Would D-Will have been an allstar by now if he played for the Lakers?

[jayman2582]

Does playing for a big market team like LA or Boston really add that much respect ala Mo Williams?? Has playing for the Jazz really made much of a difference in getting Deron the attention he deserves?

[balli]

He should have been one last year, but they let B-Roy go because Portland got hot in December. Dumb. So, I'd say yes. If he'd have been playing for LA in 07-08 he would've been an allstar. They should've just given it to him this year even though he was hurt. IMO, it should be the best players who go, not the guys who happened to get through the pre-season without getting their ankles exploded by dumbass rookie defenders.

[anonoftheinternets]

all star selection is overrated.

[DA BULLS]

Does playing for a big market team like LA or Boston really add that much respect ala Mo Williams?? Has playing for the Jazz really made much of a difference in getting Deron the attention he deserves?

i think so. there bigger market teams(chicago, l.a., new york, boston) they all have the media attention and coverage that smaller market teams dont have. if williams played in new york he'd be looked at as a superstar prob. or alot more hyped up

[Allanon]

The problem is DWill plays in the West, he would be an All Star by now if he was in the East.

CP3/Kobe/Tracy McGrady/Tony Parker/Steve Nash/Brandon Roy

Kobe/Tracy McGrady have usually gotten the popular vote. Steve Nash was a two time MVP. And then you have CP3/Tony Parker, who gets taken out?

6 guys but only 4 spots.

[balli]

Nash and TP and Roy. And if the league was smart they'd get rid of the fan vote.

[Allanon]

Nash and TP and Roy. And if the league was smart they'd get rid of the fan vote.

Steve Nash was MVP in 2005 & 2006, he had to automatically get an All Star selection in 2007 because he was reigning MVP. In, 2008 he was still putting up great numbers and was the prior MVP.

Kobe/T-Mac/CP3/Steve Nash took all 4 spots up to 2008. Then you have Finals MVP Tony Parker, he had to get some ASG in.

Only in 2009 did Dwill really have a chance, but he was injured so Brandon Roy was chosen.

Even playing on the Lakers, it wouldn't have made a differece, there's still only 4 guard spots on the West All Star team and it's hard to pick DWill over the two MVP's Steve Nash and Tony Parker before 2009.

[balli]

Then you have Finals MVP Tony Parker, he had to get some ASG in.
I thought that was dumb anyway. A token nod. There was some debate about whether or not he deserved it over Duncan. Obviously, he played great, but I'll never ever believe that Tony Parker was more valuable to a championship spurs team than Tim Duncan.

And Roy shouldn't have gone last year. The Blazers had that really hot streak in December before falling apart, but nobody realized they fell apart, so they gave it to Roy, but he wasn't as good as Deron last year. Plain and simple.

And all in all, I don't really care. The ASG is meaningless. But Deron is the first or second best pg in the league. I understand there's only so many spots, but it semi-irks me that nobody's found a way to get him in the game over TP, a not as good Nash or Brandon Roy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Steve Nash was MVP in 2005 & 2006, he had to automatically get an All Star selection in 2007 because he was reigning MVP.

Or because he was putting up better numbers than either of his first two MVP seasons and wound up being 2nd in MVP voting? Could that possibly have something to do with it?

[balli]

Nash's MVPs were a stupid precedent to set anyways.

[Allanon]

Or because he was putting up better numbers than either of his first two MVP seasons and wound up being 2nd in MVP voting? Could that possibly have something to do with it?

It all comes with the territory. Regardless of his stats, he's an automatic ASG selection as the reigning MVP.

I can't recall a time when a healthy, reigning MVP wasn't in the ASG.

[BRHornet45]

son its just because he plays in the West which is stacked with star guards. If he played in the East he would have a better chance. I think D-Will deserved to make the team LAST YEAR, but this year he was questionable.

Regardless, you can't use the "small market" excuse. Look at my Hornets ... we are the smallest market team in the NBA and Paul gets tons of media attention (and WELL DESERVED). Not to mention David West has made the All Star team twice. Also, look at Orlando.... they are the second smallest market and Dwight Howard is treated like a God in the media. They also produced a couple All Stars this year as well.

[Ghazi]

David West didn't deserve those All Star nominations

Deron > CP Whistle

[BRHornet45]

David West didn't deserve those All Star nominations

Deron > CP Whistle

LOL as expected from your bitch ass. LMAO at this sissy

[Allanon]

And all in all, I don't really care. The ASG is meaningless. But Deron is the first or second best pg in the league. I understand there's only so many spots, but it semi-irks me that nobody's found a way to get him in the game over TP, a not as good Nash or Brandon Roy.

I agree that D-Will is #1 or #2 PG in the NBA and should have gotten an All Star already...just bad circumstances.

[stretch]

And then you have CP3/Tony Parker, who gets taken out?

D-Will > Parker

[stretch]

David West didn't deserve those All Star nominations

Deron > CP Whistle

CP3 is absolutely amazing, and has a chance to be one of, if not the greatest PG the NBA has ever seen. He's definitely one of, if not the most skilled PG the league has seen. There really isn't any skill the guy doesn't have for a PG, and he's proven it. The only thing left is for him to lead a team to a couple titles. The other accolades will come with it.

