Harvey: Rose to Barry: The Sound of a Big Contract [Archive]

TMTTRIO

03-22-2005, 02:01 AM

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/bharvey/stories/MYSA032205.1D.COL.BKNharvey.16005ba42.html

Buck Harvey: Rose to Barry: The sound of a big contract
Web Posted: 03/22/2005 12:00 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News

NEW YORK — After missing all five shots he took, Brent Barry missed something else Monday.

Bose headphones and an iPod. Both vanished from the Madison Square Garden visitor's locker room.

"The hits just keep coming," Barry said with some sarcasm as he filled out a report.

The hits may have just started. Barry lost Tim Duncan one night and music the next, but it's his jumper that he needs to find if he wants to stay in San Antonio.
Malik Rose knows.

This franchise doesn't like to overpay.

Today, the Spurs have other concerns, namely the next four weeks. If they play this way without Duncan, could they lose the division? Or simply self-respect?

They came apart against an ordinary team Monday night, and never did 1999 seem more distant. Only one player suited up from that championship team, and he played for the Knicks.

Rose played with typical title energy, too, overcoming his own first-half emotions.

"I was worried somebody in New York was going to put out a hit on me," Rose joked afterward. "It looked like I was trying to throw the game." :lol
The Spurs looked that way in the second half, going nearly a full 12 minutes without a basket. For that, Barry deserves no more blame than anyone else.

"We stopped moving the ball," said Manu Ginobili, "and we stopped playing defense. That had nothing to do with Tim not being here."

Oh, it had something to do with it, and Ginobili at 50 percent had something to do with it, too. Without either All-Star at full strength, the Spurs need exceptional contributions from each of the others.
They instead got just a half from Tony Parker, inconsistent play from the big men and the usual from Barry. He went 0 for 5, and that makes two games and 40 minutes without a point from him.
Herb Williams, the Knicks' coach, said he wanted to "make their guards make shots."

The Spurs signed Barry last summer to do just that, and most in the league saw him as the perfect fit. He's led the league in three-point shooting before, and there was a season when he was one of just two players who shot better than 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range and 80 percent from the free-throw line.

Now he's under in each, dramatically in field goal and 3-point shooting. Barry continues to shake his head in amazement — as if someone broke into the locker room and stole his shooting touch, too — and teammates have been supportive.

Rose said Monday what the Spurs say. "Brent is just trying too hard," Rose said. "And I think he will be fine. He's one guy who knows how to shoot."

Hedo Turkoglu went through the same early last season. And though Turkoglu found his stroke, he struggled against the Lakers at the end, and that was his lasting impression. If Barry does the opposite — if he steps up when it counts in the playoffs — his regular season will be forgotten.

He still can change everything, just as he changed an overtime win in Phoenix with two late 3-pointers.
But as long as the Spurs lost Monday night to a player they dumped for contractual reasons, money enters into Barry's equation. The Spurs gave Barry almost $20 million over four years last summer, a gamble considering Barry's age, and the Spurs have yet to see much in return.

He works on defense, but he's still ordinary. His basketball IQ is solid, but it's not as if he breaks down defenses. So when his set shot misses, how much is he worth?

Monday, not much. Without Duncan, the Spurs needed some veteran poise. Beno Udrih is expected to be up-and-down as a rookie. But Barry? He's expected to help, to make a few plays, to maybe take over for a time.

Devin Brown, earning the near minimum and playing with a sore back, instead did that.

Barry knows better than anyone it's his turn, just as Turkoglu knew last season. "We can't wait for Tony and Manu to save us every game now," Barry said. "We have to find ways to contribute."

And if he can't? With the contract he has? Someone in New York knows what can happen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 02:13 AM

Come on Brent, the whole city is rooting for you.

Dex

03-22-2005, 02:14 AM

This article depresses me.

Why oh why did I have to be a Barry bandwagoner.

:pctoss

I'm STILL praying for him to prove me right.

Mr. Body

03-22-2005, 02:27 AM

I feel awful for Barry. He's been terrible. I can hardly watch anymore when a three goes up.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:35 AM

exstatic

03-22-2005, 02:40 AM

Pressure exists, but some players feel it, and some don't. He's thinking about it too much. He just needs to develop short term amnesia, like an NFL cornerback who gets burned.

Previous to this year, pretty much every shot that he took had roughly a 50% chance of going in. He needs to take to heart the coinflip lesson: if you flip heads 10 times in a row, the odds of tails coming up on the next flip are still only 50%. The coin has no memory. Make or miss, he needs to forget every shot after he takes it.

timvp

03-22-2005, 02:43 AM

Instead he found himself getting yanked off the court like a rookie for defensive reasons still early in the season, and forced into competing with a rookie and an NBADL guy for minutes and just standing there shooting threes...

If Devin Brown is an NBDL guy, what does that make Brent Barry? WNBA?

And stop acting like he's just standing there shooting threes. He's shooting threes at close to the same rate that he did last season. Last season, 59% of his shots were three-pointers. This season, 63% of his shots are three-pointers. If he would have shot ten (10) less threes this season, he'd be at the same ratio he was last season.

Your boy is sucking.

Tek_XX

03-22-2005, 02:44 AM

How is he trying to hard? Dudes probably been playing basketball for 20 years and he can't handle a little pressure. Maybe he's just past his prime

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:10 AM

If Devin Brown is an NBDL guy, what does that make Brent Barry? WNBA?

And stop acting like he's just standing there shooting threes. He's shooting threes at close to the same rate that he did last season. Last season, 59% of his shots were three-pointers. This season, 63% of his shots are three-pointers. If he would have shot ten (10) less threes this season, he'd be at the same ratio he was last season.

Your boy is sucking.

TimVP, why do you refuse to admit that the Spurs are structured totally different than the Sonics?

Don't give me that it's pressure...he's made the playoffs before...his team nearly beat us in 02.

That's just too lazy of an analysis...and it just doesn't add up.

And that ratio may be improving RECENTLY due to some starts but it was way out of kilter to previous years for most of the season...

And furthermore...Brent Barry is not my boy...I have my reasons for defending him but people with LONG TERM MEMORIES would remember I was a Jack fan and raised hell when we lost him...

This summer I said(talking with your wife I believe) we needed a pesky white guy since we lacked a proven clutch shooter...and I said Barry has too much game for the pesky white guy role and thought Jon was more suited to that role...but this guys problems are not choking and being a wuss...you don't choke for an entire season.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:18 AM

I know everybody loves Devin and Beno and while I trust Devin to an extent, he makes me nervous at crunchtime... I do not trust Beno because he's a rookie who is in the midst of the longest season of his career and he has way overachieved this season and he does disappear at the end games contrary to what everyone says.

Since we don't have a proven big game shotoer our team is strongest having multiple guys that can come off the bench and hit 3's...Saturation bombing. I just don't trust Beno and Devin to do that role by themselves game in and game out.

Barry is not going to Hedo us because his shooting is already down...if we get Hedoed it's going to be Beno and Devin that do it to us.

I don't want to get Hedoed again :(

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:21 AM

but this guys problems are not choking and being a wuss...you don't choke for an entire season.

Choking or sucking, whatever you want to call it (no sexual innuendos intended) the ball isn't going into the basket. What do you want the Spurs to do to help him along in the system?! Don't say that they never run plays for him or expect him to just spot up .. they don't.

timvp

03-22-2005, 03:24 AM

I wanted Jon Barry too.

It's pressure ... plain and simple. I know you want to deflect it to something else, but the guy has never been a winner. What is the best team he was ever on? I bet his college basketball teams lost, too.

Don't give me that it's pressure...he's made the playoffs before...his team nearly beat us in 02.

:lmao

He's sucked in those playoffs.

