Transition(ing) Offense

[Blackjack]

I brought this up in the "Think Tank" already, but it's the type of topic that should probably have it's own thread.


I really think this team should be looking to move into a somewhat "Showtime" style of play.

With Tony being one of the best open-court points in the league and Tim beginning to go the way of Kareem, it would not only benefit both of them quite well on the court, but it's also easier to fill in a roster with guys who can run the floor and defend on the cheap. Hill and Mahinmi would both thrive in a more up-tempo game and a guy like Gist might even turn into a poor-man's Worthy. (A very, very, poor-man's version:hat)

If I had it my way next year, the Spurs would have the Big 3, they'd keep a couple of veteran shooters and bigs with playoff savvy, and then fill out the roster with younger players who bring versatility and energy.

The Spurs' transition in personnel has obviously been a huge topic of conversation, but the transition with the offense, overall, hasn't garnered quite the same attention.

With Tony's ascension and Tim and Manu's inevitable descension, the team's style of play will obviously have to be tweaked; as will the type of role-players needed to fill in the roster.

The question is...

What's the best/most effective way to transition the offense, moving forward?

[GSH]

First step is a long course of electro-shock treatments for Pop.

[raspsa]

TD has to be a threat down low to draw doubleteams and free up perimeter players. Hopefully his health will allow him to do this. Manu will be settling for more jumpshots to preserve his body but maybe once in a while he will slash to the basket to keep defenses honest. It will depend a lot on who shows up for training camp to see if the Spurs have the tools to play uptempo or will settle for the more deliberate offense. I'm more concerned about the defense.. the Spurs seem to have lost some ground in that area.

[Blackjack]

First step is a long course of electro-shock treatments for Pop.

Somehow, I get the feeling Pop's not completely unfamiliar with the electro-shock treatments. (Well, at least with administering them.:hat)


TD has to be a threat down low to draw doubleteams and free up perimeter players. Hopefully his health will allow him to do this. Manu will be settling for more jumpshots to preserve his body but maybe once in a while he will slash to the basket to keep defenses honest. It will depend a lot on who shows up for training camp to see if the Spurs have the tools to play uptempo or will settle for the more deliberate offense. I'm more concerned about the defense.. the Spurs seem to have lost some ground in that area.

No doubt, T.D. will still be a big part of the half-court offense but that's what I was trying to get at.

I said somewhat like "Showtime", in that the offense would be up-tempo and when early offense wasn't there, they'd play through Kareem. I'm not foolish enough to think this team is basically going to pull a 180, in terms of offensive-style of play, just that it would probably be wise to head more into that direction.

Guys like: Ginobili, Hill, Williams, Gist, Mahinmi, Hairston, Sanikidze, etc. who are on the team or in the pipeline of the Spurs, are all the type of players that can rebound their position well and play passing-lanes to ignite the break. Of course, this would be a departure from Gregg "Winky" Popovich, but not as much the departure he had with his "offensive-lineup" from this past year.

Pop felt the need to get more "offensive" last year, even it meant sacrificing some defense, but I suggest he get more "offensive" on the defensive-end.

The counter-punching is getting tired.

[xellos88330]

Since "showtime" brings the NBA more fans, maybe it would be in the Spurs best interest to make the change.

I do not want to believe it, but the more NBA that I watch, the more it seems to be fixed in favor of the teams that have the larger fan base. I know it sounds stupid. Maybe I am just looking at things too deeply.

[Blackjack]

Since "showtime" brings the NBA more fans, maybe it would be in the Spurs best interest to make the change.

I do not want to believe it, but the more NBA that I watch, the more it seems to be fixed in favor of the teams that have the larger fan base. I know it sounds stupid. Maybe I am just looking at things too deeply.

An up-tempo brand of ball would definitely benefit the Spurs in at least perception outside of San Antonio, but it might be even more beneficial to Holt and co. to keep butts in the seat during the regular season.

It's really a win/win for the fans and team/organization, overall.

[raspsa]

I really miss the old Spurs teams that played ugly, hard-nosed defense. Other teams used to dread playing the Spurs because they knew it would be a struggle all game long to put points on the board. I think Spurs fans can appreciate that kind of play just as much as the uptempo game. Its just too bad the rules have changed to favor the offense over defense.

[Chieflion]

I think the team should run through the point guard, like the showtime Lakers of the 80s, then if the shot cannot be found, then look for Tim Duncan in the post. My biggest concern for this is the old guys on the bench and Ginobili.

