Mother arrested for attempting to intervene in her 14-year old's decision to have abo

[travis2]

Mother arrested for attempting to intervene in her 14-year old's decision to have abortion (http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=23788)

Tuesday, March 22, 2005

By Joyce Morrison, Southern IL News Correspondent

For legal reasons, the names of the family and the 14-year old girl that are the subject of this story have been withheld at this time.

GRANITE CITY - A Sothern Illinois woman was arrested last week (March 17) after trying to intervene on behalf of her 14-year old daughter's effort to have an abortion. The girl was allegedly taken to an abortion clinic by the mother of the man allegedly to have impregnated the 14-year old.


According to the girl's mother, her 14-year old daughter was called off from school in Madison County by a woman posing as the girl's “grandmother.” The woman took the girl from her home only minutes before the girl’s mother returned home from work.


It was later determined that the woman who had posed as the "grandmother" to the school authorities was the mother of the male who had fathered the unborn child the 14-year old girl was carrying. The age of the male has not been released.


When the parents were notified their pregnant daughter was not at school, they suspected she had been taken to the Hope Abortion Clinic in Granite City. The parents and grandfather were the only persons authorized to request school absence for the fourteen year old female.


“My husband and I rushed to the abortion clinic where we saw our daughter’s name on the roster and the time she had checked in,” the mother said. She then went into the clinic and searched a room filled with young women awaiting abortions but did not see her daughter.


She took a seat near the main desk and said, “I was told I could not prove my daughter was there so I began calling her name. A medical tech at the clinic told me , ‘It’s your daughter’s rights, it’s her body. You have no rights.’”


After continuing to call out her daughter’s name and telling her “don’t do it,” authorities were called and the mother was arrested.


The 14-year old told her mother she could hear her but when she asked employees to give her mother a message, they came back to the room and told her that her mother had left.


Angela Michaels, of Small Victories Ministry, was tipped off as to what was happending at the Hope clinic. According to Michaels, she witnessed police placing the mother’s hands behind her back, taking her into custody. As the police were putting the mother in the squad car, she was crying out, “Please, please, help me...my daughter is in there.”


Michaels said, “Exactly one hour later at 10:35 a.m., the 14-year old emerged from the clinic looking disheveled. The 14-year old told us that employees kept her in a quiet room until the procedure was performed and she was told that her mother had left.”


Employees assured this girl on her departure, “No-one will ever know you were here, we’ll bury your records.”


In the meantime, the woman who had taken the girl for the abortion was slipped out the back door of the clinic.


The police in the community in which the family lives allegedly told the girl's mom that they couldn't intervene despite her making a charge that her daughter had been raped (by statute) because the charge was stale--7 weeks after the incident. They did tell the girl's mom that, while she had no right to stop the abortion, she did have a right to go into the clinic and speak to her daughter.


The parents are expected to file charges.


© 2005 IllinoisLeader.com -- all rights reserved

[MannyIsGod]

Weird situation. Do parents have a right to stop an abortion? I don't know how I feel about this, other than a lot of people seemed to have overstepped their bounds here. Especially the Clinic and the males mother.

I think the ultimate decision lies with the 14 year old regardless, but I think to hide her and giver that kind of information is beyond bad.

[travis2]

To me it's absolutely clear cut.

A 14-year-old, male or female, is under the legal responsibility of the parent(s). Period, end of story.

The belief that a 14-year-old has rights beyond their parents is a direct contributor to incidents such as these.


Manny, I know what you are trying to say, but I strenuously object to the phrase "overstepped their bounds". Apart from the philosophy question, I see the following crimes committed in the above story:

Kidnapping
False imprisonment
False arrest
False official statement
Statutory rape (this is a conditional, depending on Illinois law, which I don't know)

And those are the obvious ones. Depending on the laws concerning the abortion procedure for minors in Illinois, there is the abstract possibility of aggravated assault. Not so obvious in that case.