2002 Regular Season
PTS: 14.4
AST: 5.3
REB: 5.4
FG%: .508

2002 Playoffs
PTS: 7.8
AST: 2.8
REB: 4.6
FG%: 41.2%

Nice try.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:25 AM

Barry is not going to Hedo us because his shooting is already down

That doesn't make sense. Last year Hedo started out slow, had a stellar January, and faded from there. This year Barry started out slow, had a stellar January, and is fading from there. The difference is that Hedo played some D and could be used to guard long 3's, and Barry is obviously a better passer than Hedo.

Why should we think Barry is going to sack up in the playoffs and come through in the clutch?

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:25 AM

I hold TimVP and Chump responsible for this crap...either they conspire with Pop to fuck me over on minutes bets and season record predictions or else they have some kind of psychic link and are one with the Pop... -2.3% wrongness has Pop's fingerprints all over it.

I am leaning towards the psychic link thing...and since they have both had a season long hateon for Barry I think it has been transmitted to Pop, Barry is sensitive and knows he is disliked and it is hurting Barry's feelings and making him miss shots.

To solve this I think TimVP and Chump should start saying nice things about Barry. It's on them.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:28 AM

I hold TimVP and Chump responsible for this crap...either they conspire with Pop to fuck me over on minutes bets and season record predictions or else they have some kind of psychic link and are one with the Pop...

I am leaning towards the psychic link thing...and since they have both had a season long hateon for Barry I think it has been transmitted to Pop, Barry is sensitive and knows he is disliked and it is hurting Barry's feelings and making him miss shots.

To solve this I think TimVP and Chump should start saying nice things about Barry. It's on them.

timvp liked the Brent Barry signing more than I did when it happened. He isn't a Barry hater. But he's always been skeptical if he was going to be able to come through when it matters.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:33 AM

I wanted Jon Barry too.

It's pressure ... plain and simple. I know you want to deflect it to something else, but the guy has never been a winner. What is the best team he was ever on? I bet his college basketball teams lost, too.

:lmao

He's sucked in those playoffs.

2002 Regular Season
PTS: 14.4
AST: 5.3
REB: 5.4
FG%: .508

2002 Playoffs
PTS: 7.8
AST: 2.8
REB: 4.6
FG%: 41.2%

Nice try.

Nice try? They lost that series 2-3 in a 5 game series...thank god for Tim Duncan.

They just happened to be playing a pretty stout defensive team(us) that held a 4th quarter lead in every game against LA the eventual champions...and oh yeah...he had pretty decent defender on his azz for that series that goes by the name of Bruce...

What would your PCT's be with Bowen whupping on you?(and he did whup up on Barry in that series)...take the Bowen factor into account and Barry played well. Certainly wasn't a choke as Tim Duncan was the only reason we won.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:38 AM

Don't act like Seattle did a great job and played the Spurs to the brink. Do you remember that David Robinson and Tim Duncan were missing for parts of that series?

Tim Duncan will miss Game 4 of the Spurs' playoff series against the SuperSonics because of the death of his father, leaving the team without both of its formidable 7-footers.

David Robinson will not be in uniform for the third straight playoff game after straining his lower back late in the regular season.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:40 AM

That doesn't make sense. Last year Hedo started out slow, had a stellar January, and faded from there. This year Barry started out slow, had a stellar January, and is fading from there. The difference is that Hedo played some D and could be used to guard long 3's, and Barry is obviously a better passer than Hedo.

Why should we think Barry is going to sack up in the playoffs and come through in the clutch?

Because Barry has played well in the clutch all season...depending on your definition of clutch...late in games he has been clutch all season and RVB posted the stats to back that claim up.

As for Hedo...I thought Hedo played well once he started and sucked worse than Barry prior to it...And Hedo wanted to get paid. That was all he was worried about.

And Barry doesn't need to start...

Barry's best season as a 3 point shooter he came off the bench...

timvp

03-22-2005, 03:41 AM

timvp liked the Brent Barry signing more than I did when it happened.

I did? I know I wanted Stephen Jackson more than Brent Barry. I've always thought Jon Barry was better than Brent Barry for the Spurs.

After the signing, I figured it'd be a good move because Brent Barry was going to come to town burning down the nets. What the Spurs lost in defense, they made up for with a shooter and a good passer. The Spurs had added someone with a high basketball IQ!

Or so I had thought.

:shootme

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:42 AM

Don't act like Seattle did a great job and played the Spurs to the brink. Do you remember that David Robinson and Tim Duncan were missing for parts of that series?

Yeah...that's why I said thank god for Tim Duncan, because they beat us every game Duncan missed....so much for Barry choking. Take Tim Duncan off that team and we are the chokers.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:42 AM

I didn't say you loved the signing. I said you liked it more than I did. You wanted a lot of people more than you wanted Brent Barry, but I was just clarifying you weren't hating him from the get-go.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:43 AM

In any case...I think Bruce Bowen is a pretty good excuse for having a subpar shooting series...

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 03:44 AM

First off let me touch on the Devin Brown issue since he is always brought up in conversations about Brent Barry. Devin Brown is our most exciting, dangerous, hustling, scoring defensive player on the court for extended stretches of games. He also has no fear. If Popp tells him to get to the basket he does it. If Pop wants someone to shoot that three even with a hand in his face Brown will do it. He will do it every time. At this point in the season there is only one Spurs he could have been compared to and that was Malik Rose. He has the heart of a champion and the willingness to do whatever it takes. He has truck loads of pride but is 100% humble. There are quite a few players on this team who could learn a couple things from Brown.

Enough of that now back to the original subject.

Barry was brought in to do one thing and one thing only-make big shots in the playoffs. What he does in the regular seaosn means absolutely nothing. Barry only has to hit one big shot in the playoffs at the right time and all will be forgiven. Right now he doesnt have his touch but you can tell he wants it bad. I say with the playoffs getting so close its time to shorten the guard rotation and give Barry back up minutes at the PG position. That is where the great white hope can really shine. If you arent going to give him Tony's back up and crunch time minutes (since we all know Tony dissappears in the crunch) then give him Bowens so his only responsibility is to throw up corner 3's all day. Popp has to find a stable position and rotation for the guy though because as it is I dont even think he knows what position he is on the floor half of the time.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:46 AM

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 03:47 AM

In any case...I think Bruce Bowen is a pretty good excuse for having a subpar shooting series...

His lack of offensive production is usually more than made up for by his defensive effort. You dont need to score double digits as long as you are holding the other teams best scoring to ten points less than his average per game or making him shoot 10% worse.

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 03:48 AM

The Spurs can't afford to keep giving Barry more and more minutes. He gets blown by on defense and hasn't scored a basket in two games. He has to fight his way out of his "slump" or whatever on his own in whatever minutes he gets.

The Spurs cant afford to not give Barry minutes IMO because that is the only way he will break out of the slump. Shooters have to shoot to get their touch back. If Barry doesnt have his shot when we get to the playoffs, especially if Tim isnt healthy, its gonna look a lot like it did last year vs. the Lakers.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:49 AM

And I just remembered something else to dispel the pressure idea...

In 01 when the LA Lakers destroyed us( and did a good number on us during the regular season) and went 15-1 in the playoffs..the Sonics swept the Lakers that year. Those were big games to that team. I remember it now because that offseason I actually wanted the Spurs to go after Reuben Patterson.

timvp

03-22-2005, 03:59 AM

Yeah that proves it isn't pressure. :shootme

That was five years ago and he was a bench player who averaged under nine points a game. That doesn't prove anything.

I'm still searching for hope that Barry isn't folding under the pressure.

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 04:01 AM

I'm still searching for hope that Barry isn't folding under the pressure.

