Kobe Bryant is the most skilled player in the NBA

[DrHouse]

Maybe not the "best" anymore, but he's still the most skilled.

[ALVAREZ6]

sure, lebron's the best though. I don't think this is even disputable anymore.

[Yuushi12]

Maybe not the "best" anymore, but he's still the most skilled.

Dude . as much as i am a spurs fan. i agree :toast i just wish he could return to his form

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

"He's just living vicariously, through himself"

[lefty]

Oh no


Not that shit again.






Ok, Kobe, Wade and LBJ are all equally good.

[RsxPiimp]

offensively? yes. lebron nor wade can never touch kobe, but overall lebron is the best and wade is about even with kobe right now.



problem with kobe is he's stubborn and have horrible shot selection.


if he changes that, then yes i have no doubt he's going to be the best player in the league right now. but the dude has peaked imo.

[DrHouse]

I would say in this Rocket series Kobe has had very good shot selection.

When he takes the MIDRANGE jumper right above the F/T line it's pretty much a layup. This is with all world defender Battier draping him.

Kobe gets into trouble when he catches the ball at the top of the arc and has to create for himself. The Rocket D is too good to let him get to the hoop. This is when he starts chucking bad shots.

[RsxPiimp]

I would say in this Rocket series Kobe has had very good shot selection.

When he takes the MIDRANGE jumper right above the F/T line it's pretty much a layup. This is with all world defender Battier draping him.

Kobe gets into trouble when he catches the ball at the top of the arc and has to create for himself. The Rocket D is too good to let him get to the hoop. This is when he starts chucking bad shots.

agree. houston's defense was just pretty tight on kobe. amazing he still shot 47% in this series so far.


we'll see if he continues...



i respect kobe and his fire. but he's still a bitch imo.

[Bukefal]

hes good, but lebron is better overall. Anyway, even if he is great, his bitchness and arrogance makes him the worst of all time.

[lefty]

I would say in this Rocket series Kobe has had very good shot selection.

When he takes the MIDRANGE jumper right above the F/T line it's pretty much a layup. This is with all world defender Battier draping him.

Kobe gets into trouble when he catches the ball at the top of the arc and has to create for himself. The Rocket D is too good to let him get to the hoop. This is when he starts chucking bad shots.

I have to agree with you

[z0sa]

lebron james is the better teammate and leader. in terms of raw+honed skill though, yes Kobe has him beat. D-Wade is very close in the skill dept, however.

[Crabdribble]

But roy is better.

[TheMACHINE]

lebron james is the better teammate and leader. in terms of raw+honed skill though, yes Kobe has him beat. D-Wade is very close in the skill dept, however.

im curious to where the whole "better teammate and leader" arguement comes from. I can understand that when Kobe was trying to do everything himself after Shaq left...i just dont see that Kobe anymore.

[Donkeybong]

Kobe is the best player and most skilled, it will be proven in the Finals.

[z0sa]

im curious to where the whole "better teammate and leader" arguement comes from. I can understand that when Kobe was trying to do everything himself after Shaq left...i just dont see that Kobe anymore.

LeBron already has at 23, what Kobe took til 29 or 30 to get - and with a lot of bad decisions in the process. In fact, as an 'unbiased' observer, I would say Kobe's bad decision making cost you a title in 2004. Following up, in 08, he just couldn't will a team to victory 'skill-wise' - which is why i said D-Wade (2006 Finals MVP) is very close in terms of raw+honed skill.

[pauls931]

Skills didn't get him far without Shaq or Gasol.