David West on the other hand... has a nice midrange jumper. But I don't think any player in the league has gotten carried more by a superstar teammate than David West. Without CP3, West is very mediocre.

[Allanon]

D-Will > Parker

Tony Parker/CP3/DWill are all the #1 point guards. I can't really say one is better than the other.

[Trainwreck2100]

I thought that was dumb anyway. A token nod. There was some debate about whether or not he deserved it over Duncan. Obviously, he played great, but I'll never ever believe that Tony Parker was more valuable to a championship spurs team than Tim Duncan.


Mike Brown made the decision that year to let Tony Parker beat them and he did just that, the reason it was a sweep was because Parker stayed consistent and Brown never changed the strategy

[stretch]

Tony Parker/CP3/DWill are all the #1 point guards. I can't really say one is better than the other.

Tony Parker isn't even the #1 player on his team. That team still revolves around Tim Duncan.

Give me both of them before Parker.

[stretch]

I thought that was dumb anyway. A token nod. There was some debate about whether or not he deserved it over Duncan. Obviously, he played great, but I'll never ever believe that Tony Parker was more valuable to a championship spurs team than Tim Duncan.

I couldn't agree more. Parker is a heck of a player, but Tim Duncan is still the MVP of that team. Simply take Parker off the team, and the Spurs can still make the playoffs. Take Duncan off, and they end up in a struggle to make the 8th seed, likely missing out.

[Allanon]

Tony Parker isn't even the #1 player on his team. That team still revolves around Tim Duncan.

Give me both of them before Parker.

I think this year, Tony Parker has been the best Spur player.

But CP3/Dwill picked ahead of Tony Parker is fine. To me it's 3 #1 guys, 1a. 1b. 1c, the order doesn't really matter, they're all damn good.

[stretch]

I think this year, Tony Parker has been the best Spur player.

But CP3/Dwill picked ahead of Tony Parker is fine. To me it's 3 #1 guys, 1a. 1b. 1c, the order doesn't really matter, they're all damn good.

I agree they are all very good. But CP3 and DWill are better at running a set offense, have better passing and shooting skills, are better defenders, and play with crappier teams. IMO there is no question those guys are better basketball players than TP.

I think there is CP3 and D-Will as the top tier PGs, then you have guys like Parker, Nash, Billups, etc...

[Allanon]

I agree they are all very good. But CP3 and DWill are better at running a set offense, have better passing and shooting skills, are better defenders, and play with crappier teams. IMO there is no question those guys are better basketball players than TP.

I think there is CP3 and D-Will as the top tier PGs, then you have guys like Parker, Nash, Billups, etc...

I can't really argue against that; except that I don't think he should be put in the same class with Nash/Billups.

[z0sa]

Tony Parker isn't even the #1 player on his team. That team still revolves around Tim Duncan.

Give me both of them before Parker.

parker's beat both of them in the playoffs, against CP3 last playoffs he had a fantastic series.

fail

[Killakobe81]

Look DWill is the MOST complete PG in the league you guys want to say CP3 is the best fine ... I disagree but i can see the argument ...stats, stats stats BUT watch the games how many times has Cp3 SHOT his team back in to the game like Dwill? But Dwill can also pass (10assists), board and had 3 steals last night ...
No disrespect to CP3 ...but head 2 head he crushes Cp3 in whenever they meet ...they are BOTH great but I HATE when people like Stu Scott say he is CLEARLY the best PG in the NBA ...when DWill deserves to at LEAST be considered cloes, if not equal or better ...
And yes if he was on the Lakers he would be an All-star ...trust.

[sook]

All these niggas eat Aaron Brook's shit!

[Cry Havoc]

Best guards in the West that are mentioned in this thread:

1. Kobe
2. Chris Paul
3a. Tony Parker 3b. Deron Williams
5. Brandon Roy (I still want to call him Brandon "Wah" because of the goalie :lol)
6. Steve Nash (maybe, probably lower)
27th(ish). Tracy McGrady

That's how All-star voting should go.

[jag]

I agree they are all very good. But CP3 and DWill are better at running a set offense, have better passing and shooting skills, are better defenders, and play with crappier teams. IMO there is no question those guys are better basketball players than TP.

I think there is CP3 and D-Will as the top tier PGs, then you have guys like Parker, Nash, Billups, etc...

Better defenders?

Paul is terrible defensively and DWill might even be worse.

[jazzypimp]

Better defenders?

Paul is terrible defensively and DWill might even be worse.

Are you saying parker is better?

[balli]

Dwill is not an excellent defender, but he's light years ahead of Paul and quite aways ahead of Tony Parker. If he had even a moderate amount of help from Okur and Boozer, Deron would be one of the better screen roll defenders in the league. And I'll be damned if anyone posts him up. Ever. I'll also be damned if cp3 or Tony ever switch to guarding a 2 without getting eaten alive.

Deron might be worse than paul on D? LMFAO. CP3 gives up the single worst FG% to opposing pg's out of any starter in the league. At least last year. The only thing he does is play passing lanes.

[DPG21920]

There really is no question anymore this year TP > Deron. The Jazz have equal talent on their roster, yet they cannot win on the road, cannot get to the WCF and TP is a much better defender than most give him credit for.