What pressure? He is a back up guard on the team who has had the best record in the league for a large majority of the season. Perhaps what he needs is more pressure?
:nerd

cqsallie

03-22-2005, 04:02 AM

Oh, just cut the crap! The Spurs sucked this time around and we're all desperately searching for someone to pin the loss on.
The truth be told, everyone - and I mean everyone - contributed to the loss. If you were watching the game, you could see where the defence failed here or there, and the offence failed big time.
I'd like to sit here at home, with my oh-so-powerful hindsight and start laying the blame. Does the name Stoudemire (sp?) cross your mind? While we're busily blaming the Spurs' defenders, we're just not giving credit where credit is due. Here comes this guy, all fired-up, nailing 22 points while our guys just stand around in wonderment. It appears that he was unstoppable - and of course we were blessed with the curse of a man scorned (Malike Rose).
If nothing, this game (as well as the preceding game) should prove that Tim Duncan is the MVP - if not the league's, surely the Spurs'. We just seem helpless without him...

timvp

03-22-2005, 04:05 AM

I bet his college basketball teams lost, too.

He led Oregon State to zero division championships and never led them to even the Sweet 16.

Pretty much what I suspected. I probably don't want to find their actual record.

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 04:08 AM

Has there ever been such a rucuss over a bench player in the history of the NBA? :)

whottt

03-22-2005, 04:08 AM

TimVP, if you want to see the definition of folding under pressure you need to rewatch what LA did to us in the WCF that year...We pretty much redefined the term.

How about the fact that he has never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs? With over half his shots being 3's? Including the year he played us and had Bruce Bowen defending him...

How about the fact that in 2000 he shot 40% against the Jazz and his team pushed the Jazz to the max in a series?

Is that a choke? We've never gone the max against the Jazz in a series.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 04:13 AM

timvp

03-22-2005, 04:16 AM

To clarify my previous post, I've found that Barry never even led his team to the NCAA tournament.

Anyways, I'm going to keep hoping Barry finds "IT" before the season ends. If he can start draining shots and provide the outside shooter that is sorely needed, I'll be more than happy to float down a river barge with Whottt at the end of the season.

texbumTHElife

03-22-2005, 04:21 AM

Barry just needs to get one of those head bands Devin wears.

Rummpd

03-22-2005, 04:44 AM

I think Kori is right on, Barry has to earn minutes period. Brown has been too good, and Beno usually too lately to have him steal minutes. In the playoffs rotations shorten = he keeps playing like this he may not even see the floor and lets worry about getting his confidence back next year.

cqsallie

03-22-2005, 04:50 AM

Buck is wrong about Barry's IQ...he's also wrong about Barry's versatility...

In NBA history there is one player who has lead the NBA both in 2point PCT and 3point PCT....and that's Brent Barry.

In NBA history there is one man who has been capable of winning a slam dunk competition and leading the NBA in 3point PCT...and that's Brent Barry.

You don't pull off that PCT trick without having a high basketball IQ and you don't pull off the other one without being versatile.

Comes to San Antonio and he turns into a scrub? There's just something wrong there and it's not all Barry.

We need to let him do more than just shoot threes...it's either that or else let this continue....

And I don't think this guy came here to just shoot threes either, this guy could have started for several teams(and it's a joke to think he still couldn't)...I imagine he was planning on backing up both guard spots and no one foresaw the emergence of Beno...

Instead he found himself getting yanked off the court like a rookie for defensive reasons still early in the season, and forced into competing with a rookie and an NBADL guy for minutes and just standing there shooting threes...

That's not coddling...that's anti coddling, that's not even being treated like a normal veteran, that's being made into the team bitch, and since shooting is confidence I don't think it was the wisest move in the world to do that.

If it makes anyone feel better I am pretty sure Barry regrets the day he signed that contract.
Oh, my god, Whott! That's exactly the way I feel! Barry's being played like a rookie - an unproven, maybe-he-can-do-it, off the bench type. If I were Brent Barry, I would be really upset by this turn of events. Now, you and I may count ourselves among those few who were up on the Brent Barry thing, while others just thought he was a plug-in, on-demand performer. But, what real athlete performs on-demand, off the bench on a second's notice?
For some reason, we seem intent on driving Brent Barry into the deep slime of NBA players who failed to perform a la Malik Rose. What's up with this shit?
Why aren't we getting the very best out of our very best players? Geez! I don't know! Can't figure it out! It eludes me!
BS - big time! :smokin

whottt

03-22-2005, 06:53 AM

Allie, no one wants to cut Barry any slack because his job requires him to be on an island all alone under tremendous pressure and the spotlight is going to be on him.

Texbum mentioned how he couldn't believe all the fuss over a bench player...but it's this role that always seems to decide how our season goes...after these playoffs Barry will either be an all time Spurs hero or an all time Goat...there will be no inbetween. Right or wrong...that's the way it is for this role in SA it seems.

I think most fans saw how Hedo got babied all year last year and in the long run the Spurs weren't doing Hedo any favors...I think everyone wants to avoid a repeat of that and so they don't want to see Barry get cut any slack...a lot of Spursfans have burned fingers :). I almost think this was Pop's philosophy...but I don't think Barry was ever even given a chance to get comfortable before Pop started playing hardball with him...and I think his adjustment to the team has bee a particularly brutal one because of it. Everyone is pretty hard on him...but if you look at his face you can see he is being harder on himself than anyone(another way he is different than Hedo, who just didn't care).

ShoogarBear

03-22-2005, 08:02 AM

Whatever you want to say about how Barry has or hasn't been handled, one fact is unalienable: he misses wide open shots.

A veteran shooter with any balls should at least be able to do that, no matter what else has been going on. c.f., Steve Kerr.

ggoose25

03-22-2005, 08:40 AM

i am tired of people making excuses for barry

who cares if he had to endure the wrath of pop early in the season and may not have been coddled into the spurs system properly. barry is not an infant. hes a professional basketball player that is expected to perform.

I think the debate as to whether pressure is affecting him is valid, but its not external pressure that affects him. All season long Barry, as well as other Spurs, has indicated that his shooting funk is primarily a mental block. He is not playing with any kind of confidence and since the game is 90% mental, his attitude is seriously impeding his game.

Players (especially shooters) that have succeeded in the Spurs system are those that have an inner-pride and confidence that can withstand Pop's abrasive nature. C.f. Jax, SKerr, Manu, Parker, and D. Brown (in last years LA series).

Spurs players that have choked or disappared have always had talent, but not enough balls to say, "I dont care wtf is happening at the moment... I know I'm a good player. Fuck Pop, I'm going to get mine and stick it in his ass." Cf. Barry, Hedo, Daniels.

If players expect any kind of special treatment from Pop, some sort of confidence booster like a Dad watching his son's shitty CYO performance, they are looking in the wrong place. Barry is an adult that is expected to rely on his veteran shooting record and experience to support his confidence no matter what he's shooting at the moment. If he cant dig deep and pull himself out, then he's playing for the wrong team because he wont ever get it from the Spurs coaching staff.

Que Gee

03-22-2005, 08:49 AM

He led Oregon State to zero division championships and never led them to even the Sweet 16.

Pretty much what I suspected. I probably don't want to find their actual record.

Are you kidding me? Is this Walton Buys Me Off?....Worst thing you have ever written on this site. Gary Payton never led that "powerhouse" Oregon State to either as well...Or did you have to go look that up to?

boutons

03-22-2005, 09:00 AM

"He just needs to develop short term amnesia"

Sun is shining, sunny all day, 80F in San Antonio, my bamboo, palms, bananas are all loving it, LIFE SUCKS!! Somebody please tell me what I saw last night was a bad dream!

Just tried to escape reality, watched Men In Black on cable. THOSE MIB's WON!!

What Barry needs is for Tommy Lee Jones to flash him with a Neuralizer.