[TheMACHINE]

LeBron already has at 23, what Kobe took til 29 or 30 to get - and with a lot of bad decisions in the process. In fact, as an 'unbiased' observer, I would say Kobe's bad decision making cost you a title in 2004. Following up, in 08, he just couldn't will a team to victory 'skill-wise' - which is why i said D-Wade (2006 Finals MVP) is very close in terms of raw+honed skill.

but doesnt the fact that Lebron was given a franchise to lead at 18 in which he had to carry the load right off the bat help in his leadership capaibilities. You have to understand that Kobe was drafted at the 13th spot and came off the bench in a team that was loaded with leaders already. In 2004, he had to share a team thats stacked with franchise players (Malone, Shaq, Payton). When everyone left in 2005, he had to learn from scratch what leadership was. He didnt figure it out till he got humbled when he didnt make the playoffs. Kobe now knows that he was spoiled and i think finally figured out that he has to be a good teammate to win it all.

[TheMACHINE]

Skills didn't get him far without Shaq or Gasol.

skills wont get you far without a complimentary player. Just like Steve Nash..this guy is skilled like crazy...thats why its kind of wierd that he coudlnt go anywhere with Amare and Marion, and now with Shaq. Thats just total fail and im sure you Suns fans admit it (unless if you're saying that Gasol>Amare+Marion).

[Allanon]

Skills didn't get him far without Shaq or Gasol.

No one player (that I can remember) has gone far without another very good player.

This is still a team game, 5 > 1 most of the time.

[pauls931]

No one player (that I can remember) has gone far without another very good player.

This is still a team game, 5 > 1 most of the time.

True, MJ had pippen. Today it seems like the trick is to have the right big man. Right now I think Gasol is probably the 2nd or 3rd best big in the league despite being soft. (I'll put Howard and Duncan ahead of him, not sure about shaq)

Regarding Marion, I miss him, but it's becoming clear to me his success is directly a result of the Dantoni system. He needs run and gun.

[TheMACHINE]

True, MJ had pippen. Today it seems like the trick is to have the right big man. Right now I think Gasol is probably the 2nd or 3rd best big in the league despite being soft. (I'll put Howard and Duncan ahead of him, not sure about shaq)

Regarding Marion, I miss him, but it's becoming clear to me his success is directly a result of the Dantoni system. He needs run and gun.

yah D'antoni's system will definately make anyone look good.

[The TroutBum]

If by "Skilled" you mean, "Sucks the meanest cock, and rapes the whitest women.", then I totally agree.

Go sodomy!

[TheMACHINE]

If by "Skilled" you mean, "Sucks the meanest cock, and rapes the whitest women.", then I totally agree.

Go sodomy!

Utah would be a perfect place for Kobe to stay in then.

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

LeBron already has at 23, what Kobe took til 29 or 30 to get - and with a lot of bad decisions in the process. In fact, as an 'unbiased' observer, I would say Kobe's bad decision making cost you a title in 2004. Following up, in 08, he just couldn't will a team to victory 'skill-wise' - which is why i said D-Wade (2006 Finals MVP) is very close in terms of raw+honed skill.

The only thing that Lebron has won at that age is an MVP, but at that age Kobe already had championships. And yes Kobe has failed in the finals twice but you can't really put all the bourden on him for the 04' lost. Last year you can cause he was supposed to be the leader. So Kobe and lebron have both failed in the Finals.

[ducks]

kobe is proving to me he really is a dirty player
and refs let him get away with it

[gaKNOW!blee]

How do you define most skilled?

Lebrons passing is clearly better and makes some of the best passes in the league. And his in game dunks are 2nd to none.

They're dribbling is pretty equal it seems, but Lebron can beat defenders to the rim more. Kobe is definitely better in midrange and hitting jumpers with defenders draped on him.

[pauls931]

If lebron wins the title, I'll say he's the most skilled player. He makes some very sick passes and has a lot less to work with than Kobe.

[DrHouse]

Lebron's career will be an inverse of MJ and Kobe. I think he will achieve some great things in the next 4-5 years as he reaches his physical maturity.