[jazzypimp]

There really is no question anymore this year TP > Deron. The Jazz have equal talent on their roster, yet they cannot win on the road, cannot get to the WCF and TP is a much better defender than most give him credit for.

You have got to be fucking kidding me?? After watching the jazz fumble sweet passes time and time again I cannot stand for this... Look at how many open shots deron gives his teammates?? just watch one game and count them... It's not his fault they cant make them.. parker can score but show me one person outside spurs fans that would pick parker over D-will for their team...

[Greg Oden]

There really is no question anymore this year TP > Deron. The Jazz have equal talent on their roster, yet they cannot win on the road, cannot get to the WCF and TP is a much better defender than most give him credit for.

you're gonna make the guy have a heart attack talking shit about Williams.

[redzero]

Chris Paul is better than Williams and Parker. There isn't anything that Williams does better anymore, and Parker is always a shoot first guard.

[balli]

The TP is a better pg than Williams opinion is about the single dumbest take on this board. How many games this year did TP have 10+ assists? A couple? Any at all? LMFAO at a guy who rarely, if ever, gets 10+ assists being a better point guard than Deron Williams.

[DPG21920]

There is no shit talking. CP3 is the best, that is clear. But I and many others (look at the MVP voting, awards...) have Tony slightly above D-Will. That in no way is a knock on D-Will. He is great, and they are close, but due to the factors I mentioned TP gets the nod.

Don't talk about 1 game. D-Will player for player has as much roster talent as TP and has not done the same things. It is hard for TP to get assists because of the slower pace the Spurs play along with the fact that Tim is a pound the ball kind of guy. TP is a very underrated passer and I can bring up a lot of numbers that justify my statements but I do not want to get into it.

[DPG21920]

Assists are not the only thing that constitutes being a good point guard. Running a team that can win is more important whether that means scoring, passing or both. Whatever your team needs. LMAO at thinking TP could not average 10 assists in most systems.

[jazzypimp]

There is no shit talking. CP3 is the best, that is clear. But I and many others (look at the MVP voting, awards...) have Tony slightly above D-Will. That in no way is a knock on D-Will. He is great, and they are close, but due to the factors I mentioned TP gets the nod.

Don't talk about 1 game. D-Will player for player has as much roster talent as TP and has not done the same things. It is hard for TP to get assist because the slower pace the Spurs play at along with the fact that Tim is a pound the ball kind of guy. TP is a very underrated passer and I can bring up a lot of numbers that justify my statements but I do not want to get into it.

Give me fucking manu and duncan and I'll give you boozer and AK and see where that gets you!

[DPG21920]

Trade us Brewer, CJ Miles, Milsap and we will give you Finley, Oberto and Bowen

[lefty]

Deron Williams is an amazing player, tough competitor. I love to watch him play; CP3 can go fuck himself

One of the few Jazz players with balls (along with Millsap and Harpring).

He deserves better than than soft ass team

[jazzypimp]

Trade us Brewer, CJ Miles, Milsap and we will give you Finley, Oberto and Bowen

Fucking roger mason and the red crotch rocket makes more shots consistently than miles....I wouldn't take them tho cuz I think those players have upside... doesnt change the fact that those are 2 guards who couldn't hit an open jumpshot consistantly this year!

[DPG21920]

Doesn't matter, the Jazz have more than equal talent and say what you will about Boozer, he is a serious offensive weapon when healthy. Point is you cannot look at the Utah roster and the Spurs roster and say "wow, TP has so much more to work with than Deron".

TP has done much more with his talent and roster and leads his team to wins both on the road and in the playoffs much more consistently over the years than D-Will. Last year I would have said Deron is better, but with the leap TP has made, he has moved ahead.

[jazzypimp]

Doesn't matter, the Jazz have more than equal talent and say what you will about Boozer, he is a serious offensive weapon when healthy. Point is you cannot look at the Utah roster and the Spurs roster and say "wow, TP has so much more to work with than Deron".

TP has done much more with his talent and roster and leads his team to wins both on the road and in the playoffs much more consistently over the years than D-Will. Last year I would have said Deron is better, but with the leap TP has made, he has moved ahead.

Well, your still in the minority!! I guess that makes you a real fan!

[jayman2582]

Doesn't matter, the Jazz have more than equal talent and say what you will about Boozer, he is a serious offensive weapon when healthy. Point is you cannot look at the Utah roster and the Spurs roster and say "wow, TP has so much more to work with than Deron".

TP has done much more with his talent and roster and leads his team to wins both on the road and in the playoffs much more consistently over the years than D-Will. Last year I would have said Deron is better, but with the leap TP has made, he has moved ahead.

Dude, I love TP and love what he has done and am perfectly content with him.... But if the jazz were to offer me DWill straight up for TP then I would say where do I sign... No question.. Your just letting your homerism get the best of you... I've watched plenty of jazz games and there is a reason TP never, hardly ever guards DWill when they play.He is a scorer first and distributor second.. But that's TP's game and there is nothing wrong with that... but put up a national poll on who they would rather build their team around Dwill or Parker and I think it would be awfully lopsided!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There really is no question anymore this year TP > Deron. The Jazz have equal talent on their roster, yet they cannot win on the road, cannot get to the WCF and TP is a much better defender than most give him credit for.