Come on, Brent, you've been playing this game well for 20 years. How TF can you forget how?

How TF can ALL of the Spurs forget how to play basketall at even the NBDL level?

Useruser666

03-22-2005, 09:25 AM

When will Barry begin starting? :lol

picnroll

03-22-2005, 09:36 AM

When will Barry begin starting? :lol
As soon as the Austin team starts their season.

baseline bum

03-22-2005, 09:38 AM

In 01 when the LA Lakers destroyed us( and did a good number on us during the regular season) and went 15-1 in the playoffs...

The Spurs were 3-1 vs LA in the regular season that year.

Jimcs50

03-22-2005, 09:53 AM

The Spurs were 3-1 vs LA in the regular season that year.

But, injuries again cost the Spurs that year in the playoffs.

wildbill2u

03-22-2005, 10:41 AM

Barry's lack of shooting touch baffles all of us. I can't remember any shooter with Barry's credentials going through such a terrible season long slump.

I know he's looking at film and practicing hard. Has anyone checked his vision? Changes in eyesight can be quick sometimes and hard to self-diagnose.

It's simply hard to believe that it's his psyche that is the culprit for all these months.

MannyIsGod

03-22-2005, 10:43 AM

Look, man, Whottt. You're so grasping for straws here. Everyone can see it, but you.

ca®lo

03-22-2005, 10:52 AM

although barrys in a slump right now, most of us can see hes just feeling all the pressure.

but if he's already cracking up on something like this.. how much more pressure would there be in the playoffs?

cant believe barrys turnin into another hedo :(

boy.. we really shouldnt have let jackson go.

leemajors

03-22-2005, 11:01 AM

jackson was not worth the money he wanted.

CHAMPS AGAIN

03-22-2005, 11:29 AM

Maybe BARRYS problem is numbers like instead of #17 he should use #31 like in past 5 seasons.

Barry use 31 instead of 17

fonzy16

03-22-2005, 12:44 PM

Whott,
The problem Barry has IMO, has nothing to do with the Spurs "system" or Popovich or playing time, or coming of the bench etc. The problem is in his head. If you are one of the gratest shooters and cant hit an open three or an open 2pointer... the only problem is the problem in his the head. Maybe the emegence of Beno has something to do with it, maybe barry is putting pressure on himself by thinkin: if the rookie can do it why cant i? i really expected he would gain some confidence in the time when he was starting games instead of injured ginobli.
Now I hope finds his stroke in the heat of the playoffs, when other hands start trembling. He proved in some games (houston) he can score in the crunch, when neccesery.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 01:35 PM

His inability to perform under pressure is nothing new. It's been the story for his entire career. The last time he was in the playoffs, his scoring and assists production declined by 50%. His shooting percentage dropped by 10. And while Bowen contributed to his struggles, Bowen isn't responsible for his dismal performances in every other playoff series he's appeared in.

He's shot 50% in a season before, but his playoff field goal percentage is 39%. That kind of decline can't be attributed to good defense. He's played in several playoff series.

His numbers in practically every major statistical category have declined in the playoffs. And while numbers can't reveal the whole story, they can tell us something if a player puts up similar numbers again and again.

I'm rooting for Barry to perform. I would love to see him help the Spurs win. If he is the finals MVP I'll be the happiest Spurs fan of all. But he has a history of not coming through on the biggest stage. Whottt, you can come up with twenty excuses to explain it, but they can't justify his futility in every series.

He has simply underperformed in the playoffs.

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:36 PM

Look, man, Whottt. You're so grasping for straws here. Everyone can see it, but you.

Pointing out that he's never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs is grasping at straws?

It's not the pressure...

There's probably less pressure in SA than there is anywhere....

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:40 PM

.235%

That's Manu's 3 point PCT from last years playoffs...did he fold under the pressure?

Brodels

03-22-2005, 01:42 PM

.235%

That's Manu's 3 point PCT from last years playoffs...did he fold under the pressure?

He's not really a pure shooter to begin with. The difference is that Manu played fairly well in just about every other aspect of the game. Barry hit some threes in the playoffs and stuck it up in every single other area.

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:42 PM

.336%

That's Stephen Jackson's 3 point PCT from the year we won the title...

Did he fold under the pressure?

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:43 PM

He's not really a pure shooter to begin with. The difference is that Manu played fairly well in just about every other aspect of the game. Barry hit some threes in the playoffs and stuck it up in every single other area.

I see...and the fact that he was playing a far superior team(the Jazz and us) and trying to win as the lower seed in every series wouldn't have anything to do with that right?

Brodels

03-22-2005, 01:45 PM

.336%

That's Stephen Jackson's 3 point PCT from the year we won the title...

Did he fold under the pressure?

He also took some terrible shots and that contributed to his percentage.

You can compare Barry to anyone else but it isn't going to make the problem go away. Manu and Jackson and Barry are different kinds of players. Manu and Jackson both have had big moments in the playoffs. They've both raised their games for extended stretches in the playoffs. Barry hasn't done that.

You're not going to get anywhere by trying to show that others have struggled at times in the playoffs, too. We know that. It's just that Barry has struggled in every series. And in almost every aspect of the game.

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:48 PM

Brodels

03-22-2005, 01:56 PM

I see...and the fact that he was playing a far superior team(the Jazz and us) and trying to win as the lower seed in every series wouldn't have anything to do with that right?

In my mind, no. He played on some decent teams, and he had a chance to do some damage against some good defenders but also against some average ones.

Even if you're the lower seed, your clutch players step up every once in a while. I'm sure you can think of twenty more excuses, and I don't have time to address them all. I personally feel that such a drastic drop in play in every single playoff series cannot be attributed to who he was playing against. He was counted on to be a big time player in the playoffs. Players with clutch ability step up. Sometimes they still lose, but they step up.

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:56 PM

He also took some terrible shots and that contributed to his percentage.

You can compare Barry to anyone else but it isn't going to make the problem go away. Manu and Jackson and Barry are different kinds of players. Manu and Jackson both have had big moments in the playoffs. They've both raised their games for extended stretches in the playoffs. Barry hasn't done that.

You're not going to get anywhere by trying to show that others have struggled at times in the playoffs, too. We know that. It's just that Barry has struggled in every series. And in almost every aspect of the game.

So basically stats don't matter with Manu and Jack but they do with Barry?

The double standard is clear...

Case in point...TimVP says Barry has never won anything and uses your stat argument so therefore he's not a winner...

Stephen Jackson has never made the playoffs without being on the Spurs and he never won anything in college either...so I guess the pressure gets to him too.

whottt

03-22-2005, 01:58 PM

Tim Duncan's PCT's dropped against the Jazz....a clear case of choking.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:01 PM

Yeah? And guess what, he's not struggling in every other aspect of the game right now he's struggling as shooter...

.231%

That's what Steve Kerr shot the year we won our first title...I guess the pressure got to him too.

I'm only minimally concerned with what he's doing right now. I'm concerned with what he's going to do in the playoffs. But his performances of late are troubling because I think it's important for him to have a sustained stretch of good basketball or he isn't even going to get an opportunity to play in the playoffs.

And again, you're not proving anything by comparing Barry to other players in other situations. Kerr didn't have the same role on the team, didn't bring the same skill set to the table, and had a different history of playoff performances. I've got to agree with the poster who claimed that you're really grasping as straws now.

What next? Are you going to cite some statistic from 1968 from some random bench player to try to show that Barry might perform in the playoffs?

What has Barry done to convince you that he'll perform in the playoffs? I think you must be privately admitting that you're basing your hope on very little while ignoring some pretty substantial stuff.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:07 PM

So basically stats don't matter with Manu and Jack but they do with Barry?

The double standard is clear...