[GSH]

I think the argument against that approach is the playoffs. And the poster children are the Phoenix Suns. If the goal is to win championships, the hard-nosed defense approach is tough to fault. I understand the concern that the league will continue to tweak the rules and the calls to the point that that style of play isn't viable. But I don't think we're there yet, by any means. Most of the Spurs problems with defense this season were personnel.

As for increasing the fan base? I'm not so sure that the Spurs could sell a lot more season tickets, or general admission tickets for that matter. And I think that most of the fan base outside of the area has come from two things - having international players on the roster, and winning championships. Maybe I'm wrong. I guess Phoenix attracted a lot of fans around the country with that wide-open D'Antoni system. It's exciting to watch. But I don't think a modified, cut-down version of it would have the same punch.

Being a fan, I'm sure your real wish is for them to win championships and maybe have HCA through the playoffs so we get to see the max number of playoff games in person. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this, but I think they could get a lot of mileage out of enlisting a sports psychologist like Bob Rotella. There are obviously personnel issues that need to be addressed, but they also need to learn how to keep their foot on the pedal when they have a big lead. Personally, I think that is something that a good sports psychologist could really help. Just like their free throw shooting, and some of those prolonged scoring droughts.

I think the Showtime offense would be fun to watch. Thinking about it, maybe it could re-energize the local fan base. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to switch places with the Phoenix Suns' fans for the last decade.

[kace]

that was exactly the offense of the suns this year.

there was some article on ESPN (and everywhere) about the "seven seconds or shaq" suns offense. either they found a way to score under 7 seconds on the clock of the possession or they'd go to shaq.

and their offense was very very efficient lately. but their defense killed them.

i would welcome this evolution for the spurs as lond as it's not too much. Pop has always liked his team to be under control.

[rascal]

The spurs should have played an uptempo offense all along. With Robinson and Duncan they would have still had a solid interior defense in duncan's early years. The other years they won there were no dominate playoff teams with a strong post player other than Shaq so an uptempo offense with Duncan would have been enough to win then. There was more than just one recipe for success for titles the spurs. They chose the defensive boring route when they could have chosen the more entertaining uptempo game and still won with that style.

Showtime has proven you can win that way as long as you have the best interior player in the game like the spurs have had the last 10 years.

[Blackjack]

I think the argument against that approach is the playoffs. And the poster children are the Phoenix Suns. If the goal is to win championships, the hard-nosed defense approach is tough to fault. I understand the concern that the league will continue to tweak the rules and the calls to the point that that style of play isn't viable. But I don't think we're there yet, by any means. Most of the Spurs problems with defense this season were personnel.

I'm, by no means, advocating for the Spurs to go the way of the Suns. It's just my assessment that going more up-tempo would be a wise way to go considering their circumstances.

The Showtime reference, was one more of the ability to fast-break and utilize Tim in the Kareem-role. Nothing more.

This team, as long as Pop is at the helm, will always be a defensive-team first and foremost, but that doesn't mean your offense has to be a grind-it-out low-possession one.

Think about a team like Philly.

Sure, the Spurs don't have the depth of athleticism to approach that level of up-tempo, but think about this. What if Philly were to lose a couple of miles on their fast break and were to add a couple of veteran shooters, and a dominant post-player to go through when forced to play in the half-court?(And, no. Elton Brand isn't Tim, even when healthy) I think I'd like their chances.

The Phoenix Suns' style of fast-breaking isn't all that conducive to championships, because of their inability to rebound or defend at the highest of levels.

I'm simply suggesting that the Spurs look to fill-out the roster with players that compliment the Big 3 in a way that would help transition the offense, moving forward.


I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this, but I think they could get a lot of mileage out of enlisting a sports psychologist like Bob Rotella. There are obviously personnel issues that need to be addressed, but they also need to learn how to keep their foot on the pedal when they have a big lead. Personally, I think that is something that a good sports psychologist could really help. Just like their free throw shooting, and some of those prolonged scoring droughts.

There's definitely a psychological aspect of this team that could be addressed, but I'm not sure how effective it would be with players that are so far down the road, set in their ways.

I wouldn't be totally against it, especially for younger players, but I'd worry about someone like Tim beginning to over-analyze situation's, to where it actually became detrimental to his and the teams' game.



that was exactly the offense of the suns this year.

there was asome article on ESPN (and everywhere) about the "seven seconds or shaq" suns offense. either they found a way to score under 7 seconds on the clock of the possession or they'd go to shaq.

and their offense was very very efficient lately. but their defense killed them.

i would welcome this evolution for the spurs as lond as it's not too much. Pop has always liked his team to be under control.