Equal talent? WTF?

Tim Duncan = Carlos Boozer?
Tim Duncan = Paul Millsap?

[BRHorent45]

Assists are not the only thing that constitutes being a good point guard. Running a team that can win is more important whether that means scoring, passing or both. Whatever your team needs. LMAO at thinking TP could not average 10 assists in most systems.

LOL @ this son.. I use TP to whipe my a$$... how that a$$ taste?

[DPG21920]

equal talent? Wtf?

Tim duncan > carlos boozer?
Matt bonner = paul millsap?

fify

[Amaso]

Deron Williams is a flat out stud. It's sad that a top 10 player in this league hasn't made the all-star team yet.

[La Peace]

To me D will does everyhing. Passes/shoots/dunks/3's/steals. And so does Chris Paul. Watching D will is like watching the one of the best players at the point guard position. He is even better than Paul at some of these categories.

But watching Chris Paul is like poetry in motion. Chris Paul makes defenders run into each other like pin balls. He patrols the paint like a shark waiting for you to slip up. His style is what makes him what he is to me. Not his stats (which are mvp worthy as well), he is simply one of the best basketball players at playing basketball.

To answer the initial question: if he was on the knicks or bulls he would difinately be an all-star. In the west, I am pretty sure they would do something if didn't make the initial ballot with all of the talented guards taking up the initial spots. I would just take David west out, bull shit his vote count and put in Deron. Way more entertaining.

[Cry Havoc]

Better defenders?

Paul is terrible defensively and DWill might even be worse.

What are you basing this on? He's just too big to guard extremely fast point guards. He's a very good defender if you would actually watch him.


Doesn't matter, the Jazz have more than equal talent and say what you will about Boozer, he is a serious offensive weapon when healthy. Point is you cannot look at the Utah roster and the Spurs roster and say "wow, TP has so much more to work with than Deron".

TP has done much more with his talent and roster and leads his team to wins both on the road and in the playoffs much more consistently over the years than D-Will. Last year I would have said Deron is better, but with the leap TP has made, he has moved ahead.

I could not POSSIBLY disagree with you more on this take. Tony Parker has Tim Duncan. That right there means that he has a player who is consistently better than Boozer on offense and LIGHT YEARS ahead of him on defense. This is to say nothing of basketball IQ, which is akin to taking an average person and asking him to do math against Stephen Hawking.

As a Spurs fan, I cannot possibly believe you would say the Jazz are equal to the Spurs in talent. You're saying if you took Parker and Deron off their respective teams, each team would have a similar record? The Jazz would be a 30 win team without Williams.


The TP is a better pg than Williams opinion is about the single dumbest take on this board. How many games this year did TP have 10+ assists? A couple? Any at all? LMFAO at a guy who rarely, if ever, gets 10+ assists being a better point guard than Deron Williams.

This is a flawed argument. Tony is not relied upon for assists in this offense. In fact, Pop probably doesn't WANT Tony to get many assists. His job is to penetrate and either A) score or B) draw several defenders to allow ball rotation to the other side of the court for open shots. The Spurs are not a one-pass team, which is why Parker and Duncan never get many assists, even though Duncan is constantly passing out of double teams.

There cannot be more opposite point guards than Deron and Tony. One is a powerful, oversized PG who can back down the other team or make quick passes for easy buckets. The other is a lightning fast penetrating point guard who is relied upon for scoring and defensive break-downs to free up outside shots.

Tony Parker just scored 19 points in one QUARTER. Consider that he was on pace for 76 points, and only backed off because the Spurs had the game well in hand the rest of the way, save a small 3rd quarter run by the Mavs. He could have easily went off for 50 or maybe 60+ last night. The Mavs had absolutely no answer for him. Luckily for Tony, the Spurs didn't need him to do that.

[redzero]

Deron is better at the point guard position.

[balli]

What are you basing this on? He's just too big to guard extremely fast point guards. He's a very good defender if you would actually watch him.



I could not POSSIBLY disagree with you more on this take. Tony Parker has Tim Duncan. That right there means that he has a player who is consistently better than Boozer on offense and LIGHT YEARS ahead of him on defense. This is to say nothing of basketball IQ, which is akin to taking an average person and asking him to do math against Stephen Hawking.

As a Spurs fan, I cannot possibly believe you would say the Jazz are equal to the Spurs in talent. You're saying if you took Parker and Deron off their respective teams, each team would have a similar record? The Jazz would be a 30 win team without Williams.



This is a flawed argument. Tony is not relied upon for assists in this offense. In fact, Pop probably doesn't WANT Tony to get many assists. His job is to penetrate and either A) score or B) draw several defenders to allow ball rotation to the other side of the court for open shots. The Spurs are not a one-pass team, which is why Parker and Duncan never get many assists, even though Duncan is constantly passing out of double teams.

There cannot be more opposite point guards than Deron and Tony. One is a powerful, oversized PG who can back down the other team or make quick passes for easy buckets. The other is a lightning fast penetrating point guard who is relied upon for scoring and defensive break-downs to free up outside shots.