Case in point...TimVP says Barry has never won anything and uses your stat argument so therefore he's not a winner...

Stephen Jackson has never made the playoffs without being on the Spurs and he never won anything in college either...so I guess the pressure gets to him too.

Jackson isn't the shooter that Barry is. He takes stupid shots sometimes. He plays out of control sometimes. He turns the ball over and chokes away games sometimes. And you're right that Jackson has never won anything without Duncan. That doesn't mean that he folds under pressure. It means that he's played on some crappy teams. Frankly, he doesn't really have much playoff experience outside of San Antonio.

Stats do matter some, but they don't tell the whole story. It's undeniable that Jackson struggled for long stretches in the playoffs. But he's remembered fondly by many because he hit some really big shots in the playoffs, too. Stats do matter with Jackson, but it's easy to look beyond them sometimes if you're doing other things that show you're doing some things to help your team win.

Don't confuse my argument with LJ's. I'm not claiming that Barry sucks because he hasn't won anything. I'm saying that he's been in many playoff circumstances where he's had an opportunity to raise his game and he hasn't done it. Just to clear things up, I don't agree with LJ. I'm looking at what Barry has done in the situations that he's been in.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:10 PM

Tim Duncan's PCT's dropped against the Jazz....a clear case of choking.

I'll return to the thread and respond if you actually bother to read what I write. It's clear that your pulling selective pieces of the argument and molding them how you wish to.

Tim Duncan's shooting percentage against one team in one situation has nothing to do with Barry's overall poor play in every playoff series in a different situation. You know that. You're just in too deep to admit it now.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:12 PM

Um...how come when everyone rips Barry they cite his 3 point PCT and say he was just brought here to be a shooter and nothing else matters...yet when they want to gloss him as a choker in the playoffs they use everything but 3 point PCT and act like that doesn't matter?

I am not the one with contradictions and easily disproved assumptions in my argument...

The reason people are saying he is folding under the pressure NOW is because of his 3 point PCT and no other reason...

I just posted statistics showing that he has never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs, to point out that the pressure obviously didn't effect his 3 point in his previous series against great teams, and you say I am at grasping at straws?

On top of that I sense a lot of arrogance on Spursfans acting like his teams have done crappy when in fact...Tim Duncan was the only thing that saved us one time and in another series he did better against our nemesis than we ever did..even with Duncan and Robinson in his prime

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:16 PM

Um...how come when everyone rips Barry they cite his 3 point PCT and say he was just brought here to be a shooter...yet when they want to gloss him as a choker in the playoffs they use everything but 3 point PCT?

I am not the one with contradictions and easilyt disproved assumptions in my argument...

The reason people are saying he is folding under the pressure is because of his 3 point PCT and no other reason...

I just posted statistics showing that he has never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs to point out that the pressure obviously didn't effect his 3 point in his previous series and you say I am at grasping at straws?

On top of that I sense a lot of arrogance on Spursfans acting like his teams have done crappy when in fact...Tim Duncan was the only thing that saved us one time and in another series he did better against our nemesis than we ever did..even with Duncan and Robinson in their prime

And I'm saying that he can't be counted on in the playoffs because he's played poorly in the playoffs every single time he's been there. Nothing more, nothing less. His game has delcined dramatically in the playoffs. That's a fact. Frankly, I don't really care what percentage he's shooting if he's playing poorly in every other area.

I haven't contradicted myself yet. He's shot poorly in the playoffs from everywhere else on the floor, and he's played poor basketball when it has counted most. His three point shooting percentage is only a small part of the equation.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:18 PM

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:20 PM

Bottom line is that there is absolutely no statistical correlation between your playoff arument and Barry's struggles this season....One does not prove the other and they are two separate arguments that contradict each other...You can argue one or the other but when you try to argue them both you most certainly are contradicting yourself.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:28 PM

What's even more disappointing is that he hasn't shot the ball well for most of the season. That's what makes it worse for me. We know that he's a poor performer in the playoffs. The one thing he's always been able to do, playoffs and regular season both, is shoot threes. Now that he's struggling with that, he doesn't have much value at all.

He leads all our regular guards in assist to to ratio and fewest TO per game(and per 48), he's averaging more assists per game than Beno..he leads the entire team in 2 point PCT and is 4th in PPS.

And believe it or not, according to some efficiency ratings(per 100 posessions) he has been the best offensive player on the team for most of the season....

So since you don't want to talk about 3 point PCT...tell me what stats you are using to say he is underperforming in every other aspect of the game...

Oh wait...you do want to talk about 3 point PCT now...you just don't want to talk about it when using your playoff argument...

Could you pass me that straw please...

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:30 PM

Bottom line is that there is absolutely no statistical correlation between your playoff arument and Barry's struggles this season....One does prove the other and they are two separate arguments that contradict each other...You can argue one or the other but when you try to argue them both you most certainly are contradicting yourself.

It certainly has some value though. In the past, Barry has always been able to hit the three when he's struggled in other areas. Now he's still struggling in other areas, still hasn't proven that he can perform in the playoffs, and can't shoot the ball.

The point is that he had some limited value in past playoff series because he could hit open threes. Unless his ability to shoot the ball improves soon, he really won't have much value.

I have plenty of evidence to show that he'll struggle in the playoffs. I don't know for certain that he won't come out of his shooting slump. So you have somewhat of a point. There might not be a true correlation, but I think it's certainly appropriate to be concerned that he hasn't shot the ball well in a long while.

It's not a contradiction, really. It's simply knowing that he's always struggled in the playoffs combined with observing that he's struggling now in the only area in which he's been dependable in the past. I thought he might hit some open threes in the playoffs at the very least, but his performances of late have me somewhat concerned.

He's stuggled in his most recent playoff series (and all of them, for that matter). He's struggled during the most recent (current) regular season. That's all I'm saying. Those two things combined don't leave me feeling good about Brent Barry and what he can offer to the team the remainder of the way.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:32 PM

What other areas of the game is he struggling in right now? Be sure and check his stats before you do this...

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:38 PM

He leads all our regular guards in assist to to ratio and fewest TO per game(and per 48), he's averaging more assists per game than Beno..he leads the entire team in 2 point PCT and is 4th in PPS.

And believe it or not, according to some efficiency ratings(per 100 posessions) he has been the best offensive player on the team for most of the season....

So since you don't want to talk about 3 point PCT...tell me what stats you are using to say he is underperforming in every other aspect of the game...

Oh wait...you do want to talk about 3 point PCT now...you just don't want to talk about it when using your playoff argument...

Could you pass me that straw please...

I'm not shocked that his assist to turnover ratio is solid. He plays with one group of inexperienced guards and another group of somewhat reckless guards. I never said he was turnover prone.

I've watched him struggle defensively. I've watched him look uncomfortable in the offense. I've watched him make bad passes. There is a reason why he's sat on the bench a lot this season. If you're claiming that he hasn't struggled, you have a very skewed perspective on things.

Are we disagreeing about that? Should I mark it down that you feel he's given the Spurs exactly what they've expected and that he hasn't struggled this season? If that's your argument, we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.

Anyone who has watched the team this season has seen Brent not know when to shoot. We've all seen him struggle. We can compare his past regular season numbers with his playoff numbers and they actually mean something because he played with the same team both in the regular season and in the playoffs. The circumstances were similar.

We don't really have anything to compare his current situation to. He hasn't played a reserve role on one of the best NBA teams for a coach that emphasized defense. But I see him struggling when I watch the games. If you think he's met expectations and hasn't struggled, just say so.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:42 PM

It certainly has some value though. In the past, Barry has always been able to hit the three when he's struggled in other areas. Now he's still struggling in other areas, still hasn't proven that he can perform in the playoffs, and can't shoot the ball.

