U.S. soldier in Baghdad kills four fellow troops before killing himself

[JoeChalupa]

CNN is reporting. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.violence/index.html

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. soldier in Baghdad opened fire on his fellow soldiers Monday, killing four American troops before killing himself, a senior defense official said.

Three others were wounded in the incident at the U.S. military base, Camp Liberty, in Baghdad, the official said.

The U.S. military issued a news release saying only that five coalition soldiers were killed Monday in a shooting at Camp Liberty.

The military did not give the soldiers' nationalities or provide further details.



This is a tragic story.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Wow...

[LnGrrrR]

Damn. That sucks.

How much you want to bet he probably had a probably had a previous diagnosis of PTSD and they sent him back anyways?

[Barry O'Bama]

Damn. That sucks.

How much you want to bet he probably had a probably had a previous diagnosis of PTSD and they sent him back anyways?

Good one Dr Phil

[LnGrrrR]

Good one Dr Phil

Sane people tend not to shoot their coworkers.

[Dr.Phil]

Good one Dr Phil

Leave me out of this.

[desflood]

How much you want to bet he probably had a probably had a previous diagnosis of PTSD and they sent him back anyways?
Spot on.

[mrsmaalox]

Damn. That sucks.

How much you want to bet he probably had a probably had a previous diagnosis of PTSD and they sent him back anyways?

And it was probably his 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th time over there!!

[Barry O'Bama]

Sane people tend not to shoot their coworkers.


Maybe he was just weak-minded not every man can handle the horrors of war.

[Wild Cobra]

Spot on.
Hmmm...

So the kids at Columbine and other such shootings had PTSD too?

The military is very large, and you have some unstable people who slip through the cracks. Nice we have so many professionals who never reviewed the case.

[Winehole23]

Maybe he was just weak-minded not every man can handle the horrors of war.Maybe you should sign up to take his place. Show those US troops how to be tough, fake Barry.

[FaithInOne]

I do not understand why people feel the need to take out others before giving up on life.

[FaithInOne]

And it was probably his 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th time over there!!

I know numerous soldiers who will continue asking to go back until they are physically unfit to do so.

[Summers]

The initial report is a little confusing, but I guess the details don't matter so much. Very sad story.

[mrsmaalox]

I know numerous soldiers who will continue asking to go back until they are physically unfit to do so.

Asking to be sent or volunteering, is different from being required to do so.

[Cry Havoc]

I do not understand why people feel the need to take out others before giving up on life.

Have you ever shot someone? Took an innocent's life just because they happened to be in the proximity of your target and you had to be sure that he was taken out? Ever known that you ended a life that had barely begun? Can you possibly comprehend what that would do to you?

Of course, this says nothing about how some troops feel that they're over there killing for oil (and fuck off about arguing politics here, the fact is that some troops absolutely feel that's why they're over there).

It's astounding to me how people can look at a soldier who's been in war and say, "I can't understand why he would do that."

My dad is the last surviving member of his company from Vietnam. Something like 25-30% killed themselves in the past decade, many died from health complications, and several just lost the will to live.

Newsflash: War is hell. It has a tendency to make men crazy.


I know numerous soldiers who will continue asking to go back until they are physically unfit to do so.

Yep! It's a fun place. Why don't you give it a try?

[FaithInOne]

Asking to be sent or volunteering, is different from being required to do so.I was not aware The United States had reinstated the draft.




In all seriousness, Can soldiers be honorably discharged if the plead PTSD or use some other excuse?

[Wild Cobra]

Asking to be sent or volunteering, is different from being required to do so.
Didn't you get the memo?

It's been long enough now that everyone who has enlisted or reenlisted knew the stakes.

[FaithInOne]

Have you ever shot someone? Took an innocent's life just because they happened to be in the proximity of your target and you had to be sure that he was taken out? Ever known that you ended a life that had barely begun? Can you possibly comprehend what that would do to you?

Of course, this says nothing about how some troops feel that they're over there killing for oil (and fuck off about arguing politics here, the fact is that some troops absolutely feel that's why they're over there).

It's astounding to me how people can look at a soldier who's been in war and say, "I can't understand why he would do that."

My dad is the last surviving member of his company from Vietnam. Something like 25-30% killed themselves in the past decade, many died from health complications, and several just lost the will to live.

Newsflash: War is hell. It has a tendency to make men crazy.


I completely understand the suicide angle. Good for you if you carry it out after coming to the conclusion it's your only option left. But to take the lives of others who have not given up themselves is bullshit.

If he wasn't just one of these weirdos who joins the armed forces to kill, I'd think he would have initially been a good enough man to leave other SOLDIERS out of his depression.

[Cry Havoc]

I was not aware The United States had reinstated the draft.




