then it doesn't matter whether you get screwed by bad calls or not. You still lost.

[Fabbs]

Denial of what occured is probably a good approach... but Dallas was better equipped to take out the Spurs in 2003, not 2006....
:lol :toast

[samikeyp]

I agree. And the truth of the matter is that until the NBA creates a "got screwed by the refs" consolation championship trophy then it doesn't matter whether you get screwed by bad calls or not. You still lost.

+1

History only records who won and who lost..which is all that matters.

[Phenomanul]

No.

Both teams had 32 attempts, Dallas made 2 more. The Spurs shooting 2-7 and letting Dallas go 6-12 in OT doomed them.

My bad... I meant to say Game 3... the one where Nowitzki was held to below 40% shooting but had like 24 or 25 freethrow attempts... the last of which won the game for the Mavs...

Edit: that's also the game where Duncan fouled out on two bogus calls, despite the fact that he was tearing it up...

[Phenomanul]

I agree. And the truth of the matter is that until the NBA creates a "got screwed by the refs" consolation championship trophy then it doesn't matter whether you get screwed by bad calls or not. You still lost.

I really don't care about the past as long as it doesn't repeat itself on the same terms...

[samikeyp]

My bad... I meant to say Game 3... the one where Nowitzki was held to below 40% shooting but had like 24 or 25 freethrow attempts... the last of which won the game for the Mavs...

SA lost that game at the line. Spurs missed 10 FTs and lost by 1. Mavs did get 50 attempts at the line and sank 39 of them but the Spurs still could have very easily won that game. They hit only 2 more FTs, they win by 1.

[Phenomanul]

SA lost that game at the line. Spurs missed 10 FTs and lost by 1. Mavs did get 50 attempts at the line and sank 39 of them but the Spurs still could have very easily won that game. They hit only 2 more FTs, they win by 1.

Sure the Spurs would never be in that position if they always shot 100% from the line... that could be said for any game...

It still doesn't change the fact that one bad call decided the final outcome of Game 4... Nowitzki was awarded game deciding free-throws for a foul that did not occur...

[dmac]

:cry :cry

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

[samikeyp]

Sure the Spurs would never be in that position if they always shot 100% from the line... that could be said for any game...

It still doesn't change the fact that one bad call decided the final outcome of Game 4... Nowitzki was awarded game deciding free-throws for a foul that did not occur...

They didn't have to shoot 100% from the line. But they only miss 8 instead of 10, they win.

[dirk4mvp]

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

That's nice. Never seen this smack before. Awesome. Keep it up.

[z0sa]

I agree.

refs were RIDICULOUS Games 3 and 4 with not allowing any sort of defense, period. Bowen getting pushed by Dirk's offarm while not contacting him at all somehow equalled a defensive foul over and over.

The officiating undoubtedly affected the outcome of that series. It's tied 2-2 coming back to SA without help from the whistles.

[dirk4mvp]

He's basically saying win something and then you can talk, hillbilly.

You're a fat mexican living in the hellhole known as San Antonio. That must suck.

[poop]

I agree.

refs were RIDICULOUS Games 3 and 4 with not allowing any sort of defense, period. Bowen getting pushed by Dirk's offarm while not contacting him at all somehow equalled a defensive foul over and over.

The officiating undoubtedly affected the outcome of that series. It's tied 2-2 coming back to SA without help from the whistles.


exactly. this was the most one-sided officiating ive EVER seen in the NBA.

never in nba history has a perimeter jump shooter gone to the line even close to as many times as dirk did that series.

they literally won the series off dirk shooting free throws.

i was so disgusted by this obvious tampering that for the first time in 14 years i did not watch the Finals or one second of any other game.

2006* will forever have an asterisk in my mind.

[NRHector]

lets hire someone to kidnap Joey Crawford and then release him after the playoffs, I don't know, maybe the Somalies pirates can do the job because I have a feeling we are going to see him in the playoffs. :bang

[NRHector]

Refs will only be a factor if we're playing in close games. If we make wide open shots, there won't be any close games. So, Mason, Bonner and Finley, make your open shots please.sorry to disagree but they can also kill a momentum and a team can not get their system flowing if they keep calling stupid calls

[samikeyp]

sorry to disagree but they can also kill a momentum and a team can not get their system flowing if they keep calling stupid calls

Championship teams find a way to win even when things aren't going their way.

[CubanMustGo]

Championship teams find a way to win even when things aren't going their way.

+1

Quit crying about 2006 already. If not for a brain-dead foul at the end of game 7 that nobody in their right mind could argue about, the Spurs most likely win. Instead, a Spurs team exhausted by coming from 20 down gift-wrapped OT for Dallas. Move on, you're making Spurs fans look bad.