The point is that he had some limited value in past playoff series because he could hit open threes. Unless his ability to shoot the ball improves soon, he really won't have much value.

I have plenty of evidence to show that he'll struggle in the playoffs. I don't know for certain that he won't come out of his shooting slump. So you have somewhat of a point. There might not be a true correlation, but I think it's certainly appropriate to be concerned that he hasn't shot the ball well in a long while.

It's not a contradiction, really. It's simply knowing that he's always struggled in the playoffs combined with observing that he's struggling now in the only area in which he's been dependable in the past. I thought he might hit some open threes in the playoffs at the very least, but his performances of late have me somewhat concerned.

He's stuggled in his most recent playoff series (and all of them, for that matter). He's struggled during the most recent (current) regular season. That's all I'm saying. Those two things combined don't leave me feeling good about Brent Barry and what he can offer to the team the remainder of the way.

Yeah? And Manu in Jack struggled in certain aspects of the game in the playoffs as well....

I just don't think you guys are being fair to this guy...

What you fail to notice about his 3 point PCT's in the playoffs, compared to the others I mentioned....

He wasn't the one that had a dominant bigman drawing a double team to get him open...

MannyIsGod

03-22-2005, 02:42 PM

Barry was brought in to be a SHOOTER.

He's not Rasho who can get away with clanging his every shot because he contributes on the defensive end. Yes, he runs a nice pick and roll, but other players do that just as well (or nearly as well for your sake) and contribute on the defensive end.

Yes, Steve Kerr coudln't buy a bucket his first season here. He had much the same problems. And guess what? He rode the pine.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:43 PM

We obviously disagree about the kind of season Brent is having. You wouldn't be arguing with me if you really felt that he was struggling. Since you think that he hasn't struggled and that he's met expectations, I can see how you would feel that he would perform in the playoffs. If you're happy with what he's giving us now, we'll simply have to disagree. I'm not satisfied with his performance, and combine that with his traditional playoff struggles and I don't have confidence in his ability to help the team.

I'll leave it at that. We'll just disagree.

MannyIsGod

03-22-2005, 02:44 PM

He'll get on the floor in the playoffs. He'll get his shots for a game or 2, and if he hits them, he'll get more. If he doesn't, he'll ride the pine.

But, there is no reason to expect that to occour based on this seasons performance. I like his game, but he's just not hitting shots and thats what they need to justify playing him.

Nikos

03-22-2005, 02:44 PM

The entire thing with Barry is he is simply not filling the need that he was brought in to fill. That is to simply make open perimeter jumpers. The other stuff was a bonus, and could be an incredible bonus provided he begins to hit shots. But if he keeps shooting blanks he likely won't make any more of a difference on defense than Devin Brown does.

Barry is efficient on offense in the sense he avoids turnovers, creates assists, and hits at a decent percentage. But if the shooting is not there, then Pop is naturally going to get itchy to play Devin Brown considering he has proven to be a solid defender and can score at times. And with Pop's propensity towards playing defenders first its sort of understandable.

It is tough to swallow right now, I would like to see Barry contribute to some regular season wins right now. He has not played good basketball that much lately. But the skill set is there. I hope he figures it out.

Ultimately I want him to simply make open shots in the playoffs when it counts. With Tim Duncan. If he can do that, the team will fulfill it's potential.

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:49 PM

We don't really have anything to compare his current situation to. He hasn't played a reserve role on one of the best NBA teams for a coach that emphasized defense. But I see him struggling when I watch the games. If you think he's met expectations and hasn't struggled, just say so.

I think he's been the best passer on the the team the entire season, and I think our offense has been better when he is getting big minutes the entire season(and being allowed to handle the ball) I think he's been unfairly criticized and maligned this entire season...not by the fans here on this board...but by Pop....I think Pop's quick hook with him has fucked up his confidence...as it would anyone trying to fit in on this team after spending 7 years on a totally different style team and expecting to be a valued member of team but actually being treated like the rookies jock strap carrier...

I think when he was playing with confidence earlier in the season our team was looking to be one of the dominant teams in NBA history...and then everyone got on his ass because of his D...which was fucking stupid since we were on pace to set the NBA record for margin of victory, opp APG, Opp FG% and PPG allowed...I think that fucked him up...and I don't think he knows what the hell the Spurs want from him....it seems to be spot up shooting and defense...which makes the Spurs the dumbasses.

and it's not just Barry either...Horry and Malik had this problem too because they could be playing their asses off and Pop would DNCP them in a loss...

whottt

03-22-2005, 02:57 PM

Ultimately I want him to simply make open shots in the playoffs

And obviously he has done that in every other playoffs series(and he probably wasn't open that often with a guy like Bruce Bowen on him)

Brodels

03-22-2005, 02:58 PM

I think he's been the best passer on the the team the entire season, and I think our offense has been better when he is getting big minutes the entire season(and being allowed to handle the ball) I think he's been unfairly criticized and maligned this entire season...not by the fans here on this board...but by Pop....I think Pop's quick hook with him has fucked up his confidence...as it would anyone trying to fit in on this team after spending 7 years on a totally different style team and expecting to be a valued member of team but actually being treated like the rookies jock strap carrier...

I think when he was playing with confidence earlier in the season our team was looking to be one of the dominant teams in NBA history...and then everyone got on his ass because of his D...which was fucking stupid since we were on pace to set the NBA record for margin of victory, opp APG, Opp FG% and PPG allowed...I think that fucked him up...and I don't think he knows what the hell the Spurs want from him....it seems to be spot up shooting and defense...which makes the Spurs the dumbasses.

and it's not just Barry either...Horry and Malik had this problem too because they could be playing their asses off and Pop would DNCP them in a loss...

That could be part of the problem. But Pop isn't going anywhere. Maybe it isn't fair to Brent, but if he's not able to produce with what he's being given, he doesn't really have a role. I'm not saying that I like how Pop has handled him, because I don't, but I also think that Brent has failed to fully take advantage of the opportunities he's had.

ggoose25

03-22-2005, 03:01 PM

I think he's been the best passer on the the team the entire season, and I think our offense has been better when he is getting big minutes the entire season(and being allowed to handle the ball) I think he's been unfairly criticized and maligned this entire season...not by the fans here on this board...but by Pop....I think Pop's quick hook with him has fucked up his confidence...as it would anyone trying to fit in on this team after spending 7 years on a totally different style team and expecting to be a valued member of team but actually being treated like the rookies jock strap carrier...

I think when he was playing with confidence earlier in the season our team was looking to be one of the dominant teams in NBA history...and then everyone got on his ass because of his D...which was fucking stupid since we were on pace to set the NBA record for margin of victory, opp APG, Opp FG% and PPG allowed...I think that fucked him up...and I don't think he knows what the hell the Spurs want from him....it seems to be spot up shooting and defense...which makes the Spurs the dumbasses.

and it's not just Barry either...Horry and Malik had this problem too because they could be playing their asses off and Pop would DNCP them in a loss...

I completely agree with you. The Spurs had no idea Barry needed to be coddled like a WNBA shooting guard on the Seattle Storm. By now, RC and Pop should know not to pick pussies when they are hunting for free agents in the offseason.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:03 PM

That could be part of the problem. But Pop isn't going anywhere. Maybe it isn't fair to Brent, but if he's not able to produce with what he's being given, he doesn't really have a role. I'm not saying that I like how Pop has handled him, because I don't, but I also think that Brent has failed to fully take advantage of the opportunities he's had.

Devin Brown and Beno are better spot up shooters than Barry...if that's all you want then bench Barry. I'll personally be interested in finding who the new scapegoat will be.

But once you do that don't expect shit in the playoffs when you bench this guy for the first time in his career..unlike Kerr he doesn't have 3 rings of confidence...I know, we wouldn't want to coddle him...