Tony Parker just scored 19 points in one QUARTER. Consider that he was on pace for 76 points, and only backed off because the Spurs had the game well in hand the rest of the way, save a small 3rd quarter run by the Mavs. He could have easily went off for 50 or maybe 60+ last night. The Mavs had absolutely no answer for him. Luckily for Tony, the Spurs didn't need him to do that.

Havoc one of the first epic arguments I ever got into on this board was over the nature of the pg position and whether or not "true" or prototypical players exist for any given position. And I'm not going to repeat it in great detail other than to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree about it.

And I understand that the Spurs offense is less dependant on Tony getting as many assists as possible, but were that not the case, that doesn't mean he has or could have the court vision/passing ability of Deron. Not even close IMO. I watch Deron drop beautiful assists (or blown assists) every single time he steps on the floor. And system or not, the fact is, I don't think Tony Parker, while a fine player, better in some areas, has anywhere near that level of ability when it comes to passing the ball.

[DPG21920]

Why when I say the Jazz have = talent does everyone pull the Duncan card? That is one player.

When you look at the entire roster, the Jazz are just as talented on paper. Yes Duncan is better than Boozer. But Okur is much better than Bonner. Millsap is much better than KT. Brewer is better than any wing the Spurs have. Ginobili is better than any sg they have, but then the Jazz have AK47.

If Deron is that much better than TP, he would be able to win on the road. He would be able to advance deeper in the playoffs.

[Cry Havoc]

Havoc one of the first epic arguments I ever got into on this board was over the nature of the pg position and whether or not "true" or prototypical players exist for any given position. And I'm not going to repeat it in great detail other than to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree about it.

And I understand that the Spurs offense is less dependant on Tony getting as many assists as possible, but were that not the case, that doesn't mean he has or could have the court vision/passing ability of Deron. Not even close IMO. I watch Deron drop beautiful assists (or blown assists) every single time he steps on the floor. And system or not, the fact is, I don't think Tony Parker, while a fine player, better in some areas, has anywhere near that level of ability when it comes to passing the ball.

I don't see that we're disagreeing. I think Deron might be slightly better than Parker right now, but the difference is very slim.

Deron is a better passer, however, Tony is more unstoppable as a scorer. He's the fastest player in the league and there's not a player in the league who can stay with him when he's on. As good of a passer as Deron is, that's how fantastic Tony is at getting into the paint and finishing. He fits better on the Spurs than Williams would, but most teams would probably benefit more from Deron than Tony.

[balli]

The Jazz have talent. It doesn't matter because they've quit. And there's not a damn thing in the world Deron can do about that. He's been getting 20+ and 15+ all the time. And if his teammates still don't want to try, there's not a drop of blame you can put on Deron for that. He doesn't fall apart on the road, or cause anybody else to and I'll be damned if he takes the blame for his team being a bunch mentally soft bitch-made pussies. No matter how talented they are. Blame Sloan.

[balli]

For what it's worth, I think Tony is hands-down the better scorer (and that's saying a lot considering Deron's 3 pt ability). I mean the guy is just flat out unstoppable. It's no joke to say that he could go for as many points as he wants. He's the type of guy who could lead the league in scoring. It's just, yeah, I don't think that's necessarily the pg's job on (as you alluded to) most teams. But hey, it works for the Spurs and he's damn good at doing what they need him to do.

[DPG21920]

The Jazz have talent. It doesn't matter because they've quit. And there's not a damn thing in the world Deron can do about that. He's been getting 20+ and 15+ all the time. And if his teammates still don't want to try, there's not a drop of blame you can put on Deron for that. He doesn't fall apart on the road, or cause anybody else to and I'll be damned if he takes the blame for his team being a bunch mentally soft bitch-made pussies. No matter how talented they are. Blame Sloan.

The leader of the team gets the blame. Just like Dirk. Puts up great numbers, has an MVP, is an extremely talented player and he has been to a finals. He bears the bulk of the criticisms. Boozer is the only guy I see quitting, no one else.

Even Detroit, with a garbage team, who have all mailed it in, wins on the road. Against good teams. Sometimes you have to will your team to victory. Since Tony has done that in the past and in the present he gets the nod.

[Cry Havoc]

Why when I say the Jazz have = talent does everyone pull the Duncan card? That is one player.

When you look at the entire roster, the Jazz are just as talented on paper. Yes Duncan is better than Boozer. But Okur is much better than Bonner. Millsap is much better than KT. Brewer is better than any wing the Spurs have. Ginobili is better than any sg they have, but then the Jazz have AK47.

If Deron is that much better than TP, he would be able to win on the road. He would be able to advance deeper in the playoffs.

Duncan >>>>> Boozer
Parker ~= Deron
Manu >>>>> anyone else on the Jazz

The NBA, especially in the playoffs, is not a game of 11 player teams. It's usually 8 players getting a huge majority of the minutes with a 9th player picking up garbage time.

When you have three dominant players like the Spurs have, that is basically all you need to win a title. But you usually need at least two superstars to win a title, unless you're incredibly solid 1-5 like the 04 Pistons were. This is a league dominated by putting decent shooters and fill-in guys around unstoppable scoring machines and letting them go to work.

