Need help with a Chris Paul argument

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Got into a disagreement at work today about the legitimacy of Chris Paul's first team all defense honor.

I say he's a way overrated defender, and racking up steals doesn't make you first team all defense. Rondo, Parker, Billups are better defenders IMO.

The others maintain that getting steals is defense, any coach would want a player to play the passing lanes the way CP does, and he is 1 on 1 as good as a defender as every other elite point guard in the league, and the steals just makes him take the cake. They said they've never seen Chris Paul get torn up an entire game by anyone.

Any angles I'm missing here, or am I just totally off base? Stat geeks welcome.

[Stump]

You're right, but I doubt you'll get any converts based on the way ESPN works as a hype machine for star players.

When arguing about what makes good individual defense on the peremeter, I usually say that the only thing a box score really shows is steals. It does not show if a foolish attempt of a steal allows the offense to get an easy basket, what kind of percentage shots a defender allows their opponent to make, if he forces bad passes, etc. In truth, a box score shows about 10% of the story.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah I kept saying how is steals the qualifier for being a good defender if you are being a detriment to your team's defense and giving up easy baskets by always going for steals.

[Ghazi]

cp3 gets 3 steals a game but there are 90-95 possessions a basketball game.

his on ball D dont impress me!

[thekingrobert]

he is just like Mario Chalmers excellent off the ball defenders who play the passing lanes very well but is horrible with his on the ball defense D-Wade was a better defender and should have gotten Paul's spot just like Duncan and Garnett should have swapped spots.

[Stump]

In my eyes, defense (from both the team and individual perspective) is about two things. One is to prevent the other team from taking shots, which is done through turnovers, blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds. The other is to make sure that the shots the other team DOES take are low% shots rather than high% shots. Both are vital to good defense.

In sports like soccer, the primary goal of defense is to prevent the other team from even taking shots at the goal. The goalkeeper is only there just in case the opponent gets through all them, so a team can still win if they have an average goalkeeper as long as they prevent shots from ever being taken. In basketball, however, the other team will still get shots off on 70%+ of possessions, so you MUST make sure they don't get dunks and layups all the time.

Chris Paul gets a lot of steals, which is great, but he is awful at forced low% shots, and therefore unworthy to be on the All-Defense team.

[xellos88330]

maybe they were looking at his drpg. It is decent enough for a pg.

[VI_Massive]

So who are the best starting defensive point guards in the league?

I think Rondo and Rafer Alston are quite good. Billups and Kidd aren't quite quick enough to be elite any more, but their size and general BBIQ make them pretty good.

Thoughts?

[all_heart]

Just say he may be able to steal the ball, but either way he's a little bitch!

[Killakobe81]

CP3 gets Torched by Dwill (when he gaurds him) and Tony Parker ...
I was a former HS coach steals are great but Rondo, Billups and Dwill are all better defenders ...hell Derick Rose is a better defender and he is a rookie

[jaffies]

Want some stats?

Allen Iverson:
1st in steals (season) in 2003, 2005. Top 5 in steals (season) 6 times, and has never finished out of top 10. Twice had 9 steals in one game. 2nd among active players in steals (total).

Total number of times voted All-NBA Defensive teams: 0.

[Sean Cagney]

Want some stats?

Allen Iverson:
1st in steals (season) in 2003, 2005. Top 5 in steals (season) 6 times, and has never finished out of top 10. Twice had 9 steals in one game. 2nd among active players in steals (total).

Total number of times voted All-NBA Defensive teams: 0.Surprised they did not ride Ivy too to All D awards from stats alone to get him on ALL D Teams, guess he is not he medie darling Paul is by any means since he is a thug and not about practice etc.

[kace]

Got into a disagreement at work today about the legitimacy of Chris Paul's first team all defense honor.

I say he's a way overrated defender, and racking up steals doesn't make you first team all defense. Rondo, Parker, Billups are better defenders IMO.

The others maintain that getting steals is defense, any coach would want a player to play the passing lanes the way CP does, and he is 1 on 1 as good as a defender as every other elite point guard in the league, and the steals just makes him take the cake. They said they've never seen Chris Paul get torn up an entire game by anyone.

Any angles I'm missing here, or am I just totally off base? Stat geeks welcome.

you're absolutely right.

Steals are a almost meaningless stat, like blocks (and i would add, in a lessen way, even assists are an overrated stats).

so, what if you got 3 steals and 3 blocks a game but get destroyed all the others possessions of the game ? steals and blocks are only few possession per game.

you can be the best defender and don't gamble in steals. you can be the best defendor, affect dozens of shots trajectories per game and shut down your man and still don't block too much.

CP3 is overrated on defense, as is CP3 and LBJ. That doesn't means they all are shitty defensors, but still way too much overrated just because they're hyped player.

a good article about it, on Wade, on ESPN:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-127/Is-Dwyane-Wade-an-Elite-Defender-.html

[cp3forever]

lol

[GSH]

you're absolutely right.

Steals are a almost meaningless stat, like blocks (and i would add, in a lessen way, even assists are an overrated stats).

so, what if you got 3 steals and 3 blocks a game but get destroyed all the others possessions of the game ? steals and blocks are only few possession per game.



Getting 2 or 3 blocks in a game is meaningless. But a guy who consistently gets blocks is a disruptive presence in the lane. Even when he doesn't get the block, he's making people alter their shots, or pull out and take jumpers. I'll take that guy on my team any day.

Steals are another thing altogether. When you go for a steal and miss, your team gives up easy points a very large percentage of the time. CP is a shining example of that. He gambles a lot, gets a lot of steals, and gets burned a lot. When the other guys on his team are healthy, they cover for enough of his misses to keep him from looking too bad. And when he gets the steal, the play always goes on the highlight reel.

No Spur player will ever get that many steals in a game, because anybody who gambles that much on defense would get sent to the D-League by Pop. Staying home and keeping guys in front of you will never make the highlight reels. And it won't get you any awards - just ask Bruce Bowen. Duncan is an exception, because he's a big man and because he kicks ass.

I agree with the people who have said that Billups would have been a better choice. But CP gets endorsement bucks, and Billups doesn't. The two things are related.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

No Spur player will ever get that many steals in a game, because anybody who gambles that much on defense would get sent to the D-League by Pop. Staying home and keeping guys in front of you will never make the highlight reels. And it won't get you any awards - just ask Bruce Bowen. Duncan is an exception, because he's a big man and because he kicks ass.



Agreed. In fact Manu is one of the best I've ever watched at stealing the ball, but he would never gamble the way AI or CP3 do, so his numbers will never be impressive.On another team, and with enough freedom and minutes, I think he could lead the league in steals per game.

We've always been like that, always near the bottom of the league in this category, just like in the offensive rebounds one, it's part of Pop's defensive philosophy.