This was not "overstepping bounds". This was criminal.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, well, it was criminal, based on this article. But I'd like more information. Children do have rights that extend beyond the power of the parents, that's nothing new.

I don't think a 14 year old should have to have parental permission for an abortion.

[CrazyOne]

It's obvious you don't have a teenage daughter...

A child that age should never have medical procedures performed on them without the parents' consent. The school nurse can't give her a tylenol, but a stranger can take a child and have a dangerous medical procedure done? That's unfathomable.

[MannyIsGod]

Just to clarify, I agree with you on most of that Travis.

[travis2]

Yeah, well, it was criminal, based on this article. But I'd like more information. Children do have rights that extend beyond the power of the parents, that's nothing new.

I don't think a 14 year old should have to have parental permission for an abortion.

You and I are in utter and irreconcilable disagreement over this one.

[travis2]

Just to clarify, I agree with you on most of that Travis.

Thanks, and to clarify, our disagreement is on the matter of the abortion for the 14-year-old without notification.

[MannyIsGod]

It's obvious you don't have a teenage daughter...

A child that age should never have medical procedures performed on them without the parents' consent. The school nurse can't give her a tylenol, but a stranger can take a child and have a dangerous medical procedure done? That's unfathomable.

I don't agree with the tylenol thing either.

I'm consistent in my beliefs, based what I feel a persons rights are. I woudln't want my daughter have an abortion to begin with, much less one without my consent.

However, I also see bad situations arising from a parent forcing a child to have a child.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought out the "you're not a parent" card. That's fine, I don't think I've ever claimed to be. ;) I base my views on how I feel the government should protect and uphold certain rights, not based on emotion.

[Spurminator]

It's a tough call. I definitely think parents should be notified, but I'm not sure I believe they should have to consent. I guess it depends on whether you think forced pregnancy is closer to withholding Tylenol or to committing child abuse.

[ChumpDumper]

Probably should have intervened in her getting knocked up, but yeah, it's the parents' call. They are completely responsible for BOTH kids though, even til the granddaughter is 18. That is their responsiblity from their choice.

[Useruser666]

I would think that the daughter would have to have consent. I could see where a child could make decisions that conflict with their parents if that child was "divorced" from them legally. I believe that happened with that 15 year-old female tennis player. She got a court "divorce" from her parents so she could make her own choices and keep them from financially robbing her. I think 14 is too young to choose to have a medical procedure done. If you have the right to have an abortion at 14 then you should have the right to see an R rated movie or drink beer.

Blocking the mom from seeing her daughter is ridiculous. I would have liked to see them stop me from seeing her. The clinic will be in deep lawsuit shit and so will the school for allowing a stranger to pick her up. I would sue them first, then have my arrest record cleared, and the police department made to write a new set of procedures for cases like this.

[CrazyOne]

Manny, I'm not trying to say that "you don't have the right to that opinion if you haven't been through that experience" kind of thing... I'm just saying that just a little experience as a parent of a 14 year old child will clearly show you that a child like that is not prepared mentally or emotionally to make that decision nor deal adequately with the consequences.

[CrazyOne]

And I'm with User... I would sue the heck out of every single one of the people who did that to my daughter.

[billboardbill]

I'm with User also, let someone try and give my daughter an abortion at 14 without talking to me, there would be hell to pay........

[NameDropper]

Yeah, well, it was criminal, based on this article. But I'd like more information. Children do have rights that extend beyond the power of the parents, that's nothing new.

I don't think a 14 year old should have to have parental permission for an abortion.

If she doesn't need parental permission for such an enormous decision such as abortion she shouldn't need permission for shit and should be declared an adult.

[baseline bum]

This to me is clear cut. A woman has the right to choose what she does with her body. A kid usually isn't prepared for a decision like that. Then again, a kid isn't prepared to be a mother either.