The Suns front-office tried to use the "Showtime"-rationale to sell the Shaq trade, but it wasn't all that realistic.

If they had a guy like Tim and a team that could play solid defense, it would have definitely been more feasible.

The reason I've been advocating for players like Sefolosha and McGuire, and hoping that a guy like Williams would pan-out, is that they are the type of players that rebound, defend, and bring versatility at both ends of the court. When your Big 3 consists of a big that's capable of running the floor and two guards that excel in the open-court, adding players like that to the equation would go a long ways in aiding a more up-tempo-style of play.

I realize the up-tempo-brand has taken a hit with the recent Suns and Mavs lack of championship success, but they were basically a one-trick pony.

If the Spurs can maintain their defense, just make it a little more aggressive, and still remain one of the better executing teams in the half-court?

That's the type of recipe that would allow a team to succeed, no matter when the games are played.

[portnoy1]

I think the team should run through the point guard, like the showtime Lakers of the 80s, then if the shot cannot be found, then look for Tim Duncan in the post. My biggest concern for this is the old guys on the bench and Ginobili.
it would not work to the spurs advantage. 1 - Magic johnson utilized the strengths of his teammates. He looked for worthy on the break / He looked for perkins in the post / he looked for Divac cutting to the basket and hit scott when he was double teamed in the post. 2 - Magic was 6-9 thats an advantage; not just because he can see over the defense but because he had a post up game to compliment his other skills. Parker doesn't play to the strengths of his teammates, He plays to his strengths and gets his points and then looks for his teammates when he gets doubled. when there is a switch off a picknroll tony does not look for tim. he doesnt run plays for good shooters like finley/Mason jr. to come off screens. He runs a one man fast break, no one else is involved. For the spurs to run their offense thru Parker/point guard Parker would have to sacrifice his game and be will to take less shots to get others involved. He is a scoring point guard, taking a few plays to look for your teammates and not shoot is awkward for parker. Pop has tried that a few times. He told parker to look for his teammates and not shoot first. The times parker did that, He didnt play well. He has to get his first before he can set up his teammates. I'm not trying to dog him or anything, I just want to make sure that everyone looks at him honestly STRENGTHS and WEAKNESSES.

[Blackjack]

Marcus Bryant earlier brought up a point that I eluded to in this thread, how the Spurs are now building with Parker as more of the focal-point, and one that I actually see might be coming to fruition.

The Spurs' offensive transition seems to be taking place right before our eyes.

With additions like R.J, Haislip, maybe McClinton, and the other players I mention earlier in this thread, the Spurs seem to be looking to be able to go more up-tempo. Tim being the best all-around, even if not the dominant offensive-player night-in and night-out, still means this team will continue to utilize him in order to remain title-contenders in the short-term, but the tweaks in how they go about it are surely underway.

The "Showtime" Lakers was a point of reference I used when posting this thread, not for the glamour or comparisons to Tony and Magic, (what it seems my friend portnoy1 got hung up on) but as a model that could very well be successful in today's NBA with an ageing superstar bigman like Duncan.

The rules have been altered to promote offense and benefit perimeter players on the whole. All things go in cycles and the fast-breaking of a fundamentally sound team (i.e one that defends and rebounds) would seem to prosper in this day and time.

So, you transition the offensive focal-point by finding players who compliment Tony more, yet you don't build solely around him because Tim still must be the cornerstone of your team to remain in the title hunt.

I don't expect to see a drastic change in philosophy, but given the age of Duncan and Ginobili, and the ascension of Tony, I think the Spurs might be looking in this direction after some of the moves and players they've acquired/targeted.

[ducks]

The spurs should have played an uptempo offense all along. With Robinson and Duncan they would have still had a solid interior defense in duncan's early years. The other years they won there were no dominate playoff teams with a strong post player other than Shaq so an uptempo offense with Duncan would have been enough to win then. There was more than just one recipe for success for titles the spurs. They chose the defensive boring route when they could have chosen the more entertaining uptempo game and still won with that style.

Showtime has proven you can win that way as long as you have the best interior player in the game like the spurs have had the last 10 years.

damm spurs should just hire you

[scottspurs]

I think the Spurs can play whatever style they want on a game-to-game basis. This season should be fun.

[VivaPopovich]

I brought this up in the "Think Tank" already, but it's the type of topic that should probably have it's own thread.