However, instead of aging like fine wine the way MJ did and Kobe appears to be doing, I think we will see the opposite. Without his athleticism he will not be anywhere close to the player he is now and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. His game is so predicated on the fact that nobody can stop him from getting to the rim that they have to concede 4-5 feet at least which gives him wide open jumpshots whenever he wants them. As soon as he is unable to get to the rim with the same ease players will defend him tighter and unless his shot really develops he won't be able to score at the rate and efficiency he can now. I don't see the footwork, I don't see the shot mechanics, and I don't see the complete all-around game in Lebron that I do/did in MJ and Kobe.

He is very young, and we could see him develop all of these things. However I don't truly believe Lebron is a student of the game and loves the game of basketball in the same way as MJ/Kobe. It seems to me he is most interested in marketing himself and furthering his own image more than anything else. Basketball just happens to be the avenue in which he can do so. In other words, if being an NBA superstar payed you peanuts I don't think Lebron James would have ever picked up a basketball.

[coldsweat]

Lebron's career will be an inverse of MJ and Kobe. I think he will achieve some great things in the next 4-5 years as he reaches his physical maturity.

However, instead of aging like fine wine the way MJ did and Kobe appears to be doing, I think we will see the opposite. Without his athleticism he will not be anywhere close to the player he is now and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. His game is so predicated on the fact that nobody can stop him from getting to the rim that they have to concede 4-5 feet at least which gives him wide open jumpshots whenever he wants them. As soon as he is unable to get to the rim with the same ease players will defend him tighter and unless his shot really develops he won't be able to score at the rate and efficiency he can now. I don't see the footwork, I don't see the shot mechanics, and I don't see the complete all-around game in Lebron that I do/did in MJ and Kobe.

He is very young, and we could see him develop all of these things. However I don't truly believe Lebron is a student of the game and loves the game of basketball in the same way as MJ/Kobe. It seems to me he is most interested in marketing himself and furthering his own image more than anything else. Basketball just happens to be the avenue in which he can do so. In other words, if being an NBA superstar payed you peanuts I don't think Lebron James would have ever picked up a basketball.

haha, insecurity abound in this post, you're basing everything on your intuition.

well based on your previous posts i'd say your intuition sucks.

[Unholy Turkey]

I don't know, he raises a good point, just look at McGrady.

(Not that I'm comparing LeBron's work ethic with McGrady's.)

[Rogue]

Lebron's career will be an inverse of MJ and Kobe. I think he will achieve some great things in the next 4-5 years as he reaches his physical maturity.

However, instead of aging like fine wine the way MJ did and Kobe appears to be doing, I think we will see the opposite. Without his athleticism he will not be anywhere close to the player he is now and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. His game is so predicated on the fact that nobody can stop him from getting to the rim that they have to concede 4-5 feet at least which gives him wide open jumpshots whenever he wants them. As soon as he is unable to get to the rim with the same ease players will defend him tighter and unless his shot really develops he won't be able to score at the rate and efficiency he can now. I don't see the footwork, I don't see the shot mechanics, and I don't see the complete all-around game in Lebron that I do/did in MJ and Kobe.

He is very young, and we could see him develop all of these things. However I don't truly believe Lebron is a student of the game and loves the game of basketball in the same way as MJ/Kobe. It seems to me he is most interested in marketing himself and furthering his own image more than anything else. Basketball just happens to be the avenue in which he can do so. In other words, if being an NBA superstar payed you peanuts I don't think Lebron James would have ever picked up a basketball.
yo aprobar totalmente. Lebron tiene solo musculo, su edad poder affact tu carerra mal.

[ALVAREZ6]

lebron is the most unstoppable. kobe is probably more skilled, but at the height and strength of lebron with his quickness, speed, leaping ability, and finishing....no is as unstoppable.

[KidCongo]

Lebron's career will be an inverse of MJ and Kobe. I think he will achieve some great things in the next 4-5 years as he reaches his physical maturity.