[Spurminator]

I don't think some of you are considering the nine months of pregnancy that goes along with a parent preventing her child from having an abortion. We're not talking about a boob job here.

I hate the idea of a child getting an abortion, particularly against the wishes of her parent... But I'm also not comfortable with the idea of setting a LEGAL precedent of MANDATORY parental consent.

[Guru of Nothing]

I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought out the "you're not a parent" card. That's fine, I don't think I've ever claimed to be. ;) I base my views on how I feel the government should protect and uphold certain rights, not based on emotion.

I disagree with you. Do you really expect me to believe that many of your views are not based upon emotion? You are one of the most emotional posters here.

Irony is best when slow-cooked in a crock pot.

[MannyIsGod]

I disagree with you. Do you really expect me to believe that many of your views are not based upon emotion? You are one of the most emotional posters here.

Irony is best when slow-cooked in a crock pot.

I think you are confusing the passion I hold my beliefs with how those beliefs are established.

I am very passionate about my beliefs, but the standard I go by is not based on emotion.

[Experiment2100]

Employees assured this girl on her departure, “No-one will ever know you were here, we’ll bury your records.”

Give it a couple months, the mom will be put on trial the name will be public record.


In the meantime, the woman who had taken the girl for the abortion was slipped out the back door of the clinic.



That's just being a wuss, how did the girl get back if she was the ride


The police in the community in which the family lives allegedly told the girl's mom that they couldn't intervene despite her making a charge that her daughter had been raped (by statute) because the charge was stale--7 weeks after the incident. They did tell the girl's mom that, while she had no right to stop the abortion, she did have a right to go into the clinic and speak to her daughter.

If that's really the case there can be a serious suit against the abortion clinic for withholding their rights. I hope that's the case. 14 year olds can't drive but they can have abortions????


The parents are expected to file charges.
In the spirit of the season, nail the bitch to a cross. Figuratively of couse.

Moreso, I'd be interested as to who's idea this abortion was, a 14 year old is very impressionable, and it was HIS mom who took them there. It's just sad, 14 year olds don't have the mental faculties to comprehend what will happen later on, you have jerks like her boyfriend and her mom. I hope this don't lead to phychological problems for her. The sad thing is that the boyfriend gets off scot free no Statutory Rape or kidnapping, the most they could stick him with is cospiracy.

[Useruser666]

I disagree with you. Do you really expect me to believe that many of your views are not based upon emotion? You are one of the most emotional posters here.

Irony is best when slow-cooked in a crock pot.

Sorry Manny, but I also believe this about you.

[Uncle Donnie]

sad thing is that the boyfriend gets off scot free no Statutory Rape or kidnapping, the most they could stick him with is cospiracy.

Happens all the time. A lot of abortions by young girls are statutory rapes and no one does shit about it.

[Clandestino]

i just can't believe this young was allowed to do this w/o consent bc she is 14.. i could see them letting a 16 year old, but 14???

[MannyIsGod]

Sorry Manny, but I also believe this about you.

Believe what you want, but I challange both you and GoN, or anyone for that matter, to find a place where my opinion on something outside of the death penalty is based on emotions. And the death penalty is so so.

Sol, I'll repeat word for word.

I think you are confusing the passion I hold my beliefs with how those beliefs are established.

I am very passionate about my beliefs, but the standard I go by is not based on emotion.

[Clandestino]

this thread brings up the crazy age limits we have on things in the u.s. 21 drinking, 16 driving, 18 cigarettes.. you can join the military at 17, but can't even buy cigarettes or drink.. abortions at any age???

[MannyIsGod]

don't forget 21 for handguns, yet a rifles at 18.

It's ridiculous, they should make the age 18 or 21 for everthing.

[Clandestino]

what about shotguns?

but almost everyone can legally shoot a gun at any age...

[desflood]

Frankly, this whole story is just disgusting on so many levels...