Right now, the Jazz have one superstar, one borderline star in Boozer, and a collection of role players. AK-47 is just not a force in the playoffs. Brewer has promise but he's young and inconsistent. The Jazz have absolutely abysmal defense. They found every possible way to lose the game last night against the Lakers even though LA was GIVING them one at Staples. Boozer made one good play and around 8 horrible consecutive possessions. He is not even fit be mentioned as an "offensive force" when he can't even hold on to the freaking ball.

Again I pose the question to you: How would the Jazz be without Deron? How would the Spurs be without Tony? We'd still probably win 40+ games based on Duncan alone. The Jazz might not win 30.

[DPG21920]

Spurs without Tony would be a disaster, just like Utah without Deron. Who would run the point for the Spurs? Mason? He has proven inept, especially when game planned against. JV? Do I have to go there? Hill? Not a terrible player, but it is different being the man, especially for a rookie. Ginobili? He has proven you cannot play him a ton of minutes in the regular season or he will break down, plus he is not a great point guard.

Yes, Duncan/Parker/Gino > DWill/Boozer/Okur, but the difference between those three is just as close as the difference between Bowen/Finley/Bonner/KT < AK/Brewer/Millsap/Harpring

[Road Warrior]

Deron is a better all around point guard by definition but Tony is still a top 3 pg in the league and is a better fit for what the Spurs need out of that position. There.

[Lars]

D.Will is arguably the fourth best guard in the NBA, so probably not.

[Cry Havoc]

Spurs without Tony would be a disaster, just like Utah without Deron. Who would run the point for the Spurs? Mason? He has proven inept, especially when game planned against. JV? Do I have to go there? Hill? Not a terrible player, but it is different being the man, especially for a rookie. Ginobili? He has proven you cannot play him a ton of minutes in the regular season or he will break down, plus he is not a great point guard.

My point is that the Spurs have threats other than Tony. The Jazz have no premiere players outside of Deron.


Yes, Duncan/Parker/Gino > DWill/Boozer/Okur, but the difference between those three is just as close as the difference between Bowen/Finley/Bonner/KT < AK/Brewer/Millsap/Harpring

No, it's not. Out of Boozer, Okur, AK, Brewer, Millsap, and Harpring, you have 1.5 players who play good defense. Brewer is a very good defensive player, and AK plays defense SOMETIMES. Everyone else is a sieve, and worthless at attempting to keep the other team from scoring.

Bowen is still an elite defender as evidenced by the last two games, KT is very good and even Finley is pretty decent, better than anyone on the Jazz outside of Brewer and AK. And of all those players, only Deron and maybe Millsap have decent BBall IQs. The Spurs team is loaded with cerebral players.

[DPG21920]

Duncan/Gino and Okur/Boozer score about the same amount of points. Do not act like the Jazz have no scoring threats.

What are you talking about AK/Harpring not playing defense?

[Cry Havoc]

What are you talking about AK/Harpring not playing defense?

Wow. You're right. I guess they just didn't get almost 240 points hung on them in 2 freaking games. :lmao


Duncan/Gino and Okur/Boozer score about the same amount of points.

Do you actually watch games? Because you're using statistics to make your point and it's just not correct. Okur has never, at any point on this Earth, created a shot for himself in the NBA. Boozer might get decent position and score once in a while, but most of the time these guys are scoring simply because Williams is going nuts and making the defense cave around him.

There is absolutely no real knowledgeable NBA fan on this EARTH who would look at Okur and Boozer in an actual game and say that they are offensively equal to Manu and Duncan. None. Zero. You're equating a 7 foot slug of a three point shooter and an iron handed lummox who has one good move in the paint with the greatest PF of all-time and one of the most efficient NBA guards in history. Wow.

Boozer and Okur would average half what they do without Deron feeding them wide-open looks all game long.

[DPG21920]

Spurs defense has been getting shredded all year, worst defensive team in the Duncan era, :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Spurs defense has been getting shredded all year, worst defensive team in the Duncan era, :lmao

You're totally right! The Spurs are giving up 93 points per game this year. They're horrible for a Spurs team defensively.

Meanwhile, the lockdown Jazz are giving up over 100 points per game. :lol

Anything else you want to contradict yourself with?

[DPG21920]

You're totally right! The Spurs are giving up 93 points per game this year. They're horrible for a Spurs team defensively.

Meanwhile, the lockdown Jazz are giving up over 100 points per game. :lol

Anything else you want to contradict yourself with?

Adjust for pace. Spurs are giving up 102 per 100 possessions and Utah 104, not that big of a difference.

[DPG21920]

Wow. You're right. I guess they just didn't get almost 240 points hung on them in 2 freaking games. :lmao



Do you actually watch games? Because you're using statistics to make your point and it's just not correct. Okur has never, at any point on this Earth, created a shot for himself in the NBA. Boozer might get decent position and score once in a while, but most of the time these guys are scoring simply because Williams is going nuts and making the defense cave around him.

There is absolutely no real knowledgeable NBA fan on this EARTH who would look at Okur and Boozer in an actual game and say that they are offensively equal to Manu and Duncan. None. Zero. You're equating a 7 foot slug of a three point shooter and an iron handed lummox who has one good move in the paint with the greatest PF of all-time and one of the most efficient NBA guards in history. Wow.

Boozer and Okur would average half what they do without Deron feeding them wide-open looks all game long.