However, instead of aging like fine wine the way MJ did and Kobe appears to be doing, I think we will see the opposite. Without his athleticism he will not be anywhere close to the player he is now and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. His game is so predicated on the fact that nobody can stop him from getting to the rim that they have to concede 4-5 feet at least which gives him wide open jumpshots whenever he wants them. As soon as he is unable to get to the rim with the same ease players will defend him tighter and unless his shot really develops he won't be able to score at the rate and efficiency he can now. I don't see the footwork, I don't see the shot mechanics, and I don't see the complete all-around game in Lebron that I do/did in MJ and Kobe.

He is very young, and we could see him develop all of these things. However I don't truly believe Lebron is a student of the game and loves the game of basketball in the same way as MJ/Kobe. It seems to me he is most interested in marketing himself and furthering his own image more than anything else. Basketball just happens to be the avenue in which he can do so. In other words, if being an NBA superstar payed you peanuts I don't think Lebron James would have ever picked up a basketball.


It seems to me people only consider improvement as expanding your skill-set. What about the fact that James has gotten better in all the areas he was already dominant in?

He's added weight and explosion. He's infinitely better on defense. It's not remotely close. He's now a top notch impact player on the defensive end. His man d is well above average, his one-stop defense is elite, and his help defense is also elite. Because of his size, he's a better and more important defensive piece than almost any other perimeter player in the league. He rebounds better than some PFs and Cs now and even though he was always a great rebounder, he is even better. His leadership is impeccable. He doesn't make the same horrible clutch mistakes. He closes out games whereas he used to choke... frequently. He plays at a controlled tempo now. He is FAR better as a scorer. He can exert his will on a defender. In the past, James always tried to make the "right play". Now, if his team needs a bucket, he has a much better chance of just going to work and getting it.

You don't have to be like Kobe to be successful. You don't have to be the Mario of basketball (if that reference makes any sense). Kobe is very good at everything and other-wordly when it comes to his scoring skill-set. Bron is just another animal altogether. He isn't very good at everything and one can argue he isn't even "good" at some things. However, he is other-wordly in many categories. For a true perimeter player, he is a beast of a rebounder. He is in the conversation as the best passing SF of all-time. Outside of Michael Jordan, no player in NBA history can compete with LeBron's ability to go to the hole. These are things he didn't come into the league with. Yes, the potential was always there, but he REALIZED that potential with hardwork. People seem to take that for granted.

The numbers to back it all up:
Rookie year / This year:
PER: 18.3, 31.7
Assist%: 27.8, 38.0
Turnover%: 13.9, 11.0
Rebounding%: 7.6%, 11.9%
Steal %: 2.2, 2.4
Blk %: 1.3, 2.4
**% stats are the % of possessions that end in that result

FT shooting%: 75.4, 78.0
FG%: 41.7, 48.9
Points per 36 minutes: 19.1, 27.2

Last 5 mins of the game, score within 5
Points per 48: 29.1, 56.0
eFG%: 39.7, 66.1
FT%: 68.4, 85.4
Jump shot % (clutch situations): .320 eFG%, .463 eFG%

Now because it seems to be the thing that everyone harps on with LeBron, let's talk about his jumper:
Jump shot% in regular season, jump % in the clutch, jump shot % in playoffs, jump shot % in playoff clutch situations (all are eFG%):
'03-04: 35.6%, 32.0%, didn't make playoffs
'04-05: 39.6%, 35.3%, didn't make playoffs
'05-06: 41.7%, 45.7%, 37.2%, 30.6%
'06-07: 39.4%, 37.9%, 33.6%, 57.7%
'07-08: 39.9%, 45.2%, 31.9%, 20.6%
'08-09: 42.7%, 46.3%, playoff data not available yet

Another important ingredient to consider is how many of these shots he is actually creating himself
Regular season jumper % (% of these shots assisted):
'03-'04: 35.6% (46%)
'04-'05: 39.6% (42%)
'05-'06: 41.7% (28%)
'06-'07: 39.4% (30%)
'07-'08: 39.9% (30%)
'08-'09: 42.7% (29%)

As you can see, LeBron has improved his jumper EVERY SINGLE SEASON except ONE. He's getting FAR, FAR less wide open looks and is STILL making MORE jumpers than he did before. Obviously, his mid-range jumper is still the weakest aspect of his game, but it HAS gotten better every single year (except one).