[NameDropper]

Believe what you want, but I challange both you and GoN, or anyone for that matter, to find a place where my opinion on something outside of the death penalty is based on emotions. And the death penalty is so so.

Sol, I'll repeat word for word.

I think you are confusing the passion I hold my beliefs with how those beliefs are established.

I am very passionate about my beliefs, but the standard I go by is not based on emotion.

Isn't passion an emotion?

[xcoriate]

I agree with Manny, you cant burden the life of a 14 year old girl with a child just becuase someone sees it as the "right thing to do".

This is one time when the decision has serious repricusion on the child and not so much the parent for the rest of there lives.

Do you believe a child of 14 is able to raise a baby? Even if the grandparent is the primary caretaker, the actions were those of the 14 yo girl and the repricusions and decisions based upon it have to be hers as well.

The alcholol, guns driving argument holds no sway here either. These responsibilities are not on the same level. Having a beer (not 15) or going for a drive rarely effect your entire life. Having a kid does 100% of the time, its a given. It will have repricustions anyway but this way it has minimal impact, its about whats best for the girl not what is percieved to be the "ideal" in the parents mindset.

The parents shouldn't have let the kid get pregnant in the first place and secondly they should support whatever decision there own child makes.

[JoeChalupa]

I agree with Manny, you cant burden the life of a 14 year old girl with a child just becuase someone sees it as the "right thing to do".

This is one time when the decision has serious repricusion on the child and not so much the parent for the rest of there lives.

Do you believe a child of 14 is able to raise a baby? Even if the grandparent is the primary caretaker, the actions were those of the 14 yo girl and the repricusions and decisions based upon it have to be hers as well.

The alcholol, guns driving argument holds no sway here either. These responsibilities are not on the same level. Having a beer (not 15) or going for a drive rarely effect your entire life. Having a kid does 100% of the time, its a given. It will have repricustions anyway but this way it has minimal impact, its about whats best for the girl not what is percieved to be the "ideal" in the parents mindset.

The parents shouldn't have let the kid get pregnant in the first place and secondly they should support whatever decision there own child makes.

I think the repurcussions of having an abortion at such a young age could be tramatic as well. I don't how I'd react but I think I'd side on the side of life. I'm pro-choice but I'd tell her thatwe'd help her in every way we could to raise the child. But I'd be emotionally involved.

[Clandestino]

I agree with Manny, you cant burden the life of a 14 year old girl with a child just becuase someone sees it as the "right thing to do".

This is one time when the decision has serious repricusion on the child and not so much the parent for the rest of there lives.

Do you believe a child of 14 is able to raise a baby? Even if the grandparent is the primary caretaker, the actions were those of the 14 yo girl and the repricusions and decisions based upon it have to be hers as well.

The alcholol, guns driving argument holds no sway here either. These responsibilities are not on the same level. Having a beer (not 15) or going for a drive rarely effect your entire life. Having a kid does 100% of the time, its a given. It will have repricustions anyway but this way it has minimal impact, its about whats best for the girl not what is percieved to be the "ideal" in the parents mindset.

The parents shouldn't have let the kid get pregnant in the first place and secondly they should support whatever decision there own child makes.

adoption is also a choice. but like joe says, an abortion can and probably will affect this girl for the rest of her life as well.

and shooting a gun and drinking at young ages can also affect you for the rest of your life is something goes wrong.

regardless, she is too young for sex and also too young to be making her own decisions. she has proved that already.

[MannyIsGod]

The other ages have nothing to do with this case, but I hate the inconsistencies of our government.

Name, passion is actually not an emotion of it's own, but an intense expression of emotion.

I stand by the fact that I don't let emotion establish my beliefs. I'd love for someone to prove otherwise.

[Clandestino]

Name, passion is actually not an emotion of it's own, but an intense expression of emotion.

I stand by the fact that I don't let emotion establish my beliefs. I'd love for someone to prove otherwise.

i guess it is an emotion...