Did I say Okur/Boozer are better offensive players? I said they score about the same amount of points. Which is true. Utah has options. You act like they have no one that can score.

[Cry Havoc]

Adjust for pace. Spurs are giving up 102 per 100 possessions and Utah 104, not that big of a difference.

:lol I love this logic. Does pace not factor into the scoring of Boozer and Okur as well? Or does pace only affect stats that you are trying to support?


Did I say Okur/Boozer are better offensive players? I said they score about the same amount of points. Which is true. Utah has options. You act like they have no one that can score.

Again, adjust for pace. And you're ignoring what I said. Okur and Boozer do not create for themselves much at all. They are incapable of scoring at a high clip without being given fantastic opportunities by Deron.

I didn't say the Jazz players are incapable of scoring. But you are equating one decent post player and one glorified 3 point shooter with the GOAT at his position and one of the clutchest players in the NBA and then stating that the Utah role players make up for it. I happen to completely disagree with you on the basis that the Jazz have no one who can even hope to step up in a playoff game outside of Deron, and the last 2 games in L.A. have illustrated this fact rather starkly.

[DPG21920]

Yes smart ass, adjusted for pace the Jazz score more than the Spurs. So how can that be possible if the Spurs have so much more offensive talent?

[DPG21920]

:lol I love this logic. Does pace not factor into the scoring of Boozer and Okur as well? Or does pace only affect stats that you are trying to support?



Again, adjust for pace. And you're ignoring what I said. Okur and Boozer do not create for themselves much at all. They are incapable of scoring at a high clip without being given fantastic opportunities by Deron.

I didn't say the Jazz players are incapable of scoring. But you are equating one decent post player and one glorified 3 point shooter with the GOAT at his position and one of the clutchest players in the NBA and then stating that the Utah role players make up for it. I happen to completely disagree with you on the basis that the Jazz have no one who can even hope to step up in a playoff game outside of Deron, and the last 2 games in L.A. have illustrated this fact rather starkly.

LMAO that Boozer and Okur cannot step up in a playoff game, at least offensively. You are seriously underestimating their offensive ability. You can disagree all you want, but players outside of a big 3 most definitely matter or else the Spurs, who have the best big 3 would win every single year. When you start moving down the roster, the Jazz are comparable and there is no argument you can provide either statistically or logically to refute that.

No where did I say they were better. I simply said and have proven that they are at least comparable as a complete team talent wise.

[Cry Havoc]

Yes smart ass, adjusted for pace the Jazz score more than the Spurs. So how can that be possible if the Spurs have so much more offensive talent?

:wow :wow :wow You mean a team with one of the two best point guards in the NBA is scoring a lot of points? But that clearly has NOTHING to do with Deron's ability to collapse defenses, does it? Nope. Take Deron Williams off the team and they'd still be just as potent as they are now. :lol

:rollin You clearly aren't even able to understand what I've been saying all along, so I don't see what the point of continuing this discussion is.

[DPG21920]

:wow :wow :wow You mean a team with one of the two best point guards in the NBA is scoring a lot of points? But that clearly has NOTHING to do with Deron's ability to collapse defenses, does it? Nope. Take Deron Williams off the team and they'd still be just as potent as they are now. :lol

:rollin You clearly aren't even able to understand what I've been saying all along, so I don't see what the point of continuing this discussion is.

Take TP off the team and Duncan and Ginobili would just rape the west. :rollin

I see what you are saying. You are saying Deron is so good that he makes that team what they are. That without him, Okur and Boozer and all their other scorers would suck.

I think you are undervaluing them. I am not saying D-Will does not make them better, but like I said, as an entire team, complete, they have equal talent.

[Cry Havoc]

You can disagree all you want, but players outside of a big 3 most definitely matter or else the Spurs, who have the best big 3 would win every single year.

Except that's exactly the case that most often happens. The NBA is dominated -- absolutely DOMINATED -- by the superstars of the league. That's why you have a player like Michael Jordan get 6 titles with only Scottie Pippen, one other decent player, and a host of role guys who fill a need.

2008 - Pierce, Garnett, Allen
2007 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2006 - Wade, Shaq, Mavs D :lol
2005 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2004 - Sheed, Billups, Rip (I already stated that this was an exception)
2003 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2000-2002 - Shaq, Kobe, Fox
1999 - Duncan, Robinson, Elliott
Most of the 90s - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Kukoc/etc.
1980s - Bird, McHale, Parish & Magic, Kareem, Worthy


:lol

Thanks for proving my point once again! :toast

[DPG21920]

A more fair question to illustrate my point as you are trying to do yours: If you take Duncan and Boozer off their respective teams, who is better?

[DPG21920]

Except that's exactly the case that most often happens. The NBA is dominated -- absolutely DOMINATED -- by the superstars of the league. That's why you have a player like Michael Jordan get 6 titles with only Scottie Pippen, one other decent player, and a host of role guys who fill a need.

2008 - Pierce, Garnett, Allen
2007 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2006 - Wade, Shaq, Mavs D :lol
2005 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2004 - Sheed, Billups, Rip (I already stated that this was an exception)
2003 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2000-2002 - Shaq, Kobe, Fox
1999 - Duncan, Robinson, Elliott
Most of the 90s - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Kukoc/etc.