In all seriousness, Can soldiers be honorably discharged if the plead PTSD or use some other excuse?

Like most mental issues, a soldier will likely be discharged (honorably or basic) if they have PTSD.

However, it is difficult to prove, and like most mental disorders, it is usually not apparent to the person who has them. Anxiety disorders are likely particularly tough to tell, because they most likely interfere with basic instruction and orders, so the person who has it will attempt to do anything he or she can to cover it up. And since we're underfunded over there anyway, I'm sure the shrinks are few and far between.

[mrsmaalox]

I was not aware The United States had reinstated the draft.




In all seriousness, Can soldiers be honorably discharged if the plead PTSD or use some other excuse?

They can plead anything they want. All I know is that I am married to an Army psychiatrist, and when he tells me that he is no longer under pressure to clear for deployment soldiers who are PTSD, emotionally distraught, immature, drug dependent or psycho/socio-pathic, I'll believe it.

[ElNono]

Didn't you get the memo?

It's been long enough now that everyone who has enlisted or reenlisted knew the stakes.

I'm sure the families of those soldiers killed sleep a lot better now that they just read your post.

I just hope there's a thorough investigation to find out what are the causes of this tragedy.

[Cry Havoc]

I completely understand the suicide angle. Good for you if you carry it out after coming to the conclusion it's your only option left. But to take the lives of others who have not given up themselves is bullshit.

If he wasn't just one of these weirdos who joins the armed forces to kill, I'd think he would have initially been a good enough man to leave other SOLDIERS out of his depression.

Recruiters are pushed to enlist as many people as they can using any method they can. And it's surprising we get mentally unstable individuals committed to a war zone?

Again, I don't understand how you're attempting to rationalize the actions of a person who has no mental stability. They DO NOT ACT RATIONALLY.

[JoeChalupa]

PTSD is not something that is diagnosed easily and the government doesn't want to have to pay for benefits so some fall through the cracks. I'm not surprised some crack under all they have to deal with on a daily basis.

[ElNono]

The question is how often you do a psychological review to see which soldiers are fit for service.
It looks like not often enough.

[FaithInOne]

Recruiters are pushed to enlist as many people as they can using any method they can. And it's surprising we get mentally unstable individuals committed to a war zone?

Again, I don't understand how you're attempting to rationalize the actions of a person who has no mental stability. They DO NOT ACT RATIONALLY.

You're right. I know :depressed

You have to have hit rock bottom to break through that last barrier of killing others in a murder suicide.

[Cry Havoc]

You're right. I know :depressed

You have to have hit rock bottom to break through that last barrier of killing others in a murder suicide.

Here's the thing though... if you're a person who's mentally unstable (or even someone who's stable but has difficulty dealing with death), and you're in a war zone, do you really think there's that clear of a difference between killing the people next to you and killing people 200 yards away? Killing civilians happens in every war, but I would never want to deal with that. I don't know if I could. I'm sure the line would blur for me at some point too.

[FaithInOne]

Especially if he did begin to view the soldiers around him as nothing more than murderers of innocent iraqi civilians or mercenaries for oil.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's the thing though... if you're a person who's mentally unstable (or even someone who's stable but has difficulty dealing with death), and you're in a war zone, do you really think there's that clear of a difference between killing the people next to you and killing people 200 yards away? Killing civilians happens in every war, but I would never want to deal with that. I don't know if I could. I'm sure the line would blur for me at some point too.
Seemingly normal people in the civilian world kill other too.

Why should it be any different in the military?

[Winehole23]

Seemingly normal people in the civilian world kill other too.

Why should it be any different in the military?LockBeard suggested the soldier was a pussy. IMO CH wasn't picking on the military, but giving a little context.

[mrsmaalox]

The question is how often you do a psychological review to see which soldiers are fit for service.
It looks like not often enough.

A soldier may very well be initially fit for service, but after the experience of the war become unfit. The problem is in the follow up evaluations. Soldiers returning from a 12-15 month deployment are screened mostly like this: As their plane lands at their US base, they are handed a card asking if they feel they would benefit from counseling from a mental health professional. Check yes or no. Check no, and they will be in the arms of their loving families in a matter of minutes. Check yes, and they are detoured onto a bus to be taken to a mental health clinic and a possibly 2 week delay of being reunited with their families. So what are they most likely to check?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

A soldier may very well be initially fit for service, but after the experience of the war become unfit. The problem is in the follow up evaluations. Soldiers returning from a 12-15 month deployment are screened mostly like this: As their plane lands at their US base, they are handed a card asking if they feel they would benefit from counseling from a mental health professional. Check yes or no. Check no, and they will be in the arms of their loving families in a matter of minutes. Check yes, and they are detoured onto a bus to be taken to a mental health clinic and a possibly 2 week delay of being reunited with their families. So what are they most likely to check?

sounds like we need to scrap the asking and start doing

[Wild Cobra]

Check no, and they will be in the arms of their loving families in a matter of minutes. Check yes, and they are detoured onto a bus to be taken to a mental health clinic and a possibly 2 week delay of being reunited with their families. So what are they most likely to check?