[Thompson]

Even if you ignore all of the officials' mistakes in that series up to the end of game 7, you could say that they called a foul on Ginobili (which was a legit call) at the very end of the game, but 5 seconds later decided to 'let the players decide the game' when 2 Mavs players were literally hanging onto Duncan to keep him from dunking the ball.

I hate the arbitrary period at the end of the game when the refs decide to swallow their whistles. The fact that it's arbitrary makes it easier for personal bias to enter into the decision. Remember a couple years ago when Dirk actually tackled Finley when Mike was shooting a 3 at the end of a regular season game? Apparently that's not a foul. Same with Fischer fouling Barry, and Terry jumping into Mason with no call (that last one hasn't happened yet, but something like it inevitably will because the NBA sees errors and sits on its hands).

And you can put people down for complaining about bad calls, but it would help if the NBA did what it could to rectify the problems that do occur. I'm not so much worried about the bad calls in the past as much as those I'm bound to see again in the future.

[samikeyp]

And you can put people down for complaining about bad calls, but it would help if the NBA did what it could to rectify the problems that do occur.

Now that I agree with. NBA officiating has become woefully inconsistent. Either call it tight, or let them play but don't go back and forth.

[Phenomanul]

Even if you ignore all of the officials' mistakes in that series up to the end of game 7, you could say that they called a foul on Ginobili (which was a legit call) at the very end of the game, but 5 seconds later decided to 'let the players decide the game' when 2 Mavs players were literally hanging onto Duncan to keep him from dunking the ball.

I hate the arbitrary period at the end of the game when the refs decide to swallow their whistles. The fact that it's arbitrary makes it easier for personal bias to enter into the decision. Remember a couple years ago when Dirk actually tackled Finley when Mike was shooting a 3 at the end of a regular season game? Apparently that's not a foul. Same with Fischer fouling Barry, and Terry jumping into Mason with no call (that last one hasn't happened yet, but something like it inevitably will because the NBA sees errors and sits on its hands).

And you can put people down for complaining about bad calls, but it would help if the NBA did what it could to rectify the problems that do occur. I'm not so much worried about the bad calls in the past as much as those I'm bound to see again in the future.

+1

It boils down to this... can they just be consistent???

[Brutalis]

I can't look back and think the 06 loss was on the refs. Not with the idiot Manu foul. I do however believe it would be nice to see Duncan get respect in the paint this time against the Mavs. He was dogged last go-round. Everything else just kind of sucked. We let them win a couple games and they closed them like good teams do. Or when they were that good anyhow.

[Borosai]

I already paid off the refs. We're good to go.

[BUMP]

I can't look back and think the 06 loss was on the refs. Not with the idiot Manu foul. I do however believe it would be nice to see Duncan get respect in the paint this time against the Mavs. He was dogged last go-round. Everything else just kind of sucked. We let them win a couple games and they closed them like good teams do. Or when they were that good anyhow.

He outshot the entire Maverick team, how much respect do you want?

:lol:lol:lol

[BUMP]

*He shot more freethrows than the entire Maverick team

[Obstructed_View]

Popovich benched both the starting centers and had lineups that included Finley as the 4. If you blame anyone, Pop has to be WAY ahead of the zebras.

[Holmes_Fans]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1997/dirkmanu.jpg

[dav4463]

My bad... I meant to say Game 3... the one where Nowitzki was held to below 40% shooting but had like 24 or 25 freethrow attempts... the last of which won the game for the Mavs...

Edit: that's also the game where Duncan fouled out on two bogus calls, despite the fact that he was tearing it up...


Isn't that the one where Dirk stepped on Tim's foot and fell down and Tim got called for a foul? Dirk fell down on every shot he took that day and the refs took the bait and bailed him out every time.

[Slippy]

The refs almost always get a pass from me no matter how much of a influence they have on games. It's a tough job with superstar treatment being my biggest fustration and probably theirs too. Saying that, the 06 series against the mavs was painful to watch. When in the play-offs where players get away with more physicality that series went totally opposite with soft calls and freethrows. The in-advertent tripping call on Tim even though Dirk initiated the contanct topped it off.

If the level of superstar treatment is down to a minimum then i wont have any complaints. As per usual.

[AussieFanKurt]

You don't see and mavfans typing 312 paragraphs about refs. Mavs tapped some ass in 06. Deal with it.

and then you had a nice lead to old dwade and lost it :downspin:

[kobyz]

the refs in this series was not let the Spurs to defend dirk, they gave alot fouls on Spurs players when they just were in front of Dirk and play solid defense on him.