And then we find out what my deepest fear is...

You say Manu's not a shooter? Well neither are Devin and Beno...they are more like Hedo as far as shooters go.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:06 PM

I completely agree with you. The Spurs had no idea Barry needed to be coddled like a WNBA shooting guard on the Seattle Storm. By now, RC and Pop should know not to pick pussies when they are hunting for free agents in the offseason.

As long as you realize the blame lies with Pop I can handle the rest of your dumb take.

Obviously Steve Kerr needed to be coddled too his first season here...

Brodels

03-22-2005, 03:09 PM

Devin Brown and Beno are better spot up shooters than Barry...if that's all you want then bench Barry. I'll personally be interested in finding who the new scapegoat will be.

But once you do that don't expect shit in the playoffs when you bench this guy for the first time in his career..unlike Kerr he doesn't have 3 rings of confidence...I know, we wouldn't want to coddle him...

And then we find out what my deepest fear is...

You say Manu's not a shooter? Well neither are Devin and Beno.

That's not all I want. I want him to be able to play well and make a difference within Pop's schemes. They aren't going to change. Shooting the ball well is part of that, but it isn't the only thing. It seems like common sense to me. If a player can play well within the system, play him. If he can't, bench him. It would be very helpful if Pop would do some things differently, but I fear that it isn't going to happen.

And as you can probably tell, I never expected Brent to do much in the playoffs anyway. As we've already discussed, his playoff struggles have been well documented.

Manu isn't a pure shooter. Neither is Brown. Barry hasn't been that this season, either. I'm not confident in his ability to 'flip the switch.'

But I disagree with you about Beno. He's a pure shooter. He's got a really nice stroke and can hit from anywhere.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:18 PM

But I disagree with you about Beno. He's a pure shooter. He's got a really nice stroke and can hit from anywhere.

The comparison to Hedo isn't to say that they will choke like Hedo...only that Hedo wasn't really a shooter and we tried to use him as one.

Beno...he's played like one this year... but every pre draft scouting report I read on him said he wasn't a shooter...in any case...he's still a rookie, and I don't care how good a shooter he is he has played way over his head this season.

But once Barry gets benched then leave him on the bench and keep those struggles off court...and this means playoffs too...because this guys confidence will be shot...and he will be shit. And the Spurs handling of him has basically destroyed his confidence in every other aspect of his game.

Turning Barry into total shit will probably generate more celebration on the board than winning a title would have...

Personally I'd rather win a title than have reasons to hate Barry...obviously that's a minority opinion on this board. So let's make sure we don't coddle him...and let's make sure he knows he's dogshit.

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:33 PM

One last thing on the Beno and Devin thing...RVB posted this statistical data on what Beno, Devin and Barry have done in clutch situations this season(according to 82 games.com):

"Clutch Moments" defined as the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime, where neither team was ahead by more than five points.

The following is a comparative table for the 3 players being discussed in this thread.

Team Player Min PER dPER Diff +/- Rating
SAS Barry 41% 38.0 4.9 33.1 -8 31.2
SAS Udrih 18% 0.8 24.0 -23.2 +15 -14.9
SAS Brown 39% 14.6 35.0 -20.4 -15 -24.2

and before you piss on that formula know that it rates Manu as one of the clutchest players in the NBA.

If this doesn't prove the double standard in labeling Barry a choker than I don't know what does...not to mention guys like TPark and TimVP saying he makes bad passes when in fact he is the most sure handed passer on the team.

So take a look at what Beno and Devin have done in crunch time...and remember it was you guys that wanted it that way.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 03:39 PM

But once Barry gets benched then leave him on the bench and keep those struggles off court...and this means playoffs too...because this guys confidence will be shot...and he will be shit. And the Spurs handling of him has basically destroyed his confidence in every other aspect of his game.

Turning Barry into total shit will probably generate more celebration on the board than winning a title would have...

I just don't think he's fit in very well this season, so it doesn't really matter to me if his confidence becomes shot. He's not exactly tearing it up right now, so what will a loss of confidence change?

I think Pop needs to continue to give him some minutes. If he figures out how to fit in (or, conversely, if Pop decides how to use him) he'll be very valuable. I just don't see Pop changing very much, so it's on Brent. He either needs to become what everyone was hoping he'd become in the limited minutes he's given or he'll be underachieving. Maybe confidence isn't his strong point anyway. I don't really know. Something has caused him to struggle in the playoffs, and it isn't just nagging defense from Bruce Bowen for one series.

Personally I'd rather win a title than have reasons to hate Barry...obviously that's a minority opinion on this board. So let's make sure we don't coddle him...and let's make sure he knows he's dogshit.

And 98% of the people on this board would also rather win a championship too. When Hedo was coddled it had some negative results down the road. I don't think Pop should coddle Brent because it isn't good for the team, and more importantly, I don't think Brent needs to be coddled anyway. That's not the problem.

All I ask is that he take advantage of what's given to him. I don't hate him. I want to see him succeed and I've wanted that from day one. If he can play like he did in Seattle, the Spurs will be awesome. If he doesn't, I'm not going to hate him. But I'm not going to argue that he needs to get court time, either.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 03:44 PM

If this doesn't prove the double standard in labeling Barry a choker than I don't know what does...not to mention guys like TPark and TimVP saying he makes bad passes when in fact he is the most sure handed passer on the team.

The playoffs matter most. Your formula isn't going to change years of bad playoff performances. What's a better indicator? I'll take what he's done for his career in a particular situation as an indicator of what he'll do in the future in those situations. The formula shows that he's performed in the clutch during the regular season. And to an extent, he's done that. He's also done that in past seasons to some extent. Nothing new there.

And he does make bad passes. He makes good passes, too, but he makes as many bad passes as any of the other guards. He doesn't turn the ball over as much, but that's an entirely different statistcal category.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 03:45 PM

Just in case I didn't make myself clear enough, assist-to-turnover ratio does not accurately reflect a player's passing ability.

ggoose25

03-22-2005, 03:51 PM

im not saying not to coddle him. I just think you're being stupid for expecting Pop to and for everyone on the board to act like everything is ok... Oh poor baby Brent, Pop never bent over backward for him, ohhh he treats him like a rookie.

Well Barry never bitches about Pop's attitude because he knows hes expected to perform regardless, so I wish you would stop using it as a cop out defense. Why are you whining about Pop ruining Barry when Barry is an NBA veteran who knew what he was getting into when he signed the contract last summer.

Does Pop's mismanagement of the lineup frustrate everyone including Barry? Yes.

Would Barry play better if he got more minutes? Probably.

Should we rub Barry's back and say it was nasty Pop who screwed him and therefore accept his shitty season? Absolutely not.

He's a grown ass man who has accepted that he needs to hit shots pretty damn soon, or else he's off the rotation. The sooner you realize that recognizing why Barry is not playing well does not give you the authority to excuse him of his poor season, the sooner everyone will breathe a sigh of relief.

SKerr didnt shoot well his first season so he didnt play. Stop pushing for Barry to play more minutes when he's not even fulfilling the only role we brought him in for.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 03:53 PM

Blah blah blah blah blah blah

Now that Devin Brown is out, do you think your husband will be able to hit a shot, or will the streak continue to three games?

Brodels

03-22-2005, 03:55 PM

Now that Devin Brown is out, do you think your husband will be able to hit a shot, or will the streak continue to three games?

:lol

MannyIsGod

03-22-2005, 03:56 PM

:lmao

whottt

03-22-2005, 03:59 PM

Pop bent over backwards for Hedo, he started him while Hedo whined about not being able to play off the bench because he wasn't sure if he was going to get enough shot attempts....