:lol

Thanks for proving my point once again! :toast

:rollin All that proves is that most teams have big 3's now. Most teams in the playoffs (meaning teams that have some semblance of hope to win) have big 3's. It is the other players that make the difference when the teams big 3's are evenly matched.

LMAO at you thinking I proved your point.

[DPG21920]

Who has the best big 3?

[Cry Havoc]

Take TP off the team and Duncan and Ginobili would just rape the west. :rollin

I see what you are saying. You are saying Deron is so good that he makes that team what they are. That without him, Okur and Boozer and all their other scorers would suck.

I think you are undervaluing them. I am not saying D-Will does not make them better, but like I said, as an entire team, complete, they have equal talent.

I'm not saying they suck. I'm saying that most of their points, or a large percentage of their points, come from D-Will's ability to set them up for easy scores.

Take Parker off the Spurs, and how does that limit Duncan or Manu's abilities? They will still get theirs because they don't rely on Tony to create open looks for them. I will take Duncan 1 on 1 against any single post player in the league, even Howard, because Duncan is so efficient at breaking his man down and outworking him by using his intelligence to play better.

The same goes with Manu. He has more of an ability to create his own shot for himself than maybe anyone in this league outside of Kobe. When Manu is on, you can just sit back and let him go. He scored 24 (24!) points in a row by himself last year in a game. Boozer will never score 24 points in a HALF, let alone the 10 minutes Manu spent destroying the Wolves with no help from anyone else on the court.

I'm not saying Boozer sucks. He's a decent post player who plays no defense, and is the single biggest reason LA is up 2-0 right now. He mishandled 7 or 8 out of 9 possessions at one point. Okur is not a good player at all, and all he does is shoot 3s. He's never even heard of defense.

[DPG21920]

I know this is not a complete list, but if you look at how teams are constructed, they mostly have big 3's:

1. Phoenix - Nash, Shaq, Stoudamire
2. Boston - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
3. Utah - Williams, Boozer, Kirilenko
4. San Antonio - Duncan, Ginobli, Parker
5. Dallas - Nowitzki, Terry, Kidd
6. Houston - Ming, McGrady, Artest
7. Denver - Nene, Billups, Anthony
8. Detroit - Iverson, Hamilton, Wallace
9. Lakers - Kobe, Pau, Odom
10. Washington - Arenas, Butler, Jamison
11. Hawks - JJ, Bibby, Horford

That is not all of them, but all I could come up with quickly.

[Cry Havoc]

I know this is not a complete list, but if you look at how teams are constructed, they mostly have big 3's:

1. Phoenix - Nash, Shaq, Stoudamire
2. Boston - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
3. Utah - Williams, Boozer, Kirilenko
4. San Antonio - Duncan, Ginobli, Parker
5. Dallas - Nowitzki, Terry, Kidd
6. Houston - Ming, McGrady, Artest
7. Denver - Nene, Billups, Anthony
8. Detroit - Iverson, Hamilton, Wallace
9. Lakers - Kobe, Pau, Odom
10. Washington - Arenas, Butler, Jamison
11. Hawks - JJ, Bibby, Horford

That is not all of them, but all I could come up with quickly.

And guess what? The team that wins the title this year will likely be the team with the best big 3. This is fairly common knowledge among NBA fans. I'm surprised you are not aware of it.

[DPG21920]

Okur is a very good player and he does more than shoot. He is an excellent rebounder. TP creates a ton for everyone. Difference its that TP breaking down defenses and kicking does not lead to as many direct pop and shots.

Spurs move the ball a lot. Like Hockey assists. When TP goes into Duncan, Duncan pounds it so it takes away the assist from TP although he is the one who gave the entry pass.

[redzero]

Boozer doesn't need D-Will to make him better. Boozer does his own thing.

[DPG21920]

And guess what? The team that wins the title this year will likely be the team with the best big 3. This is fairly common knowledge among NBA fans. I'm surprised you are not aware of it.

Don't be a d-bag. I obviously know big 3 plays a huge role. But like a said, the best big 3 does not always win. Why? The difference from year to year of surrounding talent.

[Cry Havoc]

Don't be a d-bag. I obviously know big 3 plays a huge roll. But like a said, the best big 3 does not always win. Why? The difference from year to year of surrounding talent.

It wasn't meant as an insult. This is something that's been discussed on many basketball shows, as well on Spurstalk a number of times. Go back to 1980. Count forward to 2008. I'm willing to bet that over 80% of the time, the team with one of the two best "big three" in basketball wins the title. My point is that outside of D-Will and (if he's having a good game) maybe Boozer, the Jazz's big three is non-existent. They have no one outside of Williams that can dominate a defense by themselves with almost no help. The Spurs have three players, the Lakers have two players with a third who is consistently very good, the C's have three players, and the Cavs have LeBron James, who is a rare player that makes all other comparisons irrelevant.

When is the last time Boozer has taken over a meaningful game, put his team on his shoulders, and willed the Jazz to victory? You guys think that decent role players strike fear into the hearts of other teams? You think they're going to worry about Brewer (who's probably the 3rd or 4th best player on the Jazz) going off for 25 in a playoff game? It's not going to happen. That whole team is based upon what Deron Williams gets for them.