[raspsa]

Refs making dubious calls now and then are part of the game.. you have to accept the good with the bad. Over a 7-game series in particular, the better team will prevail. So its team execution and consistency that ultimately determines success or failure. Blaming the refs is just a sign of insecurity.

[samikeyp]

Refs making dubious calls now and then are part of the game.. you have to accept the good with the bad. Over a 7-game series in particular, the better team will prevail. So its team execution and consistency that ultimately determines success or failure. Blaming the refs is just a sign of insecurity.

+1 :toast

[Halberto]

You don't see and mavfans typing 312 paragraphs about refs. Mavs tapped some ass in 06. Deal with it.



tappped some ass?

[sribb43]

When the Spurs lose we will hear these 3 excuses..Manu didnt play, TD had bad knee and the refs screwed us

[samikeyp]

When the Spurs lose we will hear these 3 excuses..Manu didnt play, TD had bad knee and the refs screwed us

Very true and when the Mavs lose we will hear these 3 excuses, J-Ho is still not healthy, we should have traded for Shaq and the refs screwed us.

Oh and for both you will also here "(insert coach's name here) sucks!"

:)

Of all the above though, the refs excuse will be heard the most. Many members of both fanbases tend to lean a little heavy on that one.

[sribb43]

Very true and when the Mavs lose we will hear these 3 excuses, J-Ho is still not healthy, we should have traded for Shaq and the refs screwed us.

Oh and for both you will also here "(insert coach's name here) sucks!"

:)

More like J-Ho is a piece of sh!t, Donnie should be fired and TD got all the calls

[samikeyp]

More like J-Ho is a piece of sh!t, Donnie should be fired and TD got all the calls

Good ones also, the Spurs version would be "Finley/Bonner is a piece of shit, Fire Pop and Dirk got all the calls".

:lol

[z0sa]

Refs making dubious calls now and then are part of the game.. you have to accept the good with the bad. Over a 7-game series in particular, the better team will prevail. So its team execution and consistency that ultimately determines success or failure. Blaming the refs is just a sign of insecurity.

it's calling it like you see it. There *were* bad calls against the Spurs that series, and considering how very evenly matched it was, they were series altering calls IMO.

Maybe you're just too insecure to call out the refs?

[poop]

the spurs got screwed just as bad in the Spurs-Mavs series as the mavs did in the Mavs-heat finals.
funny how mavs fans have been crying for years over those finals whilest ignoring the fact that they got the same exact treatment in the WCF resulting in their 'win' against the spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs move their entire center rotation to the end of the bench, leaving Tim Duncan as the only big player in the paint.

Dirk Nowitzki goes to the line a lot, and Tim Duncan struggles with foul trouble.

Do Spurs fans really fail to see the correlation between these two events?

[z0sa]

The Spurs move their entire center rotation to the end of the bench, leaving Tim Duncan as the only big player in the paint.

Dirk Nowitzki goes to the line a lot, and Tim Duncan struggles with foul trouble.

Do Spurs fans really fail to see the correlation between these two events?

You do remember The Trip Over the Foot, don't you? The one Tim fouled out on?

Describe to me how that's not a series altering call.

btw, throwing your opinion out there as fact (that going small ball wasn't the best option against the extremely small lineups mavs trotted out) won't get you any points.

[raspsa]

it's calling it like you see it. There *were* bad calls against the Spurs that series, and considering how very evenly matched it was, they were series altering calls IMO.

Maybe you're just too insecure to call out the refs?

Oh, no doubt there were bad calls. But I don't dwell on them, particularly years after the fact.. really doesn't serve any constructive purpose to do so. Personally, I think Pop and the Spurs would be embarrassed by such behavior. Maybe some fans could try and emulate their classy example of not making any excuses.

[BUMP]

once again. Tim Duncan shot more free throws than the entire Maverick team that series.

If he actually made them then they wouldve advanced easily, instead having to pull the ref card and "series altering" bullshit.

Fail.

[superbigtime]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

[Basketballgirl25]

You don't see and mavfans typing 312 paragraphs about refs. Mavs tapped some ass in 06. Deal with it.

I've just started posting here, but I know I have seen Mav fans typing about refs all the time. I see more Mav fans then Spur fans

[dirk4mvp]

I've just started posting here, but I know I have seen Mav fans typing about refs all the time. I see more Mav fans then Spur fans

cool story bro.

The refs are the reason the Spurs haven't currently won 6 straight titles.

[Basketballgirl25]

cool story bro.