[desflood]

I agree with Manny, you cant burden the life of a 14 year old girl with a child just becuase someone sees it as the "right thing to do".

This is one time when the decision has serious repricusion on the child and not so much the parent for the rest of there lives.

Do you believe a child of 14 is able to raise a baby? Even if the grandparent is the primary caretaker, the actions were those of the 14 yo girl and the repricusions and decisions based upon it have to be hers as well.

The alcholol, guns driving argument holds no sway here either. These responsibilities are not on the same level. Having a beer (not 15) or going for a drive rarely effect your entire life. Having a kid does 100% of the time, its a given. It will have repricustions anyway but this way it has minimal impact, its about whats best for the girl not what is percieved to be the "ideal" in the parents mindset.

The parents shouldn't have let the kid get pregnant in the first place and secondly they should support whatever decision there own child makes.
1. There is such a thing as adoption.

2. Because their kid obviously made such good choices to begin with :rolleyes

[MannyIsGod]

Anyone, Anyone?

[desflood]

4 a (1) : EMOTION <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural : the emotions as distinguished from reason b : intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c : an outbreak of anger
5 a : ardent affection : LOVE b : a strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept c : sexual desire d : an object of desire or deep interest

http://63.240.197.92/cgi-bin/mwdictaj?passion

[MannyIsGod]

Well, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for someone to come up with an example of where I establish my beliefs on emotion.

Trust me, if I did that I'd be a pretty extremeist guy.

[Spurminator]

Except for erasing her memory, I think it's past the point where you can hope to spare her from emotional trauma.

[desflood]

Re: Sigh. I'm pro Death Penalty again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know what, this is my last post on the subject because I'm so sick of some people in here.

Those of you who claim to be christians, could learn a lot about what a real christian is like by listening to what Ashley Smith has to say.

You are the one's who have a thirst for blood and can't wait to have your vengence carried out like a pack of rabid dogs, yet I am the one who is warped? Well coming from you Clandestino, I'll take that as a compliment. Does not Christ teach you to love everyone? So would it be so wrong if I did love Brian Nichols?

I never said I felt good about any of the acts that he commited, and I simply expressed regret over this entire situation. But as much as you would love to think that the person who commited those crimes is entirely different from every one of you; that he is some sort of monster, he is not. He is a man, the same as most of the people here.

We all live in and support the world's most violent culture. We're off on white noble steeds saving the world from violence, when we can't even control what happens on our own soil.

Say what you will about me, but don't make me out to be warped because I dont want any part of any more blood being spilled, and because I choose to give my compasion more freely. Maybe if our society was more compasionate as a whole, we'd have less cases of this happening.
It seems to me, Manny, that your stance against the death penalty is due to your "compassion". You don't think that's more of an emotional belief than not?

[Useruser666]

don't forget 21 for handguns, yet a rifles at 18.

It's ridiculous, they should make the age 18 or 21 for everthing.

You don't the differences between rifles and handguns.

[Useruser666]

Manny, you are the definition of an emotional poster. The only people who post here with more emotion might be Whottt and Spurgal. I guess if you call Dan's agenda an emotion, he could qualify as 1 here.

[MannyIsGod]

Des, you are correct in that, and it's the one that I mentoined above. However, I have been on the record of saying that a mistake free death penalty system would have my psuedo support. Also, my lack of support for the death penalty stems from in large degree to the lack of real proof of any positive imfluences of capital punishment, so there are contributing factors to the emotional one. Generaly, I admit that is something that does have an emotional base, which is why I was quick to mention it above.

Chris, you fail to differentiate passionatly arguing your beliefs and establshing your beliefs on emotion. For instance, I'm personaly disgusted with hard core drug use. I've seen it's effects first hand, and it's horrible. I support legalization of all drugs. Does that sound like basing a belief on emotion to you?

[desflood]

Sorry Manny, didn't see that above. Distractions. But here, doesn't this sound a bit emotional to you? :lol

Re: No Money For You!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, he is living proof it should be done.