Can you back that up?

Seems to me that would be counterproductive, and dealt with differently, like at the soldiers home base!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

you asked for it now.........

[mrsmaalox]

Can you back that up?

Seems to me that would be counterproductive, and dealt with differently, like at the soldiers home base!

No I don't have the policy in hand. Like I said earlier, I've been told this by someone who works in that field and treats these men/women on a daily basis.

And since when are we surprised at the counter productivity? ;)

[mrsmaalox]

you asked for it now.........

Hey. I've made it clear where I've gotten my information. I consider it a credible source. If someone doesn't agree that's cool, I'd love to get their information too.

[Wild Cobra]

No I don't have the policy in hand. Like I said earlier, I've been told this by someone who works in that field and treats these men/women on a daily basis.

And since when are we surprised at the counter productivity? ;)
That's a real big one. If that is policy, I would be really shocked. Only in a case where there is a perceived danger, such a thing should happen.

The military has a long history of the advantages and disadvantages of family. It would shock me if it's true in the way you laid out. I have never heard of such a thing in my 11 years of service.

[mrsmaalox]

That's a real big one. If that is policy, I would be really shocked. Only in a case where there is a perceived danger, such a thing should happen.

The military has a long history of the advantages and disadvantages of family. It would shock me if it's true in the way you laid out. I have never heard of such a thing in my 11 years of service.

It's shocking to me as well. But I'll tell you what, my husband's 20+ yrs in the field of Army psychiatry/behavioral health have been one continuous shock to him as well! :)

[Winehole23]

http://www.salon.com/news/special/coming_home/2009/04/09/ptsd/

[whottt]

I do not understand why people feel the need to take out others before giving up on life.

Anger....

[jack sommerset]

Blame Obama. He promised to get them out of there.

[Winehole23]

He sure did. But he didn't really mean it.

[jack sommerset]

I Know. I am not sure yet but I am considering when anything goes wrong to blame Obama and laugh. When someone says Obama did something right I will just call the person a fucking idiot and dismiss anything they have to say.

[Winehole23]

Up to you, jack. It's not too different from what you already do.

I might not have noticed the difference. Thanks for the heads up.

[jack sommerset]

I don't blame Obama for everything. Not even close.He is a liar and shitty President. He has no clue what he is doing. I the have to stop. I am late. Good day to you winehole!

[Cry Havoc]

Blame Obama. He promised to get them out of there.

2/10 for the trolling effort.

[Winehole23]

Good day to you winehole!Good day, Jack!

[SnakeBoy]

Ever known that you ended a life that had barely begun? Can you possibly comprehend what that would do to you?




Why are you bringing abortion into this?

[Barry O'Bama]

Maybe you should sign up to take his place. Show those US troops how to be tough, fake Barry.


I don't have to I'm the president of the United States. Now leave me alone I have to recruit my Brownshirts aka civilian defense force.

[jack sommerset]

2/10 for the trolling effort.

Exactly what I am talking about. Obama did say he would end the war in Iraq and this dumbass doesn't like the truth and he says I am trolling. I think I will blame Obama for everything to counter bungholes like the Havoc.

[Barry O'Bama]

Here's an update:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30678715/

[ElNono]

Looks like the guy didn't kill himself and he's in custody. He did shoot 5 of his fellow soldiers.

LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html?hp)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How anyone can hope to comprehend the reasons behind something like this is beyond me. Its impossible...

[Cry Havoc]

How anyone can hope to comprehend the reasons behind something like this is beyond me. Its impossible...

The kind of reason you are supposing implies rationale. Rationale implies logic. There is nothing logical about this situation, or any case where a man purposely kills allies.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The kind of reason you are supposing implies rationale. Rationale implies logic. There is nothing logical about this situation, or any case where a man purposely kills allies.

or takes his own life for that matter

[Cry Havoc]

or takes his own life for that matter

There CAN be a kind of logic in that. If someone is in pain, a great deal of distress with no end in sight, and wants to end that situation, there is reason in that, however malformed.

[LnGrrrR]

I know numerous soldiers who will continue asking to go back until they are physically unfit to do so.

Even so, if they are displaying signs of PTSD, they shouldn't go back over. Yes, even if they WANT to. That can be a sign/symptom of PTSD.