Barry has never whined about one freaking thing this entire season, he's never pointed the finger or made excuses...and he has been more critical of himself than anyone...

And his problem isn't that he's whining about not getting enough shots...the criticism of him is that he doesn't take enough of them...

This situation could not be further from Hedo...and Barry and Hedo are two entirely different types players with entirely different goals and reasons for being here...

Barry can see the end of his career coming and he wants a fucking ring and he was willing to be become a backup to do it......Hedo wanted to go play for the 21 win Magic and get $$$$$$$...

...and while Pop is trying to fix things now...early in this season he wasn't coddling Barry...he played hardball with him and would yank his ass from games...even that one game where he got yanked for his bad passing(I think against NO)...it was his only TO of the game. Barry hasn't been coddled...I think Pop is trying to do that now though...but he didn't go into this funk for the same reasons Hedo did...

Hedo was a baby and he didn't want to come off the bench in a contract year...Barry has a contract and lead the NBA in 3 point PCT off the bench...he's not Hedo!

He might be Terry Porter *shuddder* but he's not Hedo.

whottt

03-22-2005, 04:04 PM

Now that Devin Brown is out, do you think your husband will be able to hit a shot, or will the streak continue to three games?

How can he be my husband when he's a WNBA player :)

My wife maybe...

timvp

03-22-2005, 04:19 PM

Are you kidding me? Is this Walton Buys Me Off?....Worst thing you have ever written on this site. Gary Payton never led that "powerhouse" Oregon State to either as well...Or did you have to go look that up to?

The hell are you talking about? Gary Payton led Oregon State to a Pac-10 championship in 1990. He also led the team to the NCAA tournament three times. Brent Barry never led Oregon State to nothing.

Next time, you might want to check your facts before you make a fool of youself.

whottt

03-22-2005, 04:23 PM

Just in case I didn't make myself clear enough, assist-to-turnover ratio does not accurately reflect a player's passing ability.

If you have more indepth stats then by all means post them....let's see what you got...

I have noticed that the more detailed the stat the better Barry looks statistically...and since I do that often I think that's a big reason I defend him from many of the criticisms...

If you have a stat you think more accurately reflects his passing ability, and I hope it doesn't come from your ass, then post it.

whottt

03-22-2005, 04:28 PM

The funniest thing about this argument is that if Barry was shooting 40% from three everyone would be all over his jock like they were Hedo last season and I would probably be on the other side of it against most everyone(like I was last season)...I'd be saying 40% doesn't mean he's clutch...remember Hedo.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 04:42 PM

If you have more indepth stats then by all means post them....let's see what you got...

I have noticed that the more detailed the stat the better Barry looks statistically...and since I do that often I think that's a big reason I defend him from many of the criticisms...

If you have a stat you think more accurately reflects his passing ability, and I hope it doesn't come from your ass, then post it.

I don't have anything better. But assist to turnover ratio is about as useful as rebounds when talking about passing ability.

With something like that, all you can do is watch and comrehend. I've seen Barry make some bad passes. No more than other players on the team, but no less, either. If you perceive things differently, that's fine.

Brodels

03-22-2005, 04:42 PM

whottt

03-22-2005, 04:53 PM

And I'm not totally convinced of it either...at the same time, I don't see anything that says he's a choker, what statistical data there is says otherwise, and I haven't seen any evidence of it this season either. And I've seen him play his best in our most intense games of the season.

He's definitely got issues but saying it's the pressure just doesn't sound right to me, because he's been on playoff teams before and San Antonio is like the least pressure filled market in the NBA...If I thought for sure he was a choker I would definitely not be defending him to this legth...The main reason I am not that high on Devin is because of the way he played in that Houston Game and in other crunch time moments...I hold them against him when talking clutchness and I would certainly do the same with Barry if he had done them...but what I have seen him do is come off the bench after sitting for the entire half and ice the game with two FT's...play well down the stretch against the Nets...and of course the Phoenix game. And I just don't think "pressure" explains the crappy performances against the really bad teams like the Bobcats.

On top of that I've seen this mofo beat us with a buzzer beating 3 pointer before...and playing(and possibly losing) with Gary Payton is pressure.

totalspurshomer

03-22-2005, 08:28 PM

Who would've thought when Brent chose the Spurs over the Rockets last summer that the Spurs would've been better off losing that recruiting race, and then trading for Jon Barry. At a much lower salary, Jon is doing all the things Brent does, or is expected to do, but at higher percentages and with a meaner disposition(white guy with attitude, as whott says :lol ).

It's amazing that the Spurs were looking to fill that nagging playoff weakness of finding outside shooting and found A(as in one) guy known for that, plus with other skills to boot. Success. :elephant Meanwhile, Houston's roster is left in shambles after the TMac trade, with no guards to speak of. Even counting their mistake of signing Ward, they have managed to rummage around the league and end up with Sura, Wesley, Barry, and James to go with TMac on the perimeter. And all of them at reasonable to cheap contracts, especially considering they can do more than just shoot jumpers.

What does this mean? Is the NBA not as sorely lacking shooters as we're led to believe? Are there plenty of these guys still out there on crappy teams or on someone's bench? Or did Rockets' management do an incredible in season job finding affordable, aggresive, hungry, team oriented role players to provide a perimeter game with depth? Not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4...in the same season?!?

Obviously the Spurs didn't need that many, given the depth and talent already here. The point is only that I'm surprised the Rockets were able to go out and get that many nice fits in one season. I thought finding guys like that was more of a needle in a haystack in today's NBA where dunking is the thing.

whottt

03-22-2005, 08:35 PM

We didn't even have to trade for Jon since he was a FA...and Hoiberg was available too...It's silly that we can't find a use for Brent Barry though...it's ridiculous.

Kori Ellis

03-22-2005, 08:36 PM

It's silly that we can't find a use for Brent Barry though...it's ridiculous.

We've found many uses for him. He just hasn't proven himself useful.

whottt

03-22-2005, 08:45 PM

I guess it just took the offensive geniuses in San Antonio to show the World that Barry really sucks worse than any player in NBA history, is the biggest choker in NBA history, and has absolutely no game, contrary to what every other season of his career seems to indicate. 20 million well spent and let's pat ourselves on the back. Who is the next guy we'll expose?

SequSpur

03-22-2005, 11:50 PM

Buck Harvey is the worst writer in San Antonio History.

AlamoSpursFan

03-23-2005, 03:09 AM

Come on Brent, the whole city is rooting for you.

I'm not rooting for him. I think he should be arrested for stealing Peter Holt's money.

whottt

03-23-2005, 03:38 AM

And that^^^^^^^^ should be the final word.

If anyone doubts who is on the right side of this...just know, if you are against Barry you are siding with the^^^^^^^^^CrackerJack Box Killer.

T Park

03-23-2005, 10:24 AM

He's not Rasho who can get away with clanging his every shot because he contributes on the defensive end.

Wow manny sees the light! JK manny thats exactly right.

If Brent Barry, was missing threes, but making 2 point shots, layups and going to the basket hard, and contributing defensively,

then I would honestly say, ya know what, his 3 is off, so what, hes contributing elsewhere.

But where else?? Defesnively he makes sponges look like sheetmetal.

his BBall IQ is overrated, he plays dumb at many times during a game, and he also does the absolutely maddening thing of driving to the basket, stopping 5 feet from the basket and passing OUT.

ARGGG SHOOT THE DAMN LAYUP BRENT.

In that respect, Brent will be getting big minutes tonight, and I hope to GOD he makes me look horrible and nails 4 of 7 from threes, makes some free throws, drives to the basket and lays the ball in.

THere are no shot blockers for the Pacers, so there will be clear sailing.

BRING IT TONIGHT BRENT WE WANT YOU TO PLAY WELL!!!! :)