But don't sit there and give me shit when more money is being poored into the pockets of corporations by this government while college students and other people are given the fucking shaft.

It's our tax money too, asshole. And pardon me if I get tired of seeing it go to programs that many times do little more than line the pockets of those with pockets lined with gold already.

[desflood]

You must know, you can't say things this way and not be accused of being overly emotional at times! You're brighter than that.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm a very emotional and passionate person, but my support for student aid is primarily based on the large benefit it has on a society wide basis.

People can accuse me of being over emotional, and they're going to be right much of the time. Well, at least in how I present my side of things on this forum. However, in the proper situations some people in here might find it nothing short of amazing how well I control my emotions.

Also, there are rational reasons for everything I believe and stand for that outweight any emotional reason I would have for the stance. The Death Penalty is the closest one that might not have that, but it's no where near cut and dry. I do find it odd that people here can't differentiate between expressing your beliefs and actualy forming those stances.

Once again though, I'm probably arguing a pointless and unwinable arguement.

[desflood]

I'm a very emotional and passionate person, but my support for student aid is primarily based on the large benefit it has on a society wide basis.

People can accuse me of being over emotional, and they're going to be right much of the time. Well, at least in how I present my side of things on this forum. However, in the proper situations some people in here might find it nothing short of amazing how well I control my emotions.

Also, there are rational reasons for everything I believe and stand for that outweight any emotional reason I would have for the stance. The Death Penalty is the closest one that might not have that, but it's no where near cut and dry. I do find it odd that people here can't differentiate between expressing your beliefs and actualy forming those stances.
Once again though, I'm probably arguing a pointless and unwinable arguement.
But when you express yourself in such an emotional fashion, you have to expect people to assume that that is also how you form your opinions to begin with.

[Jekka]

1. There is such a thing as adoption.

2. Because their kid obviously made such good choices to begin with :rolleyes

Yes, there is such a thing as adoption, but you still have to go through a pregnancy and childbirth to get there, which is physically traumatic, and you have to give up a child which is emotionally traumatic as well - I'm adopted myself and have recently been exposed to letters from my birthmother at the time of the adoption - it's not easy - it's wrenching. You're not going to get away from the fact that it's a lose/lose situation - I don't think, however, that you can force your child to go through a pregnancy and childbirth - that's child abuse. Forcing them to go through an abortion would be the same thing. No, the girl hasn't made good choices - but that doesn't justify forcing her to have the child.

[desflood]

Then we're back to the whole choices issue. If a girl doesn't want to go through pregnancy and childbirth, she shouldn't get pregnant. Even at such a young age, she can figure that out. Being young doesn't automatically make you stupid.

[Clandestino]

i think it is funny that most of manny's quoted emotional posts are him responding to me...

[JoeChalupa]

I know that I can be an emotional poster sometimes.
I may respond with anger, humor, or sarcasm.

[Guru of Nothing]

Believe what you want, but I challange both you and GoN, or anyone for that matter, to find a place where my opinion on something outside of the death penalty is based on emotions. And the death penalty is so so.

Sol, I'll repeat word for word.

I think you are confusing the passion I hold my beliefs with how those beliefs are established.

I am very passionate about my beliefs, but the standard I go by is not based on emotion.

I disagree. I think there is a one-for-one relationship between emotion and passion.

You may distinguish between the two in your mind, but your words will always betray you.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with emotion, so long as it is built upon rational thought.

[Useruser666]

Manny, you are emotional in these forums as you are on the basketball court. :)

[iminlakerland]

You know my question here is...did the girl really want to have the abortion? Was she pressured into having an abortion? I dont think we will ever hear this child speak on it. WTF is the mom of the man doing taking her to the abortion clinic and checking her out of the school? Could she have not been forced to have this procedure done or pressured? Or convinced to do this. This story smells really fishy to me.