I mean seriously, what do you guys expect?

Here are the same numbers for Kobe:
'02-'03: 44.0% (39%)
'03-'04: 40.6% (48%)
'04-'05: 43.2% (39%)
'05-'06: 46.3% (47%)
'06-'07: 46.7% (43%)
'07-'08: 45.7% (42%)
'08-'09: 46.1% (37%)

Bryant is obviously still CLEARLY the better shooter by quite the distance (3.5%), but he also has more looks created for him and always has.

Which brings to my next point about Bron's range, he hardly gets ANYTHING created for him in terms of open threes (comparatively). All his threes are basically pull-up, off the dribble and he still shoots near 35% at 34.4%. Don't tell me that the only that counts is whether or not it goes in. We all know that isn't true. And if it was, Bryant isn't much better at 35.1%.

LeBron isn't a pure shooter. I'm not even going to argue that. Neither is a guy like Trevor Ariza, but he can be pretty damn effective when left open and Bron is a guy who is another level entirely versus a guy like Ariza when it comes to the three ball; he can hit them off the dribble with people in his face.

Only 42% of LeBron's threes are assisted (64% of Bryant's are assisted). That is third lowest in the league just ahead of Steve Nash and Dwyane Wade. There are only 18 players in the whole league that get less than 70% of their threes assisted. The guys ahead of James on this list include: Nelson, Nash, Billups, Salmons, Gordon, Duhon, Brooks, Paul, and Bryant. He's right in the middle of the pack of those 18 guys. Out of the guys ahead of him, the only guys who don't have at least 20% more of their threes assisted are Duhon, Nash, and Billups. Nash is the only one with a lesser % of his 3s assisted, the other two have at least 12% more.

Bottom line on three-point shooting and 'Bron: he's underrated. If he got a ton of open looks like all these other guys do, he'd be pretty solid. In terms of pure results, his three was VERY comparable to Bryant's game this year and it wasn't because his shots were just that much easier; he took hard shots himself as the numbers prove. LeBron is above average as a three-point shooter in my opinion. Not great, but certainly good or close to it.

The ONLY, THE ONLY, missing piece of LeBron's game is that mid-range jumper. Once he masters that, it really doesn't matter. He still doesn't go to his post game very often; he even called it "boring", which insulted me, but he's a better scorer from those positions now than he was when he entered the league as well according to most Cavs fans. He's not great from that area, but it really doesn't matter with how strong he is. I expect him to develop that piece of his game as he gets older and slows a little. He may lose speed, but strength doesn't fade; he will get even stronger.

Hopefully I've done enough to explain the ten fold improvement I've seen in his game...

http://www.clublakers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=109842&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20#p2838284

From a Lakers forum and was brought up on a Cavs forum.

[DrHouse]

I guess to me the biggest flaw I could potentially see in Lebron's game is that he is not a pure shooter.

A lot of people argue that MJ wasn't a pure shooter either but I disagree. He always shot very well from the F/T line (> 80%). He just never honed his midrange game until he had to (i.e. when his athleticism faded). Kobe has always been aware that one day his athleticism will go which is why he spent so much time honing his complete skillset, and not just the things he was already pretty good at. This is why at the age of 30 Kobe is still considered an elite player. He barely finishes at the rim much anymore and yet can still drop 60+ pts on you....

I just don't see Lebron ever really honing a midrange game the way MJ/Kobe have. His career will mimic Shaq's more than anything IMHO. A few years of absolute dominance and then a tail off as his athleticism is robbed and he has to rely mostly on skill to score.