The refs are the reason the Spurs haven't currently won 6 straight titles.

Spurs winning 6 straight titles would be better for me then seeing mavs win any, but tha't just me

[guzmangm]

What gets eats me as a Spurs fan is that there should be six trophies in that case and not four... I think we were robbed in '04 and '06 by officiating. 04 shot shouldn't of count, and 06 all out bad officiating. To say that championships teams find a way to win just covers up up the fact that lesser teams get helped sometimes. Just call it fair, I can take a loss because our team played bad, but when you're already taking a handicap from calls going the other way... It's like what are you trying to prove or say about your team, that we are so good we can win when the calls go against us. F that, call it even and give me the ring!

[dirk4mvp]

Spurs winning 6 straight titles would be better for me then seeing mavs win any, but tha't just me

Thanks for the fresh new smack :tu

[Basketballgirl25]

Thanks for the fresh new smack :tu

no prob, anytime. Do you post on dallas-mavs.com? if you do you might remember me I use to put them down all the time

[mardigan]

:cry :cry

+1

Rule #76: No excuses. Play like a champion.

[hater]

Game 3: Spurs 103, Mavericks 104

Officials: Bill Spooner , Joe Crawford , Joe Derosa

:bang

[z0sa]

once again. Tim Duncan shot more free throws than the entire Maverick team that series.

If he actually made them then they wouldve advanced easily, instead having to pull the ref card and "series altering" bullshit.

Fail.

Fail indeed, with the way Tim was getting mugged for 40+ minutes a night, the whole Mavericks team should have fouled out.

Instead, they decided Tim and all his hardnosed attacking in the paint, deserved only slightly more freethrows than Dirk and his attacking with ...... fadeaways and freethrow line jumpers over much shorter defenders? Yeah, those fouls they gave Tim are totally bs compared to the bullshit they handed Dirk.

[manufan10]

once again. Tim Duncan shot more free throws than the entire Maverick team that series.

If he actually made them then they wouldve advanced easily, instead having to pull the ref card and "series altering" bullshit.

Fail.

Game 1: Duncan: 5-6 Mavs: 19-28
Game 2: Duncan: 12-14 Mavs: 35-43
Game 3: Duncan: 5-8 Mavs: 39-50
Game 4: Duncan: 7-8 Mavs: 28-32
Game 5: Duncan:10-15 Mavs: 16-19
Game 6: Duncan: 8-10 Mavs: 17-20
Game 7: Duncan: 17-23 Mavs: 28-31

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_sasdal.html

So if you know how to add the final FT made/attempts would look like this:
Duncan: 64-84 Mavs: 182-223

I think someone needs to go back to math class. No way did Duncan shoot more FT's than the entire Mavs team.

FAIL!

[sananspursfan21]

Refs will not be noticed. Best team will win.

no brainer

[poop]

only in 2006 did we lose cause of the reffing.

in '04 we gave up after fishers bs shot and played like shit.

[Borosai]

The year is 2009. The championship has already been decided by the gods. Let it go.

[Obstructed_View]

You do remember The Trip Over the Foot, don't you? The one Tim fouled out on?

Describe to me how that's not a series altering call.
I never suggested that one call wasn't bad, but when you compare it to the FACT that the coach benched both starting centers, that one call at the end is meaningless. Besides, it could easily be argued that Duncan wouldn't have had five fouls if there'd been someone other than Horry or Oberto (who was a rookie) in the middle with him. Duncan's first two fouls in that game were on Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels. Duncan had to try to patrol the paint as the only shot blocker through the vast majority of that series.


btw, throwing your opinion out there as fact (that going small ball wasn't the best option against the extremely small lineups mavs trotted out) won't get you any points.

Since you seem to think that Nowitzki + Diop + Dampier in the rotation = "extremely small lineup", I guess I should be grateful that my completely factual and correct assessment isn't to your satisfaction. You might have someone look up the word "fact" for you as well. The only lineup change AJ made was to put Harris in for Griffin after game 1, which makes the lineup exactly two inches shorter. Pop was well into the smallball experiment by the end of the Sacramento series.

[dav4463]

mavs were the flavor of the month back in 06. the mavs and suns were supposed to be the future of the league. rules were changed to keep the spurs and pistons from winning any more titles. remember the emphasis on hand checks? that was because precious dirk could not drive to the basket. it bit them in the ass in the finals as d.wade lived at the foul line much like dirk did against the spurs! mavs, suns still have zero titles. it will continue. at the end of the year the spurs will still have four titles, maybe five, but it is safe to say the mavs and suns will still be stuck on ZERO.