The Spurs' transition in personnel has obviously been a huge topic of conversation, but the transition with the offense, overall, hasn't garnered quite the same attention.

With Tony's ascension and Tim and Manu's inevitable descension, the team's style of play will obviously have to be tweaked; as will the type of role-players needed to fill in the roster.

The question is...

What's the best/most effective way to transition the offense, moving forward?

defend on the cheap? that's not Spurs basketball

with jefferson and hill and mcclinton we are able to run and gun more without completely turning into D'Antoni

[Blackjack]

defend on the cheap? that's not Spurs basketball

with jefferson and hill and mcclinton we are able to run and gun more without completely turning into D'Antoni

What?:huh

I'm sorry, I just haven't a clue why you're referring to D'antoni or, "not Spurs basketball..."

[HarlemHeat37]

It depends on our opponent..we're never going to be the Phoenix Suns though, because this team will still have a defensive mindset..tempo has nothing to do with title aspirations, that seems to be a misconception..you don't have to be a dominant defensive team to win a title, you have to have a dominant MIX of defense AND offense..

Pop is smart enough to know what to do..

I think we should play the same style, except with more opportunities in transition..with the new athletes on the team, there will be a lot more opportunities to finish at the basket..we've pretty much shed all the old, slow guys other than Finley..

Hopefully Duncan will be the same guy that he was pre-injury, where he was still dominant..

[Blackjack]

It depends on our opponent..we're never going to be the Phoenix Suns though, because this team will still have a defensive mindset..tempo has nothing to do with title aspirations, that seems to be a misconception..you don't have to be a dominant defensive team to win a title, you have to have a dominant MIX of defense AND offense..

Pop is smart enough to know what to do..

I think we should play the same style, except with more opportunities in transition..with the new athletes on the team, there will be a lot more opportunities to finish at the basket..we've pretty much shed all the old, slow guys other than Finley..

Hopefully Duncan will be the same guy that he was pre-injury, where he was still dominant..

I guess the point of the thread, besides an acknowledgement of the obvious, is that the Spurs don't play the way they do, because it's what they do.. They play the way they do, because it's how to best utilize their players in order to win.

Thus, as players evolve/devolve the formula has to change in order to maintain a certain level. Tweaks, not complete overhauls, (at least not yet) are needed if the Spurs are to extend their championship-window.


I've seen you post some very similar thoughts to myself in regards to how this team (for as great as Tony is and promises to be) will not be competing for titles once Tim's no longer the best overall player; 6' scoring point-guard's as the franchise player isn't all that promising a scenario, so the object is to find a way to get it done while Tim is still pretty dominant.

Obviously, Tim isn't capable of carrying the scoring load as consistently as he used to, so if you can score more in transition and off of easy opportunities, you ease the burden on him.

Going a little more up-tempo (and the Suns and Mavericks are not the model) helps the team as a whole and really benefits a player like Tony who's come into his own.

If you've got players like Duncan and possibly Blair, igniting the break with defensive-rebounds, athletic 4's doing their best Worthy impression, players like Ginobili and Jefferson that thrive in the open-court, and the one-man fastbreak, that is Tony Parker? Plus, Hill, Mason, and the SL players that may make the roster?

Not too shabby..

Again, "Showtime" did it the right way, and it could be done again.

One-trick ponies like Phoenix and Dallas, are just not comparable.

[drpill]

If you've got players like Duncan and possibly Blair, igniting the break with defensive-rebounds, athletic 4's doing their best Worthy impression, players like Ginobili and Jefferson that thrive in the open-court, and the one-man fastbreak, that is Tony Parker? Plus, Hill, Mason, and the SL players that may make the roster?

I am digging the Haislip acquisition more and more... I think that in a best case scenario he can be an awesome finisher on the fast break... Think about all the alley oops he and RJ could be on the receiving end of... Both guys are at their best with a playmaker feeding them the ball. Manu Ginobili is one of the best passers in basketball history, and it'd be great to see him averaging a few more assists per game instead of taking a pounding going to the rim himself all the time.

I think you're right that these kind of tweaks and adaptations are necessary to continue to compete as the team's most important players age and follow their basketball career trajectories. It really looks to me like Pop and company know this and have been working to acquire the players to do something a lot like what you're describing.

[Muser]

They can play whatever style they want if it brings home the gold.

[Chieflion]

Actually, high octane offense seems like a complete possibility now with Jefferson and some of our newest Spurs acquisitions. Remember, the Spurs beat the 2005 Suns with the high octane offense too.