[LnGrrrR]

A soldier may very well be initially fit for service, but after the experience of the war become unfit. The problem is in the follow up evaluations. Soldiers returning from a 12-15 month deployment are screened mostly like this: As their plane lands at their US base, they are handed a card asking if they feel they would benefit from counseling from a mental health professional. Check yes or no. Check no, and they will be in the arms of their loving families in a matter of minutes. Check yes, and they are detoured onto a bus to be taken to a mental health clinic and a possibly 2 week delay of being reunited with their families. So what are they most likely to check?

Not to mention the near-universal stigma of mental disability in the Armed Forces.

[Cry Havoc]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. soldier fired on his fellow troops at a counseling center at a base outside Baghdad, Iraq, on Monday, U.S. officials said, killing five people in the worst such attack of the six-year-old Iraq war.

The shooting occurred at 2 p.m. at a stress clinic at Camp Liberty, near Baghdad International Airport, two senior defense officials said. Though initial reports indicated the attacker was killed in the incident, the U.S. command in Baghdad said late Monday a suspect in the killings was in custody.

Neither the suspect nor any of the victims had been identified, but a defense official with access to the latest reports on the incident told CNN that the suspect had been a patient at the treatment center.

"Any time we lose one of our own, it affects us all," Col. John Robinson, a U.S. military spokesman, said in a written statement.

President Obama said that he was "shocked and deeply saddened" by the "horrible tragedy."

"My heart goes out to the families and friends of all the service members involved," he said in a written statement. "I will press to ensure that we fully understand what led to this tragedy, and that we are doing everything we can to ensure that our men and women in uniform are protected."

The president said he discussed the issue in a meeting with Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Monday afternoon.

And Gates expressed his own "horror and deep regret" at a press briefing. Video Watch the defense secretary talk about the incident »

"If the preliminary reports are confirmed, such a tragic loss of life at the hands of our own forces is a cause for great and urgent concern," Gates said. "And I can assure you that it will get this department's highest priority attention."

Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, added the incident shows a need to "redouble" efforts regarding troop stress levels.

Camp Liberty is tightly guarded, and U.S. troops are required to clear their weapons of ammunition while on the base. The only service members who have loaded weapons are those guarding high-ranking officers and military police.

Monday's attack marks the sixth incident in which a service member was killed by a fellow service member since the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.

# In March 2003, Capt. Christopher Seifert and Maj. Gregory Stone of the Army's 101st Airborne Division were killed in a grenade attack at Camp Pennsylvania, Kuwait, that wounded 14 other officers. Sgt. Hasan Akbar was convicted by a court-martial in 2005 and sentenced to death..

# Sgt. Joseph Tackett was fatally shot in June 2005 by a fellow soldier in Baghdad. Lt. Willie Brown later pleaded guilty to a charge of negligent homicide and was sentenced to 30 months in prison, the independent Army Times reported.

# The same month, Capt. Phillip Esposito and Lt. Louis Allen were killed in an explosion at a base in Tikrit, north of Baghdad. The military charged a sergeant in their company, Alberto Martinez, with murder in their deaths, but a military jury acquitted him in 2008.

# Two U.S. sailors based in Bahrain, Seaman Anamarie Camacho and Seaman Genesia Gresham, were shot and killed by a third sailor who then shot himself in October 2007, the Navy said.

# A 39-year-old soldier was charged with killing Staff Sgt. Darris Dawson and Sgt. Wesley Durbin in Tunnis, Iraq, in September.

Camp Liberty is part of the Camp Victory Complex, one of the largest U.S. military bases in Iraq. It lies just northeast of Baghdad International Airport and is also near the massive al-Faw palace of executed former dictator Saddam Hussein.

Once known as Camp Victory North, the base was renamed Camp Liberty in September 2004, or Camp Al-Tahreer in Arabic, according to GlobalSecurity.org, a Web site that provides background on military and security issues.

Like other American facilities in Iraq, Camp Liberty provides a host of amenities for the thousands of U.S. troops who call it home during their combat tours.

The base resembles a giant trailer park, dotted with air-conditioned two- or three-person units that house thousands of service members. It boasts several dining facilities catered by a private company, fully equipped gymnasiums, recreation centers and a post exchange that rivals Wal-Mart.
advertisement

In recent years, a number of fast food restaurants such as Burger King and Pizza Hut have opened, as well as private stores and a bazaar that sells local wares.

The military set up several chapels, and each unit operates stress-relief clinics -- such as the one at which the shootings occurred Monday -- where troops can request counseling.

[Wild Cobra]

There CAN be a kind of logic in that. If someone is in pain, a great deal of distress with no end in sight, and wants to end that situation, there is reason in that, however malformed.
So is that why we have more crimes of this nature at schools?

[Rogue]

mercenaries.